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Hey CounterClock listeners, Delia D'Ambra here, and this is a special bonus episode that I wanted to bring you regarding Season 4's case, the death of John Wells. If you follow CounterClock on social media, you know that not long after episodes for Season 4 released, John's story got a lot of attention. And I'm so thankful you've all been so interested and engaged, I know it means the world to his mom, Helen.
In the bonus Q&A episode, I told you that the state attorney over DeSoto County, Ed Brodsky, is really pushing to see if the sheriff's office there will reopen it. And right now, it's still TBD if Sheriff James Potter will. But while that's been going on, I heard from someone I've wanted to interview for a long time. James Curdy.
James is the detective who took up John's case in 2016 and convinced the 12th District Medical Examiner, Dr. Russell Vega, to change John's manner of death from a homicide to undetermined. In mid-July of this year, using one of his family members' social media profiles, James messaged me his number and we got on the phone the same day.
When we talked, James hadn't listened to season four yet. I told him he really should, but he was confident. He knew the case inside and out.
Despite not listening to my reporting ahead of time, he still wanted to talk with me on the record anyway, and he started our chat with a question of his own. Who was that?
I think he was referring to Kent Harshbarger, a coroner and forensic pathologist who I used as an independent consultant for the show. From the start, James made it clear he felt his own law enforcement experience and intuition is what made him the best person to re-examine John's case.
To the layperson, it looks like a simple whatever case. But when you have a lot of experience, a lot of training, college, all kinds of courses, you pick up on this stuff real quick. And you can identify things that are not right. In his words, James explained to me that his expertise in cold case investigations was better than the other investigators who'd previously worked the case. I've done tons of cold cases before.
Why do you think that nobody except you, up until 2016, was investigating this as anything other than a homicide? That's right.
When you were working in the detective bureau at DCSO, was this case something you voluntarily took on or was this case assigned to you? No, I volunteered. When I got hired there, they knew about my experience, my training, and they put me in investigations pretty quick. And I ended up just taking on the cold cases, working on a bunch of them.
He also thinks his findings are more reliable than the two original medical examiners who ruled John's death a homicide. Let me tell you this, if you didn't know it, a medical examiner, before they make their ruling, most of their information is provided by law enforcement, and then they make their ruling after the autopsy.
Are you indicating that the two medical examiners early on in this case were swayed by law enforcement's theory? Because if that's the case, then law enforcement's theory at the start of this whole thing would have been that John was a drowning victim. The medical examiner is the one that found the bullet in his head and informed police that they were dealing with potentially a murder. So it almost seems as if it was the other way around in this case.
I was really curious to know, if James felt like his expertise was better than everyone else's, why did he even bother to bring in the third-party forensics firm, Bevel Gardner & Associates? We hired three experts to review my notes, and they agreed with me as well. Why did he consult these three experts if, according to James, his personal work on the case was the best it could get?
Why did you bring in Beville Gardner and Associates? Was that a firm you had used previously? Had you used them at all in any other cases for DeSoto County Sheriff's Office? That was the first time I used them, but they were highly recommended by the FBI because they're all retired FBI forensics. So that's why we used them. Did you know if Beville Gardner and Associates did like field testing or any sort of experiments? No.
No, all they were doing was reviewing my findings and seeing if they agreed with me or not. Did Bevel Gardner and Associates ever provide you a reason as to why they didn't do any physical or forensic testing with firearms to back up their findings that they gave to you? I didn't ask them to do that. I asked them to review the case and then review my notes. Would you not have rather had them look at it independently aside from what you found so that they could determine for themselves? No.
I did. I'm actually looking at it right now. And I was going through it, and I had a couple of questions for you about that. Minutes into our call, we were off to the races. He was on his end, ready to answer questions, and I was on my end, going line by line through his seven-page report that explains what he believes happened to John. You're sitting on an ATV.
