E945 – Going Deeper with Dakota Mortensen
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Dakota, welcome to the Vile Files. Yeah, thank you. How are you? I'm doing pretty good, dude. Okay. We're very excited to have you. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Are you nervous? Yeah.

Yeah, I always get like nervous and then I feel like once maybe I like start going a little bit. Do you need a sip of water? I always do. Always do. I'm going to take a sip. You have that nervous cotton mouth. I can hear it. I can hear it in your voice. Dude, yeah, it's so weird. It's like the one thing. That's how I know when I'm nervous. Did you grow up in Utah? No, I grew up in Idaho. Oh, Utah. Yeah.

Yeah, there you go. Yeah. And I actually, I grew up on a farm too. So I lived like a, just kind of like a country life. It was, it was awesome. So what brought you to Utah? I actually, when I got sober, the last time I got sober, I think it was just hard for me to be in Idaho just during that time because like,

Everywhere I went, it felt like it was just trigger after trigger. It was like, oh, this gas station. Oh, this place. Everywhere I went. And so I kind of just got to this point where I was like,

I want to just leave and then just kind of have a fresh start. There's just too much history. Yeah, there's just too much history. And I love Idaho. Like, I love it there. But yeah, it was just something I think during that time, it was like the best thing I could do. Well, I'm, as we said, we're very excited to have you. Grateful to have you here. I was a little surprised when...

And maybe I'm assuming, you know, this, but I don't know if it was you or your team was more like, Hey, Dakota wants to come on and talk. Yeah. Which I'm very grateful that, you know, we get a lot of people saying, Hey, they want to share their story. Sometimes it's also us, you know, especially when it comes to people with the more maybe dramatic lives. Yeah. Sometimes there's a little reluctance to come on. So I, you know, that, so that part is true. You wanted, you wanted to come here. Yeah. Well, I think especially given like,

I'm I'm the type of person where I feel like I want like given the situation, even with the show, like it's really hard sometimes because like at the end of the day, I don't have really control of a lot of stuff, you know, that's like whatever it is about me. And so a big part of it was just like, I just wish I could kind of sometimes talk.

and show also who I am in ways because I just don't feel like I really get that. Yeah, so that's kind of how I feel about it. Okay, well, we're excited to have you and to give you that opportunity. I want to go back like we were talking about before and just kind of get to know a little bit about your backstory, which I don't think we know a ton about. You've been open about your addictions, but are people fully aware of just how heavy addiction

that period was and just the details of your substance abuse problem? No. And I think that's another thing too. That's a huge part for me as well is like,

I've always kind of wanted to have a voice just for even things like that, like things I'm like really passionate about or care about. And for me now, that is like a huge one for me because addiction is it's so huge, like especially right now, like almost every single person probably can relate. Like you have loved ones, family members, friends.

that have gone through that. And so for me, it's like, I enjoy talking about it and I get to sometimes like through social media and different things like that. And usually when I do it, like the, you know, the reciprocation I get back from it is absolutely wild. Like, you know, I'll be getting comments all the time that are like, just lost my brother, just lost my dad today. Like it just goes on and on and on. And so I,

Now, obviously, people know that I have a past with it, but I just don't think people understand the full extent of how bad I actually was. Yeah. So I guess if you're comfortable talking about it, at its worst, what substances were you abusing? Yeah. So for me, it started out when I was in high school. I was a big basketball player. I was a huge sports, like a jock.

And I had bad knees. And I remember I was at a practice once and my knees were hurting super bad. And I was in the gym and a kid was in there like for, I don't know, like doing like working out or something. He was just like one of my friends kind of.

And he like, I was complaining about my knees. I was like, my knees hurt so bad. And then he was like, oh dude, I have some pain pills. You want some? I had no idea. Like, I didn't even know what pain pills were. I was like, yeah, give me some. An Advil? Sure. Yeah, like I just, I didn't really understand it. And so I took them and then I went and practiced and

And I remember I had zero pain and like it was the best thing in the world. I was like, so right when practice ended, I text him and I was like, hey, whatever those were, get me as many of those things as you can. And and he wasn't even like a drug addict. He wasn't a drug addict or anything like he wasn't like selling drugs. Like I think he just like had some and he was just like maybe taking him like maybe experimenting himself. And so from there, I met up with him.

And we he said he's like, I know somebody that had surgery and he has tons of pain pills like and we could go get some. So I like went to this house and. How old are you? I was 17 or 17, I think.

Were you close with your family? Yes. You were? Yes, very close. Did it ever cross your mind to be like, hey, mom, how cool. I found this thing that my knee stopped hurting. Yeah, well, I think what happened was he eventually kind of told me a little bit more detail about him. It is kind of like a drug. But I think just because it was a pill and it was like, I don't know. I didn't see, I think, the

the bad side of that in that way or kind of like if a doctor would prescribe this to someone like can't be that harmful yeah I just either way 17 year old you it's crazy yeah didn't yeah yeah I just I had no idea and so we're there I'm pouring like handfuls of these pills dude putting them in my pocket and then that same kid was like I also hear that if you snort them they work better and

And so the second time ever, and it was more of a joke. Like it was like funny. Like we were like laughing about he's never done it. And so he's like, let's try it. And so we tried it. And I remember when I was driving home, that was like the first time I felt like a high, like, and I remember when I was driving home and I was like,

This is the best feeling in the world. Like I was like, this feels so good. Like I just felt like anything inside of me was just like gone. Like I felt very like just I was like, I don't really care about anything right now.

And from there, it just, it just progressed really fast. Like I, you know, I eventually just got to where I started getting those as much as I could. And like my personality at the time, like I was, I was friends with everybody. So it was like, I was friends with the skater kids. I was friends with the drug addict kids. I was like, so then that branched out, you know, because then some of the drug addict friends of mine, I was like, Hey, can you get me some of this stuff? And they're like, yeah, we can.

And then like, and then it bumped to oxy. And then from oxy, you know, you can go up in the milligrams of those. And then like before I knew it and I had no idea that I remember I was in class and over the intercom, it's when like, uh, the pill epidemic was like getting really bad. They announced it over the intercom and, uh,

They were saying like, hey, you know, just like talking about like how addictive it is and how how bad they are. And I remember I was like sitting there. I was like, well, I'm kind of scared right now. And so I remember right after that, I was like, I'm not going to do it anymore. And I tried to stop.

And I was like, I couldn't like already. I was like, I couldn't stop. And what was the feeling you had when you how long did you stop for a day? Not long. Yeah, it was like it was like maybe like a day or two. So what was the feeling that made you stop?

want to do it again. Well, that's the thing is it's the, that was the addiction part of it. And if you don't understand addiction, like, like, and especially for me being so young, like I didn't know, like all of those symptoms of like, uh, you're going to, you know, your body's going to crave it. You're like, your mind starts to change. Like it's, it's telling you like, Hey, you need these, or you start to justify it to you really start to justify everything of being like, it's not that bad.

Like, you're good. Like, you can keep doing it. You're fine. I can always stop. Yeah, yeah. Like, that's kind of what it felt like. I was like, I'm fine. It's not like doing anything to me. And then, yeah, and then I just started doing like, you know, different things like that. And then I started, I had a buddy that eventually told me you could smoke them off of tinfoil. And...

That changed everything. Who gave you this tutorial? How did you learn to do this? Another drug addict. Wow. And was he the same age as you? He was actually, he was a year younger than me. And you want to know the crazy part? His mom walked in on us doing that and his mom was okay with it. What? Yeah. Like she never said anything. And I still to this day, when I think back sometimes on that story, I'm like,

That was crazy. Like that they just kind of were like, okay with that. And the cool thing is that kid, he's sober now. His mom's sober now. I think his whole family is sober, which is, it's like a miracle. It's really cool because he was really bad too. And he went down a really dark path as well. Yeah. Once I started smoking them and then the cost for these pills was

It got so crazy. You were spending... They were selling... Because eventually, yeah, people stopped giving him... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It got to a point where they were selling him for $50 a pill. Wow. And so...

It's a lot of money. And, you know, during this whole time, like... How are you making money at this point? Working. I always worked. Like, I was always working. I was construction. You name it. Like, I was always... And it was always manual labor. Like, just growing up in Idaho. Like, I was always doing... At this point, you're high working manual labor. Yeah. So, I was high all the time. Did anyone... Like, what did your parents...

Start noticing a change in your behavior or a lawyer started noticing a change in your behavior? Yeah, the funny part is the first time I smoked weed ever in my life, I got caught by my parents because I was so high and I had no idea what it was like. And these stoner kids I was with just kept telling me that it's your first time, you're not going to get high. So I'm just like taking these bong rips and

Is this before your pill addiction? I think it was right in the beginning phases of it. And then I was like, I'm going to try weed. And I was so high in there like, ah, dude, you'll be fine even. You got like three hours. You won't be high or something like that. Two hours till you're back home. I came back home and I couldn't even, I couldn't talk. My dad saw me.

And it was like an instant, like, what is wrong with you? And I remember he was yelling at me and I was laughing because I was so high. Like, I just thought it was funny. And so it was crazy because when I look back at everything, it really was a blessing with my family because they caught me with pills really early on as well.

