Shownotes Transcript
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free money, free money is out there. Just go get it by starting your podcast today. This week's players are Marilyn Megger, the victim, James Dickerson, the co-defendant, and Erica Shepard, our murderess. Erica was born on September 1st, 1973 in Bay City, Texas. She had pretty rough backgrounds. Her father was an alcoholic.
And her father would, like, beat her mom in front of her and her brother. So, like, that was what she was growing up seeing from a very young age. Her father soon left her mother. And then her mother, through all that rage, started beating Jonathan and Erica constantly. It's going to be one of those stories, y'all. You know, Tazzy, I really wish that we could do a deep dive into these mamas' backgrounds. Because, like...
Where does it start? We have a lot of stories that, right, we have a lot of stories that start this way and it's clear that this is not the start. You know what I'm saying? This is only the documented start that we can find. Anyways, the abuse that they both had from their mother was, was a lot. Um, she would make them strip down naked and she would beat them with switches and belts until they would bleed out or if they were
scream so loud that the neighbors would hear. Mom had a hard time keeping a job. I mean, she was also bouncing in between houses. They really didn't have a place, a steady place to go, a steady place to grow up. Now, when Erica was about two years old, mom started dating women. One particular woman that Erica's mom was dating started sexually assaulting Erica more than a few times.
Between the ages of three and five, her mom would leave Jonathan, which is Erica's brother, and Erica with a babysitter named Cookie. Now, Cookie had a boyfriend, and this boyfriend would be with Cookie to watch the kids. And this was all fine and dandy for a while, but after a while, the boyfriend would start sexually abusing Erica, like making her perform oral on him. And after a few months, it's like those movies where you call them over after they leave. Like, no, I hired you to watch my children. Exactly. And I know the kids are in bed, but that means it's time for you to sit there
and hang out with yourself. Even if you want to sit on the phone with your nigga, don't invite anybody over to my house while you're watching my kids. But mom knew about it. And that's why I say it was fine and dandy. No, it was not fine and dandy. It's going to continue as you guys listen to the episode to not be fine and dandy. But mom was cool about it. No, no. It's...
I could never see it happening. Never. Okay, so the boyfriend, yes, he was making Erica perform oral on him. And then it escalated, of course, and he started raping Erica. And then it escalated even more because he started raping Erica in front of Jonathan. And Jonathan is like her little brother. Like, you know, Jonathan's a kid too. He's traumatized as well trying to figure out what the hell is going on. And it would be to the point where Erica, while the babysitter boyfriend was raping her, she would, like, pass out. And when she came to, they were basically just cleaning up the blood.
and figuring out what story they were going to tell and making sure that Cookie never saw. So the babysitter is just letting her boyfriend rape these kids on her watch? Yeah. I don't know if she was leaving him there or if she was just like, go back there with the kids, bae.
Like, because where are you? This is your job, your gig. Your job. He should never be even alone with the kids. Right. Cookie wasn't no angel herself. I mean, honestly, the more I think about this story, like, Cookie was making Jonathan and Erica walk to the store with no shoes on. Who knows what other shit she was doing to torture them. It would not surprise me if Cookie was well aware of what was happening and allowing it to happen.
One day, Erica and Jonathan were like, okay, you know, they keep telling us, they keep threatening us, they keep doing this, this, and this. We need to go ahead and we need to tell mom. They finally got the courage to tell mom, mom's name is Madeline, about the abuse. Madeline didn't believe them at all. She was like, y'all are some fucking liars. And she started beating their ass, beating them even more violently than they ever were before. It got so bad that grandma, whose name is Annie, Annie had to come in and physically intervene because Madeline was acting fucking crazy.
And so finally Erica started living with grandma. And once they started living with grandma, you know, they started getting their life back on track. You know, it was a little peace around the house. They were going to church. They weren't stressed out about everything that happened at home. I mean, at this time, Erica had failed fourth grade because I mean, how is she supposed to learn anything if she can't even have peace at home?
Probably don't even get no sleep. So she ended up having to repeat fourth grade. Jump to 1986. Erica was like 13 years old and she starts hanging out with a senior from the high school. They're drinking him less than her and she gets drunk and he ends up raping her.
A few weeks later, Erica finds out she's pregnant. Her mom finds out and she beats the shit out of Erica, almost knocking her unconscious because she's like, if I beat her good enough, then this baby ain't gonna make it. The baby was still alive after all this, so Erica ended up going to a nearby clinic by herself at 13 to get an abortion. 13? Right. I know it's hard enough for people like at my age to go and get an abortion because it fucks with your head and stuff like that, but like at 13, that's a lot to carry. It's a lot to carry. That's a lot of,
That's a lot to think about. And then after getting an abortion, you know, that's like you have to take care of yourself afterwards. She received no aftercare. She had no more further treatment. Like she got it done and then just didn't speak about it again. Didn't do anything to take care of herself. Jump three years later, Erica's like 16 and all this time has passed, but nothing's getting better. She had ran away from home like 10 times. There were like three more incidents of rape that had happened to her like yesterday.
She's going through it. It does not stop raining on her, right? One day, she's walking from Grandma Annie's house to a fast food restaurant when a man pulled in front of her. He gets out the car and holds a knife to her neck and forces her to participate in oral sex, right? This whole time, this guy is threatening to kill her if she doesn't comply.
And so, of course, she does. And then he beats her up a little bit, leaves her on the side of the street. This is like another welcome to Erica's life. Another day in the life, you know. A few months later, Erica's drunk at a high school party and she ends up getting gang raped by her classmates. She says she doesn't remember how many men raped her that night, but she does remember one guy talking to others, talking about, come get some of it, come get some of it.
She said she doesn't even know. That was the scariest thing, getting drunk in high school. Thank God that the couple times that I got really, really fucking drunk, like, I was around good people. Because you just never fucking know. Right. It could go any kind of way. Mm-hmm. So, right before her 17th birthday, a former classmate of hers named Mike Marcus drives her home. Now, they had been friends for a while. And he would take her home from time to time. So, there's just nothing out the news. Like, oh, you want me to ride the bus? I got you. Well, I'm headed that way.
So this particular night, they're driving home and he asked Kenny Cummings to use the bathroom. She takes him inside and he barges into her room and he rapes her. Like she literally has nobody to lean on. Like whoever her mom's dating, her babysitters, her...
her classmates, her so-called friends, strangers on the fucking street. Everybody sees her as a target and a victim and everybody's taking full advantage of her in the worst kind of way. About a week after this incident happened, she finds out that she is pregnant again.
