Deep Dive
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It's our 21st episode. It is our, it's our 21st episode. And that means that Sisters Who Kill is officially old enough to drink. So some of you may remember our previous sponsor, Faith, who is like your virtual bartender for everything you need. Well, Faith came through and made some specialty Sisters Who Kill drinks. So right now we are drinking the Murata she wrote. It's so good. It is so good. And next we have the, what is it called?
The Killarita. That's mine. Ooh, the Killarita. Yeah, because Tassie loves margaritas, so it's the Killarita. And that will be drinking on in the middle of the episode at some point. Yeah. So, just so y'all know, we're drinking. Great.
For this week's episode, we kind of have a whodunit type of episode. At first, it seems like a simple open and shut case. But pay attention, y'all, to the small twists and turns within the case throughout the episode, okay? Did our murderess actually commit the crime? Or is she a victim to the hands of the justice system? ♪♪
So let's get into our players. First, we have Kion Pittman, Carla's lover. Then we have Avis Banks, Kion's fiance. And Carla Hughes, our murderess. Carla was born June 12th, 1981, and she is from Jackson, Mississippi. Her birth mother had so many kids to support, so she ended up putting Carla up for adoption as an infant. Her adoptive parents, Carl and Linda Hughes, raised Carla as an only child. She grew up
With what seemed to be like a very loving and supportive household, she grew up learning how to horseback ride. She was in high school bands. She was a cheerleader. She ran tracks. She was in key clubs. She was extremely popular. And she also worked the pageant circuit. She competed in the Mississippi National Teen and the Teen Miss America pageants in Mississippi.
She did it all. She did it all. Even when she was 14, she won the Mississippi State Championship for horseback riding, horseback taming. And not only that, but then she went on and won sixth in the world. So very accomplished. I can imagine being sixth in the world in anything. Literally not even breathing. Like sixth in the world. In what?
In what? She grew up around a family of educators. And growing up in that environment was a catalyst for her love of children. She loved kids. She knew at a very young age that she too wanted to be an educator. So after high school, she went to college at the University of Southern Mississippi and got her bachelor's in early childhood education. And then she went on and got her master's in education from Belle Haven College. Throughout this time, she was dating, she got engaged, and then she found out she was pregnant. But!
In 2004, while she was four months pregnant, her fiance called it off and dipped out on her and her child's life.
But she continued to press on. She had her son. She landed a job as a middle school language arts teacher at Chastain Middle School in Jackson, Mississippi. She also was the head cheerleading coach. And so it seemed like she was really achieving her goals. She really enjoyed her students and she got along with all of her coworkers. She got especially close to one coworker, Mr. Keon Pittman. All right, y'all. So Keon was a play player from the Himalayas. All right.
He was 31 years old when he and Carla met because he was also employed at Chastain Middle School. He was a math teacher, and he also coached the basketball team. So naturally, the basketball coach and the cheerleading coach, like they're going to spend some time around each other, right? So they started spending a lot of time around each other. Carla says she walked up to him one day because she heard a conversation that she was kind of interested in, and they haven't stopped talking since.
So he was a super flirt. He was. And they wasn't just talking about basketball games, y'all. They was talking outside of school. They would hang out at each other's houses. They would go out to eat. And Carly would often spend evenings with him at On the Border. You ever went to On the Border and got the Coronerita? No, because I try to go to like real Mexican restaurants. No, we go strictly for his margaritas. Don't know any food on their menu.
So they spent their weekends here because this is where Keon worked nights. He doubled as a bartender. And this was also a good opportunity for him to pick up some more ladies, if you know what I'm saying. He made the drinks right. Somebody's going home tonight, okay? Now, Keon was not...
an attractive person but it'd be them real average niggas that got hella game you know they know how to talk to you it's not that they have game it's the real average niggas that have confidence and the confidence is part of the game so this was him he knew how to talk to people he knew how to stand up and be noticed and it worked for him you know and so kian and carla's relationship it started to grow but there was only one problem
Keon was engaged to his baby mama, who's five months pregnant at the house. Like, it's his first child in the womb still. Like, he doesn't have an actual baby in his arms. But that's his baby mama. She five months pregnant. He engaged. She about to come soon. So, Keon was engaged to Avis.
Avis Banks was born the middle child out of three to her parents Frederick and Deborah Banks in Vicksburg, Mississippi on August 18th, 1979. Like Carlin Keon, she too was passionate about the youth. She was the first person in her family to graduate from college where she graduated cum laude with a degree in early childhood education from Alcorn State University. HBCU in the game. She worked at a local daycare, but she had hopes of opening up her own one day.
When the couple found out that they were pregnant on June 2006, Avis' strict parents were not happy that she was pregnant out of wedlock. You know, we're in Mississippi here. So Avis, like, went to her parents, and she apologized for disappointing them, and she was sorry that she got pregnant. And she was like, I'm going to make this right. We're going to get married, and we're going to have a proper family. So the couple got engaged, and they bought a house.
And they set the wedding date for February 2007. Now, according to Keon's family on Snap, they said that he wasn't exactly ready to get married. He definitely felt the pressure of needing to get married because his child was on the way. But wanting to get married, they don't so much know that he felt that way. You know what I mean?
So, though Keon was engaged, according to both Keon and Carla, they knew that they were just having a fling and neither one of them took their relationship too seriously. According to Keon, Carla and him were both fully aware of his upcoming nuptials and did not plan on getting in the way of that. So this brings us to Wednesday, November 29th, 2006.
The day starts off like any other work day. School starts and ends on time, just like normal. Before basketball practice starts, Keon calls his fiance, Avis, to see what she would like for dinner. Avis tells him what she has a hankering for, and so Keon decides he's going to run to the store and grab some groceries.
