Episode 9: Body of Evidence
37:21 Share

Voters know that bad weather, like storms, lightning, and wind, can turn a fun day on the water into a challenge.

But what if you had satellite-delivered weather data giving you the full picture of what's around you, even when you're offshore and out of cell range? With SiriusXM Marine, get up-to-date weather directly on your boat's display. Features include radar, lightning, marine warnings, wind and wave info, and much more. And for offshore anglers, imagine having a guide that tells you where it might be best to cast your line. Fish mapping does just that. It's 8

fishing-focused features, including fishing recommendations, weed line info, plankton info, and sea surface temperature information can help you find fish faster. Plus, you can add SiriusXM Entertainment and listen to ad-free music, plus sports, talk, comedy, news, and more while you're on the water. Visit SiriusXM.com slash marine to learn more.

This episode is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average, plus auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Quote now at Progressive.com to see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates.

National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary, discounts not available in all states and situations.

A more colorful life starts at an Ashley store. From earth tones to vibrant colors, Ashley stores have an array of eye-catching furniture for every room in fun and trending hues that will leave a lasting impression. So it's easier than ever to express your personal style and design a vibrant home that feels just like you. Your more colorful life starts at an Ashley store. Shop in-store or online at ashley.com.

Today marks 20 years since emergency responders found a murdered woman inside of a burning home in Kill Devil Hills. The victim was 33-year-old Denise Johnson. You wouldn't know it looking at this home that something terrible happened here 20 years ago, a horrible crime that is yet to be solved. I remember seeing heavy black smoke up in the air. I just remember a pool of blood and her laying in it. We knew obviously something was way wrong. This wasn't just a routine call. ♪♪

On July 13th, 1997, someone brutally murdered 33-year-old Denise Johnson inside her childhood home in North Carolina, then set it on fire. For 22 years, Johnson's killer has eluded police, leaving Among Us undetected. This is CounterClock, the investigation into the unsolved murder of Denise Johnson. I'm your host, Delia D'Ambra. ♪

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. If that's the case, then pictures of Denise Johnson's life are thousands of words formed into unanswered questions. I've only seen a few photos of Denise. Most are ones police have released over the years. They all show Denise in her 30s, the age she was when she was killed. A few months into my investigation, seeing only a handful of pictures, I got a message on Twitter from one of Denise's family members.

The message came from one of Denise's nephews, a man named Mike Burgess. He's the son of Denise's oldest sister. He told me that after a hurricane had flooded part of his mom's garage in late 2018, he discovered a box of Denise's belongings. Inside, there were dozens of photos of the six Johnson sisters. Many were pictures of just Denise. While I was on the Outer Banks working the case, Mike agreed to meet me and share what he'd found.

Hey, are you Mike? I am. Hey, nice to meet you. I'm Delia. Mike listens to this podcast to learn more about his aunt. He says his family never talked about it and still doesn't talk about the murder. So I was really young when it happened, so they hid me from a lot of it. I feel like it's been, at least for my family, kind of like my immediate family. I know it's important to Donnie, but I think it's been out of sight, out of mind, on purpose.

When Mike learned I was coming to Kill Devil Hills, he wanted me to take a look at the photos he'd found.

It was like this whole box of crap. It was completely destroyed, but I saw these pictures were in it. So I guess her, which is, I just stole them and saved them and I don't gonna lie, but then I got them. - Wow. These are like old pictures too. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, that's like, I don't know who everyone is in the pictures, but I know that's like the sister's mom. And I believe that's their dad. But like, these are Denise's. So I think that's her. This is Denise.

And I believe that's Denise as well. I think that's Debbie, my mom. Mike's mom is one of the eldest Johnson sisters, older than Donnie and Teresa. He thumbed through several of the pictures right on top of the stack and could pick out his aunts with one glance. I know that's Teresa. There's no one sticking out. That's definitely my mom because that's hanging in the house. And that's Donnie and I think Denise.

The photos included family weddings, Denise's a bridesmaid in Donnie's wedding, her spending time with her nieces and nephews. Several pictures had Denise with non-family members too, which I thought was kind of interesting. One photo we noticed stood out from the rest was a picture of Denise smiling, sitting up against a man. They were lounging somewhere overlooking a body of water, maybe an outdoor seating at a restaurant. I couldn't tell. The water behind them was crystal clear. I mean, aqua blue.