And she had like just turned 17 when she told Marcus about the fact that she was pregnant with his baby because she was 17. You know, Grandma Annie trying to do what she has to do. And she's not trying to let her mom know that what's going on. She had nobody to help her with child care. So she ends up dropping out of school. She was around the 11th grade. She had to provide for her kid and herself.
So Erica, she gave birth. Of course, like we said, she's living with her grandma full time. Her mama found out about this pregnancy, about this baby, and the fact that she dropped out of school to take care of this baby. And so her mama decided to be a mama and came over to her grandmother's house and took a telephone cord and was trying to strangle Erica. Erica!
Erica, she was getting sick and tired of it. You know, like, I'm not safe here. I'm not safe there. I'm not safe anywhere. And so she called the police to file a police report. An officer came to her grandmother's house to take the statement, but they said that they were going to press charges. They were like, no, you know, you're 17. We're not going to press charges. We know that you're a minor, but we're going to put you at the Covenant House, which is a shelter. But when she got to the shelter, they were like, okay, you can only stay here for two days because you're a minor. And if you want to stay longer than two days, you're
You're going to need a guardian's signature. Her legal guardian is her mother. And her mother would not sign for her to stay there. So she had to go from the shelter back to grandma's house. Which...
she's 17 and you you just said that she's a minor yes and she just turned 17 she's got less than a year in the system but you know if that's what she needs to be then that's what she needs to be right y'all trying to force her into this adulthood that she is clearly not prepared for three months later on november 6 1990 when she was still only 17 years old erica found out that she was pregnant again this time when her mom found out that she was pregnant she was like
Fine, I will sign the papers so that you can live in the shelter full time. After a few months staying in the shelter, the shelter was having space issues. You know, you got these kids here and they were like, you're gonna have to go.
luckily around this time her mom had a new girlfriend so she wasn't really too worried about erica was able to have this child this was another boy named manchi it was kind of a peaceful pregnancy compared to the other after giving birth erica applied for food stamps she started attending classes at the local adult learning center she applied and was hired to be like a secretary for the county judge so
You know, things are starting to, she's working the program, really trying to get it because I just came from this shitty ass situation. And even though she had not graduated from high school, this is a pretty sweet gig. She don't have to work nights at the restaurant. She ain't got to flip burgers. You know, she can wear a nice outfit and go to work like a respectable person. She was starting to make her own money. She had a job. She had a babysitter. She had the job to pay for a babysitter. You know, life was looking good.
One night at the work, she was at the grocery store and she meets this 27-year-old guy named Jerry Bryant. But Jerry was married to another woman named Paula, right? So although Jerry's like 10 years older than her, she was like, you know, we got along very well. He was quite charming. Jerry decides that Erica's the woman for him, you know? He was like, check this out. I want to take care of you. I'm going to leave Paula. He divorced his wife. I'm going to take care of you, right? Like, don't worry about nothing. I'm going to take care of you. So she was like, you know? That is so wild.
to me. We was just talking about this before we started researching this episode. What, making our own money? No, about somebody divorcing their wife or somebody else. Like, that's like... You make that union for God. Right. He's like, no, this is the one for me. I love her. Paula was a mistake. I need Erica in my life. He's like, you know, come, just, I'm gonna take care of you, right? So Erica's like, you know, it probably would be nice to be taken care of for once. I got all these kids to feed. Like, yeah.
Let's do that. So she drops out of adult school and she moves in with Jerry. And just as fast as they fell in love...
was just as quick as that kind of turned and he became possessive and violent towards her. He would beat her and stalk her on her way to work or to her grandma's or to the store. Like, you turn, there's Jerry. He kept a .45 revolver in his pants and he would take it out and threaten Erica all the time saying he was going to kill her.
He would put the gun up to her head and in her mouth while he yelled at her. Then he started to accuse Erica of cheating on him with the judge that she works for. And this judge is like 50, married, everything. But he was like, that don't mean shit. I was married once too. I know how you are. I know how you move. So...
That nigga was paranoid. I'm telling you. He said, I heard the way you get him is how you lose him. That sounds like a thing you need to take up with yourself, J. You know? But that's what it is. It's always projection, right? They always project onto the other person. And when I say he was accusing her, he really believed his shit. And he would wait for her to get off work, make sure she ain't walking out with the judge or nothing, and just stalking her and beating her and stalking her and beating her like crazy.
Where is this nigga's job? Don't you have to be at work? On top of the threats of, you know, I know you're cheating and fuck you. You're just a terrible person. He was like, but don't you ever think about leaving me. Because if you leave, I'm cute. It was very much a...
a Wallace prison that she was in, you know? Cause she truly believed like he's, he's already pulling the pistol out, putting it to her head, you know? And she leaves him. What's to stop him from pulling the trigger. After her 18th birthday, she becomes pregnant with his baby.
And he was ecstatic. Extend this family, you know? You would think it would turn his tendencies to be nicer to her, maybe. One day, while her friend was driving her home from work, he followed her, cornered the car on the street, yanks her out of the car, pulls her by her hair, and pulls out his gun. He puts it to her head. And there's just like several instances of this throughout the pregnancy. She gives birth on August 12, 1992, to a baby girl named Audria.
When Audrey was nine months old, she gets really sick. She's got milk intolerance and she had to stay in a hospital for a while. Erica's right by her side every day because of course you are. You know, I've got this young baby. She needs me here for her. Why would I go home? Like she's she goes home just when she starts to get a little funky. She showers, she changes clothes, she's back. So this puts us in about May, right?
So May 24th 1993 Jerry shows up to the hospital And demands that Erica come home And have sex with him Because she has been in the hospital for too long And Erica refused She was like my baby is here And I'm not coming home until my baby comes home But like when Adria comes I will come I come yeah And the reason you need me is because you need to fuck What? Nigga your baby is in the hospital
Your baby needs you here. And you worried about fucking. No, he pulls up to the hospital and not to be with his baby. He punches Erica in the face. He's pissed. He begins beating her severely and leaves her unconscious in the hospital parking lot.
