The Truth with Lisa Boothe: Freedom, Rebellion & the Real Story of Independence with Dr. Brion McClanahan
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Well, first off, happy Independence Day. I hope everyone is having an amazing day. I hope you're spending time with the people you love. I hope you're spending time with your friends, your family. Maybe you're on a trip. Maybe you're just doing a staycation, or maybe you even have to work. But I hope it's a great day. Nonetheless, as we celebrate Independence Day, as we celebrate America's independence from a monarchy, we look today at what has really transpired over the past few years, particularly during COVID. And I

I talk about this a lot on the show, but it was so eye opening for me. I'm sure it was for a lot of you guys at home of just tyranny is here, right? We're not immune to tyranny. Of course, we weren't back when this nation was founded, but we're certainly not today.

And if you look back at the founding generation or founding fathers, they didn't put up with it, right? They weren't putting up with this oppressive regime from far away, trying to strangle their way of life, trying to impose on their way of life, trying to dictate to them their way of life. So why are we putting up with it today?

Right. Why are we putting up with with our government? I'm not saying we don't have to resort to, obviously, the tactics that our founding generation resorted to. But there are other ways to fight back. There are other ways to fight back locally, to fight back against government, to fight back against tyranny and to resist tyranny.

a little bit. So today, what I want to do is sort of revisit the foundations of America, revisit our founding fathers, revisit the founding generation. You know, why was America born?

What happened in the lead up before the Declaration of Independence? What happened to that lead up before July 4th, 1776? So we're going to get into that with a historian. His name is Dr. Brian McClanahan. He has his own podcast, The Brian McClanahan Show. You can check it out on Apple. I listened to like five yesterday. It's super interesting. He gets into a lot of real world issues, today's issues from a historical perspective. And he just has really interesting takes on

He's a really smart guy. So he's also the author and co-author of six books. He's written books like The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Founding Fathers, The Founding Fathers Guide to the Constitution. He's a faculty member at the Tom Woods Liberty Classroom. He received a bachelor's degree in history from Salisbury University, a master's in history from the University of South Carolina, as well as his PhD in history from the University of South Carolina. It's just a really interesting guy. So today, we're

On this Independence Day, we are going to talk about individual liberty. We're going to talk about freedom. We're going to talk about the birth of America, why this country is special, why this country needs to be preserved, and what we can do to preserve it. So I hope you enjoy this 4th of July Independence Day special with Dr. Brian McClanahan. ♪

Dr. Brian McClanahan, thanks so much for joining The Truth with Lisa Booth. I appreciate your time. Well, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. So obviously this is for the Independence Day special. You know, we've sort of seen a lot of narratives that we believe to be true have been contradicted and shown to not be true. And a lot of what we thought we were insulated and immune from in America, like tyranny, we saw during COVID that we are actually not. So I kind of wanted to revisit a little bit of that.

American history or nation's foundings and sort of how far we've gone from that beginning. And I thought you'd be the perfect person for this episode. Well, I appreciate you having me on. Yes. I mean, it's when you look at what's happened in America over the last couple of years and really in the last hundred plus years and where we've where we've

come from and where we are today, there's a dramatic difference between 2022 and 1775 and what Americans were willing to accept in 1775 and what we're willing to accept today. If the founding generation were dropped in 2022, they'd look at all of us and say, what are you doing? You know, we were willing to do far more for far less.

than what you're willing to suffer through now. And so it's a really important history lesson to get all of this right, because if Americans really knew the story of independence, I think they would be looking at things today dramatically different. Well, and what's interesting is I was listening to your podcast. It's really good. People should go take a look, subscribe to the Brian McClanahan show. You sort of challenge a lot of groupthink, orthodoxy that a lot of people say, a lot of points about history that may or may not be true that we've been taught today.

incorrectly as well. So you use founding generation instead of just talking about the founding fathers. Why do you make that distinction? Well, because if you just say the founding fathers, people think it's the 55 men who drafted the Constitution, or it's maybe six people. I mean, I call them the big six. You know, it's Washington, Adams, Hamilton, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin. And of course, that's incorrect. You had an entire generation of Americans through 13 states

that were interested in these principles that we all think about today independence liberty all these things and so when you talk about the constitution for example uh... the constitution was a ratified by fifty five guys it was ratified by thirteen states and you had a large public discussion about what that meant and so there's a lot of people in that generation of founders that we wouldn't recognize state for example roger sherman of connecticut

who was so important in that period of time, but nobody knows who he is. Or even people that you might recognize their name, like George Mason of Virginia, but...

