Season 4: BONUS Q&A
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Hi, CounterClock listeners. Welcome to the bonus Q&A episode of Season 4. There is so much to cover in this episode. We have new evidence photos, a few new theories, some follow-up interviews, and a huge update that could change so much in this case. It's all going down in this episode. The team at Audiocheck went through hundreds of emails in the weeks since Season 4 released. And just like me, many of you still have so many questions about this case.

and to help us trudge through the aftermath is a voice many of you already know, executive producer Ashley Flowers. Hi, everybody. Welcome, Ashley. Ashley, I think a good way to kick off this episode is to go back for a minute and tell the listeners about the first conversation you and I had about this case, which was over a year ago when I think I first said, hey, Ashley, I have another counterclockwise season brewing. Do you remember the beginnings of that conversation? Oh, yeah.

i remember the conversation because you were either fresh off of season three or i'm not even sure if season three had even released yet honestly but i remember it because you were telling me before that you're like i am gonna take a break like i just mentally season three the peli case was just

so big, weighed so heavily on you that you're like, I just need, I need a mental break. I need like a reset. But that lasted like a day before, again, I got this call that like is stop everything. Something is happening to teenage boys in Arcadia, Florida. And I literally remember you're like, again, these cases just like come to you because you were like hanging out with friends and they were like, oh, have you heard this? So yeah, when you called me, you brought up how you had been digging into John Wells' story and

And Joseph Kinville III's murder in 1999. For those of you who don't know, Crime Junkie actually did a full-length episode on Joseph's unsolved murder on the Crime Junkie feed just a few weeks ago. I highly recommend you go listen. Truly, that case could have been a counterclockwise season all on its own, but we decided to tell it in the Crime Junkie episode format. I didn't want people to wait. You had talked to his mom. People needed to hear that story as well.

Yeah, for sure. And even though I quickly found out that John and Joseph's cases aren't connected, we still knew we had to get both of their stories out there because it was too wild to me that we had two cases of two teenage boys whose deaths were investigated by DeSoto County Sheriff's Office. And both of them still have like a ton of murky questions surrounding them. Questions that I think could be answered if people in Arcadia just came forward with information or an outside agency maybe took a second look. For sure. I mean, that

town, I swear, has some secrets. And I really think people there know a lot more than they're saying about both cases. Yeah. I mean, you and I, we go back, we talk about how we grew up in close-knit, small communities. I mean, I grew up on an island. So I think we know a thing or two about small towns and the secrets they hide. And Arcadia, really, as you listen to both of those stories, you understand that it's no exception to something like that.

While going through the listener-submitted emails that came in, I read messages from a lot of people who either live in now or grew up in Arcadia and then moved away. And they all lived there like in the early 2000s. And they say how the John Wells case was handled was not surprising. And the fact that to this day, DeSoto County Sheriff's Office investigators are still unwilling to comment for this podcast or really anyone about John's case is just not surprising to the people who are from there.

Yeah. And like, I mean, a community not wanting to talk, maybe I can see, but the sheriff's office not even getting back to you ever. I mean, before the reporting came out, during the time that the reporting came out, or even after, it blows my mind. Mostly because if they have closed the book on John's case, again, saying it's an accident, it is not a murder anymore. Why aren't they even willing to discuss it?

If they have solved it in their minds, what is this wall of silence? Yeah, and I've always thought that same thing, like throughout all the time I've been working on the case and really even now. And look, you know, in the end, DCSO, they don't have to talk to me. But the sheriff, Sheriff James Potter and Kim Lewis, who still works there, by the way, they absolutely have to address the public's growing interest in this case. I mean, the sheriff's position is an elected position, so they owe it to the public.

"What happened to John Wells is bigger than Sheriff Potter, it's bigger than Kim, and it's bigger than DCSO."

And thanks to this show and all the hard work that we've done, DCSO is having to answer to another extremely interested state agency, the Florida State Attorney's Office over DeSoto County. Which is basically, sorry, just to clarify, the state attorney is basically just another way to say the district attorney, right? Right, yeah. So in Florida, they call them state's attorneys or state attorney, and each state attorney has deputy prosecutors, which are pretty much synonymous with the more commonly heard term assistant district attorney or ADA. Okay.

Yeah. So Delia, when you sent me this text message after the series had come out, I about died. And this is where like, again, if you guys don't follow us on social at CounterClock, Delia took screenshots and like a little teaser of what was coming because it was a jaw dropping moment, I think.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the state attorney is someone who oversees DeSoto County. And his name is Ed Brodsky. He's really nice. I've talked to him a bunch. And he's been the elected state attorney over the three counties, Sarasota, Manatee, and DeSoto County since 2013. And he's been a prosecutor for like 30 years. So this like, this guy knows his stuff. Seasoned. Seasoned is the word. Yeah, yeah.

For sure. After the podcast came out, I made sure to contact him and his office. And literally the next day, he got back to me with like pretty amazing news.

I listened to your entire podcast, as did my supervising attorney in Arcadia and my chief assistant that oversees those two counties, Manatee and DeSoto counties. So we've all listened to it. You were very thorough in your review of all of the evidence. So we were very impressed with the work that you did in your podcast.

One week after that, Ed traveled from Sarasota to Arcadia to meet with Sheriff Potter in person.

Criminal investigations that result in either an arrest or a referral to us by the DeSoto County Sheriff's Office is reviewed by my office for prosecution. And so because this case, the John Wells case, fell within county, it certainly falls within our jurisdiction and our ability to investigate and to prosecute any criminal offenses stemming from that incident.

I met with Sheriff Potter this past week. I think we probably spent an hour with him talking about the case and going over the details of the case and certainly a lot of the questions and the issues that appeared to be raised either during your show, during your podcast, or that certainly were questions that I think came to us as we listened to the information that you relayed to your listeners.

So I think it's fair to say that we had a very good conversation with the sheriff. I think Sheriff Potter was very open-minded about the things that we talked to him about and some of the avenues that we thought could be pursued. Obviously, I don't feel comfortable and I don't think I can talk about which avenues we're talking about. Certainly, we wouldn't want to do anything that would jeopardize any further investigative efforts if that was going to happen. Ultimately, it's going to be his decision if he's willing to reopen and

and kind of take a second look at, you know, now this would be a third look, I think, into this case. At the conclusion of our meeting, the sheriff said that he would take our thoughts and our consideration, the things that we talked about into consideration and under consideration, and that he would be making a decision. So I guess we'll see what Sheriff Potter chooses to do.

Delia, this is incredible. Like, I mean, I kind of, I got your reaction, right? Like, you're like, I can't even work. This is so amazing. But this is truly because of the show. He listened to the show, listened to the work.

of a county that's like already in his jurisdiction a case you would hope he already knew but he didn't and the fact that he sometimes a little i feel like we're in a bubble a little bit right because like and i almost feel like sometimes i'm like is it us are we losing our minds because to me it seems so obvious and it's such a nice like justification to hear like no someone else in a position of power can hear all of these things too and they too can be like

WTF? Like something is not right here. Yeah. And so there's something that happened with Ed, which is actually really similar to what happened with Counter Clock Season 1 with Denise Johnson, which was when I talked to Andy Womble, who was the DA in that case, is it was getting them aware of the case, getting them up to speed because, you know, they weren't there when this happened. So one, you have to like get it on their radar. But then

once it's on their radar, then they can hear for themselves like what needs to be done. And they're the ones that hold the power. So yeah, so it's just incredible that he was able to listen. He's trying to be proactive and he's making all these moves with the right people, the sheriff's office being one of them. So this is where I want to emphasize to the listeners, like I did in the finale episode, for those of you who want to be active,

in this true crime community, in this counterclerk case that I've been talking about. If you care about what comes next for John Wells, and if you're a believer in justice, you need to contact the DeSoto County Sheriff's Office. You need to make it known that it's not going away and that we won't accept anything less than a reinvestigation into John's death.