Erica's taken inside the hospital because of her injuries Jerry flees the scene and he never gets arrested so now Erica is also admitted to the hospital and you know so they've got her and Audrey there together they get discharged together and they come home from the hospital and this was Erica's breaking point she takes her three kids she goes to the police but
They don't file a police report against Jerry. So Erica had to go home to him. Later that week, Jerry's back at it again, accusing Erica of cheating. And when she denied it, he grabs her by her feet, drags her off the couch. He wraps her hair around his hand and begins to beat her repeatedly in the head, punching her in the face until she stopped fighting back because she passed out. Like, at this point, I don't even know how Erica's still going. Like, so...
Sometimes when you get beat like that, you end up going numb. And I think that's what she does. I think that's like passing out. It sounds like passing out is like a defense mechanism. Yeah, like at least when I pass out, it'll stop. Yeah, it may be happening, but she can check out. So Erica reports this attack to the police, but again, they do nothing. Instead, they tell her to go to Montegorio County Women's Crisis Center. Now, this wasn't what she was looking for before.
But it was something. So she flees to the crisis center with her three kids. And at this point, Erica just wants to survive and protect her and her children. She's got, like, serious PTSD. She's got dissociative disorder, which, I mean, you'd have to dissociate to keep pushing. You know what I mean? Absolutely. Absolutely.
um and while they were living at the shelter she you know i mean a determined cookie she started applying for new jobs so that jerry wouldn't know where she was working like he was stuck in the courthouse i can't work at the courthouse no more she was attending support groups she was still at the shelter but she was trying to find housing outside of the shelter and then uh she found out while she was at the shelter that she was pregnant and she was like well the
The last person I had sex with was Jerry. So I'm pregnant with one of Jerry's kids again. Erica was, listen, listen, Erica was like determined not to have another baby. But at this point, you know, Erica's really struggling and she was just determined not to have another baby. And she definitely didn't want to have another one with Jerry because Jerry ain't shit.
You know, why would I want to bring a baby into all this? Look at all this mess in this world. I ain't Rockefeller. Like, can't have all these kids. So she decided to get an abortion. She found a clinic. She took a bus there. And after the procedure, it was late. Like, she got the last appointment. The buses stopped running. When she left the clinic, she ended up walking back to the shelter. When she got back to the shelter, they did not let her in.
Because they said that she had broken the curfew rule. And she was like, well, what's the curfew rule? She was like, there's never been a curfew rule. What are you talking about? They were like, well, we put a curfew rule in place nine days ago. And you have broken it. Therefore, you cannot come in. I'm about to Google why shelters have curfews. I was thinking about this for a while and I did not Google it. So go ahead and keep Googling it, friend. So I will tell you my...
my weak thought process on this. Because at first I'm like, of course they don't need to have curfews because...
You don't know what time of night that a woman is fleeing her husband or fleeing her situation or in trying to get to you. And so what if this is her? What if this was a person's first time getting to that shelter? What if this was the night that they decided to grab the keys and grab the kids and run? Are you going to tell somebody that they cannot come in? On the other hand, I'm like, you know, anybody could come in there and come there at any time of night. So I feel like there should be something put in place so that.
You know, you can distinguish the real from the fake. But also, they knew. Y'all had to have known her. They didn't like her. Well, it brought me to, what is that? Quora? Yeah.
And he was like, because some guy who's never been homeless decided that this was the proper way to treat a human being seeking shelter. Like, they said, because some dude who's never been homeless decided that this was the proper way to treat, like, to be an asshole. Well, that sounds like...
But, you know, because I don't understand. He said, and they decided that everyone is exactly the same and based everything off of some statistical average and completely leaving out people who are struggling and can't follow a routine and totally blocking off of those who would thrive from a little bit of freedom. There was like every government program for the helpless, I mean, for the homeless is poor like that. And that's why so many of them prefer to stay in tents than a shelter anyways. And he's going off.
I love a little... I love Amine Shade letter. I love it in writing. And I feel like they knew her, like, especially if it was a new rule. You're telling me this rule is nine days old. They're saying it's, like, for organization and keeping the peace or whatever. And I think, like...
I was watching that. Did you ever watch Made on Netflix? Yes. So fucking good. But I feel like they had a curfew. And I think it was for like, you know, you don't want people coming in and out too late because a lot of people will go back to their abuser. You don't want abusers to find out where this place is located. But I don't know if she was in that type of situation. I don't know. I would think the idea is that two different maids. But OK.
It's just called Made, and it's got a Niki Nani Rose in it. Oh, no, I'm thinking about the show Made when people, they would make, like, tomboys into girly girls. No, M-A-I-D. But, yeah, it was kind of, they did it as, like, a safety thing. And it was like, there's a lot of rules here, but it's for everybody's safety. We're not going to let one person endanger everybody else. I don't know. I hope it's for the good of the mass as opposed to just being an asshole. I just...
It's just everybody's different. But, like, I think they was really, like, it's like a safety thing. Since she had nowhere to go, she's 19 years old at the time. She is... She took two of her kids to her grandmother's house, Hayward and Manchie. Took Audra to live with Jonathan, her brother, and his boyfriend, Manchie.
So it's her, Audra, Jonathan, and his boyfriend. His boyfriend's name was James R. Dickerson. Now, in a lot of things that you're going to see, they're going to say that James R. and Erica were lovers. But I am here to tell you, ladies and gentlefolk, that James R. Dickerson was Jonathan's man. And we tried to find some information about James before this incident, but...
It was hard to find, but we do know that he had blue eyes, was Jonathan's man, and had been diagnosed with HIV in May of 1993. He didn't work, and so in order to make money, he was doing like petty burglaries, mugging folks, and pawning off whatever he could. When Erica moved in, she didn't have a job, so she didn't have a job, James didn't have a job, Jonathan had a job. So her brother Jonathan went off to work, and Erica and James didn't have no money.
no job nothing to do so they you know birds of a feather flock together they begin to do these things these little walks together you know hot girl walks walking around the neighborhood doing what they had to do with audria they enjoyed each other they really were getting along so for six months it was like oh they're having
here erica had a little support system but still she was struggling to find a job so on june 29 2013 jonathan james erica and one of their friends named cory jordan were sitting at jonathan's house chilling talking shooting the shit doing whatever playing cards whatever they were sitting all around and james started talking about carjacking somebody you know he was talking about like i'm tired of being broke i feel you he was like i'm tired of being broke
like i'm we should just carjack somebody and erica's like shit you gonna carjack somebody you need to get somebody small and skinny like a light like a like like a white girl something like that somebody that's not gonna give you much fight back you know what i'm saying and cory's sitting there like this is an awkward conversation and then james is like if taking a life is what i have to do to give me some money then that's
And they started to seem like Erica and James were not just talking shit. You know how you just be talking shit, but like, damn, I'll do anything for some money. Like, goddamn, I'm about to start an OnlyFans. And you know folks are playing, I mean, maybe they serious. And then you be like, oh, you really got to start an OnlyFans. That's kind of how Corey was about this. He was like, oh, y'all really about to, oh, okay. So they were getting all hype about it, and then they left.
