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And welcome back to Sisters Who Kill. All right, y'all. This week, we are going back in time. This story takes place in 1787, about 235 years ago. There's not much about this case. I mean, it was only published in the Pennsylvania trial documents. Just so y'all get a very glimpse of what's happening before we get the story started. So it's 1787 in 1787.
1700, a law was passed that made it possible for slaves to be tried in court. And you know, it's 1787. So if you're familiar with the schoolhouse rock, this happens right before the constitutional convention in Philly. ♪
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free money, free money is out there. Just go get it by starting your podcast today. Our players this week are an unnamed baby girl. We'll just call her baby girl. This is Alice's daughter and the victim. We have John Bartholomew, Alice's slave master, Mary Bartholomew, her slave master's wife, John Schaefer, her rapist, and Alice Clifton, our
Alice Clifton was born sometime in 1771 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Of course, she was born a slave, so we don't have an exact birthday, but we do know that she was mulatto, so it was more than likely that she was a product of rape. She was born on the Clifton and Mill Plantation. Her family life and history when she was growing up is...
But what we do know is that she was at their plantation until she was 13. And then at that age, the folks at the Clifton Inn Mill gave Alice to Mr. Milne's daughter and her husband, Mary and John Bartholomew, as a wedding gift. John Bartholomew owned shops in Philadelphia and Mary probably, I mean, she was a housewife. She just stayed at home ordering slaves around all day. While doing some research for this case, we found a clipping in the newspaper of Bartholomew
the Bartholomew family having a like wanted slash reward sign for one of their slaves that ran away. And in the clipping, they were offering $16 if their slave, his name was Daniel Andrews, was returned back to them alive. I did the math. Google did the math. And 16 shillings at the time was,
is about $607.53 today. So from the age 13 through 16, Alice lived with the Bartholomews. She worked at their house. She was enslaved, so she did whatever they told her to do. Most of the time, she was doing laundry, cooking, cleaning. When she was 16, the Bartholomews moved to Church Alley, which is another area in Philadelphia. When they got there, Alice was more one of the trusted slaves. So they were like, you know,
out and run errands. You can leave off and come back and go and leave as you please. You know, here's your pass. Of course, they had to go around with the pass at the time. And I read, I was doing some research that black women, black slaves, they were less likely to be stopped and asked for if they actually had their pass because they
you know, black men, that's a hot commodity. That's making sure that things are getting done around the house. You don't want to, you want to make sure that they're there. And if they're not supposed to be there, then you get to return them and get a 16, $600 reward. But black women less likely to be stopped and questioned because they're
They are overlooked in society. So one of her first trips out of the house alone, she was approached, beaten, and then raped by a man named John Schaefer. In the trial documents, they said that this happened around September. So this is September of 1775. This had been happening again and again by him every time she left the house. Now, the court documents say that she was debauched.
Debauch is defined by Google as an adjective indulging in or characterized by sensual pleasure to a degree perceived to be morally harmful. Dissolute. John Schaeffer was a big, fat, nasty, married old white man, right? And he also lived in Church Alley. He was married to a very wealthy French woman, and he would occasionally visit the stores owned by the Barstow Mules. After
After Fat Shaffer's first time raping Alice, he continued to do so whenever she would be sent out of the store to go run errands. Alice was a 16-year-old slave and she couldn't really tell anybody what's going on because who really cared, right? She was just somebody's property. So in September of 1786, after being raped on multiple occasions, Alice realized that one day she was pregnant and her stomach began to grow. And she had responsibilities around the house and she wasn't able to tell anyone that she was pregnant.
But that didn't mean people weren't starting to suspect so. But she continued to deny it because she was afraid of the consequences. Mary Bartholomew, Alice's master's wife and Alice's mistress, they say, continued to question Alice about the bulk she was carrying. But Alice would lie and say, no, no, I'm not pregnant. John the Master said,
continued to question her as well and she's just like nope nope not me can't be no I'm not pregnant she just continues on doing her duties cleaning the house going to the market we're just living a regular life nothing's happening okay everything is fine now on one of her trips to the market fat shaffer was waiting for her again this time Alice tells him okay listen I'm pregnant and he's like yeah that's not gonna work for me so he's like I need you to kill this baby and she's like I
What do you mean? Yeah, like, what do you mean kill this baby? And he was like, listen, can't nobody find out I'm having a baby with you. You know what I'm saying? Don't nobody want this illegitimate child walking around. And as light as she is, you know, that baby about to turn out possibly Caucasian, you know?
