Where Are All The Black People
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Hey y'all, Chaz here. I just want to say it was so fun going to CrimeCon last week. We got to meet a lot of fans in person and kind of hang out with you guys, kind of, kind of. That was fun and really engaging with y'all for the first time. But I believe my favorite part

was the little Ted talk that we got to give and luckily we get to share it with everybody so take a listen let me know what you think what's going on everybody I'm Mariah and I'm Taz and we are the co-host of sisters who kill okay so let me know what y'all doing over here

For those of you who are new to us, This Is Who Killed is a, of course, true crime podcast where we strictly discuss black women who kill.

We talk about their lives from the time that they're born. We talk about things that they experienced growing up. We talk about what led up to the murder, the murder, the investigation, the trial, and where they're at in this present day. And we pick apart any injustices they may have faced along the way, anything that probably stems from social economic issues and kind of pinpoint where things could have been different and changed.

and we have our fun with it. We're a very lax, casual podcast, but we want to come here today and kind of question when we look around in this space, where are all the black people?

So first we want to of course thank CrimeCon for having us here. Kelly and Elise, thank you for making this happen. We were supposed to be at CrimeCon in Orlando, but due to the NAACP travel advisory, we decided to pull out of that CrimeCon. But the folks here welcomed us with open arms as we came back and gave us a platform to chit-chat on, and we're really excited about that.

A huge shout out to Shane from Black Label Podcasting who has been continuing to put our name out there and helping us get to where we are today. So some of you guys know who we are, obviously, but some of you guys don't. So a little bit about us. I'm not going to take up too much of your time. My name is Marah Williams. I have a background in theater.

definitely bullied my best friend here Taz to do this podcast with me because I thought that it was so so very important and if you look on our social medias you're probably going to just see my face because that was kind of our deal starting the podcast where Taz was like I don't want anybody to know who I am ever so

And that really works out because A, true crime, so protect your identity. And B, more limelight for me. But we really work out because I am definitely the outward energetic person and Tazzy is the person that keeps us all together. So you want to talk about yourself? Sure, just for a little bit. I'm Taz. I am the other half of Sisters Who Kill. I thank my friend for pushing me out here, but I...

I definitely prefer the behind the scenes. I'm the business side of this. And of course we both tell the story, but where she is, like she said, the marketing outside, I'm the business. I make sure the dollars come in and yeah, I think we can get started now. Yeah. So looking around, I kind of see everybody. Hey, how are y'all doing? And you guys have been around CrimeCon today. And one of the things that we just kept asking ourselves was where are all the black people? Like,

I know for a fact that my Titi has been watching True Crime on the iD Channel since I was very, very, very, very little. And she loves True Crime more than half the people here. But still, she's not in this space. And I was like, you know what? I've been watching iD Channel with her since I was a tot. And I never saw anybody telling the stories on TV that looked like me. So now I have the question,

Where are we in this space as a whole? So Taz, why do you think that having our platform and continuing to create platforms for black stories to be told, why do you think it's important? I think it's important because, one, nobody's going to tell a story like we do. I'm with you when you're right. I'm with you when you're right. You just can't do it like us. But it's important because, one...

A lot of times if we're not telling our stories, nobody else is. Which leads to erasure, not only of our history, but of the actual problem. Because if nobody's talking about the problem, nobody's working towards fixing the problem either. So it needs to be told. And these are the things that are happening in our communities. And these are the things that are happening in our spaces. And we have to push them. We see cases where...

Nobody is concerned. Like Benita Jacks, this woman killed all four of her kids. She was on welfare. The kids had counselors in the school. They had been checked on by DFAX. They said that they checked on them. They said that they checked on them, but then DFAX couldn't get in touch with them. They moved, and it was this state's problem, and this state didn't know that it was their problem, and nobody checked on them.

Seven months went by and the kids decomposed in the house while the mother was living there and nobody said anything. People did welfare checks and the police said, seems fine to me. They found the bodies because the government was coming to turn her lights off for not paying her bills. Not because anybody was concerned about the kids because a bill didn't get paid. Seven months and nobody's telling these stories.

But then you have situations where our stories do get told, like Angel Bumpus. Angel Bumpus, at the age of like 22, gets a traffic ticket. And they're like, all right, you got to turn yourself in. It's just regular traffic court. No big deal. She goes to traffic court. They give her whatever she's got to do. She gets fingerprinted. They say, well, you're a partial match on a cold case. And now you're arrested for murder. They do the math and everything.

