Deep Dive
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The players this week are John Strafford, our victim, Charles Ingram, Rosalie's 17-year-old son, Wallace Ingram, Rosalie's 16-year-old son, Sammy Lee Ingram, Rosalie's 14-year-old son, James Ingram, Rosalie's 12-year-old son, and
And Rosalie Ingram, our murderess. Not much is known about Rosalie's background. Literally, if you go on Wikipedia and Google her name, it says born, question mark. Was she or wasn't she? Right. I want to assume that she was born in like 1908 because there's a postcard that we'll talk about later. And it says that she was 42 in 1950. So...
but an article, another article said that she was born in 1902. So it's a little conflicting because, you know, the early 1900s and black people and 19,
not making birth certificates because America does not care which is the main reason why Tassie makes this argument so I'm going to make this argument for you friend if you sign up for Ancestry.com which does not sponsor this podcast in any way shape or form I feel like if you're black you should get a discount because your history can only go back so far
Then you want to be like, oh, you can get your third and second cousins. Those are hardly even family. I want to know my roots going back, not wide back. Right. And I can only go back to a very limited spot.
So anyways, what we do know is that her and her husband were sharecroppers and they had 14 children together, but two of them ended up passing away. So they had 12 living children. Her husband also ended up passing away and she was left a widow and mother with her 12 children on the farm. And, you know, the story takes place in Ellaville, Georgia, which is about 17 minutes north of America's Georgia. Basically, it's the country.
We're from the city. It's the country part of Georgia. Now, in that area, it's the type of place where everybody had a farm. If you're black, you have a farm. If you're white, you have a farm. Most of them are sharecroppers. And her land that she was sharecropping, it bordered this white man's land named John Stratford. Now, I say his land, it's his farm, but both of them are sharecroppers. This gentleman, not a gentleman, John Stratford, he had a wife, but allegedly...
According to some records... They said that John had a tendency of getting drunk... And when he was drunk... He'd make his way across the road... And try to make sexual passes at Miss Rosalie...
It's the audacity of white men thinking that, I mean, we've seen it so many times. Like it's the audacity of white men thinking that they have some type of autonomy over a black woman's body and that no one can tell them no. And that is not true. So who made these passage passage, she was totally turn them down. Now this is sharecropping in Georgia and like 1945. Okay. It's,
For those of you that don't know what sharecropping is, it's like agricultural labor system where like if the landlord owns the land and you're able to live on the land and farm on the land. But at the end of every season, that landlord is getting paid with sharing those crops and the landlord is, you know, paying for everything. Those tools, sometimes the cattle, the landlord provides that and you in turn work the land and get sharecropping.
give them their percentage and you get a piece back but it's really just a system to keep you um yeah basically really and it became really popular especially in the south after slaves were emancipated so on november 4th 1947 john comes to rosalie while she's out in the cornfield and accuses her of allowing her livestock onto his property something about like a donkey so it was like
an ass okay so he's like get your damn ass or i'm gonna shoot him she's like what do you mean you're gonna shoot my animals and then he says um then he starts you know bitching about his ass and he's going on and on how he's gonna shoot her donkey and then he says some sly racist shit about how he should whoop her and she's like if you're gonna whip me i'm right here and so rosalie then informs him that hey you must have forgot that land that you have and the land that i have
We both don't own it. And all of this land belongs to the same person, Mr. Dillinger. Therefore, the mules, the donkeys, the asses, whatever you want to call them, they also belong to Mr. Dillinger. So are you going to shoot Mr. Dillinger's...
The person that we both owe money to? You poor, I'm poor, we poor together. Why you acting like you all high and mightier than me? Of course, all this back talk was making this white man mad. So he hits her with the butt of his shotgun. And Rosalie's son, they're right outside working on a fence. And they see all this going on. And they're like, not my mama.
So, they go up to her and they're wrestling the gun away from John. And next thing we know, John is dead. Right? The police come and they didn't act quickly because there was some jurisdictional issues, which... Have you ever been in a situation like that? Bro. It feels like the most unnecessary shit ever.