Jonathan's house to find somebody to jack. So James went to the kitchen. He got two knives. When he came back out, Erica was like, them knives are not long enough. They're not sharp enough to kill nobody. And what you're not going to do is stab somebody and get blood all over this car or blood on me. And then they were like, okay, so what are we going to wear? We need to put on something like dark. You know, you can't, you know, we're about to...
committed crimes that we have to put on our all blacks like sage manage like and they leave so james and erica are walking and they see somebody and they're like bingo they try to run up on her but she ends up running into the house and gets away from them pretty quickly and they were like damn struck out today went back home to jonathan's house to call it an evening
So the next day, June 30th, 1993, James and Erica were on one of their usual walks with Adria. While they were walking around the apartment complex, they see a skinny white woman unloading stuff from her car into the apartment. They look at this lady and it was like, skinny white bitch, huh? That's just what we say we need. Then they look at her car and she's driving a sports car, okay? And James is like, damn, man, I always wanted to be one of them.
We just saying we need to look hard. So he's like, you know what? Don't know who she is, but she looking like the one. They follow the woman up into her apartment and Erica enters first carrying a small kitchen knife. And James was right behind her. And yes, Audrey was there too. They enter the apartment and they scare this lady. And she's like, who's there? Who's there? And immediately the two jump on the woman knocking her onto the hallway floor.
James holds her down while she screams for help. She screamed, don't hurt me. Don't hurt me. I have two kids. Please, I'll give you anything. Don't hurt me. Erica hands James the knife and he holds it to her throat, telling her that if she moves, she's going to die. Erica's like, give me the keys to the car. And the lady says, my keys? You're crazy. Obviously, lady, look at what they're doing. They're obviously crazy.
James moves the knife closer to the neck. He's like, bitch, give us the keys. James forces her on her back as Erica begins running through the house trying to find anything valuable and the keys while the lady keeps screaming. James decides he's sick of hearing her yell, so he tries to slash her neck, but the knife is too dull. So he yells for Erica to find a sharper one. Now, didn't they have a chat beforehand and Erica said your knife ain't sharp enough to cut shit?
That was going to be my OJ, but since we're here, like. Nigga, follow instructions. A dull knife? You dummy. Dummy. Like, come on. Somebody had to cut you with a dull knife. Yeah, so he yells out for Erica to grab a sharper knife. Erica comes back with a butcher knife from this lady's kitchen and brings it back to James. Erica leaves James' side and continues to look for the keys. While she's looking around the house, James yells for her to come back.
And when she comes back to the room, she sees blood gushing from this woman's throat. But the woman is still breathing. James had slashed and stabbed her five times in the neck. And now the knife is stuck in her throat and he could not pull it out. James panics and grabs a nearby clear dry cleaning bag and ties it over the lady's head trying to suffocate her. That's not working. So he grabs a bed sheet and begins to strangle her.
Now they're both panicking. Oh shit, this lady won't die. What are we going to do? So James picks up a 10 pound statue nearby and hits her in the head with it. Afterwards, they find the keys to her 1993 black Mazda 626 and left her house. They dropped Audra off at Jonathan's house and went for joy rides in the Mazda. They even checked into a hotel.
They picked up a friend in the Bay City and they went swimming in a motel pool. Eventually, they abandoned the car that they wanted so badly in Bay City. That night, the lady's 18-year-old daughter, Kelly, got home from school and saw that her mom's car was missing. She was like, oh!
mom's usually here by now but let me run in the house real quick and use the phone and call uncle see if mom was at his house you know that happens but when she enters the house she's like something in here ain't right she walks through the house and sees half of a body sticking out from under a pile of clothes she moves the clothes and sees her mom's bloody neck and face covered with a clear bag a sheet tied around her neck kelly screams and calls for 9-1-1
Kelly's mom's name was Marilyn Sage Megger and was born on November 21st, 1949 in Harris County, Texas. She grew up there and that's also where she raised her two children, Michael and Kelly. Kelly was the oldest and Marilyn was a single mom making her living as a real estate agent. She was bright, busy, compassionate, and was all around a great mother. Her daughter wrote this poem and she,
It's a really loving, sad poem. It'll make you cry if you're an emotional person on the internet. The next day, July 1st, 1993, the police found Maryland's 1993 black Mazda 626 in the motel parking lot in the Bay City. They questioned the people from the apartment complex where the crime happened. And a guy said that he did see two people that fed that description leaving the house and taking that black sports car.
After they found the car, they asked witnesses nearby who they saw and seeing if they found anybody that matches the description of Eric and James. When they got back to the station, somebody was waiting on them. Corey Jordan, Jonathan's friend that was chilling with them at the house. He was like, listen, I know this story. I think that I can point you in the right direction. I think I've got a clue. He tells the police...
About how the day before Marilyn died, he was hanging out with Jonathan, James, and Erica. And he was like, listen, they were talking about robbing and stealing and killing. And looking for white ladies. They said it in my face. I didn't say nothing. I didn't say nothing. I just...
He was like, you know, half the time you think they playing, half the time I'm sitting there like this is an awkward conversation. And he was like, I didn't think that they were actually going to do it. Like at the end of the day, you know, we was probably drinking, probably smoking, you know. I don't know if they were drinking or smoking. I'm assuming that they were drinking or smoking. You know, they was talking shit. You know, niggas was talking about they was tired of being broke. So I can relate. But when this happened.
I knew it. The police take Corey's statement and they let him go and they begin searching for Erica and James. The next day, on July 2nd, 1993, they find Erica and James at a motel in Bay City, not far from where they dumped Marilyn's car. In a drawer in the motel, they find a knife that matches the set from Marilyn's house. The cops are taking them back to Houston and on the way, Erica confesses and so does James.
But his story made Erica look like the ringleader. While Erica's statement said that James threatened to kill Audria if she didn't help him. She said she was taken hostage by James and was in the wrong place at the wrong time and she didn't mean to get caught up in the situation. James' statement said that it was Erica's idea to kill Marilyn and that she is the one who actually stabbed her. The cops don't know who to believe at this point.