And so they knew almost from the start of when I started everything that like I was like kind of like starting to dabble with some of these things. And then from there went to heroin because then oxys were so expensive. Heroin was a little cheaper, similar highs.

So you just transfer. And a lot of people do this. And at that point, like what is, if you remember, like what is your brain telling you? Because like for me, like I'm the kid. Yeah. Dare worked. Right. You know, I was like, yeah, I don't want to turn green, man. Like I'm, I'm, I didn't do drugs in high school. So like, obviously you had a different mentality, you know, to me growing up, it's just like, you know, yeah, maybe kids smoke weed, maybe kids drink, whatever, even the crazy kids, you know,

Might've tried cocaine, but then it's like heroin is like, don't that's that'll kill you. Yeah. Did it even like register what you were doing? You know, it, it registered a little bit because when I first, I believe the first time that I got it.

And when you start going into like that world of like the heroin meth side, you start to like truly walk into houses that are just weird. Breaking bad. Yes. Like it's really, really sad. Like I remember being in a lot of houses where my heart would like break for just what was going on, which is so weird because like I'm sitting here using these drugs, but I'm also looking at the situation and being like,

This is crazy. I should not be in this house. But didn't dawn on you that like that was your next destination? No. And, and what's crazy is I, yeah, the first time that I got heroin, I remember the people that I got from, they were shooting up heroin and watching that was so scary to me because like, you know, it's an instant thing. Like, it's like, they'll just go like this and it's, they're, they're just gone.

And that really scared me. And so I remember when I saw that, I told myself, if I ever shoot up, I'm gone. Like, I just knew that was the thing. And I've heard like when you go to needles to quit is it's 10 times harder. And so I kind of always made that promise to myself to where I was like, I'm never going to shoot up.

And so I was just still- So you started smoking. Yeah, so I was just smoking it. Do you feel like that was probably the most memorable moment you have of like being scared while in your addiction? You know, there was a lot of moments because I think with addiction, especially when you're trying to quit, I mean, you're hitting rock bottom a lot. Like there's so many times, I can't tell you how many times where I would be like,

Oh yeah, I'm done. Like, I'm not going to do this anymore. Like where I'd almost overdose. Right. Like, and I got rushed to the hospital one time, like, and I, you know, I just think I kept having these moments and that's where like the power of addiction is.

and how hard it is to quit, it's so wild. I mean, it is your whole life. When you wake up in the morning, it's the first thought in your head. When you go to bed at night, it's the first thought in your head. So your whole life becomes just chasing this high. That's all you're doing every day, 24-7. And you will do anything to get high. What was the craziest thing you did? The craziest thing? Hmm.

I mean, I mean, I did, you know, I mean, I'm like judgment free zone. Yeah. Thank you guys. I appreciate that. I mean, like I, I stole a lot. Like your mom's thing. Yeah. I stole a lot of stuff from my parents and like would pawn stuff off. I remember we would do this thing. One of my buddies learned that like, like a big thing was tools like power tools.

If you like a lot of people, you could get a lot of money for them. So I had a buddy that learned a trick where you could go into these stores. We do it at Walmart even. Sorry, Walmart. Sorry, Home Depot. And I think they changed it now because of it. But you would go in, you would grab a tool or something, and then you would walk straight to the return place. And some of the places would return it without a receipt.

And then they would give you money for it. So like I would, I would go with a buddy. We would walk into Walmart. He would go and grab all of these, like, oh, I can't even remember what they were at the time. Like, and we would just walk straight to the, to the return thing. And they would exchange that for cash. And you would take that cash and go straight. And then go straight to there. Yeah. Wow. And so. What's the most dangerous thing you've done to get money?

I would say just like breaking into cars. I never broke into any houses. I had a few buddies that would do that. I was always... I'm from Idaho. Everybody's got guns. So like I was always like... I was like, I'm not even going to risk that. But yeah, I would say it was just more things like that. I always tried to not...

Go to the next levels of what some people were doing. Like you hear stories about like sex work and things like that. Oh, dude. Yeah. So sometimes this has happened. Nobody's going to believe me when I tell this story, but like there would be a, like sometimes like girls would be like drug dealers.

And when you're really hurting and like, they would call it like, sometimes like it's like dry, they would say it's dry. And that would mean like, nobody can get like this. It's really hard to get like, there'd just be like a dry moment where all the pills were gone. Inventory's low. Yes. Inventory's low. And so you'd be hitting up so many people to try to find things. And, and when you're withdrawing and you're, you know, you're just like,

There was like some girls that were drug dealers and they would like always offer me, like if I slept with them, that they would like give me drugs. I said no. Okay. I never said yes to any of that. But like, I think just... I'm assuming...

No judgment to whoever these drug dealers are, but I imagine these were people that weren't getting laid and they saw a handsome young man. I get what you're saying. No one's going to believe this because usually it's the other way around where men are the ones always trying to get some sex. Yeah, exactly. And I think maybe that's what it was, but you know what? I can almost promise you a lot of those girls were getting sex from lots of other men that were willing to do that because- Wow. Yeah.

Yeah. When you're, again, when you're withdrawing, how did you turn a corner? Like what, what was the moment where you started realizing that,

There's a huge problem and you started getting the help that you needed. Yeah. So I had a high school sweetheart and I, yeah, I like, I love this girl. It was like my first love. And I, I was actually at a point where I proposed to her and I was going to get married and I,

Everything you do is always, if I get married, I'll stop. If I do this, this is where I'll stop. And so I kind of put that in my head once I was engaged to her that I was like, I'm not going to use once I get married. Did she know about your addiction? She knew about it, but...

She didn't understand it. And nobody did. Nobody understood it. My family didn't understand it. Nobody understands it. When you say understand, they didn't know you were taking heroin? Or did they? No. She had no idea that I was using heroin. And she had no idea how bad I really was as well. And so it was just like... Yeah, it was one of those things where I thought...

Like just by getting married that maybe that would stop. And I remember when I was going to my wedding, it was going to be my last hurrah before I stopped. And before I left, we were like, we should use one more time. Who's we? Like some of my buddies. And so I am in my...

Like, you know, I'm your suit. Yeah. Like I'm getting ready to go do this wedding day. Yeah. It's a wedding day and I am trying to get drugs.

And I remember I was supposed to be there at a certain time. And I was like late, like I wasn't late, late to the wedding or anything, but like meaning like I was late to where I should have been there a lot earlier and doing these things because drug dealers don't care. They're just like, what? Like, so I remember I showed up and yeah, so I, I use there and that was actually fentanyl.

that I used there. And, you know, that was kind of the, that was my thing. I was like, yeah, this is, I'm done. Not going to use anymore. Blah, blah. It took using fentanyl on your wedding day to get you to stop? Nope. Nope. Nope. Didn't stop there, guys. Wasn't that. Because I'm not married now. Absolutely. Did you ever get... You ran it back. You got married. I got married. Okay. Yeah. So...

I ended up getting married and she was like such a sweet girl. She was like the sweetest girl ever, like very just like innocent. I would imagine she did not deserve that version of you. Oh, absolutely not. And I think that's why it was so sad was because it's like during this time, I'm going through all of these like weird emotions and things.

But again, I still don't understand what's happening to me. It's like your whole brain chemistry changes. It rewires your brain. And so everything, I couldn't see actually how bad I was. And then we got married. And then this was the craziest part. We end up getting a house, okay?

When we move into the house, we're moving into it. I am driving to the house. There is a guy or I should say a kid that is right next door mowing his lawn. And that kid was my drug dealer. I had no idea. And so when I got out, he comes over to me and he's like, what are you doing? I was like, I'm moving in here. And he's like, oh, dog. He's like, if you ever need anything at all, let me know. I got you. No.

And I was like, this never ends. And so I remember she was actually going, she was working towards being a nurse. So at the time she was a CNA.

So she was working nights. And so, you know, that whole dynamic is really weird, right? Because it's like she's sleeping during the day and then like, you know, gone at night. And so I remember I held off for a while and then and not long, but I held off for a little while. And then I remember he hit me up one night and I was like, OK. And then I went over and

And then... How old was he? He was probably like two years older than me. Okay. Yeah, so I think we were like 20... He was like 24. I was like maybe...

22 or something like that. Yeah. And at this point you're taking fentanyl, heroin, meth. Yeah. This was still more heroin here. Fentanyl came in a little bit later. I was doing fentanyl patches at the time because fentanyl wasn't like, it didn't come in yet like it is. And so that's when, yeah, it was mostly just heroin. And then like the fentanyl patches are like, we would get those from cancer patients, by the way.

Like we would find people that were dying from cancer and they would sell all their drugs to people to make money. And yeah, which is really sad. And so, yeah, I remember like just and like that that whole thing was like weird, too, because I didn't even know what fentanyl was.

at that time, but it knocks you out. It's so crazy and it can last for a long time. So how long were you married? I was married for a year and a half. And you were abusing drugs the entire marriage? Yeah, I was abusing drugs the whole marriage. Have you ever apologized to her? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I did. And it was really hard. That's the part that I think

That was something that clicked into me later when I was like in my first rehab is you don't understand the damage you cause other people. Like even my family, for example, you just don't, you're not thinking that way. Like you're so selfish and stuck in your ways of just, it's all about you. Cause that's, that's like almost all you can think about is just like, get high, get high, get high.