Now, he goes and grabs the groceries, but because of where he lives in relation to the school and the grocery store, he calls his good friend, heavy air quotes, Carla, and asks if he can drop off the groceries while he's in basketball practice, and afterwards he'll come by, pick them up, and he'll head home. You know, drop off the perishables. She says...
cool whatever and so he swings by around 4 40 drops off the groceries and leaves at 5 10 in time to get back to school for the basketball practice that starts at 5 30 while he's at basketball practice he calls her around 6 15 and she's like oh i just got to work it out and i'm about to shower he's like all right i'll see you when i go and go and pick up the groceries that's what practice goes as expected and kion leaves the gym around 7 30 and he's at her house by 7 50 he swings by he grabs the groceries as expected
They both say that they chatted for about 45-ish minutes, according to both him and Carla. Then Keon leaves and he heads home. You know, he's got the groceries for the house for Avis. According to court documents, Keon is said to arrive at his home at 8.40 p.m. From the time that Keon started basketball practice to before he got home, apparently Keon was trying to get in contact with Avis and was like, hey,
What's up? Hey, how are you? Basketball practice started at what time? Basketball practice started at 5.30. Okay. So it was like a two-hour basketball practice, which is pretty standard for after-school sports. Okay.
So he was texting her during the practice and on the way home like hey, what's up? Groceries I got everything Boba and she wasn't texting back and it concerned him so much that she wasn't texting him back within that two-hour span That he ended up calling Avis his mother who lives an hour away and was like hey Have you heard from Avis and his mom was like? No, I I haven't heard from her like I
Is something wrong? He's like, oh, no, nothing's wrong. Click. Hang up on her. Right.
Now, most of us have a routine when we get home. Like, everybody knows, you know, you park at the same spot, you go through the front door, back door, garage door, whatever, however you do it. Now, Keon, too, also has a routine, as well as Avis. But today, and his routine is to go through the front door when he arrives at the house. Right. But today, he decided to do something a little different. He decided that he was going to open the garage door and go through the garage. Don't know why he made this decision. Don't know if it was the groceries were too heavy. Don't know why he did it.
But when he opens the garage, he is met with Avis's lifeless body laying out on the floor in a pool of water. Alright, now this is where Keon's actions get a little suspicious. After finding the body, he pulls out his cell phone and the first person that he calls is Carla. Not 911. Carla.
So he's calling Carla. He's freaking out. He was like, oh, my God, she's dead. You have to help me. Help me. Help me. She's dead. Right. And when he gets off the phone with Carla, he runs to his neighbor's house and he's banging on the door. And it was like, don't know who the fuck's knocking at my door like that.
But I'm not answering. It was a woman hearing a knock. She told her husband, she said, you're going to have to get that because it sounded like some mess. And my door opens the door. He was like, call 911. My fiance's been murdered. He was like, baby, call 911. His fiance's been murdered. So she's like, oh, no. So she calls 911. She was like, he says his fiance's been murdered, right?
so they go back over to the house he's got avis in his arms crying pleading or whatever so he found her body at 8 40 by 8 46 cops was there okay that's suspiciously fast maybe they lived close to a police station you're telling me in six minutes he arrived at the house found her dead called carla
Ran and banged on the neighbor's door. The neighbors wondered, who the fuck is that at my door? Sent the husband out, called 911, and the police came. Then he ran back to the house and held her lifeless body until they arrived. In six minutes. I know six minutes is a long time, but in six minutes? He's an athlete. Girl.
So the first thing that the police do when they get there is they secure the crime scene. They get Keon off of Avis's body and they look at everything that is happening at the house. They search the house and they see that the place has been completely ransacked. So initially they're thinking that Avis was the victim of a robbery gone wrong, right? They take...
Avis's body for an autopsy and they see that she was shot four times. She was shot in the thigh, the left buttocks, the chest, and the head. She was also stabbed at least three times, one of them slashing her throat.
According to Dateline, when they found Avis, her pants were down as if she was sexually assaulted. And they also were trying to figure out how could the perpetrator have gotten in. But they found on the back door, they have like a glass door that is covered by a wooden frame. And they see that there are kick marks of the door and there's a shoe print. They can tell by the kick marks that somebody tried to kick like the middle of the door and...
That's not how you kick a door in. And finally, the person, whoever it was, kicked near the lock, and that's how you get into a house. Right. Obviously. Right. After the autopsy, they placed Avis' time of death to be around 5.30 p.m. Okay, so the police are like, okay, we need to start with the obvious.
It's a bloody crime scene, so this is a crime of passion, and crime of passions, you know, or any type of crime, you start with the people who live in the house. So they take Keon down to the station to give a statement. So Keon comes in, and detectives are kind of off-put by his behavior. They said that he was not acting as if someone's fiance and baby just died.
Sometimes he was cracking jokes. Other times he was sad. It said at one point the detective, like, after he was cracking a joke or whatever, the detective was like, do you remember that your fiancé and baby just died? And he was like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, guys. So they're in there and they're talking to Keon or whatever. And they're asking him all these questions. And he was like, listen, y'all think I did it, didn't y'all? Like, y'all trying to set me up for this shit. And...
They're like, no, sir, we're just asking you questions. He's like, I don't like it. Y'all trying to hold me hostage. Y'all wouldn't even let me use the bathroom. They're like, we let you use the bathroom. He was like, not until I begged to go. And they was like, but did you go? He was like, eventually I went. And he was like, so don't say that. So, like, they're not really feeling each other at this moment.
So then the detective is like, listen, I'm about to give you this Miranda warning. Sign this paperwork so we can get forward to the questioning. And he was like, I'm not signing shit. He was like, y'all not about to put down that I said this, that, and the third and next thing. I know I'm in jail. They said, sir.