A week after the murder, an autopsy is done and it documents multiple cuts and stab wounds. One reached from the front to the back of Marilyn's neck, penetrating a vertebra. Another went into her neck, resulting in the incision of her jugular vein.
She also had wounds that were consistent with self-defense and wounds on her hands that went into the bones and fingers. She had contusions on her head that were consistent with being hit with a statue, being slammed so hard against her head that it could have been done by two people. The blood from the fingerprint and the palm print on the door matched Marilyn, but while the blood was Marilyn's, the fingerprints were Erica's. The butt they found in Marilyn's car belonged to James.
Finally, they're like, listen, we've got enough evidence to charge them both, so it doesn't matter who we believe. We'll charge them both and let the jury decide. So they charged them both with capital murder, and they were denied bond and stayed in jail until they awaited their two separate trials. ♪♪
I have an audible boo thing and I am so excited to share her with y'all. This episode is brought to you by the Professionally Silly Podcast. Join Amber Smiles-Jones weekly as she goes through all of the things in life that's just, well...
silly. This podcast, you guys, I'm actually a huge fan of. It is the perfect break in my day. I think of this podcast as like the morning show with a lot of different random events, and Amber Smiles has one of the most amazing personalities that really brings these stories to life. Some people describe her as a morning show, something that you can listen to in the morning, but personally, I listen to her on my way home from work to get a nice relaxing laugh after a long day. Not only does she have a podcast, Professionally Silly,
She also has a YouTube page called Professionally Silly. She also has a YouTube page where she dives into all things paranormal. It's called Paranormal Blacktivity. She puts her black card and her poor cousin's black card on the line to go on adventures and find spirits. You'd be surprised how many scary things that you can find and how many times the spirits know her.
and sometimes how these spirits are racist. Check out Professionally Silly anywhere that you listen to podcasts. Check out her YouTube page, Professionally Silly, as well as Paranormal Blacktivity. Thank you to the Smile Squad over at Professionally Silly where they take being silly serious. Now let's get back to the show. Streaming October 6th on Paramount+. First place I learned about death was a pet cemetery. Dead things buried in that land would come back.
There's something else. Something's wrong with Timmy. He needs time to adjust. That's not Timmy. Something's fucking driven him. Sometimes dead is better. Pet Sematary. Bloodlines. Rated R. Streaming only on Paramount+.
James' trial lasted less than a week. The prosecutor said that he was no stranger to crime and he did not feel any remorse for the murder of Marilyn. The defense doctors said that James' HIV progressed to AIDS and that he only had about three to five years to live. So they were trying to say that, you know, due to his health, he's not going to pose as a danger to society. They tried to do a Bill Cosby defense.
Right, right. But the prosecution was not having that shit at all. They were like, no, baby, you've been running in and out of these jail walls ever.
HIV or not, that's not an excuse for murder. So on May 19th, 1994, the jury took less than an hour to find James guilty and sentence him to death by lethal injection. Erica's trial began on November of 1994. She was 21 years old. During the jury selection, the prosecutors attempted to remove as many black jurors as possible. It worked. There were eight men, four women,
And only three people of color. Erica was given a public defender, Charles Brown. And Charles Brown had never had a capital murder charge case before.
ever in his life he did not have enough skill to represent her he did not know how or did not care or did not have the resources to investigate and present evidence of the fact that erica could possibly be brain damaged it got no testing done on her i think that would have been the first thing that i did as a defense attorney like yeah all right you've had a hard life
let's get a doctor to back this up. He didn't do that. Didn't talk about anything that she had gone through or endured any of the rape, the sexual abuse, the trauma, the shelters. He told nothing about her life during court. When the investigators just kind of came up with what they wanted to come up with about her past and whatever they said, he was like, great, I don't have to find any more evidence.
He never interviewed Jonathan, even though they were living at Jonathan's place. He said that he didn't talk to Jonathan because he said that Jonathan didn't seem interested. But which what does that even mean?
That doesn't make sense because, you know, Jonathan was at the courthouse every single day. It's his sister and his lover. If anybody's interested, it's fucking him. He also did not interview Erica's mother. And later when they asked him why he didn't ever interview Erica's mother, he said that she was unpleasant to talk to. Do your job. Okay. It's your job. People go to work and speak to unpleasant people every day.
I think that I just think you were just fucking racist and you just did not know how to talk to a black woman or black people and did not care to. She might have been unpleasant to talk to. That does not stop you or clear you from having to do your job. Right. So the defense doesn't call many witnesses. And when they do, they don't question them for too long. Very let's just get this over with type of approach.
They called the director at both of the shelters that Erica and her children fled to to escape the abuse. They said that Erica was in a lot of pain and wanted divorce and was seeking assistance, and she suffered from genetic depression.
They called Erica's grandmother to testify, but her testimony only lasted five minutes. Like, it takes longer to get sworn in, damn it. And then they don't even ask her about Erica's childhood, her teenage years, even though she was a witness to all the abuse when Erica was younger.
He never does a neuropsychological evaluation of Erica. He only calls one psychologist, Dr. Priscilla Ray, a court-appointed psychiatrist who only interviewed Erica for two hours. This was not some ongoing thing. It was like an intake meeting and decided to make a decision based off of that. Life decisions. You know what I mean? Life decisions, yes.
She did not perform a clinical evaluation to medically diagnose her. She only offered a vague opinion that Erica was depressed and unlikely to pose a danger in society in the future, which I mean, I guess at least she said something kind of positive about me. But like we could really dig in here and dig up some things that would create sympathy within the court.
And that's the whole thing you're trying to do on the defense is create sympathy, make them feel bad for her. But, you know, there's like always you're supposed to look into the circumstances and the health and the well-being and like her state of mind and her mental intelligence and her maturity. All of that is affected.
She's not saying that she didn't do the crime. So you know that she's about to get a harsh punishment. And the jury has to say yes to three questions for her to get this capital punishment. The first one is, did the defendant act deliberately? And I think we can all agree that yes, she acted deliberately. Was the defendant's conduct unreasonable in response to any provocation offered by the deceased? I think that we can agree yes to her conduct was not acceptable at all.
And then the last question is, was there a probability that the defendant will commit future acts of violence that will pose a continuing threat to society? That's the one that you have to prove. You have to prove the jury on. And that's why this is so important. Knowing her background, knowing that she was just a victim of her circumstances and she was wrapped up with the wrong person, making her in the wrong place at the wrong time. You know, like she did not have a record.