You need to make it known that the state attorney's office needs to get involved. I mean, clearly he's willing because Ed Broski is going to do something if he can. He just needs these other agencies that are responsible for investigating the crime to do their jobs.

And that was actually a question that I had. So, again, you have the DA, the state's attorney, whatever, saying like, OK, from what I know about this case, like we should be prosecuting this. But he literally can't unless the sheriff's office complies. Is that what I'm understanding? Yeah.

Yeah, so it's kind of interesting. When I initially made my contact with the state attorney's office, they were like, hey, we have no file on the John Wells case. They thought I was calling to ask about their open case file. And they're like, we've never opened technically a case on this because...

When law enforcement brought it to us way back in the day, when there was, again, a different state's attorney, it like never went anywhere. So there's never been like a case open with the state attorney's office. So really, they need that piece from a law enforcement agency, ideally the initial investigating agency, to then come to the state attorney's office, which isn't an investigating agency, but does have an investigative arm somewhat.

to all of them get on the same page and then begin to pursue hopefully a prosecution. So, yeah, he's kind of stuck in this like he can't just go out there charging people, you know, with with no case. But I think DeSoto County coming to them with the right stuff or at least inviting another agency in to get the right stuff is going to be where Ed can actually do something with the case. So that's kind of how it works.

The contact information for the two agencies I'm talking about, the DeSoto County Sheriff's Office and the 12th Judicial District in Florida, that's all in the show notes and on the website. And with that awesome update said, Ashley, I feel like we needed to, like, present that first. I know. I almost thought you were going to make people wait till the end to hear that. And I was like, you got to just, like, give it a shot. Oh, I know. I did. I did.

It's time to roll right into some of these listener questions because, you know, a lot of them actually have to do with the evidence in John's case and specifically what the sheriff's office did or didn't do with some of that stuff and why and maybe what they could do now if we can get this ball rolling again.

So, Ashley, something I was unable to really get my hands on for a long time during this investigation were photos of John's actual .22 revolver, the gun authorities presumed to be the murder weapon used to shoot John. This was something that, you know, I wanted to, like, give that firearm directly to Aaron Brunel, our expert, but...

I just was never able to kind of get any sort of visualization of those. And Helen Hough, John's mom, says that the gun itself was never returned to the family. Which I actually have a question about because, again, coming back to the idea that this was ruled an accident, would they keep evidence in an accident or should that have been returned to the family? It's so murky. So when they decided to change the manner of death and call it a undetermined,

That should have triggered the release because the case in DeSoto County's office file says case closed, you know, end of story. So I would imagine that stuff should have gone back to next of kin, which legally was Helen Huff and Mack Wells, but that didn't happen. So I'm assuming that, you know, the undetermined label, because it leaves the window open for so much,

Maybe they didn't. Maybe they just kept it. All I know from speaking to the family members is that it's never been seen or given to them again. So I also I mean, we've been doing this long enough that I would not be shocked at all should the case get reopened if all of a sudden the evidence like wasn't there. Yeah, I mean, and that's that's such a big question is because there's no documentation of a reevaluation of that evidence in 2016 or 2017, which is something you think is

Right.

So we don't have the gun. She's never gotten the gun back. And again, you didn't have pictures. Right. And I also didn't have images of John's holster, the belts, any of the other stuff that Patrick, Skip and Pat stated they picked up at the original crime scene and, you know, then took home. You know, all that stuff was something. But... Yes. But...

I now have pictures of all that stuff. And it's kind of a wild story of how I got a hold of them. And I kind of put it in this category of like counterclockwise, like just the way I came to get them is just very, very up counterclocks alley. So Helen was recently going through a bunch of old boxes in her house because she's in the process of potentially having to move. And she found a bunch of like CD-ROM discs that

the sheriff's office gave her after they closed John's case or some sometime in between 2003 and 2016. Like, I don't even know when she got some of this stuff since it was like tucked away. Who only knows? But she could not get her computer to open the files on the disk. So she gave them to me.

And I was able to view what was on them. And in a folder, like with a bunch of other copies of police reports and stuff that like I already had as my own public records requests, there was a couple of folders where there was a bunch of evidence photos. And I was like, what is this? Yeah. And you put those up for people to see, right? On the website.

on the website? Yeah, so everything is on the blog post for this episode. It's on the website, counterclockpodcast.com. And you guys really need to take a look at these pictures because they are truly better than anything that I could have imagined. Like just, it's just great. So for one thing,

I feel completely validated that the gun, our firearm expert, I mentioned Aaron Brudnell, he purchased and test fired like an exact model comparison of John's gun. Like, so it wasn't John's gun, but it was like literally the next best thing. And so now having a picture of John's gun, I know based on what the pictures of the gun Aaron tested, like they're exactly the same. Like there's no difference. So I felt really validated that we did like as unique and great of a comparison effort

you know, experiment as we could. And so that made me feel really good about his findings. And secondly, there's one photo of John's gun that I think is absolutely critical. And I kind of want you to read what's on the gun in this picture, Ashley. Yeah, and it's like engraved in a crystal clear. So this picture shows John's

Ruger's manufacturer stamp literally etched into the metal on the side of the gun and it says, "New Model Single 6." You cannot miss it. Exactly. So there's no denying in my mind that the gun police took into evidence the gun in this photo, John's gun, was the Ruger model that had the new and improved safety feature, which prevented it from accidentally firing if it was dropped. Yeah, without question.

But, OK, so this kind of brings up something. What about Mel Sr.'s gun? So we knew that they both had these Ruger revolvers. They were what, like identical guns, right? Pretty much. Yeah. You mentioned that that gun could have been accessible to anyone at the farm when John died. Yeah.

Do we have pictures of that or anything? So that's a question that a lot of listeners wrote in about. Like I reported on in the show, the whereabouts of Mel Sr.'s gun are still unknown. And I don't have like a true evidence photo of that because it was never taken into evidence. So there is, you know, there isn't anything to look at it.

But all I know is just maybe in Carrie's storage unit or maybe she gave it away. Yes. So it's whereabouts. Like I've said, it's it's it's really one of those things that just floating out there. But I do think it's really important because I know that investigators never took it as evidence, despite Matt, John's older brother, telling DeSoto County Sheriff's Office about it.

We know Carrie Skip's fiance had Mel Sr.'s gun at one point. Now, whether she still has it or sold it in a four-wheeler transaction, cash transaction, like she said she did, that's still kind of murky to me. But I did have a listener reach out who thought,

that, you know, he might have located Mel Sr.'s gun. And this is something that like came. Yeah, it came, you know, birthed out of the podcast. And so I did not get a text about this. Wait, what happened? Yeah. So no joke, no joke. Through a string of different people from Arcadia. See, there's people who like, you know, they don't only listen to the show, but they're like, this is our community. But they've since moved away. They got in contact with a man who said that after his dad died a few years ago, he got a box of his dad's stuff.