It's like, y'all the police, ain't y'all connected? Right. No, you have to go to this county. No, you got to go to this county. Well, it happened .1 meter on this county line. I remember we was something with Bree and we had to call the police and we waited for them to come and they get out there and they was like, where you live? You need to call Knox County. And we was like, ain't y'all Knox County? And he was like, no, we're Knox City. You need Knox County. I was like, God damn, come on. We already had to wait for you to get here. Exactly. Exactly.
john's dead body was like on the line between shelly county and sumter county both the county's police force participated in the investigation and they said that they found evidence that there were two separate struggles one south of the body and one farther north and closer to john's house now the police are saying that there was evidence
An initial altercation and then the sons chased after him and attacked him again, right? And the coroner says that he died as a result of penetration to the brain by some type of instrument in the back of the head. So the police conclude that John died after being hit numerous times with a hoe, like a garden hoe, a claw hammer, and a rifle.
Now, when Rosalie and her sons were questioned, they said that there was only one scuffle between the family and John, right? So Rosalie and her four sons, Charlie, Wallace, Sammy Lee, and James, were all arrested. And, like, Charles, the oldest, is 17. James, the youngest, is 12. So all in between here, they arrested all of them. Didn't give a fuck how old you are, who you was. Y'all was getting locked up. Them and their mama. Mm-hmm.
But then James, the youngest, was later released and they keep asking all of them what happened. Just tell us what happened. Just tell us what happened. And both Rosalie and her sons maintain the story that there was only one altercation. They were all taken to separate jails and, of course, had no counsel given to them. Right.
So they sit in there and they wait till they can get the 12 white folks and take that shit to trial, bitch. So on January 26, 1948, the trial began at Shelley Superior Court. The prosecution says that the conflict happened because of a mule, the ass that Marat was talking about. They say he kicked my mule.
It was that mule, Paul. I'm telling you, it was that mule. They said that after John came over to Rosalie, that her sons just gathered around and beat him to death with the farming tools as he tried to run away from the altercation. They stated that the reason that there were two altercations was because Rosalie said this and Rosalie said that and yada, yada, yada, bullshit, bullshit, like...
they're just like, oh, Rosalie told us this story and Rosalie takes a stand and she's like, I did not say that. I didn't say none of that. She said, in fact, what I did say was that yes, John was angry about his mules on the property. My mules. Well, they're not really hers, right? They're nobody's mules. I mean, they're both of their landlord's mules. Because I'm going to tell Mr. What's-His-Face that you shot his mule. I'm not
I'm not going to be charged for that. Yeah, so she says John was angry about the mules on the property and he threatens to shoot her. And then he threatens her with a knife and then he comes back later with his rifle and he hits her upside the head. And then she says she was able to get the gun from him
and hit him in the back of the head in self-defense and then she says that wallace her 16 year old struck john but none of the other sons did wallace and sammy lee sammy lee's 14 took the stand and they corroborated their mother's story there are no other eyewitnesses to the crime but john's wife did take the stand and she was like six years only 130 pounds he is a weak
Man, there is no way that he would do something like this. I just know it. So she got up there and she cried her right woman tears. And now Rosalie and the boys did end up getting a court appointed attorney, Mr. Dykes, on the day of the trial. Like, wow.
Hi, nice to meet you. Let's shake some things up in here and give it our wrist shot, all right? And hope you don't get the electric chair. Yeah. He wasn't completely useless. He said that the Ingram family acted in self-defense, and he stated that John was trying to pull his dirty old white moves on this lady, and her sons weren't having that shit. Rightfully so, you know? Don't touch my mama. Don't touch my Doritos. So...
The trial of Rosalie Wallace and Samuel Lee only lasted one day.
Isn't that crazy? Charlie was in a second trial, a separate trial, right? So when the Shelley County Sheriff took the stand, he talked about what he saw when he arrived to the scene. And he says, I noticed the ground and the conditions there. And I saw that it had been piled up and scruffled. And apparently it had been done over there. And after I saw that, I noticed what kind of shoes Mr. John Stafford had on. And he had on some rubber boots. And them boots was rigid at the bottom.