She had not gotten any trouble before. James at least was in and out. Like, I could see you saying yes to all three. And they didn't even, like, fight for her to try to get that final one to say no. So at least she was like, girl, you was going to prison. You know, you was going to prison. But could you have gotten life versus death? A simple yes or no question.
And that final one is really what they dropped the ball on. The defense, they also sit back and did not object when the prosecution used racist and sexist language throughout the entire trial. They were like bullying Erica. They said...
She had a, quote, poor reputation for being peaceful. The defense did not object when they called Erica a predator or a jackal. The defense did not speak up when they defeminized her. And they said, quote, she may be a woman, but she's no lady. And her actions have proven that.
Bro, I cannot tell you how, I don't know, this is just like one of my triggers, being like told what a lady is and what a lady looks like. Who the fuck are you to tell me that I'm not a fucking lady? And none of y'all are gentlemen. Let's keep it straight. Let's keep it straight. But you know what? I get it from the older ladies more. And I'm just like, mm.
because I speak. No. Because I have an opinion? No. Because a woman is supposed to know her place and sit back and be quiet and just take whatever comes at her. Right. And then you wonder why I act...
violently. I'm talking about myself, not about her. But like just defeminizing women, especially black women in the court system. That's what they love to do because A, I was thinking this to myself and I haven't seen any studies on it. So I'm just sitting here thinking to you all. But I was looking at pictures of like white women in prison, their prison photos versus black women and what I can take away from it.
as somebody from the outside looking in. I'm like, man, these white women are at least looking like their hair is halfway done. They're at least looking like they're getting access to the proper shampoo. Black women, then they're pictures you need. It's hard out here to get access to the proper shampoo. I mean, but still, like I'm saying, like,
But you don't give these women the opportunity to look like anything. And then with racism piled on top of that and what you think black women look like, and then put them in front of a jury... Where they're judged on everything. Their appearance, their sound of voice. Everything. Erica, at the time, she was like a round-faced, cute-faced girl. But once this trial started happening, and as she got older, she's a bigger girl. And so now it's like, oh, this...
big amazon of a woman is a predator we can't everybody looking ooh be scared you strip her of her femininity and therefore strip her of any type of humanity just to get a conviction of death the prosecution even begins opening statements portraying erica as the mastermind of the murder who only cared about robbing and didn't mind killing for a car
They made Corey Jordan take the stand and tell the jury about how they made this plan. She says, well, it's not really hearsay. He heard it. They made the medical examiner testify about the severity of Marilyn's wounds. He said that her cause of death was caused by a five and a half year
inch deep stab wound the knife remained lodged in her vertebrae until he did the autopsy he said the he said that the blow was so powerful that it is possible that the final blow could have been conducted by two people then they had the crime scene investigator testify about the bloody finger it was like a bloody handprint but they were able to make make a fingerprint and it matched erica the
They really hounded on the bloody fingerprint. Like, Erica is saying, like, yes, there's a bloody fingerprint. Like, there was blood on my hands. Like, I did... She's not denying that she did it. But they really harped on that. It's more of an argument of whose idea it was. Right. So, in the defense's closing arguments...
They relied on the psychologist's report and they asked the jury to consider Erica's background, her record, and her emotional instability. They wanted the jury to remember, you know, she's 19, she's a mother of three. They're doing this last plea to be remorseful even though they haven't been doing the entire trial. In the prosecution's closing arguments, they totally dismissed the defense's claim that Erica had any type of abuse.
They accused her of making it up and said that this is just, you know, scared girl narrative. You know how these women folks be in Texas. These women folk are awful, right?
They asked her, you know, did you have any bruises, any scratches? Like you tell us that you're being physically abused and there's no fear. And I don't get it because what kind of excuse is that? That just goes to show that they didn't go back to these other police, those other police reports, because I know what those are. What police reports? You know what I'm saying? Seems like every time she went, they didn't file one. They was just like, oh, just go get yourself to safety.
You're right. Now that I think about it. But also, she wasn't in an abusive household at the time that this happened. They also talked about her being a mother. They went in on her talking about she was a bad mom. And that probably the best thing for those children is the fact that Erica will not be playing a role in their upbringing. That because she's not going to be in her children's life, she's not going to affect the way that they turn out. And when they say that, the defense...
doesn't object doesn't say anything doesn't you can't just be who you cannot just be ragging on me like that that's court is hard i don't think i can commit murder because i'm not gonna be able to sit through a trial y'all gonna be talking too much shit about me to my face and i don't think i can handle it and i'm just gonna get in more trouble and more trouble
Stop talking about me. So the mostly white jury finds Erica guilty of capital murder on March 1st, 1995. It only takes them 30 minutes to deliberate. And two days later on March 3rd, it's time for her to go through her sentencing hearing. The prosecution calls 11 witnesses to testify about how Erica deserves a death penalty for this crime. They call Jerry's ex-wife Paula. Oh, I know she has something to say. Um. God, I didn't. Because first of all. How did I miss that?
I just know, first of all, you took this man from me. And just look at you. You was bad for him, bad for, just, ugh. I just know she had some things to say. I never liked her, ever. Like, why would she? She took your man. Paula said that she knows Erica lured some guy into the street for Jerry to drive by and shoot and kill because she saw them do it.
Paula maybe Paula was set free because you obviously know this nigga ain't shit maybe Paula was set free she's like if you go back to the year of 1991 Eric was charged with a crime surrounding the situation that night of the shooting she's like listen I've seen this all go down I was a witness to it almost got charged but you know I recanted my statement but now she's
On the jury stand under oath saying that I did actually see them. They also had two of Erica's cellmates tell the jury that Erica bragged about the murder of Marilyn after the TV played the news about the crime in the Harris County Jail. During the penalty phase, the defense again didn't mention Erica's mental illness or physical ailments. They didn't mention that she's a survivor of domestic violence, abuse, rape, gang rape or neglect.
and Erica was sentenced to death by lethal injection on March 31st, 1995. Soon after she was sentenced to death, Erica began to become more depressed. She began to disassociate even more. After a year on death row, her execution date was set for April 20th, 1998. When Erica was found guilty, her and her mom started to, you know, talk a little bit more. They became closer. Their relationship actually became a little bit of something different.
and mom started to actually like care for erica um i mean you know it's a little late but the moment did come that they were having to reconciliation the years leading up to erica's execution date were just filled with filing appeals after appeals after appeals after appeal she appealed for a new lawyer it was denied she appealed for a better treatment it was denied she was starting to feel like okay there's no hope
The state of Texas got all this money, but they are not giving one crumb of resource to help me out. I obviously am not a human, you know, fuck it at this point. So on November 7th, 1997, after receiving another denied appeal, she wrote a letter to the appealing court saying, I wish my appeal immediately to be stopped and my execution date to be carried out as promptly as possible.
