Deep Dive
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And I'm Taz. And welcome back to Sisters Who Kill. Friend, we made it to the end of Black History Month. We did. Yes, we did. But that doesn't mean shit stops around here because we're rolling right into Women's History Month, which is one of my many favorite months of the year. So I thought that this case was a really good case to transition us from Black History Month into Women's History Month because when we think about women in prison and we think about everything that...
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Free money. Free money is out there. Just go get it by starting your podcast today. Streaming October 6th on Paramount+. First place I learned about death was the Pet Sematary. Dead things buried in that land would come back. There's something else. Something's wrong with Timmy. He needs time to adjust. That's not Timmy. Something's fucking driven him.
Sometimes dead is better. Pet Cemetery. Bloodlines. Rated R. Streaming only on Paramount+. Our players this week are Thomas Vigliarolo, who is the victim. Roy and Daphne Hilton, the adoptive parents. Alvin, the not really ex, just let's just call him ain't shit guy.
Adrienne, her daughter, Luis Miranda, the mastermind, Maria Teresa Talag, the accomplice, Woody George Pace, one of the codeys, Selma Pace, one of the codeys, Rita R. Peters, Donna's roommate, one of her codeys, and Donna Hilton, our murderess.
So Donna is not 100% sure about her date of birth, but she does know that she was born on the island of Jamaica to her mother who was a devout hoodoo practitioner. She never met her biological father and Donna loved her mother just as any other child would.
In Donna's book, she described her mother as having undiagnosed bipolar disorder. And one of her earliest memories is her mother throwing her up in the air. You know how you throw the little babies up and catch them and babies giggle and you throw them up again. And so Donna's mom is doing this with her as a baby. She's playing with her. And then on the third time she throws her up, she acts like she's going to catch her and pulls her hand back.
and Donna falls flat-faced on the concrete floor. And she describes, she's like, I still got a knot on my forehead from it. Like, I felt like a unicorn in school growing up with it. And she was just like, her mom would do little things like this, and she just couldn't understand. It just went from, like, this loving moment to this traumatic experience all of a sudden. She said that she could, like, see the shift in her mom's eyes. Like, you know, like, she knew when things were bad.
When Donna was seven years old, she sees her mom talking to this good looking couple, Roy and Daphne Hilton. And she sees him talking to her mom and exchanging paperwork, which, you know, she doesn't think much of it. She's seven. Her mom probably got some business to do, right?
So Daphne, a highly educated, like she's meant to educated. Okay. She's smart as hell. Like super smart. Yeah. She's psychologist and she stoops down to Donna and she asked if she wants to go to a magical place in America where kids get to have fun and eat cotton candy. She's like, you know, you want to go to Disney World?
And of course, seven-year-old Donna's like, yes, like what child doesn't want to go to Disney World? It's Disney World. Magic, I'm in. You know? So they get her ready. They get her a passport and they get her on a plane to America. And when she arrives, she's in New York. Yeah.
Yeah, so there is no Disney World in New York in case you guys didn't know. Right, we do have international listeners that may not know that Disney World is not in New York. So she is given a room in this high-rise apartment and she's told that this room would be hers unless there was company. And when she asked where she was...
Roy Hilton just says to her, you're home. The Hilton family, they had very high status. Now, Daphne was a person that was obsessed with her work. Her work
um donna says in her book that to daphne her education and status was everything to daphne like that was something that she really prided herself on her nose was always in a book she was either at a lecture teaching a lecture doing something that the scholarly smarts do daphne also demanded that excellence from donna like she would tutor donna
extra at home made her like speak different languages around the house so like if they were learning how to pour tea which was something that they had Donna do for them often like pour the tea she would say oh say it in French you know so really giving her the extra tutoring one of the things was Donna would come home from school and she would have to just wait outside in the
of the apartment inside of the apartment building just waiting to get into the house because they never gave her a key to the house like never gave her a key to get into the house so she would just be sitting there waiting because she had nothing to do after school and she wasn't really allowed to go out and play with the other kids she wasn't really allowed to go to the park and have a good time which like at seven when did you get a key to the house y'all don't have keys at your house what do you think a kid needs a key at that key to the house it depends so I had we had sisters so I was never alone
You know, I think it's different as an only child. I mean, I was an only child and I think I had a key. I feel like I always had a key, maybe after fifth grade, maybe starting middle school, I had a key. But here's the thing. My mom would be so pissed because I was also...
really bad at losing my key, which I mean, I still am now. So maybe it's just a thing, but that would piss her off because she's like, with a key to our house, it's just out and about in the street. And it's just you and me, which I guess I understand. So, but she was just constantly just waiting in the building, waiting for them to get back. Now, when she was at school,
she really didn't have a lot of friends because, I mean, she high yellow, she's got this deep Jamaican accent. Everybody's like, girl, where are you from? Like, we from New York around here. So she was really musically inclined. She actually played the clarinet. And she...
was really good at and the only reason that Daphne allowed her to do it because she was like this will increase your chances to go into an Ivy League so sure you can do music but something that Donna actually fell in love with is track and field so of course during PE she would run and she was really fast and actually really good and so the coach took interest in her coach was like you know you should try out you should you could just come on the team and Donna asked Daphne and and
at this point Daphne is also very cold she didn't really give a lot of love to Donna but like Donna was like okay I'll call you mom you know I guess so Daphne's like no why do you want to run on a track
No, that has nothing to do with higher education. That is not going to get you into Princeton and Yale and Harvard and all of the fancy schools or whatever. So Donna tells the coach, my mom, you know, mom said no. So the coach actually calls and convinces her that, you know, track scholarships are out there and Donna is talented enough. And Daphne is like, OK, so how much does it cost? You know.