At the time of the murder, she was 13 years old. And they're saying that she hurried away from school, rushed over five miles, can't even drive because she's 13, rushed over five miles, ran, killed this person, made it back home before anybody could notice, and was convicted all on a partial fingerprint. Now, it wasn't until people got a hold of these cases and started pushing her story that Angel finally got out.

a new trial and is now released from prison and now the charges are dropped so we see the differences that happen when the stories are told when stories are pushed when we're caring and what's happening when we're not i think that's really important because obviously i think that you and i are excellent storytellers and when we research these cases we work really hard to get every single detail but what we have constantly found is that when we're looking in media for cases for sources

we always feel like there's something missing. And that's why I think that our voices in this space are so important because we can provide context to situations that nobody else can because nobody else knows what it's like to be a black girl. You can say that,

that you're the biggest and greatest ally and you can have the white journalist that's going to tell all the stories, but unless you grew up as a black girl in a school district where no one cared about you, where your teachers were overwhelmed and your mom was an alcoholic, unless your first crime was literally to feed yourself, you don't know what it's like to grow up that way. And I feel like media was missing that

It was missing that part of the story. One of the cases that really, that a lot of people talk about that we've covered on Sisters Who Kill is Jasmine and Tasmia Whitehead. And for those of you that haven't listened to us cover that case, it's our very first episode. We actually went to high school with them. We saw them get arrested at school. It was the scandal when we were 10th grade. It was the big thing, but...

When we started researching the case now, when we started the podcast, we were at 26, 27.

We were like, you know what? This keeps saying that she had a problem with authority. Tazzy was always with ROTC, which they were in high ranks in ROTC. So did they have a problem with authority? Where's the bigger issue here? They said, well, the girls were always very nicely dressed and their hair looked good. And I was telling Tazzy, you know, that they were well taken care of. And I told Tazzy, I said, ain't no black mama gonna let their kid walk out the house looking crazy no matter what's going on in the house. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

And no one is telling that the context is not there. We know that if your mom is trying to apologize, the first thing she's going to say is, come on, let's go get some food. Look, I bought you a dress. You're going to look good. So, of course, on the outside, things are going to look hunky-dory, but we're missing that context of the cries for help. And I think that that's really missing in media and why our voices are so important. I also...

And I think that cultural context comes into play over and over and over again, not even in just in how a black mom apologizes. But when you listen to like white true crime podcasts, so many times you hear them say, why wouldn't they just call the police? And it's like, as black people, we're seeing our brothers, our nephews, our sons shot down in the street by police because they're looked at. I was I went to Paula Deen's today.

I said, Tazzy, I want to eat that racist white woman's food because she put so much butter in the food. And I remember when the big scandal came out, my family was planning a trip to Savannah and my family canceled the trip. So, like, I've never eaten Polly. I said, we're going to eat that racist white lady's food. And tell them what happened, Tazzy. Tell them what happened. Now, my black hair does not agree with this rain. It's fluffy. It's frizzy. So I have been walking around with my hood up trying to preserve what's left of this press out. Yeah.

And I went to the back to try and pay. I didn't have my card on me so I had to use Apple Pay. And I went and the lady in the kitchen said, "You look like a thug." Like Tupac. Like Tupac. And I was like, "Hmm, Tupac you say?" Do I look like a thug? But this is why young black boys are getting gunned down in the street at 15 years old because we look like thugs just because we have our hood up. Because the culture is a part of this.

I'm just trying to protect my hair from the rain. But just from outward appearance, I look like a thug. Right. And this is why we can't have these people, or not even that we can't have it, but it's why it's important to at least diversify who's arresting us, who's handling our cases, who's being the judge, and who's being the jury. You say get, you know, you should be on a jury of your peers. Your experience may not be my experience. You might not be my peer. Mm-hmm.

So Tazzy, I want to jump to a fun question. Okay. We have heard so many times listening to white podcasts when somebody is convicted, whether they did it, whether they didn't do it, they're about to be questioned by the police, and the first time the podcaster says...

And they decided they were going to get a lawyer. That's so suspicious. That's so strange. What is your take on being accused, being anywhere in the justice system, and having a lawyer? My dad told me that a lawyer is one of the few things you don't want to go cheap on. I know everybody likes to save a dollar. That's not where you want to save a dollar at because...

This is your first level of protection when you enter a court system. The job of the police is to close cases, however they do it. And some are going to close it the right way and some just aren't. And you want to make sure that somebody is on your side fighting for you to the best of your ability. And that's when you sit there and you see the systemic racism behind it. Because if a lawyer is, when you're facing racism,

Life and death, a lot of these people are, these murderers are, right? So when you're facing this, and the lawyer is your first level defense, but systemically, we're the most marginalized community, and systemically, we experience poverty the most. How am I supposed to protect myself in this system? And then you can get a court opponent attorney,

who's going to push you towards a plea deal. Right. And you have those who fight for you. I'm not saying that they're all bad, but at the end of the day, a lot of them are overworked. A lot of them are underpaid. And a lot of them just don't have the time or resources to give to you. And it breaks down to a bigger issue. When we were researching the Lena Baker case that took place in Georgia, they were talking about that court. And a reporter, he was like, eyes just set in that court.