You don't really know much about them. So we're John Dickinson of Pennsylvania. I mean, this is a bigger issue than just a few guys sitting in Philadelphia in 1787 or even just the delegates to the Continental Congress in 1776. There's so much more to this, and I think we need to be comprehensive. And when we talk about this generation of people, there was a variety of viewpoints, but at the end of the day, they were all committed to one thing.

particular principle and that was a limited central authority and when they're talking about the british in the relationship between the british in the american colonies and of course that would translate later into the constitution the articles of confederation the declaration so uh... they're all committed to that and also that to that principle of independence and i think that's something we often forget

How much of what we are taught about history is actually true? Well, that's a big question. When you think about the founding period, there's a lot that people get right, even the leftist historians, there are things they get right. But I would say that the real problem in America with teaching history is politicizing everything. If we're talking about the 18th century, it has to be political. And what I mean by that is there have

these these people have to be twenty first century americans if they're not then we're just going to discard them and this is the entire agenda going after people like washington jefferson now for things that they did that we'll do today or views that they held that we don't hold today but uh... that's the real problem it's it's saying okay well

Washington's a great man. Well, wait a second, because he owned slaves, he's not really that great of a man. Or Jefferson's a great man. Well, wait a second, because he owned slaves and he's not a great man. Or because he held views on race that we don't hold today. So this is the real issue. It's not that

we're taught things incorrectly it's that everything is politicized and and has an agenda behind all of it so instead of just using history as a as a point we can say well these people were great let's look at what they said and we know that they have that they do things are say things that we don't necessarily agree with today but what do they what do they offer us for americans in the twenty first century we have to discard them because they are not twenty first century americans and that's that's called presentism and i think that's the real issue with historical profession

That makes a lot of sense, a ton of sense, actually. You know, before we kind of get into abbreviated tick tock of what led up to the Declaration of Independence, what do we typically get wrong about the American Revolution? Well, I think one of the most important things is that it was simply about taxation. And of course, that's an issue. But the real core issue leading into independence was this idea that somehow the parliament could legislate for the colonies in all cases whatsoever. That's what Tom Paine said in the American crisis. That was the issue.

They were certainly willing to concede that Parliament could regulate international trade or defend the colonies, but what they didn't want Parliament doing was going in and saying, "Okay, these are the taxes you have to have, and these are the... this is the currency you have to use, these are the things you have to do in the colonies," because, of course, the colonies have their own legislatures, and the Parliament... there was no representation in Parliament for these colonies, so

there was a violation of the ancient rights of Englishmen. That's what Patrick Henry talked about. It was this idea that somehow Parliament had supremacy over these colonies when they simply didn't have any role in that Parliament. So when we simplify this period of time or make it into about lofty rights

that were fabricated out of thin air that we do today, the proposition of nation equality, these kind of things. I mean, they certainly talked about that stuff, but at the core, it was simply about making sure that they could govern themselves, and they were firmly committed to the Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights. It was an

anglo-american tradition they were fighting for so uh... i think that's the the major misconception that it was just a simple no taxation uh... we would want to be taxed or you know we're willing to fight for some uh... some other kind of principle that units it's a bit so uh... something in the air that just doesn't make any sense it was certainly a commitment to this idea of local self-government that they were more concerned about than anything else what

And to that point, did it start with the Stamp Act? Because I know you had the Sugar Act the year before, I believe, but the Stamp Act, I believe, was a tax on items within the colonies, which to your point was sort of this government interference from a government far away that they did not have representation, they did not have input. Was that sort of the turning point? And when that relationship changed and the role of government changed?

within these colonies? - Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you point out the Sugar Act a year before 1764, but by 1765, when the Parliament passes the Stamp Act and the colonies react to that in the way they did, it was exactly what you said. Well, you know what? You're not gonna tax us internally when that's breaking over 100 years of precedent. I mean, you go back to the era of salutary neglect, that's what it's called. The Parliament let the colonies alone. They could govern themselves.

and so that developed a system in their mind uh... precedent for governance and so when the stamp act comes about the uh... the colonial legislatures say you know we're just not going to

this is unconstitutional. And of course, the resistance was what we would call today nullification. They actually used it. That was born out of it. We're just not going to enforce the Stamp Act, and we're going to tell our courts not to enforce. We're not going to have anybody charged with breaking the Stamp Act. So the resistance was, okay, you can pass a law in Parliament, we're just not going to enforce it here in the colonies. And you saw this, of

across what became the United States. It wasn't just Massachusetts, but it was in Virginia. There was certainly resistance in every colony to the Stamp Act, and that's because they viewed it as an unconstitutional measure. And think about all the things we have today that are unconstitutional. People just live with it. Okay, yeah, fine. They can pass it. We'll just go along with it. But that would not be the founding response to it.

Or, you know, you look at COVID, it's not even law. You just have executive order dictating how we live our lives or shutting businesses down that people will put everything into their whole livelihoods, their ability to feed their kids without a blink of the eye. But then, you know, but you can ride in the street. That First Amendment right is, you know, worthy, but not going to church. So whatever.

Yeah. So I think a lot of people can sort of sympathize with that. So to be clear, you know, before sort of, you know, like the Stamp Act and, you know, there's a bunch of different actions and provocations that the British government takes against the colonists. But so there was really sort of a system of self-governance to a certain degree, even though they are part of the British government.

Is that correct? Absolutely. I mean, every colony had its own legislature. In fact, the first legislature in North America was established in 1619 in Virginia. And that's the other 1619, right? We have the 1619 Project. But the real importance of 1619 was that first legislature in Virginia, an elected legislature. And so you had...

local government here and i think that's what we met now of course every colony by the by the eighteenth century had a governor world governor that was appointed by the crown but still these colonies had the ability to legislate for themselves and and uh... they were very upset about the fact that you had parliament stepping in

and saying okay well you know what we spent all this money on uh... on defending you during the during the french indian war and so now you're gonna pay for that and we're gonna tell you how you're gonna pay for it and so this was the issue it was legislating for them in all cases whatsoever and and campaign called it here and he said that's it if if we can't legislate for ourselves

If we can't dictate what kind of legislation we'll accept for ourselves, and there's no other definition but tyranny than that. And so when you look back at this period, it was, and you talked about COVID and everything else. I mean, again, we're willing to suffer in the United States today for,

far more than what the founding generation was. I mean, they were not happy about a small tax that was being levied against them, against their will, and they were willing to declare their independence over it. And how much are we willing to accept today? How much of elitism sort of came into play? Like, even though, like, George Washington was rich, he's not a British noble, right? He probably still felt like they were thumbing their nose at him, looking down upon him. How much of that sort of had to play in here?