And in it was a Ruger 22 single action six shot revolver, just like John's, like literally carbon copy. So this guy told me that his family went way back in Arcadia and he even sent me pictures and videos of this gun that he had. And it was an older model Ruger six shot revolver. But none of the serial numbers on his gun came close to what law enforcement noted that the serial number numerics were for Mel Sr.'s gun.

So wait, hang on. So law enforcement took the time to like note down the serial number of Mel's gun? Yes. But didn't take any pictures or collect it? Right. So it's in a report where law enforcement takes down a serial number because Matt is the one to take it out of the safe at the home and show it to them. And they take down a serial number for it, but they do not take it into evidence or at least they don't document themselves taking it into evidence.

Right. So Mel Sr.'s gun is just this, you know, it's just this giant question mark. But back to the guy who wrote in and was like, I think I might have his gun.

It didn't have the same numerics, like I said, and it also didn't have any initials engraved on it. So it didn't have Mel Sr. or Skips, you know, since they have the same name. It didn't have that on it. And it actually did, though, have some like crude like etching of the initials C and M like on the handle. But this again, this looked like somebody took like.

you know, a nail and, like, scratch it. Like, it was not engraved or done in, like, any professional way. So, though, like, that was, like, an exciting, like... False alarm. Yeah, it was, like, such a false alarm. It did kind of result in, like, a dead end as far as I can tell. Delia, if you would have found...

another 22 that could have potentially like solved a case? Like you'd be setting like a real precedent for yourself. Season three, season four. What is with all these 22s? I know. 22s are like the gun in every show I have. But yeah, so I think it would have been great to have that one. But since season four came out, though, I've done a little bit more digging into the history of Mel Senor's gun. I've been trying to find

Like, facts about it that I can verify and researching the serial number, right? I mean, because that's, like, that should be, that should have been, like, a, you know, a slam dunk as far as, like, okay, here's the gun, here's in possession of it now, like, if it went through any sort of legal transaction. But you said, like, in the show, you were like, oh, it's missing a number, right? Right, right. So, you know, initially when I read the police reports where the serial number for Mel Sr.'s gun is written down, I mistakenly thought it was missing a numeric or that, like, it was recorded wrong, but...

Turns out it wasn't. And thanks to a listener who wrote in, her name is Jessica. Shout out to Jessica. We were able to find out a little more about the gun and to correct that information and get some clarity about, you know, that serial number and stuff. So it turns out that the serial number for Mel's gun, which is 20-05485,

is just a really, really old serial number in Ruger's system. And it's not one that you can search in Ruger's online database. So like every time I was plugging it into their website, which is really well done, by the way, you know, you just put it in, I kept getting an error message. And so I just thought that it was like non-existent. Like I was like, okay, you know, something's wrong here.

But Jessica, she actually worked for Ruger for five years and several of her family members still work there. And they're familiar with how to track down like these old serial numbers that don't come up in the normal search.

So, thanks to her getting me access to an older serial number database, we officially confirmed with Ruger's records that Mel Sr.'s gun was made sometime in 1969. So it was definitely not this new model, you know, single six. It was older. And I actually found the flyer for Ruger's recall for that gun. And if you, you know, want some light, entertaining reading, you can go look at that flyer. It's on the blog post for this episode. But...

I mean, it clearly says, like, this gun was recalled. It had a bad hammer. It had a bad, you know, transfer plate and stuff like that. I mean, but regardless of when his gun was made, Mel's gun, or whether it was the kind with the ability to misfire or not, like, I guess, is the thinking that

That one is still the one that caused John's death? Well, again, I think that's where myself and so many listeners, we want to know the answer to that, right? I mean, it's something that I think law enforcement should have asked back in the day. But the answer is we don't know for sure if it was

present when John died. What I can prove is that it was in the, you know, I think Aaron called it the limited universe, right, of possibility there on that farm. So I think it's in the realm of possibility that it could have been involved. But proving that is a whole, you know, another thing. But

It's good that we're talking about this, though, because about a week after the show dropped, I circled back with David Payne, our favorite associate producer, who he joined me on a couple of trips to Arcadia to do some field work. And he and I discussed our thoughts about Mel Sr.'s gun and, you know, just the crime scene in general.

And we've come up with a theory that I think aligns with the evidence and brings into question the two biggest assumptions about this case, which is what gun fired the bullet that killed John and where on the Southeast Hansel property he was shot.

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OK, so the way you just said where John was shot kind of has me sweating. So what do you mean? OK, Ashley, so you and I have always said that everything from the 911 call to the timeline of Pat and Skip's whereabouts to when they're claiming to look for John or why they even went over there looking for him so soon after he went to take the trash. All of that just has always felt really convenient, maybe a little too convenient. Yeah.

Well, David brought up something interesting about that when he and I chatted a few weeks ago. I think just now listening to it back again and hearing the whole sequence of it, I think there's an assumption that was made by the sheriff's office that the crime scene was over in the pasture. And as you and I have talked, it's very possible that the crime scene could have been back at the house.

When he's told to take out the trash and there's a flat tire on the trailer and he has to go to Walmart and get the fix-it, the fix-it doesn't work. I think it's very plausible that there was a scene that happened at the house where all those things conflated together.

And whether it was an accident or intentional, something I think happened at the house, I think that's where John was probably shot. They never processed the house as a crime scene. They never processed the Ford Explorer as a crime scene.

I mean, he's got a point. I mean, one thing that makes sense with that theory is something that you actually told me early on, which is that John's T-shirt and hat were never taken as evidence. And isn't it Skip who literally told the cops John took his hat and shirt off at the house? So...

I mean, right there is a reason that police should have at least done some kind of forensic processing at the house. And again, to the explorer. Right. Yeah. So, you know, I agree with you on that. But now I'll tell you my fact based approach to this theory and why I think it's possible John might have been shot at the house or closer to the house than way back in the woods.

So we know from forensic reports by FDLE that John's blood was found on the right side fender clutch and other parts of the four wheeler. Right. Right. So I'm not making that up. I have two close up photos of the blood evidence investigators found on the four wheeler.

Yeah, I mean, as far as evidence photos goes, these are pretty good. Like, it looks like detectives took a measurement of what looks like a blood smear directly on the ATV's right side handlebar where someone's hand would go if you were riding on it. Exactly. Now, you and I, we're not blood spatter experts. Like, I don't think we ever claim to be. But to me, what these photos show is that there was blood present in small amounts on the right side of the four-wheeler.

The question is, how did it get there? Is it cast-off blood spatter? Is it drops of blood that then got smeared by someone's hand or in some other way? And there's really no way to know for sure just from looking at the photos. But what I do know is that John was right-handed.

So maybe his hand is what put this blood on the handlebar. I don't know. But think about this scenario for a minute. The FDLA forensic reports also state that a trace of John's blood was found on the barrel of his own revolver.

What I wonder is, what if John's gun isn't the murder weapon? What if he's wearing his gun in his holster on his belt while he's working on the four-wheeler in the backyard of the house? And then something happens, and he's shot there in the backyard with Mel Sr.'s identical revolver. His blood gets on the right side of the ATV in a few spots, and a little bit also lands on the barrel of his gun, which is holstered on his hip.

What if the blood on John's gun wasn't cast off from his own gun shooting him in the face? What if the blood on the barrel of his gun is just transferred, like the same kind of blood transfer that landed on the parts of the ATV?

