Are We At Risk Of Another Pandemic?
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It's Thursday, March 13th. I'm Jane Koston, and this is What A Day, the show that is celebrating the return of March Madness by getting very stressed out about sports while definitely not watching sports at work, a thing you should also definitely not do. Nope, no sports at work. On today's show, Senate Democrats have their own solution to keep the government open, and President Donald Trump complains about former president's policies to the prime minister of Ireland.

Let's start with bird flu, which has sickened dozens of people in the U.S. as it continues to spread among animals. And measles, as new cases keep showing up.

Fun. The Department of Agriculture says eggs are about double the price from January of 2024. An ongoing bird flu outbreak is blamed as the main culprit. This morning, new numbers show the measles virus spreading like wildfire. Texas, the center of the worst outbreak, now up to 223 cases, nearly double that from last month. In nearby New Mexico, 33 cases, more than triple the number from last week.

Earlier this week, a new study found that bird flu is way more prevalent in cows than we thought, increasing the likelihood that the virus could spread to people, and then from humans to humans. And measles continues to spread across a swath of the country, with new cases in Maryland and New Jersey. If only we had a super-on-the-ball, very-with-it Secretary of Health and Human Services to reassure the public about bird flu while encouraging vaccination against measles, the best way to stop the spread of the disease.

Unfortunately, we have Robert F. Kennedy Jr. here in conversation with Fox News' Sean Hannity at a steak and shake earlier this week. When you and I were kids, everybody got measles. And measles gave you lifetime protection against measles infection. The vaccine doesn't do that. The vaccine is effective for some people for life, but many people it wanes.

Yeah, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, that's not true. Most people who have been vaccinated against measles are good to go for life. Also, measles can kill, and already has, with the first deaths in more than a decade taking place over the last two weeks. Don't get measles, because you don't have to.

So to learn more about measles and bird flu and to talk about the Trump administration's ongoing efforts to break the global health system, we spoke with Professor Anne Ramoyne. She's an epidemiology professor at UCLA and director of the Center for Global and Immigrant Health. Professor Ramoyne, welcome to What A Day. Nice to be here. Thanks for having me. Let's start with bird flu. A new report shows that the disease is more widespread in cows than previously thought.

That doesn't sound good. What risk does that pose for humans? Well, you know, it's an important study because it really demonstrates that this is, as you said, much more widespread than we originally had anticipated. But the thing is, is the risk is if there are more infections in cattle, then people who interact with those cattle are going to be more likely to

to come in contact with the virus, potentially get sick. And that is where we see a big problem for avian influenza in general. Most of the cases of avian influenza to date have been in people who are in direct contact with animals, whether it's cows, whether it's birds, like the backyard flocks. But if somebody actually has avian

seasonal influenza, at the same time, that presents a really important opportunity for somebody to be infected with both avian influenza and a seasonal influenza. And then you have this kind of recombination where the virus is able to swap genes and you may end up with something that's more contagious, more easily spread. And that's what puts us at risk for a pandemic, which is what we really want to avoid.

That is terrifying. And we just passed the five-year anniversary of COVID-19 being declared a pandemic. We have not seen human-to-human transmission of bird flu, but what work is being done to prevent the disease from becoming an epidemic in the U.S., or worse, the next pandemic?

Well, there are a lot of things that need to be done, right? The key is situational awareness. So if you know what's happening on the ground, then you can get in front of it. And if you can get in front of it, that's your best chance of being able to avoid a future pandemic. Now, some of the other things that are being...

considered now are vaccinating some of the vaccinating chickens, which is a smart idea to be able to get in front of it. Because if you limit the virus in the livestock that are able to spread it easily to people, then you're going to have less of an opportunity to spread to humans. So I think anything that we can do around the margins is important. And this falls under the category of what I always say, which is it is much easier to stay out of trouble than it is to get out of trouble. Never more true than when you're talking about pathogens.

Right. And regrettably, that does not seem to be the approach that the U.S. is taking right now because we're also seeing a measles outbreak in Texas and New Mexico that's spreading. What needs to happen to get us out of trouble with this outbreak? Well...