Black folks, no matter, they got the money, you know that. But they was like, okay, how much it cost? And coach is like, it's all right. School's going to take care of her shoes, her uniform, whatever she needs, which I don't know. I didn't know they was giving away shoes in middle high school. You know what I'm saying? I mean, if you that good, they'll make anything happen. So the coach calls and actually convinces Daphne to let Donna run. And then Donna is like amazing. She's killing it in the track meets. She's already got like school's,
starting to look at her and she's like super young at this time she's about to go to regionals and she is representing the entire regionals and i don't remember what event did she say what event in her book
I didn't write it down. So y'all don't have to read NC. She is about to go to regionals. Her coach calls and is like, Donna calls the house and tells her, she's like, I got the flu. I can't take you to track. I can't take you to the meet tomorrow. And then Daphne and Roy are like, Oh, we not taking you. You know, we not, I don't know. That broke my heart. Like, yo, yo, you supposed to be, y'all supposed to be my parents since we here.
You want me to call you mom and dad? I heard her say that she was on track to go to the Olympics. Yeah. She's they, they were looking at her like scouts were looking at her for real and
She also got a scholarship to like a prestigious boarding school. This prestigious boarding school, like I guess you take a test after eighth. Maybe I guess we take tests all the time. You take some type of standardized test in New York. And with the standardized test, they tell you what school you go in and go into based off of your scores, which I think is weird. Like we take the test, you know, where we at.
Not so that you can group me. Whatever. That's why up north is crazy. So she takes this test and she gets a scholarship to this like really prestigious boarding school. She's like number three in the state in eighth grade. Like those are her test scores. Smart.
So Daphne is all proud because she's like, look at my child. And, you know, Daphne is with the higher ups of the smart. So when she gets this award, money starts coming in. You know, they, you know, rich folks send gifts, especially some rich niggas. They gonna send gifts, monetary gifts. Daphne tells Daphne,
Donna, I don't think that you're going to be able to compete against these girls in the boarding school. So I'm going to send you away to a friend of mine for the summer to tutor you because up until this point, Daphne's been tutoring her. The deal that we've created with them, they just had a newborn. So you're going to babysit for them for the summer. And then he's going to tutor you before we get you all ready to go to school. Donna says, okay, great. This is a wonderful thing for Donna because...
Pretty much from the time that Donna started growing titties, Roy has been raping her almost every single day. He would...
take her literally into the master bedroom closet when Daphne's not there because she's off lecturing and she's off doing all the smart things or she's reading. He was taking advantage of Donna literally every single day. Donna was already learning how to disassociate. She was already learning that pretty much from the moment that he was like, you're so beautiful. She was like, I will blank out because you're
this was like happening every single day and she tried to actually tell somebody she tried to tell the counselor and when she told the counselor at school only thing she told her counselor at school was like I'm tired of this shit like all I need is for somebody to give me a lock for my bedroom door like that's what she wanted she's like I want a lock for my bedroom door counselor calls Daphne
obviously because that's what you do Daphne gets on the phone you know Daphne's talking to the counselor's talking to Daphne and like you know black mamas do they say all right the counselor's like all right she wants to talk to you gets on the phone with Donna's like Donna how dare you make up these lies how dare you say that about your father he is a good man blah blah blah blah blah blah
ball wait till i fucking see you which is not the right response right so this this summer with this family is like okay bet and they were so nice to her the baby was cute she's finally like seeing what a family is supposed to be like she's finally seeing like she was getting to go out to eat they was having barbecues pizza party she was actually making a few friends but then their family goes away they're like oh you know we'll be back i'll take we'll take you out for pizza and but only
But mom and the baby, I guess, stay at a grandparent's house or whatever. Her tutor, the husband, comes and then just rapes her and starts doing that consistently. So she left one for another. Yes. She left one situation. At least it was she knew she was going back, but she at least temporarily left one to be in what she thought was a good situation turned bad. And then now she got to go back home. And speaking of one bad situation to the next child. OK, she.
is back home and there's this guy that lives in their building in the apartment building with his mama his name is Alvin and Alvin she's like 14 Alvin is like 20 something and
And he's like, what's wrong? Why? And you know, she's just walking around all sad. And finally she like confides out. She's like, I'm just sticking to shit. Like, you know, he always fucking break me. Like, I don't, I don't want to do this. Like I'm so I'm ready. I just need to go. And she was like, I just, I got some money. She's like, I know I got some money in there from autumn gifts from them rich folks. I'm just about to use that. She can go. He was like, well, why don't you, he was like, I'll help you. I'll help you run away. And she's like, yeah. He's like, yeah, I'll do whatever you need. So they're starting to plan. She's going to take her little, um,
our little seed money from from the rich folks and they're gonna run away together so they make the plan they go away they hit hit another city he is like all right we got you checked into the hotel room and we're gonna make sure that everything's all right for you like i just helped you run away you whatever and she's like oh great and then as soon as they lay down he's like you're so beautiful and she's like oh no
Here we fucking go again. Right. She's like, I just fucking got here, bro. Like, God damn. And this becomes a she her and Alvin. This was a thing for a while. And he would he was like angry all the time. He would threaten her.
He would hit her. He would make her crawl around whatever apartment they were at. He would, like... So this was, like, he was angry. One time when they were running out of money, they slept outside, and he was like, this is what people in love do, babe. They, like, got a job parking cars, and he was like, hey, remember, you're fucking 19, all right? Like, she's completely underage, and he's completely overage. One day she's like, um...
How we go about seeing a doctor? And he's like, what you mean? She's like, yeah, I think I'm pregnant. And he's like, what? And then he calls her a whore, hits her, rapes her again. While she was pregnant, they ended up, you know, some days he was very violent. Other days he would be very loving, you know, got a baby on the way. She ended up having her baby, Adrian, by him when she was 16 and he was like 24.
seven she tried to go back to the hiltons because you know life with a baby with his ass is really fucking hard she tries to go back to the hill they open the door they look at her daphne was like we don't want nobody embarrassing us and then they showed her the door fucking trash she's like i'm sitting there i'm looking at roy like this the least you could do motherfucker right
He probably like, eh, too young to be mine. He's like, as long as it is mine, I didn't fuck up. And, you know, he's lying to his wife and she's already a horrible person. So years go by and Donna starts to work, just going from temp agency to temp agency. She ends up getting married, not to that fuck nigga Alvin, to some basketball player. She respects his privacy. She never names him.
