Dorothy Williams
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Okay, when you think of a serial killer, what do you think of? Ted Bundy, Ed Kemper, Israel Keys. Usually creepy-looking white men, right? Well, this week's Murderess puts a whole new spin on serial killer. ♪♪

So, our players this week are Lonnie Laws, our 79-year-old victim. Cesar Duell, our 64-year-old victim. Mary Harris, our 97-year-old victim. And Dorothy Williams, our murderess.

Dorothy Williams was born December 24th, 1952 in Chicago, Illinois. Illinois, not Illinois. So sorry we said it with an S in one of our previous episodes. We got like five people to call us out on that. Chicago, Illinois, to her mother, Annie Pearl Williams. Her father was absent her entire life, so we don't even know his name. But she did have two siblings, her brother John and her sister Peggy. Dorothy had a pretty...

hard upcoming, especially school-wise. She had to do the second grade two times. She was 11 years old when she was in the fourth grade, and she also had to do fifth grade twice.

She was expelled from the Woodson School in 1964. And after she got pregnant with her daughter, Tarika, she was expelled from a school that was specifically designed for pregnant girls. After she got expelled from that school, she officially dropped out. And at the age of 14, she was a mother and addicted to crack cocaine and heroin. I can't imagine doing any drugs at the age of 14. I was just like rolling up.

tree papers literally notebook paper yana was just telling me about y'all rolling up notebook paper downstairs roll up notebook paper and like that shit but no i could not imagine i can't either unless being addicted see them hard drugs they start to fuck with your teeth and i gotta think about my teeth i like my smile i do anyways when she was 17 she gave birth to her son terrence now like

Like we said, she dropped out of school really early, but here's the thing. She didn't even know how to read nor write. She never had a job. She didn't even know her social security number. Her sister Peggy helped her with pretty much everything that involved reading and writing, which is...

literally everything until Peggy unfortunately died in 1988 when Dorothy was 36 years old. So imagine being also 36 and so dependent on your sister. It probably didn't bother her. So Miss Dorothy was developing quite a bit of a record. In May 1973, she was arrested for

They say causing a disturbance, but while she's getting arrested, like she's really fighting it and she is punching and kicking the cops and they arrest her from Victor and they find her for resisting arrest, which I'm surprised that's all she got charged with. So then just five months later, she has this incident with this woman named Emma Lipsey, right?

So I don't know what the hell she was getting into it about. But Emma says this woman done knocked her upside the face with an 18-inch milk cart.

And knocked out two of her teeth. And broke two of her teeth. I'm telling you, I really have a thing about my teeth. Like, I have anxiety about my teeth falling out. It's really a thing. So I'm watching A Thousand Pound Sisters and Tammy is missing a tooth. If y'all watch A Thousand Pound Sisters. Anyways, finally she told how she lost a tooth. And I thought it was something to do with like a medical thing or something like that. And she was like, no. In like third grade, she was walking in the cafeteria, tripped, fell, bust her face.

in the middle of the cafeteria, knocked her tooth out, and they grew up poor, and her mother could never afford to get her a new tooth. Oh, that's what I'm afraid of. And she was like, I was always overweight, and now I have a lost tooth in the third grade. You know, that shit follows you. I would have been pissed, to say the least. Yes. Because don't mess up the moneymaker. Your broke ass can't afford to fix it. So...

Then in 1975, she was arrested for delivering possession of weed. She had 18 months probation and got a $200 fine. Okay, so like 10, 11 years later, she started spending a lot of time down at the Chicago Housing Authority. This housing authority was specifically for elderly people, right? So like an old folk home. And she would panhandle around here.

You know, she was selling anything that you needed. You know, she run your errands. She asked for a little glass of water.

He might even have a little sex with you for the right price. Do something strange for a little piece of change. You know what I'm saying? She was the only fans before OnlyFans. You know what I mean? I feel like every little project has that person. All you have to do is pay that nigga a little case of beer, maybe two tall boys. Listen, they will have your house sparkling. So she was that panhandler around these elderly homes. So...

There was this guy living in there, Mr. Jasper Irving, right? So on January 11th, 1986, there was this guy in the elderly home, Mr. Jasper Irving. Jasper was 71 years old, and he used a walker to get around, right? Real feeble man, right? So she knocks on his door, and she's like, hey, man, give me some money to get some beer. And he gives her $2. And she's like, this ain't enough.