So when I got sober, I remember there's this point where it like hit me like I had just this. It was like a moment of clarity.

And I just remember thinking about my family and like at the time I had a little sister, there's a big age gap between us. I've always wanted a little sibling so bad my whole life because I was the youngest out of my family. Yeah. Just seeing how much pain I caused my whole family and just people that's like, yeah, that almost like hurt me way more. Cause like for me, you don't care about yourself. Like I didn't care if I died, I didn't care about anything.

But when I got sober for a little bit, it was just kind of seeing how much damage you cause other people and how much they went through. And like, thank God my family is like,

They stuck by my side through everything and they did not have to do that. Like they could have given up on me a million times. Does it hit you a little harder now that you have your own son? Yes. And you can't imagine like losing him. Yeah. That's where, uh, that was a really big transformation for me because I have always wanted a family my entire life. I actually, I wanted a girl first. That,

that's what i wanted first for some reason i wanted a girl more than anything um and i'm i mean i'm so it didn't matter but i'm just saying like i was like oh yeah i was like i want i want a little girl really bad but when i had him that was like the uh cool the gosh damn dude i can't even talk about him half the time yeah that just i gotta stop being a bitch you know because you're human it was uh

Yeah, it was just cool to kind of have like a full circle moment there, like because I never knew I would even be alive. And yeah, and then just the amount of love and that I would do like anything for him. And, you know, it even it even shifted my perspective even to my family. Maybe that's how it was for you guys, too, a little bit like that.

You kind of even see the side of like, you know, I don't know what your dynamics are like with your parents, but like you can kind of you kind of understand like the caring part of that, of like how, you know, when you're growing up, like if your parents are hard on you or, you know, they're like doing these things or they're like showing you how much they care and you're just like a punk kid, you know, whatever. I know what I'm doing.

It was, you know, that even changed. It was like a really cool experience for me to just kind of have that to be like, oh, I get it. Like, you guys were just doing your best too. You just loved me unconditionally and you guys were just trying your best. And it's like, and I feel like no parent obviously does it perfect, but

they definitely were just doing their best, you know, like. Do you have, and maybe this is something that like you'll use whenever it gets a little bit older, but like advice, I think for any parent, one of their biggest fears is like, I hope my child doesn't grow up to become a drug addict. Like, how do I keep, there's like the scare tactic. There's like, how do you think from your perspective, like parents,

parents should go about keeping drugs out of their children's life? Yeah. Well, I think a big one is I would always be paying attention to their friends. I think friends are a really huge thing. It's kind of just like who you surround yourself with. You're going to eventually kind of

start doing what they're doing. I think that's a big one to keep an eye open for. Obviously, if you have prescription drugs in your house, I mean, if you don't need them anymore or if you do need them for certain things, make sure you lock them up, hide them. But I think the biggest part would be

To really allow your kid to feel like they have the trust to come to you and talk to you about anything with absolutely no judgment and just knowing that they want what's best for you and that they're going to help you. Totally. Because I think that was really hard for me. For some reason, I was always so petrified to talk to my parents about how awful I was is what it felt like. I also imagine there's a level of...

I think most parents, and I don't know how your parents felt, and maybe you had conversations with them since, but I imagine there's a lot of parents out there

who feel like they're good parents and they have a good kid and they just like, just wouldn't just never imagine their kid doing stuff like that. So you, they almost take for granted not, not to assign any blame, but like you just being diligent enough to know that like you, you always have to like assume these risks, you know, because once your kid like leaves the safety of your home, the world, um,

has access to them. The world doesn't have the same love and consideration for your kids out there. And bad things can happen fast. And to just be mindful of that and not just as, you know, I think as parents, we want to assume like, yeah, my kid's the best. They would never. And I raised them well. And it's like, it might not have anything to do with it. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, if you were to look at my family, you'd be like, what happened to you?

Like, like not, but just meaning like, yeah, like. Yeah. You assume, I mean, if you just hear your story, people are naturally going to assume that you came from the wrong side of the tracks, so to speak. A hundred percent. And what's crazy even is when I was going in these like trap houses and

These these straight junkies would look at me and be like, what are you doing here? They would tell me that they're like, you don't belong here. I would have I had multiple drug addicts, straight, just junkies that they got to a point where they cared about me enough to where they would stop selling me drugs.

Because they would be like, this is not who you're destined to be. You're not this. True. And I always remember that because I thought that was so weird that people would even say that to me. Like, especially, like, just being like that. Because, you know, I always had to try to put on, like, a, you know, almost an act of looking like, you know, whether it was around, you know, my family or just people. Like, I came from a small town, so...

I always tried to fit apart to where it looked like I was okay. And in reality, I wasn't.

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this really cool experience. Uh, it was just like a really, I don't know. It was very, for me, it was a very godly, like just spiritual experience for me. But I remember I was, I was hurting so bad because I was still using and I just felt like such a crappy person. Like I just hated myself so much. And I remember I, uh, I said a prayer and I was like, Hey,

And at this time, I kind of like, I didn't even know if I believed in God anymore. I was just kind of like out of that hole. Like I was like, I don't even know anything. I don't really care anymore. And I was like, I'm going to just try to say a prayer and see what happens. And I said a prayer and I was like, if there's anything you can do right now, just like, just please, like I need help so bad and I need something to happen that will just

change and right after I said that I had a cousin that I haven't talked to like since I was a little kid and he was a Junkie for like 25 years 30 years and then he was sober. He ended up getting sober. He worked at a rehab place and He randomly out of the blue shot me a text like right when I was done praying and he sent me like a scripture and

And then I just thought that was kind of weird. And so like, I, I remember texting him just being like, Hey, I'm, I'm actually like, I kind of feel like I need help right now. And then he like texted me back stuff, but then I, I blew him off. I was like, I don't know, whatever. The next day, um, this was Christmas Eve. I was, uh, with my wife, we went to like a movie. I came home and

And I was going to get drugs. And how I used to do it when I was married was I would... This sounds so bad. This is so shitty. Like such a shitty person.

And then I would have like the, my like drug dealers, they would drop off drugs in my mailbox and then I would go out to the mailbox and get them and then like come back inside and like get high. You're like pretending to go get the mail. Yeah. Yeah. Or I just like sneak out and go grab it real quick. And then she was in her bathroom and I went into the other bathroom and locked the door and

And I was like getting ready to, you know, I was like getting ready to do it. And she grabbed the key, unlocked the door and opened it with me using. And it was like the most craziest experience because she was just broken. Like she was broken. And the saddest part is I was so numb.

I felt nothing, not a thing. Like in that moment, I was just like so numb. And then the drugs that I had, I took it, hit it real quick, wadded up like the tinfoil, threw it in the toilet because she came back in and was like, where are they? Where are they? And I was like, it's in the toilet. Like watch, I'll flush it. Flushed it. But I kept the drugs. And then she called my family. My family came and picked me up. And then...

When I was driving home, I like even just driving home, like I remember I was like I was like sitting on the door. I was just like so out of it. And I was like this close from just like opening the door and just throwing myself out the truck. Like I just was like, I want to just throw myself out right now. Got home and I was at my parents house for a while. And then like the next day she like came over.

essentially said she's like, hey, like I'm gonna get a divorce. And oh, and by the way, during this time I was in rehab. So I checked myself in rehab. Like I did go to her and I was like, hey, I'm struggling. I gotta get help. I don't know how to do it. And I managed to get help. And when- So she caught you after she thought you were in rehab. Yes. And then from there, I remember there was this point where I was like, this is where I was gonna kill myself.

And I went, I bought like a gram of heroin and I was just like, I'm going to just shoot up and I'm going to just try to kill myself. Like, this is where I'm like so sick of this life. Like I, I just, I don't know how to stop. I don't, I like can't stop. It felt like it was just, I could never stop. And when I did that same cousin called me and he said, Hey, I'm going to come pick you up.

I'm going to get you into my rehab that I work at for free and I'm going to come grab you. And there was just this one, there was like a brief moment where I just said, okay, I was like, I'll try it one more time. This will be my last time. I was like, if this one doesn't work, I'm done. Like, I'm just going to kill myself. I don't like doing this anymore. And, uh, went and I like moved away when I was going through withdrawals and like just going through all of that, like detoxing from, uh,

I got served papers and like did the divorce thing on top of it. Like, and that was just so hard. It was so hard to go through that because like when you're getting sober, you're having so many, like do the emotions and everything that are just like,

It's just like endless. And yeah, and then I just went through all of that. And then right when I finished there, I was there for four months, drove back home, packed all my bags and left the next day to Utah and moved to Utah and then never moved back from since I've been there. Wow.

In rehab, isn't there like a drug that helps heroin addicts? Yeah, it's like methadone. Methadone, yeah. Were you on that? Nope, no. You like cold turkey, nothing? Yeah, I cold turkied it. And the crazy thing is, is when I was in Utah, I actually was sober for close to like four and a half years, five years.