Sailboats were idling around in a bay of some sort and the sun was shining really bright. I grew up on the Outer Banks and so did Mike. We both knew the photo wasn't taken at a beach near us in North Carolina. This is from Florida. Doesn't it, right? Yeah. I was willing to bet the photo with the mystery man was taken when Denise lived in Florida. But the question was who took it and when?

We saw another photo of Denise, but in this one she was with another man. It was Christmas time and they were sitting in front of a Christmas tree and the date stamp said it was taken in 1994, just three years before her murder. Mike and I made it to the end of the stack of photos and then he handed them to me to keep. He said he felt they might be helpful in my investigation. He believes there may be something in them that will help me solve the case. I think it would be awesome if it was solved and figured out, obviously.

But, you know, for some people, like, hearing about this podcast really, I think, made a lot of people face the reality of it a little bit more after avoiding it for so long. So I think the podcast has, I don't know, it's brought up the conversation again. So we'll see what comes of that. I mean, it is kind of crazy that it's kind of a significant part of the Outer Banks, and then it's one of those things that you'll be out with random people and it comes up a conversation again.

Like, people just still randomly talk about it. You're just sitting there silently in the corner like, "That was my aunt." Despite his family's best effort to shield Mike from the details of his aunt's murder, he wants to know more. Right now, I can't give him answers or closure, but holding the big stack of pictures reminded me that there's another batch of photos out there, ones that could reveal more clues, ones that could help solve the case.

All of these photos of Denise living her life with family members and friends all around the time before she was murdered are helpful to understand who she surrounded herself with and why. But it's the photos of the crime scene that will ultimately unravel and tell us how she died and who did it.

Folders for this cold case have been in storage for years. They're full of photographs. Former Kill Devil Hills police detective Bill Walker and current captain John Taller both tell me that. Taller released some of the crime scene photos in the police department's 2012 informational video about Denise's cold case.

By the time Bill Walker was brought in to work the homicide in November of 1997, those photographs were critical to the investigation because at that point, the house had been cleaned and released to the family, so nothing was left to look at except the photos. Walker says he and Jim Mulford used them to develop leads in their investigation. Donnie Johnson says Walker and Mulford let her see the crime scene photos a few months into the investigation, and she noticed some odd things in them.

It's weird. Yeah.

The barbell weight was definitely a piece of evidence that stuck out to Donnie, and really it sort of sticks out to me too. It was among other things that didn't make sense to the rest of the Johnson family. If you want to see some of these crime scene photos for yourself, go to our website, counterclockpodcast.com. One thing we do know with some certainty is that investigators collected roughly 53 pieces of evidence from Denise's house after all was said and done.

What those items are, where they ended up, why the barbell wasn't one of them is still unknown. I had some serious questions as to why police and forensics techs left certain items behind. The barbell, Denise's telephone and answering machine. And as Donnie told us before, there was a large butcher knife left on the kitchen sink. All of those things were there when family members went back into the house after the crime.

My biggest questions were, was there more potential evidence left behind? Forensics, investigators may have overlooked too. I needed to get inside that house. So while I was still working in the Outer Banks, I went by 2014 Norfolk Street one more time. Up until this point, the people that were living there hadn't answered the door when I knocked. In between visits, I did some research on who owned it. The Johnson family told me Denise's house was sold shortly after the murder.

Now, 22 years is a lot of time. I figured it had likely gone through several real estate agencies and buyers because that's pretty common for most homes in Kill Devil Hills. Who lived in Denise's old house now was really anyone's guess. But property records show the Johnson family held the deed to the house until 1998. It was then sold to a family friend who did some remodeling work. Then it sold again to a young family in 2000.

No one else had owned or lived in it for the past 19 and a half years except that family. The father, Greg Snigalski, renovated a lot of it himself and raised his kids there. When I went by one last time, Greg actually answered the door. Oh, Greg? Yes. Hey, Delia. Hello. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Yeah. Let me get the dogs in. Okay.

Greg chatted with us about how the outside of the home looks pretty much the same as it did in 1997, even down to the number and shape of the windows on the front. He walked us around outside, too. Over there, that's older concrete compared to, I think, what's back here. That fence back there, the neighbors put up a couple years ago. And this fence on this side is all from back then. That's part of the original fence from when she was here, I'm pretty sure. Yeah.