Well, that's a good question. When you think about the leadership in the colonies, just to use Virginia as an example, I mean, a lot of these people believe they were in so many ways kind of a...

a part of this old gentrification system in Great Britain. I mean, you have the distressed cavaliers that came over to Virginia and they established plantations. But certainly there was an anti-monarchical stance in America. I wouldn't say it was dramatically democratic the way we think of it today, but

but they were certainly more democratic than what you would find in Great Britain. As far as the elitist position, I mean, they certainly didn't care for the hereditary monarchy. At least a portion of the founding generation, they didn't care for it. There were those that, of course, did. I mean, there were Tories in America, so they were certainly fine with the monarchy, but

of those that were interested in the penance of me that that attack on the king or this hereditary system was something that in like and this is why when there was an executive propose in philadelphia in seventeen eighty seven they all sat in some styles for for a minute they said you know what my gosh uh... this is we're gonna get a kate and we didn't want that and so we look at your list of the particles of confederation there's no monarchy and that there's no executive so

That was something they were certainly concerned about. And that elite, I don't know if it was necessarily elitism, but they certainly didn't like the hereditary monarchical system to a great extent. Quick commercial break. Back with Dr. Brian McClanahan on the other side. Let's face it. Health care has gotten complicated. Delayed appointments, insurance hassles, out-of-stock pharmacies. That's why more and more families are switching to all-family pharmacy. Your go-to pharmacy for everyday meds, emergency kits, and essentials.

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Talk about sort of like the provocations, these acts where that revolutionary spirit just started to build up. You know, we talked about the Stamp Act. We talked about the Sugar Act. You know, you got the Tea Act, the Townshend Acts, all these different things. You know, talk about sort of that that build up and that increase, just frustration with the heavy hand of, you know, the British government kind of putting it down on their necks. Sure. Well, I mean, if you if you one of my favorite characters in all that is Sam Adams.

because Sam Adams was the guy that we all know this person. They stand on the corner or nowadays it's on the internet and they say, you know, it's going to get bad. It's going to get worse. Just wait. It's going to get worse. It doesn't matter what's going on. This things are going to get worse. Just wait and see. Just watch. Take my word for it.

And so if you look at 1765 and the Stamp Act and the response to that, it actually worked. I mean, the colonists figured out that if they could go after the British and the parliament in their wallet, it was going to help. And so the response was either nullification or non-importation. They set up ways to hurt the empire economically.

But of course, by 1767, the Parliament's doubling down. And then by 1770, you see things get pretty bad, right? I mean, you're five years away from the ultimate break, but

You had a period of law between 1770 and 1772 when there wasn't a whole lot going on, but by 1773 again you see these bills by Parliament ramping up. And this is the North Parliament. They certainly believed the colonies were their subjects and they needed to pay their fair share and do what the Parliament told them to do.

And, you know, you look at things like the Intolerable Acts, which eventually came about because of the Tea Act and the response to that. One thing we miss about the Tea Act, by the way, let me just say this, is that it wasn't really a tax on tea that the colonists were concerned about. It was establishing a monopoly. Only certain partners could trade that British East India tea, and so they thought that was a violation of good economic sense and, of course, creating a royal monopoly in the colonies, and so that's why they resisted it. But

When you look at the Intangible Acts, I mean, shutting down the Massachusetts government, saying that you're going to be essentially part of Canada, which at that time was, where they were linking them in, that was Catholic. And so you had this religious resistance there as well. But

That was the real issue. It was taking away those colonial charters, essentially, and saying you're going to be under us directly under our thumb. That was the point when I think everyone realized, OK, this is going to get really bad. And if we're willing to accept this now, there's no turning back. I mean, they're going to say to us that they can abolish our legislatures. They can they can do whatever they want to us.

You had in Virginia, right, that the world governor shut down the legislature of the House of Burgesses, and so they went and met in the tavern and said, okay, we're going to meet in Raleigh Tavern. We're going to legislate anyways because you can't annihilate our legislature. So that was the real point when you have these intolerable acts, even though they were directed online.

only at Massachusetts. The other colonies reacted to it and saying, well, if it's going to happen there, it's going to happen here. And of course, Sam Adams has proven correct. He said, just wait. This is all going to get bad. And eventually, and eventually it did. Well, I've got a lot of people saying that about where we are today, too, but we'll get to that in a little bit. You know,

How important were things like the Boston Tea Party, obviously a massive FU to the British government, and just spurring that public sentiment of riling people up to being like, you know what, it's on? Right. I mean, the Boston Tea Party, in terms of propaganda, was very important. You had, of course, Paul Revere involved in creating images of this thing. But when you look at the actual massacre itself, the term massacre, I mean, it was...