So I was actually doing great. Like I was actually like super happy. I was just like loving life again. I never got to really enjoy life. It almost felt like I just like felt like I missed out on everything. You never got to do anything. I ended up having a relapse and it was fentanyl. And then I started using fentanyl.

After four years of being so. Yeah, I went back and that that one goes on. That one was over. Now it's been over three years and it was so hard. Like fentanyl was a whole game changer.

In a bad way. Yes. Thank you for clarifying. Yes, it was not in a good way. It was so hard. Even from heroin to that, the jump from that to that one, it was so tough. And so I eventually got to a point there where I was like, okay, I'm going to have to do something here to get clean. And the cool part was because I had such a long period of time where I was sober, I knew...

like, how it kind of worked at this point. I understood addiction a little bit better. I had, like, the knowledge. And so what I actually did, it sounds weird, but I did it just for myself, too, so that I could see. But I wanted to, I actually documented a lot of that period of time for myself to watch what it did to how much it changes you. When I watch back on some of those videos, like, it would blow your mind. Like,

Your whole thought process changes immediately. I was so positive and just happy. Even if I didn't have anything, I was just happy. I was like, I don't need anything. I can enjoy life. I'm just happy to be alive.

And it went straight back to like, I hate myself. You're worthless. You're never going to do anything. So it was crazy to just see how much the drugs do impact that side of things as well. So how were you able to kick that? Um, I,

I decided that I was like, the only way I can do this is if I just... So at the time, I was living in Idaho again for a little bit. It was during the pandemic. Was that when you relapsed? Yeah. Do you think that had something to do with it? Yeah, it had to do with that. And then I moved in with one of my best friends at the time that just got out of prison. And he ended up relapsing. And then I was living with him. And then that's kind of how it just...

It was a slippery slope there. So what I did was I got a hotel in St. George. So it was like a nine hour drive. And I drove all the way to St. George and locked myself in a hotel for five, six days and just walked.

just went through the gnarliest withdrawals and was just in bed shaking like like sweating throwing up like it was uh what made you like have that revelation because like what you just described yeah isn't easy no like the fault i mean at any point you could have just walked out yeah hotel room i think it was just that i think it was a part that i knew i could finally see that

I knew all of the beliefs in my head at that time were lies. It wasn't real. It was just like, I knew it was just the drugs. It was all the drugs just like changing how I'm thinking. This might be a bad analogy because I don't know what it's like to be an addict. First time I got my heart broken, I didn't think I could get over it. Mm-hmm.

Because I had never been in love before. And so like the things I told myself about love and my inability to get over it were based off the premise that I was like, I can't get over this because I had no playbook. Yeah. Second time I got my heart broken, could argue it was more painful than the first time given the stakes. But what I knew, the only difference was, is like...

I know I can beat this. Yeah. Is that kind of similar to what you're describing? Yeah, that is actually... Yeah, that's a great analogy. Like, I feel like that's kind of what it was like for me. And even though it's really hard still, right? Like, it's like, there's always now... There was that piece of hope. I at least had the hope of knowing that I'm like...

No, this doesn't have to be it. Yeah. Like this, this doesn't have to be it. Like I can still, I can still do this. And I told myself, even if I went and did this thing, that if this didn't work, I would check myself into a rehab. So it was kind of just my last effort to try to do it on my own.

and to see if I could do it and yeah from there I went back home I moved out of the place I was staying with my friend and he actually went straight back to using and uh and then I uh

moved in with my parents and then I started doing like I think I maybe for like because it was still I was still like hurting really bad like just even like the withdrawals it still lasted for a while like it's it's a long period of time of just kind of feeling really funky but then I started 75 hard what's that like it's like workout thing the workout thing oh yeah it's crazy you don't know about that it's because it's very hard for people who do 75 hard to not talk about it

about it yeah sorry guys i had to let you know but i only did that because i was like i just need something to give like give me some form of uh like a push it's like three workouts a day or something yeah it's like yeah it's like uh you know i can't even remember what the whole thing is like drink a gallon of water you gotta you gotta do an outside workout it's a lot of like yeah i got pretty caught dude like i got pretty i got like the best shape at that time of my life like and uh

So I started that and then I moved back to Utah and then kept doing that there.

And got to a, you know, like a pretty good place where I was just like really focused on that side of things, the health side. And then, yeah, I mean, there's just obviously there's a lot of there's still a lot in there. But, you know, I don't think you feel like you're in a place now where you can like be maybe around some of those guys from your childhood and like set that boundary or you kind of like, I don't even want to go anywhere near that.

Yeah. Like, for example, my one of my best friends, like almost everybody that I was dealing with at that time, they're like all dead. Most of them are all dead. Like any of those people that I was like, a lot of them are dead now. And so I have one friend who.

Well, I have two. One of them's on methadone and he's at least like, you know, he's been on that for a long time. And then the other one, he is actually, he ended up getting sober. He went back to jail and got out and he's been doing a lot better now. Sorry, what did you ask me again? Like, do you feel like you can set those boundaries? Oh, yeah, yeah. Say you go back and you're like, should we? Are you good? Like, do you feel like you're in such a good place where you'd be like, yeah, I don't even want to. Oh, yeah, just a follow up to that is like,

You've been sober for three years. Yeah. Have there been moments like how have you been pretty close to gosh? Yeah. I mean, I don't know what it's like in your shoes, dude. So, I mean, you talk about like the breakup part. So this is the first time where I have ever went through like a breakup or you could say it like with Taylor.

where I have never relapsed. That to me, it's really hard on me. Relationships for some reason are extremely hard on me. And I think a big part of it is because like, again, when I am in, I feel very in and like almost to a point where it's, it's probably not super healthy sometimes. Cause I'm just like, I can't think about anything else but that. It's like, and that to me is the, you know, the side of like being either codependent and, you know, or like just

Just even my personality is that way. It's like I very much fixate on things that I enjoy or like, like the energy drinks. There was a time I was drinking three or four of those a day. That's crazy. Yeah, because I was just like, it's just like how I am with things sometimes and I hate it. And so it's really important for me to do them, try to find things that are a little healthier for me that I can kind of guide that.

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When did you meet Taylor? Let's start unpacking that. So I met Taylor. So when I moved back, I met her at that time. I think I was, and here's the thing. I was only, I think five months sober, six, six months sober when I met her. Yeah. When I met Taylor, I just, again, like how I am as a person, I was like,

It's really hard for me to feel like I like, like someone enough to give someone myself. Like, it's just like, like, I just don't ever, I've never felt like I, it's hard for me to find somebody where I really am like, yes, like I want to be with you. And, uh, with Taylor that, yeah, when I met her, that's where I kind of felt really scared. It scared me more than anything. It scared me for so many different reasons because I,

One, given her whole background, her whole situation of what she was just coming from. I was like scared of that. So like she was already famous, wasn't she? When you met her? And mom talked famous. Well, yeah. No, no. The scandal was already out. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, she was famous. But the funny thing is,

I actually didn't know about really anything of that until the scandal thing came out. But Taylor, she had, we have mutual friends. When you say scandal, when she went online and said, this is going on in my life. Yeah, like my TikTok page at that time was like, just like goofy, like weird stuff. And then like, all of a sudden, you know, I'd see a few things about this. And I was like, this is my girlfriend. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and what's funny is, like I said, like my best friend is like, she like, she was friends with Taylor. And so, and I had like other mutual friends that knew Taylor and the other, is she divorced at this point? I want to say she was like, I think she was, I don't know. I mean, I think she was like, she was definitely separated. Oh yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. She was like, no, no, no. Yeah. It was like, yeah. Don't say that.

But yeah, I think she was fully divorced at this time. And the funny part is she actually, she followed me on Instagram maybe a year before that, which is really funny from like my friend, I think like you would post stuff of me. And so she followed me, but like, I didn't really think anything of it. Right. And she was just like married, had kids. I was like, oh, that's cool. But, and so like we followed each other and then, um,

Yeah, and then once all that happened, some DMs were exchanged. Once all what happened? What? Once all what happened. Following each other back and forth. Yeah, and then DMing each other. Okay. And to be honest with you, for me, I really didn't think she even would want to hang out. You know what I'm saying? I was just like, you're just going through so much right now anyways. That was the last thing that's probably going to happen. And then...

Yeah, that eventually happened and we like hung out. How aware of your addiction was she or your struggle with addiction? Yeah, she was very aware. Yeah, I'm super open with like that side of things. Just like, yeah, so she like knew about all of that. How soon into the relationship did...

her arrest happen the big fight at the house i think it was four or five months in i mean she was throwing the chair at you which yeah almost hit her yeah right yeah and uh that was uh

really scary thing that, that night was, I mean, you want to talk about being like in a position of what do you do? That, that's how I, that's how it felt. And I get a lot of shit for that still, but well, I mean, I mean, it don't help just kind of being a dude. Like, I want to be honest, like just, I think being a guy in that situation is it, it was really scary for me.