There's only a few steps between the side of 2014 Norfolk Street and the neighbor's house at 2012 Norfolk Street. You can literally almost reach out your arm and touch them. That home is where the Smithson's, Denise's neighbors, Donna and Andrew, lived in 1997. Like these ones were all right next to it. And it's amazing somebody didn't hear something. But on the most part, it's pretty quiet. You see them, but you don't always hear, you know, things like that.

Your street at night, like in the dead of night, what's the lighting situation in front of this home? It's pretty dark here. There's a couple streetlights down the street, but not right here. It's pretty dark right in this area at night. If everybody's got their lights off, yeah, it can be pretty dark here. Greg walked us around back, we saw the backyard, and then we went back towards the front door. It was time to go inside. ♪

Do you want to set your child up for success? IXL Learning is an online learning program for kids covering math, language arts, science, and social studies. IXL is designed to help them really understand and master topics in a fun way. Powered by advanced algorithms, IXL gives the right help to each kid no matter the age or personality. IXL is used in 95 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S.,

There's one site for all the kids in your home, pre-K to 12th grade. Kids can even access IXL on the go through the app or on your phone or tablet. No more trying to figure out how to explain math equations or grammar rules yourself. IXL has built-in explanation videos.

And look, my son is only two and a half right now, but I can already tell by the time he is in school, he is going to appreciate having someone explain why something is the way it is. He doesn't like just to be told. So those explanation videos are going to be super helpful. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now. And CounterClock listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com slash clock.

Visit iXL.com slash clock to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.

This message is sponsored by Greenlight. A new school year is starting soon, and if you're a parent, you want to make this school year an opportunity for your kids to learn important life skills and continue building independence. For that, there's Greenlight. Greenlight is a debit card and money app for families where kids learn how to save, invest, and spend wisely, and parents can keep an eye on kids' new money habits.

There's even Greenlight's Infinity Plan, which includes the same access to financial literacy education that makes Greenlight a valuable resource for millions of parents and kids. Plus built-in safety to give you peace of mind. My son is only two and a half, but already he knows what a card is and what it does. He actually took it up to a vending machine the other day, swiped it, and well, let's just say he's going to be a spender when he's older.

And so Greenlight is the perfect thing for him. There's even a chores feature that lets you reward your kids for honoring their responsibilities around the house. So what are you waiting for? Sign up for Greenlight today and get your first month free when you go to greenlight.com slash counterclock. That's greenlight.com slash counterclock to try Greenlight for free. greenlight.com slash counterclock.

Greg Snigalski, the owner of 2014 Norfolk Street since 2000, welcomed me, our executive producer Ashley Flowers, and a videographer inside the old cottage to take a look around. As we come in the front door, this is still pretty, the walls and stuff look very similar to the way. They're all cement walls behind there, and I think they were cement then, and then when they remodeled, they put drywall over top of all of them.

As we went inside, I quickly realized just how small this cottage is. Everything is tight. There is no wasted space. Greg says despite all of the renovations he's done, the orientation of the rooms and the space inside the house is identical to how it looked when Denise lived there. I mean, living room, two bedrooms, one bath back then, I think. And then the kitchen, there might have been a porch out back because I think that was the back door.

In the back of the kitchen, so it was just a small little beach cottage, and then one room added on to it since then. I mean, the fireplace, this is how it was, I guess, back then. Yeah. Because the house was originally built in 55, so it was a little flat-top cottage, and I'm sure then that was the only heat.

When we walked into the front door, we were immediately standing in a small living room. Karen Bittinger, Denise's roommate in 1997's bedroom, is the first door on the right. Then the next door on the right is where Denise slept.

And then this was the roommate's bedroom who wasn't here on the night of the crime. This would have been Denise's bedroom. And then there was like in the crime scene photos, there's like a little half moon table that's like against this wall. And Denise was, this is a bathroom, right? So Denise was kind of like head in the bathroom legs. That was probably the only bathroom here then. Yeah. So she was like head in the bathroom, legs in the hallway area. So Denise,

I asked Greg more about the renovations he's done over the years. Most importantly, I wanted to know what work he'd done in the area of the house where Denise died, the small hallway from her room to the bathroom, and the woodwork around the doorframe of the bathroom. His answer surprised me. I replaced the floor, and the floor under here was...

You can see pieces of concrete with parts of this really nasty old linoleum that used to be in here. I assume it was then. I don't know. Yeah. Donnie said everything in this area was linoleum. Yeah. And that's when... There's still some under there because I couldn't scrape it all up. Wait, sorry. Could you say that again? There's still some of the linoleum underneath this floor.