You just never know where they fall. So he was like, yeah, can't have that. Can't have that. Can't have that. So you don't have to kill that baby. But he says, but I can make it worth your while. You kill that baby and I'll buy your freedom from the Bartholomews. I'll make you as happy as I make my wife. You know, because we got plenty of money. We roll in the door. I can make it worth your while. Don't miss this opportunity. He was like, I'm a well-traveled man. I've done all these things before. It's all right. You're going to be safe. And
Isn't it because he married a rich woman? Because he's actually not a rich man. Yeah, I think his wife is rich, but what's mine is yours and what's yours is ours. So she was like, I don't know. You know, not supposed to kill. What about my soul? He was like, let me tell you something, sweetie. Ain't no heaven and ain't no hell. Ain't no God or no devil neither. He was like, and you can trust me because I'm smart. Okay. Okay.
I've traveled through Europe. Okay? Multiple countries. Been around the world and aye, aye, aye. Right. So, just take my word on it. You ain't got nothing to worry about. Okay? Now, Schaefer told her that he knew that this was going to work and he knew that his words were going to work and that his suave wife's money was going to work. He also convinced this milk girl to do the same thing. He got in her
pregnant. He was like, nah. And he was like, you're going to have to get rid of that. And she did. After Schaefer told Alice what she should do with the baby, she was like, uh,
uh, okay. And she went home. For the next couple of months, Alice's belly grew and she had to really figure out what she was going to do. Like, this is my freedom or my baby. And then if my baby is born into slavery, right now at this weird transition that we are in history, like abolitionists are really coming up. I mean, like at this time, this is like a couple of years before, um,
What's the name of that book? The Interesting Narrative in the Life of Ola Uda Equiano. Do you know that book? You might not know. I don't know. I had to read that book in college. Like, this is where we are in history right now. So she's like, what do I do? What is the best option for me? How much is my freedom worth? One day, John Bartholomew took Alice down to the cellar to get some logs for the fire inside of the house. One day,
When they were on their way down to the narrow steps, Alice crashed and fell and one of the logs like fell on top of her and one really hit her in the side. She laid there in agony for a little while and she was like, oh my, I mean, you know, she took a big tumble. She cried, of course. And a few days later, her master noted that she was really bruised in the hip area and he asked like, why?
where did this big bruise come from? She's like, it came from the fall. What do you mean? On April 5th, 1787, a few days later, Alice falls again. And this time when she falls, she goes into labor. Now remember, nobody knows that she's pregnant. They suspect
But they don't know. She continued her morning duties. She set the fire in the house, got the tea, did whatever she had to do. She was doing her best to not hint to anybody that she was pregnant. Not only pregnant, but that she was going in labor. And at this time, the baby, it's April. The baby is only seven months. So it's already April.
And now she's about to deliver. She goes into a room upstairs and she lays down for a little while. Now, Mary Bartholomew, she was just like something is just going on with Alice. And I keep I keep suspecting it. She keeps saying that she's not. And I think that something is going on. So she decides that she's going to keep checking on Alice every five seconds. Mary Bartholomew goes up there and she's like, are you OK? And she's like, I just feel poorly. I just feel sick. I just need to lay down. I did the fire, you know, just let me lay here for a little while. She's like, OK.
And but of course, she doesn't believe her. So she goes back and she's like, Alice, what's going on? You look like something is going on with you. She's like, I'm fine. I just I need to lay down. I just don't feel good. Then Alice is like, well, can I get some old clothes? So Mary goes and gets the clothes, gives them to Alice. Mary leaves the room. Now that Alice was in the room alone, she was able to push the baby out and cut the umbilical cord. Now, listen, this is the sticker.
Nobody knows if the baby was born alive or not. Soon after the baby was born, Alice grabs a razor from the window and slices baby girl's neck from ear to ear. After the cut, she wrapped the baby into an old like petticoat and she put it in a chest and
That was in another room of the house. And she put the chest in a room that was upstairs across the hall from where she was actually laying. And then she went to her room and she laid in bed. A few minutes later, Mary comes upstairs to Alice from downstairs to check on her again. This time she's like, I know you don't had a baby. And she's like telling her sister-in-law, come upstairs and help me look for this baby because I know she just had one.