So he do like smoking mama. He said, make it enough. And she made it enough. She started roughing him up or whatever and took whatever money he had left in his pocket. And she left. He called the cops and they brought her in a week later. He identified her. She was arrested. She got out on bond, but she never quite showed for court. What can Jasper do?

But this was like the beginning of the documentation of Dorothy's con ways. You know what I mean? Right. She had been going at it for a while, but now she's getting a little caught up. Right. So, I mean, what could she do? The streets of Chicago were hard. Yeah, the streets of Chicago were extremely hard, especially in the 80s. They were known for violence in the community and the elderly were not exempt from being victims.

victims. OK, the senior citizen division of the Chicago Housing Authority was getting hit with robberies left and right. OK, a resident told the Chicago Tribune in 1987, he said every third of the month

Somebody gets robbed. It never fails. He said they get robbed on the elevator or they get robbed coming from the currency exchange because that's where they cash a social security check. So the third one, a social security check hit. Somebody is getting hit. OK, this Chicago Tribune article came out right after a resident 79 year old Lonnie Laws was found in his apartment dead.

with his own belt tied around his neck. The police come, they investigate, and the only thing left was some fingerprints, but they really had nothing else. The police, of course, took the fingerprints in hoping that they'll find somebody to compare them with. His ex-wife is who found him dead and said that he was quiet and he kept to himself mostly. And this really shook the residents, especially since the case started turning ice cold.

So this is the next year, December of 1988. And the body of 64 year old Cesar Zorrell was found in his apartment so badly decomposed. They said that it was so bad that when the police arrived, they had to call out, make a call. And they were like, hey, y'all need to get us some air tanks or something because the smell was just that bad. I've never smelled decomposing body, but they say like once you smell it, you'll never forget it and you'll know it when you smell it again. Yeah.

But once again, so the house was ransacked. There was no money and just a couple of fingerprints left. So once again, they take the fingerprints and they're on their merry way. Then the next year in 1989, but it was in July of 1989, Miss Mary Harris was found in her apartment by her daughter with her pink scarf tied around her neck, dead by strangulation. When her daughter looked around and looked through the house, she noticed that, of course, the money was gone.

It was ransacked. But she also noticed that the stereo system that she just purchased for her mother was also missing. Again, fingerprints were found. And this murder is also similar to the others because they could tell in all three that there was no sign of forced entry. You know, no door kicked in, no lock picked, no window broken or anything like that. But for this one, the neighbor of Mary said, he was like, look, I saw somebody leave her apartment. Woo!

What a box. Hmm. Who could that be? Again, no one could find anything about the case as of yet. So on April 4th, 1989, she robbed one Miss Mary Foster. And remember back when we talked about her arrest, her being arrested for robbing Jasper Irving and getting out on the same day, exactly three years later, she goes back to Jasper Irving's house apartment and she tells him that she's checking on a gas leak.

And he cracks the door open. Because, you know, he just been robbed. So he cracks the door open. And as soon as he cracks the door open, she pushes her way through. She pushes him on the floor. She's beating him with a stick so hard that it fractures his skull. She's, like, dragging him around the apartment like crazy.

I don't know what I'm gonna do with you I don't know what I'm gonna do with you that just it reminds me of like getting in trouble by your mom she's just like I don't know what the fuck I'm gonna do with you like I don't know how the how I'm gonna fucking kill you and get away with it like I don't fucking know and so she's like I'm just gonna fucking rob him and he's like look I got 260 dollars and that's all I got on me that's all the cash I got on me and she's like tell me where it is and I'm gonna get it she grabs the cash

She grabs his keys to his apartment and then she leaves. She doesn't kill him. And once again, Jasper calls the police. She's arrested. He identifies her. She's bonded out. A court date is set. And once again, she never made it to court. Maybe shit like that. I have niggas be like, fuck the cop.

why am I calling the cops right every time I come here I'm finding this girl bringing her to you y'all arrest her and just let her go for her to come and terrorize me again we were listening to this one podcast about uh Dorothy and one of the hosts is white one is black one is white and the white host was like oh yeah my brother does that all the time like he gets arrested he bonds out he doesn't go to court he gets arrested he bonds out he doesn't go to court and I'm like wow that's some real white folk shit but I guess Dorothy is ahead of her time I guess

I mean, I think niggas get away with it all the time. You think so? I'm sure they do. Because there's just certain space in the jail and they save that space for certain things. And so...

