Part 2: Elon Musk 1-on-1 Exclusive at the White House-DOGE, AI, Trump, Mars & Killer Robots
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Welcome to This Verdict with Senator Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson with you. And today is part two of our exclusive conversation with Elon Musk, the entrepreneur and innovator who is transforming industries and is dismantling government waste, fraud, and abuse with Doge.

Musk's relentless pursuit of technology and space exploration continues to capture the world's imagination. In this episode, we unravel the thoughts and aspirations of a man who defies conventional boundaries, pushing humanity towards new horizons. So join us in the White House as we continue to explore the riveting journey of Elon Musk, a modern-day pioneer whose revolutionary ideas are set to redefine tomorrow. Let me start with a question you know a lot about. What year...

Does man first step set foot on Mars? I think the soonest would be 29. 29? Yes. And I don't think it's more than two to four years beyond that. And that's not an unmanned, that's a human being putting his foot on the surface. Yes, best case would be 29. And what do you put the odds of finding either alien life or evidence of alien life? I don't think we're going to find aliens. Okay.

But do we find ruins? Do we find remnants? We may find the ruins of a long-dead alien civilization. That's possible. And we may find subterranean microbial life. That's possible. All right. If man lands on Mars in 29, how soon after that do you land on Mars? It remains to be seen. I'm not sure. The important thing is that we build a self-sustaining city on Mars as quickly as possible.

The key threshold is when that city can continue to grow, continue to prosper, even when the supply ships from Earth stop coming. At that point, even if something were to happen on Earth, it might not be World War III, but it might be that...

A bad virus. Yeah, it might not be anything. I was saying, say civilization could die with a bang or a whimper. It may be that civilization dies with a whimper rather than a bang and simply loses the ability to send ships to Mars. So you obviously need Mars to become self-sustaining and be able to grow by itself before the resupply ships from Earth stop coming. That is the critical civilizational threshold beyond which

the probable lifespan of civilization is much greater. And how close are we technologically to be able to do that, to have a self-sustaining settlement on the surface of Mars? I think it can be done in 20 years. But it would take 20 years. So we're not in 29. We're not there. What are we missing? What are the big technologies we don't have? A few people running around the surface in a hostile environment is not going to make it self-sustaining. So you're going to need on the order of a million people

maybe a million tons of cargo. So, but you think we could have a million people on Mars in 20 years? Yes. And what's the technology we're missing right now? When you think about a million people on Mars, do we have the ability to get water, to get food, to keep them safe? I mean, what do we need to make that happen? Well, you need to recreate the entire base of industry of Earth. So, you know, we're here at the top of a massive pyramid of industry that starts with

mining a vast array of materials, those materials going through hundreds of steps of refinement. We grow food, obviously. We grow trees. We make things out of the trees. You've got to build all that on Mars. And Mars is a hostile environment. It sometimes gets above zero on a warm summer day near the equator on Mars. It's quite cold. How do you prep for that?

Well, in the beginning on Mars, you have to have a life support habitation module. Right. Like you can't just live outdoors. You can't breathe the air. Like a dome you think is likely? Yeah. Glass domes type of thing. Have you identified a location on Mars that is likely to be ideal for habitat? What might be Arcadia Planetea is one of the good options. That's...

One of my daughters is named Arcadia after that and what makes that attractive my eldest son's middle name is Ari's Mars you've been thinking about this for a long time if you're naming your kids around it My eldest kid is middle name is essentially Mars. When did you get the dream? Like I mean, there's 20 now 2021 soon. This is a decades old Yeah dream. So like when you were 10, did you look up and say I'm going to Mars? No

No, I read a lot of science fiction books and programmed computers. But the first video game that I sold was a space video game called Blastar. Maybe I spoiled it this way. How do you become Elon Musk? Look, you're obviously smart as hell, but there are a lot of smart people that don't do SWAT. And you've managed everything you've touched has been an extraordinary success. Yeah.