This is just a Miranda warning, meaning that we can ask you questions regarding the case and that you've been Mirandized. He's like, you're not putting my name on nothing. He's like, at this point, I don't even feel comfortable talking to y'all. I invoke the Fifth Amendment. I want a lawyer.
They're like, sir, you're doing an awful lot right now. Can you at least give us an alibi for where you were? He's like, oh, I was at basketball practice or whatever. And he's like, but can anybody specifically alibi you? And he's like, well, a matter of fact, they can. Ask Brenda Martin. So they do. So it turns out Brenda Martin was a mom of one of the kids on the basketball team.
Apparently, Brenda and Keon have been talking a little more than just her son's performance on the court.
And apparently Brenda has also been going to see Keon over at On The Border while he's serving her drinks. Now, they just had some casual flirting, a little kiki here and there, maybe some inappropriate text. But that's as far as their relationship had gone. But why was Brenda so tight-lipped to talk about it?
Was it because he was almost married and had a baby on the way? Or was it because she was already married and cheating on her husband with her son's basketball coach? So the police are kind of looking at Keon a little funny, right? Like, they're like, listen, we just brought you in for a witness statement, but you...
are not acting like just a witness. You want a lawyer, you're invoking your fifth. So maybe you do need to be a suspect. And they start digging in and neighbors said that, you know, his routine changed and he went into the garage instead of the front door. And of course we know that he's got women all over the place. You know what I'm saying? His family is saying that maybe he didn't really want to be married and all this shit. So they're like, you know what? Maybe, maybe we do need to look into you. Right. Right.
So the police let him go because they have nothing to hold them on. But they're like, we're definitely going to dig into you a little deeper. So now we're on December 1st, 2006, two days after Avis's body was found. Police decide to bring in Carla for questioning. Initially, Carla says, yes, her and Kian are co-workers. And of course she knows about his fiance. She's crying. And they're like, why are you crying? She said, I'm just so sad about his fiance because December 1st, two days after she was found, was also Avis's funeral.
And she says, of course I know about everything that happened, but we're just co-workers. We're just friends. And she leaves the police station. And then, later on in the day, she returns to the police station. And she actually admits to the police that her and Kian did have a sexual relationship. But again...
She reiterates that she knew that he had a fiance, that she knew that messing around with him wasn't that deep. And when they were like, were you expecting Keon to leave Avis for you? She's like, absolutely not. I didn't want him to leave her for me or for anyone else. So like never implicated him, never said anything really bad about him.
So then the detectives ask Carla if she owns a gun and she says, no, I don't own a gun. And they're like, okay, well, do you have access to a gun? And she's like, no access to a gun. I mean, like my daddy had guns, but I ain't got a gun and I don't have access to guns.
And the interview with Carla kind of raised suspicion for the detectives. But what the detectives were really honing in on is the fact that that back door was kicked in and they just didn't believe that a woman could kick down that door. Kick down your door. And smack your bitch. Just to show you Monica not having it. I love Gunika. I don't know. She's a cheerleader, right? I mean...
She used to be a cheerleader. She's a cheer coach, so she knows something, right? It's not about what she knows. It's about the shirt that she holds on her legs to kick down that door. She could. So, they don't think it's her. They let her go. They have nothing to hold on her. And the detectives are already early off a bit puzzled on how to solve this case. And it wasn't until it took...
And it wasn't until a few days later, on December 5th, 2006, when an attorney contacted the police saying that their client had some very interesting information that would assist the investigation. Their client's name was Patrick Nash. Patrick is actually Carla's cousin. And what he says to the police turns this investigation on its head.
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Patrick tells the police that back on November 26, Carla, who's his cousin, came to him and asked to borrow a gun. And he's like, why do you need a gun? She told him that her neighborhood was unsafe and it was super dangerous and she was really worried about her safety. So he was like, okay, well, I'll come by, I'll protect you. You know, I got you, cuzzo, or whatever. And she was like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, just give me your gun. And actually, while you edit, let me get one of those hunting knives too, just, you know, to keep me safe.
So Patrick was like, okay, sure. And he gave her a .38 revolver loaded with five bullets. And on December 1st, which was two days after the murder, the day that she was questioned by the police, she returns the gun to Patrick. Now, when Patrick checks the gun, he's like, ayo, because my bullet's all gone. And she's like, oh, it's because I went to the gun range. Like, no, you know, I went to the gun range. I used up all the bullets. Oops.
And she never returned this hunting knife to Patrick. He never got the knife back, but he got the gun back. And according to Patrick, Carla was crying when she returned the revolver, and Carla denies that she ever was crying. But apparently, he asked her, he was like, I mean, the murder had hit the news at this point. And so, he literally looked at her and was like,
uh you involved with that murder does this have to do with that murder up there and she didn't answer she just hung her head and left so on the next day december 6 2006 carla was arrested and charged with accessory to the murders that's murders with the s because in mississippi if the fetus is five months or more then it's a life so you can be charged with the murder of a child so murders
The police got a warrant to search Carla's house and according to the Criminal Discourse podcast, they were searching for six things in particular. One, ammunition or shell casings because turns out she picked up all the shell casings from the crime scene. They weren't able to locate any. Two, a knife of any kind that could be used to puncture somebody or stab or slit their throat. Three, any clothing that had bloodstains on it. Four, shoes that matched the shoe print left on the glass door.
Five, gloves that might contain any physical evidence or blood. And six, any documentation or written communication that showed a relationship between Carla and Keon. They didn't find everything that they were looking for, but what they did find was a women's size 10 tread safe shoes that matched the tread pattern from the crime scene, a photograph of Keon on her nightstand, and a handwritten letter with the initials KP on it.