Now I saw that some tracks were there by the body and I saw a number of tracks all around it and them tracks was good size men's shoes, you know? You know. You said I don't...
And he said, now I examined all the edges of the cotton patches and found the tracks leading from this cotton patch southwest of the body and coming into this cotton field. One went directly to the body and one went around the body. And when I say directly to the body, I meant directly.
where I saw the scuffling the medical examiner gets on the stand and says that in the back of his head were two holes and the holes like they probed down into the brain stems and they were sufficient enough to cause death it um those holes could have been done by a rifle it could have been done by a hoe or it could have been done by cattle you know you don't know and it
He was like, those type of injuries, you're usually probably, you're going to die quick. Like, it's pretty instant. It's the back of your head straight into your brain. The doctor testifies that he examined Rosalie on the day of the incident. He says, quote, that he stripped her down so that he could examine her chest and shoulders.
And found nothing except a bruise about two inches in diameter with an abrasion in the center of it, which was located between the eyebrow and her hairline of her forehead. So like right in the middle of her head, which means, which corroborates with the story of her being hit in the head with a rifle. Like the butt of a rifle? For sure. In the forehead? That's the only thing that she had on her. Sure does sound like a self-defense to me so far.
So the medical examiner is saying about that abrasion that it had to have come between with one single blow, just how it was shaped, how the bruise looked. And if it was two blows, if she was hit twice, it would have had to be the exact same spot. Like, you know how you're hit twice, but you can tell like it's off by a little. Yeah, it was only one. The police took the stand, you know, because they doing their thing. And he says that, listen, okay.
All of these statements that I'm telling you that they said, they were given of their free will and their own volition. Bullshit. Nobody was coerced. Nobody was talking to you and everybody was treated fairly and just here in the great state of Georgia. And this is what they said. We're not lying. We're the police. So the judge presiding over this case is Judge W.M. Harper. And he...
As the judge is supposed to do, he instructs the jury that the defendants could be found guilty or innocent of either manslaughter or murder.
So the distinction between voluntary manslaughter and murder is clearly stated by our code 261007, which provides, quote, in all cases of voluntary manslaughter, there must be some actual assault upon the person killing or an attempt by the person killed to commit a serious personal injury on the person killing or
Yeah.
Provocation by words, threats, menace, or contentious gestures shall in no case be sufficient to free the person killing from the guilt and crime of the murder. The killing must be the result of that sudden violent impulse of passion, supposed to be irresistible. For if there should have been an interval between the assault...
So basically we are trying to figure out if this second scuffle happened. So they're trying to, prosecution is trying to say he got scared of these boys and ran away and the boys chased him and beat him down.
They're saying, no, absolutely not. He came in. He came to us more than once threatening us and hit me in the face. Therefore, self-defense. And that was where the scuffle happened at that moment. Right. So no one is saying no scuffle did happen.
But you can't, we've seen this in multiple cases. If you, you can say it's self-defense, but if you leave to go get the weapon, if you come back, if you chase after that person, if you don't try to turn or walk away, that's when they come from. It doesn't come out of a, it's got to be impulse. And if it's like a revenge or something, then it's no longer self-defense.
It's no longer a voluntary marriage. I guess for the sons, you had to prove that they jumped at seeing their mother being attacked. Which, you know niggas ain't mama. Don't play. Don't play. So, on February 7th, 1984, a jury of 12 all-white men convicted Rosalie Ingram and her two sons of murder. And they were sentenced to die by electric chair.
They were due for execution on February 27th, 1948. The next day, on February 8th, that's when Charles, because remember he was in a separate trial, that's when his trial ended. And guess what, y'all? He was acquitted due to insufficient evidence. Hmm.
Is that right? So there also was a son, Jackson, that I really only saw in one newspaper article. And so I'm not sure, but I did see a son, Jackson, in one newspaper article. And in that article, it said that
What is it? Pittsburgh Courier published February 14, 1948. It said that Jackson was one of her sons and was sentenced to a year in prison because after John died...