Which makes sense because, again, it was only a little bit on his barrel, right? Yeah, like just barely enough to test and like get his DNA profile from. Which is something that always bothered me. Like, again, if we're talking an accident, like you would think that there would be more cast off on the barrel that shot someone unless it was far away, which the medical reports show is feet away. Again, does not make sense if, I don't know, moving on.

My big question about this, though, so if this is just like, OK, he shot with another gun and it drops, it drips on it. Like, again, I don't own a gun. So I'm trying to picture it. When you holster a gun, isn't the barrel facing down? How would it get on the barrel? That's what I don't understand.

So two scenarios. It could be on John and the barrel obviously is like face down, like closer to his thigh. But then I also go back to what Beth Flowers said about the way John would put his gun on his four wheeler, which is that sometimes she said he would take it and he would lay it on like the racks on the back or he would lay it on the on the front kind of underneath the handlebars or like even on his lap.

So to me, wherever the gun barrel is, it can get cast off blood on it. And that very well may be the blood, you know, that they, quote unquote, found on the barrel. So I just think that that John's gun is present in some angle, form or fashion while he shot. If, in fact, his gun is not the murder weapon.

And then when you think about that scenario, what if after he shot, not with his own gun, but with Mel Sr.'s gun, what if he's taken over to the woods and then a scene is staged there to make it look like that's where he was shot? And, you know, David also had some thoughts about this. You can square all of the evidence by just reframing where did this event happen?

And I think it's a very real possibility that it could have happened at the house when they're trying to fix the four-wheeler. The fix-a-flat doesn't work. There's frustration, you know, everybody's tired, on and on and on. That, to me, seems a lot more likely than he's dragging the trash over there and then somebody shoots him over there. I think it's even more likely that it's not the murder weapon because of the whole fingerprint scenario.

And I think that Mel Sr.'s gun, which was available in the kitchen, which, you know, is right going to be right off of where they were trying to fix the flat, was available right there. So I think there is evidence that clearly could support a theory that the other gun was the weapon, the other Ruger, Mel Sr.'s gun.

I mean, I can see that.

I think you actually mentioned in one of the last episodes how it doesn't really make sense if John's gun was planted at the scene and it's in his room the whole time. How would it have gotten his blood on the barrel? We always come back to this like blood on the barrel. But I think the scenario that you and David are talking about actually explains that John's gun could have been a plant and still have traces of his blood on it. Like it was just planted.

present when he was shot but not necessarily the gun that shot him. I mean, it makes total sense when you paint the picture. Yeah, and something else David and I discussed that might suggest that John was shot closer to home is that testimony from Martin Hollingsworth. He's the neighbor who was never interviewed by police but, you know, said he heard the gunshot. I

Delia, I can't. How was this man never spoken to? I don't know. You know, it was a question that a few listeners had, too. And, you know, really don't get me started on what went through my mind when, you know, Martin answered the phone and then he told me he'd never been questioned by law enforcement. Like, that's a whole other, you know, journey for me that I can't even get into. But, yeah.

Something that's just kind of common sense that I thought about after talking to Martin and then taking the trips out to Arcadia is how far away Martin's house would have been from where John is presumed to have been shot in the woods. Like, when you're out there in person, Martin's house would have been a really good distance from the trash pile, like at least a mile, if not more. So...

Think of it kind of like, you know, a straight line with Martin's house being all the way to the right. The straighter home is somewhere slightly in the middle of that line. And then like all the way to the far left is where John was found in the woods. And we're talking about John being shot with a revolver that had a low caliber ammunition loaded into it. I mean, you know, the videos that our firearms expert Aaron sent me of his tests, like, you know, wildfires.

running different scenarios on this gun is that, you know, when a .22 revolver fires 17 caliber ammo, it's not this like big, loud sound at all.

So I've considered that perhaps the reason Martin heard that single gunshot around 1230, like he said he did, was because maybe that shot came from somewhere closer to his house, like the yard of the Strader home, like not way back in the woods. Again, not a gun owner. Like, in my mind, it's all just loud. So I would have assumed before this that you would have heard it from, like, any distance. But if it's not making a loud noise, that kind of changes everything. Yeah.

So just a side thing here, something that's interesting is right before the Strader property, like between where the home is and then across the street where the field was that John died in, there's this old wooden bridge. It's literally made with like timbers. And when people drive over it, it makes this like pretty loud noise because it's just like all these timbers like rattling together.

You hear that when you're kind of like near the Strader home, the sawmill, and like in that area. Well, we drove around to where Martin Hollingsworth would have lived. And when you're over like in his old property, you can't even hear that timber bridge where like

Stuff is like rattling like super, super loud. And so to me, if you can't even hear that and that's closer, then you're saying there's a gunshot like at least a half a mile to three quarters of a mile beyond that. And yet Martin saying he hears the gunshot, that tells me... So distinctly too that he knew it was a gunshot, right? Not even just like a crack or something like that. So that tells me that maybe that gunshot Martin heard is...

even closer than the wooden bridge. So it's closer to his property, perhaps in the yard of the Strader home. So that's just like to give people some perspective. And I talked this through with David too, and he really saw what I was getting at. That's a great point because it's really, the Strader house is much closer than the trash site. And it's a small caliber bullet, right? So it's not going to be some loud bang. So-

That's a really good point. And which direction did he hear the bullet from? Because they're very different directions. If the trash site is three quarters of a mile away, then you've got to add on another quarter mile or so back to Martin Hollingsworth's house. You're talking about him hearing a gunshot for a small caliber gun about a mile away, three quarters to a mile away, versus probably over to Pat Strader's house, maybe a third of a mile away.

And I just want to be clear to all the listeners, there's no way that we can prove this for sure. Martin Hollingsworth's memory these days isn't what it used to be. He's a pretty old man. And, you know, all I know is that the sound and the distance that sound travels is really just not something that you can like fake or fudge on. Right. I mean, there's it's science. You know, it either travels that distance or it doesn't. And unfortunately, we couldn't get access to the property to actually like test it. But authorities could.

Oh, yeah. You know, and if Martin heard what he said he heard, you know, I think it's completely possible that a gun was fired much closer to his home and it wasn't deep in the woods. You know, again, muffled by trees and, you know, roughly a mile away. And I could be totally wrong on this, but I think it's an observation worth noting when we're considering, you know, again, this theory, if John was even shot in the woods at all.

What did Helen say, his mom, when you told her about this? Like, does she buy into this theory that it could potentially be Mel Sr.'s gun that's involved in all of this? Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, she thinks it could be. I re-interviewed her after season four released, and she said that she wasn't even aware that Mel's gun, like, had any relevance until, you know, she listened to the show. I didn't know about this second gun. This podcast brought that up, too.

Nothing makes sense. Just like you said, just when you think you know, you don't. For her, the podcast, like, in general, was really eye-opening, and she told me she really started to question a lot of things, including the two interviews that her other son, Matt, had with investigators back in 2003.

And like, I want to be really completely transparent here. Helen and Matt are not on speaking terms. They haven't been for a very long time. And Helen also has no contact with another one of her sons from a previous marriage named Kyle. So, you know, just to put it out there, because some listeners did have questions about, you know, this kind of family relationship. And, you know, when it comes to her sons, there is, you know, definitely a history of problems between Helen and Matt and Kyle, you know, but despite that,

Even Mack Wells, you know, Matt and John's dad, he said that, you know, growing up, Matt and John, they did not get along. Like, that's undisputed.