Falling under the category to getting out of trouble versus staying out of trouble. Listen, actually, there's still a lot of staying out of trouble for many, many people. So measles is the most contagious virus that we know of. And that's also because it is a virus that is spread through the air. It's airborne and the virus particles can hang out for a very long time in a room after somebody who is infected has left.

And complicating this is that people, before they develop this characteristic rash, before they know they actually have measles, they're contagious for several days before that time. And, you know, we saw this kind of thing with COVID. So the concept is similar. But now we're talking about a virus that is contagious.

more contagious than COVID. So what can you do to avoid it? Well, you can get vaccinated. That is our number one opportunity for stopping spread of measles is to have a highly vaccinated population. And so when you talk about...

highly vaccinated populations, well, what does that mean? Well, for measles, you need 95% of the population vaccinated to really stop it in its tracks, to stop it from spreading further. So this vaccine is up to 97% effective in preventing infection. And that's really, really critical here. And so when you have pockets of the population that are

or under-vaccinated, that just gives it this wide runway to spread. And now, you know, unfortunately, we've seen the consequences. You know, the vast majority of people will survive measles infection, but people who are very young, people that are immunocompromised, you know, it can be deadly. And we've already seen that happen. Yeah, and the...

This is all the more worrying because since the pandemic, fewer children who are especially vulnerable have been getting their routine vaccinations. Parents are opting out. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has been, how to put this, less than emphatic when telling people to get vaccinated. How does that make this measles outbreak all the more dangerous? Well, it makes it very dangerous because, you know, you need to have people

people giving good information and giving information that is strongly worded. And to have any kind of doubt sewn in the system, it does make it complicated. So, you know, I think that the more people that really do recommend vaccination and explain why vaccination is so important, the better off we are.

As a person who cares about this issue, should I be getting a booster for measles? Who should be getting boosters and who should not be? Well, people who should get a booster if they have not had one already are people that were born between 1957 and 1968. At that point, individuals who were getting a measles vaccine, it just wasn't as effective. And then people who were born between 1968 and

In 1989, the recommendation was just to get one dose. And now we know that a recommendation is to get two doses for optimal protection. So those are the current recommendations. And what I would suggest to anybody who is wondering, where do I fall? Is it something I should do? They should talk to their doctor.

I want to broaden this conversation out a little bit because I want to talk about public health more broadly. Your background is in emerging infectious diseases like Ebola and MPOX. What are you hearing from the people you work with about how the federal government's cuts to USAID and the CDC and the attempts to cut federal grant funding to universities are impacting their work in this field? Because you're kind of in the thick of it from both ends.

Well, global health funding has always been meager at best, in particular for emerging infectious diseases. So, you know, it's putting tension on fabric that's already stretched very thin. In general, our national security is linked to global security, and that's very true when it comes to global health.

And with fewer programs in place, we have less situational awareness. And situational awareness is key. What we've learned from the pandemic is that rapid action matters. I think, you know, there have been certainly effects in places like DRC when it comes to MPOC's response. I understand, too, in places like Uganda, that Ebola response, where we have an active outbreak, is certainly affected.

And one of the things I think about is I think, you know, in a place like DRC, the Kinshasa School of Public Health, which trains local health professionals, you know, that school is the centerpiece of training for the country. And I know that they are heavily funded by USAID. And so if you can't train local people on the ground to be able to do this kind of work,

You know, we really are going to lose capacity and it means that there is going to be more opportunities for viruses and, you know, other things to happen on the ground that we're not aware of and we're not going to be able to get in front of it. For more than two decades, you've been working in the Democratic Republic of Congo and you founded a research and training center there. Has that been hit by funding cuts?

Well, you know, I mean, I think everything is affected in one way or the other. The work that we do with the Kinshasa School of Public Health and the National Laboratory at present is still ongoing. But, you know, we are all, you know, waiting to see how things go and, you know, what is going to be sustainable, what isn't.

You've mentioned this a little bit, but there are a number of outbreaks happening around the world right now. Bird flu and measles here. You mentioned an mpox outbreak in the DRC and an Ebola outbreak in Uganda. There's Marburg in Tanzania, lots of fever in East Africa. It's a lot. What's worrying you most right now?