So Mary and her sister-in-law are frantically searching the house, looking here, there and everywhere for any evidence of Alice having had a baby. They look all over upstairs until they come upon a chest. Mary's sister-in-law opens the chest and calls Mary over to it. Mary looks down and she sees a ball of linen and says, Alice, what is this? And Alice is like, Mary puts her hand on it and she says that it was warm to the touch.
Alice grabbed the roll of linen and placed it on the bed beside her. She unwrapped it and there was a baby and they looked at it, but the baby did not cry. Afterwards, Mary was so indisposed that she left the room.
That's like going to somebody's phone and being upset that you found out they were cheating. Like you went looking for this. I mean, she might've went looking for a baby. Did she go looking for a dead baby? I don't know what part through her, you know? Streaming October 6th on Paramount Plus. First place I learned about death was the Pet Sematary. Dead things buried in that land would come back. There's something else. Something's wrong with Timmy. He needs time to adjust.
That's not Timmy. Something's talking to him.
Sometimes dead is better. Pet Cemetery. Bloodlines. Rated R. Streaming only on Paramount+. A few minutes later, the authorities came and began their inquest or investigation. They started the same day and then Samuel Bullfinch, the police captain, and John Leelock, the coroner, came to the house to investigate. When they get there, they ask Alice what happened. She told the coroner that she slit the baby's throat to keep it from crying.
But after she slit the throat, she was like, oh, this baby's dead. It was born, stillborn. The captain, Bullfinch, walked into the room and he sees Alice sitting in a corner with baby girl in her arms. He says, what's happened here? And she's like, I had to cut the baby's throat because if the baby cried, then the family would know that I was pregnant and then I would get in trouble. And Captain Bullfinch continues to ask Alice questions like,
What do you mean, why would I get in trouble? Alice is not selling him on a good reason to kill this baby. And I mean, good reasons to kill is a hard sell, but he's not taking her answer for what it is, you know? So he just keeps pressing her, keeps pressing her. After a while, Alice tells Captain Bullfinch that Fat Schaefer told her to kill that baby and he would buy her freedom. She tells the captain that Fat Schaefer told her she needed to cut the throat
or make it grow away. Captain Bull French takes Alice's statement and he leaves. The coroner takes the baby to look at even further and he leaves too. Now it's 1987 and a judicial system is nothing like it is today. The juries were very much your peers because they were your neighbors to people around you.
people around during the crime. So a few days after, the jury was taken to the house to talk to Alex and look at the crime scene. Now, after the jurors' inquest, Alex was arrested on April 17th of 1787, and her trial began the next day.
The trial only lasted one day, and it started off immediately with witnesses. First the prosecution, then the defense.
The attorney general for the prosecution first had the coroner, John Leelock, testify about what he saw when he got there, what was going on during the first day of the crime. He testified that Alice confessed to slicing the baby's throat to keep it from crying. He testified also that he stood in the corner of the room during the inquest because it was crowded, basically meaning everybody was in here tampering with evidence, tampering with the crime scene. Next, they questioned Mrs. Mary Bartholomew, Alice's mistress. She
She testified that she was Alice's mistress and confirmed that she had suspected that Alice was pregnant because of her bulk. They asked her, did you charge her with it? Meaning like,
Did you ask her if she was pregnant? And she said, yes, I did charge her with it. And multiple times she had denied it, said that she was not pregnant at all. She also testified about the two falls that Alice had endured. And she testified about how her sister-in-law found baby girl and Alice unwrapped it after she asked what happened. She testified that Alice told her that she had killed the baby by laying on it. Next.
was the police captain, Samuel Bullfinch. He testified everything that we already told you, but he did say that Alice was not really acting maternal, which is going to be a running theme in this episode.
as well as a running theme in black women in the judicial system up until this day. Also, every time that the witness challenges Alice's lack of maternal instincts, the defense is like, again, hey, hey, hey, she's a kid. She's a kid. She's like 17 years old. She's a child. Now, next to go up is John Bartholomew. This is Alice's master. He confirmed everything that his lovely wife,
said so that the jury would believe her you know because she was a woman and even though she was white this is before feminism because original feminism is only for white women so he had to confirm everything that his wife said and then it was dr folky's turn now i enjoyed dr folky some may say that he was creepy but i think that he was just straight to the point
He seems like a guy who just really likes science, you know? Yeah, he seemed like he was in a lab coat, hunched over, super skinny, never gotten laid. He examined baby girl's body after it had been recovered, and he testified that he believes that the child had been born dead.