But Matt, when John got old enough to mess with toys and stuff like that, he didn't like it at all. There was always fights and separation and stuff like that. Matt went to stay with his dad for a while. And it wasn't until recently I found out about some very violent behaviors and tantrums that Matt would do when he didn't get his own way. Matt told me about Matt once.

that he was fixing hamburgers one night and he put it on the plate, but mistakenly the bun top was on the bottom instead and the bottom bun, you know, they look different, but it's bread. And he said he threw a tantrum and like to fell out of the chair because the hamburger was upside down. I personally watched him almost hit John in the head with a big Tonka truck toy

And even when they got older, it was nyeh-nyeh-nyeh all the time. It was a constant fight. And I'll be honest, I did ask Kurt where Matt was that day. Do you have any proof that you were not on Joshua Creek between 12.30 and 4 o'clock?

But, you know, the boys having behavioral issues is hardly a reason to point the finger at Matt. I mean, to be honest, Ashley, I think we go through this with a lot of stories. We talk about like sibling and family dynamics. So I do want to be fair to him here.

Right. I mean, just because it was known that Matt and John bickered as siblings, like that isn't a reason to cast suspicion on him. Also, I bickered with my siblings, maybe not in this way, but like it doesn't it doesn't just because they fought. He also didn't really gain a whole lot from what I understand. But I mean, clearly at the time, detectives had to vet his story just like they did to everyone else.

But do we actually have an understanding of to what extent that his alibi of being 45 minutes away at school was actually looked into? Yeah, the only information I have about Matt's whereabouts is from those two interviews he did with law enforcement in 2003, which for some reason were not videotaped. It was kind of strange, but they were not recorded in any way other than the written transcript.

And another thing is that Matt's DNA was never taken or compared to any evidence. And to go back to your kind of wondering about did he stand anything to gain, what I'll say, I'll just put it out there, is that the person who is in possession of the sawmill today, the person who lives on the property today, is Matt. So in some ways, a lot of things did go to Matt. Now, again, that could have just been because of time, but that is something that is apparent.

Well, to come back to the DNA, this is actually something that I wanted to ask you about. One of the biggest questions that I walked away with, because it's amazing how, again, I can like be deep in it with you. But when I like hear the story back, it kind of triggers new ideas, kind of like what David experienced. And when I was listening back to the final audio, even before we released it, I remember one thought just like sticking with me. And I think it was in episode eight. You talk about there being some DNA that was fantasized.

Do you remember where that was? Because I remember whatever it was, it was like Skip and Patrick could be ruled out, but Pat could not. Where was that? I believe if memory serves me correctly, it was the advanced touch DNA testing that they did on the firearm or on one of John's belts. It was definitely a critical piece of evidence that was taken as evidence that they did some advanced testing on.

Right. So, again, not it's not that it was a perfect match to Pat, but she couldn't be ruled out. So then my mind started spinning because I kind of had like, again, this context about Matt kind of in the background. And I kept thinking about where his DNA would fall in all of this. And so do you have any sense of that?

Whether Skip and Patrick were ruled out because the DNA was male, because, you know, it was female DNA, or was it actually like lineage? Because in my mind, I'm like, OK, Skip and Patrick are not related. And if there is some kind of mitochondrial nuclear DNA at play here, Pat and Matt would share DNA, but his was never tested. Yeah.

Right. Am I like am I am I spiraling or what? No, no, no. Yeah. So it's it's a really good point. And from what I remember reading in the reports, I could go back and double check. But I am fairly certain that there was no gender delineation, whereas, you know, this came from a male. This came from a female contributor. So that I do not remember seeing.

But the fact that they say, you know, Pat can't be excluded, I think it's a really good point. It would show that someone in her familial line, herself or somebody else, is potentially tied with some amount of DNA markers to that. And so, yeah, it does raise the question of, OK, well, is it Pat? Is it someone else in the line? We know, you know, Helen's alibi is locked in with multiple witnesses. So that kind of eliminates her. But yeah, I think it's a good point.

But again, I think this all comes back to the fact of the matter, which is to this day, Matt has never been considered a suspect in John's death. It's never said in reports that he is a suspect or even a strong person of interest. And at least that's not what they ever stated. Which I totally understand. And again, this is the frustrating part about not having a thorough investigation, because we're not over here saying like, oh, Matt for sure did it. But like not enough was done to

in the investigation to say that anyone didn't, Matt or otherwise. And again, if that had been done, if he had had his DNA collected and was ruled out like everyone else, it's something that could still easily be done. I think that to me, at least, is the frustrating part is so much was just like left to speculation or to assumptions that DCSO made and then closed the book on.

Yeah. And that includes what you asked earlier, which is vetting, vetting his alibi, right? Vetting, is he where he's supposed to be and all that kind of stuff. So several listeners who wrote in, they wanted to know more about how Kurt Mays verified Matt's whereabouts on the day that John died. I mean, this was like, I think a couple dozen questions were regarding this. And to be honest, I couldn't find any paperwork by law enforcement that states that

If Kurt did like actually go to the school and like pull the records and he obviously won't do an interview with me now. So I couldn't find that.

I mean, one thing I know, you actually tried to get in touch with the community college where he was registered for classes that summer, right? Yeah, for sure. But, I mean, ultimately they said they couldn't tell you if he was actually in class on July 8th. Correct. So it was just so interesting because it was one of those threads that, like, I felt like I was so close, like I was right there. So the school, they couldn't give me his class attendance records due to privacy reasons. And, you know, I don't know if they ever provided those to law enforcement.

Like, I don't know if Kurt went there and got them. I don't know if they, like, volunteered them, like, over a phone call. Like, I don't know. And it's not written down. So, you know, who knows? But...

All I know is that the day John died was the Tuesday after the Fourth of July holiday weekend. So, you know, again, think about this. If Matt had classes that week, his Monday courses, they might have been canceled, like in observance of the holiday, which is pretty typical. But he should have been at his Tuesday class. And honestly, law enforcement nowadays, like they could easily go and corroborate this because the school was able to pull them up. They just couldn't tell me like yes or no.

Again, there are no school records for him, right? Yeah, there's no school records for him. So to me, like, there's even a bigger question of like, did he have class on Tuesday? Because I mean, I know when I was attending school, like I, again, granted, I worked full time, but I didn't have class every single day. Like there would be one day where, or it was a really light, like it would just be one lab or something. Yeah.

Well, so the school clarified. They said he had a class that was registered for a class on that Tuesday. On Tuesdays. OK, OK. So I just don't have like the checkmark. Was he there? Was he there? They can't tell me that. They certainly could tell law enforcement that if law enforcement got a warrant or again, even just did some due diligence. I don't even know if a warrant would be necessary. Right.

OK, so what are some other questions that listeners wanted to dig into? I'm betting a ton were about Pat's 911 call. Well, you know, it depends which one. The one from back in 2003 or the one where she called the cops on David and I. Delia, that was another one of my favorite moments from this, you reporting this season. It's like when you call me and you're like, you're not going to believe what just happened. I was like, if I don't make it out of Arcadia, like, you know why? Yeah.