It wasn't really a massacre with the loss of life, but the way that they could sell this to the public was important. And of course, the colonists were somewhat responsible for this. I mean, they were harassing the British soldiers or throwing ice at them. And there was a lot of question about whether there was even an order given to fire by the British or if this was somebody staying in the shadows yelling fire. Of course, there's also a fire, an actual physical fire in Boston at that point,

and so maybe somebody got a little itchy trigger finger and they fired. But the important part about it, too, was the response by John Adams, who thought that these soldiers needed a fair trial, because if they didn't get a fair trial, then the Parliament could look at them and say, well, I mean, we're going to ship you back over to London to stand trial. So

uh... for anything else so he want to ensure that these soldiers got a fair trial and they did he actually was able to get several them acquitted so uh... that that response to his interesting out of the said that to great expense of its of his career at least at that point but uh... in terms of propaganda it's huge because now you have dead people in the streets

And there were other there was another event in New York City where you had a similar kind of, you know, riot. And there was some there was some bloodshed there, too. So that I mean, that part of that period of time, that little bit of violence. But again, things calmed down after that for a couple of years. And then it was back and it ramped back up again leading into 1775. Well, and you also had, you know, other public acts of rebellion, like the Boston Tea Party protests.

as well. Absolutely. I mean, the Boston Tea Party, there are many tea parties. That's a fun part of this, too. The Boston Tea Party were the most conspicuous where they threw the tea into the harbor. But you actually had tea parties in Maryland. You had one there where the citizens of Maryland took all the tea off the ship and then burned it.

And of course, the funny thing about that is they sold it, right? They didn't just throw it in the harbor. They took it and they sold it and they used the money to finance their activities against the crown. So that was the more wise thing to do than just throwing it in the harbor. But the response to the Tea Act was not just in Boston. It was, again, across the colonies. So these public resistance to these unconstitutional and tolerable acts was something very important in leading up to the war. And

Again, when we think about today, we had the tea party movement for a little while and people throwing little tea bags in the water. I mean, that's funny, but I don't know if Americans are as committed today as the founding generation was to standing up for things that they considered to be their liberties. But I am encouraged by what happened with COVID and people finally saying, enough, we're just not going to wear the masks. We're not going to do this. We're not going to abide by your stupid edicts.

These things are illegal. They're unconstitutional. I think that was encouraging and also the response from various states in saying, you know, federal government, you really want to have this power. We're going to do what we want to do in Florida, for example, and Ron DeSantis. So that was the spirit of independence. And I think that's something, again, that's lacking throughout most of America, but it is still there in many parts of the United States. And that's a good thing to see.

And also, I think Omicron helped, too, because basically all these people who think they thought they could hide in their basements for two years got COVID. And then they're like, OK, well, I don't care anymore. It's sort of like deprogrammed these crazy people. Yeah.

Right. As more and more people got it, they figured out it was a bad cold. And, of course, you know, you can't minimize it. Initially, it was pretty rough on a lot of people and a lot of elderly people in particular. But, you know, our response to it, the government's response to it, was very much a British-type response initially. And I think that's...

that's something we missed in all this. And of course not everyone did, but it's, yeah, you're right. As people started saying, this is not something that we should fear. And they got back and said, forget it. We're just going to live our lives. And, and I think that was another great part of this whole thing at the end of the day. But to your point, you know, thank God for people like governor DeSantis fighting against the federal government and saying, we're just not going to do this year. This makes no sense. And having the guts and, you know, the fortitude to do that. So, you know, you got that content,

The Continental Congress starts meeting in 1774. And then we've got the declaration, the signing of the Declaration of Independence on July 4th, 1776, ratified by the Second Continental Congress. Between the first and then the Second Continental Congress, what sort of, because my understanding is like the first one, not everyone was really, it was more of just kind of like sending a message saying, look, this is sort of what we want. It wasn't really at that point of saying, okay,

you know, we're full throttle, we're, you know, we're all in on declaring independence. So what kind of, well, first of all, you know, correct me if I'm wrong. Secondly, what sort of transpired between that first one and then declaring independence that sort of just, you know, for the people kind of hanging out, hanging on the side saying, I don't know, brought them over the edge? Right. Well, you're exactly right about the First Continental Congress. And John Adams complained they weren't going to do anything.

uh... and so you have uh... they get together and in philadelphia and they say all right we'll look let's let's talk about what's happening in the course they did adopt will became the suffolk resolves which were as i mentioned before nullification process we're gonna nullify any unconstitutional laws but they weren't willing to break at that point

And I think that's because, I mean, as Patrick Henry pointed out in his Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death speech, I mean, this was something we were more inclined to do. People are inclined to suffer while evils are sufferable. I mean, so...

They were generally willing to accept, American people were generally willing to accept these unconstitutional invasions while they could tolerate them, right? So this was something that I think in 1774 they weren't so committed to independence yet. Certainly there were people that were. I mean, again,

patrick henry already was he considered virginia independent uh... much much earlier than this i mean it's early seventeen sixty five uh... but in sam adams but i think for the most part you had been the founding generation they were still willing to put the brakes on and i think the real change came when

the king rejected their pleas for an olive branch. This was John Dickinson. He writes the olive branch petition. And, of course, George III gets this at the same time he gets some mail, intercepted mail, where John Adams says, well, nobody really believes this thing anyways.

and so george was not willing at that point to accept any type of compromise in uh... and then of course you get seventeen seventy five and you get the invasion of lexington concord i think that's what really turn people around they said okay well if they're gonna actually march in and try to seize our arms which is what they were doing uh... that was the point but there's no turning back and uh... so you get me i was almost a year before the declaration so

By 1776, it was a full break. And you still even had people in Dickinson wasn't going to support independence, even in 1776. You still have people that weren't on board with it yet. But in realizing that, I think most people realized when there was an armed conflict in Massachusetts, and then, of course, you had other events before 17, before the Declaration as well, this was it.