And it was scary for me because her kids were there. So just the fact that it's a domestic dispute and cops are being called, you're immediately... Dude, a thousand percent. And so I did take a video. I videoed it. And the only reason I did that was I didn't know what was going to happen. And so my truck was in the garage. So I could not leave.

I tried to leave. It just was so bad. So you were videoing her kind of going off the rails. Yeah, yeah. What started it? Well, she was hammered. She was absolutely hammered. And so I don't know if you remember in the first season even, but that was one of my big things was I was like, hey, look, if you want to party, you want to do those things, you can go do it. I just...

I'm not, I don't want to be there. Yeah. I don't want to be in that. I don't want to be in a relationship like that. And I, and I even said that, like, I made it very clear. I was like, that's fine. If that's what you want to do, like it, it has, you know, you're good to do that. I just, I don't want to be around that. I don't want to deal with that. And, uh, you know, obviously it happened multiple, multiple, multiple times. And, uh,

I think for me at that time, it was tough because it's like, well, guess what? That's a world that I know. I understand that world. And I could also see that Taylor was absolutely suffering. Like she was going through a lot. And so I think that's the part in me that was just very forgiving of it. I'll let you just kind of like try to see if maybe you could work some of this out. But that night specifically, it was...

And when people get really drunk, right, it can go in phases of emotional to then anger. It will change. And so when I picked her up from this party, when I was driving home, she just was crying, breaking down, and just hated herself for kind of, I think, everything she did. I think with her family losing everything. It was actually really, really sad to see that happen.

And, um, yeah, it was just, she was just, you know, just in shambles. And when I got to her house at this time, I didn't know her kids were there by the way, either. I had no idea. So I actually pulled up next to her house and I was trying to carry her in the house.

And this didn't look good, but like for like with my luck, there's a, there's a person that's going on a walk at night that is walking around the corner and Taylor's just, you know,

just crying and like just and it and I'm kind of like nervous of just that part now I'm like and so I had to just make sure I told that person even like I'm like hey she's just really drunk like I'm just trying to get her in the house like but even then but right dude even then I was kind of like gosh damn I was like I don't know what to do and then I go I get her to the front door it's locked and then she's like oh my keys are in my truck at the party like where she was at because she left her vehicle and so I'm like

So I put her back in the car, drove all the way back to the party, grabbed the keys, then came all the way back. This is where things changed. And the other part of her came out like it was the anger part. It was so fast when it switched. But when I got there, I pulled into her garage and parked, helped her in the house. And sure enough, she had a sitter that was watching her kids sew.

The craziest part is if I would have known that I could have just knocked on the door and got her in bed, everything would have been okay at that time. But because of having to go back and then... On the drive back to the party, were you provoking her a little bit of being like, why would you leave your keys? Now I got to drive all the way back. Nope, not at this time. The part where I was upset was in the very beginning of her just

Choosing to get drunk again, like, cause she even told me she wasn't going to drink. Sure. And like, again, this was just the time and time and time after again. But even then, like once, once she was in the car and stuff and it was like, I was just kind of like, I just don't, I don't know why you're, you keep doing this. When you ask that question now, are you able to answer it in a. Wait, which question? Yeah.

in the moment you're like, I don't know why you keep doing this. Oh, well, yeah. I mean, I guess like, you know, the whole conversation we just had. No, no, no. Meaning. Yeah. Like, I guess I understood it, but like, it just felt cause I just gave her that ultimatum of like, uh, well, it wasn't like an ultimatum, but it kind of was in the beginning of just like, Hey, look like,

Which is 100% valid. Like, this is my history. I don't want to be around this. Yeah, like, I just don't like dealing with that stuff. And because that is all I've ever seen my whole life. I've always seen the negative effects, whether it's alcohol or anything else. And obviously, like, coming back, I mean, she was, you know, when she was, like, broken, I was just immediately like, okay, I'm going to just try to take care of you, get you in the house.

And then when we got into the house, when I came back, like the sitters, like it was immediately like so chaotic that like even I told them, I was like, hey, she's just really drunk. I'm going to try to just get her to bed. And like the second they walked out the door, it was. Yeah, essentially, it just turned into the most craziest thing ever. Like I.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, there's just a lot of... I will say, we had Taylor on. She opened up a lot about her version of this night. She expressed extreme remorse and regret for all of her actions. So I don't want us to, like, talk about this in a way of, like... It was just more so I was curious on your side and how you remember that night to have happened. Yeah. And, I mean, I could go into detail, but, like, I do feel kind of bad. Yeah.

And that's what's really sad though, too, is because I don't know, like I do feel like now it's, it's hard for me because I get a lot of people that are like, it was him. He was the one that did this and provoked her and, and pushed her to this thing. Sure. Well, I don't want to relate the past as Nellie had mentioned. It sounds like it was a regrettable night. Yeah. For everyone. But that obviously wasn't the end of you two. No. Right. Right.

And I think what I'd like to spend the rest of our time talking about, because Taylor's not here, and I hope someday to kind of have this conversation with her, maybe with the both of you together someday. But watching you this season, season two, my heart breaks for both of you, right? Because I see love between the two of you. And now that you have a child together, being a new father myself, Natalie and I, we're so protective of our family.

I think sometimes couples can lose themselves being too protective of the family because, you know, you have a kid, it's about the kid and you want to keep the unit, but like you still have to prioritize each other and keep the spark alive. But that aside, you know, you guys seem like you're torturing each other. And I, you know,

From an outsider looking in, and there's way more I don't know about your guys' relationship than know. But yeah, my best guess is like, you're both at fault. You both torture each other. Yes. You both have moments of antagonizing the other person. I don't know the full scale of what Taylor is suffering through, but she's opened up this season about her trauma with her father.

It's an incredibly sad story she told this season, the only time and the first time meeting her father. You know, my wife has opened up about her father issues and just how demoralizing that can be to someone and the impact that can have on your entire childhood and just the trauma that can be.

You obviously just opened up about your addiction and your trauma. So you both come from this place of extreme hurt and this place of extreme pain. And I just want to focus on, I guess before we get into it, do you think Taylor is your new drug of choice? Yeah, a lot of people say that.

I mean, clearly there's probably a side to it where it feels that way. Like it's, and again, that might come back to the, when it feels like the way for you or appears that way in terms of like why me or so many people online, like have asked you that question or presented that as a possibility. Yeah, probably both.

I mean, but here's the side that like, yeah, again, there the context of me and Taylor's relationship, if you knew everything, it would all make a thousand times more sense. And that's like the thing is it's, you know, you're getting these like bits and pieces and you're getting Taylor where, you know, it's whether it's a scene or, you know, whether she's triggered and super upset at me.

For good reason for a lot of the stuff. Like I get it. Like I, I did. And like, and especially given her background and like her daddy issues, like the things I did were hurting the, you know, the parts in her. And those things being like what was shown season two in terms of like you not coming back.

Fully clean with the early stages of your relationship and what seemed to be like a nowadays everyone's in this situation. So no one's defining things. And there's always like this gray area of like we're dating, but we're not together. We're exclusive, but we're not boyfriend and girlfriend and yada, yada, yada.

Is that like kind of what your reasoning is for your initial decisions for why you forget about what you did or didn't tell Taylor, but I want to more focus on your actions of like the women that you were hanging out with, hooking up with. Yeah. Why were you in your, from your perspective, why were you doing what you were doing in that period of time? Yeah. No. Great question. Yeah.

I think for me during that time, like when I first, when I first hung with Taylor, even again, like Taylor was just going through all this stuff. Right. So like Taylor, like the, you know, the first thing she's like told me was like, I'm not ready for any relationship for a long time. So I knew that right from the gate. And I, and I didn't expect that from Taylor. It's not like I expected her to be like ready to just jump into a relationship. And not only that, but

I was also coming from the whole other side for me too, to where I was kind of like, I don't know what I want either, but I am the type of person where I crave love. I want, like, I, I love love. And there's a part where I always feel like maybe I'll, I'll never find it. I'm like, I'm always like, I was like, I don't know if I'll ever find it, but like, I want it so bad. And when I did start hanging with Taylor, I realized right away that I was like, oh, she's like, she's so cool.

And I wasn't sure, like, I didn't know what she was going to be like. And I feel like our personalities and just like who we are as people.

it was just like a really cool bond and connection. And if I'm being 100% honest, there was a big part of me, like even some of the girls that were involved, like during that time, for example, like, you know, I, again, like coming from my background, I never dated. I've never dated like ever. Like I married my high school sweetheart. I don't even know if I went on a date before that. So like married my high school sweetheart,

was on drugs, like never dated, moved to Utah, the capital dating world of the century. Like every single person is like, just date 50 girls, like just be going on dates and do this and that. So I don't think I really had a good guidance of how to even navigate that side of things of like, how do I do this of like taking these girls out, but also, you know, not screwing things up and being like a piece of shit.