Like, it's niggas out there with hella warrants. And I be wondering, how do you get hella warrants? Because after the first warrant, aren't you wanted? How did they issue another one without taking you? But you know niggas with hella warrants. I do. Right. So, it happens. It does. So, on July 4th of the same year, she goes and she robs a man named Frederick Adamson. Now, this is her third time, not one, not two, but third time robbing this man.

You talk about terrorizing. Because a robbery really disrupts your peace of mind. It really does. And having it happen three times, like once a year I'm getting robbed or I know that every six, I'm going to get robbed every quarter. Like knowing that if I, the anxiety, like knowing that the third of each month is when you get paid your little social security check.

And you got to like really hold it close. Really hold it close. And I mean, it makes me think about the Daphne Wright episode from way, way back. And it's like, sometimes that's all you got to live off of. But this time when she robbed Frederick, she was also once again, torturing him, beating him. And she like took his tongue and was pulling it out of his mouth, head, demanding money, demanding him to give her anything that he had, like pulling the tongue out. Disgusting.

Where is that where you go? How is that where you go for torture? Like, I'm going to grab your tongue and pull it out your mouth. I mean, the one time that I got my... That is some weird shit, bro. The one time that I got my tongue pierced, it was very uncomfortable. Like, just the clamp on your tongue. Exactly. But who goes for that? And on August 2nd, 1989, our good Dorothy Williams was arrested again because she was trespassing on different Chicago Housing Authority property. Not this elderly home, but a different one.

And when she was arrested, she claimed that her name was Peggy, her deceased sister. She claimed she was Peggy. They let her out. And once again, she was on the street. I don't know how many times. How do you let somebody? Don't they do something when you get arrested to know who you are? Like once you're arrested, aren't you in a system? Or am I just too far advanced because it's 1989? It depends. I think it depends. And so one, I think the issue was maybe they looked up Peggy.

and Peggy didn't have no record or whatever, or Peggy didn't have no issues. But two, you don't always get fingerprinted based on the severity of the crime. I got fingerprinted, and I didn't even get arrested. But the first time I got arrested, I didn't get fingerprinted. All right. Okay, so it's September 6, 1989, right?

And there's this lady, Officer Betty Woods, and she's a plainclothes officer providing her services to the nursing home or to the elderly home, right? Mm-hmm. It's not out of the goodness of her heart or anything. She was assigned this. This is her duty, right? So it's around 1130, and Mr. Hubert Carmer, the neighbor who saw Dorothy leave... With a box. With a box, right? Mm-hmm. So he comes howling on down to Officer Betty, and he's like...

It's her. It's the lady I seen with the box leaving Mary's room. She leaving a bus stop with some other woman. You need to go get her. Go get her. He said... He told Officer Betty... He's like, I used to see her all the time. But it stopped a little after Mary died. Now she got on glasses and done dyed her hair. She think I don't know it's her. But I know it's her. He also said that he seen her slapping around some other... He was like, when I first moved in here, I saw her slapping around another resident. So I know it's her. I know it's her. She always up here causing trouble. So...

Officer Betty goes to the woman and she's like, hey, I am a cop. I would like to talk to you guys. And Dorothy introduces herself as one Deborah Williams. Whole new persona. She already used Peggy, I guess. Yeah. So her friend is Michelle McBride. Also, if she went in as Peggy, right?

And her finger, if she did get fingerprints, they would have went under as Peggy. Well, I guess at this time it's not really scanned. You're doing it by ink. Yeah. In a Rolodex or something. Right. Terrible, terrible filings. Okay. So she asked who the friend is. The friend is Michelle McBride. So the detective is like...

Yeah, do you ladies mind if I get an officer down here to talk to you about this case we have going on? And they're like, I don't know, that should be fine. So she tries to call and the detectives are like, look, we're busy. You're going to have to bring him down here. She was like, actually, would you guys mind going down to the station with me?