And watch people take plea after plea after plea because we're told that we're not allowed to fight for our lives. And then if you didn't do it and you decide I'm going to fight for my right because I have the right to as an American citizen, you're punished more. Once you get convicted, you should have took the plea. Exactly. Because it's going to be ten times worse than if you hadn't.

And I think that the stereotype is continuing to be told in court. We were also talking about the Lena Beggar case, and the judge was like, all right, we're here. She's trying to fight for her life. I just want everybody to remember that every minute we're here is $1.25 out of your taxes. This man is still known as one of the greatest lawyers in Georgia. One of the greatest judges.

I'm sorry, one of the greatest judges in Georgia. I can speak. One of the greatest judges in Georgia. But that thought is still passed down. Oh, you want to take your case to trial? You know you're just going to cost the taxpayers money. And I don't think that they're going to take my taxes regardless. You might as well use them for me.

You're not using them for my school system. You're not using it for the potholes in the road. You're not using it to, you're using it so that the police can bother me. You're not using it for anything that helps me. I might as well at least take advantage of what I can now that I'm in a situation that's literally life or death. And I also think that we don't know that we have the options.

I had a teacher when I was taking Georgia history in eighth grade and there is this book. It was for teens and it was called ignorance is no defense. And I, she gave it to us in eighth grade and she was like, listen, because you all need to know that if you do something and you break the law and you go and you tell a judge, well, I didn't know that was a law. That judge is not going to care that you didn't know that it was a law. So it was like a book of different laws that you needed to know as a

child and I was in eighth grade, but I remember all the white kids were like, and some of those things I was like, y'all didn't know that was illegal because my mama taught me early about what to do and what not to do to stay out of trouble. I think it's also, I think another good reason to share our stories is that it sparks social change. I think we saw that in a big picture during the pandemic that

We've always heard about police brutality. You even go back to the 90s, you got your big Rodney King case, but it almost seems sporadic. Like, oh, this huge case came around, and then all of a sudden, we were all at home with nothing to do, and social media is taking off. And on top of that, the Black Lives Matter movement is taking off.

And the Black Lives Matter movement, right or wrong, however people may feel about it, was black people amplifying black voices. Then all of a sudden the names are rolling off of our tongue with police brutality. Tamir Rice, Trayvon Martin, Philando Castile, George Floyd. It just kept going and it was just like, is this really happening? And the thing is, it's been happening.

But now we're telling our stories. Now we're bringing light to it. Now we're demanding change. And it's crazy because from 2020 into 2024,

at 2020 and 2021 for white podcasters and for white true crime enthusiasts it was the thing like we're gonna talk about um race we're gonna talk about diversity equity and inclusion we're gonna continue to do that and you know almost every diversity equity inclusion liaison leader person at these big companies are fired and don't have jobs anymore they don't they because it was a fad

It was for a short period of time. The woo-ha is over, and they're like, okay, it's out of style now. And so now it's our turn to continue to tell our stories. And when I look at the true crime space, I'm looking around the creator's space, and I see two other people other than us that are amplifying these stories. And it also goes back to...

They don't want it. They don't want people to know because it's like, oh, now we're going to have to unearth other things. Oh,

We didn't think that you guys were going to notice that you had an unfair trial. Oh, we didn't think that your family, now that you have passed away and they died in prison, we didn't think that your family was going to actually have the conversations and make us go through court to exonerate you even though you've passed away. And I feel like that's what's so important for us to keep our stories alive, for us to keep our family members alive, for us to keep

are the people that have passed on alive. It's through these stories and it's through telling. And I think that's a good point, even talking about historically. We had two different cases. One was Lena Baker. She was convicted in 1945. And the other was Ruby McCollum. She was convicted in 1952. So Lena Baker's story is that she's like two generations away from slavery. Like her grandmother was a slave. And...

She had a bit of a drinking problem, but she worked as a nurse, and this white man hired her to take care of her dad, his dad, and his dad wanted her. And she didn't want him, but

She struggled to tell this white man no in this time. She can't go to the police because she's a black woman. The police knew. She worked for almost everyone. And the police said, hey, you know that you can't live with this white man. It's illegal. And she's like, I'm not living here. He's making me be here.

But let the newspaper articles tell it, there was a sexual relationship. And it's like, no, it was rape. That's what it was. When the powers of consent are not even, it's rape.

So, she goes on to continually go through this abuse. She even tries to escape. He goes and finds her. He brings her back. It's like this endless cycle of her having to come back to this house to keep working for this man. There's no way out. One day he decides he wants her again. She says, "No, not today." He tries to lock the door. She ends up taking his gun off of him, killing him. And she even tries to go to police and be like, "You know, I tried to defend myself."

