Will Senators Let A Vaccine Skeptic Run Public Health?
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It's Tuesday, December 17th. I'm Jane Koston. This is Water Day, the show that does not think May Musk, Elon's mom, has her finger on the pulse of what everyday Americans are worried about when it comes to having kids. But people, you know, you don't have to go to the movies. You don't have to go out for dinner. You can just spend time with your the most wonderful gifts you can ever have.

Look, I do not know why some people are deciding not to have kids. You'd have to ask them. But getting concerned trolled by the mother of the richest man on earth with, you don't need to go out for dinner, boys, is probably not going to help. On today's show, Trump is still a convicted felon. And Amazon workers threatened to strike right before the holidays. Let's get into it.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. started making the rounds on Capitol Hill Monday. He's scheduled to meet with around two dozen senators this week to lobby them on his nomination to be the next Secretary of Health and Human Services. It's hard to know what senators might find most distasteful about him. Frankly, there's a little something for everyone to hate.

Will Republicans balk at the fact that RFK Jr. is a former Democrat whose voice support for abortion access? Or the fact that he used to be a big name in the environmental movement and built his career as an environmental lawyer who believes big oil executives are criminals? What about the fact that he's hostile to industrialized agriculture? Farm state senators from red and blue states alike can't be too excited about that. Or, you know, maybe.

Maybe. It's the fact that RFK Jr. has been one of the most prominent and pernicious sources of vaccine misinformation in the last decade. Someone who's actively worked to undermine the agency he's been picked to lead, and who wants to end some childhood vaccination requirements. Here's RFK Jr. in an interview with the podcaster Lex Freeman from last year, when he was still running for president. Can you name any vaccines that you think are good?

I think some of the live virus vaccines are probably averting more problems than they're causing. There's no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective. Great. Just the guy you want in charge of public health. During a press conference Monday, President-elect Donald Trump downplayed the idea that if confirmed by the Senate, RFK Jr. would wipe out vaccine requirements. I think you're going to find...

Bobby is a very rational guy. I found him to be very rational. You're not going to lose the polio vaccine. That's not going to happen. I saw what happened with the polio. I have friends that were very much affected by that. I have friends from many years ago, and they have obviously, they're still in not such good shape because of it. And many people died. And the moment they took that vaccine, it ended.

See, even Trump seems to understand why we need vaccines. But then he said this. But we're going to look into finding why is the autism rate so much higher than it was 20, 25, 30 years ago? I mean, it's like it's 100 times higher. There's something wrong. And we're going to try finding that. Huh. Could it possibly be that more people are getting diagnosed earlier and getting access to services they need more readily? Because newsflash, childhood vaccines do not cause autism.

The idea that a vocal critic of vaccines will be in charge of American public health, not even five years out from the most deadly pandemic in our collective lifetimes, is terrifying. Especially because the pandemic was one of the biggest vaccine success stories of our lifetimes, too. And yet, RFK Jr. very well could get enough senators to confirm him. So, for more on the risks RFK Jr. poses to public health, I spoke with Dr. Abdul Al-Sayed. He's an epidemiologist and health officer for Wayne County, Michigan.

He's also the host of the podcast, America Dissected. Abdul, welcome back to What A Day. Thank you so much for having me. Always fun, except for I always get invited to talk about, you know, sad topics. So yeah, regrettably, we got to start with how did we get here? How is this even a conversation we're having about the polio vaccine? Yeah, this is what happens when all of a sudden we decide to do healthcare policy by vibes.

But there has been a nascent and growing anti-vax movement in this country for a long time. And unfortunately, they've found a foothold in the conversation during the COVID-19 pandemic, in which their, quote unquote, just asking questions vibes were picked up by

basically fitness influencer, Instagram and TikTok, and turned into a whole movement. And that fused with MAGA for a lot of reasons, partly because of then and future President Donald Trump's vaccine questioning, partly because

MAGA is fueled on resentments against standing instruments of power and currently existing government infrastructure. And those things together made a really powerful voice that ultimately catapulted RFK Jr. to a position of real power when it comes to public health decision-making. And when you look into him, you start to realize that it's

not just asking questions, but it's actively opposing vaccines that have saved a lot of lives. I interviewed my grandparents for an episode of America Dissected during the first season back in 2019, before COVID-19 was a thing we knew about. And I remember them talking about lining up to get their first iteration of the polio vaccine. And that was because they all knew people who

who had either lost their lives or lost the use of their limbs because of polio. They all understood that this was generally a good thing. And I think, unfortunately, vaccines have become, in some respect, a victim of their own success. Yeah, and Trump said the same thing. So how has anti-vaccine sentiment changed since the pandemic? Because before COVID, anti-vaxxers were like,

hippies in parts of California, very much centered in the kind of left-leaning fringes of the Democratic Party. And since COVID, now it's a host of people who simultaneously get really mad about seed oils and are big into lifting, which I also am, to be clear. But like, how has that sentiment shifted? Because it seems to be like a horseshoe of conspiracy.