I worry most about the overall system of disease surveillance and the ability for us locally, nationally, and globally to be able to react in a coordinated manner and in an effective and efficient manner, you know, should we see another pandemic. That's my biggest concern right

of all, is how this kind of global coordination and collaboration is going to continue when funding is stretched thinner than it already is for these kinds of things. Professor Ramon, thank you so much for joining me today. It's my pleasure. That was my conversation with Professor Anne Ramon, an epidemiology professor at UCLA and director of the Center for Global and Immigrant Health.

We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads.

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Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said Democrats will not vote for a House-approved spending bill to avert a government shutdown on Friday. Dems are leveraging their power in the chamber to block the bill, knowing that it likely needs the support of at least eight Democrats to pass. Schumer announced his party's position on the floor Wednesday. Funding the government should be a bipartisan effort, but Republicans chose a partisan path

drafting their continuing resolution without any input, any input from congressional Democrats. House Republicans passed the legislation Tuesday, sending it to the Senate for a vote. The bill, which boosts funding for defense while cutting billions in other spending, would fund the government through September. But it grants no concessions to Democrats who want to make sure Trump and billionaire Elon Musk don't keep gutting funding for programs that Congress approved.

Instead, Senate Democrats want Congress to pass a stopgap measure to keep the government open for 30 days, while both parties negotiate a long-term deal.

What?

President Trump was his usual self while hosting Irish Prime Minister Mahal Martin at the White House Wednesday. The annual meeting comes ahead of St. Patrick's Day. Lucky us. Trump welcomed Martin to the Oval Office with this backhanded compliment. I give, look, the Irish are smart. You're smart people. And you took our pharmaceutical companies and other companies, but, you know, through taxation and proper taxation.

More than 90 pharmaceutical companies operate in Ireland and not just American companies. According to a leading nonpartisan tax policy nonprofit, Ireland has a low corporate tax rate of 12.5%. U.S. companies like Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, and Bristol-Myers Squibb operate or have locations in Ireland. And Trump sure as hell isn't happy about it. When the pharmaceutical companies started to go to Ireland,

I would have said, that's okay if you want to go to Ireland. I think it's great. But if you want to sell anything into the United States, I'm going to put a 200% tariff on you. So you're never going to be able to sell anything into the United States. You know what they would have done? They would have stayed here. 200% tariffs?

According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, the U.S. imported more than $13 billion in goods from Ireland in January. The U.S. exported just about $1 billion in products to the country. So is that why he's so mad? I don't know if you saw a little thing like the cost of eggs. Little to you, but big to people out there. Down almost 30%.

In the last few days, we got it down. Okay, well, let's talk about those eggs you clearly haven't purchased since like 1987, President Trump. The government's latest Consumer Price Index data released Wednesday shows the cost of a dozen eggs increased more than 10% last month. The average price now sits at just shy of $6, topping January's record of close to $5. The high prices are primarily driven by the ongoing bird flu outbreak, which we talked about earlier in the show.

The USDA said last week that some reprieve could be on the way because egg shortages were starting to ease up, in part because people stopped buying them. In good news, if there is any, the same government data did show that overall inflation cooled a bit last month. But as Trump continues to implement, and then back off, then re-up his quote, beautiful tariffs, economists worry his plans could upend efforts to rein in inflation long term. Is that stopping the president? No.

On Wednesday, Trump increased tariffs on all steel and aluminum imports to 25%. The European Union and Canada quickly retaliated with their own tariffs on U.S. goods like bourbon and motorcycles.

After months of hinting at a run, former California Representative Katie Porter has officially entered the race for governor. Porter made the announcement Tuesday morning. What California needs now is a little bit of hope and a whole lot of grit. Fresh blood and new ideas and leaders with the backbone to fight for what's right. That's why I'm running for governor.