She's arrested. She's convicted and sentenced to death. Now, then you have Ruby McCollum, another black woman. She had a white doctor who was raping her. She didn't want it, but she needed pain pills to get by. Because he got her hooked on them. Because he got her hooked on them.

he ends up raping her. She's had enough. She kills him. She's convicted. She's sentenced to death. Now, the difference between these two stories is Ruby McCollum's family was ashamed. Ruby McCollum's family was quiet. They didn't speak about it. And so to this day, Ruby McCollum is still

convicted of this crime, sentenced to death, and that's all there is to her story. The Lena Baker story, her family pushed. Her family kept telling the story. Her family kept bringing it up. And she was commuted from her sentence posthumously, too late, but she was commuted from her sentence. They finally got to be able to take her out of the grave in the

Jail the prison in the prison and give her actual proper burial and bring her home and bring actual justice to her and it still matters Even though she's not here with us neither one of them here with us They hold different weight from this horrible family secret to justice that's finally been served to tables that are finally being turned So tell me Tassie one of the biggest things that we like to talk about on sisters who kill is where is your

justice not being served. And I think we talked about that with Ruby McCollum. We talked about it in different contexts, but what about when

there needs to be, when there's a larger thing at play, when the justice system really isn't going against us. Now I'm specifically talking about the Paula Cooper case. For those of you that are unfamiliar with the Paula Cooper case, Paula Cooper was sentenced to death at 15 years old. Her and some of her friends, they

She had been in and out of foster care. Her mom was an alcoholic. Her mom was trying to basically pin her as a runaway. And she was just kind of hanging out with the girls. And they knew that this woman across the way had money. She was a 77-year-old white woman that was a Bible study teacher. They went in. The woman opened her door, let the girls in, and they attacked her. Paula Cooper, even though she wasn't the mastermind behind the plan, she was the main aggressor on the scene. And I think...

Being the main aggressor on the scene, her growing up with an alcoholic mom and her father was an alcoholic too, they beat on her a lot. Beatings are all she knew. Right. So she goes on the scene and she's being this aggressor. But I think it's also important to look at the context of who knows what was happening in that moment. You're 15 years old and at home you get beat up every day. And

You think that that's normal life. You think that this is okay, or you snap, or you have a mental break, but there's so many other factors there that people, you know...

it's hard to just write it off as you just did this because there's definitely other factors that go into play. Right. And this was before it was put into law that a minor can't be sentenced to death. So she was sentenced to death and there was a huge outroar in the community, both nationally, both domestically and internationally, about why is it that a minor, you say that she's 15 years old, you didn't take into account where she's come from, how she's grown up, and you're saying that she is just...

you can't help her anymore. You're saying that there is no chance that she can be an active member of society again. And so that made her actually, made her sentence life with the possibility of parole. She was somebody that worked continuously with the food. Her victim's grandson and her actually became very close because she was 15 and as she became an adult she learned, she learned life. She learned how to be a better person. And so she ended up being released

from prison in 2013, which sounds amazing, right? Yeah, it sounds amazing. At the age of, what, 36? Right. So you've spent your time for this crime, and here's this hope story that you can be a child, because if somebody would have judged my entire life for the things that I did at 15, my goodness, lock me up and throw away the cube. But she was able to get out. But here's the thing.

Everybody at the prison before she got out the news cameras were there, all the COs were like, we're so proud of her. She's going to be an active member of society. God is first in her life. She knows what she's doing. She's the head of the kitchen. Everything's gonna work out for her.

She got $40 and a bus pass leaving prison and she went back into a city that she hasn't been in in over 15 years. She didn't know how to use the internet, didn't know how to use a cell phone, didn't know how to use the bus. - Didn't have family. - Did not have family, no one.

And so here she is, she's trying. She became a manager at, I believe, Arby's. And she's taking the bus and she's trying to navigate the new world. She never learned how to drive. She never learned how to dress up properly to go to a job interview. Never wore high heels, nothing like that. And after two years of being free, she just, she felt like it was too much. She felt like she couldn't do it anymore.

And so then after two years of her freedom, she ended up taking her own life and she wrote notes to everybody saying that it was too hard being on the outside. And I think that really brings up the question of what can the prison systems do better to make sure that A,

We're remembering that people are people when they are inside the prison walls and making sure that if they have the opportunity to be released, that they are ready to enter society and be active members of society. I agree. I agree. I think it's very crazy.

to call prison a rehabilitation center or a place for reform when nobody is actually worried about the outcome of this reform or rehabilitation. Nobody's making sure that they have a way to survive on the outside. Nobody's making sure that they're prepared for this outside life. And it's unfair because if the rule is you do your time and you get released,

She does her time and then she still struggles. You still walk through this world as a convicted felon. What jobs can you get? You still walk through this world. Not having any family. Not having any help, not having any support, and also not knowing how to get that support. There's no guidance from anyone. And leads people back to crime. Or to adjust a different death sentence is what she got. Yeah.