Things actually... Because, girl, I want to know. She said, I like to respect his privacy. I respect that. Things seem to actually start looking up in her life. She has a family, like her own family, her little baby, her man that she chose and he chose, you know.
And then her world comes crumbling down. Her husband asked for a divorce. And now she's back on her own at 20 years old. Imagine being divorced by 20. Jesus Christ. I can't even imagine being married by 20. Fuck divorced by 20. So Donna's 20 years old now. She is living with her good friend Rita and Rita's mom. She doesn't want her baby in this environment though. So Adrienne is still living with the Hiltons. But Donna's like, I'm not taking my ass back there.
she while she's staying with Rita she peeps Rita's trying to become a model or whatever Rita's like yeah I'm gonna make all this money being a model but you know first you got to have your portfolios together so you can be doing these professional shoots and Donna's like you know what that sounds like some good money I'm pretty enough I should be a model but you know upon looking how much it takes to start a portfolio she's like I need a good fifteen hundred dollars
So, she's at work, and at work she works with this girl named Maria Tlac. And she's telling her, oh, I want to be a model, but I need all this money. And Maria's like, girl, I think I can help you. Now, Donna tells her friend Rita about Marita, and Rita says, it's just something about that girl. You know what I mean? So...
Anywho, Donna's talking to Maria and she's just like, I just need to become a model. And Maria's like, my goddaddy can't help you. My goddaddy, he's always doing favors, trying to help people out. And I think he might be willing to give you the money. So Donna's like, hey, let's go for it. So,
Rita takes her to meet up with her goddaddy, Louis Miranda. And he's like, oh, tell me what you need. Okay, okay, you know, let's talk later. We'll meet again. And they meet up again. And he was like, yeah, yeah, I definitely feel I can help you out with that. We'll be in touch. They meet up again. And at this point, it's kind of like, did we need three meetups for this to happen? But third time's the charm. Louis
Lewis is like, all right, you say you need my help. I need a favor too. He says, I got this man who owes me some money. Did me wrong in a business deal a couple years ago, four years ago. And it's time he paid up on his debts. So,
What I'm going to do is I'm going to have my beautiful goddaughter go over and lure him into bed. He's going to come in, be like, ah, I caught you, and we'll tell his wife. And surely that'll make him pay up. You know, he won't want his wife to know, and that'll make him pay. And she's like... Good old-fashioned adultery. Yeah. She's like, okay. And, like, when she tells her story, she's like, this is the point. That okay was where she fucked up. Right.
I mean, because it's... There's no such thing as free money, but... Ever. What they call it in school? Tinstaffel? This man who owes him money is Thomas, or Mr. V. So Thomas is 62 years old, and...
He wasn't good at following through on his deals. And he turned out to be a bit of a scammer because he would go to people and be like, okay, you need this loan. I can get you this loan. And that's a sign of good faith. You just need to put down $5,000 or whatever the fuck amount. And, you know, we'll get you a loan in return on that investment. So basically he was like the original cash app scammer. Yeah. Give me $500. I'll flip it. Right. That's what he was doing. Yeah.
but bigger amounts, right? At this point, he is up in Chinatown showing everybody he's got like 30 different deals he could do, but you know, only two of them probably are worth shit, right? So he and his guy Nick Namit are working on this deal or whatever, and it's like for property out in Chinatown. So while he's out there, this Asian lady introduces him to a girl named Maria.
and he and maria go on a couple of dates and it's the same maria that is lewis's goddaughter right lewis he he's into real estate he owns a building in harlem um an apartment building and he's a bit of a long shark so he got tied up with thomas and he gave thomas 160 000
And Thomas was supposed to flip that shit and did it. Right. And like we said earlier, it had been several years. They made this deal in 81. It's 85 now, you know, and he hasn't seen anything on this, you know, long shot, a long shot. They're not going to let that go. Right. They want their money and they want it now. And he was known to be part of like the big, the big five. Mafia. Real awesome mafia type shit. Some real deal shit.
So Maria is going and she's like, you know, I'm going to do this favor. My goddaddy going to break me off some money and we all going to eat. She also needed a couple extra people. So she reached out, you know, and got Rita and her mama involved, too. You know, she said we can all eat out for this one. Right. She's been playing the long game. She's got Thomas checking her out or whatever. She was like, you know, why you don't come on over to my place?
So Thomas is like, hell yeah. He don't lie to his wife, told his wife he got business up in Chinatown and shit. And, you know, he really trying to get busy with Maria. He gets to Maria's apartment and shit fucking changes. Okay.
They put a bag over his head, and Maria was like, if anybody says anything, say that he's drunk. And Donna's all confused, because she was like, I thought you was going to, and I was going to, you know, was she supposed to catch it? We was just supposed to catch y'all having fucking, like... You know, she's like, what is this? And at that point, it's like, shut the fuck up and get with the program, right? Right, Maria waving a gun around, I'm going to shut the fuck up. So...
They all head on over to Selma Pace's house. Selma is a heavy thing. She said in her book that it was the most colossal woman she had ever seen. The newspaper said they guessed her at 450 pounds. But they head on over to Selma's house. Selma's husband is strange, but they still get shit together.
is like the muscle and he's you know transporting thomas and and making sure shit goes along with plan and you have to understand that selma's house is the house that you don't want to go to you ain't trying to get sent there right
Selma's house is in Lewis's building. And when he got issues, he send them down to Selma's crib and Selma and them going to handle that. Selma got three and a half inch plywood over the windows. Like she ready. She ready to get shit started. She prepped. Ain't nobody going to see shit. Like it's time to get to business. So,
Thomas gets over there. They tie him to the bed. They take off all his clothes. They're beating him. They're burning him with cigarettes. They're like, give us the fucking money. Tell us where to get the goddamn money. He's like, I can't help you. I can't help you. Please, please, please.