We can't turn back. We can't say, oops, sorry, we're just going to say we're going to stay in the empire. There was no way that was going to happen because the parliament was going to do everything they could to force the colonies to bend to their will. And the king was not going to support them. And so I think they believed by that point they really had no choice by 1776 except independence. So like for the folks like Dickerson that you just mentioned, was it loyalty? Was it favoritism?

Was it fear, sort of what was holding them back from being completely on board with a revolution? Well, I think it was a mix of both. I mean, John Dickinson was a very wealthy man in Delaware and Pennsylvania. He had a number of houses, of course, all of which were burned except his plantation in Delaware. And they were loyal to the crown. I mean, it'd be no different than any of us sitting here today and saying, my gosh, I mean, that would be a big decision for any of us. Do we want independence?

We've been American citizens for all these years, however old you are. And we've been pro-United States for all this time. And that's a big decision for people to make. And it's not one to be taken lightly. And I think that was the issue for many of them. They weren't certain if they wanted that

to take that step. And of course, there was some fear, too. They knew that if they signed their name to that declaration or voted for it, that could be construed as treason. And so you could forfeit your life and your property in that case. So this is a big decision to make. And we take this now very lightly. We have July 4th, and everyone shoots off fireworks. We have hot dogs and ball games. But when that decision was made in Philadelphia on July 2nd, in fact,

And they sat there in stunned silence. Did we really just do this? Did all of these people just vote by state for independence? And there was not a big cheer and this was going to be a big party. This was, oh, my gosh, what did we just do? And it was a heavy decision for all the reasons you mentioned. But I think that they realized the gravity of the situation and what was going to happen and what could potentially happen if they lost that push for independence.

Of course, it's really heady what they just did, right? I mean, they're declaring war. I mean, they're going to go to war. They're sending their family members, their neighbors, the people they love to war. I mean, that's a huge, huge thing. Absolutely. It's not something to take lightly. And, you know,

you know, when you look at the cost, when they send the declaration and they pledge their lives or fortunes and their sacred honor to this, they really meant it. I think that's not something that we can just flippantly disregard. So many men sacrificed everything for that. And, you know, I often talked about the minute men, you know, they're in Massachusetts at Lexington and Concord. Imagine you're in your bed, it's

middle of the night and you hear a rider coming down the road and the regulars are coming out and you have to get up, grab your musket and head out the door to go confront the regulars

the regulars of the British army, which is one of the best armies in the world. I mean, maybe only the French were better. It's questionable at that point. They're both about the same. So here you are, a militiaman fighting against a regular army, and that's something we don't really think about. These men were not trained to be soldiers like the British, and so...

Now, when you think about the Battle of Bunker Hill and the casualties that these militia inflicted on the regulars there, but then you move forward in time to the Battle of Long Island and how the British and the Hessians just annihilated the American forces and what Washington had to... He was crying. He was weeping as he's watching his men just get plowed over by the British. And this is a really difficult time and a really difficult time for a lot of people and a hard decision to make. And so...

I don't think we can ever say enough about these men who were willing to walk in knee-deep snow at the Battle of Trenton to cross the Delaware River. All the things, all the deprivations in Valley Forge and in the South where you had...

in Charleston, patriots executed by the British just because they supported the cause. I mean, this is really hard stuff. And so this was not something that these people took lightly, and we should really celebrate them for this if we really valued independence.

Do you think they would have won if France hadn't gotten involved? Probably not. The French breaking the blockade and, of course, sending in some reinforcements there late in the war was certainly beneficial. And Yorktown would not have happened without the French. So I don't think that there's any way the United States can win without it. And of course, they

You know, they knew that. I think they knew that if they didn't get some type of international support, this war was going to be over and they were going to lose and all of these men who signed the Declaration were going to go down as traitors.

and we would be looking at an entirely different situation, and we wouldn't have a United States today. So the French were valuable, and of course, what did they get out of it? Just a whole bunch of debt and then their own revolution. So the byproduct for the French, the aftermath for the French, was not what I think they wanted, but of course, it's what we wanted at the end of the day.

Well, and obviously, you know, we celebrate Independence Day. We celebrate that declaration of independence. You know, what is the significance of it from your perspective as a historian? Well, for me, it's the last paragraph. Everyone focuses on the second and the line, all men, we hold these streets to be self-evident, all men are created equal. But for me, it's the last paragraph which declared that these were free and independent states because that sets the basis for the entire structure of the American government from that point forward.

you think about the articles of the federation where you had they'd said it states were independent you will need to the constitution the way it was sold to the states was that we have a federal republic in the state still have powers all the powers not delegated to the center and so we have this reserve powers idea that comes out of the declaration in you have to understand jefferson of the declaration called great britain a state and so it was the state of great britain and you had thirteen independent states and so each state

could do all the acts and things which independent states may have right to. He said it. And so you had 13 countries that were unified in their opposition to the British. They would come together in a federal union that was basically modeled after what they were living under before, right? The central authority could regulate commerce and defense, international commerce and defense, and then with the Constitution, commerce between the states.