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Most of the questions listeners had about Pat's 911 call were really trying to analyze and break down what exactly Pat is saying on the call. And Ashley, you and I know that statement analysis is super interesting, but we always preface anything like that with the caveat that you never know how you'll react in a situation like this.

Right. I mean, it's something I can feel you. I can feel your eyes. Because I would be like, but that being said, it's just like no matter how many times I listen to that 911 call, it just doesn't sit right. And not even it's not even to me like that.

The emotion of it all, because I think that's the thing that like I can give a lot of leeway for people is like because I know when I'm like in distress, like I go into problem solving mode. And so God forbid something ever happened to me. I can I can see myself being like very matter of fact and being like, OK, I'm going to I'm just going to fix this.

It's the information that comes at the freaking bees. I can't. It's the information that comes out in these calls that is just so bizarre for me. Yeah. And you're right. You know, the call, it's littered with problems. I think anybody can, you know, agree on that. You know, there's lack of emotion, for example. There's a lot of extra words in it that you wouldn't anticipate with someone who's like, you know, in a panic.

as well as a lot of other strange things like, you know, the bees. The bees. The bees. I think I literally just texted you 35,000 times while you were reporting on this and just being like, the bees. It was just bee emoji after bee emoji. So, you know, well, whether it's the bees or, you know, Pat's lack of urgency that some people have observed, the 911 call is something that David and I, you know, will never be over. And I think he really summed it up best with this statement.

The behaviors of everyone in this family are not consistent with what you would expect. It all is this stew of really inconsistent, odd behavior by this family. You're right. That was perfect.

Yeah. So aside from, you know, how you interpret what Pat is saying, I think something that is way more important is the fact that she used a landline to place the 911 call in the first place. Like not a cell phone, a landline. And did Pat have a cell phone? No, Pat did not. Skip did. So it's that's something that that, you know, Helen, she has thought about this for years now.

Why didn't they leave him there to go up to her house to use a landline? So I totally space on that. So Skip had a phone and he had it on him that day, right? Like because he was making calls, right? Yes. Like this is something I will never understand. We know from Skip's phone records that he made calls from his cell phone prior to that 911 call coming in from the landline at Pat's house.

So in my mind, like, why wasn't Skip dialing 911 right there at the trash pile when they first found John? Like, why are we waiting to get back to the house before we tell anyone that John needs help? I mean, like, in my mind, like, again, at one point, I think in the interrogation tapes, they say like, oh, you know, he didn't have great service or something. But like, that's not true because he's making calls. Yes, exactly.

Well, the only other thing I can think is, again, like one of the things that Pat says on the 911 call is they keep asking, did you try CPR? And she's like, no. And when they get interviewed about this later, they're just like to them, it was so clear that he was deceased, which, again, yeah, don't understand. You don't understand at all.

But I guess you could say potentially that's why. But it still doesn't make sense. Even if you thought he was deceased, like I'm thinking about being a panicked family member who finds a loved one dead and you have a cell phone on you. Why? I still don't. I still don't understand driving back home to make the call.

Yeah, and I think this is something that a lot of listeners really latched on to, which is, you know, if you're a parent or a grandparent, I mean, you and I are parents now, right? Like, if something happened to one of, you know, my kid, I said one of my children, I only have one right now, but like to my child, right?

Or like my parents saw something happen to him, like they would be on that phone immediately, no matter like where they were, even if they didn't have good service, they would be dialing, dialing, dialing till it went through. As I'm like running to like and then holding the phone up to find a signal. Yeah. Yeah. So again, you know, that in and of itself is, you know, one of the biggest red flags. And, you know, it made a lot of people, including law enforcement back in the day, really, you know, look sideways at Pat and Skip. Mm-hmm.

But something else that a lot of listeners had questions about was why Pat drove to get gas before picking up Patrick. That was another big like what the heck for a lot of people.

One listener pointed out something that I thought was actually kind of interesting, and that's that John didn't get gas when he was at the Walmart. Like, if he's going all the way to the store to get the tire fixer flat, you know, like Skip asked him to do, and the Explorer needs gas because, again, he's the last person to drive it before Pat gets to it.

Pat later stated that, you know, that the Explorer needed gas. So then why didn't John get gas while he was out and about? Like, why did Pat go to get gas? To be fair, though, like, that is something that I have no problem writing off as just, like, John is a teenage boy. And if he's, like, sent out to run an errand or a chore and get a fix-a-flat, and even if he's almost on empty, teenage boy logic is like, well, you didn't ask me to do that. You know what I mean? So, like...

That I don't totally understand. But here's my question, though, is like how far the Walmart was from their house? It was like seven minutes there, seven minutes back. So like really close. But farther than like to Patrick's house, right? No, Patrick's house is like a couple hundred yards away.

That's what part doesn't make sense to me. It's like why, like you drove all the way to Walmart to get gas just to pick up Patrick, who was actually closer than Walmart. So did you, if you could make it to Walmart, could you get, unless they were planning on driving around for a long time. I don't know, man. Yeah, the going to get gas, the, you know, making sure she had the receipt, like all of that, again, just boils down to like a lot of questions. But just that piece about like, why didn't John get gas while he was out and about?

I just thought it was an interesting observation. Again, it's not something that makes me, you know, have like an aha moment or anything like that. All right. Here's another question that a lot of people asked about. It had to do with the rusty barrel Patrick and Skip said was on top of John's back when they first found him. Yeah. So this was the most asked question by far from all of the listener submissions that we got. Yeah.

Yeah. And I can see why, because the second that I found out about it, I couldn't stop thinking about it. Like, how does something like that accidentally get onto a person's back who accidentally shot themselves and fell in and they're face down in the water? Like, none of it makes sense. Yeah. So the barrel itself is interesting. It's one of those pieces of evidence that

I feel is definitely like unnatural is the best word I can put to it in the sense that it should not be on John's back if this is some sort of accidental, you know, mistaken shooting yourself scenario or some like weird series of events.

But even if it wasn't an accident, I can't find a single scenario that it does make sense. Because even if we're going to go with an alternative route and say this was staged, putting that on, again, does not look like an accident. So what would even be the logic of putting that on him?

I don't know. And to get into the mind. No one can explain this. Yeah. To get into the mind of the person who did it, if we're looking at that scenario, it's just a really hard question to answer. Is there a world in which, like, I don't know anything about how the water flows, how it was flowing that day. Is there a world where, again, John is in the water no matter how he got there, that the barrel could have flowed and landed on him in the short amount of time that he was out there?

So that's a scenario. We'll get to that in a second because I have like a lot of thoughts and scenarios about that, especially because of some stuff that was found on the barrel. So speaking of stuff that's found on the barrel, one of the big listener questions was if the barrel was ever tested for any kind of fingerprints or for blood evidence. And the answer to those questions is no, it wasn't. Again, another no, that didn't happen kind of scenario. So

There is no documentation from detectives that the barrel was ever processed or collected and sent to the crime lab. It's not on the inventory for the things that FDLE did testing on. The only thing that I could find that talked about the barrel in any detail was Detective Kurt May's field reports. And he stated that when the barrel was first found...

It had a sandy shoe print impression on the top of it that looked like it had come from like some kind of boot. Do we have a picture of that? Does anyone have a picture of that? Yeah.

There are pictures of the barrel on the blog post for this, but no forensic impressions were taken to measure the size or the tread marks of the print. So, you know, to me, it could have only come from a few scenarios. But again, it's not like I have a photo of like, you know, how they have like the measuring stick next to it and they're trying to take impressions or anything like that. Which is like bananas to me because again, like, did you look at the bottom of anyone's shoes that day? Yeah. Anyone?