Yeah, look, I mean, that's just objectively right. So what has led to that? Because there are other smart people that that's not true, and they gaze at their navel and they don't do anything. So what do you do differently that makes you so effective? Well, I suppose I have a philosophy of curiosity. I want to find out the nature of the universe, understand the universe. And in order to do that, we have to travel to other planets, see other star systems, maybe other galaxies.

find perhaps other alien civilizations or at least the remnants of alien civilizations gain a better understanding of where is this universe going where did it come from and what questions do we not yet know to ask about the answer that is the universe so let's go back 25 years late 90s you're at paypal how do you turn paypal into the success it was which which then helped launch you to the next one in the next yeah so i studied physics and economics in college

which is a good foundation for understanding how the economy works and how reality works. And then was going to do a PhD at Stanford in advanced ultracapacitors, actually, as a potential means of energy storage for electric transport. Put that on hold to start an internet company.

I essentially came to the conclusion that the internet was one of those rare things and I could either watch it happen while a grad student or anticipate. And I figured I'd always go back to grad school. Grad school is going to be kind of the same, but I couldn't bear the thought of just watching the internet happen. So I wanted to be a part of building it. So I created an internet company. We did the first maps, directions, yellow pages, white pages.

I actually wrote the first version of the software just by myself in '95. And we ended up selling that to Compaq, Texas company, I guess, for about $300 million in

About four years after I graduated. Wow. So I should say, just to preface that, I graduated with about $100,000 in student debt. So it wasn't... Yeah, you and me both. Yeah. Where's my $300 million? I'm right. I know. And when I first arrived in North America, I arrived with $2,500, a bag of books, and a bag of clothes. All right. So you sell the company for $300 million. How much does that change your life?

Well, I got $21 million blackjack. But I wanted to do more on the internet. So I started a company called x.com, which merged with a company called Confinity, which is Peter Thiel and Max Levchin. And the combined company was actually at first still called x.com, but we later changed the name of the company to PayPal.

Because of all the name changes, it's kind of confusing. But the company that people know as PayPal today was actually, I filed those incorporation documents for that company. Interesting. Yeah. Well, and as you know, Peter Thiel and I were buddies back in the mid-90s before he went and did any of this. But I became friends with him when he was a...

Corporate lawyer in New York and just sort of a young libertarian with with a lot of dreams. So it's it's been a heck of a journey Yeah, yeah, and now obviously Peter was involved in a coup You know, we had a little sort of knifing in the Senate situation Where

You know that they did Kumi at PayPal. I kind of... Now did you all make peace after that? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was doing a lot of sort of risky moves that I think ultimately would have been successful. But I then went on a two-week trip, which was a dual money-raising trip and honeymoon.

I'd not done my honeymoon earlier in the year. So I was raising money while doing a honeymoon. How did that go over, by the way? It worked. It worked. There you go. It worked. I raised money. Yeah. And we had a honeymoon. There you go. So, yeah. But you don't want to be away from the battle when things are scary. So I was not there to assuage the concerns of the troops. And anyway, yeah.

We patch things up and have been friends nonetheless. And these days I'll stay at his house and stuff, so we're friends. And he's also invested in most of my companies.

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Please go to their website, supportifcj.org. That's one word, supportifcj.org. Or call 888-488-IFCJ, 888-488-IFCJ, or 888-488-4325 today. It's Ryan Seacrest here, looking for ways to feel your best in 2025. I want to share one of my biggest and best tips. When I want to feel my best, I make sure to check my gut health.

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The best way to understand all sides of an issue is to know all sides of an issue. Can't get that in the mainstream media, which is why you've got to listen to some Clay and Buck for another point of view. Buck, why are you going third person? Because, Clay, I think this ad is running in places that might not exactly align with all of our politics or even know who we are. It's impossible. But...

Maybe if it's true, I bet if they did listen, they'd end up agreeing with us on at least one issue, even if they secretly want admitted. Well, the only way they're going to find out is if they download the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton show podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever they get their pods. We're easy to find, unlike your wife at Costco.

Clay, you speak the truth, but we're already losing people. I think I gained one or two just now. In case you haven't noticed, we like to have a lot of fun as well as talk about what's going on in the world. Come hang with us today and every day at Clay and Buck. Download the iHeartRadio app, search out those names, Clay Travis, Buck Sexton, and come hang. All right, so 2002, you start SpaceX. Like, how do you start a rocket company? Like, what's the first day where you're like, I want to make rockets and I want to go to Mars? Like, what do you do on day one?