And so like some of those girls, like there was already like a lead up of things, right? Like, so like I already took one girl out like once or twice or hung with her a few times with my group of friends and

Like the other girl, like I took out a couple of times. So like those were just like things that were already happening. And then like Taylor was just in the mix of that. And you were operating under Taylor being like, I'm not ready for anything serious for a while. So like, this is just like a fun. I imagine y'all were,

hooking up at this time. So it was like, this is just a fun, like friends with benefits to blow some steam off. Yeah. And you want to know the funniest part? I have never asked a girl like just based off of like my personality, like especially in the beginning, but like, I remember I was so, I couldn't read Taylor ever.

And I was asking Taylor questions like I felt like a like a girl. Like I was like, what am I to you? Like I'm like, like pretty early on. I'm just like, what are you wanting with me? Because I just I don't know. And I could tell something inside of me liked her like like I knew it. And it scared me really bad.

And so there was also that part of, I didn't want her to hurt me. Like I was like, I feel like you're going to hurt me. And that's the sad part is I was one that hurt her. And I think part of that was maybe me just kind of, uh, maybe even a little bit of like sabotaging it just kind of like, because I was so afraid of how much I liked Taylor and how afraid I was of her and knowing that I didn't know really what she wanted or,

like if this could even be a thing. And during that time, she was still talking to the man she had an affair with. Like, and I like, I'm not stupid. Like I can obviously like read those things. I still knew there was something going on there that, um,

It just kind of put me in a spot of, I didn't feel like I could almost, well, I could have, but like, I didn't really necessarily want to give her a hundred percent of me because I felt I was like afraid of that. I didn't, I didn't want to get like hurt by that because that's how I am when I'm all in, I'm all in.

And so that's what led to some of those dumb mistakes in that beginning stages there, you know, and she knew about both of them, by the way, like before we dated, the thing that I did was I just lied. Well, I just left out certain details. Lied. Yes. I lied. I lied.

I did. I lied. Someone say lied. No, I was just explaining. I'm a big stickler when it comes to those things because, you know, there's just, the world is full of people who say things like, I didn't tell you because I didn't want to be mad. And I'm sure that comes from a place of honesty. I don't doubt that you didn't want someone to be mad or people didn't want to be mad, but they presented it in a way that I was thinking of you. Yeah. No, no, 100%. And what the truth is, you're not thinking of them. You're thinking of yourself and how you don't want to put your, you don't want to get in trouble.

You know, this way we didn't want to tell our parents why we did or didn't do it because you knew you'd get punished for it. So you didn't tell them. Yeah, exactly. And like, I was just meaning more of the detail side of it. And like, yeah, again, I mean, a lie is a lie. Like I screwed up. Like I know I did it wrong. What do you think it's going to take for you and Taylor to be in like a healthy relationship that you would want your son to one day be in?

What has to change? Like individually or for me and Taylor to be... For you and Taylor. Like what would have to change? What would have to... Well, one of them would have been me to be honest. And I have now... It's been a really cool experience for me. It's been the worst experience ever for me. But if you want to talk about like a massive learning experience and...

just kind of like finally seeing that I've never really understood that. Like I, you know, in my head again, yeah, I was justifying that. Like I, and it was really easy for me to do it in my head because I was like, this poor girl suffering. Like when I was dating her, I was like, I don't want to like add any more fuel to that. You also have a history of justifying your actions. So I'm sure it comes natural. Yeah. And that's like, that's a total, you know, addicts are known for being liars. That's like a big thing. You get really good at lying.

and justifying that stuff. And the weird part is though, even when I was dating, like before Taylor, even when I moved to Utah, I was very brutally honest with everyone. Like with every girl I dated anything, like I didn't even care because I was like, I'm just going to tell you how it is. Like, I don't know if I want anything, do what you want with that. And with Taylor, I

because I knew I liked her that went out the window I was like oh no I don't know if I can uh I don't know if I want to tell you this like I don't know if I want to say this and that's where I just yeah that it sucks because there is a part of me where I feel like maybe and I don't know if it would have changed anything because there is a lot of other stuff going on

That in my eyes, I just I don't know if it would have changed. But again, it's not even about that. It's about, yeah, just me doing the right thing, like and just like staying true to myself and like, and I think if I could have just been so honest with her.

and just been like, hey, this is what I did. I don't know why I did it. I don't know what fear, whatever you want to call it, like me just being a dumbass, but I owe you this of just knowing the truth and to at least just give you that. As we sit here today, does Taylor know everything she needs to know about anything she would care to know? Yeah, Taylor.

Taylor knows everything she needs to know right now. And it's my understanding that it took a while to get there. It took.

A very long time. How many lies does Taylor feel like you have told her in that process? There was four. Well, I mean, four of like, well, there was two that were actually like in the relationship. Sure. And then, you know, the two were before we dated, but the two, when I was in the relationship, um,

Well, I, well, gosh, I guess I can't even say that because she broke up with me. So technically, no, I wasn't even dating her, but it's good about you. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But just, I'm just saying, but like that, like even the lies there, like, so those were two to where we were actually like in that pro like in the relationship phase. And yeah, one of those lies is really fresh right now. And that one, it,

Yeah, that one hurt me. And again, it's like... So can you elaborate? I can't really elaborate on it too much. Is this like a season three situation? No, this is a... Well, I don't know. We'll see, man.

It's, uh, it's just, yeah, it's like that one kind of hurt me. What do you mean hurt you? Well, meaning just that it hurt me to lie about it. And the context of everything changes a lot too. And I think that's a big part of it is even right now, like I, I can't give you the context of it. I can't like about, about me and Taylor. I can't do it. Why? Cause you want to protect. Yes. And I, and that is all I've ever done. And, and,

And I think that's why it's always been so hard for me because it has always felt like I have never been able to tell what Dakota has actually experienced throughout this because...

It matters. Like it, it, it does. It changes a lot. I don't doubt that, you know, because like, you know, I've gotten to know Taylor and I find her incredibly charming and sweet and at the same time also like have a lot of empathy for her, but like, and by her own admission, she can be toxic. You know, she has a toxic side. I feel like if Taylor were sitting here, I could say that to her face and I feel like she could acknowledge that. Yeah. Would you agree with that? That Taylor can be toxic and that she would acknowledge that?

Yes. Okay. And I don't doubt that, like I said, I think you've tortured each other. Yeah. And I don't know what you can't share and I respect...

I want to respect that. But when you say, you know, I don't think a lot of people understand what Dakota has been through without knowing the detail. I'm going to give you that. I know like there's things that you've probably had to protect the people you love. There's probably context people are missing. This is a show that you're on that are watched by women. This is a, this is a show that people are listening to that primarily has a women audience. Listen, in 2025, I'm sure there are times that you and I, we could sit there and have

you know, get together and sometimes feel like maybe people don't understand our plight that maybe we don't get the benefit of the doubt in situations. Right. And I want to acknowledge all that and give you all that. But do you still think there are things regardless of that? Like, could you be holding yourself more accountable given the, whatever the challenges you guys have faced? And I guess what I'm saying, you know, maybe to give it some context last week, Taylor was

was supposed to be here and supposed to be part of a group interview she didn't show up right uh i got the impression there was some drama between the two of you yeah that ultimately led to that happening and i'm sure taylor is playing her role in it i'm sure she is doing things that maybe isn't antagonizing you or getting you riled up and playing to your triggers but i

I want to focus on... Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm also getting the sense that you're doing the same. That you both at different times are still your own worst enemies. And there's these...

Pivotal moments. Maybe she's missing you and she needs the comfort of Dakota and maybe you're missing Taylor and you need the comfort of Taylor and you guys are giving in to your weaknesses of temptations. A lot of this season where you guys, you're still hooking up and you guys say you're done. We've seen the photos from Stagecoach where you're looking at each other's faces and they fucked that night. No, we didn't.

But man to man, I just like for someone who has the strength to lock themselves in a hotel room, being addicted to fentanyl and go through relapse. Why can't you do quote unquote the right thing? And because I sometimes I feel like the key to maybe you and Taylor being happy in the long run is having the strength to say no to

to Taylor in the short run. Yeah. Even if Taylor is reaching out to you and saying, I want Dakota, maybe you have to be the person who says that's not healthy for us right now. And in addition to that, not have your moments of weaknesses where you're doing the exact same potentially when I'm getting the sense that maybe you do. Is this all fair? I mean, if you want the actual statistic numbers there, I mean, I would say it's about 90%.

98% her. Okay. So that's. Okay. But then why can't you say no? Right. Yeah. I mean, okay. So for me, like if you're talking about like this side of it, like, and again, you're right. This is, by the way, this, this is a hundred percent on me too. Like as far as I I'm in charge of my life. Yeah. I like at any moment I can be like Dakota stop.

Like stop, stop. You're just continuing the cycle of this. Yeah. And maybe, you know, I guess her excuse was she wants to trust you. She wants to be with you. You heard her. Yeah. She wishes she could be with you. But there's that part of her that every time she gives in to being around you, there's that voice that says you can't trust him. Men hurt you your whole life. From the moment you were born, you can't trust men. And you've done nothing to alleviate that fear or pain. Yeah.

And, uh, I think that is, yeah, again, that's the part where, yeah, I didn't show up. Right. Like I, I a hundred percent fell in that area. When do you want to start being the person? Well, right now, right now in this moment, I have nothing.