When her mom found out about this letter, she was so upset. She was so hurt. She was like, I can't believe that my daughter had just given up this hope. And she decided to reach out to Reverend Jesse Jackson. She writes him a letter because Erica is like, I'm not going to recant saying that I want my execution date to go on as possible until I hear some type of sign or see some type of sign or if, you know, God gonna have to speak to me.
Her mom was like, okay, well, maybe if she sees Jesse Jackson, then she'll keep Hope alive. Well, Jesse Jackson, he mobilized his forces and contacted the Amnesty International. They were able to find a replacement team of lawyers for Erica. Her main attorney is Alan Wright, and he immediately began working for Erica Shepard, and he was working for her pro bono. After Jesse Jackson spoke with Erica, Erica was like, well, here's the sign from God, Reverend Jesse Jackson right here.
And she wrote a new letter to the appealants board and said that yes, she wanted to keep putting in appeals and to keep trying to appeal this execution. On May 1st, 1999, she wrote a letter to the board about the treatment that they were having in the facility. And in this letter...
She, of course, says, you know, my name is Erica Shepard. She talks about the she talks about that she's in prison and that she's on death row. She says that they don't have access to a water fountain, that they're housed with in the same unit as the psych patients. When people tour the facility, they're thinking that the death row girls are the psych patient girls.
um she's in her cell sometimes 24 hours a day but the law says that she's supposed to get it um at least like three hours out she's not getting that she's only getting like an hour out at most if she gets that she's saying that they want her to work but she's not getting anything to work and because she is not working they put her in isolation and say that she did that on her own she decided to be in isolation
I mean, she was talking about the multipurpose room with like what the standard is. She basically lines out what the standard is supposed to be like. They're supposed to be checkers. They're supposed to be chests. There's nothing. They're literally just sitting in empty boxes. There's supposed to be some things in the prison because they are still humans that she's not getting. And she's asking the board why. Which prison in Texas. Soon after this letter, but also still in 1999, James dies in prison due to complications from his HIV AIDS disease.
Erica continues to file appeals and was granted a stay of execution. She filed a writ of habeas corpus in the federal district court arguing that her trial lawyer, Charles Brown, was ineffective and that the use of unadjudicated offenses or crimes that she wasn't found guilty of to secure her death sentence violated the U.S. Constitution.
Additionally, her right to equal protection was violated since the prosecution didn't allow many black jurors. Both the federal district court and the U.S. Court of Appeals denied her appeal and her claims. The judge, Susan Brown, recommended that Erica's death sentence be vacated, saying that the trial counsel had failed to present evidence.
Evidence that would aid the jury in understanding the connection between the evidence of the applicant's background and the character and the issue of mitigation. Another judge, Carolyn King, a federal appellate judge, described Erica's life history as so, quote, horrific, traumatic and abusive that it could have, quote, persuaded a jury to spare her life, end quote.
However, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals rejected Judge Brown's recommendation. During this, a federal judge, Nancy Atlas, agreed with Judge Brown that her counsel was ineffective, but she was required to defer it under federal law. Judge Carolyn King said, quote, Erica Shepard was sentenced by death by a jury that did not know she had brain damage and the cognitive ability of a 14-year-old.
They only heard isolated snippets of the extensive abuse and trauma that she suffered throughout her life, end quote. But again, her appeal was denied. After this was denied, the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyer Association accused the appellate court of appointing unqualified, uncaring attorneys and accused the legislators of not adequately funding the compensation of new attorneys that ultimately kills their clients.
During her post-conviction mental health evaluation, she was evaluated by two psychologists. The first one determined that Erica's intellectual functioning is lower than 90% of others her same age. She struggles to reason, plan, problem solve, learn from experience, and use good judgment. She is emotionally dependent and passive and is easily swayed by peer influences. Her mental age is equivalent to
to 14.9 years old. They didn't even round you up. Another psychologist explained that Erica's trauma and mental disabilities left her susceptible to mental...
exploitation and victimization. Erica petitioned to the U.S. Supreme Court on December 21st, 2020. It was denied on May 21st, 2021. That means that the government is now likely to set an execution date very soon. Because of this, the Cornell Center on the Death Row Penalty Worldwide requested the help of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights on June 15th,
2021 to acquire the United States to protect the rights of Erica Shepard. They write a letter to the U S saying that the prolonged solitary confinement she has continued and will continue will harm her physical wellbeing, psychological, as well as her emotional wellbeing. Today, Erica has been on death row for 27 years. She has been in solitary confinement the entire time due to her ailments.
According to Texas law, death row inmates are not allowed to have contact with other prisoners if they are not participating in the work program. She's not participating in the work program. Why is she not participating in the work program, you ask? Well, Erica suffers from a degenerative spinal condition that makes her unable to stand up or walk without a walker. So she's just...
laying in death row she's had physical problems walking since 2010 but the texas department of criminal justice refuses to provide her with a walker until 2014 four years later you just need a walker because they didn't think she needed it until one day she literally could not get up
off of the seat the ceos had to get her they had to get her up and like not just like one or two ceos erica's a big girl they had to get a whole bunch of ceos to get her up and they were like okay i guess she needs a walker i guess i do right even though all this happened the texas department of corrections still refuses to accommodate her disabilities any further
They have not given her a wheelchair. It's 2020. What year is this friend? 2022? 2014. She got a walker. She ain't got shit since. Right now, she's at the point where she is unable to stand up. They get like able-bodied inmates to help her get from place to place to get from her cell to her visitation area. And it...
Takes about 45 minutes for them to get her up, help her get ready and then get her to the visitation areas for those times that she has visitors. She gets one hour of visitation and it has come to the point where she's unable to even walk to the toilet in her cell and she damn sure can't walk to the shower down the hall.
And then, although she can't do any of those things, when she is escorted and helped to the showers, she has to be handcuffed immediately to walk down the hall. I can't sit up. You gonna handcuff me too?
And then, you know, if you are trying to walk or if you are trying to get some type of momentum, you need your hands to help give you some oomph. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying. You just say oomph. And all I can think of is oomph. Oomph. Na, na, na.