Now, while this was going on, like Donna wasn't actually in the house because she, when she was confiding in Maria, she was telling her like, oh yeah, I once parked cars because she did when, when she was at Alvin, she was like, yeah, I once parked cars. So I know how to drive. And you know, knowing how to drive is rare in New York, especially in like the early eighties, late seventies, early eighties. Like it's rare to be able to know how to drive. And, um,
So these are all things that Maria just happened to take into account. So when Maria is holding this gun, she's like telling Rita and Rita, mama, y'all need to stay here and just make sure he don't die. Like do whatever the fuck. And then Donna was always out of the apartment and they were making her drive them around and go from this rental car to that rental car and making Donna be on their chauffeur basically. So one day Donna comes back after they done chauffeured around and switched cars and all that mafia shit.
And she's looking at him. He got a bag over his head. He's gagged. She's like, is he eight today? And Maria's sitting there like, no. No, he has not. And then she's like, have we given him any water? And she said, like, Rita, Rita, Mama, like, they were there, but they wouldn't even ask what happened because, you know, like, at the end of the day, they all just sitting there traumatized, too. So they didn't even, like, talk about their day. They don't or whatever. So Donna, she, like, tells this story.
part of the story where he's still blindfolded and she like misses Kool-Aid takes his ball gag out and tries to like give him something to drink and you know like even though you blind or you're not blind but even though you you can't see you can tell somebody in there is different like if it's a difference presence he's like who are you he's like oh you're you're not like the rest of them he's like please help me please help me and then she said he asked for a cigarette because you know niggas love they cigarettes back in the late 70s early 80s and she's like she helped him to the bathroom and
And that whole time, like he's blindfolded and he's like, please help me. You're different from the rest of them. And she was just like, how can I help you? And I can't help myself. And she like, and of course, Maria's there with the gun. She's like, tie his ass back up. So she does. She goes to sleep. And then the next morning, Rita's like, bitch, wake up, wake up. He is not breathing.
And she's like, what? Everybody's like, he is not breathing. He is dead. He is not breathing. They go and they check him. She's like, and then Donna starts freaking out. She's like, oh, my God. No, no, no. He has to be. He has to be. Y'all are tripping. He has to be. Maria's on the phone with God, Daddy, trying to get, you know, the next play in order. And then Donna's freaking out. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And then Woody slaps the shit out of Donna. Get your ass together. Now, while Thomas was still alive.
the gang had made ransom tapes, right? Or had him make ransom tapes. Maria, Woody, and Donna, they head out, Donna being the driver, Woody the muscle, and Maria is delivering the shit. They drive out to meet Mr. Nick Namit at his office, right? And
And they give him this, Marie hands him this package and inside the package, there's two cassette tapes and photos of Thomas bound and gagged, right? With cigarette burns and shit all over his body. Like he looks fucking bad, right? So you look in the package and there's two cassette tapes. One is for Nick Namit and it says...
You've got to help me. I'm in bad with the Orientals. We've got to get their money. Now, the newspapers vary. One newspaper started off at $430,000, went up to $439,000. I've seen as high as $464,000, but they was asking for damn near half a million ransom, right? So Mick's confused. He's like, I don't even know this man like that. You're talking about business partners. We are dead.
Trying to do this deal. But that's not how this works. I don't work with him. And the second tape is to his wife. Thomas' wife. And it's like, baby, I'm in bad with the Oriennals. You've got to work with Nick and give him whatever he needs to get this money so that you can save my fucking life. So Nick's like, yeah, I don't know what this is about. He hands it straight over to the police. And the police are like,
Okay, we need to find a connection here. We need to find a connection here. So after receiving the tapes, Nick gets a call from a payphone.
Now on this payphone is Woody, but Woody has disguised his voice to sound like an Asian man. And he's like, hey, Nick, you need to give me these rent. You need to give me this ransom money or we're going to kill your friend Thomas over here. And I guess Nick is like giving him like, I don't I don't know what the fuck you want me to do. And a nigga says that, you know, he was an Asian because who the fuck talks about themselves like this? He says, I might be Oriental, but I'm not stupid.
Sir, he was a nigga and stupid. How you gonna be racist towards Asians and pretend to be an Asian? At the same time. You can't do both in the same sentence, right? Pick one. Revert later. Dumbass. Dumbass.
So the cops are like, okay, he's in bed with the Asians. We have to find a link with some Asian people. So they go to Thomas's office and they're rifling through his stuff and they're like, Asian person, Asian person, got to find an Asian person. They find this contact. Now remember, it was an Asian woman who introduced Maria to Thomas.
They find her information. They're like, what do you know about Thomas? She was like, not too much. But I know my homegirl Maria just asked me to introduce her to him a couple of weeks ago. So they was like, OK, Maria, let's go check it out. They go to Maria's apartment and there is signs that Maria has not been there for days. There is a message on the answering machine from the car rental place that they are using.
Again, newspapers vary. She either owed some money or she needed to pick up a refund or she was swapping out her new car. She was doing something, but she needed to return to the car rental place for it to happen. So they're like, okay, that's where we're going to go. We're going to the car rental place. They call the car rental place. They're like, hey, have you seen Maria? They're like, no, we haven't heard from her in a couple of days. They're like, well, you tell as soon as you hear something. A couple of days go by, car rental place calls the cops. Hey.
we fight for maria she's coming in this afternoon cops are like perfect we're gonna catch her we're gonna figure out what the fuck's going on right so that afternoon maria walks into the car in a place cops stop right there like girl you under arrest it's over you need to tell us what's happening they go outside to the car and of course they find donna in a driver's seat and they also find woody in the car and four boulders right so
The cops take the three in and Donna has had enough. She's like, listen, I will tell you everything. We have kidnapped this man. I didn't know this was happening. I really didn't want nothing to do with it. The boat is in the car so we can drown him in the lake. We're going to put it in. We stuffed him in the trunk. We didn't do anything. Donna did not do anything. Right, right, right, right, right. Okay. Let me rephrase this.