I do not have the picture on my nightstand of just any old body, especially just like a regular friend. Framed. First of all. Framed. Framed. If it's a me and a guy, we're together. Or it's a me and a person, I should say. We're together. Like... Together, together. I think the frame photo that I have on my nightstand is of my family. Listen, frame photos are family. Yes, I was like, it's my family. It's my family. You've seen the frame photo on my nightstand. It is family. Yeah.
So, the police didn't find a gun, they didn't find a knife, but they're stupid suspicious about this matching sole pattern on the glass door. The shoes were also a size 10, and it had what it looked like to be blood on it. The shoes and the revolver that Patrick brought in were sent to the crime lab for testing, and right now, at this point, she was still under arrest for the accessory to the murders.
did a little detective work or whatever and they're like you know what let's go through the cell phone records of kian carla and avis right so the cops are like let's dig into these phone records all right so they start off with kian they see that at 5 12 he makes a call by 5 37 he's at basketball practice and has already dropped off the groceries to carla's house right
So at 6.15, he calls Carla and he's like, you know, what are you doing? She's like, I'm at the gym. Well, I just finished at the gym. I'm about to go home and shower. He's like, all right, I'll see you when I finish practice to come pick up them groceries. She's like, all right, cool. See you later. So then at 7.18, he has another call that's within the range of Carla's home and school.
And the calls at 841 and 846 are calls from his home, right? 841 being the call that he made right after the murder to call Carla. And then 46 was what to call her parents. Right, because all those towers have like a two-mile radius. So you have to be within like two miles of the cell phone tower. Right. So then they go and they look at...
Avis phone records. Avis phone records. She's got a call at 536 and it shows that she's, you know, on her regular route home. She should be pulling up basically at any moment as scheduled. Right. Then they look into Carla's phone records. So Carla answers the phone at 530 and she's within a two mile radius of Kiana Avis's house.
The call ends shortly after and she's still in that same area. At 6.04, she places a call within the same range but ends the call at 6.07 and is now outside of that two-mile radius away from the house. So what this told them was they knew that Avis died between 5.50 and 6 o'clock, right? Which means in that window, Carla was within a two-mile radius, right?
That's what they're arguing. That's what they're arguing. So, you know, throughout this whole time, you know, they've only charged her with accessory, right? And they're like, we really think Kimon has something to do with it, and we just need her to spill the beans, but we think she's trying to protect her man. They done tried talking to her lawyers, trying to get her lawyer to tell her to plead on this man. She was like, listen, if I knew he had something to do with it, I'd tell you, but I just don't know. I wasn't with the man, right?
I don't care if I was with you or not. If y'all telling me to say he did it, I'm going to say he did it to get my ass out. I'm going to say it because y'all not going to keep calling me. Listen. I mean, she's in jail at this point. You're not going to be calling me up to the school to be talking about nothing. Listen. So, they're like, we've got a lot of evidence against you, dude. We've got one. You brought this gun. Now, Carla says...
I was scared. There was a burglary attempt on my home recently, and I was just scared. So that's why I asked them for the gun. Then, you know, they find the shoes at her house.
And she's within the radius, so they're like, I mean, at this point, we think you have something to do with it, and if you want to go down for all of it, fine. You want to keep saying he has nothing to do with it? We'll take your word for it. So on December 8, 2006, they upped her charges to two counts of capital murder. She was officially indicted on July 30, 2008, where she pled not guilty, and she and her defense team prepared to go to trial. Trial.
Trial was scheduled for October 2009. So it had been three years since Avis was murdered that Carla actually saw a jury. So trial was scheduled for October of 2009. Now this had been three years since Avis was murdered that Carla finally got to see a jury. Within those two years out of the three years that she was in jail awaiting trial, Keon had already gotten remarried and got a baby on the way. Okay.
Like he ain't got bigger problems to worry about. So the prosecution sent a copy of the marriage license to Carla in jail to basically try to get her upset and get her to turn on Keon. It didn't faze her. Not one bit. So the jury was made up of seven white men, two white women, two black women, and one black man.
Keon originally did not want to testify in court, but he got subpoenaed, so he had to. While on the stand, he said that, yes, him and Carla had a sexual friendship. Sexual friendship. Yeah, a sexual friendship. But still, it was nothing more than just a friendship. He also said that Carla started talking some crazy shit. So, according to him...
She was trying to move too fast and shit. She was talking about meeting his family. And one time she claimed that she was pregnant when she really wasn't. I don't know why they go for that because at some point you're going to have to produce some results. You know what I'm saying? And she doesn't have any. And you can time those out pretty easily. Yeah. If you tell me you're pregnant right now and you're like, I'm pregnant, I'm keeping it, right? Yeah.
Then I'm going to be expecting a baby in nine months, not 12 months when you figure out how to get pregnant and time it right. Nigga, I'm going to be expecting an ultrasound next week. Let's go. Show me your test right now. Let's get an ultrasound. Also, Carla was going around to her friends and she was like, yeah, you know, that's my man. That's my future husband. We going to be together.
And here's the thing, like, I'm not about to say, oh, this is my future man, this is my future nothing if I know you got somebody. Like, if I'm feeling you and I think that there's a future, I might be like, mm-hmm. But I know you got somebody that also has a ring on they finger. Anyways.
So the prosecution uses this and they're like, oh, she's a jealous lover trying to get rid of the competition. Now, when the defense team gets a hold of him and they get a chance to talk to him, they're focused on two main things. First, were the shoes found at Carla's home? Now, these are a size 10 tread safe. Turns out Carla wears that size, but Kian also wears that size. Hmm.
things that make you go hmm and the defense also got keon to admit that he in fact has a key to carla's home will had a key to carla's home and will borrow her shoes all the time that's fucking weird is it though
I don't know that it's weird, but what I'm trying to understand, tread safe are like work shoes, right? Right, like if you're serving. If you're serving. Or bartending. Or bartending. And if you have a key to the house, you probably leave some shit there. I'm sure he's got a drawer. He's definitely got a framed photo on the nightstand. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't see any reason for Carla to have these tread safe shoes, right?