And for whatever reason, they still agreed. So they go down to the station and Officer Betty leaves them with Detective Edward Smith. He's the detective on the case. And he talks to the few for just a few minutes. And he's like, Mrs. McBride, can you step out, please? He's like, yeah, you're not pertinent to this case. We're not going to waste any more of your time. You leave.

You, Ms. Williams, let's talk. So they start a conversation around 1.15, 1.30, and it lasts about 10 minutes. And throughout the conversation, he's basically asking, he's like, when's the last time you've been in that CHA building? And she was like, oh, it's been years. CHA. Right. A long, long time ago. He's like, have you heard of Mrs. Mary Harris? And she's like, I don't know that woman. And I'm like, all right.

They're going to talk to Mr. Hubert. And they're like, listen, she says she hasn't been there in years. And she doesn't know this woman. He said, I saw her there yesterday. But also, like, that's where she just got picked up from. From the bus stop. Close enough that he could see.

Circumstantial, bro. He might have had them good eyes. They don't make eyeballs like they used to. Right. So around 2 o'clock, they go back to her and they're like, hey, could you do us a favor? Could you sign this form? And it's just going to let us go to your house and just check and make sure everything's all right. And she signs it. She signs it. Deborah Williams. They go to her house and they find themselves a stereo. A nice, a nice stereo.

And the two speakers, they go with it. A little after three, they go back and they talk to her for about five more minutes. They're like, hey, where'd you get this stereo from? She says, oh, I got it hot off the street. You know. Listen, I have a T-shirt from this nigga. He has a brand called Buy Lambo. I have a T-shirt. It says, steal something, I'll buy it. Support your local boosters. Okay. Because that's how it be, bro.

So she said she got a hot off the street. Can't tell you who, can't tell you where he's at, but a man sold it to me about a month ago. He's like, so would you mind going on a polygraph and giving us your fingerprints? She says, sure. They get her fingerprints around 630. They transport her to the polygraph case and she fills the polygraph test. Surprise, surprise. And

Her fingerprints match two prints at Mary's house. So around 830, they formally arrest Dorothy for the murder of Mary Harris. Now, after being under arrest, she tries to stick to her story, but they're like, girl, we've got the fingerprints. We've got the stereo. We've got a lot of evidence against you. She says, I. So here's what happened. I was with this man named Clyde.

And when I went in there, we just went to talk to her. Clyde strangled her to death. And then he carried out the stereo and the speakers and he let me have it. Right. She didn't carry it out. He did. He did. It was awfully nice of Mr. Clyde. So they was like, girl, listen, you've been seen alone. You carrying the boxes. You were the one who did this. She's like, fine. It was me. Drop the screw in the tuna.

So, yeah, she was like, it was all me. So on September 7th, the next day, she makes an on record about just what went down during Mary's murder.

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Check out my girl Jewel and Jewel's views. All of her information will be in the description box below. I promise you it is worth it. Now back to the show. Okay, now Miss Mary Harris was a 97-year-old black woman who stood about 5'3 and weighed 99 pounds wet. But she was still in good health. She lived in a senior housing authority building and she had been there since the late 60s, early 70s.

Well, on July 25th, 1989, around 9.30 a.m., Mary's daughter, Marianne... That's how you know they black. Mm-hmm. Because they make their names match. Mm-hmm. Mary's daughter, Marianne, came to visit. Mary was wearing her pink bandana over her head. And Marianne stayed for about five hours, leaving around 2.30. So...

And Dorothy, you know, running through these housing authorities looking for her next little come up. As she do. As she does. She goes over to Mary's house and she's like, hello, Mary. So her and Mary are chit-chatting up a little bit. And she offers, you know, do a little favor or something for Mary. Mary's like, you know what? I do need some milk. And she's like, hold on. Let me go get the $2 out of my purse. And she turns to go get the $2 out of her purse.

And Dorothy grabs her from the back, arms around her waist, and muffles her, trying to get her quiet. So Mary starts screaming, let me go, let me go. She's scratching Dorothy, just trying to do everything for her little body just to get free. She don't weigh but nothing, you know? Right. She's just a little person. So Dorothy grabs the bandana or the rag from top of her head and stuffs it in Mary's mouth so that she can't scream.