The voters are in the car because they're going to stuff him in a trunk and put him down the river or the lake or wherever the fuck body of water she's near. She's like, they've been torturing him. It's just all bad. So the cops are like, one important question. Is he alive? And Maria's still in shock. She had the shit slapped out of her when she started freaking over finding out he's dead. And she like hasn't... Fuck, I said Maria. So...
They're like, we just have one last important question. Is he alive? And Donna is still in shock. Remember, Woody just slapped the shit out of her for freaking out when they said that Thomas was dead. But she's like, I guess in her head, not wanting to wrap her mind around the fact that he is dead. So when they ask if she's still alive, she's like, yeah, I guess out of hope or whatever. Right. And so they're like, OK, where can we find him?
And she's like, they at Selma's house. Go to Selma's house, man. So they pull up on Selma's house. Thomas is not alive. In fact, evidence shows that Thomas had been dead by the time the ransom letters were delivered.
He had no food in his stomach or his bowels. Cigarette burns all around him. His sternum was cracked. His nose was broken. He had been very badly beaten. He even had blood inside of his bowels showing evidence that he was sodomized. Like they put this man through it. Okay. So, okay. So of course everybody left at the house is immediately arrested and
and, you know, things get ready to go to trial. Now, before the trial comes out, articles get to be written, and they find out, you know, that Thomas is, like, I don't think before the crime happened, they knew how bad Thomas was, but they was like, this nigga is a scammer. He's scamming niggas in Idaho. He's scamming people in California, and it seems like he had, like,
you know, relocated and just kept moving his little thing on. But there was just like several people where he was just like, give me $500 and I'll flip it. Right. People were coming out being mad. Yeah. He was actually being investigated by the FBI. Yeah.
But the issue was the FBI couldn't find any state to indict him. It was like, it's not enough money. It's not worth it, which is crazy that you're going to tell me this nigga scamming me. I don't care if it was $500. He fucking scammed me on my money. You're going to tell me it's not worth it? My troubles aren't worth it? Get out of here. That's wild. He probably knew the law and knew what amount of money to play and what not to play with so that he could just slide right under the radar.
If he knew how to play that game, I don't think he should have ever been in debt to a loan shark in the first place. Yeah. Yeah, it was definitely kind of like, this man isn't all that we thought he was. Like, he wasn't this upstanding... He wasn't this, like, upstanding citizen or whatever. Like, he had his own dealings, and it was kind of clear how he got tied up in this mess in the first place. Yeah, but I mean, that's...
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So the trial comes and everybody is being tried together except for Selma. Selma decided to plead guilty and she ended up receiving five to 15 years. The rest of them decided to... Prosecution was basically arguing that
Everybody participated in this crime equally. They all were just as aware. They all planned this together and they all should be punished the same. They were all held without bail, partially because both of the Paces had been charged with kidnapping before, but pled to a lesser charge. So that means Woody and Selma, they had been charged with kidnapping before. This is not their first go around. Pace, uh,
Selma also had an ongoing relationship with Lewis as we talked about, you know, if you had to go down to Selma House, it was a problem. And the courts figured that was true or found out that that was true. Okay, so they were all tried together. However, they all had separate lawyers. Now with Donna, she had a lawyer at first that kind of gave a fuck. And then, you know, public defenders, it just kind of snowballed to people that really didn't
didn't have the time of day or didn't think that their case was going to get anywhere and here's the thing about Donna's case in particular there was a lot of testifying there was a lot of DNA evidence there was of course photo evidence the jury got to see it all but with Donna she was the only person whose DNA did not show up at the scene of the crime
everyone's DNA was there. Rita, Maria forced Rita to stay there. And so she was always constantly at the apartment, but Maria and Louis, they were constantly on the road and they had Donna in the cars with them. So Donna really only was there to sleep at night. Somehow her DNA did not show up anywhere. Yeah.
The only real reason, the only really thing that they had against her was the fact that, you know, she did know about it. And it honestly, if she would have lied and said that she didn't know shit at all, she probably would have had a chance of getting off because there was no DNA connecting her to it. But because she told the truth and told them what was happening, that's how she ended up getting caught. And also because that first time when she was in shock and she didn't want to believe that Thomas was dead, that
That was seen as a lie to, you know, the police, the higher ups. So that was also taken against her. I can't believe the police can lie to me, but I can't lie to the police. Girl, girl, like, I remember my first time lying to the police when I was trying to lie about my age. Like, and that police officer had the nerve to tell me that Pink Pony was the best strip club in Atlanta. Like, girl, you lying to me right now. It's a long story. Ha ha ha!
It's a long story. So actually, when the jury comes in and they ask the judge questions, because if the jury's not clear about a charge or the particulars about anything in the court system, they can come back in during deliberation to ask as many questions as they need to come with a unanimous decision. Now, for Donna in particular, they came in like...
They came in. They asked about some clarifications on kidnapping. They left. They came in. They asked about some clarifications with murder. They left. They came in. They asked for another piece of clarification. They left. They come in. The judge is like, do you have your decision? And Donna says she looked at the woman that
came in like there was you know the person in charge of the jury the spokesperson the other four person and she was like her face just like wouldn't look at me she was like i felt like there was hope in her eyes every single time but on every single charge so so for the charges of felony kidnapping and felony murder she was given 25 years to life so shortly after receiving her sentencing um
Woody and some others are like, actually, the cops beat us. There was like there was a lieutenant, two different lieutenants and three officers, and they all abused us. And the sergeant or whoever's higher comes in and he's like, listen, that's impossible.
Because the incident that you're talking about, there must have been 25 officers at the scene. And there's no way that these officers would beat you with that many other officers around. Which is like, is that the case that you're making? That niggas won't act up in front of they niggas? Come on now. Y'all all know some nigga who did some ain't shit ass shit.