I guess he took some type of money off of him. Maybe he had a change purse or something on him. And Jackson took it. A little more than some change now. Okay, it was a little more than some change. I'm looking at the article now. Thank you, Tazzy. It was $133, which... $133 in 1948 is worth $1,586.62. Well, hot damn.
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So, people all across the United States, they hear about this case and they're like, that's bullshit. Exactly what I've been saying. They're like, this case is fucked up. So, they're like, it's time to protest. Many people are outraged at the trial due to, one, the quickness, a day trial. The fact that they sentenced him to death and the secrecy behind the outcome. Like...
They weren't... You know, most people, they're ready to come out that courtroom like, this is what happened here today. We're proud of the work we've done. Justice.
And this one didn't go like that. And it was like something that water ain't clean, you know? So black and white people were equally disappointed and disgusted by this outcome. Yeah. I saw this video and it is the only video right now on YouTube. If you, if you YouTube her and it is this white man, he's like, yeah, they burned down my library. The, the clan burned down my library because I spoke out against her and her son's sentences. And yeah,
It was wild out here in Georgia because, you know, the Klan was pissed. What they say, what they say on Django? I'm going to kill you nigger lovers to death. That was that energy. It was. And he was, the man was like, you know, I know some Klan members that have openly told me they're Klan members and know me personally. But when I spoke out about this case right here, yeah, they came and they burned my library. I said, bet they did.
The NAACP got involved and they protested the death sentence. They sent petitions to Harry Truman and 1,600 branches of the NAACP went on alert. The Civil Rights Congress founded an all-woman national committee to free the Ingram family. They also received help from the Georgia Defense Committee and in the Pittsburgh Courier, which is an influential black newspaper at the time, brought attention to it by running several front page pieces about Rosalie and her son.
So on Mother's Day of 1950, everybody sent postcards to the president. At the time, the president was Harry Truman. And it was these postcards with...
Rosalie's picture on the front and it says Mother's Day card May 14th 1950 Mrs. Rosalie Ingram now 42 is a mother of 14 children two dead and a widow since August 1947 when her 64 year old husband died May 14th 1950 will be the third Mother's Day Mrs. Ingram has been in prison with her two young sons this mother is in prison because she defended her honor and her home
The sons are in prison because they defended their mother. On Mother's Day, May 14th, 1950, we honor and revere this widowed sharecropper and mother of 14
14 children with her dignity and courage. Make 1950 freedom year for Mrs. Ingram and her two sons. So that's the front of it. And then there's a letter on the back. Dear Mr. President, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Declaration of human rights and observance of Mother's Day have no meaning as long as innocent mother remains in prison. A proclamation of freedom for Mrs. Ingram will be a genuine Mother's Day greeting for all mothers and will resound throughout the world. And then you have to sign it and then you send it in. So then...
Like Harry Truman is getting a shit ton of postcards. I'm telling you block their mail. And then there was even, they started, they had to put everybody in a separate jail because the jailers and the sheriffs and all the counties that were in one of the sheriff's sheriff, DC Campbell, he was like, listen, y'all need to transfer them out of here because they're
people are calling the prison night and day, night and day. Like these Northern newspapers, these magazines, everybody wants to talk to her. Everybody wants to talk to us. And we can't even like control the jail. And they're like, everybody's like, yeah, get her the fuck out and we'll be good.
So she was moved to an undisclosed location days before her first appeal hearing. And she was appealing to get a new trial. You know, she's got the NAACP on her side now. So, you know, she's getting ready to appeal to get a new trial. Chaos. Niggas were not having it. A good old letter writing. Sometimes that shit work. Sometimes. Good old phone. On March 25th, 1948.
True.
And that they had been jailed separately and possibly coerced into giving false statements to the police because obvious. Right. Racism. South Georgia. Hello. Then he argues that the most that they should have received in a conviction was manslaughter because it was immediate defense. Right. Judge Harper was, quote unquote, moved.