And Amiri's trying to get it off and she can't. And Dorothy takes the bandana and she wraps it around her and she ties it around her neck. And she's pulling it for about 30 seconds. And then Amiri faints. Dorothy throws her on the bed and she grabs the little realistic clarinet 16 stereo with the two speakers, a bedspread in a box and left. They said that when they found her, it wasn't just tied around her neck. It was almost, at least from the court documents, it sounded like

almost her chin was also tied into it. So it went around her neck and her chin was like tucked into that bandana, which is even more painful. Yeah. They also said they found her with two black eyes and the knot was in the front. So probably sitting right on her throat. Yeah. And the house was just a mess. And Dorothy says, well, you know, I was looking for money. Yeah. So the cops are like, you know,

Thanks for telling the truth and all. But he's like, so listen, the way you left this scene at Mary's house is looking real similar to how we found Mr. Lonnie Law's house. Now, you haven't known anything about that? So she was like, actually, I do know a Lonnie Law from around the same area.

As a matter of fact, he was one of my johns, one of the people that I was, you know, getting money from for sexual favors because that's what she was doing around the building. She was also not just robbing. She was also prostituting around the building because the old man. And hey, the loving don't stop. You know what I'm saying?

They got needs. I'm sure they do. But Lonnie was still, even though he was 79, he was a small guy. He was about 5'5". He was about 97 pounds. So a really small guy. So she's like, all right, baby, what you want to do? And he's like, all right, I'm about to buy some of this loving. They trade services. And when it's time to pay, he owes her $50. And he's like, no, I'm not going to pay you. And she's like, yeah, you're going to pay me. He's like, no, I'm not going to pay you. So she gets...

pissed yes you are about to fucking pay me and then she goes and she grabs two pieces of clothing wraps it around him and starts strangling him then she takes his own belt wraps it around his neck just starts yanking at it strangling him once again she ran through the apartment looked for anything that she could find money

goods, anything that she could find and she left. The fingerprints that were found at the apartment, remember we said the only thing found at the apartment were fingerprints? Just so happens to match Miss Dorothy Williams. And they're like, okay, so let's see if these fingerprints, let's see if we got two for two, let's see if we can get three for three. There's another murder, as we know, Cesar Zarrell, that was 64. And let's see if those fingerprints match there. She's like, I don't even worry about it, yes.

they do once again so he calls her over he wants some of that good good and she's like all right you already know i'm coming through she goes and she buys a pint of whiskey you know a little liquid courage while she's going to do her job and then she heads to the house she does her exchange of services once again she's like okay the price is fifty dollars and he's like i ain't got you gonna have to come back and get it she's like no motherfucker you finna pay me especially you called me over here you should have my money ready he said

I got you. I got you. I'm, I'm, I'm finna, she gets pissed. Once again, no, you're finna pay me right now. I know you got the motherfucking money. He gets scared. So he goes and he turns around, he pulls out his pocket knife. He's like, bitch, don't step closer. She somehow grabs the pocket knife from him and stabs him. Somehow.

is what 97 pounds he was also very small he was also five foot five and he was also five five but he was a little bit bigger in stature however she didn't strangle him she took that pocket knife and she stabbed him three times and lacerated his love with that with one of those stabs she then took 87 dollars out his wallet and ransacked the house yet again

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rocketmoney.com slash sisters. And remember, Caesar's body was the one that was found really badly decomposed and disgusting. So she was arrested and they get ready to go to trial in 1991. Now when they go to trial, the defense has nothing. Nada. They present no evidence. They...

Don't help out pretty much in any way at all. And the prosecution, though, they had quite a bit to say. The prosecution argued that, listen, she was preying on and abusing the elderly all of this time for years. And then there were also quite a few witnesses. There was Herbert Carmichael, who lived in the same building and testified the same day. And the one that said he saw her, he said that he saw her, that he was standing in his day room at about 6.30 a.m.

