Jessica Funk-Haslam - 614
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I'm doing good, Justin, but the people want to know, how are you? I'm doing all right. Aaron and I will be going on a cruise January 26th through the 30th, 2026, Wondery's Exhibit C. It's going to be sailing from Miami, Florida to Nassau in the Bahamas.

There's going to be a ton of cool activities like self-defense classes, true crime trivia night, workshops led by true crime experts. There'll be a whole lineup of other great podcasters and other true crime gurus. Cabins are on sale now, so you need to go grab one up before they're all gone. Go out to ExhibitCCruise.com for all the details. That's ExhibitCCruise.com.

And for anyone that's in Albuquerque, New Mexico, I will be there March 15th at the Beyond Crime Convention. If you go out to beyondcrimeconvention.com also.

I'm going to be at AdvocacyCon. That's going to be in Indianapolis, Indiana, March 28th through the 30th. So check out AdvocacyCon.com and use code GENY10. So tonight's case, Aaron, is a little different. I know that sometimes, especially in murder cases, capital murder cases...

I'll say, hey, we have circumstantial evidence, we have a murder weapon, we have this, we have that, but we don't have any DNA evidence. Or you didn't prove that this guy was here or there, but where's the DNA? I want something tying this person to the crime scene to make sure that I know he was there and they committed this crime. But what if all we have is DNA evidence and

And nothing else. No witness, no murder weapon, no motive, nothing. Just DNA. And I guess that's kind of what this case tonight's about. So with that, what are we talking about? Tonight we're talking about the discovery of the body of a 13-year-old named Jessica Funk Hoslam, unmarried.

On March 6, 2012 in Sacramento, California, she was found in a locked baseball bugout in Rosemont Park. Jessica Funk Hoslam was born May 31, 1998. When she was young, her mother and father, Tara and Alan, split up. She grew up in the Sacramento area and attended Albert Einstein Middle School in Sacramento. There's not much about her life. I mean, she was a teenager, but...

It said that she loved the color pink, zebra stripes. And in 2012, she lived in Rosemont, California, a suburb of Sacramento. And she had a lot of friends. She said that she was social, but she did have some problems at home. So around 6 p.m. on March 5th, 2012, Little League practice ended at Rosemont Community Park, and the coach sealed off the dugout entrances with chains and locks.

Now, around the same time, Jessica got into an argument with her mom. And according to her mother, Tara, Jessica wanted to meet up with someone, but didn't say who that was. Despite her mom demanding that she stay home, Jessica grabbed a pack of Camel cigarettes and ran from the apartment. Now, her mom gave chase, but couldn't catch her.

Jessica then boarded a light rail train and then a bus to take her near her school. And at 6.29 p.m., a surveillance camera near Rosemont Park, which is about a mile from her school, recorded Jessica as she smoked a cigarette and walked near the west side of the park. Now, over the weekend, Jessica stayed with her father, and she had a history of stealing his Camel cigarettes. Jessica then boarded a light rail train and then a bus to take her near her school.

Jessica was last seen smoking on the swings around 8 p.m. or 9 p.m., and between 8.30 and 9, a resident near the park heard a scream come from the park area near the baseball diamond.

The witness claimed the scream was alarming and different from the typical screams of children happily playing at that park. And it's pretty late at night, so typically little kids aren't going to be out at around 9 at night. Nobody here is from Jessica, and at around 6.30 a.m. on Tuesday, March 6, 2012...

A woman discovered a person she thought was sleeping in the dugout at the baseball diamond. As the woman collected bottles and cans, she realized the body was blue and non-responsive, so she called authorities.

Detective Kenneth Clark and Sergeant Paul Belli from the Sacramento County Sheriff's Department arrived on the scene and found Jessica lying on the cement floor of the dugout. The dugout was still locked. Detective Clark noted the opening was at least 16 inches and determined a person of average or smaller size could fit through the narrow passage.

Clark and Belly entered the dugout at separate times and surveyed the scene closer. Around Jessica's body lay camel cigarette butts, cigarette packaging, and a condom wrapper. Jessica had lost a lot of blood. She wore a zebra-striped jacket, and the buckle on her pants appeared slightly askew, which that keys the detectives off into questioning if this was sexually motivated.

Jessica was beaten and there was a visible stab wound to the right side of her neck. But which injury was fatal was difficult to determine because she has bruising and wounds all over her. So they're trying to figure out what happened here. So, of course, the media talks to her friends and family and her friends describe Jessica as funny and able to make someone smile, even if they're having a tough day.