He said that the baby died after Alice gave birth to the baby and while she laid on her back and she was like smothering it from the way that she was laying while giving birth. He also noted that he asked Alice straight up about her maternal instincts. She was just like, I mean, the baby was born dead. The court asked him.
Did she seem to be affected by the loss of her child? And he said this. He said, She seemed to me to have lost herself much. She stroked it, looked at it, but I thought not with that maternal tenderness, which she should have discovered on such an occasion. She shed no tears for her loss, not that I esteem the shedding tears an essential to constitute tenderness. She began to appear sorry when I was about to take the infant from her. Then the court was like...
the baby is here correct and he said yes the baby is here i have the baby and they were like where is the baby he said i have preserved it in a jar would you like me to go get it for you i could show each and every one of you if you want to look after the prosecution finished with their witness it was the defense's turn to call their witness
The only witness that the defense called up was Dr. Jones. He testified about the autopsy of the infant and what could have happened. He testified that Alice told him the baby was born dead. And he affirmed this after looking at the child because he was like, the baby just wasn't fully grown. I mean, the limbs were small.
There was a little bit of hair. There were nails starting to be formed, but like this was a seven month old. This was not a baby that was going to full term. The likeliness of her being able to keep this baby alive after those full tumbles is slim to none. Also, they were talking about the lack of blood. If the baby was born alive, there would be more blood. There was a reasonable amount of blood.
But they were like, of course, that would have come from mom because mom had the baby. Another thing that I feel like should have worked in the defense's case is when Mary Bartholomew was on the stand, they asked her multiple times, did you hear a baby crying? And she was like, no, but she was close enough and she was being sneaky enough. She was paying attention enough that she would have probably I imagine that that one white woman had her ear to that door waiting to hear a baby cry.
She was waiting to catch her in the act, but she testified that she did not hear a baby cry.
Now, Alice was not allowed to get on the stand and testify for herself because she's black in 1787. Now it's time for closing arguments. The attorney general for the prosecution tells the jury that there are two kinds of evidence that they have to debate on. Positive proof and circumstantial proof. Now, positive proof is when the witness can swear that they saw the crime being committed. And circumstantial proof is things that they've heard. But that can be broken down into three subsects.
A, violent presumption, meaning beyond a reasonable doubt they've committed this crime. B, probable presumption, which means it's a little doubt, but I'm pretty sure they did it. Or C, slight presumption, which means inconclusive. It could go either way. Boy, aren't we grateful that
It's always reasonable doubt these days, or supposed to be at least. And explaining this to prosecute's mission is to argue that there is no positive proof in infanticide because it's always done in secret. Someone killing their infant would not commit it in the public, like in front of everybody, you know? So he says the concealment of the dead body is sufficient enough evidence of the baby being murdered because...
You had shame. You didn't want nobody to see your murdered baby. He continues by saying Alice's denial, maternal attitudes and her lack of tears, all of this. You didn't even have clothes or nothing for your baby. You had no intention on being a mother to this child. You know, it was like you had this baby. You delivered this baby with no preparation, no care, no love. Yeah, you meant to kill this baby. He said, quote,
When you put all these circumstances together, it amounts to probable presumption that the child was born alive and that Alice killed it. The defense's closing argument cemented their story that Alice was giving birth to a stillborn baby and that she only cut the throat because she was pressured to by Fat Schaefer. This was dangerous because he was a white man and he wasn't there to testify, so would they even believe her? They also made sure to let the jury know that
if the baby was born alive, the people downstairs would have heard him cry. And they did not. After the trial was over, the jury goes to deliberate. They get over for three hours and they come back with a verdict. They found Alice guilty of capital murder. At the sentencing, the defense asked for a new trial because they found out that one of the jurors already thought that Alice was guilty before the trial even started.