You have a holster with a .22 on the right side of your body that's not secured, okay? You hit the reverse button, right? The gun falls out because he always kept it cocked back, so it'll go off simple right now. And as you're backing up, the gun falls out, you look down, look at your gun, and you get shot in the eye. I mean, you've got to understand the evidence.
And you believe that John was physically able to then walk 40 feet to the ditch and fall in. You're saying that's physically possible. 40 feet? Yes. All of the reports that you would have reviewed said anywhere from 30 to 50 feet he would have walked. Is that not? Okay. Not something you remember? Actually, I don't. I don't remember. It wasn't a very big distance, let's put it that way.
Yes.
In 2017, James typed up his findings, albeit more succinctly than how he just explained it to me, then gave his report to 12th District Medical Examiner Dr. Russell Vega. And we all know what happened next. Vega changed John's manner of death from a homicide to undetermined.
Since James was willing to go into the nitty gritty with me about his report, I made sure to pin down a few things with him, specifically a handful of discrepancies I'd read on the first few pages. In your report, one of the things that you had stated was that the victim's father was deceased, and I don't know if that was just a clerical error, but Mack Wells is definitely alive, so I'm not sure if you were referring to...
I'm not sure who you were referring to in your report. Who told you Mack Wells is alive? Mack Wells is alive. I actually spoke with him. So... Is he sure? Yeah, Mack Wells is alive. Melvin Strader is dead. And that was the victim's grandfather. He died one month roughly before John. Is that who you might be referring to? Might be, yeah. Is he a junior? Yeah.
Okay, yep, I remember that.
Yep. Maybe that's what you were thinking of. Also, too, in your report, you had stated that there was a recall on John's gun by Ruger. I actually attached that to my case package, the recall.
Right, but it's actually confirmed with Ruger that John's gun did not have a recall. It was a new model single six. The recall paperwork from Ruger for that type of revolver was for a model revolver, not the same manufacturing year. So did you actually double check with Ruger? Yeah, I verified that with Ruger.
Also, he used to do the quick shoot thing. They also told me if you do that too many times, it wears out the gun and it causes even more issues where it can go off accidentally. Sorry, what do you mean by quick shoot? Can you explain that for me? The cowboy days where they sit there and slam on the hammer and they keep shooting and shooting and shooting. Okay, and who was it that told you John handled his gun that way? I believe it was Skip, as a matter of fact.
Except, that's not what James wrote in his report. On page 4 of his own findings, James wrote that it was Mack Wells who told original investigators that John carried his gun irresponsibly. You all know after listening to season 4 that Mack denies saying that, and more than one person has confirmed to me that John never handled his gun haphazardly. But how John handled his gun wasn't the big thing I wanted to address with James. No.
I wanted to get to a much more important issue. I would have more concrete good feelings about Bevel, Gardner & Associates if they had done physical testing with a firearm and said, hey, yeah, this gun can, we have results that say it can go off accidentally. But there's no firearms experiments that back up the sequence of events that is in your report. And that's why I'm just trying to figure out
how this report can be 100% accurate if there is no evidence to support the firearm going off accidentally. All right. What you have is a bunch of people that have no clue, probably never even seen a dead body. Well, I have a forensic pathologist. He's a coroner. He sees deceased individuals every day. Yeah. So did I for many years.
And for him just to look at a report and make that decision doesn't add up. Well, he actually looked at the entire autopsy photograph file from the medical examiner's office in Florida. I mean, he had every bit of information that you would have had looking at this case, you know, 14, 15 years later. So I don't think it's a matter of what the professionals are looking at. I think it's a matter of what can we back up with now?
concrete evidence. And I understand that you're saying the blood spatter would indicate to you that John walked to the water, but it's the firearm evidence that I feel is critical to changing John's manner of death.
But we don't have any firearms testing by your investigation in 2016 that allows Dr. Vega to make the ruling he did. And in fact, he's since called the family of John Wells and said, look, I'm not a firearms expert. I'm a pathologist. And I was trusting the firearms evidence given to me by James Curdy. And I just would ask you, can you prove to me that you...