On July 25th, 1989, he said he saw Dorothy leaving the building alone, carrying a box big enough to carry a stereo. And he said, look, I had seen her a number of times. I've seen her choke. I've seen her slap around. I know who she is.

no fake glasses and red hair is going to fool me. Okay. Then we had Willie Shelby who also lived in the same building who saw her that same day as well, who said, Oh, she left around six o'clock, six o'clock, six 30. It's a big difference, but not too big for old folks. She was probably roaming them halls. She was probably roaming those hallways. Right.

They also presented that they found Dorothy's fingerprints on five things inside of Mary's apartment. And the stereo was found at her home. And she confessed in front of a court reporter. Now, the medical examiner, of course, testified and said that Mary had two black eyes, probably from being hit. And Mary's high up bone was fractured and she had a ligature mark around her neck. Now, now.

The hyoid bone is a bone that's in your neck and it's pretty fragile, but it is how they really can determine if the cause of death is the strangulation because it's easily broken and almost all the time broken when strangulation is the cause of death. After the trial was done on March 12th, 1991, found Dorothy Williams guilty of first degree murder and robbery.

During sentencing, her daughter and her mother testified on her behalf, you know, always pleading, begging, trying to give their loved one a lighter sentence. And Dorothy said absolutely nothing. Her daughter said that, listen, my mom raised me in a normal, happy upbringing. But here's the thing. Her daughter in 1992, so not too far off the next year,

Shakira was arrested for assault and battery of an 80 year old man, 80 year old man in which her mother introduced her to. So Apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. So so y'all remember Emma Lipsy from the beginning of the episode, the one that said she got knocked out by a milk crate, two front teeth gone. Remember, we had that conversation. So she also testified.

during the court proceedings and she talked about the incident literally she said she hit me with a milk crate and Dorothy I guess it pissed Dorothy off because they was trying her gangster and Dorothy held up her right hand she said I hit her with my fist because if you're gonna tell the storyteller right if you're gonna tell the storyteller right exactly so she was like look that's I ain't hit you with nothing but these hands okay so judge

Shelvin Singer sentenced Dorothy to death for the first-degree murder of Mary and robbery on April 18, 1991.

After she was convicted for Mary's murder, she pled guilty to all of the other charges, which was armed robbery, which held a sentence of 30 years, robbery, which held a sentence of seven years, two additional counts of murder for Cesar and Lonnie, which both held a life sentence, housed at the Logan Correctional Center. So in June 1995 is when Dorothy filed her first post-conviction petition, basically trying to say she didn't have a fair trial.

And her arguments were that she was mentally challenged. She was like, check this out. I've got this bump right here above my eyebrow. It's because I got hit by a car when I was 12. And so mine's not too good. And I don't necessarily think that I was fit to stand trial. She's like,

I can't hardly read. You know, I got low IQ. I didn't know nothing was going on. I didn't know what I was doing when I signed that Miranda waiver. I didn't know what I was doing when I signed that search warrant. What do I know? I'm brain damaged, you know? After learning that she has this brain injury, they're like, okay, listen, I want you to be on trial for your hearings, but I want to make sure that you're fit for these trials, so...

Before we figure out if you were fit for the last trials, we need to figure out if you're fit for this one. She gets in front of Dr. Linda Whittle, and she's like, I've performed several tests on her intellectual function, and it seems like she could actually be experiencing some long-term effects from that car accident. And it seems that she could have diminished intellectual levels. Her capacity to understand or remember things

are limited, and that includes things that her lawyer may have told her, right? They're like, ah, we don't know. She's like, I, for one, don't know if she was fit to stand trial, right? So they're like, y'all need to dig deeper into this, and they did, and they researched for about three years. In May 1998, they started the hearings to see if she was fit for the post-conviction proceedings, so fit to face her appeals, right? So...

Basically, in his proceeding, he was like, listen, if she's fit, I want her to be here. And if she's not fit, I want us, you know, we wouldn't make her be here. But she's fit. And he gets these two doctors up and they're like, listen, we tested her. One's a clinical director and one's a chief psychologist. And they're like, listen, back in 95, I would have told you that she wasn't competent. But looking at it now and all this research that we've done, I'm thinking that she is.

Her IQ scores were so different. Like, she always scored low on her IQ, like normally low. But the discrepancies were so big in between the two. Like, it was ranging from, like, 50-something to 70-something. And it was like there wouldn't be that much variation in your two different cycles. She's low on it, but they don't think she's below. They think anything that she did below was an effort to cheat and make it lower to help her case. Basically, they're like, you're a liar.