Her dad spoke tearfully to a local news station. He said Jessica had normal teenage issues, but that she was wonderful. The community rallied behind the family and helped raise over $3,000 for Jessica's funeral and held a vigil for her. They decorated the area with her favorite things, pink ribbons and zebra-striped decorations.

And I just want to point out, we haven't brought this up, but Jessica's father was Alan Porter. He had a different last name. So if you read up on this case, you know, that's just something you'll notice.

So obviously when a 13-year-old girl is murdered, they're going to take this very seriously. The investigators canvassed 200 homes in the neighborhood, knocking and talking to as many people as they can. One witness reported he heard the voices of a young female and male coming from the park at around 2.30 a.m. on March 6th. He could hear talking but couldn't see anyone.

On March 15, 2012, a little more than a week after Jessica's murder, detectives released video surveillance from a home near the park. Between 8 p.m. and 9 p.m., a person wearing dark clothing was recorded running away from the baseball field on March 5, 2012. As cars approached, the person seemed to hide and then run once the car was out of view. The person captured eventually ran out of the video range.

The video footage was not clear enough to see the person's face. I saw a video of this. It is grainy. It is dark. You can't tell much. It looks just like somebody in dark clothing and a hoodie. It's very hard to tell.

So the detectives are asking the public, does anyone recognize this person? Detectives stated they did not think the person running was involved, but they did want any information that person might have. It's unclear if detectives even identified this person who was running.

Two weeks later, on March 29th of 2012, Sacramento County announced a $10,000 reward for any tip that led to an arrest and conviction in Jessica's case.

So the only thing we have here is we have one lady saying she heard a scream between 830 and nine. We have somebody else saying that they heard talking later in the, in the morning, like two 30 AM. And then we have video of somebody leaving the park area and maybe hiding from a passing car.

Yeah, it's weird because there's a resident who was near the park who heard a scream coming from the park area between 8.30 and 9 p.m., which if you have video of someone running from that area at that time, that's kind of suspicious to me. But maybe the police didn't want to tip this person off that they were suspicious of them. So they say they don't think they're involved. The autopsy revealed that Jessica was stabbed twice, suffocated, and suffered a blunt force head injury.

One stab wound was located on the back and right side of the neck. It did not cause any fatal damage. However, the other stab wound on the front right side of Jessica's neck pierced her carotid artery almost all the way through.

Dr. Gregory Ryber, who performed the autopsy, reported a single-edged knife likely caused the wounds. Jessica also had a skull fracture on the back left side of the head that was caused by a very forceful impact. Dr. Ryber reported the fracture was the kind of fracture you can sometimes see when an adult falls backward and doesn't do anything to stop their fall. And the floor of the dugout was cemented. So Ryber believed this could be the type of surface to cause such a fracture from a fall or drop.

Either somebody knocked her down or even possibly slammed her head against the concrete. Sounds very likely.

In addition to the stab and head wounds, Jessica also suffered asphyxiation, petechial hemorrhaging, which is small red pinpoint dots appearing on Jessica's neck, face, eyelids, and scalp. Reiber found no external neck compression, such as bruising, ligature marks, or any compression marks. As a result, he concluded Jessica asphyxiated by a heavy weight being on her chest, such as somebody touching

sitting or kneeling on her chest. The autopsy revealed bruising around Jessica's shoulder blades and on the right lower part of her face near her jaw. Reiber suggested the bruising on her face was caused by someone holding her head back to inflict the fatal neck wound. He labeled the cause of death as a combination of blunt force head trauma, asphyxia by chest compression, and a stab wound to the neck.

So we have sounds like somebody's on top of her, has hit her, knocked her to the ground or slammed her head against the concrete and has stabbed her. So we have multiple things here, but there wasn't any evidence of a sexual assault.

And this Dr. Riber basically says either the severing of the carotid artery or that asphyxiation would have been fatal. So it's kind of hard to say which ended her life. But since both of those things were happening, this is obviously a homicide. So months go by, no leads. The community organized a second vigil in Jessica's honor.

on the first anniversary of her death. And investigators, they were pretty stumped. So Detective Paul Belli talked with KCRA 3 News, and he stated that the Sheriff's Department requested assistance from the FBI. The Behavioral Analysis Unit reviewed Jessica's case and reported the murderer may be withdrawn using alcohol or drugs, and their level of violence may have increased. So investigators thought the murderer was a single male between 16 and 25 years old,

and they believed that Jessica was comfortable around her killer, even if they were unknown before that evening. Despite the media interview, the investigators remained at a standstill in this case.