And I definitely think we've, because we cover cases,

that focus on women, we get an inside peek of the prison system. And I remember we were looking at a prison newspaper article, like they were, like a newsletter that the women put together. And in the news article, they were like, okay, this is the way that you make a tampon because nobody else knows how to. And I just don't understand how I have to beg, borrow, and steal for socks and a tampon and some toothbrush. Like, that's it. And then if you're talking about black women in prison, if you don't have any...

From the research we were doing if you don't have any family if you don't have any money on your books you get a toothbrush you get a small little travel size shampoo and a small little travel size conditioner and let me tell you something a small little travel size of Garnier Fruits is not gonna do nothing for me. It's not gonna do anything for me and they do this in the county jails too so here I am if I don't have any money and I got Garnier Fruits and

Only a little bit. And now I need to, and tomorrow I have to stand in front of a judge. And look presentable. And look presentable and look like I'm not an aggressor, look like I can actually be an active member of society when black women are put at a disadvantage. And I think that those are the things that we continue to want to highlight through our podcast. And I think that makes a good point because with the justice system, like you said, even making yourself presentable is because...

you need a certain level of empathy.

And even when our stories are told, they need a certain level of empathy. Because at the end of the day, we only talk about women who kill. So everybody's done a bad thing. That's clear from here. But is that bad thing her entire life? Is that bad thing what makes her up as a whole person? Are there details to that bad thing that she did? Like with Paula Cooper, she was abused up until that point. Who was looking out for her before she lashed out on this woman?

Who took care of her before the crime happened? We have another story, Bridget Harris. Her father raped her, never got any help for it. Nobody was looking out for her. Nobody's protecting her. She grows up. She has a niece and a nephew, and her father says, I'm taking them to Africa. And now she's back at this place where she was as a child, where she never got any help for. And she doesn't want to kill her dad. She researches, what's going to happen if I cut off his penis? You

You don't die. You don't die. Just so you know. Just so you know. It's going to be a lot of bloodlust, but he wasn't going to die. But what she did know was that he also wasn't going to rape her niece and nephew. Now, where she went wrong was she tried to smother his screams by stuffing a towel in his mouth, and he ended up suffocating to death. So, again, we can't just look at this story as, oh, she killed her father. There's details to this case.

that need to be told, there's empathy and sympathy that need to be had toward these victims to be able to decide what is actually fair for them. Yeah, and when we are, and it's crazy, I remember this, Antoinette Brown, when we were researching that case,

and reading her book, and she was like, those pigtails that they made me wear, y'all know the pictures of her in court with the pigtails? She was like, I was grown, big grown, wearing those pigtails. But the crime happened when she was a minor, right? And she needed to tell the jury, hey, I'm young and still...

I'm young. I didn't mean to do this. I did it as a minor. It was in self-defense. And she was like, my big grown self and my judge saying, you need to look less scary. You need to look less like a criminal. I remember Joan Little, they crocheted this flower cap for her head because they were like, you need to look as young as possible. Why can't I just...

be seen as a human, as the person that's my age. It makes me think of the Virginia Christian case. And she was also 15 years old when her crime happened. And this was way back in the day and in the state of Virginia. And the jury said, I mean, the prosecutor said, I don't even know why we're here. They keep saying that she's 15 years old. There ain't no way that she's 15 years old. Her boobs are big, her hips are wide. Ain't no way that she's 15 years old. And she's like,

I'm just living in my skin. And they're like, she has to be 21. And that's that rooted racism that is happening in the justice system. That implicit bias. That implicit bias. Because here I am. I have no 15-year-olds that, thick up.

Does that mean that when she goes to court that they have to be like, oh no, ain't no way, she must be 21? Guess what, a 15 year old girl, black girl does not develop the same way as a 15 year old white girl. A 15 year old black girl can't wear the Sophie shorts rolled up like a 15 year old white girl can. And they don't see that in the courtroom. And you know, people are always like, ugh, jury summons. I cannot wait for mine to come. I cannot, let me give some real justice now.

You know? Call me up. I don't do a true crime podcast. No, I've never won. No, I don't know anything about this case. Other ways we take the case apart, definitely like when we were talking about looking into the past and stopping things before they could actually happen. We've also had cases like Wanda Jean. No, she wasn't abused and no, nobody raped her. But as a child at the age of 12, she was hit by a bus.