And then he could have influenced the rest of the jurors. And he says, now, listen, we've never had a trial of this magnitude be retried. Like, we made a decision. Just move on with it. We can't backstep on this big of an issue. It's like, no, no. That's the thing about this time. Like, the... The shame in making a mistake. Like, they couldn't... Right. And the wheels of the law are changing. I mean, literally a month later, the Congressional Congress is about to get together...
everything is changing and you can't just admit that, okay, maybe this is something that we need to update. Of course, now that's something that would automatically happen if a jury said something like that, but then they didn't care. But if it was a white man on trial, I bet you they would have been like, oh, it's fine.
We're good. He's really just saying, like, listen, the opinion of the jury then is then. His opinion now is now. And if it just so happens to be the same, it just so happens to be the same. Alice's attorney challenges this and they're like, just because a trial has never been retried doesn't mean that you can't retry it. That just means it hasn't been done yet before. OK. And the court was like, no, we're not doing it. We're not getting to be a new trial.
So Alice received the death sentence and she was set to be executed by hanging. But after her sentencing, a mob of powerful politicians and people in the community gathered outside of the prison and rioted for Alice to not be put to death. They got up there and they was like, listen, I know Fat Schaefer. He's a disgusting pig. He harasses every woman in this neighborhood. He's trash. You should hear what he did to the milk girl. They're like, no.
I believe she ain't the only story. Story after story after story of this man ain't shit. Right. But here we go. Not believe in the woman and definitely not believe in a black woman. I'm telling you, y'all, this is 1780, 1787. We're in 2022 and the same thing is happening. So it got so bad that John Schaefer was like, these people keep accusing me and I'm an innocent white man. Nothing can harm me. So he decided that he was going to leave the state.
because he was worried that something would happen to him. The mob rioted literally day and night, and they were able to get Alice's hanging overturned by the Honorable Supreme Executive Council. Not only were they able to get the hanging overturned, but she was set free. There's no record of what happened to Alice after, but what we do know is that she did not get lynched by the Pennsylvania government. A year later, in February of 1778,
John Schaefer was indicted on charges.
Not rape charges, of course not, but instead he was charged with damaging property and fleeing to not be prosecuted. After a very short trial, John Schaefer was found not guilty of property damages, but he was found guilty of fleeing the state to avoid prosecution. His penalty was having to pay 1,000 pounds to Philly and an additional 5,000 pounds to ensure he maintained good behavior for the next three years. Now, who
I did this map friend and I did like conversion from, uh,
then to pound now and then convert it to USD. And that 6,000 pounds in 17, 17, what year is this? This is the next year, right? And the 6,000 pounds in 1788 is 1,178,736 dollars. A lot of money. Now we have no idea what happened to Alice after she was set free.
We don't know if she actually was able to get her freedom. Her story is one that we see repeated over and over and over again. That's a story, friend. I'm going to be like, uh-uh, that was too short. Run that back. That's all we got. All right, y'all. It is time for... I'm not black. I'm OG. I didn't do it, but if I did, this is how I would have gotten away with it.
I do it, but if I did, it's really hard doing these for period pieces because... They're so different, right? Nobody cares about your life then, you know? Right?
Well, I'll just talk about what pisses me off. How about that? Sure. The prosecution, y'all pissed me off. First of all, y'all brought up witnesses that technically went against y'all because they were saying that the baby was born. Both of the doctors, the doctor that you brought up and the doctor that defense brought up, both said that the baby was born stillborn. Now, I am not sure...
if the baby was born stillborn or not. And before we sat down to record, I wrestled in my brain the thought, let me take, come with me, everybody. Come with me, friends, through my thought process. Not clearly. I'm thinking that those two falls were intentional. I'm thinking that the log, she found an opportunity for those logs to hopefully abort her baby.
I'm thinking that that baby was born. I mean, the baby hadn't even thawed out and she slit the throat. So is that thought out? So is there come with me now? Is there a possibility that not as much blood was pumping through the baby's veins that was already premature and had been disrupted in the womb to a degree? And could that have been mixed with everything else? Because they originally did not see anything.
the the slit throat so but then I really think I don't know it's it's hard right I don't like how the prosecution was also like well we can assume that we just need to assume that the baby was born alive and so now we're gonna charge her for killing her bastard child you know what it reminds me of it reminds me of this girl remember a couple years ago um in Alabama she
Got into an altercation and then another girl shot her in the belly. Her baby died and she got charged because she shouldn't have been in that situation to endanger her child. So she got charged with like child endangerment and some shit like you're putting all this responsibility on me. And nobody's taking account for other people that are doing wrong in the situations because I'm a black woman. I am not valued. My body is taken care.