Approximately a year and a half after Jessica was discovered in the dugout, authorities got a break. Investigators received the results from the DNA samples collected from the crime scene, and CODIS, the Combined DNA Index System, indicated a match with a 23-year-old named Ryan Douglas Roberts.

year and a half later. That's how long it takes them to get results back and a lead. So you can just imagine witness testimonies, questioning people a year and a half later. A lot of this stuff is going to be forgotten. A lot of evidence is going to be gone, but they find somebody who matches in CODIS. Having an elevated style doesn't mean you have to break your bank.

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So detectives Clark and Tony Turnbull approach Ryan outside of a restaurant on August 7th of 2013. And they ask him, do you remember the murder of a teen girl a year before? And he said he does remember. He stated his friend went to the park the night before with his children and told Ryan the next morning that a girl had been found dead. The detectives then presented Ryan with a picture of Jessica and asked, do you recognize her?

He said, I don't recognize her and I was not at the park the night she was murdered. Ryan further denied any reason for his DNA or fingerprints to be found at the crime scene. And he finally told the detectives, you have my phone number if you need me. And like, uh, I want to get cleared out of this. I'd offer DNA and fingerprints, but honestly, I'm already in the system. So you guys can run me. Why is he in the system?

Well, he had been arrested before. It was earlier that year, May 30th, 2013. He was arrested for an alleged domestic violence call. He was processed and booked in jail. He was released June 4th. Ultimately, no charges were filed due to a lack of evidence, but...

Under California law, any person arrested and booked for a felony crime has their DNA collected as part of the booking process, along with their photographs and fingerprints. So if they're not booked, then DNA is not collected. That's why he's saying, you already have all this stuff. You can run me if you want. And he seems very nonchalant about it, like not worried about it, saying, hey, if you have DNA, if you have fingerprints,

You already have mine. Go ahead and clear me. He doesn't seem worried. So they have all of this and they're saying the state, their DNA lab is saying Ryan's DNA is a hit for this cigarette butt. And they're alerting the detectives to this match.

Yeah, and this is strange how it goes down, but these detectives, they let Ryan leave. And then a short while later, different officers arrested Ryan and brought him to the station. And detectives Clark and Turnbull interviewed him again. Clark informed Ryan he was arrested for the murder of Jessica Funk Hoslam and read him his Miranda rights. The questioning continued, and Ryan denied being at the park that night.

So then they tell him, you know, your DNA was at the scene. And Ryan asked them, well, where? And the detectives told him his DNA was found on cigarette butts. And Ryan played off stating, that's what has me here?

Again, he's just being very matter-of-fact. What are you talking about? But how do you play this? Is this somebody who is a sociopath, or is this somebody who is truly surprised by the finding of his DNA at a murder scene?

Yeah, they end up trying something interesting, don't they? So Detective Clark accused Ryan of the murder, but he's trying to work with him. He states, hey, maybe something happened. Jessica attacked you. Maybe you killed her in self-defense. Maybe it was an accident. And Ryan replied, that's reading a lot into cigarette butts. And when questioned why he killed Jessica, Ryan responded, damn, I...

I like both of you guys. I wish we weren't on opposite sides. So this is again, just Ryan going, why are we talking here? You guys seem cool. This seems like a very odd interview to be having. So they do a break. They come back. They continue to question Ryan. And he says stuff like, well, I guess this is my lesson to quit smoking cigarettes. And once this is over with, I'm never smoking cigarettes again.

And again, cigarettes got me caught for a murder or wow, smoking has got me in a hot seat today. But he's coming up with a lot of interesting statements. And I think they're probably red flags to the detectives, at least in their minds. He told detectives he knew they were allowed to lie to him. And he questioned why it took so long for his DNA to be matched.

He went on to tell detectives that he smoked cigarettes smoked by someone else and then thrown away. I haven't heard of this, Justin. Are you familiar with this?

I've never heard a term called refis, but I know a lot of smokers, if they don't have any cigarettes and there is a cigarette butt on the ground that's half smoked or a little bit left, they'll pick it up and light it. And if you're in kind of the outskirts of Sacramento where, you know, it's not crime ridden, but not the best part of the neighborhood, people will smoke each other's cigarettes just because they don't have

$10 or whatever the tax is to buy a pack for themselves, you know? Yeah. So they go ahead and book him into the Sacramento County Jail. And there was a recorded conversation between Ryan and a male where Ryan is claiming not to be worried at all about these charges. He said authorities were grasping for straws. And he again joked it was his sign to quit smoking.