Your conclusions are backed by sound evidence testing that you conducted in 2016 and 2017. Yes. And what were those tests that you conducted? It was based, again, based on the scene and what wasn't done back then.
So are you, I guess just to clarify, are you indicating that you reviewed the case file, you reviewed the interview transcripts and audio, and you had Bevel, Gardner, and Associates review your notes that then supported your conclusion, but you did no physical firearms testing to prove John Wells' gun could go off accidentally?
Okay, and if I were to tell you that the recall that you claim and indicate in your report was on John's gun is in fact a recall for a completely different model year gun, what would you say to that? Okay.
You don't agree that you might be wrong or you don't agree that a recall for John's gun never existed? No, a recall for John's gun did exist. Would you be willing to submit that perhaps the recall that you found was for a different gun? I don't agree. Okay, so you're double down on that? Sure. It was a .22 that went through the corner of his eye.
Well, it actually wasn't a .22. It was a .17 caliber ammunition shot out of a .22. Yeah, pretty much the same, though. Just a little more kick to it. Well, I mean, you can say pretty much the same, but, I mean, there was .17 caliber ammunition loaded in another firearm of the same caliber on that property. Were you aware of a second .22 revolver on that property? No, for the first time hearing about that.
In your investigation in 2016 and 2017, did you ever investigate the presence of a possible identical revolver that was on the property that day? No. That could have been something that was never told or was never put in the notes. In the case file from back in 2003, both for DeSoto County as well as FDLE, it stated that a second .22 six-shot revolver
revolver from Ruger was on the property the day that John died and would have been loaded with 17 caliber ammunition the same as John's gun was loaded. So it is in the reports in the case file that you would have reviewed. Do you think it's possible you just missed that? Yeah, I probably just don't remember it to be honest with you.
So I think it's safe to say James never explored investigating Mel Sr.'s identical revolver, which is really a shame. I moved on from that, though, because there was another pressing matter to address. You stated that in 2016, you re-interviewed Patrick Skinner. When I spoke with Patrick Skinner, he did not recollect ever being interviewed by you. He was.
Okay, so you interviewed him in 2016. What do you remember about your interview with him? Where was it? Was it over the phone? No, it was in person at my office. So what did you and Patrick talk about in 2016? I re-interviewed everybody pretty much, if you look at the case. Tried to get his location, where he was at, what he knew, what he heard, if he heard of anything, da-da-da, stuff like that.
I should tell you that when I first brought Patrick Skinner's name up regarding whether or not James interviewed him in 2016, James at first told me he couldn't locate Patrick at that time because Patrick was, quote, strung out on meth, end quote. I realized that couldn't possibly be true. And then James got confused about who Patrick was in the case. Then he realized he might have confused Patrick for Kevin Callahan.
Honestly, it was all very confusing to me. But once I defined for James specifically who Patrick was, he admitted he likely had some people in this story confused with one another. But in the grand scheme of things, when I pressed him about how adamant he was that he'd interviewed Patrick in 2016, James never really answered my question. So I tried to be a bit firmer.
Again, in your report that you gave to the medical examiner in 2017, you stated in that report that you re-interviewed Patricia Strader and Patrick Skinner. And upon completion of their interviews, their testimony was consistent with their original accounts. Right. What do you remember about interviewing Patrick Skinner in 2016? Because he does not ever remember talking with you.
In your paperwork, you stated that on May 24th of 2016, you re-interviewed Patricia Strader and Patrick Skinner. And I'm trying to understand why doesn't Patrick Skinner remember talking to you in May of 2016 if in fact you spoke with him?
I actually remember going to his house and talking to him and his dad. So I can't answer that. I can't tell you. Okay. What about your interview with Patricia Strader? What do you remember about that interview in 2016? Correct. The second interview was very short. It was pretty much the same as the first interview. But I just got in her words and her recording of what happened with the gun and why she did what she did.