And she suffered brain damage. And everybody says, oh, from there she was never the same. And everybody thought she was sweet. She just had a little tick about her. Just sometimes she would lose it. It had the inability to fully develop. And she was lacking some decision-making skills. She was lacking some calm down, you're doing too much skills. And ended up committing a murder. She wasn't happy about it. She wasn't okay with it. She did her time. But it's, again...

where are we stepping in before this even happens? Because at the end of the day, if we are a community, if we're together, we're a country, if we're not looking out for this one and letting this one fall through the cracks, we can't then look at the victim and say, oh, shame on you, shame on you. Where were you when I needed you? Yeah. When Sisters Who Kill began, an online store was the furthest thing from our minds. I mean...

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rocketmoney.com slash sisters. I think these dialogues are really important. It surprises me with our fan base because a lot of people say, oh, I listen to your show with my kids. And I'm always like, why do you do that? It is, but I think that you have to teach a young black kid about the justice system way before you have to teach a young white kid about the justice system. You have to teach...

an elementary school kid that if he's cold, he still can't put his hoodie up because people are gonna look at him differently. - You gotta teach your teen drivers when the police pulls you over, hands on the steering wheel, no sudden movements. - And I think a lot of times,

I think a lot of times it's the scary conversations to have. And I think that's why those, and sometimes it's triggering for the adult in their life to tell these stories. So sometimes we just don't talk about it. You know, there's things at the house we just don't talk about. So-and-so's locked up, we're just not going to talk about it. So-and-so got beat by the police, we're just not going to talk about it. Everybody's okay. Like it's, I think that it's hard for us to have those conversations in the home sometimes because we're not used to it.

If something goes bad, we're supposed to not talk about it. I think that's why having podcasts, having people that look like us on TV shows telling these stories and telling you what to do so that...

If something happens, you know exactly how to react. I want to make sure that, I tell kids on our podcast, because I know they listen, I'm like, if ever a police officer comes to your school with a teacher and says they need to talk to you, do not talk to them, call your mom. You know, and I think that a lot of people are not telling the kids what to do. And especially in the black community, because they're scared, hell, we're scared. We're all scared together. Right?

I think that's a good point. We've had several cases where teens or young adults are coming in and talking to the police, not knowing that they have other rights, not knowing that they can ask for a lawyer, not knowing that they can wait for their mother. And that changed the entire trajectory of their case. And now they want to go back and ask for appeals. Do you know the likelihood of getting an appeal is?

you really got one time to fight and that's in court the first time and you want to make sure you do it right. You know how much it costs to try to do your appeals to get a lawyer? And that's a big difference between white people that are convicted of crimes and black people that are convicted of crimes. If we don't have money or a community

They don't care. They'll just waste your life away. They'll let you fall through the cracks. They'll let you go through the drain. They'll make sure that you're in prison for the rest of your days. But if you're white and you have money, oh, we have time for you. And that's a disparity that is not being talked about enough in the true crime space. There are black girls that are missing. Nobody is talking about them. They're desensitized to the fact that people are actually missing because, you know, they come from low-income families. It's not like their parents donated a million dollars to this place, so now we don't really care about them. No, it's...

They're missing. There are black girls that are being murdered. There are serial killers that are looking out just for black women to kill because they know. They know that they're easy target and that nobody cares.

And that's why it's so important to keep these stories alive because somebody cares. We care. We know y'all care. But we have to make sure that everybody cares. And it's crazy how disproportionate it is, how disproportionate it is, the population of the prison, majority black men, right behind them black women. Like, it's crazy. And when we talk about needing money for appeals and needing money for even the stuff after the cases have closed,

Black men are seven times more likely to be wrongfully convicted. Seven times to be wrongfully convicted. Not wrongfully arrested. We're here. Like, we're in jail. Unless somebody else pleads my case, I'm stuck here. And it's wrong getting years of their life robbed from them. Getting their entire life robbed from them. Several of them on the death penalty. Several of them convicted to life. Several of them

convicted 10 to 15 years and just because nobody's talking about it nobody's putting money into it and saying well you had your chance but it's not even it's not fair and nobody's going to talk about it we got to talk about it yeah that's really good Tassie tell me this I'm another fun question so somebody comes up to you a white woman comes up to you she's red white fragility and she is pumped and

She is pumped for social justice and she says, please, please, please tell me what do you need from me? What should I do? How can I be more? How can I be a good ally? What would you say? I would say, thank you, white woman, for your allyship. But sometimes it's, my mom does tell me you always need at least one good white person on your team because white people open doors. They've got the access as a key card. It just is what it is.

Emails are fierce. But there is just a certain point that allyship cannot cross and that's experience. You can love us down, you can see our plight, you can want to fight the good fight, but again you'll never see the cases that we see because you have never had our experience.