So I think you have to start with some sort of philosophical premise in order to be highly motivated, you have to have some philosophical foundation. In my case, it was that we want to expand the scope and scale of consciousness to better understand the nature of the universe.

And in order to expand consciousness, we need to go beyond one planet. If we're on one planet, there's too much risk. Hopefully, Earth civilization prospers very far into the future, but it may not. There's always some risk that we self-annihilate through nuclear war or that there's a big meteor that takes us out like the dinosaurs. There's always some risk if all your eggs are in one basket, so it's going to be better if we're a multi-planet species.

And then once we're a multi-planet species, the next step would be to be multi-stellar and have civilization on many different star systems. So in 2001, I didn't think that I could... I didn't think I could sell a rocket company. So I thought I'd take some of the money from PayPal. And in that case, I think it was...

about 180 million dollars after tax, something like that. And I thought, you know, I don't need 180 million dollars, so I'll spend a bunch of it on a philanthropic Mars mission to get the public excited about going back to Mars.

Or going to Mars, I should say. Yeah. Mars was always going to be the destination after the moon. Right. In fact, if you told people in 1969 that it would be 2025 and we've not even gone back to the moon, let alone... It's hard to believe. Let alone Mars, they'd be like, what happened? Did civilization collapse? Stop, yeah. Like, it would be incomprehensible that we've not been to Mars by now if you told people this after landing on the moon in 1969.

Why do you think in 50 years America never went back to the moon? Well, we destroyed the Saturn V rocket that could take people to the moon and had the space shuttle, which could only go to low Earth orbit. And then there really hasn't been anything to replace. No vehicle has been made since then that can go to the moon or to Mars until the SpaceX Starship rocket. So you can't go to Mars if you don't have the ride.

So I remember you and I first met in 2013 when I was a brand new baby senator. Yeah.

And I was still down in the basement office. They stick freshman senators in a basement office. It's kind of like hazing. Yeah, yeah. I was about to say, it sounds like it. There are a hundred Senate offices, but for six months you stay in the basement. Put you in your place. It's like wearing a beanie. They want you to know where you're supposed to be. You know, I got to say, now 13 years into it, I think there's a lot of wisdom to doing that. But you were down in the basement office. And I remember you were coming and sitting down with SpaceX. And at the time,

the Air Force was not letting you all bid to launch satellites. And so you were coming and saying, look, we got a company. I think we can do a really good job of this. And yet we're locked out of this. It's a little amazing to think the journey SpaceX has gone from then to now. Yes. It's hard to believe that this is all real. Because originally, it concerns me with my belief that we need to become a multi-planet species. I thought the only way to do that would be through NASA. So and I think I thought, well,

If I can just get the public excited about Mars, then they'll do a mission to Mars. And so initially, my thought was to have to send a small greenhouse with seeds and dehydrated nutrient gel, then land the greenhouse, hydrate the seeds, and you'd see the sort of money shot. The money shot would be green plants on a red background. I also recently learned that money shot has a different meaning in some other arenas, but...

Yeah, I'm glad you did too. It's a very different story. What I'm trying to say is the captivating shot would be the green plants on a red background. And then hopefully that would, if we did something like that, that would get the public excited about Mars, that would increase NASA's budget, and then we could send people to Mars. So your original dream was NASA to do this? Yes. Not you? No, the original plan was...

literally to take a bunch of the money from PayPal and I guess by some people's definition waste it with no profit on a non-profit thing. I wanted to spend a whole bunch of my money for free to get NASA's budget to be bigger so we could go to frigging Mars. Right. Wow. That's what I wanted.

That was the Holy Grail. That's what I wanted. I was like, damn it, why don't we go to Mars? That's what I wanted to know. When did it strike you, okay, you're going to have to do this if you want to? Well, I'll tell you, it gets crazier. All right, it gets crazier. So I couldn't afford any of the U.S. rockets because, as you know, the U.S. rockets are way too expensive. Boeing Lockheed rockets are crazy money. I didn't even, even with $180 million, there's no way I could have afforded two. How much were they back then? Well, the...