Because even as a cheerleader coach, you wear cheerleader shoes or sneakers, not tread safes. Right, if she's not moonlighting as a bartender, then why would she need them? I think it's weird, but the weirdness of it all helped the defense try and convince the jury that she was not the killer, but that in fact, Kion was the killer. So they were focusing on the fact that Kion was actually the one that killed it. And they were trying to say that like Kion somehow slipped out of basketball practice and
ran to his house killed her and slipped back the jury took eight hours to come to a verdict i'm gonna save my opinions for the end of the episode right i'm trying to hold it the jury took eight hours to come to a verdict they came back to the courtroom and announced that um that carla was found guilty of both the murders of avis brooks and avis's unborn child now this is a capital murder case in the state of mississippi you
You know what I'm saying? So the death penalty is on the table. So on October 14, 2009, Carla was spared from the death penalty. And instead, she was sentenced to two consecutive life sentences. So in 2012, Carla filed for an appeal because she just personally felt like there was a lot of fishy shit going on with her case. And I kind of agree. Let's break it down. One, her and Keon, again, were the same size. Two...
Forensics was a little fishy because they said that Keon had gunshot residue on him, but they acted like it wasn't pertinent to the case. This was because it was like he didn't have a gunshot burn, which is what somebody would have firing the gun. He just had residue, which he could have picked up from holding the body.
They're like, okay, he also had blood all over him. And it was like, yeah, but he held the body. You know what I'm saying? But you can't, like, distinguish the blood from the murder and the blood from holding her, right? She's also like, he had access to my house. He could have got to the shoes or whatever. On top of that, your medical examiner that you guys got is suspect as fuck. In one year alone, he did between 1,500...
and 1,800 autopsies, which averages out between four or five a day. And they're like, that's an awful lot. Like, I mean, I don't know anything about autopsies, but I be watching Ducky from NCIS, and he be working on one body for a couple days, you know what I'm saying, to be thorough. So he's doing four or five in one day. That's a lot. It turns out he actually ended up having two cases overturned, and the two cases that he had overturned, those people were in jail for 12 or more years.
And right. And it was like, because it was like, in addition to doing all those autopsies, he was also making like a million dollars a year. And it was like, it wasn't just because he was getting paid for doing autopsies. He was getting paid for testifying too. So, so he was double dipping. He was not credible at all. He was not credible. And he was like a walking conflict of interest. Right. And so you get paid to testify. I feel like that's supposed to be like your civil duty.
Or a subpoena. Or a subpoena because the jury... But that's the thing. And so now he's no longer recommended as an M.E. in the state of Mississippi. They took him off the recommendation list. Smart and Rita is pretty good. Yeah.
I'm fucking with it. The Emmy is fishy on its own. They tried to bring that up and they was like, we don't care. On top of that, this is the same Emmy that said originally that there were no blood on the shoes and then came back like three weeks later and was like, as a matter of fact, there was blood on the shoes.
And he explains it away, of course. And he was like, listen, they told me don't test the soles because they were looking to compare the soles to the footprint on the glass. And he was like, so I didn't test the soles. And that's where the blood was. Which sounds a little suspect because don't you think the blood would be on top? Why would you not test the entire shoe period? Because he's saying he had to leave it alone for testing. But I feel like that footprint evidence is just a picture. And you see if the pictures line up like a fingerprint, right? I'm no expert. I'm no expert.
but that's how i so then outside of the me she also is like on top of everything else i had a shitty ass lawyer which i can't agree her lawyer was shit her lawyer was a tobacco litigator and he said he had done criminal cases but is it like tobacco criminal crimes does that count as criminal he was like that's still white collar that's still white collar crimes
He was like, I've done criminal cases and criminal people do whatever they can to flip over. Not who I would choose to represent me when I'm being charged with two capital murder cases. But despite all of that, on June 21st, 2012, the Mississippi Supreme Court ruled that her ruling be upheld. It was like, you still had opportunity, you still had means, you still had motive. So we're going to go with it. I just feel like that is enough reasonable doubt.
to at least warrant another trial. I feel like there was an... The problem was the lawyer that she hired was a family friend and she wanted to take, you know, she probably trusted this man to look out for her best interests and not just be after the money. But it's skill. It's skill. And this is something that you want to pay for. You know what I mean? I asked my daddy to buy me a lawyer and I was like, this is the cheapest one he found. He was like, this is not something you go with the cheapest on. Yeah.
This is something that you want to pay them and make sure that you have somebody who's going to do it. You know what I mean? Right. So... I feel that. And here's the crazy thing about the case. I feel like they didn't really get a chance to talk to...
Avis's family a lot because we saw in an article but not on the stand that at Thanksgiving so mind you this happened on November 29th y'all already know this happened on November 29th and so you know that Thanksgiving just happened a few days before now while Keon was with Avis with Avis's family Avis's mama and sister in them was like girl
Your man's show is on the phone a lot. Mm-hmm. And he, is that a, is he cheesing over there while he on the phone? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Girl, he outside whispering in a low tone on the phone. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That's it. She didn't say nothing. Didn't know who she was talking to. Nothing like that.
here's the real tea right okay so this same weekend turns out carla followed them to wherever the fuck her family is from right followed them to where they was at calls kian says i just got a hotel come see me he goes and sees her this same thanksgiving weekend
hangs out with her for a little bit she was like i want to spend some time with you let's have a night on the town he said no girl we're her family i can't spend a night with you i mean you've already left that house but you definitely can't spend the night right no i if i invite a person to my family function and you just up and leave for any amount of time
You're never coming back. See, this is the thing. I don't feel like it was a family function. I feel like it was a family weekend. It's Thanksgiving. But it's more than... It's Thanksgiving into the weekend. You have Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Exactly. You know what I'm saying? So he has time to get out the house and it not be a big deal. No, nigga. It's a holiday weekend. You supposed to be with motherfucking me. No. Because let me tell you, y'all not my family.