And that was it. I mean, everything else is up to the states. All the things that we talk about today that we wring our hands over are really state issues at the end of the day. And the problem is that we have people focus so much on the center and we need one size fits all government for everything. And that's again, that's legislating for us in all cases whatsoever. That's not what the founding generation would have wanted. So for me, it's that principle in that last paragraph that really matters moving forward in American government.

Do you think that will happen naturally after COVID? I mean, for instance, I left New York City because I wanted to live freely as an American and move to Florida for that very purpose. And we've seen a lot of this migration. Red states are getting redder, like Florida is officially a red state. When you look at registered Republicans in this state, do you think that separation is sort of underway in a way that it hasn't been?

Yeah, absolutely. I think COVID did a lot to do that. People are, you know, I have people, listeners all the time on my show because this is the theme of the show is think locally, act locally, right? Instead of think globally, act locally, you got to think locally and act locally. So you can change your life at the local level. And it's something that people don't realize. You know, you look at protests at the Supreme Court now, and if you, whatever your position on those are, and I know we're talking to conservatives, so people would laugh at these protesters, but

what kind of impact do you think five, 10 people are going to have in the Supreme court steps? But if they went to their state Capitol, that would be a larger impact. Or they went to their, if they went to their city council, it'd be a larger impact. And so, uh,

When we start talking about this idea of decentralization and how important Ron DeSantis is for the future of Florida, I hope he stays governor of Florida. And I know that people want to be president, but we need 50 Ron DeSantis. That's what we really need. And that would make it to where Joe Biden would virtually be irrelevant. If we had states that actually stood up and said, you know what, you only have these powers and we're not going to let you have any others.

The government really doesn't have, the central government really doesn't have the ability to enforce all the things that they do. And people recognize that in the 19th century as the idea of non-commandeering. They can pass all the legislation they want, but they don't have the resources to enforce all this stuff. The states are going to have to do it all. So if the states say, forget it, we're just not doing it,

It changes the whole ballgame. And so I think people are waking up to this, you know, and with the mask mandates and all these other things that happened during COVID and the governor saying, we're just not going to keep our state open. We're just not going to do those things. You can have whatever you want in California. You can have whatever you want in Massachusetts or New York. But we're going to do what we want to do in Florida or Alabama or Montana or wherever it was.

We're going to take things differently. And so, again, that spirit of this resistance to unconstitutional government, I think, is starting to manifest itself a little better. And people are voting with their feet, as you said, going to different states. Quick break. More on the founding generation on the other side.

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Fast forward to the Constitution. So ratified in 1788 and operation since 1789. So Democrats like to say we have a democracy. Republicans say we have a constitutional republic.

Why does that distinction matter? And sort of what do you make of that debate that is always happening in our country? Well, I mean, the term democracy is a loaded term. What kind of democracy? Do we have a representative democracy? Do we have a direct democracy? I mean, what do we really have? The founding generation was committed to democracy, but it was always with a check, right? They didn't really trust democracy.

mass popular democracy because they didn't think that people had enough information or were well educated enough to make these decisions oftentimes. That's why you see in the Constitution itself there's only one really democratic part of the Constitution and that is the House of Representatives.

Otherwise, the Senate was designed to be the state check on the entire system. The states chose the senators and of course through the legislatures themselves, but the states did that originally. And then of course the president is elected by the electoral college, not direct vote. You've got the federal court system, which is all appointed. So there's a,

whole lot of anti-democratic stuff in the constitution because they just didn't really believe that majoritarian rule was always the best thing and they even said it uh... after the constitution was was written and it was going to ratification there was a lot of discussion about democracy and how this was going to be a check on rampant democracy they thought democracy was ruining the states they thought it was the the bane of good government so

These distinctions to make, you know, we don't have a democracy, but I think the best term is a federal republic with representative government, not direct democracy. And there were others that were concerned about what majoritarian rule could do, right? If it's 50 people, if you have 100 people or 101 people and 51 people get to rule the other 50, is that really good government or is that?

that tyranny. I mean, because those 50 people can be abused by 51 people. And that's I mean, we don't really think about these things nowadays, but certainly they did. They understood that you could have a bad government even with democracy. And so you had to have some checks on that. Which is why we have things like the Electoral College.