I mean, I get that. But do you remember when we were in high school and the night before the SAT or no, the night before the ACT is when we won the state championship? I didn't take the ACT. Girl, when I tell you it was then I already took the ACT and I was going to take it twice. And I did a really good job on the first time in the ACT. And so my mom was like, OK, you need to take it again.

Girl, everybody was up there. The football players were up there looking crazy. That was the night we won the championship. I was up there looking crazy. And my ACT score was significantly different the second time. Like, to the point where my mom was like, well, I'm glad I'm already proud of your first score. Well, I took the SAT twice. I scored 10 points higher. And I was like, I'm not doing this again. Mm-hmm.

I was, I was arrested for both of my tests. I remember everybody drug their ass into school and it was a Saturday morning, of course. And it was a whole bunch of football players. I was like, I don't even know why y'all even decided to even stay for this day or test on this day because you knew he was going to win a state championship because that's what we did in high school. So I guess, you know, with proper preparation, there shouldn't be that much variance. True. So, yeah.

It was like, she's kind of looking like a bit of a liar here. Then they started getting into, you know, was she on medicine? And was the medicine that they were giving her, mailing her out? And they actually had her on antidepressants and antipsychotics. But it was like, it was more like a sedative.

It wasn't affecting her mental state. He's like, she's still functional. She's still able to comprehend things. All in all, they're like, yeah, she's only sedated. She's not that heavy on medicine. She's fine. You know, they're focusing on what's going on now so they can get to the case. And they're like, okay, we decided that she's fit to stand through the proceedings. So now they're like, okay, let's get started on this case.

So she's trying to amend her statement or whatever. She's trying to amend her petition. And she has two affidavits. One is from physician orders saying that she was under drugs during the time she was through trial. And then the other one is an affidavit from her brother, John. And he's saying...

You know, they have the perjury things in there. But he basically states that his sister never graduated from grammar school. She never attended high school, that she was illiterate. She'd been using heroin, cocaine since she was 14. And she was taken to the hospital in an ambulance when she was hit by a car at 11 years old. So he's like, I'm telling you all of this stuff is true because everybody else is saying that she's lying. I'm telling y'all she don't know what y'all saying.

Everything that they're saying, like, she's not a liar. All of this stuff actually did happen to her. There's several things that could affect her mental health. Between the drugs, between the lack of education, between being hit by a car, between just not being the brightest to start off with. She had a lot working against her. So they're able to change their petition. They're like, listen.

Y'all didn't tell the courts that I was mentally incompetent. Y'all didn't act like it was an issue that I'm taking psychotics during a trial. Y'all didn't suppress my confession, even though I'm illiterate and I have a mental defect. So I don't know that I raped my rights. And y'all didn't think of it to be a mitigating factor when sentencing me to death. Like, y'all didn't consider that. Right. Because you really have to take it as a jury. She would have just given it to me.

Oh, right, she did it just for a judge. Yeah. The judge did it himself. And she blames that, too. She was like, I didn't understand what that meant. So the state's like, throw it out. It's all a lie. And the courts are like, yeah, we agree. So she goes up again trying to make this same argument. And in 2002, they agree that, okay, maybe some things weren't right. And maybe you are a bit mentally challenged. And maybe...

You might be illiterate. Maybe you didn't have the best and most fair trial that you probably could have had. All of that seemed not to really matter in the long run because in 2003, the governor of Illinois commuted all of the sentences of everybody on death row in 2003. He was like, all of y'all are just going to do life with no possibility of parole. Saved by the bell. Yeah. Yeah. I think they accepted that she had...

some problems during her case but it wasn't big enough or concerning enough for them to give her a whole new trial right but she was saved by the bell anyways yep all righty y'all it is time for well i'm not black i'm okay i ain't do it but if i did this is how i would have got away with it you want to go first you want me to go first

I ain't do it. But if I did, I don't think it's no need to kill. I think she's been fine just robbing them and getting away with it. I think the murder is kind of up to the step and kind of... Right. I feel like she just kept up trying to top herself. Like at first it was just robbery. Then it was like armed robbery. And then it was armed robbery with torture. And then it was killing. And not just killing, but killing by strangulation, which is...