Because three years ago, Hurricane Matthew, we got flooded about five inches of water. So I've redone a lot of stuff in here. Like this floor is new. Baseboards, things like that. There's possible linoleum still under this section of the floor. Yeah, I've tried to scrape up as much as I could get off. But there's probably a little bit still under there.

So when you put the floors in here, like what is directly underneath of this? Just concrete floor? Yeah, concrete. Okay. And there might be some patches of the linoleum. It's kind of like a yellowish. I don't know if you saw pictures of it. That's what it looked like. What about the bathroom floor itself? Do you know if that's something you laid or someone else laid? Well, I did that. I've changed the tile when I guess the people that remodeled it put a different stick down tile. And then I've changed it since it was getting old and I didn't like it. It was like that.

Parts of the original floor where Denise's killer had struck her down and she lay bleeding out were right underneath where we were standing. It seemed impossible to believe after 22 years.

But there we were, and Greg had seen it himself. He knew the original floor was still there. He also said the original walls of the house that were covered with soot and smoke from the fires were still standing too. Because I know there's cement walls behind this drywall because I had to do some work on drywall. That's how I realized there was actually cement walls back there. And some of them looked like they were painted, so it might have been just cement walls back then.

I asked Greg why he and his ex-wife decided to even buy the house in 2000 if he knew it needed so much work, and not to mention that someone had been murdered there. And we picked this house because it wasn't a typical beach box. That's why, of course, I've been here a long time since then. In some ways, I wish I had a beach box with it underneath, but that's why we picked it. And after going up and down stairs for years, it was nice having a house that you didn't have to deal with stairs. Yeah.

Because the house fit his family's needs at the time, Greg says he never thought much about or was even bothered by the fact that a brutal murder happened there. He'd never been inside the house prior to buying it in 2000, but he did know Denise Johnson. So we did know Denise a little bit, worked with her shortly at the Sandaling, and we knew what happened here when we bought it. It didn't bother us. Of course, we knew it was all remodeled and the room added on, the bathroom added on, so...

Yeah, well, every once in a while I think about what happened here. Yeah. I always wondered if something was going to happen because of it. You know, like, oh, is it haunted or something like that? But never noticed anything. I've had other people tell me they get a weird feeling when they come here, but I've never noticed anything in almost 20 years. You've never had any investigators come by and ever poke around? No, not for that. No, um...

Other things, family. I mean, her family came by several times. And I did know, I met her other sister, Teresa. Kind of knew her off and on for a couple of years. She was, kind of met one of my friends and used to hang out with her at Moe's or something like that. Yeah. They would stop by every once in a while. I know never had anybody actually come by and ask to look for anything inside the house or, you know, investigate or anything like that. Yeah.

If somebody needed to look for something here, I would let them. I don't know. It depends on how much damage they did. Like looking at the walls, like you wonder what's really on the wall. But I'm sure the people that put the walls up and remodeled would have noticed or seen something back then because that was shortly right after it happened because this had to be remodeled in 99. Yeah.

If police or anyone in another agency ever wanted to come in and say we'd like to sample the floor underneath, like you wouldn't be opposed to that? No, I wouldn't be opposed to it. If they could solve what happened, yeah, it would be nice to know what happened. I'm sure everybody would like that.

It was good to know that Greg was open to anything and willing to help. Letting complete strangers like us come into his home showed me he wants closure for the Johnson family, and he's willing to do what he can to make that happen. And I'll be honest, I was surprised when he said no law enforcement has ever been by and that no one has ever reexamined the original surfaces of the house. I wanted to talk with Donnie Johnson about our visit with Greg.

We drove to her home about an hour from Kill Devil Hills to catch up. She greeted us with coffee, pastries, and a kitchen table full of photos and newspaper clippings that she's collected over the decades. I kept it because I'm, you know, always hopeful one day, you know, these are all the pictures I have of her. We were, you know, like this, always having family get-togethers and

Donnie hasn't given up on her sister's unsolved murder. She believes more can be done to help solve it, including police reexamining the Norfolk Street house. And I think they could revisit the crime scene. I think it's actually been a little preserved because of the remodel. I think it's been preserved. I think they could still get evidence there. I think there'd be blood evidence still on the floor, concrete floor.

I think there would be probably on that little hallway, I think, still has evidence. They took a piece of wood trim from the doorway that had blood on it because that's all concrete. And, you know, porous as that is, that's going to soak blood in and it'll preserve. And I really think there's evidence right there.