Yeah. First, Jane Kostin, I see your gains. I think there are a couple of big changes that happened during COVID. The first was it was really hard on its face to deny the overall value of vaccines against measles, mumps, rubella, polio, because those were all diseases that infected people a couple of generations back and really hurt them if not killed them. And they don't anymore. So obviously these things worked.

But when you had this new disease that no one had heard of, and in a year you've got a new vaccine, it created a space where the just asking questions crowd had a lot of questions that they could ask that resonated with a lot of folks. The second piece is, as you talked about, there is this overall questioning of the evidence-based scientific establishment. And that's in line with the overall questioning of almost every establishment, some of which I deeply agree with. But

Science is a process by which we ask and answer questions about the world around us. And I worry that in a world where we are giving up on science as a way to arbitrate these questions about what is good for our bodies, that we're going to continue to make really bad decisions that affect a lot of people and mainly people who are really vulnerable.

either because they lose access to a set of things like vaccines that they need or because they're children whose parents are making bad decisions on their behalf. And so science is really good, even if you don't necessarily agree with the establishment behind it. And when you start to question it, there are some real challenges that come up. At least when it comes to childhood vaccines...

There's a, you know, the root of the claims that vaccines cause autism comes from a debunked study from the late 90s. The journal that published it retracted it. The doctor who published it has been barred from practicing medicine in the United Kingdom. So why does this myth keep enduring and reaching new public heights? Why do any conspiracies exist? I think

When you create a narrative where there is this embattled group of people who are fighting against the machine, there is something, I think, in our animal brains that wants to side with the underdog. The truth of the matter is these people manufactured quote-unquote data to fit a narrative, got it published, and

And ultimately, when attempts were made to replicate the study, it was never replicable because the findings were bullshit. They were manufactured. And the problem with it is that these folks are appealing to that reptilian instinct we have to side with the underdog. And it's done just a lot of damage. But then there's a whole audience, right? There are some folks who are just deliberately pushing false narratives. But then there's a whole audience of folks who say, well, I don't know who to believe.

And really, that's the danger here, because once you have a situation where you're being exposed and bombarded with all of this miss and disinformation, it creates a debate where really there's not actually one. Ultimately, the cost is that there are going to be people who choose not to vaccinate their children. Those kids are going to get sick from diseases that were fully preventable. And we all have a responsibility to protect ourselves.

our children and to protect children generally, but also to remember that these are infectious diseases. So when they start to propagate in communities, they increase the risk for everyone. Something that you see vaccine skeptics or anti-vaxxers or whatever you want to call people who don't believe in vaccines, something they bring up a lot is that the U.S. and Europe have different vaccine schedules for kids. Why is that?

Well, a lot of it really is about trying to create an argument, right, that they know folks won't follow up. So if you actually look at vaccine schedules, yes, there are some diseases where some countries in Europe have a looser schedule. But there are some diseases for which countries in Europe have a tighter schedule.

You look at vaccines for rotavirus or MMR. They are tightening up the schedule relative to what the United States recommends. Part of it is also whether or not you can get access based on patents to combined vaccines. And if you think about it, if you want to maximize the number of people who are vaccinated, you want to bundle as many vaccines into one vaccine as possible because that's just fewer shots in the arm. And so we combine vaccines in certain ways here to

given what we can bundle to minimize the number of shots in arms. The last thing I'll say about this, which is just really important to remember, is the argument that's often made by folks who will point to these different vaccine schedules is based on this really flawed assessment that somehow you can overload an immune system.

So I want you to think about how our immune systems evolved. They evolved to be able to take on all different kinds of antigens at the same time. Antigen, just a fancy word for things your body wants to defend itself against. So it's not like, you know, a kid who's crawling around on the floor and being exposed to all different kinds of bacteria can only really be exposed to one at a time. That's ridiculous, right? Your body should be able to handle all of those things at the same time, and it can't.

Something that I think a lot of people may not know is that vaccines are actually determined by states. Every state has its own requirements for schools and for childcare facilities, but

For example, Wisconsin has no hepatitis A vaccine requirement for either, which is anxiety inducing. And so there's already the kind of a patchwork barely holding up how vaccines work in America. And now we've got RFK Jr. doing everything he can to weaken support for vaccinations in America. How can we push back and protect vaccines and perhaps more importantly, protect herd immunity that vaccines help to create?