Y'all are our family. But you're supposed to be... You're about to enter the family, though. We're engaged. They're engaged! But did they? I mean, technically.
Listen, per his family, he didn't even want this shit. I understand that, but you have an image to uphold within this here four walls. I don't give a fuck. No, you don't. Because he hasn't been upholding that image so far. In this case alone, we already know about two different women who he was cheating on her with. That's all we know about. Because that's all that was pertinent to this case.
ahead to someone else within two years of her death he was already married with the baby on the way that was not his family it just wasn't i got something better for you okay tell me so apparently when
Keon went to go get questioned by the police the first time right the police he wasn't in the official interrogation room but when he was outside the official interrogation room he made a phone call and the detectives found that phone call very weird because he was talking very low but they could tell that he was like hey baby and they were like baby we are here because your wife has been murdered Beyonce was still a broken thing
Your fiance has been... Broke it. No, I'm just kidding. We are here because your fiance just got murdered. And you are on the phone with somebody, and, you know, they didn't say nothing. When they found the call later, guess who he was on the phone with? One of them women. And it wasn't Avis. It was Carla calling her baby. So I don't understand why he was up here calling her crazy.
Right when it seems like you leaned on her quite heavily your fiance is murdered and the first person who you doubt is Carla Not your nigga. Not your bro. Not your dad. Not the cops But Carla saying I just need help really quickly even though the cops arrived to your house within six minutes and
Now, when he was asked why you with the cell phone, who your cell phone obviously worked, you know, and you called Carla from it, but you ran to the neighbor's house and told them to call the cops. Why was that? Right.
So I feel like this entire case is very fishy. And Carla is still maintaining her innocence. She says that there is absolutely no way that she committed this murder. Her son, of course, she has a son from the engagement went wrong. And the son is being raised by her parents. All right, y'all, it is time for... Well, I'm not black. I'm OJ.
I ain't do it. But if I did, this is how I would get away with it. Okay, y'all. This week we're going to do it a little differently. Just because this is kind of a whodunit case, I don't think I'm officially convinced. So I have a couple of theories on who actually killed Avis. If it wasn't Carla. You want to go first or you want me to go first? Because we both do. Yeah, I've got some theories. I've got a few. I can go. I can get this out of the way. So, first of all,
It's very suspect that Kion wears the same size shoe as her. I don't think that's suspect in a man. Like, that's weird. I also think it's... I mean, I done seen some size 8 1⁄2 niggas, you know what I'm saying? How tall was he? Was he like a 5'7"-ass guy? I don't know, but that just gives me very... Because, you know, I like everything, gender-wise. And it gives me very, I'm dating my girlfriend. Listen, he was obviously...
He was obviously performing where he needed to perform. You know what I'm saying? Okay. Because he had the lady's hook. Okay. It ain't the size of the boat, but the motion of the ocean. And we are done. So...
I don't know, but he wore the same shoe size. He had access to her house. Yeah, her cell phone, things were peeing in, but she just very much seems unconcerned about this nigga having a relationship. And even if they tried to stir her about it, she didn't flip out about it. So y'all telling me she lost it and murdered him? You know what I'm saying? I mean, murdered her?
You know, like that's the point. She lost it. She don't care if he's married now. She don't care about this and the other. She's not going to turn on him. But she was so jealous that she killed his pregnant fiance. I'm just not buying it. Right. So I think that Keon had two problems he needed to get rid of. One, this pregnant fiance, because he wasn't necessarily ready to settle down. We can see that by his actions. But two, Carla...
so-called thirsty ass, right? Per him, she was thirsty as fuck. Heavy air quotes. Heavy. I don't know. But I feel like he was like, I tell you what, I can get rid of both of them. Pleading the fifth during trial. Like, what do you have to plead the fifth about? He pled the fifth during the trial. He also pled the fifth
during that interview, during his initial interview. Yeah. You don't plead the fifth unless you're invoking your right to incriminate yourself. Now, it's clear that he did not understand the law because he also was like, y'all are not about to put something in my confession and they just wanted him to sign a Miranda waiver. But I still feel like
You're invoking the fifth. The second time during trial, that's your lawyer, not you invoking the fifth. You know what I'm saying? Or your lawyer coaching you to invoke the fifth. So you had something to hide, right? Clearly. I think he set Carla up like he was in constant communication. Oh, I just finished working out. I'm headed home to shower. You're searching for your baby moms because she didn't text you back within an hour.
It's giving very... You went through the garage for no reason? It's giving very, I set this up strategically as fuck.
Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, he paid attention to the small parts and the small details and was like, I can make this happen. You know, I'm going to alibi myself. I'm going to have whoever go over there, whether it was Carla or whether it was somebody else. But I think he was involved at some point. And what's interesting enough is they asked him on trial. And they said, do you feel responsible for her murder? And he said, yes. And they said, why? And he said, because...
If I would have just stayed faithful to the person that I was with, then none of this would have happened. The person you was with, Avis. You was with like 51 people. If you were faithful to Avis, then it wouldn't have happened. Why couldn't you say her name? He should have definitely said her name. I'd be damned if I get murdered because you fucking around. And the least you can do is say my name on trial. Damn, if I'd have been faithful to the person I was with. Well, who was you with? Which day? Because you... Avis lost again. Like...