Donnie's persistence and just the way she talks about Denise in this case inspires me. I wanted to go through the information we already knew about the crime scene with a professional and figure out what was missing and what could be investigated more.

Listening to Donnie's description of the crime scene back in 1997 and looking at the photos of the melted furniture and soot-covered walls made it clear I needed to start with the fires. The arson presented the biggest challenge to investigators over the years, so I tracked down a forensic investigator from the North Carolina City-County Bureau of Investigation, also known as the CCBI.

The CCBI is an agency that's been around since the 1930s and handles forensic investigations across many counties in North Carolina. CCBI was not involved with Denise's case in 1997, but veteran homicide detective Chris Morgan recommended that I speak with a man there named Bill Hensley.

Hensley was a police officer for decades, and then he joined the CCBI to focus his career solely on crime scene examinations. We worked crime scenes for Secret Service, FBI, ATF, SBI, and then about 18 or 19 municipalities.

I asked Hensley how an experienced crime scene tech would have processed Denise's house in 1997, considering it was in disarray because of the fires. Depends on how good the forensics were then, what they did then. I used to tell my agents this. It may not mean a damn thing to you, but if you don't know what it is and you can't identify it, you take it with you.

Just like everyone else that I've talked to, Hensley agreed that the arson definitely made it harder to figure out what items were important and collect valuable forensic evidence.

But Hensley says something the killer didn't know is that if they never set the fires, the State Bureau of Investigation or the SBI may never have gotten involved.

I've learned three languages in my life, English, Spanish, and French. And I can tell you the most difficult part for me at times was when I was doing the classroom work. And even though I was having conversations with people in those languages, it wasn't the same as being immersed in that language. But with Rosetta Stone, I get the best of both worlds.

Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program, and it's available on desktop or can be used on an app on your phone or tablet. The big thing for me when it comes to learning a language or sprucing up on one I already know is to have that immersive experience, like I said, and really naturally try and pick up the language, first with words, then phrases, and then sentences. And something that's been really helpful with that is Rosetta Stone's True Accent feature. You get feedback on how well you're pronouncing words.

It's like having a personal trainer for your accent. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. For a very limited time, CounterClock listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash counterclock.

That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash counterclock today. All right, so for a long time, I was completely unaware of like what was good wine and what was bad wine. In fact, I used to drink a lot of wine.

I usually just didn't even buy it because I was worried I was gonna take too much of a risk. And when I did, I usually let myself down. But now that's completely changed thanks to First Leaf. It's a wine club that's not your average wine club. It's better.

With each shipment, you get a personalized selection of wines from all over the world, handpicked just for you. First Leaf has this great questionnaire on their website that helps me a lot because it asks me questions like what kinds of foods do I like? Sweet or salty or nutty or oaky?

And all of those things created results that had wines paired perfectly for me. You can tailor your membership to your needs, and you can choose between six or 12 bottles, decide how many reds or whites you want, and select a shipping window that works for your schedule. So get wines to sip and share all summer long with First Leaf. Go to tryfirstleaf.com slash counterclock to sign up, and you'll get your first six hand-picked bottles for just $44.95.

That's T-R-Y-F-I-R-S-T-L-E-A-F dot com slash counterclock. Tryfirstleaf.com slash counterclock.

Bill Hensley says at the time of Denise's murder in 1997, the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation would not normally have assisted Kill Devil Hills police on a routine homicide. The SBI was required to be there because of the arson. You see, you've got to understand the SBI was created in 1937, the same time CCBI was. And the SBI was created for one thing in North Carolina, one reason and one reason only.

What you're saying is that the State Bureau of Investigation, back in 1997, it would make sense that they were requested to investigate secondarily a house fire. Right.

Technically, in 1997, Kill Devil Hills Police had to have the State Bureau of Investigation on the case. The fact that someone had committed arson was jurisdiction enough for SBI investigators like Donnie Varnell to show up.

But when it came to the homicide and evidence collection for that, Kill Devil Hills Police would have had to formally request the FBI's assistance, making the two investigations and investigating agency's efforts become one. In determining what evidence from the crime scene was relevant, Hensley says that's where things could have gotten complicated fast between the state agency and the local police department.

If the Kill Devil Hills has the case, they should have the evidence. Because everything the SBI did and took to the lab should have came back to Kill Devil Hills if they didn't, you know, depending on how they worked it. And if the SBI had the lead and everything, they should have kept what they've got. If they were just assisting, then Kill Devil Hills should be responsible for the evidence.