So at the end of the day, it is us who have to do the work because even at here, I feel like at least everybody's had at least one aha moment. Like, hmm, I didn't think about it like that. And it's not your fault. It wasn't your experience. It was ours. But that's why we have to tell it. I love that. So white people, if you have a door, please open it. Thank you. Because these stories do need to be told if you cash up a black person's back.

But I do think that there's something really important with the FUBU. For us, by us. It's us. It's ours. It's our stories, and we have to tell it. It's not we have the experience, we have the context. It's

We have to do it. So what other podcasts are you listening to that people should be listening to when they want to hear these stories told in an authentic way? The first one is Sisters Who Kill. Every Friday. Save it. Bookmark it. Subscribe. Like, comment, subscribe. We do have a private discussion group, but we got to know you first for y'all that are here. You better know it. Yeah.

The list is small, but can you rattle off a few off the top of your head where people can continue to hear these stories being told in a way that is uplifting to our community? Affirmative murder and killing color, black true crime, black girl gone. Because it's not that we don't exist. We're here. We're here.

It's giving us the platforms to have this opportunity. And I know, you know, just thankfully Taz and I blew up on TikTok, you know, and we've got a lot of downloads and now we're here. But I'm not coming up on this stage unless next year somebody else can come up on the stage and talk about the same subject that I can't even better. I want to make sure that, you know, when I walk around that the only booths with black people, there's three of them, they're spaced out and nobody, everybody's like, oh, what at?

We want to make sure that we have a real space here in the true crime world because our stories are so important. In the grand scheme of things, people care. I mean, in the small scheme of things, people care. You guys care. But in the grand scheme of things, nobody cares. The politicians don't care. They care about their dollar. They don't care about the fact that the first time that you stole anything out of the store is because you were hungry.

They don't care about the first time that you rap, "Stomach hurts so I'm looking for a purse to snatch." That ain't because I'm a thug. That's because I'm hungry. And I think that us telling these stories and having people around that are continuing to make these stories will hopefully inspire other people to tell the stories that need to be told, to find the people that need to be found, and to make sure that justice is actually just. We got 10 minutes for any questions.

All right, we have about 10 minutes left, and we wanted to open the floor up for questions if anybody had any. There's a mic in the middle. Okay, come on up. I can't see that far, so you're going to come on down. You are the next contestant on The Price is Right. Okay, can you hear me?

Okay, so this is my third CrimeCon. So obviously I have noticed the lack of black people at CrimeCon even though I know black people love true crime. And there have been so many situations where I'm in like a room or something and afterwards I say to my friend or like my coworker, I'm like, "Hey, did you notice I was the only minority in that room?" And they're like, "99% of the time, hmm, I didn't think about it." And I'm like, "Well, I don't get the privilege to not think about it."

And I think that's relevant because I think we unintentionally kind of have majority blindness when we're in the majority. We're not noticing the minority. Even to put it in the other perspective, my mom's white. She stands out at the cookout. Everybody, who's that white lady, you know? And so what can we do?

to have more conversations where we're like, hey, you guys might not have noticed. I sure noticed. Where are the black people? Where are the Hispanic people? Where are the Asian people? They are just as involved in this. They have just as many stories as us. Where are they? I think that's so funny that you said that because we went to the Creator cocktail last night and Mariah walks in the room and she says, one, two. I said, are you counting the black people in the room? Because I've got the same count.

You know, I'm an asshole. And I don't mind making people uncomfortable. Like, I don't mind being like, wow, this is really great. I can't believe I'm the only black person that knows about this. Because I know people that would love this. Oh, and I'm also a theater girly, which is also a privileged sport. And so I always think of, like, when I was...

I love y'all. But when I was even looking at the ticket prices here and like looking at ticket prices on Broadway, I'm like, no wonder black people aren't here. Where is the access for us to be in the spaces when we are the ones that have our TV on ID channel and the reason that all the motherfuckers out there are famous. They're famous because they're on the TV channels in our homes. We're paying your bills, but we still can't afford to come and meet you. I think that that's outrageous. And so I start making people uncomfortable. And everybody, even our booth today,

Somebody was asking us what our pitch was and I was like, I make sure that every if you stopped inside out I was like, let me tell you about black women who kill Let me tell you about all the things that are happening wrong and I want to make people uncomfortable because even if they start the conversation with if Sally and Joe have the conversation at home and it still becomes a productive conversation I still did something right because Sally and Joe at least we're gonna think a little bit different probably not gonna change Sally and Joe 75 years of racism, but at least they're saying you know what I

Maybe I need to stop looking at her like that. You know what I'm saying? Maybe I need to stop saying this. Maybe that's not right anymore. So continue to make white people feel fucking weird. That's what I'd say. Thanks.