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rocketmoney.com slash sisters hear me out what if it was one of these other bitches we ain't never even heard of right what if it's a woman they out they the only two i plus the three the mom right i doubt they're the only three now what if it was whoever he's in he's married to now
Because it's a very quick turnaround. And I would be damned if I'm with somebody married to them and then they have to go on trial for murder of their ex-fiance. They have to testify in court for their ex-fiance because their ex-girlfriend killed them. Like, that's a lot to be dealing with a man. Messy baggage. Sounds like a lot. That's a lot of messy baggage to be dealing with a man unless you are willing to deal with it as well. I'm telling you, he's got a lot to offer somewhere. Yeah.
Because it ain't your face, okay? She's got a lot to offer somewhere, okay? That's all I'm saying. I don't know where. I don't know where. Because it's not like a gym teacher slash math teacher makes a lot of money. Betty also had the bartending job. That's the tips, you know what I'm saying? My niggas holding out free jobs.
girl hard working okay you gotta hold down a lot of jobs when you got a lot of bitches you know who he reminds me of one of my niggas was talking about his girlfriend wasn't girlfriend not one of your niggas not not one of your niggas oh my tell us tell us one of my friends was talking about how his girlfriend was like oh let's get it let's get a girlfriend
I mean, I was like, you want to do that, bro? That shit expensive. That's just sound expensive. Like one guy with two girls. It's not expensive. I mean, if you want to do your thing, you can do your thing. But for me, I'm thinking about the wallet. My heart is attached to the wallet. I can only afford one. I can barely afford me. Barely afford that one. But and I don't understand why these texts, why these they really didn't.
Maybe it wasn't made public, but I really would have liked to seen text messages a little bit more detail in the phone logs. I think it could have just been what was released to the media, what was released to the public, because the trial overall was pretty closed. So we're just going off of articles that we found. But I would have liked to see, you know, who deciphered these text messages and what they said, especially text messages between him and Barbara.
At the basketball practice. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I need to know these things. I need to know. It was probably all filthy. It was probably all filthy. Girl, you got no evidence in here.
you look so good at these fucking uh bleachers all right couldn't keep my eyes off you couldn't keep my eyes i can't even pick first they calls and shit first of all let's talk about this if you are my son's basketball coach i'm gonna need you to make sure that the motherfucker is running in shape i can't comment because my mom definitely dated my soccer coach i can't comment i have nothing
Okay, you know who he reminds me of? Who? You know, on John Legend's first album, he had that song with Kanye. And Kanye was like, I don't want to cheat, but I don't be saying shit. I tried to jack off. He told me, who's you playing with? But I know he love you. He told me you was his favorite. That sound like him all the fucking way. All the way to a T that sounds like him. Oh my gosh.
Like, listen, it's not about the love. I'm really out here. But he's doing a little more than just fucking these like. He's whispering stuff in their ears. You know what I mean? All right, girl. Parole or no parole. I definitely think she needs a retrial. If I was sitting on a jury personally, I don't know without a reasonable doubt. I don't think I could convict her without a reasonable doubt. There just wasn't enough evidence. If evidence pulls up and, you know,
Turns out she did do it and that evidence wasn't illegally tampered with. Then I have no problem convicting her, but it just doesn't seem something in the math isn't mathing. Even with the times, something in the math is just not mathing for me, especially the phone calls and especially the arrival at Avis's body. So I say retrial, let me get some more evidence. Let's really get some, um,
expert witnesses and let's make sure that this why did they bury avis so early i maybe they didn't have any plans to make like i feel a lot of the funeral plans is coordinate coordinating everything and they had a family plot so she was buried there with the rest of her family and when it comes to family plots you pay for that shit in advance
So when it comes time to it, there's no holdup. It's just getting the funeral. You know what I mean? But the thing is so much happened. Like if I'm murdered, keep my body as, as long as you can, because so much can be learned from the deceased body. You know what I'm saying? So much that clearly was overlooked by this medical examiner, but so much can just be learned. Even so much can be learned. Postmortem is what I'm saying. And, and,
I feel like putting her in the ground so early just took away a lot of evidence. But you know what? That affected the trial. That autopsy was probably complete because they had that medical examiner who was doing four or five autopsies a day. And that's bullshit. So he probably released that body. It's like, you know what? We're done with it. You can have the body and give it back to her. That's BS. And them thinking that, you know what I'm saying? Trusting the police and everything and thinking that shit runs the way it's supposed to because shit should run the way it's supposed to and there's no reason that it shouldn't.
But people would disappoint you every day. And people will always look out for themselves. And a medical examiner was one of those people looking out for himself. So that could be one of the reasons why she buried so early. If he finished with the autopsy and they got this shit paid for, why would they wait? Yeah. I don't just understand why they spent so much money on a lawyer, family friend that really could not help her. They paid for him? Yes. That's unfortunate. They spent a lot of money.
Wasn't that the point of him being a family friend? Well, they, that's why there's this like GoFund, it's not a GoFundMe, but there's a like raise funds for her type of deal. But that was for her appeal, right? Yeah, but somebody donated like this year, so. I think that's all we have today. Yeah. Okay, boom. All right, let's get on to reviews. Do you want to go first or you want me to go first? Or we should, we're doing one. We just do the one. Okay, friend, I have a review for us this week.
It's a little different. If you like the podcast as a whole, you know, go to Apple. Give us a five-star review. This says, this one comes from Activist Chan. Activist Chan gave us three stars and said, A Rose and Thorns.