When the body was found, then things got complicated. So when Dennis Honeycutt processed the Denise Johnson homicide in Kill Devil Hills, he was processing the home in regards to investigating the arson. Or was he likely also doing forensics for the homicide? You can't separate the two when you have the body. Okay, you have the killing of a person and then the fire.

It was an interesting question. First responding firefighter Glenn Rainey believes Denise was murdered. Then the killer set fires inside the house to cover it up.

But what if the arson wasn't committed to cover up the murder at all? I took another look at the notes on Denise's toxicology paperwork.

The medical examiner noted that they'd found traces of carbon monoxide in her blood. But up until this point, I didn't know what the percentage of carbon monoxide in Denise's blood really meant or indicated. Bill Hensley explains more. What was the percentage of carbon monoxide? In her report, they said 25%. What? I tend to be poisoning if your neck's cut and you aren't breathing anything in. Right. Right.

Oh yeah, here's the toxicology report. So the toxicology report says source was obtained from the aorta, blood sample, carbon monoxide, 25% saturated. Somebody would have to explain that to me. So what is it that you're saying? What does that mean? She had a percentile of that much carbon monoxide in her lungs or in her blood.

Do you think that means that she breathed that in prior to her fatal wound or do you think that was breathed in in the last seconds of her life? Is it possible to have that kind of blood saturation of carbon monoxide?

I would have to talk to a toxicologist, but I don't think it's possible. That would raise questions with me. She had to be breathing the smoke at some time. Ask the ME just what's going on there. That would have stuck out like a, you know, that would have lit my fire. Why would that have stuck out to you? When you get the main arteries in the neck and you get the artery and everything like that, you're going to pump out a blood in less than three, four minutes. It's going to be a mass amount of blood. You are going to be gasping. You don't have a windpipe.

You don't have a trachea because your throat's cut. So how are you going to inhale anything? And you're sure that says 25% saturation? Absolutely. It says, it has a list here. It says carbon monoxide, 25%, percent sign, SAT. Cocaine, none detected. Ethanol, none detected. Morphine, none detected. It's saying that she was alive and breathing all this stuff before she woke up and her neck was cut.

I listened to Glenn Rainey's interview again, the part where he described Denise's fatal wound. It's hard to imagine that anyone could breathe after suffering brutality like that.

So Hensley's suggestion, and now my growing gut feeling that the fires weren't set to cover up Denise's murder, but rather were set before her murder, was making more and more sense.

I wanted to be absolutely sure that Denise's carbon monoxide levels were indicating that she'd been breathing in smoke for a substantial period of time before her fatal stabbing. Bill Hensley was a good expert source, but I needed confirmation from a pathologist or medical examiner to really be certain.

I sent a doctor named Suzanne Utley a copy of Denise's autopsy summary and toxicology report. Utley is a medical examiner in Sarasota County, Florida, and she's practiced forensic pathology for more than a decade. She agreed to look over Denise's case with me. The carbon monoxide of 25% saturation is elevated above what would be a normal level.

What would that say to you about when they had that exposure potentially? It would not have been fire because getting a level of 25% indicates that they were breathing at least some of the time while they were inhaling smoke.

Denise was a recreational smoker throughout her life. On the night she died, she bought cigarettes at the convenience store. I let Dr. Utley know that, but she determined that just because Denise smoked sometimes didn't account for why Denise's carbon monoxide levels were so high. I would think a non-smoker would have like 1%, 2%, 3% very low single digit numbers.

Somebody who smokes can get higher single-digit numbers, 5%, 8%, even up to 10%, but not 25%. I asked Utley if there was anything out of the norm with the screenings the medical examiner had requested for Denise's toxicology back in 1997. What's the typical protocol for screenings on a toxicology? Depending on the case, we would look for drugs of abuse, and in a fire death, we would also look for this carbon monoxide level.

and we would also ask for alcohol or blood volatiles. Why is it important where the sample is taken from? Best case scenario, we would try to obtain blood from a peripheral source like the iliac or femoral area. Heart blood or central blood would be a second choice, and then the third best choice would be from cavity blood, which would be blood that was just pooled in the chest cavity or the abdominal cavity.