Yeah, Jane, I really appreciate that point because the worry here is, you know, the bodies that recommend vaccines at the federal level, they just recommend them. And it's up to state and local authorities to actually make requirements and enforce them. I think, number one, it's start getting involved with your local school district, with your local administration.

and your state government and make sure that they understand that you as a parent or you as a concerned citizen value vaccines and that you want to make sure that kids are vaccinated against preventable diseases and that our kids are as safe as they possibly can be. And then two, I think there needs to be a vocal opposition to efforts to try and push back vaccines

or roll back vaccine recommendations. The reality of it is that, you know, the more you can bring transparency and build up a conversation, the better our chances at protecting evidence-based vaccine policy. The last thing I'll say is this. Every single one of us, you know, we interact with people in our daily lives. And

And I think the place where we're most effective, if you're not somebody who does this for a living, is in having conversations with vaccine skeptical people in your own life. And the point that I often make is that most of the time when somebody is afraid of vaccinating their kids, that's not a decision born in animus. That's a decision born in fear. And our approach tends to be to yell at or to condescend people. And that doesn't tend to be effective. It's a lot better to actually ask what the source of their fear is and to reassure and engage.

I think those are the most effective things. And so that's something that all of us can show is a little bit more empathy and engagement with what may be making someone fearful and reassurance about the scientific process and its capacity to save lives. Abdul, as always, thank you so much for joining me. Jane, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. And I hope that folks will check out more of our conversations at America Dissected.

That was my conversation with Dr. Abdul Al-Sayed, health officer for Wayne County, Michigan, and host of the podcast America Dissected. We'll link to his show in our show notes. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads.

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Cozy up to the world of Crooked's critically acclaimed limited series this holiday season. Named one of Time Magazine, Vulture, and the New York Times' top podcasts of 2024, Empire City, the untold origin story of the NYPD, takes you through the hidden history of how America's largest police force was shaped by corruption, exploitation, and resistance.

Or check out Killing Justice to unravel the mysterious death of a judge in India that captivated a country increasingly polarized by politics. And don't miss Dissident at the Doorstep, the unbelievable true story of a Chinese civil rights activist turned MAGA Trump supporter. Binge these series and more at crooked.com slash limiteds or find them wherever you get your podcasts. And now the news. Headline. The first term, everybody was fighting me.

In this term, everybody wants to be my friend. I don't know. My personality changed or something. President-elect Donald Trump touched on a bunch of topics during his press conference Monday at Mar-a-Lago. He told reporters a lot of great executives are coming in. Trump said, quote, it's like a complete opposite from the first one. Trump did not express as much excitement when asked if senators who oppose his cabinet nominees should be primary. I'll give you a different answer, an answer that you'll be shocked to hear.

If they're unreasonable, if they're opposing somebody for political reasons or stupid reasons, I would say has nothing to do with me. I would say they probably would be primary. Yeah, we're shocked to hear that. Trump also said he'd take a look at the potential U.S. ban of TikTok. The app has a mid-January deadline to sever ties with its Chinese parent company or be banned under federal law. Trump acknowledged its role in the election, saying, quote, I have a warm spot in my heart for TikTok.

Of course, Trump also mentioned what he called, quote, the most beautiful word in the dictionary, tariffs. He doubled down on his affinity for them, claiming he didn't have any inflation during his first term and had, quote, massive tariffs on lots of things. Are you concerned that tariffs might hurt the stock market rise that you have seen in the economy more broadly? Make our country rich. Tariffs will make our country rich. Look, we all believe things. That doesn't make them true.

Not everyone wants to be Trump's friend. Justice Juan Marchand on Monday rejected Trump's bid to get his criminal conviction overturned. This is a New York case where Trump was found guilty of 34 counts of falsifying documents back in May. Trump's lawyers argued that the conviction should be thrown out after the Supreme Court ruled that presidents have broad immunity from prosecution for official acts. But Marchand said the ruling doesn't apply because Trump's falsifying of documents was not an official act. Trump is expected to appeal the decision.

Marchand still has yet to issue a decision on another one of Trump's motions to clear his criminal record. His lawyers filed a separate claim arguing that the conviction must be overturned because Trump is about to be president. A teen killed a teacher and a student in a school shooting in Madison, Wisconsin Monday. Police say the shooter was a female student at the Abundant Life Christian School. She died of an apparent self-inflicted wound.

Madison Police Chief Sean Barnes said six other people were hurt, including two students who were in critical condition. Every child, every person in that building is a victim and will be a victim forever. These types of trauma don't just go away. Barnes said the shooting is something police prepare for, but, quote, hope we never have to do. A CNN analysis of data from the Gun Violence Archive says there have been 83 school shootings in the U.S. so far this year.

So it's time to get ready to strike.