Hey! I know we are sisters who kill, but I would be interested in thinking about the racial disparities and the interwoven systemic racism and white supremacy in the justice system. I wonder what you all's thoughts were on the Khalif Browder case. 16-year-old kid who was walking home in New York City with his buddy and got off the subway. It was nighttime. Police pick him up.

arrest them, say, "Hey, you stole a backpack from this store. The store owner ID'd you." Kalief Browder was like, "Ah, nope, I didn't." They held this 16-year-old boy in Rikers Island in solitary confinement for three years and never charged him. He was released, and Roc Nation, Jay-Z's lawyer company, picked up the case, and he was released, struggled,

to get out. His family was fighting, doesn't have any money. The reason he stayed so long is because they couldn't post bail. They charged him as an adult for a stolen backpack. Then the store owner said, actually, no one really did it, so my bad, oops. And Kalief Browder ended up hanging himself and killing himself due to the, he ended up spending another stint, because he got picked up again on something that he didn't do, ended up spending four years in Rikers Island, never charged, killed himself. I think it's

Yet another case, because I think the key thing I hear you say is when Jay-Z's lawyer picked him up. So when black people came and stepped in and said, hey, this ain't right, that's when we finally get change. And I think it just further hits the nail on the head of why we have to do this work. Not to mention the cruel and unusual punishment of solitary confinement. That solitary confinement, like, I don't even know what I still think, but okay. Hey, y'all.

I just wanted to say thank y'all for giving us a safe space in the crime world as black women. Also, I wanted to do, I didn't do it, but if I did. Okay. Okay. Y'all got a segment for our show. If y'all don't know, that's a segment.

So the Nicola case, right? So I would have just picked up the tray that I was making the sandwiches with and just start swinging. Like, forget the knife. I'm going to just take the tray with the sandwiches that I got to make for my own wedding. For my own wedding, my own DIY wedding. Smacking your sister too because you let it happen.

To help me, right, you went to the strip club with your brother. Niggas talking about, oh, well, you couldn't care. Now, the night before our DIY wedding, you better be in this fucking house. Let me tell you. Watching all these kids. My thing is, so,

at the niece that she took in because she had the niece as well right so what is this that I got your kid you need to come help me you need to be in this house doing some work too or swinging too

Right. What we knew was that it was a family emergency and that she needed to take the niece in, which taking a child in full time two months before your wedding is already very stressful. And I agree. Like, where is her community? Also, the signs of the potential of abuse up and moving your family across the country and not really...

letting them have connections with anybody else, the fact that nobody showed up to help her with her DIY wedding. Tazi said, where was her bridal party? So then we get to say, you know, she talks about the abuse and her appeals, but now we get to the question, like, hmm, were the signs of abuse there the whole time? But my counsel told me that I shouldn't do that because I never filed a police report. And I think that those are the questions that we get to start asking because, you

They say don't call the police on anybody. They say to keep everything in the house. So if somebody, I've seen it with elders in my family and people's families that I know where you know that there's abuse going on in the house and no one says anything. You know they upset with each other.

I was gonna say, I think that's a good point because it's not just systemic racism that you have to break, but it's also generational curses. Correct. That you have to break. And so I think some of that comes into play in a little bit of every case that we cover is, okay, in the black household it goes like this. And like, how can we, black households, you don't speak to therapists. No.

Black households, you don't tell nobody outside the house. So even your school counselors, what happens in this house stays in the house. And these are, again, other nuances. All the black people are like, my mama told me the same thing. If these aren't happening in white households, you don't know. So when you're asking the questions, why didn't you just do that? Because we were trained not to. Because I was told not to. And also because you were...

I think you're going to take my mom away forever. So now I know that I shouldn't say anything, even though I'm hurting at home and the kids don't know what to do with that. People don't. And even when it comes to adults that are being abused, you say that everything's fine at the household. So,

If he's been beating up on me for years and years and I've never said anything, the time that I actually had to defend myself, you're telling me that I didn't have to defend myself because he's never done it? Are you really telling me that right now when I have family members that say that he's done it, when there's evidence? But there's not a police report, so now I'm invalid. And I think that that is really, it's a missing piece in the justice system. And I think the missing piece is us knowing what our options are and what we can do to make the system work for us instead of the system working us.

All right, y'all. That is the end of our time here at CrimeCon. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

I'm so happy that y'all are here. Make sure if you are interested in listening to Sisters Who Kill podcast, you can follow us everywhere. Sisters Who Kill podcast. You can follow us on Sisters Who Kill podcast on Twitter. Sisters Who Kill pod on Instagram. Sisters Who Kill podcast on TikTok. Sisters Who Kill podcast on all of your podcasting sites. Make sure that you tell a friend to tell a friend that they might like it over here.

Thank you so much for having us. And I think we're going to meet people at some place. So I'm looking forward to meeting y'all. Thank you. Now, I only got one complaint after this talk, and it's that I did not end it correctly. So let me do it now. Talk to us, we talk back.