And he's like, okay, this is what I'm going to do for you. I'll commute their sentences. Instead of being on death row, you can spend life in prison. But now you can't have no new child.
And it's like, what the fuck, dude? Like, what do you mean? The people of the country are not satisfied. They're still like, this isn't right. Which is good. Because a lot of times niggas will settle and be like, well, it's the best we could do. Right. And they was like, no, that's not good enough. Right. These people don't deserve to spend their life in prison because some white man came over to them and harassed them. Right. And see, I think it's...
had a lot to do with the time because they were just starting to come down on jim crow laws and be like okay i guess it's racist so they're like yeah this is fucking racist so a second wave of protest begins and the georgia supreme court still upheld their sentences so in 1952 the civil rights movement began to protest harder for her rosa and her son's sentencing trial
They tried and they said that there were extenuating circumstances. John was sexually harassing Rosalie and that her children responded in self-defense, like we're trying to say. However, the Georgia Pardon and Parole Board refused to parole them.
So Charles, the oldest brother, he started traveling around and he was fundraising for his mother and his brothers. And I saw an article where they were like, you know, they were getting donations from every church they could go. They could come by. They were trying to find anybody that could like donate.
help with this campaign to get his mother out of prison and his brothers out of prison. So the soldiers for truth and justice visited the Georgia governor. The governor at the time was Herman Tallmadge. And they were like, you know, we're here to discuss the case. We're here to show up. But his wife met them at the door and turned him away because they were like, oh, he's out hunting. And that was all they could get for that.
So in 1955, again, Rosalie and her two sons were denied parole and they were given no reason for the denial. They were just like, oh, no. In 1957, Georgia officials are like, okay, we are willing to parole Rosalie and her sons. But...
You know, justice, the wheels of justice, they move slowly. So it took another two years. So on August 26, 1957, after 11 years in prison, Rosa Lee Wallace and Sammy Lee Ingram were paroled and released from prison.
However, so after they were paroled, they, of course, you know, they set you up a job. You know, there's stuff that you have to do to meet the requirements of your parole. And one of the requirements of her parole and her son's parole is that they had to go to Atlanta and work for a drug. It was a black druggist in Atlanta. And that's where they were assigned. So.
So Rosa lived in Atlanta and she pretty much lived a quiet life until she died in 1980.
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So I have a devil's advocate question. Okay. Do you think the sons might have used excessive force? Did they take it too far? I feel like this is not the first time that her sons have seen some bullshit like this. I think before they daddy died, you know, daddy was like the buffer, you know, from this man in the family. But they see because they the boys. And then after he died, you know, mama got to take care of it.
And they've been seeing that shit happen for too long. And I think that they were outside minding, doing their chores with whatever they had in their hand. And their mama got hit in the face, you know? And she got it. She got a hit in there too, according to her. But the two holes in the back, I think that might be from the metal rake. I do. I think that...
They had whatever outdoor tools they had. And I think that two holes in the back and they weren't bullet holes. I think it was like a metal rake or something. And they just got. But like, who knows how many times this man has come over there and they seen stuff like that. I just boys can sometimes be hotheads. Oh, for sure. And I just wonder if it was on some not my mama shit.
Definitely. I mean, yeah, but was it taken too far? Because I feel like in that time... How many times has it been? How often has this come up? But I think in that time, you know, that's just not shit you can get away with. All this outcome is expected. I'm actually surprised they got off death row. Yo, did you see they was trying to, uh...
Their sentence for death was only 20 days after the end of the trial? Mm-hmm. That's crazy. I'm like, immediately? Not in a couple months or nothing? No. Y'all need to think about it. You have to act and act fast. I think that's what people did. And when people act and act fast, that's when innocent people are able to... And when people act and act fast and they're consistent together, that's how, like, people can get off a death row and...
Change can actually be enacted, but people have to be consistent and act and act together. All right, y'all, it's time for... Well, I'm not black. I'm on change.