I like that. She has it all. What do you mean by that? Like meaning anything like, like any of those secrets or anything that, you know, that I lied to her about, or, you know, didn't give her full details. Like she has everything right now. Okay. And again, you want, and then if I am being honest and I know a lot of people from like a, like a viewer point of view, and you might understand this, but having everything aired out to the world, uh,

is a lot different than just going to a person you care about or your family and telling them something. Like you want to talk about fear that that's the scariest feeling in the world because, and then doing it with a show, uh,

You don't like if I have any control over yet, you don't have, if they're missing something, it's like, that's not how it was. And that to me was really hard to grasp. That was hard to understand that. I was like, I don't want to be torched to the world for it. I just want to have like a moment with you where I can do this, like where I can talk to you. I have like a safe place to talk, but that's not the case. And if you know, Taylor,

It's to the world. And that's just how she is. And that's her thing. And that's what she's known for is like, it will be, you know, if there's something that she knows, she's going to share it. And that's a really, it's scary sometimes. It scares me to death. Is that why you're kind of protecting this issue that y'all are currently trying to work through? Yeah. I mean, yeah, there's...

Yeah. And it's just like a, it's a long thing, but like, again, like the end of the day and Taylor, Taylor has admitted this too. Like, and she'll like, she's admitted it to me. She might not admit it to her friend. She might not admit it on camera. We have heard each other both like really bad. You don't think she'd admit that? I don't know. Maybe she would.

I always get, I don't know, dude. I'm always feeling like every time I see Taylor, I can't tell. It's like, sometimes I feel like she's ready to kill me when she sees me or she's kind of nice. So like, that's like. I believe that. I think you're a trigger for her. Yes. I also think she loves you. Yeah. You know, I also think she wishes she could be with you. Yeah. She's clearly torn. You know, I just, what I want for you is to find the strength.

to be whatever rock she needs and not allow her to use you as a trigger. And I think there's, from an outside looking in. Yeah, give me some advice on that. Well, it seems like you. Give me like a couple things. Well, I mean, you love her. From an outside. I mean, listen, I've been in those situations. We all have. I think everyone listening knows what it's like to be in that toxic relationship. You can't kick someone. You know they're not supposed to be together or something's wrong, but you can't get rid of each other. But like, again, you have faced some,

harder times yeah you have survived near-death situations and it sounds like taylor's really hurting right now in a lot of reasons and again you are you are a trigger for her and it seems like you're a trigger for her more than she's a trigger for you i'm i don't know she triggers you but like she's been very honest about her relationship with men in general yeah and your man yes you know yes um

And my wife has opened up to me about her issues. And so I take great pride and responsibility to know that while it's not my fault and while I wasn't there in times of trauma that she experienced, I have to hold myself to a higher standard and be there for her because of what has happened. And I've accepted that challenge knowing when I met Natalie, she was pretty open pretty quickly about

What she's been through, you know, and I could have been like, that's too much for me and I don't bag it, you know, whatever. But I, you know, I couldn't just say, well, you deal with it on your own. I don't want any part of that. It's like, if you're going to be my wife, if I'm going to be your husband, if you're going to, if we're going to be a couple, I have to do whatever I can.

to not be that trigger. Yeah. You know, even, and I, and I have my shit, you know, I've only dated women. Right. And so women have only, you know, when it comes to people who have caused me the most emotional pain in my life, it's women. Yeah. Same. Yeah. But I can't use that as an excuse, especially with my wife who pain or not, like what Nellie has experienced through men, what I've experienced is nothing compared to that. Right. You know, and the childhood I've had, um,

I've been compared to what Natalie was raised in is a night and day difference. And I want you to try to focus on being her rock, even if that means you can't have her in the way that you would like to have her. Does that make sense? Yeah. I think you need to start saying no. Right. Okay. Yes. Okay. Cause this is the thing. So me and Taylor have the same therapist. So it's

It's for you guys. You guys are together though. So, but so like that takes a lot of work. Yeah, it does. And that's the thing. And so like, even just with that alone, like that concept of like, yeah, like I need to be her rock. I need to be there for her. I think the part that was so hard, and this is what I've talked to like, you know, art therapists about a lot is I'm being pushed to

away completely like and and this this has been for a very long time so like for me like in any relationship right if you were to if you know if you like let's say you hurt his trust okay you did something bad like for you to show nick that like you can be trusted again

The only way to do that is by you showing up for him and showing him by action, by doing certain things to gain that trust back. You prove you're truthful by telling the truth. Yes. And then you gain your trust back. And I think the part that was really hard is I've never, how it's felt for me is I've never felt like I've actually had Taylor ever. Because whether it's me wanting to show her in ways or have something like,

like taylor's been broke up with me just so you guys know for 11 months sure so it's how old is your son uh he's four almost 14 months and so it has been like that was the part where it was really hard and i was trying to like figure that out with like the therapist i was like hey like if i'm wanting to like try to like show her or like have something but at the same time it's like

I'm not even her boyfriend right now. See, I think that's the part, I think... And maybe that's where I'm getting twisted. Yeah, well...

I don't think it's your intention. No, I'm confused. No, it's just more what I'm hearing from you underneath it all is I need to be with her and we need to be in a relationship for me to be able to show her the type of partner I can be. And I'm suggesting you don't need to be. And I'm suggesting that, well, hey, like for better or worse, you two have it. Well, for better, you two have a kid together. Yeah. And regardless of what happens as a romantic couple for the next seven,

17 years, your guys will, I guess, be in each other's life to a certain extent. And you can still be a support system. You can be an example to her. You can be a great father to your son. You can be someone she can always count on. Yeah. Even if she doesn't

A hundred percent. Except you back as a partner. And I think you are operating under this premise almost a little bit of as a victim. And I don't doubt that you've been victimized in this relationship. And I think you both have. And I think you sometimes lead with your pain that has persisted.

been caused by this relationship as opposed to just accepting the reality of this situation is that whether Taylor can wants to be with you or not, she can't, not in a healthy way. You know, she hasn't forgiving you yet that the, the, the wounds are too fresh. Yeah. And I think you, you know, and, but she, she's, you know, like you said, 98% of the time she's reaching out to you and, and you give in, you give in to the part of you that wants her back. And I, I get it.

I've been there, you know, like what I'm, what I'm suggesting to you is a very difficult task, you know, maybe as difficult as anything you've been through. But I think you're, I mean, if you can lock yourself in a hotel room and get clean, I think you can do the thing that I'm suggesting you might need to do to get the thing that you say you want to get. Yes. And that is, uh, that is the exact advice that my therapist gave me. She was like, Dakota, there is nothing you can do right now, but literally just say,

No, like I'm not going to, I'm not going to keep sleeping with you. I'm not going to like keep doing, you know, seeing you like if, you know, just to focus on me being a co-parent and letting that just be for now and still showing up.

in the ways that I can in like a healthy way and being supportive and doing all of those things you just said. And yeah, I think that that is the hardest part is again, it's it's so hard because I love her and it's like, yeah, I don't I don't want to lose her. And part of her wound is abandonment. Right. So

if she is reaching out to me it makes me feel shitty sometimes if i say no to that because i'm like that's your biggest fear is me saying no yeah but i think you're old enough to know the difference and i think you're old enough and mature enough to know that and i'm sure she might even in the heat of the moment use it against you i mean she might even throw it in your face i'm sure she has but it's gonna take someone yeah you're right being healthy in the with a healthy mindset yeah and and

and I just get the sense, you know, again, you, you've, you have conquered some pretty dark demons and maybe you're just at a place that she isn't yet. Yeah. And she might need you to be stronger than you're, you're giving yourself credit for. Yeah, no, you're right. And yeah, that's, yeah, that's what I've been told too. They're like,

It's not going to be Taylor that's going to do it. You're going to have to do this. Like you gotta just do it. So how bad do you want it? Bad. Yeah. So like that, and that is what I'm like, uh, I mean, in the last five days or whatever, I have done it. Okay. And so, and I hope that I can like keep with that. And I feel like, especially right now, just given everything, I think I do feel like a big shift in me right now.

Of just wanting to really make sure I do things in a different way moving forward and just like standing my ground and knowing that if I do keep doing this, I mean, it's insanity. It is literally insanity. It's just like we're doing the same thing over and over again.

And the result is not changing. And so it's like, I mean, they teach us that like in rehab, you know? And so, yeah, it is something that I know I need to just do. But the part I think that has always made it so hard for me is the, it's the kid part. You know, I take the kid out of like, you take my son out of it.

The whole thing changes. But I and I know that and I'm saying it's like, well, you got to do what's best. Like, you know, this isn't what I get all of that. I understand all of that. But it does not mean it's not the hardest thing in the world, too, because everything now affects my son, too. So whether that's co-parenting, me not getting to see my son as much like.

This is my first kid. And I've practically had to be doing this co-parenting thing right out the gate. I don't doubt it's a challenge. Yeah, it sucks. But late nights and some of the shenanigans that you guys seem to be doing, I don't know how much your son has to do with that part.