You think she had like a, um, a mice have been situation. And it was like a shh, shh, shh. And it's like, oh, you're dead. Could have been. Um, but also it's, I don't know why she would kill Mary because like the first two, she killed them because they owed her money and she got upset and things, you know, because sex work is real work. You know what I'm saying? I, I stand beside that sex work is real work. And,

As long as it's a choice. As long as it's a choice. And she performed a service and they didn't pay her and she got mad and so she killed them. I don't think killing somebody over $50 is worth that at all. But like, that's what set her off. That's what set her off. Set her off with Mary. Exactly. And I feel like also it seems like she's a bit greedy because if you do this, if you do, if you do a task for someone, you usually don't get paid for the task until the task is complete. Right.

So if you give me $2 to go get you some milk and I get the milk, then I'm going to come back and be like, okay. I mean, even more greedy because she went to the other man. Give me, give me some money to get a beer. Give me a shot. You asked nicely. And if I don't got it, I don't owe you shit. Even if I do got it, I don't owe you shit.

It's my money. Right. Yeah, I didn't do it, but if I did, I definitely would have found some new elderly homes to go around because while she was trying and she got kicked out for trespassing. Because you, they know your face. They said she don't got no family.

No friends. She don't live here. Like, there's no reason for her to be up here. Why are you at the same place over and over and over and over and over again? I just feel like, oh, people should just be left alone. They already had to live a whole life. And now your ass is going to come and kill them. Or terrorize them. Exactly. Grabbing their tongue out their mouth and shit.

Come on now. Parole and a parole. Parole and a parole. Hell no. No, no, no. I hope along with this medicine that they're giving her, they're giving her some actual psychiatric help. Some actual therapy. And even though she is spending the rest of her natural born life in prison, like she needs- It's still not too late. You can still like get yourself together. And maybe help somebody else. I mean, it wouldn't be in like the education sector because-

yeah but maybe she can be influential in other places exactly exactly but no keep her ass yeah i'm so sorry not really sorry she's a menace to society very much so all right let's read some reviews what are the people saying this week okay this is from tahara144 i love love love this

I'm new to your podcast, and first, let me say this. Please, please, please never stop posting new content. The sound of y'all voices telling the stories is very common to me. I don't know what it is. I wanted to road trip and binge you guys, and y'all helped the time go by. You guys really know how to tell a story, and you never dry up. Super funny. I love how both of you show your personality and share your thoughts on everything. I had to put a face to the name, so I'm following you guys on Instagram and TikTok. Love you guys, and keep it up.

Thanks, girl. Thanks. Even though no one can find Tazzy's real Instagram. She doesn't want you all to find it. She doesn't use it. I don't use it. But she doesn't want you to find it. Marashana gave me to use my other Instagram for you guys. Yes, I do. We're manifesting good things over here. All right. Maybe you'll be able to find her soon. All righty. This one is from Chocolate Lady from Iowa.

She says, OMG, I love y'all so much. Feel like you right there with your good girlfriends talking about killers. Keep up the great work, ladies. And yes, they talk back. Yeah, we do. Yeah, we do. I think we pretty much always talk back unless you talk to us about Michelle Blair.

On the discussion group, we tend to always talk back. But once it gets to TikTok and Instagram, I do what I can. Yeah. It's flooded. You'll get more interaction on Twitter and the discussion group. Yeah. And maybe an email. Don't get crazy. Yeah. Emails definitely get responded to. All right. That's the end of our show, friend. We did it. Another week. Dear God.

All righty. If you want to find us, keep up with us, say hey. You can email us if you'd like to just say hello. If you want to purchase ad space at sisterswhokillpodcast at gmail.com. If you want to follow us on Instagram, it's sisterswhokillpod. If you want to follow us on Twitter, it's sisterswhokill. TikTok, sisterswhokillpodcast. And you can also join the discussion group. Make sure that you answer all my questions and stop inviting your auntie and them into my discussion group. A chick got mad because, uh...

She didn't get accepted because she said she didn't listen to an episode. And that sounds like a whole bunch of not my problem. Alrighty. You have anything else, friend? Talk to us. We talk back. Peace.