And taken for granted. It's taken advantage of. And nobody cares to stand up for me. Schaefer, the way that you upset me, it's like you use your privilege. It was straight him using his privilege to ensure that he could keep her down and keep his good face. He lied. He manipulated. He stole. He raped. He killed. And what am I supposed to say?
I've been in slavery for my entire life and you're telling me that you'll give me freedom. Now, the court documents, I'm not going to hold y'all. The court documents make it seem like it was a consensual relationship. It does. And I'm, of course, not convinced. You are, of course, not convinced. No, but I never really believe that it's the power structure can't make it consensual. You know what I mean? That's.
That's like having a teenage girl in a high school class saying she loves her teacher. It's not consensual because the power structure there, it could never be. And then on top of that, you're going to promise me my freedom?
You're going to promise me my freedom. People would do anything for their freedom. I mean, think about even whatever what you would do for your the freedom of living the life that you want to live. The possibility of that. It's appealing to this day and that that I can give you anything here. I'm going to dangle this candy bar in front of you because I'm so rich, powerful white man. No, thank you.
Things that upset me. I think I have another one. I just I was reading a book about her, Colored Amazons. I put this by Dr. Kalini Gross. She works. She's a professor at Emory here in Atlanta. And I put this book in the discussion group way back when we did Hannah Mary Tabs. But she talks about this case in her book and she says a line. And I just I need to find it real quick because I think it's she says, quote,
If you read her book, you know, these are not my words. It's on page 26 of her book, okay? She says, quote. I'll tell you scriptures.
It's something that we see throughout history. Here I am trying to better my future. Here I am trying to protect myself from the person that is oppressing me. Here I am trying to have a choice over my body. Maybe Alice really didn't want the baby.
Right? Maybe, yeah. There was no maternal instinct because she did not want this child. It's a possibility, right? From her rapist. We don't...
We don't, you're right, we don't actually know, but here, we see it now. Women over and over and over again are killing the people that abuse them, killing the people that rape them, but we are the monsters, right? But we're the ones that have to go down. Nobody is taking a black woman's side of the story. We see it happening in 17-fucking-76, and we see it happening in 20-fucking-22. So it's like the constant theme is that America hates black women. And all of the intersections, everything that is not black,
white, that is not for the majority, which is men, white men, they don't care anything about it. These are things that upset me. And the maternal instincts,
And a lot of times they were basically, it was like, oh, she wasn't being like a woman. Oh, she wasn't being like a lady. Who are you to tell me what a woman and a lady looks like? You white man. That gets you every time. You know what I'm saying? Who are you to tell me what something matronly looks like? And that's what they kept getting on. Oh, she wasn't matronly. She wasn't matronly. You just expect me to be matronly because I'm a black woman having a kid. And all you see me as is a machine to make more slaves for you. And so what you're expecting of me is this matronly old woman
this matronly figure. But when you don't get that, you're confusing. You don't know why, because you have no ability to see me as a person. I mean, we're 1776. So we're not even going to talk about postpartum. We're not going to talk about postpartum because that doesn't even exist at this point. Right. According to the history. Right.
So black women, you're just supposed to be matron. You're supposed to do this. And if you don't, there is something wrong with you. Not wrong with anybody else. Not the circumstances that brought you here. Not the fact that you're a slave. Not the fact that you were taken from your parents. Not the fact that you were constantly raped by a white man. Not the fact that this you clearly have an overbearing mistress. Not not any of that is the fact that you're a black woman. So you're supposed to. It's the same thing that we see today in all of the cases of black women on trial from this case itself.
to now it's the same formula. It's the same thing. It's defeminizing black women to make them seem like monsters and that is the reason why you should have them behind bars. And it's fucked up. Yeah, I second that. I mean, you basically hit all the nails. Took it away, friend. Sorry, I got a little passionate. It's okay. They love it. Do you have any? I didn't do it, but if I did? I ain't do it, but if I did it, the baby was stillborn. Shouldn't have did anything else to it.