Exactly right. I mean, it's the Electoral College kept the states in the system. It allowed for another layer from the popular vote. We didn't count the popular vote until until the 1820s. Right. I mean, nobody even knew what it was. It didn't matter. It only mattered what the Electoral College voted and voted.

uh... that was certainly there to ensure that there was some more educated person so to speak making a decision about who's going to president of states and but the presidency was actually we we hear to that the way was actually designed the president would almost be irrelevant here for foreign policy uh... to receive ambassadors to make appointments to make recommendations but congress at all the power and uh... that's something that we do congress wants to hide today we have executive government because congress allows it to happen

So you need to be talking about Congress and what Congress needs to do and take their own power back from the executive. It's very difficult to do, but

It's something that I think needs to be done in the future moving forward. That makes a ton of sense. You know, we're talking about the founding generation and we've sort of touched on it throughout the conversation. But just get into how far are we today from what America was supposed to be? I think almost 180 degrees. When you look at 1789, when the U.S. Congress meets for the first time and we have the Constitution passed,

And the way that was sold to the states, I use that term because it was a ratification process where they actually had to sell this thing. We had this new constitution. Not everyone was on board. What are we going to do? How is this thing going to work? And the opponents of the document were talking about

We're going to have a government that was going to be oppressive, it was going to abuse the states, it was going to do all kinds of illegal things. And those who supported the proponents of the document insisted, no, it won't. Just look, you can only do these things and then everything else is left to the states. So

if you just take that ratification process and then look at where we are in everything is centralized everything is washington d_c_ everything all the things the general government does that are completely unconstitutional uh... i think they would be the opponents would feel like they're vindicated well we told you so and the proponents would have you know egg on their face because this is not the constitution that they sold during the ratification process

But it's what we ultimately got. And so I think that the so-called anti-federalists were prescient in what was going to happen. And I mean, we are not anywhere near what was sold to the states in 1787 and 1788. Well, I think one thing that the Trump administration really opened a lot, I mean, I guess we saw it a little bit during the Obama administration with like the IRS targeting conservatives and things of that nature, or just like spying on the Senate Intel Committee and reporters and the things like that. But

We really saw it come to a head during the Trump administration, sort of this administrative state, this deep state, these bureaucrats sort of subverting the will of the American people. How do you scale back government at this point? Is it too late?

when you look at something like that? Well, I mean, I don't think you can reform Washington, D.C. But again, there's certainly cracks in what it can do. And you can even look at things the left does. For example, sanctuary cities, which is something that when you talk about immigration, a lot of these sanctuary city laws were written in the 1980s. And it was, you know what we're going to do here? We're not going to enforce the federal government coming in and rounding up aliens. And

They can come in all they want and do it, but we're just not going to use state resources or local resources to do it. And you know what happened? They didn't have the resources to go do it.

And so they just, the state just said, nah, we're just not going to do these things. And I think that is the key moving forward. We have to think about bottom up, not top down. Washington is lost. It doesn't matter if we elect Ron DeSantis or Donald Trump or take your pick of Republican. It doesn't matter if the Republicans control Congress because we know that they don't overdo, I mean, look, they're impotent oftentimes in what they even, they don't follow through on anything they say they're going to do most of the time. So

uh... reforming washington d_c_ is lost but you can look at ronda santos and everything meet if you're in florida right now which you say you're in florida uh... the he's doing amazing things there in pushing back against the the uh... the cancel culture and and the culture war everything else it's amazing what ronda santos is doing

And so that is the key moving forward. I think if we want to take things back in America, if we want to make America great again, it has to come from the bottom up. That's the only way it's going to happen. And the states have all the authority and all the power to do it. It's just a matter of they're willing to do it. Well, and your point about Governor DeSantis, I mean, it's not only our own government, like can people within it trying to subvert the will of the American people. We also now have corporations that have come to the party who are

are sort of aligning themselves with D.C. and enforcing their will on Americans and enforcing the government's will on Americans. How do you sort of what's your take on that? Like we saw the recent fight

with Disney and things of that nature, big tech, you know, all these different things? Well, again, I think the states can regulate that kind of thing. You know, DeSantis is going after Disney. Well, okay, if you want all these state kickbacks, well, then you're going to have to toe the line. And corporations, the idea of a corporate person, I mean, that corporate personhood is the problem there. But the other thing that average Americans can do, of course, if you don't like what Coca-Cola or Disney or, you know, the NFL or take your pick of some corporation, you don't like what it's doing, well, just stop buying their products.

this is exactly what the the founding generation it was in a boycott your stock and the left of this pretty effectively at times uh... conservatives cannot to follow through over they get picked off a little while they just keep doing what they're doing uh... but that that economic muscle i think is something that needs to needs to be said in and um...

It needs to be done. We saw it with Disney here in this new movie, the Lightyear movie. Apparently it bombed at the box office because people said we're just not going to tolerate this and we're not going to bring our kids to this. It's not something we want to do. So there is a pushback that can happen with finances if you really want to. And then, of course, also the states getting involved and saying if you want to incorporate in our state, then you're not going to do X, Y, and Z. And I think that's also a key factor.

to reigning in some of these corporations as well. - You know, obviously there's a conversation happening in the country right now about the Second Amendment. What's the role of the Second Amendment in our lives? A lot of dispute about what the meaning of the Second Amendment was, what the purpose was. From a historical perspective, what was the purpose of the Second Amendment and does that still hold true today? - Well, of course, the purpose of the Second Amendment was to ensure that the United States had a militia, right? I mean, and so,

When you think about the Constitution, it says very clearly in the Constitution, without the Second Amendment, that the central government can arm the militia. Well, of course, the theory was that they could arm the militia, then they could disarm the militia. And the militia was every able-bodied citizen between 18 and 45.