Pod Save America's John Lovett sat down with Congresswoman Porter to talk about why she is running in what is already a crowded field, her thoughts on how Democrats are handling Trump, and what she'll do if former Vice President Kamala Harris decides to enter the race later this year. I'm not waiting around, and I don't think voters are waiting around. They want to know how we're going to lead. They want to make plans for what we're going to do with regard to Trump. And so I think there's a hunger for people to lead in this moment, and I'm stepping up.

You can listen to Lovett's interview with Representative Katie Porter Friday on Pod Save America. And that's the news. One more thing. I'm not sure if you've noticed lately, but the economy is having a not very good time right now. There's been a major reaction to the on-again, off-again tariffs against some of our closest trading partners that have made the stock market and investors extremely anxious. And coupled with less than great hiring data, there are real concerns about the potential for a recession.

But in response to this, the very real worries of many people about the economy, their investments, their jobs, and their futures, the response from a section of the American right has been, suck it up, bitches!

Here's Alabama Senator Tommy Tuberville on Fox News Wednesday. No pain, no gain. That's what we used to tell our football players. There's going to be some pain with tariffs. I'd like to note here that Tommy Tuberville's last season as a college football coach ended with a 4-8 record, which sounds like pain enough for Cincinnati fans. But you've got to suffer just wasn't a good enough message for some on the right.

In fact, some of President Trump's biggest fans, like frequent Fox News commentator Bate Angers-Argan, think that actually you should be grateful for Donald Trump and Elon Musk doing their best to wreck both the federal government and the economy for reasons. Because we're building a new economy made out of love.

Here she is on Fox News Sunday. I cannot get over the chutzpah of these business leaders sitting there whining about their quarterly reports while President Trump teaches them how to build an economy based on love of country and love of your neighbor. We should be listening and watching and saying thank you rather than whining and moaning. Yeah, thank you.

And Lara Trump, the president's daughter-in-law, said on Fox News on Monday that Americans should do way more than say thank you. Like, way more. People ought to be kissing the feet of Elon Musk and Donald Trump for being the two people to actually do this. Ew.

This is bonkers. Yes, very gross, cultish, and baffling, but also bonkers. See, before about, oh, a month ago, President Donald Trump loved the stock market. He used to talk about it all the time. And even in October 2024, he was claiming that any improvement in the economy under President Joe Biden must actually be about Trump.

Some of the best people on Wall Street are saying the economy is only good because they think, I don't want to say this because other people have said it. That's not me saying it, but they think Trump is going to get elected. That's the only reason our economy is good. That's the only reason the stock market is up. But now, as the stock market is definitely not up, suddenly the stock market just doesn't matter anymore. Now, the new meme on the MAGA right is that plunging America into economic uncertainty is cool and good.

as are plunging markets. A Newsmax host tweeted Monday, quote, the Dow is plunging. This is happening because we have a president with the balls to undo a globalist economic agenda that's decimated American wages and quality of life. This is the pain that comes from real change.

No. No, it isn't. This is pain for absolutely no reason. This is pain caused by a president turning tariffs on and off and on and off, with his reasoning varying from something-something fentanyl to Canada should be a state, which would be reason enough for me to be slowly losing my mind.

But this? A caterwauling bunch of Trump family members and MAGA influencers trying to tell Americans that actually their shrinking retirement accounts are good because we're going to rebuild factories that the MAGA influencers would rather go to a Joe Biden we miss you rally than work in? That might be what finally does it. Before we go.

Global headlines are moving fast. Russia and Ukraine may agree to a 30-day ceasefire. Canada has a new prime minister stepping into a full-blown trade war with the U.S. And USAID is on its last breath. On this week's episode of Pod Save the World, Tommy and Ben break it all down. Plus, the Trump administration's direct talks with Hamas, the ADL's shocking stance on campus protests, and the latest violence in Syria.

To catch up on the latest foreign policy news, listen to Pod Save the World now, wherever you get your podcasts, or on YouTube. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, go watch the documentary No Other Land, even if the mayor of Miami Beach tells you not to, and tell your friends to listen.

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Waterday is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Raven Yamamoto and Emily Fore. Our producer is Michelle Alloy. We had production help today from Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters, and Julia Clare. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our executive producer is Adrienne Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gillyard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.