It's like, again, but to play fair here, they find this when they find John and he's a drowning victim and all this stuff. And they don't really go back to like do any sort of detective work until the next day. Is the barrel gone by that point? Like, did they throw it back in the water?

No, I mean, they took pictures of it, so it's still there. But like, I guess in my mind, like they're not thinking to measure people's boots like right then and there on day one. Again, this is me giving grace. I'm trying to give some grace here. But sure, day one. But like, as far as I know, they didn't collect a bunch of shoes after. I don't know, man. This is like. Yeah. But so to go back to your question of how that treadmark got on.

to the barrel. There's only a couple of scenarios. One, John stepped on or kicked the barrel as he went into the water, if we're going to believe he truly was alone out there in the woods that day. Like, perhaps he just hit it with his foot, whatever. But the second scenario is someone's

someone else stepped on the barrel and they put John into the water or they kicked it out over his body once he was already in the water. Or three, the sandy shoe print on the barrel is from some other event that has like nothing to do with the day John died, which is what you kind of said earlier about like floating or whatever. Maybe that barrel like dislodged from the trash heap and it floated over to John's body after he went into the water.

you know, again, maybe law enforcement disturbed it. Like, I'm not saying the shoe print didn't come from law enforcement. Like, I truly don't know. But I kind of find that kind of dislodged and then went over John's body, that last scenario hard to believe because...

Kurt Mays stated that it appeared to be like a fresh shoe impression, you know, in sand on the barrel. And, you know, a few days before John's death, there was a lot of rain in Arcadia. So I doubt that sand would have stayed on that barrel like during a rainstorm, right? Like it's put there that it's the shoe print gets there the day in the events that led to John's death.

Or it's like, again, it's in some sort of scenario where law enforcement sees it. But it's definitely not, again, that... Well, and to the question that I asked earlier, again, we've got this Sandy shoe print. It's not... John's in the water again, however he got there. It's not like this thing was floating in the water and then ended up there with... Then how's the shoe print on there if no one else had come by? And again, I know you want to give grace, but I'm here to be like...

No. Again, even if you show up and you're like, oh, it's an accident, this barrel stands out. Even if you're like, he fell in. If there was a barrel with a shoe print, I don't understand how you don't think that's significant. Yeah. And again, this is kind of out of left field, but I go back to, if anyone has listened to Counter Clock Season 2, one of the big things, no spoilers here, but one of the big things that they were able to

catch Mike Brennan when I was talking about like the break-ins and all that kind of stuff in the courthouse is like he kicked he kicked the walls in to try and get to the evidence vault and he like they like found his boot prints and shoe prints and that's like one of the pieces of evidence they found on him was his boots and they like connected that so I'm like again not a spoiler for those that haven't listened but like that's like classic police like you have something that you can compare to a physical object and so to not get that in this case I think is just really really inexcusable

I agree. But we must move on. So here's an interesting question that came in kind of along those lines. Did you ever consider interviewing people who previously worked DCSO or FDLE around the time that John died just to see if they could offer any information about the strange event?

activity, the way it was investigated, or rumors that they heard about the department? So my answer to that is yes. I communicated or tried to communicate in one way or the other with everyone who worked this case. I was on the phone a lot. I was texting people. You know, I even tried to convince a few deputies who'd previously worked for DCSO to talk with me about, you know, the department's inner workings. But

Again, none of them wanted to go on record or be a named source because we're talking about a very small town with a lot of people that have a lot at stake. However, in the aftermath of season four, I did get a few people reach out to me and, you know, they had some really interesting information. Tell me everything.

So before I go into it, though, I really need to, you know, I want to have caution here. I want to say that this next bit I'm going to talk about has to do with some really concerning information that I recently learned about, you know, a key figure of law enforcement who had probably, I would say, the most important role in this case. Kim? No, James Curdy. Oh, OK. So what's concerning then?

Well, I want to preface everything I'm about to say with, you know, sincere empathy. And I want to let our listeners know that in no way am I making light of a serious mental health situation. But I think once I get into it and I kind of explain it, you'll see why I'm even bringing it up. So if you're out there listening and you're triggered by the discussion of attempts of self-harm or you have any thoughts of choosing to take your own life, you guys should probably just skip ahead in the episode a couple of minutes.

That being said, there is an incident involving James Curdy from February of 2020 that, you know, I think should be something that a law enforcement agency like FDLE or the Florida Attorney General's Office or the state attorney's office should consider if, you know, they ever want to determine if the brief investigation that James did into the death of John Wells was the most competent and informed that it could have been.

So back in 2020, the Charlotte County Sheriff's Office, which is a neighboring agency to DeSoto County Sheriff's Office, was called out to a home because the man inside the house was threatening to take his own life. And that man was James Curdy. Whoa. So...

I mean, again, I like this is in what, 2020? So it's not like, again, you can you can separate things like, again, this this man was going through a mental health crisis. You know, if I'm the listener, I'm thinking like, OK, what does this have to do with what happened to John in early 2000s? I don't know. But Delia, I know you well enough to know that it must happen.

Yeah. So, you know, again, like I said, I want to break it down so people really understand. So in 2020, according to Charlotte County Sheriff's Office documentation, James was still a detective for DeSoto County Sheriff's Office, like at the time that this self-harm incident is happening. So the narrative goes, James had taken a day off work early or he had left work early to go home. He then started drinking and he called the National Suicide Prevention Hotline.

And according to the responding officer's narrative of events, James stated he had several weapons, which included his DeSoto County-issued shotgun, service pistol, and an AR-15 rifle. He'd made several threats that he was going to take his own life with one of those firearms, and he was going to do it in his backyard. So what's like, I guess, what's the root of this? Like, did he talk to anyone about what was causing this, what was making him have these thoughts? Yeah.

Right. So according to the police reports, he said he was having a lot of problems mentally and financially and that during his 35 years of law enforcement service, he'd witnessed too many bad things. He'd investigated too many murders of young people and members of his family had said that he'd been having like hallucinations and, you know, just really struggling. So he said,

His adult son was at home while this was all going down, and he confirmed to the police that James was having what his son referred to as a mental breakdown. And the son said that several times his dad had been in an unpredictable and confused state for, like,

a lot, you know, several times. And, you know, authorities got the son out of the house, but James kept himself barricaded inside and he refused to cooperate, even though like some of his colleagues showed up and like everyone was trying to calm him down. Eventually, the deputies with Charlotte County, they got him to come out. They had to struggle with them. They put him in handcuffs, like literally for his own protection.

But while assessing him, James, like, faked having a heart attack. And, like, he verbally abused the deputies that were trying to help him. And when they got a paramedic to evaluate him, the deputies said that, like, James, like, started laughing at them and, like, said, like, you know, he was amused and, like, literally said that, like, he was happy, like, Charlotte County taxpayers were going to have to, like, pay for his medical bills. Like, just, like, really over the top.

Again, like I know this has to relate back to John's case, but like what I keep thinking is this doesn't happen overnight. Like someone doesn't just snap or have this breakdown one day without some kind of sign before. So like I have two questions. I mean, I kind of want to go to like how long has he been experiencing this? Because when you say hallucinations, that's like pretty severe. And two is like what truly came of this? Like was he, did he end up leaving the force and getting the help he needed? Yeah.