With the additional stage to get to Mars, it would have been about like 80 million. So technically, I could have afforded one of them. But I wanted to do two in case one of them didn't work. And then I didn't have enough money for that. And I was sort of prepared to...

you know, I don't know, waste half the money. And I figured if I had 90 million left, that'd be fine, you know, but ideally not all of it. So I went to Russia twice to try to buy ICBMs. How'd that go? And who do you call? The Russian rocket forces.

Do they sell ICBMs? Does that work? Yeah. You got to tell us a story that I want to know who I'm talking to. It turns out you can buy anything in Russia. Yeah. Please walk me down that. I want to know how you made that phone call. And when you get there, how did that work? And what do you tell your friends? Listen, I'm going to Russian advice and ICBMs. I might not return, you know, depending on the situation. Literally. Yeah. Yeah.

So it gets slightly less insane when you understand that the Russians had to demolish a bunch of their ICBMs because of, you know, salt talks. Because of basically an agreement between the United States and Russia to reduce the total number of ICBMs. Sure. Russia was actually obligated to...

scrap a bunch of their ICBMs. So you took the very biggest ICBMs, you could convert those into a rocket, add an additional stage and send something to Mars. So those are big enough with one more stage to get to Mars? To send a small payload to Mars, yeah. So the SS-18. So you try to buy ICBMs, do you succeed or no? Or do you figure out you got to build your own instead? They kept raising the price on me. So...

Because I figured, like, look, they're going to throw these things in the scrapyard anyway. You should get a really good deal, right? So the price started out at $4 million. Then the next conversation, they were at $8 million. Then the next conversation, they were at, like,

19 million and I'm like, this is before we signed a contract. By the way, was there another bidder or were you the only one trying to buy them? I think, I don't know if there were other bids, but they didn't mention any other bids. But I was like, man, if the price is increasing this much before the contract sign, I'm really going to get fleeced after the contract sign. So I got pretty frustrated there.

Actually, in some cases, we got into shouting matches in Moscow. Some guy's shouting at me in Russian. I'm shouting back at him in English with my interpreter slurring. That put it on really badly. I'm like, so you're all in. Stop rubbing me off. In Moscow. Yeah. So...

Man, I should have recorded that. That would have been wonderful. How many days were you there negotiating that first time? I mean, was this like ongoing? Yeah, yeah. This took place, these conversations took place over probably six months or so. Wow. So, and then the final trip there was with Mike Griffin, who later became NASA administrator. I actually realized in the course of this that my original premise was wrong, that I

that America actually has plenty of will to go to Mars, but it just needs a way to go to Mars that is affordable and that doesn't break the budget. - Well, as you know, we couldn't even get to the space station. We needed the Russians to get us to our own space station. - That was embarrassing. - It really was pitiful. - I'm not sure most Americans know just how much we were being fleeced. Like I think they got up to like $90 million a seat. - Yeah. - Wow. - Yeah. For a seat that cost them like 10 million. - That was pre-doge, obviously.

But it was the only ride that happened. It was before SpaceX. But $90 million a seat for a seat that cost them $10 million is high. Yeah. That's a lot of money. Yeah.

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So a few months ago, you and I were down in Boca Chica with the president for a Starship launch. And it is incredible what you built in Boca Chica. Five years ago, it was an empty beach.

At the southern tip of Texas. Basically a sandbar, yeah. And it's now a city and a factory where you're building a rocket ship a month with incredible precision. Yeah. But one of the things you said to me when we were down there that really stood out to me is you said your philosophy on intellectual property. I've talked to lots of CEOs. They're like, we fight to guard our IP. And you had a very different approach. What's your view of IP? Patents of the week.

Patents for those who innovate slowly. I literally do not know anyone else in business who would say something like that. Like it was a startling. And what Elon said down there is he said, look,

This stuff, I assume everyone will steal everything, but by the time they steal it, we'll be five generations beyond and it won't matter. Yes. At Tesla, we actually open sourced a lot of patents. So we said our patents are, anyone can use them for free. Really? Yeah. We only do patents at Tesla to avoid patent trolls causing trouble. So...