Right. So you you listen back to old interview tapes with her and police. Correct. OK. But did you physically go to her house and re-interview her in person? Yeah, I went there a couple of three times. I actually went out there and surveyed the property again, took some measurements again, pictures, talked to her. And then I talked to her again when we closed the case out. What did she say? Exactly what's in the report.
So, it would seem that during his visits with Pat, James didn't obtain anything new. Maybe that's not his fault. Pat isn't a real chatty person, so I understand if she was a dead end for James. As our phone call went on, though, I brought up Martin Hollingsworth and the fact that Martin told me he'd heard a gunshot near Joshua Creek on the afternoon John died.
James admitted he didn't know anything about Martin. Not surprising, since Martin told me no one from law enforcement had ever talked to him. But what was interesting to me is that during the several trips James said he took out to Southeast Hansel Avenue, he didn't re-canvass the neighborhood. When you reinvestigated the case, you said you went out to the Strader property and did measurements and things like that. Did it ever cross your mind to canvass neighbors again? No.
Did you do anything in your investigation that wasn't in the notes from the previous investigation? Right. So why wouldn't recanvassing neighbors have been one of those things? But you would agree, though, his testimony would have certainly been interesting for investigators in 2003. Would it have been of any use to you in 2016? Yeah.
Yeah, it would help with the timeline, sure. You've been out there to the woods in that area, and you know the trash pile roughly how far away that is from the Strader home. It's across the street, behind the sawmill, in the woods about half a mile, three-quarters of a mile. Right. Mr. Hollingsworth's house is even further away than that. And if he indicated he heard a shot, what would that mean?
What would that tell you as an investigator with your experience? Well, honestly, shots are going off all day out in that area, people hunting and everything else. But if obviously if I knew there was a murder, I would definitely want to speak to him.
Right. But I guess what I'm asking is if Martin Hollingsworth lives over a mile from the trash dump site, do you think it's possible he was able to hear the gunshot that killed John living that far away with a 17 caliber bullet coming out of a 22 gauge firearm? I mean, you have experience in this, so that's why I'm asking you. The answer would be yes, definitely. Within a mile, yes, you would hear. What about over a mile?
Right, but we know the gun, right? We know the gun. It's a .22 revolver, and it's loaded with .17 caliber ammo. So in your experience, would you say that someone over a mile away through the woods with trees could hear a gunshot that far away? Yeah, I'd still have to say yes.
I didn't go into my call with James trying to convince him to change his mind. He didn't strike me as the type of person who's going to admit when something they've already made up their mind about might be wrong. I don't think he wants to see that maybe there might be more to the story. And just maybe he isn't the only expert worth listening to.
You 100% stand by your conclusions in your report, and you do not believe that John Wells is a murder victim. You believe he is a victim of some sort of firearm accident that was covered up by family members. That is my belief. I know this episode wasn't full length, but I felt like it was important to share the conversation I had with James with you all.
He was an integral person to this case, and if DeSoto County Sheriff's Office reopens the case, they'll have to interview James. Full disclosure, I did ask James about his mental crisis in 2020 that ended his career with DCSO, but he declined to discuss details about that on the record. Looking ahead, I'll keep an eye on things with John's case and continue to push to have it reopened as a murder investigation.
I know it's hard to believe sometimes, after four seasons of this show, but I do keep a close watch on all of the cases I've investigated for CounterClock. Denise Johnson, Stacey Stanton, the Pellys, all of them. Whenever there's something worth sharing that's substantial and confirmed, I'll bring it to you in one way or the other, whether that's here on the show feed or on social media.
Moving forward, I'm working with the team at AudioChuck to continue to bring you full seasons of CounterClock. Season 5 is well on its way, but I'll also be working on mini-seasons while you wait for my larger investigative cases to come together. It's an ambitious endeavor, but one I'm up for. So stay tuned, because CounterClock isn't going away anytime soon.
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