Well, to be honest, sometimes I'm sure big picture. I get it. Well, no, it just allows me to play high. I get it. Like be around him more, you know, different things like that. So it's like long game, man. Long game. There you go. It's the long game where it's like, it's, it's not doing any, it's not doing any good. You have the benefit of right now. Like now and I were talking about this, you know, we're connecting with our daughter in ways, you know, especially for me now, like now he's been connected with river since the moment she found out she was pregnant and it's different for dads. Right. Um,

There's a lot of things right now Rimmer's not going to remember.

you know, we're gone for two days. It's harder on us. Right. Than it is on river. Oh yeah. You know, she's not going to remember us coming and going and things like that. Soon your son is going to remember more things. So like, I understand it's hard not to be around your son. And yeah, I mean like I'm, I'm so grateful for what now and I have in this moment that I, I don't have to co-parent and I don't have to be about her. And when I'm out running away from her, the longest I've been away from her was three nights. Um,

It's hard. It's brutal. It is. But the good news is she won't like, she doesn't remember that now. You're yeah. You got to think about three or four years from now. And if you put the work in now. Yeah, you're right. And that, yeah. And you're right. And regardless of even what happens with me and Taylor, like, and I do know that I can, it goes back to that whole thing. It's like in the moment, it feels like it's the end of the world. Like I'm like, oh my gosh, I'll never, I'll never have happiness again. I'll never, I'll never,

I'll never find someone again or be able to have a family. You know, I'll never have like a full, like a family. And I think that's just something I've always craved so bad my whole life that I just, I want that more than anything. And it's, you know, it's not, it's not working and maybe not working right now, which is, and that's fine. And it is very much out of my control to where now I need to just do the right thing. Yeah. Because like, you know, I get it. Right.

Right. But what you don't want to be five years from now is looking back. You want to look back. If it doesn't, if it doesn't work out with you and Taylor, you want to know that you did everything you could do. Yeah.

Right. And right now, if you didn't change, if you change nothing about what you're doing, minus these past several days that you said, you know, you're really trying to put it in that effort. But let's say you. Yeah. Goes back to whatever patterns you've been demonstrating. You had the two of you for the past, say, 11 months. What you're going to think is I would I it was too hard. Yeah. Oh, I wish I was stronger. I wish I was this. I wish I wish I.

Did more because right now you're saying it's too hard. It's like I could it's all but it's hard and I I want to be around my son and I get all that. Yeah, but five years from now, you won't be saying that to yourself. You'll be wishing you had the strength and the guts to make the sacrifice in the short term because you'd be wondering how if I would have done all those difficult things if I would have said no to Taylor if I would have just focused on being a good co-parent and being a good father and

And being the emotional strong person in our dynamic, what if? Would have that have changed? And you don't want to be that person. Give me some, Doug. Yeah, I actually love that. Yeah, you're right. That's spot on. He's a good guy.

Yeah, that is. Yeah, I do. I actually, I agree a hundred percent with that. And I think that would be something I would look back on, especially cause I do feel like I do have a guilty conscience and I think it would eat away at me down the road. So, and I don't want that either. So this would be a great place to end it, but I do have to ask, and I don't hope I'm not triggering you, but we had Macy on the other day and she is not a fan of yours. You're not a fan of hers.

Uh, let me just say, let me just say, I don't not like anybody. I don't not like people. Okay. I love people. That is like,

And anybody who knows me knows that. The part that I think is hard, and I can't even blame Macy for this. And this is a funny thing. She just said something about this too. Like, oh, every time we're together, it's like, he's always nice to me. And we like get along and blah, blah, blah. And to be honest with you, that's the truth. That's not me faking that either. It's like, I don't not want to like you. I actually get along with Macy when...

We hang out and we talk and I'm around her. But the part that drives me nuts is it's like, I just feel like she sits and just bashes me 24 seven. Yeah. I get that impression too. And I'm like, okay. Taylor's her friend. She's, she's, she's, she's, you know, a girl's girl. Macy's opened up about some of the men in her life and what they've done to her.

So I imagine you can have empathy for that. And I think you're just a trigger, you know, and then you see, and then, you know, quite honestly, everything we just talked about,

she is not gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. - No. - And she sees a person who's not doing everything he can do. - Yeah. - And she sees you playing a big part in this toxic relationship that you have with Taylor. - Yeah. - Right, and I mean, yeah, and it goes back to the same thing though. So it's like, you know, obviously like hurt Taylor. It's like, I know that, I mean, you know, she's not, you know, in those moments and in different things, she's obviously probably just like not saying great things about me.

And so for Macy, you know, she's just the one that's sitting there hearing all this. But I think the part that just like always bothers me kind of is it's like my friends I vent to or even her husband on the show. It's like, guess what I'm also doing? Like, hey, you know, just the only part I would challenge you on says, as I'm imagining, you're thinking, I don't know why she hates me. I'm not doing anything to her and there's nothing I can do. She just hates me. No. Yeah.

I see. I am like, I have two sides to me right here. One side, I want to just go off right now because I have very good reason in a lot of these things where it's like, Macy, I mean, I just go based on, let's go off the show. I mean, no offense, but Macy-

What's your storyline? Your storyline is literally bashing me. It's bashing me the whole time. That's what she does. It's like, I'm Taylor's friend, Dakota's bad. And that is what she has ran with. That's what she does. I mean, even taking like, and I feel like here's the other part to it as well. Me and Taylor, as far as when it comes down to like opening up and sharing things that

Probably shouldn't be shared a lot of the time. So you guys are definitely the most vulnerable. And there you go, which I mean, and if you don't think these other couples have things that they're just, Hmm, I'm not going to share it. Okay, cool. That's fine. But like, you feel like she's being a bit of a hypocrite. A thousand percent. And I feel like I am like her, like, it's just, it's perfect. It's perfect for her. It's like, I'm Taylor's friend. They're always fighting.

We hate him. And then like, I think now she's recruited Michaela. So, which is so weird because I've, I've always loved Michaela. I,

Don't have an issue with them. I don't have an issue with any of them. I just. Just prove them all wrong. Be that person we just talked about. Yeah. That things will change. Well, and I do that too with her even. It's like, I'm never like sitting there like fighting with me. Don't do it to get their approval. Don't do it to get them to like you. Just do it because five years from now, you don't want to have regret. Yeah. And I really feel like the rest of it will play out. Do you think they see behavior from you that.

they're not fans of? Like, do you think it's... It can't be just everything Taylor relays to them. Like, have they... Or is it...

I mean, I don't know how much I can share it. I mean, like if, and these girls, let me just say like, I don't doubt that whatever Taylor does, like they're not, they're not giving you the benefit. I don't doubt that. I don't, they're not, they're not looking to give you a pass. Never. That's clear. And so, and yeah, and so, you know, it is one of those things. And I think that is something where I do, unfortunately, you know, like I think I'm, I'm obviously like really hard on myself and I,

I think I do have that part in me where I, I, it bothers me sometimes when people don't like me and that's not healthy. That's not good either, you know, but like, I really do like people a lot. And so when someone doesn't like me, it like hurts my feelings. Prove them wrong. Yeah. I'm like, why don't you like me? And, and,

And I get it. I understand it. Forget about what Taylor's done. Yeah. And I do think that's the part you are stuck on because she's, she has her side, right? She has shit she needs to work on, be accountable for, admit to things. You are not the, you know, there are two sides of this story. You're half the problem. She's, I, and I think when, when,

Whether it's me right now or people in general coming down on you, your first defense is to kind of be like, I'm not the only bad guy in this situation. Dude, well, but that's what's so hard is because it's like you have these girls and they're

they're it's to the world. So it's like, and then, I mean, you take even Macy's background, like, like she compares me to her abusive ex. And it's like, those aren't little things to throw around to the public and like, put me in that position of being like, yeah, that's, that's your, that's a fair point. Yeah. And so like, I think that is where I am. Like, I'm a very, like, I get very like defensive of that because I'm like, how dare you? Like, don't like, why would you do that to me? No,

not i but no again again and and i get what you're saying i'm not i'm not saying like what you're saying is wrong like because you're right i'm just saying like that side of it i think that is where it's hard for me five years from now just remember you don't want to be like it was too hard i'm gonna remember that uh dakota thanks for coming first of all i know you know and i do want to thank you because and i've said this a lot recently especially covering the show and talking about

you and all the women on the show, I don't think we appreciate all the things that you guys are willing to do for our entertainment. You guys are talking about, you know, it's a fun show, it's a funny show, but you guys, whether you're talking about addiction, whether it's the women talking about some of the abuse they've incurred and everything in between,

I really appreciate your guys' vulnerability and the vulnerability you showed today. And I'm rooting for you as a man-to-man, as a person. I'm rooting for you and Taylor. But I see the good in you guys. And I just really hope you guys reach your full potential. Yeah, same. Thank you, man. I appreciate that. And I think, yeah, that's just what I want too. And I just probably have messed that up trying to go about that the right way. I think there's still a...

You can always. I can always change. You're right. There's always a new day tomorrow and I can start. So there you go. Yeah. I want to work on that. But yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you for coming. Really cool. I appreciate it.

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