But that's your bro, and what you want him to do, that's your bro. That's him. That ain't got nothing to do with me. You are the company you keep, dumbasses. You know, that's why they say you're mean. That didn't really get them anywhere because it's 85. Nobody really cares. And Donna was shipped off to Bedford Prison. Yep, she was in jail at Rikers.
which y'all know Rikers is a horrid place to be, but then she served her time in prison at Bedford. So while in Bedford, she definitely decided to make the most out of her life. She wouldn't when she was young. She was 20. She had shit to do, you know? She had a life to live, and she was going to be in prison for it, so I guess she decided to make the most of it. She was part of this therapeutic writing program, right?
Uh, she got an education. Yeah. Yeah. She got like two master's degrees. Yeah. That girl, she put the work in. She started a program, um, for people with AIDS. Mara, you want to tell that story? Yeah. So she tells this really broke a real nigga's heart, uh, story in her book because she went to jail in the early eighties and, you know, that was the start of the AIDS epidemic. Um,
Let me cut you off real quick. In researching this, I was looking at these newspaper articles and one right above it was like, heterosexuals can get AIDS. Yeah, like this is the time when nobody knew anything about. It is fresh. Yeah, and also it's New York. So like she was saying that like every month about four girls would just
They'd go to sleep and they would not wake up. And all she was told was like, it's a disease. It's deadly. That's all she knew. So there's this woman that was sick and like she was, she was,
she was frail as fuck because you know that takes over your entire immune system like it it shuts you down she's laying in her cell and everybody is she donna like ain't nobody gonna help her ain't nobody gonna help get her up and everybody's like we ain't going in there because they don't know they think it's airborne they're like we ain't going in there like not at all so it's this wonderful story of like donna kind of like helping her and she says that she's like
I saw her laying there. She was like, and then I just saw Mr. V and how I could have done something, but I didn't. And that's the thing. Throughout the story, she's consistent. I feel like that's consistent. I could have done something. I should have done something, but I didn't. But okay, you didn't. And that's the mistake you're going to have to deal with. But what are you going to do now? What are you going to do now in another... When you're faced with that same obstacle again. So she just tells the story about this girl and she...
helped her out, you know, uh, help feed her, help take her to the yard so she could actually like get some fresh air and hear people playing the guitar and shit. And she ended up passing away. And from there they started like an AIDS awareness program because she was home girls with, oh fuck, now I forgot the girl name. She was home girls with Judith Clark, which, okay, if y'all know the Brinks, the Brinks, um, truck robbery with the, um,
of the time. Like, Judith Clark, she was Jewish, but...
She was the getaway driver. And everybody from the Brinks car robbery is out of prison except for Dr. Motulushakur. But we can have that conversation another time. But everybody needs to look at why that is some bullshit. Anyways, Judith Clark was like her homegirl in there. You know Judith Clark. She a white woman, but she a revolutionary. You know what I'm saying? And so they started the AIDS awareness program together. And then...
she became really close with the, with a nun that would come in often. And there's none that would come in often. That was, she was like, that was my mama for real. They started like a hospice service inside of the prison so that the women, cause they didn't know nothing about AIDS. Like it's,
uh there was a story of like donna had to punch this bitch in the face and a bitch bit her and medic was like she we we don't know she might have she got it so we're gonna give you a tetanus shot i don't know what tetanus got to do with aids but but they do what the fuck exactly but they just didn't fucking know and so they started all these programming they were able to actually get some legislation legislation pushed to
help the women that were in prison because one of the things that everybody was noticing was like damn all of us have been sitting around and donna was like i thought my background was bad like y'all remember the top of the story she was like i'm sitting to listen some of these girls and they are like worse off than i am like they never had a chance in life like what is and now this is the only time that they've learned how to sit down and and learn something and not just hustle for their next meal type shit and so she she started noticing that and that's why she started a lot of the programming that was in the prison
Of course, she also went to school. But, you know, one thing that was really missing in her life was her daughter. She loved her daughter. And her daughter was now living with Alvin full time because Alvin, bitch ass, fought for custody or whatever. And finally, through like the nun, Sister Mary, that's her mama or whatever. That's what she... She still called that woman her mama. So now that's her real mama. Why he a bitch ass for fighting for custody? Because he ain't shit. He...
I'll tell you why he a bitch ass because Adrian comes and she is so sad. She wants to see her mama or whatever. He says that he wants, he doesn't want her to have custody. The judge says that you must bring her for custody. And after that, um,
Donna didn't hear shit from Adrian for a long time. Donna reaches out to one of her old managers and was just like, hey, I haven't. Can you just look around, see what's going on? Turns out finds Adrian. Her friend finds Adrian on the street, head full of lice, looking for her next meal. So yeah, Alvin is a bitch ass nigga. Not this black girl got lice. Yes. That means her hair ain't been greased. That means she been living on the street. That means she been living in squalor.
So she ends up getting her daughter. She gets up this program or whatever with her mama, sister Mary, whatever, to have Adrian stay a summer at the, like with a host family really close so that she could come visit the prison every day. And she was like, this is the first time. Like, because one of the things is like when women go to prison, like the whole family suffers. Like this is a woman, like this is the matriarch of a family. I mean, yeah.
We talk about so many mamas going into prison. I just think about, like, Laquita and...
All her kids are suffering now because she's in prison. But anyway, she's like, this is the first time my baby, like, that she knows that I love her and I know that she loves me and we're actually really, really close. And she said that, you know, Alvin is married now and got new kids. And when they're having dinner, Alvin makes her, like, sit in the corner and watch the whole family eat. Mm-hmm.
I don't know why you fight to keep a kid and then mistreat them. I don't get that. You know, so one day she gets a call and they're like, Adrian is missing. And she's like, what the fuck? And, you know, like she in prison, she can't do nothing. Her baby is missing. And she's like, Adrian, they like Adrian's mission. She don't know what to do. She can't do nothing. She's calling around. Niggas is like, we don't we don't know where she is. All of a sudden, Adrian shows up at the prison.