I ain't do it. But if I did, if I had to hide that body, you better throw that thing out the window and go get it the next day. Like you need to get it completely out the house, you know? Yeah, because she was getting too loud. I mean, she was nosy. My mind is saying like kill Schaefer instead of the baby, but that wouldn't do her. That's going to cause more trouble. Yeah, that's going to be an automatic hanging. Like and clearly this man is also stalking you. He come. He's a patron at the shop.
And then always knows when you leave to run errands. Right. Will you please stop bugging me? Please stop bugging me. Please stop bugging me again.
All right, friend. Parole or no parole there. She did get out. Yeah, she free, which is crazy. Right. In this time period. We don't know if she was free or not, but I can only assume that she is a slave, but free from jail. Oh, yes. Free. Yeah. She was free from jail, which is it is crazy for this time period. And I think it but also what had to happen. The entire community mobs of people had to come out and protest and protest.
you would think that if that had been happening since then, that something's, and it's been happening multiple times throughout history. I mean,
Her, Joan Little, Assata Shakur. We've seen these Angela Davis. We see these times where the community comes together to fight for these black women and fight for their rights and fight for their voice. It turns out to be a positive. It turns out in the way that we're hoping it to be. But what I've also noted is that we're doing these same fights now.
All these decades in between. These same fights are happening every single... It's just history repeating itself. And everybody's like, oh, history's going to repeat itself if you don't learn from it. Yeah, but the thing is, we know better. But laws are not being put in place. You know that these things are wrong.
The laws are not being put in place to continue to protect us as we're citizens. Even today, black women, I mean, we're American citizens, so we should be afforded the same rights and same protections in the laws. And even though on paper written down, sure, it looks like that, it's constantly shown to us that it doesn't matter, that it doesn't make sense. I mean, that it doesn't matter that we are less than in society and that we're looked down. These same stereotypes from way back when are still following us to this day.
I think it kind of makes you question, though, how do both the doctors come in and say the baby's stillborn and...
still say that she's committed for murder, but then the jury that is your peers who's also defined you, I really wonder if that was an all-male jury. Because if all these jurors found her guilty, why is there a crowd of people outside saying, free her? You know what I mean? Like, was it all white men? Was he Schaefer's good friend since he was... Of course it was all white men. I mean, not Schaefer, but was it Massa's good friends? I don't know.
Yes, of course, it's all white men, but like it's still not taking into the it's just it's just a shitty time period because all of the things are of the time. She shouldn't have been in this position in the first place, like being harassed or punished for having a baby at 16. You know what I'm saying? But it's of the time. She should have been able to tell somebody that she was raped. But who gives a damn? She's not even a person at this point because it's of the time.
She should have been at least been able to tell the people who she worked for something. But who gives a damn? It's of the time and anything that does come up, her telling the truth becomes her fault. Like, it doesn't matter if this man raped you, you got pregnant. You know what I mean? Like, it just this whole time period is just wacky as fuck. It just it couldn't make sense if you drive. I think what pisses me off the most is that this time period, it's it's it's
What do we say? It's 235 years ago, but honestly, it's today. It's today. This could be, this is literally the story of so many people, of so many people, of so many women that are blamed and they're treated the same way. They're treated worse because the resources to rally behind every single woman that is hurt in the way that Alice is hurt, that's hurt in the way that all these women are hurt.
I mean, we'd be protesting all day, every day. Mm-hmm. So is of this time, too, which is wild. All right, it is time for some reviews. You want to go first, Tassie? Sure, sure.
This one says, hey, Killers, found this podcast on TikTok and was definitely feeling the vibes. Coming from somebody who wake up and go to sleep watching True Crime, y'all definitely be having me tuned in. I love the storytelling, love the sidebars and the interaction for the actor's point of view, lol. This by far is my favorite podcast.
Top three for sure. Keep it up, ladies. Thanks. The actors because they're players. It's funny. This was a girl city. I'm telling you. Everybody is like, you look so good in your tick tock. Your hair looks great. I was like, I just washed my face today. Sometimes I don't do it.
No, no, no. You had the makeup on. You was leaning on me. You had the green thing. I texted her. I was like, friend, you look good with a T. Good. Thanks. It's been hot in Georgia. This sun has been looking real good through my window. That's all it's been.
This one said, this one comes from Tanika85. It says, I love this podcast. Five stars. The episodes are the perfect length and I have been amazed how many times Mississippi and Jackson State show up in so many episodes. I mean, I ain't got nothing to say about that. That's y'all.
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