Yeah. So after this whole ordeal, Charlotte County, like they didn't arrest James. Instead, they like served him with like a risk protection order, which just basically is like a document that says that he's a significant threat to himself and possibly others. They took all of his firearms. And again, like that's done for his own protection. But

to kind of bring it all together. The reason I even bring any of this up is because I think it's important for listeners to know, especially when you consider that, you know, it's James' word and his seven-page report is,

that he provided to the medical examiner in 2017 that substantially changed the status of this case. And to go back to like, how long was this happening? His adult son said like, this had been like an ongoing thing. So I think it's a kind of like a growing compounding thing that like led to this like break in 2020. So I do have to like raise the question of where was he mentally while the case, John Wells' case was like in his hands in 2017? Yeah.

Right. And again, if you go back to the last episode where you're talking about Dr. Vega, you

And, you know, he had had this conversation with Helen afterwards. You had a brief conversation with him after the fire alarm went off. And he even said, like, some of this stuff didn't make sense to me, but I was based on what I was told by the investigator. So it's the investigator's word that changes the report. And now we're saying the investigator, three years after the report is changed, has this severe mental episode of,

And again, I do not think that happens overnight. So were you able to find anyone going back to, you know, finding other people? Were you able to find anyone that that said in 2017 that he was starting to show signs of this or would he not have been doing his best work? I mean, what does this mean for John's case? Right. So I really I wanted that piece, right? Like I would never have brought this up if I wasn't able to kind of like really look into it more. So something that

that's really interesting is I had a conversation earlier this month with a former colleague of James's and this guy worked closely with James at DeSoto County Sheriff's Office like during his career there and when he had John Wells' case.

And this colleague told me that around the time James was working on John's case, James was displaying like bizarre behaviors and he was showing like clear indications that he was having like memory loss issues and struggling. Now, this source, they told me that despite like upper management at DCSO knowing about this situation with James, that they kept James in the detective bureau anyway.

This colleague wanted to remain anonymous, as did a lot of people kind of like off the record in this story. But, you know, he told me that it was well known in the sheriff's office that James was struggling towards the end of his time, like as a detective. So with that being said, I think it's more important than ever that an outside law enforcement agency review and evaluate what James did with John's case, like what

I think the entire case should be reinvestigated like top to bottom. But even if that doesn't happen, I think the Florida Attorney General's Office and like the state attorney's office, you know, they should absolutely investigate if the information that James like provided to Dr. Vega, the medical examiner in 2017, was coherently formed.

Again, accuracy, how it was put together. And I made sure to ask, like, State Attorney Ed Brodsky about this and if he brought it up, these concerns about James Curdy's work to Sheriff Potter when he said they had their recent meeting. And here's what he told me. I'm comfortable telling you that, yes, that's certainly a point of our discussion. It's a readdressing issue as well. So, in the end, like, Ashley, like, what are your thoughts?

I mean, to me, it's like every everything on paper that says this case is closed to me has just kind of been upended. Right. The undetermined ruling upended if Kurdi wasn't giving correct information. I mean, again, even if I don't even think that should have happened anyways. But again, that's the information you got that did it. You saw things that didn't make sense to you. I think that needs to be changed.

back to a homicide. And again, this person who is responsible for kind of reinvestigating and looking at it, if they were not in a place to be making these sound, logical decisions, doing their best work for a family who deserves their best work. Helen deserves the best work for her son who did not make it to his 18th birthday.

That needs to be completely relooked at from start to finish. And honestly, like, I think they need to put everything he did aside. They have to they can't look to anything he did and point to that as their basis for clearing someone talking to someone like they've got to start all the way back at the beginning, which is what this case needs.

Yeah. And I think, again, just to go back to that piece of like, is what James Curdy did the best? I would say no. Is what Beville Gardner and Associates did the best? No. But then I also go back to this other question of, is it accurate? And I cannot and I will not ever be able to let go of the moment where I'm interviewing Patrick Skinner.

And I read him the report from James Curdy that says, I interviewed Patrick Skinner in May of 2016. I re-interviewed Pat Strader and their stories didn't change. And Patrick's like, yeah, he's like, I don't even remember that. Like, Patrick's really nice and he's such a good person that he was like, oh, like, I

I actually don't even know. He's like, I don't want to call him a liar, but I don't recognize his name. I don't remember that conversation. Here's all the stuff I do remember. And there's no reason for Patrick to like lie about talking to James Curdy. So like I will never be able to get over like, is that even accurate? Like, were we even speaking to people and doing our due diligence as a law enforcement agency when James like wrapped up the case? And I would say, no, he did not.

I just don't know. Like, there's this is like the biggest issue I think I have with like the justice system is like, again, who's who's holding these people accountable? Us, right? Like the people who are like writing the stories about it, bringing bringing attention to this, because the frustration I'm going to feel like the state's attorney hears, hears this. We see it clear as day.

If any other job, like again, if we did a podcast and Delia, you were suffering a mental health crisis. And if all of the stuff that you put out there was not accurate, you were making up interviews that never actually happened. We would be held accountable. There's a whole system in place that would upend this. But it's there's just so much power that the sheriff's office has that if I don't know what I'm going to do, if at the end of the day, they're like, yeah, we see all of this, but we're good.

It is what it is. Yeah, like if we don't check our work, we get sued. If law enforcement doesn't check their work, nobody notices unless you are actively trying to check their work.

Even if you try and sue them, like that hardly ever works out for families because the law is on their side. Yeah. And to be clear here, like I don't want anybody suing DeSoto County Sheriff's Office. No, no, no, no, no. We want them to take what the state attorney advised them and said, will you take another look? Sheriff Potter, it's in your hands. Will you take this forward? Like that's what we want.

Like, we don't want anybody, you know, going... No, no, no. No one's suing anyone today. But you're right. There is a point there where, like, that doesn't always work out. So...

I think for me, you know, unless we get a law enforcement agency to step up and reevaluate John's case or prove that things weren't done with the utmost pursuit of justice in mind, like there will never be justice for John. And Helen, his mom, said that everything like you all of the listeners are doing, like it means so much to her. And she's really looking forward to what could come next.

I'm very hopeful. I'm ecstatic and I'm so appreciative, not only to you, but everybody who comments and clicks and shares because that just keeps it going. I have hope now and maybe Vega will wise up and see that

You know, there are gun experts and there are medical experts. And while they help each other, in my mind, and I think in everybody's common sense mind, the medical science part outweighs any agency theories or just to get it off the books. It all boils back down to the local authorities. And I would love for FDLE to step right back in like they were.

instead of letting DeSoto County take care of it. I think they've got more resources and it's a new day, it's a new decade. Two new decades and I think this needs to be tested again before something happens to the samples.

Thank you all for listening to this bonus episode. I hope that Ashley and I answered some of your questions. I have a feeling there's going to be a lot more coming in this case. So stay tuned for any updates. And in the meantime, I'm already working on CounterClock Season 5. Ashley, you know I'm so deep into this.

I was going to say, like, so you're planning on taking a break after season three. Are you going to take a break after season four? But I know you are. You are deep into season five. You're already thinking about season six. It's never going to end. Counterculture is going to go on forever and ever. It will be forever. But, you know, for the listeners, you know, trust me, season five story is not something that you are going to want to miss.

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