It's time because we need jobs that preserve our dignity. We need jobs that preserve our safety. We need a company that pays us a fair wage for the important work that we do. Amazon did not meet the December 15th deadline to negotiate with the union. And that's the news. One more thing.

American politics seem pretty chaotic right now. Because they are. I mean, Dr. Oz might be running Medicaid and Medicare by Valentine's Day. So, yeah. But then you take a gander across the pond, and it turns out things are pretty confusing in a lot of places. Like Germany, whose government just collapsed on Monday. Or France, for example. Well, there we have it. The result of this no-confidence motion, Michel Barnier has...

being brought down by a no-confidence vote in Parliament that has succeeded. That was the BBC announcing the fall of former Prime Minister Michel Barnier, whose term in the job lasted three months. Now there's a new Prime Minister, Francois Bayrou, and all he has to do is fix the country's budget and not get tossed out of office himself, because he's the fourth Prime Minister just this year. So...

What's going on? Why is the French government so unstable? What does this mean for Europe, especially with Trump coming into office here? And why am I so bad at pronouncing French names? To talk about some of those questions, not my terrible French pronunciation, I called up Rachel Donatio. She's a Paris-based journalist and contributing writer at The Atlantic. I spoke to her earlier today.

Rachel Donatio, welcome to What Today. Thanks for having me. So who is the new prime minister, Francois Bayrou? What should we know about him and what will his role be?

Francois Bayrou is a career politician. He is a longtime centrist guy. He helped elect President Emmanuel Macron when Macron first ran in 2017 by having his party support Macron's party. He's a longtime mayor of a town in southwest France called Pau. And so he's kind of a seasoned politician. He was education minister in the 90s. And so he knows what he's doing, but he has a really tough job ahead of him. Right.

because he's the country's fourth prime minister in the last year. So, Rachel, what the hell is going on? Why is the government so unstable? Basically, what is going on in France is what's going on in Western democracies everywhere, which is a lot of tension between the right, between the left and economic concerns. And it's just the French electoral version of what we're seeing in the U.S. with Trump and the left.

President Emmanuel Macron in the summer decided to dissolve parliament because his party didn't do very well in some European elections. He got the sense that, okay, his party didn't do as well as it could have. So let's call snap elections. And that will mean that there'll be new legislative elections, basically members of Congress, and that will provide some clarity. But the clarity

But the clarity this provided is, A, that Macron's centrist party wasn't very popular, B, that the far right was quite popular, and C, a leftist coalition managed to form to block the far right from placing first. This means that the country is ungovernable. No one has a majority to pass legislation.

Macron, during COVID and during the pandemic, spent a lot of money to keep the social peace, to keep schools open, to give restaurants and businesses infusions of cash so they wouldn't go out of business. The check just arrived and no one really wants to do the cutting of the budget that it will take in order to put France's accounts back in order. In September, this Prime Minister Michel Barnier, he was put in place saying,

But he was trying to pass a budget and no one would support the budget. Marine Le Pen on the far right and the far left said, we're not supporting this. He didn't really listen to us. So they brought the government down. And now this is prime minister number four. No one really wants to actually take responsibility for the budget cuts that have to happen now. And so there's a lot of political instability. What does this all mean for Emmanuel Macron? He says he's staying through the end of his term in twenty twenty seven.

He could very likely stay until 2027, but what his political opponents want, in particular what Marine Le Pen, his opponent on the far right, wants is to make things so ungovernable that he will have to resign as president to block the political impasse so there would be early presidential elections, which would be extremely rare, if not unprecedented, in France.

He may not last until 2027. And Rachel, just as an aside for the good people who are listening to this podcast, why does France have both a president and a prime minister?

The president is an executive role. He is the head of state and the prime minister is the head of government. So the president asks a prime minister to form a government. So you could have multiple governments under the same presidency. The state is a separate thing from each individual government. Well, looking more big picture, France and Germany are two of the biggest economies in Europe. And on Monday, the German government collapsed, too.

This is a very critical time for Europe with the war in Ukraine and the incoming Trump administration threatening possible tariffs and emboldening Europe's far right. So what does it mean for the world that Europe's biggest players are looking shaky and anxious right now? I think it means that there could be some bumps in the global economy. It also really does affect the geopolitical world order. And I think that what we're seeing in Europe now is

is a real realignment and a real shift where the centrist kind of government mainstream parties are weaker and weaker. There's going to be a lot more uncertainty and the European Union is, in some ways it's weaker if the two biggest countries...

France and Germany are undergoing political instability. And who knows what will happen with Ukraine and with Russia. I think European instability makes Putin very happy. He likes it when things are unstable elsewhere. Rachel, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me, Jane. That was my conversation with Rachel Donatio. She's a contributing writer at The Atlantic based in Paris.

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