Turns out, Adrian is in tears and she's like, oh no. Alvin, keep up y'all. So Alvin's new wife slash baby mama, her sister's boyfriend was raping Adrian. So now Donna is like in prison. She can't do nothing. She can't go beat this nigga ass. The only thing that she can do is reach out to these new resources that she got because, you know, she's been really making money.
Connections. You know, really connections in a good way. She's reaching out to all these resources trying to make sure that there's a case, trying to file a case against this nigga. Talking to her daughter every single day, a CO tries to run up on her. CO tries to run up on her. She tries to tell somebody about the CO trying to touch her inappropriately. Guess what? COs come in the middle of her night, pans her down, takes advantage of her, and throws her in the box. Talking about...
Talking about she assaulted an officer because you know that shit was a lie. So it used to be that you weren't able to get out any earlier than your minimum sentence. You know, you had to at least do the minimum bid. And they were writing and petitioning to, you know, for good behavior. Can we please get out earlier? And she was the first person to be considered for early release before her minimum sentence was up.
She, due to all her letters with the superintendents, the nun, everybody was writing on her behalf. The whole prison community was behind her, you know, just trying to say how far she's come, how much work she's put into others, the community service that she's done in the prison alone, the outreach that she's done outside, you know, just all of this stuff.
And all the parole board wanted to focus on were the crimes that she committed. In fact, when she left, they was like, fuck getting out early. We're going to give you two more years because that shit was just heinous. And it was like...
When they tell you how that prison system is broken, they mean that shit, boy. It's broken. Like, she said that they, like, ignored everything. Like, if you read her book, she's got quoted of what some of the letters of recommendation from everybody says. And all they did. And I get it. Like, you know, a crime is a crime. But you have to look at the reason that we have prisons is for the hope of rehab. Or it should be.
You're supposed to, for the hope of rehabilitation. And she got two master's degrees plus became an ordained minister.
She did all of this work. I feel like sometimes you have that shit has to be taken into consideration. Like that is what the prisons are supposed to be doing. And like what in New York would be? They don't think like this if she's doing so well. Isn't this the perfect political story to like push the agenda that prison is working for?
you know but but they don't want it to work that people can get out of prison and out of prison early and prison gets paid on the amount of bodies that are in there so no it's not they really didn't even win much because the her getting out early was only going to be six months early because that is what her getting out early to other people get out early and they get paid on the amount of bodies in that prison it that is the only female maximum security prison in the state of new york
They've got enough. Frankly, they've got enough fucking bodies. Mm-hmm. But there's still mass incarceration. It's greed. It's greed. It's greed. You do not care about people being better. You do not care about the shots that... You don't care about people trying to make the world a better place. Like... Let me move closer. So, after 27 years, Donna is released from prison. And...
Her activism work does not stop there. She continues to hustle for herself and for others. She wrote a book. Honestly, y'all could just go see her interview on The Breakfast Club. Like, she everywhere. She everywhere. She, um, Kamala Harris got some flack. She put her on some, what did she put her from? It was like the women's, um, we are the people women's thing thing.
They were like, you know, everybody was getting on Kamala because they said she's tough on crime and shit like that. And so, you know, this was her person who she brought in to be like, you know, I believe in reform. And they was like, you brought a murderer? But I mean, is that not the biggest reform story? Exactly. Like, but also Donna also commits her life to helping people that are,
making that transition from prison back into the real world. And she works a lot with women that are victims of sexual trauma or any type of trauma, childhood trauma. Family, domestic trauma. But also she got called to work with men that are transitioning that have a history of sexual offenses. And so that is like extremely important.
First of all, at first it was extremely triggering. What do you mean? But I guess she's doing that work for men as well. And some of them, I think some of them actually... Some of them, you find out that they're false charges. Some of them, you find out that their charges were like...
the nigga was 18 and his girlfriend was 17 type shit. Sometimes you, she's dealing with people that actually did commit these offenses and that dedication of feeling that somebody can and has the ability to change their course because they, um, because they dealt with trauma in their past and actually having the resources. Cause when you're in prison, ideally, I don't know how to say this. Cause ideally you wouldn't be in prison at all.
But when you need these resources, A, they should be readily available, especially for lower income folks, but they're not. And so the first time that some people are getting access to mental health resources, sometimes that people are getting access to services.
that their meal is coming without having to hustle for it or anything is in prison. And you know how many niggas be like, it's hard out here. Let me just catch a charge. I can go to jail. I need this surgery. Let me get locked up so I can get this work done. It's hard.
literally cannot afford life and rather be in prison so they can get shit done because they can't out here. Oh, I forgot one of the other things that she did while she was in prison. She worked with dogs in prison. Like, you know how they be having the dog programs in prison to help train the dogs, the therapeutic dogs, or to train the dogs to sniff out bombs and stuff. They do a lot of those in the prisons. So that was something else that she did. I'd be all over that shit.
Yeah. So, I mean, Donna Hilton is very much alive, very much well, very much still doing her activism work. Um,
one of the big things is like I mean like she'll do a wonderful interview I see some wonderful interviews of her on Facebook I mean on YouTube and in the comments it's like murderer and it's like but one of the things she said in her book like she's always going it's crazy because you're always going to be judged about that one mistake and it hurt by the worst thing you did and the crazy thing for her is like the worst thing that I did came out of pure fear and
I just, I think, I think the biggest takeaways from Donna is one, one, she has always been remorseful. Like you said, she does plenty of interviews. I like the one she did with Ricky Day on Nothing to Lose podcast. But she's, she's so remorseful of the story. She says even then it was just fear, like you said. Two, she's been working on her redemption ever since.
right and then three she she wasn't as involved as they made her out to be right and I guess that's the only thing you can't hope for you know like I can't bring back this life but now you have to actively become better like you actively have to work to make the world a better place because you keep and I think she's she's working towards that every single day like
She's everywhere trying to get all these things taken care of. Even shit that ain't got nothing to do with her, like the AIDS situation. It's just compassion. All right, y'all. It is time for... I didn't do it, but if I did, this is how I would have got away with it. I ain't do it, but if I did, I would have listened to my friend Rita because apparently Rita was a real ass bitch telling you not to fuck with this girl. Sometimes when your friends just know that something's off with a bitch, you got to listen to them. I ain't do it, but if I did...