If there's trauma and somebody has bled a lot, one or more of those may not be available. So in which case we would just obtain whatever blood we could. Carbon monoxide, is that a pretty standard toxicology screen for all MEs? Or is it more specific when you know there's the presence of a fire? You would not ask for that test if you didn't have a reason to suspect that it's going to be elevated, which would be a fire...

If this toxicology screen that we're looking at came across your desk today, what would be your educated summary of what that means for that victim?

a carbon monoxide level of 25 percent. I would think that the person was alive and breathing for at least a little while while the fire was burning. They inhaled the products of combustion at least enough to give them that level of 25 percent. They weren't dead prior to the fire or she wasn't dead prior to the fire then it would have been zero or very low single digit numbers.

But the number is not high enough to be a cause of death by itself either. She was alive enough to be breathing for a while, but then died from some other cause than inhalation.

So there they were, two conclusions. Denise was definitely alive for several minutes, breathing in smoke from the fires in her house before she was murdered. And the amount of smoke she inhaled likely wasn't enough to make her go unconscious or asphyxiate her. As Utley and I worked our way through Denise's autopsy summary, she assured me that the four-page document I had was not anything close to a full autopsy report.

She says a full autopsy report is much longer and full of important information. This looks like a kind of an overview of their investigation with main headings and some kind of intra-office paperwork, but it doesn't really tell you anything about what they saw at the autopsy except for the lethal injury. They've titled it Report of Investigation by Medical Examiner, and it looks like kind

Yeah, me too. But because Denise's case is still active, much of the important information isn't accessible via public record.

With as high of a level of carbon monoxide as Denise had in her blood, Utley says a full autopsy report would have even more evidence indicating that Denise was alive when fire was burning inside her home. Anytime there's a death from inhalation, like in a fire, we look for soot. So I would look in the nares of the nose or in the mouth for soot deposition. You also look for soot, which looks like black.

Dr. Atlee's conclusion suggested a scenario happened on July 13, 1997 that I had not thought of up until this point. Had someone come into Denise's unlocked front door?

started lighting spot fires, beginning at Denise's roommate Karen Bittinger's room, then moved towards the living room furniture, and eventually made their way to Denise's bedroom in the back of the house. But been startled by Denise waking up.

Is it possible that if you wake up and you begin to scream, right, is that similar to a gasping type? You know what I mean? Are you inhaling more? Well, you're breathing to scream. You have to take an air. And she can't breathe. How did she get the saturation of 25%? That would give me an indication that she was in bed. Somebody set the fires. She woke up and somebody took care of her.

Forensics expert Bill Hensley says when you line that theory up with the evidence, a piece of the answer comes into focus. You used the evidence to find the truth and then try to prove myself wrong. I couldn't prove myself wrong, then I must be right. The theory explains how Denise ended up in the hallway of her house, halfway into the bathroom. Was she trying to get away from someone? Denise, she was a fighter. And at what point had she been injured?

And just what exactly had injured her? That's next time on CounterClock.

Thank you guys so much for supporting the show so far this season. Do us a favor and subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or follow us on Spotify. Your five-star ratings and reviews help draw more listeners to the show, and it gets Denise's story out for more people to hear. Follow CounterClock on social media, and we're on Twitter at CounterClockPod, and on Instagram, look for the handle CounterClockPodcast.

Counter Clock is an AudioChuck original podcast. Ashley Flowers is the executive producer. And all reporting and hosting is done by me, Delia D'Ambra. Voters know that bad weather, like storms, lightning, and wind, can turn a fun day on the water into a challenge.

But what if you had satellite-delivered weather data giving you the full picture of what's around you, even when you're offshore and out of cell range? With SiriusXM Marine, get up-to-date weather directly on your boat's display. Features include radar, lightning, marine warnings, wind and wave info, and much more. And for offshore anglers, imagine having a guide that tells you where it might be best to cast your line. Fish mapping does just that. It's 8-5.

Fishing-focused features, including fishing recommendations, weed line info, plankton info, and sea surface temperature information can help you find fish faster. Plus, you can add SiriusXM Entertainment and listen to ad-free music, plus sports, talk, comedy, news, and more while you're on the water. Visit SiriusXM.com slash marine to learn more.

A more colorful life starts at an Ashley store. From earth tones to vibrant colors, Ashley stores have an array of eye-catching furniture for every room in fun and trending hues that will leave a lasting impression. So it's easier than ever to express your personal style and design a vibrant home that feels just like you. Your more colorful life starts at an Ashley store. Shop in-store or online at ashley.com.