It's probably how I feel getting up. And you need your hands to help you with that. But you know how, like, even when you're running, they say pump your arms, your legs go further. Yeah, you get more power behind yourself. It's the same thing. You got to get more power even when you walk in. That's why we walk. We swing our arms. But she's cuffed to the front. They slowly walk her to the one hour of recreation that she gets. They slowly walk her to her quick shower that she's able to get.
Of course, Erica is no longer able to do any type of activity. And even though this is still going on, every time that she leaves, comes in, goes to appeals, comes from visitation, they still strip search her while she struggles to stand up and cuff. At this point, showering is A, too painful, and it becomes a whole ordeal that Erica only gets to shower about twice a week. Erica spends...
between 22 to 24 hours a day in her concrete cell. She is not allowed to put up pictures, letters, calendars. She's not allowed to have any type of decoration.
She has no access to TV, educational opportunities, or even human contact. She can only read limited books and letters that are sent to her. And she has not seen the outside in about three years. However, she does maintain contact with all three of her children, Habert, Manchi, and Audria. And she is currently a grandmother of several children. All right, y'all. That is the end of the story. It is time for... Well, I'm not black. I'm old-fashioned.
I ain't do it, but if I did, this is how I would have got away with it. I ain't do it, but if I did, you're going to kill a woman, leave her in her home, and the first thing you want to do is ride her stolen car around the city? No, let's back it up even further. You want to kill a woman in her home?
in her home but you don't make sure that there's not somebody going to come back and find her pick somebody who lives alone so that her body will be there for a few days and you can get away you know what i mean and they discussed that they discussed that and still did not do that
Do not rush. If this is going to be the plan that you take, you're going to need to stalk your victims for a little minute. Make sure that they're really the victim that you're looking for. What can you tell from eyeing them across the street from the parking lot? She could have been a certified black belt. You could have went in there and got your ass kicked, okay? Because them dull-ass knives. Right. She could have knocked them through.
They didn't even have a real weapon. She'd have been like, come on, kicking a knife out their hands. Just fucking them up, you know? You don't know who... Be better. And then you're at the hotel. Like, it's just... I heard they picked up a friend along the way to the hotel. Like, you're doing too much showboating for somebody who just left. Literally yesterday said that...
I am so broke I would murder for it. In front of people. I ain't do it, but if I did, if we're going to discuss a plan, we're not going to do it in front of people who are not involved in the plan. Right. Even saying it in front of Jonathan, like Jonathan probably would have, you know, helped keep them together or, you know, not said anything. But Corey said, uh-uh, I did not come over here for this shit. I came over here to have a beer and smoke a blunt. And y'all talking about murder. Right.
Y'all are not my people. I wonder if, like, people get involved in these cases and they're just like... I was thinking about this with Corey. I was like, what if, you know, you hear a case and all of a sudden you're like, is that my murder when I was there? Like, damn it. Stupid. I ain't do it, but if I did...
I probably would have just slept outside of that shelter and been back in the next day. It would have been a hard night, but I would have sat out there. Y'all gonna have to watch me be out here. It's hard to be stubborn like that with your kids, you know? And they all young. Yeah. I ain't do it, but if I did, we're not holding on to the fucking knife. I'd rather re-wash that knife, like, really get the fingerprints, and put it back to where she has a complete set. You know what I mean? Like, but keeping the murder weapon on you...
doesn't sound too smart if y'all saying the woman wasn't dying then run y'all did it right the night before you tried you failed you went back home get the shit fuck the car you had it for a night a night was it worth it and go back home well go back to somewhere i ain't do it but if i did i would not have left the car in the city close to me in my hotel that i'm not staying now staying yet but i guess they ain't have the ride but like
You could have left it at a park. Like, the people see you. The people saw you check in. I didn't do it, but if I did, always get a police report. If you're going and telling the police, because that's what makes your case later. So now you're on trial, and they have no police reports to refer back to. And I think this kind of, like, involves, like, a job and everything. If you're at a job and you're experiencing some type of, you can...
some type of abuse or whatever but you're like afraid to tell you can anonymously report to the EEOC so that if shit goes up in the funds they can you can file a report with them and say please don't tell my boss or inform my employers but when shit hits the fan you now have a paper trail to back you up so should anything happen to you down the line they thought you kept your mouth shut they thought you didn't have a record but bitch here I am
So I think she would have did a lot better with some paperwork on her side. I ain't do it, but if I did, we're not going to brag about the crime in jail. If your trial has not passed, don't say shit. Because anything you say can and will be used against you. They're telling you this, people. You have to listen. And then you have to know that everybody in here has a...
has a case that they are trying to get rid of that they are trying to get out of prison for and you got the high profile case so yeah girl i would i would shit i don't know you i don't know you from adam and i'm trying to go see my family all right y'all it is uh
Time for some reviews. Time for some reviews. A review from you, a review from me. Thank you so much. A review from you, a review from me. Thank you so much.
Alright y'all, if you want to leave us a review, you can do that on Apple Podcasts, on Audible, and you can also email us reviews. If you are listening on Spotify, thank you so much for listening on Spotify, you can rate us. Unfortunately, I can't leave a review, but you can email it to us. But if you rate us, that also really helps boost what we have going on, get our podcast out there, and you know, spread the word. Tell a friend. If you like the podcast. If you don't like the podcast, tell absolutely nobody ever in your life.
This one says, always playing five stars from Rich. I usually listen to music when at work or the game or whatever. Now it's only you guys. I'm flying through the whole catalog and I can't get enough. Keep doing what y'all doing. Real shit. Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it so dearly. This one says, kudos to the both of you.
I love a good true crime podcast. Y'all broke the mold with this one. The spin you put on telling these stories, priceless. I love it. Keep it up, ladies. We certainly will try. We'll try our best.
best all right this is the end of the show if you want to keep up with us you can email us at sisters who kill podcast at gmail.com you can follow us on twitter at sisters who kill follow us on instagram at sisters who kill pod follow us on tiktok at sisters who kill podcast you can leave us a voice message saying a voice review or i didn't do it but if i did this is how i would have got away with it on anchor.f
If you want to send Tazzy super special questions about anything in the world, you can do that at tazzytalks at gmail.com. That's T-A-Z-Z-Y talks at gmail.com. If you want to, that's it. If you want ad space, you can also email us. Ad space is coming, coming, coming. Anything else? Talk to us. We talk back.