I don't know. I think it would have been sketched to me. That's the thing. Having a good parent that's willing to guide you makes all the difference. Because my mama been drilling me ain't nothing in life free. And everybody wants something for something, you know. Every time something sounds good. And what they want for that. And what you got to do. You know what I mean? That ain't worth that. She see through the bullshit a mile away. And a good guided mama would have pointed that out to you.
And told you don't get into that shit. That's what I'm saying. I wish she just had. It's so important to get that foundation together because people, when you have that foundation, it's so easy to assume, oh, that's common sense. Oh, that's obviously not a good situation. Somebody trained you to think like that. You know what I'm saying? Somebody raised you to know better.
And when you're in them struggling times, it's just like, shit, sound good. Got to get out of here. Listen, taking a picture of this man cheating on his wife don't sound too bad, you know? Yeah, especially when you just simply don't know about it. Exactly. But I don't know. If I didn't do it, I just trying to back out as soon as shit did. I felt like she knew her stomach shit ain't feel right.
Yeah, I mean, like even the meeting up and him being like, I'll help you or talking on the phone. I'll help you meet it up. I'll help you come again. I'll help you. All right, this is what you got to do. Like, I don't know if that's a business tactic or just like a mafia tactic or you asking me and saying that you're gonna help me three times and she's kept coming back. I think it built that like anticipation. I'm going to help you in that anticipation. Oh, I oh, he's serious. I need him. Yeah, exactly. And
I feel like that in her gut, she knew that it was wrong. But sometimes people really don't, they don't know how to listen to their gut. Because, I mean, she's had so many people let her down. She don't trust shit. She don't know right from wrong. She don't trust shit. Yeah. I don't know. She, she, and then they probably, she stayed in the car most of the time. She should have blinked twice. Blink hard if you need help.
I don't know. She just... She was in a shitty situation, man. She was constantly in a shitty situation. She was constantly searching for help and not getting it. Just constantly let down. It's just...
It was her story to have. This was the life she was meant to have at this point. I think everything happens. I hate to say that. It sounds cliche. Everything happens for a reason. She was meant to come out on this other side. I think that the work that she's doing is really beneficial. It takes a lot of bravery to put yourself out there like that. Especially after coming out of prison. Everything she does has backlash. Fighting these rumors every time. Everything that she puts her hand on, there's some type of
backlash. Really, she is just active. Yeah, when she is actively working to try to make the world... And at this point, it's not even about me anymore. Like, I'm out. I've done my time. I've served my time. Now I'm trying to give back to everybody else, and y'all still won't let me do that because y'all...
everybody else y'all don't know what it's like to to not have nothing and be in the situation that's shitty and and that shitty situation took a life and now I'm trying to help impact like people can't realize that they just see like murder or she's bad I get it like it's closed mind it's closed minded but like I do get it like I get why people would say that and it was a heinous crime but the point is to become better and she's she's I feel like she's actively still paying her debt to society I mean
You have to. And she talks a lot about forgiveness. And, like, you can forgive others, but it's how hard it is to forgive yourself. Like, she's still struggling to forgive herself for even being caught up in that situation. And that's difficult. Girl, she said she was having nightmares of Selma's face. Of Selma's face? Yeah. She said she was having nightmares and in her nightmares she would see Selma's face. I said, ooh, that's scary. I bet.
Yeah, Selma put the hammer down. Go see about Selma. Well, she got out. I was going to say parole or no parole, but she got out. I'd have paroled her ass early. I would have gave her a little six months early, especially if she has a record like that of doing good. Like, I'm not going to do it for just no anybody. But I'd have did it for her. You got two master's degrees.
an ordained minister and you did all this programming and you got all these letters recommendations yeah this this show is over no we gotta do the review oh that part yeah yeah i'm pulling up my review now this one's from light bright remember when that was your twitter name wow we did not have to go there
Light Bright says, "When I say I'm a true crime enthusiast, one of my friends recommend this to me and I must say it's so dope to hear stories from females that look like me."
I have been trying to slow down my binge watching since I keep hearing there will only be one episode a week. LOL. Keep on keeping on and setting goals for our Black queens to achieve. Thanks, girl. Thanks. This one was DM'd to us on Twitter from Shay Shakur. Said, hey, sisters. Okay, I just want to say I was never into true crime. I even made fun of how obsessed with true crime my mom was. But one day I stumbled across your podcast, which...
I don't know how because I was not even into podcasts and I was stuck. I went all the way back to the first episode. And of course, my favorite is Mr. Core Honey from the Tupac poem you read to all the songs we sung together. And don't get me started on the stories. I was in love. I listened to your podcast loud and loud and at work. And I'll have everybody asking, what's that? That's how into it I am. I wish I could do these every day. Boy, oh boy. And I'm from Florida, boy.
Boy, y'all do us dirty. I absolutely love y'all. Thank you for being who y'all are. Yeah, fuck Florida. Y'all, I don't know if y'all seeing this on Spotify, but we ask y'all little questions and you can answer them. Okay, that's all I have to say about that. I think we're done here. Is there anything else that you... Are you ready for me to wrap this thing up?
all right y'all this is actually the end of the show if you want to leave us a voicemail saying i ain't do it but if i did this is how i would have got away with it for any of the episodes you can go over to anchor.fm and submit that to us if you're a little long-winded because they only give you a little bit of time you can email it to us at sisters who kill podcast at gmail.com also you can hit us up at sisters who kill podcast at gmail.com if you're interested in ad space or
want to give us a case recommendation or if you just want to say hi you can follow us on twitter at sisters who kill on instagram at sisters who kill pod on twitter at sisters who kill podcast and you can join the discussion group as long as you answer the questions for range you got anything else talk to us we tell back bye