We'll try to look ahead and say, "Okay, patent trolls are going to file patents to block certain things. We'll file patents and then open source the patent, make it free." I mean it when I say patents for the week. Now, there are a few cases in, say, with pharmaceuticals where it might cost you a billion dollars to do a phase three human file, but then subsequently the drug is very cheap to manufacture. So cases, there are some, in my opinion, which is massively reduced what can be patented.

And because the whole point of patenting is to maximize innovation, not inhibit it. And in my opinion, maybe a controversial opinion, most patents inhibit innovation. They do not help it.

But there are cases, I do want to single out cases like where such as a phase three clinical trial that might cost a billion dollars, but then the drugs thereafter cost a few dollars to a manufacturer. And if you can then immediately copy those drugs for a few dollars, no one will pay for the billion dollar phase three. There's a free rider problem. Free rider problem. Yeah. Exactly. So you have to address the free rider problem. But other than that, there should be no patents. Ideas are easy. You want ideas to flow maximum to people to get there faster and do things bigger. Yeah.

The idea is the easy part. The execution is the hard part. As the old saying goes, it's 1% inspiration, if not less than 1%, and 99% perspiration. But I'll say the perspiration part, you're really damn good at also, because you're making, you know, the companies you're building...

are actually building stuff they're building cars they're building spaceships they're building things that if they don't work it's a real problem and and yeah the precision you manufacture things with how do you get that level of precision how do you get how do you build a culture you're not you're amazing at thinking outside the box but but what's interesting is you're you may even be better at execution which is how do you execute so effectively

Well, I take a physics first principles approach to everything. It's not as though I wanted to insource manufacturing. It's just that I was unable to outsource it effectively. So the idea at the beginning of Tesla was that we would outsource almost all the manufacturing

But then it turned out there were no good companies to outsource manufacturing to. It really wasn't feasible. Outsource manufacturing actually is the exception of the rule. And just over time, we had to insource almost everything for Tesla and same for SpaceX. I became very good at manufacturing because I had to. There was no choice. At this point, I might know more about manufacturing now.

than any any human ever has because i've done so many i've manufactured so many different things in so many different arenas um i think probably more than anyone ever has look that's that sounds like an astonishing statement but it's not a crazy statement and you're somehow running tesla and running spacex and running x and running the boring company and running neural link and doing doge how much do you sleep in a given night

About six hours on average. So about six. So that's... It wouldn't have shocked me if you said three or four. So the next question is, how many hours do you work a day? I work almost every waking hour. And Ben, he's not kidding at that. Like when Elon and I were first getting to know each other, I suggested, I said, hey, let's grab dinner sometime. And I don't know if you remember what you said. You said, I don't eat dinner. I don't have...

Social dinners, really. Right. I mean, that, yeah. I mean, you obviously eat food, but the idea of like- You're not going to a restaurant for two hours. But the idea of like, I don't, but it was just kind of matter of fact, why would I go to dinner? Like, you work. Yeah. I literally just thought I'll have lunch and dinner brought during meetings and continue the meeting. How many nights have you slept at your offices, you think, your career percentage-wise? Yeah.

Where you say, I just got to take this nap basically because my body forces me to and I got to get back to work fast and efficiently without going somewhere else. Well, I guess it started out with the first company, Zip2, which is a terrible name, but the first internet company, Zip2.

We were able to rent an office, which was like in a leaky attic, essentially, for $500 a month. And the cheapest apartment we could find was $800 a month. And we only had about $5,000 between my brother and I. So we're like, we'll just stay in the office. So we got some couches that converted into beds. And we'd...

kind of sleep at night and then we just have to like uh turn the beds back into couches uh before anyone came and then we'd shower at the YMCA down the road and so that went that that that literally was the for several months what we did I was in great shape you know uh workout at the Y um I still remember that that YMCA uh at uh Page Mill Al Camino uh in Palo Alto

so that was a long time ago so it's been i don't know i've never thought to count it but uh several hundred days maybe i don't know so you're now the richest man on earth do you still sleep in the office well that's true maybe mars we'll we'll find someone else but i think if so if someone is a sovereign head of a country they're de facto richer by a lot do you still sleep at the office now

I have sometimes slept at the office, yeah. Don't forget, we do this show Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Hit that subscribe or auto-download button from the White House. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for being with us on Verdict. We'll see you guys back here in a couple of days.

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