And so when there was a discussion of a Bill of Rights, it was, "Okay, well look, we need to ensure that they can't disarm us and make us impotent, and so that the state can come in or the central authority can come in and simply run roughshod over us." So the states controlled the militia, and of course the states controlled essentially the arming of citizens. And so now what's interesting about that, when they first Congress met, they actually passed a militia law.

that, uh, established the fact that every male had to be armed. They had to have a certain, I had to have a firearm. They had a certain amount of powder, a certain amount of ammunition, so they could arm the militia, but they could not disarm them. And so, uh,

uh... the second amendment is vital to our understanding of of uh... you know what uh... wouldn't on civilian population is therefore which is to prevent centralized here any and uh... i think there's there's no other way around it uh... certainly states can do more than the central government can but i've always maintained any gun control of the political legislation from the central authority is illegal the states is a lot more wiggle room there depending on the state constitutions but

certainly this is something that the leftist politicized again looking at things from present status instead of thinking about it

the way that it's just a natural right to self-defense. Well, and too, I mean, the Battle of Lexington and Concord didn't, I mean, they were coming for guns. Exactly right. I mean, they were trying to disarm the militia. And that was what was happening in 1775. So they were, they had a central, you know, armory there. But that was the idea. I mean, you have those in the United States now. You have National Guard armory. So imagine the U.S. government coming in and saying, we're going to take this away from you.

Of course, the National Guard is a whole other monster and what that means is changing the nature of the militia there. But this is what was happening in 1775. So the idea was we're going to disarm you and we're going to take away your firearms. You cannot resist any of our unconstitutional laws. And I think at the end of the day, that's something we have to recognize and realize was one of the main parts of this American war for independence. And I think what's really important about this conversation with you is that

I think, look, I was a little bit naive before COVID to be. I mean, I always saw that the government was a bad actor. You know, we've seen numerous examples where the government's pretty much always lied to us our entire lives. But I think for whatever reason, I still was naive to the fact that tyranny could get reborn here in America. Right. Like we are somewhat immune to tyranny, despite, you know, Reagan and beautiful quotes that he's made about freedom being one generation away from extinction. And COVID just really opened my eyes, right?

And I think it opened a lot of people's eyes to the fact that, like, tyranny is here, the threat is real, and, you know, we have to fight for liberty in America. Absolutely. And I think if you look at when this process really began, it was in the middle of the 20th century, and...

basically the Truman administration, we created this deep state that we have. And at the end of World War II, we didn't demobilize. We just kept all the programs in place from the New Deal and also everything that was used to fight the war. And we've just kept that in place. And all of that deep state apparatus and creation of the politicized CIA and a militarized CIA and the FBI and everything that happens there,

All of that is a byproduct of extreme centralization during World War II. And it's always been there. It's just that people...

haven't really recognized what they've lived their lives and they just think, ah, the FBI just hurts everybody else or the CIA hurts everybody else or the central government hurts everybody else but not me. But now with COVID, they saw, well, I mean, if they can do these things to these people, they can do it to us too. And so I think that's really where this deep state apparatus was in place and it was there just to use and we saw it during 2020 and 2021.

I mean, I could honestly talk to you for hours. This is one of the more fascinating conversations I've had. But, you know, in the interest of time, is there anything else you'd like to leave us with before we go? Well, again, I think it's important to understand that the founding generation was committed to independence, committed to decentralization. They were committed to local government and they were committed to running their own lives. And if we can do any if we can live in any way like the founding generation, it would be that think locally, act locally idea.

Make sure you're going to your city council meetings. Make sure you're paying attention to your state legislatures. Make sure you're paying attention to your governors. That's more important than anything else. Vote in those local elections. Get people in those local elections. And we've seen Texas GOP, their platform, it's now national news because they're thinking about...

decentralization. They're thinking about what can the local do to ensure that we have the liberties and freedoms we want in the state of Texas. So this is important. You just don't focus on Donald Trump or Joe Biden or whoever's in Congress. Think about these people at the state and local level and get people in office there. Do it yourself that are committed and want to pursue these ideas of independence and decentralization. That, at the end of the day, is what we can take away from the founding generation. Where can people find your work?

You can go to BrianMcClanehan.com. It's B-R-I-O-N McClanehan.com. And you can find everything that I do there, my podcast, my academy, all the stuff that I do. So I appreciate any of your listeners going out there and checking me out. Thank you, sir. I appreciate your time. This has been fascinating and I think a really important conversation. So I really appreciate it. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. So that was awesome.

I hope you guys at home listen to that about the importance of independence, the importance of liberty, what our founding generation believed and why we should still care about those principles today as we celebrate Independence Day, as we go out and spend time with friends and family. Liberty is the most important. And if we lose it, we lose our country.

So I really appreciated his time. I thought he was an amazing guest. Definitely will have him back on the show for sure. You guys should go check out his work. And thank you all for listening at home. I really appreciate you tuning in every Monday and Thursday to the show. Also want to thank my teammate, my producer, John Cascio, for working so hard to bring this show to you and for us. So thanks so much for listening, guys. Happy Fourth of July. Happy Independence Day.

Welcome to The W, where elite athletes are redefining the game of basketball. From buzzer-beating shots, jaw-dropping defense, and logo threes, the WNBA delivers nonstop action and world-class talent every game. These athletes don't just play the game, they elevate it.

The biggest stars, the brightest age. AT&T WNBA All-Star 2025 comes to Indianapolis July 18th through 19th. Tune into the game July 19th at 8.30 p.m. Eastern Time on ABC. A treasure trove of bananas has been stolen, and it's up to Donkey Kong and his buddy Pauline to get them back.

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