Activist Chan said,
At 16, even if it is the age of consent, the power dynamic in the prison makes it as rape. At 15, cannot consent. She was raped. We must call it rape. At 16, even if it is the age of consent, the power dynamic in a prison makes it
rape as well, even if the law has not caught up. We must acknowledge it as so. It was disappointing that two grown black women, where at least one is an educator, either cannot or choose not to acknowledge it as so. Also, prisons were not designed to be reformative, are not reformative, and there is no reforming an institution built to oppress and enslave.
If the podcast is to be used as a commentary on the justice system and its treatment of black women, it is disappointing to hear what came across as slack to a prison system that's responsible for murder. There is a plethora of research that could have been cited, including from the ACLU. If you can't tell already, I am an abolitionist. And while I try to stay unpolitical, I was disappointed.
It was disappointing to see that abolition research was not explored or mentioned in this episode where a black woman was clearly failed by both our social systems and our social justice system. I hope this show continues and I hope episodes continue to get better. I binge listen to all the episodes from the beginning to Paula's in this one night. I do enjoy the show. This was just a hard episode to listen to. All right, Activist Jen, Taz here speaking.
I'm going to just say this. I appreciate your comments. I'm not one who's adverse to feedback. I'm like I am. You know what I'm saying? We're two different people. Miraz is a sensitive soul. I, for one, love feedback. My only issue was I do not feel like this was the place for your feedback because what I also am is a numbers guy and a statistics guy. And that's how we sell this podcast is through our numbers and our statistics. And what it sounds like to me is that you love this show.
You just got mad at the episode. You got mad at the episode and gave the entire show three stars. That's for messing with our statistics and dropping us a star. And that's what really bothers me. What I would like to invite you to do is join our discussion group. You don't even have to answer the questions. Just say it to me and we'll let you in. And you can then post your comments in the discussion group and we can break it down. So have some responses to your notes.
Like, I hear what you're saying, but honestly, I give you a half a point because a lot of the shit we did cover in the episode and maybe you missed it and that's fine. We're willing to discuss it because that's what the discussion group is for. And if I fucked up, I'm fine. I say the half a point that I give you is that you mentioned that we didn't call rape rape. And the only reason I'm giving it is because this is the second time we've gotten caught out on it. Right. And so I understand, you know, call rape rape so that you, you know, make sense.
The point that you're trying to make. But I feel like in our stories, the two incidents where we did not call it rape was because it legally was not rape. And we discussed how it was bullshit, but by law it was not rape. And we discussed it being bullshit and being detrimental to black women. But again, let's come to the discussion group so we can have a discussion about it. Because that's what the discussion group is for.
I just ask that you guys, like, I'm not saying that everybody has to like the show. There are some people who are not going to agree with it. You know what I'm saying? Like, the lady who didn't like our cussing, that is fully fine. That's your opinion. Somebody just told us just now that we were what? Victim blaming. For the white people. I can see that. I'll allow it.
I understand. I received your feedback. You know what I'm saying? But I'm not going to receive inaccurate feedback. And another thing for those who tell you we don't receive. For those of you who said we don't receive feedback well. I. I receive feedback just fine. Just because I don't follow the feedback that you give doesn't mean that I didn't receive it. I ran into a few other people, had a conversation with.
And it might not have aligned what you needed. But when I'm wrong, I have no problem checking that shit out. And I don't have a problem with people disliking the show. But it sounds to me that you really do like the show. And I personally feel like save this for a discussion. So we can have a discussion. Right. Because I have no problem talking this out with you. Right. If you enjoy the show...
then say you enjoyed the show. Let's get into it. If you didn't like this particular part, then there's a place for that. And maybe there is something for me to learn from this feedback, you know what I'm saying? Right. But on that platform... You know, some of y'all be talking... Y'all...
Everybody don't have to like us. You know what I'm saying? That's what I'm saying. Morale's a little more sensitive. That's fine. I don't understand why y'all don't, but okay. Everybody does not have to like us. That's fine. We're not for everybody. There's no way that somebody can be for everybody. That's fine. But if you love the show, love the show. Don't hurt us in the end because it's bigger than that. You know what I'm saying? We have no problem. But please come on to the discussion group. Let's talk it out. All right. That's the end of our reviews. I'm not doing another one.
Yes. I mean, I feel like some people think that we don't take reviews well. We don't take criticism well because of me. She's a little hothead, you guys. I am. I am. I always have been. And that's why most of the time when I get upset at what y'all niggas say, I usually send it to Taz and be like, can I cuss them out? And I literally be like, I'll say my opinion.
And then I'm done with it. Like, I don't sit with it because, honestly, it's a lot more fans out there than it is people who don't like what we do. Very much so. You know what I'm saying? And it's the fans who we're doing it for. If you don't like it, stop listening. You know what I'm saying? Don't torture yourself, you know? There's so many other podcasts. There's so many other podcasts. Well, thank you all for listening to yet another episode of Sisters Who Kill. This was our 21st episode. We legal as fuck. Faith.
Thank you so much for these drinks. Faith, girl, these drinks were it. Not one, but two hits. Okay. Okay. All right, y'all. If you want to get in contact with us, you can email us. If you want to email us just to say hi, to give comment, if you have something mean to say to us, or if you want to buy an ad space, you can email us at sisterswhokillpodcast at gmail.com. You can tweet us at sisterswhokill. It's mostly Tazzy, but sometimes it be going in because I like Twitter. I like the app.
And if you want to follow us on Instagram, it's sisterswhokillpod. If you want to email us, I mean, find us on TikTok, it's sisterswhokillpodcast. If you want to join the discussion group, make sure you answer my questions, except for Activist Chan. You might as well come on in. Anything else, friend? Talk to us. We talk back. We really do. All right. Peace. We really do. People are like, oh my God, talk back to us. I'm like, girl. I am a nobody.