I ain't do it, but if I did, this is how I would have got away with it. I ain't do it, but if I did, I'd have to tell the rest of the brothers to sit out. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like only one needed to come and handle it, right? It's a different situation than fighting somebody and jumping somebody. Yeah. And so, I think one of the sons was enough. Um...
I didn't do it, but if I did, I probably wouldn't have used so many different weapons because that's kind of giving. I think it was a lot of boys. Yeah. And everybody had one. Mm-hmm. Because everybody was out working, doing their job, minding their business. Mm-hmm. And this man came on to their side of the nobody-owned property that he tried to claim as his own. No, you have just as much right as I do. I ain't do it, but if I did, I would have bashed Mr. Head in now and think about having later. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
She should have just did them off herself. I think she'd have had a stronger case. It was just kind of like a quick, you know what I mean? I think, I don't know.
I ain't do it, but if I did, after I would have got his rifle from him, I would have just drawn it on him and left it at that and have your boys line up behind you. Me and my football team, you going to come get me? I know a mama that used to be like, I rent them out. You need somebody to move your stuff? Pay me. Yeah, man.
You got any more? Because you can't fuck with them white people. They're fucking scary down there. And they don't give a fuck about none of that shit. And they get away with so much of it, so why should they? Mm-hmm. Oh, parole or no parole. She paroled. She got out. She wanted parole. Yeah, she got out. Just sooner. Yeah, she left. She ended up living a pretty quiet life, which most people do because, like...
I don't want all this hullabaloo about me. I just want to live my nice, quiet life. That's all, folks. Yeah, I definitely, I guess all you can really hope is that she got out sooner. But at least she got out. We don't always get that ending. That's all, folks. Are you ready for some love?
Go and give it a five-star rating on Spotify before you delete the app if you don't have it. If you don't want it, that's fine. Go ahead and do that little five-star review and then you can delete the app and go back to whatever you prefer. Or stay there. You know we'll never be five again. We can do it. That's not how math works. If we work together, we can get there.
This is a review from Audible. So everybody that's on Audible, you can read, you can write reviews, and you can rate the podcast. So please do. This one says, this one is from Lady Diva. It says, awesome podcast. Awesome, awesome, awesome. Love this podcast. You ladies are real and raw. Keep rising, queens. But she gave us a four star. Mm-hmm.
I don't know why. I'm going to eat that. I'm going to eat that, okay? I don't know why Wendy's took away their Sawsome Sauce. What? Because she was like, awesome, awesome, awesome. Sawsome Sauce. I don't know why they got rid of it. Put that shit on everything. There's another person that said, my guilty pleasure, four stars. You know, I'm going to eat that four stars because we're still getting better, but I feel like it's coming. We're turning a corner. Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully, y'all can see the change. Every time we say that, they be like, mm-mm, can't.
Boo!
Okay, this review says best podcast ever. My girlfriend put me on to this podcast being that I'm a huge true crime fan. This podcast is truly impeccable. LOL. Every week the episode gets better and better. This will be a dope to see on TV one day. And the ads for the businesses actually aren't annoying. My wallet probably thinks different. LOL. But great job, ladies. Keep going. Keep being black and keep being excellent.
That's what I'm talking about. That's what's up. That's a review. That is a review, baby. That's a really great point, friend, because I'm glad that these ad spaces are annoying, but our ad responses have really kept us afloat this entire time. So we're really appreciative of them. So like go back to one that you were really interested in, go support them just the way, same way that they've supported us. So we're really grateful. Um,
But if you want to ask, if you have a small business, you can email us and get your ad on the show. You can email us at sisterswhokillpodcasts at gmail.com. Tazzle, get you back. You can also email us if you have case suggestions or if you just want to say hi. You can tweet us at sisterswhokill. You can follow us on Twitter.
You can follow us on Twitter at Sissas Who Kill. You can follow us on Instagram at Sissas Who Kill Pod. You can follow us on TikTok at Sissas Who Kill Podcast. And you can join the discussion group if you answer the questions. Anything from you, friend? Talk just as we talk back. Bye. Bye.