And I can look at this both ways, Aaron. I honestly think either he absolutely did this and is a sociopath and just is like, they got nothing on me. Or he's ultimately surprised and thinking, how on earth am I here? I know they'll clear this up, so I'll get out of here soon. And I'm not going to take it that seriously.

Well, Ryan Roberts goes on trial in August of 2015 and his friend, Jamel Moore, and his children, MK and MA, they're only identified by initials because they're minors. You know, they testify before the court. And at the time of the crime in 2012, MK was 11. He was a male and MA was nine and female. Jamel testified that he and his children went to the park the night Jessica was murdered. His kids played tag. They threw a football with other kids.

while Jamel and Ryan smoked Marlboro Smooth menthol cigarettes that Ryan brought with him. Ryan had met Jamel at the park, and according to MA, which is the girl, he arrived on a skateboard or motorcycle. Jamel clarified Ryan walked to the park. Again, might be a little bit of difficulty getting testimony from a nine-year-old who probably didn't even see him arrive, but had imagined that's the way he showed up. And years later. Yeah.

Now, Jamel stated that Jessica was there. She sat alone and smoked at a park table before she moved to the swings. MK and MA confirmed Jamel's testimony and stated that they also saw Jessica on the swings. MA testified she saw Ryan talk to Jessica on the swings for about 10 minutes. Jamel also spoke to Jessica and asked her why she was at the park so late.

According to Jamel, Jessica responded she didn't want to go home yet. Jamel testified they left the park when it was getting dark. Emma stated the time was around 7-8pm before they left.

Jamel asked Jessica if she'd be okay and recommended that she go home. Jessica told Jamel she had an argument with her mom and repeated she didn't want to go home yet. She confirmed she would be fine and she stayed at the park.

All three of the Moors testified Ryan left the park at the same time as them, but not in the same direction. When the group left, Jessica remained on the swings. MK and MA testified Ryan had knives in his possession before MK stated Ryan showed a folding knife to Jamel. However, Jamel contradicted the statement stating Ryan didn't have the knife with him

but did own a folding knife he sometimes kept on his person.

Jamel and another friend, Salvador, both testified they never saw Ryan smoke a cigarette butt off the ground. MK testified he overheard Jamel call Ryan the following day and state, that girl from last night, she's on the news. Ryan arrived at Jamel's home later in the day and they watched a local news report about Jessica's murder. According to Jamel, Ryan seemed shocked

Salvador called Jamel after he found out and both Jamel and Ryan went to his apartment. Jamel and Ryan told Salvador of their encounter with Jessica the night of the murder and leaving the park. Again, Ryan did not indicate he returned to the park and both Salvador and JM testified to this.

A criminalist with the Sacramento County District Attorney's Laboratory of Forensic Services testified on the DNA analysis of the cigarette butts. She reported two of the cigarette butts matched Ryan's DNA profile, but not Jessica's. One cigarette only matched Jessica's DNA profile. One, though, contained DNA from Jessica and Ryan. Jessica was the major contributor, and Ryan was the minor contributor. There was a one in two billion chance the DNA would match another Caucasian person, and

as the minor contributor. Another cigarette butt contained both their DNA, again with Jessica as the major contributor and Ryan as the minor contributor. On that butt, the chances of the minor profile matching someone else was 1 to 1 billion.

Four other cigarette butts also contained a mixture of DNA, with Jessica and the defendant both being possible donors. The probability of the DNA profile matching another Caucasian individual decreased with all four of the final cigarette butts tested. So, you know, it's like 1 in 200 million, 1 in 32 million, you get the idea. Jessica's belt buckle was tested for DNA.

and Ryan was matched as a minor contributor with the chances of another random Caucasian at 1 in 550. Despite the initial belief that sexual assault was the motive, there was no trace of sperm on the areas of Jessica's body that were swabbed. Another forensic expert testified the latent fingerprints recovered from the condom wrapper were not from Ryan.

So this is two cigarettes at least appear to have been shared between Ryan and Jessica. And then three or four more possibly have contributing factors from multiple people, including Ryan and Jessica. But I would personally, I'm looking at two, very much two cigarettes, not one, not eight, just two cigarettes. I'm like, yeah, it looks like they shared some. So

So now all of a sudden Ryan saying, I didn't smoke any of her cigarettes. Ryan saying, I didn't really interact with her much. That is very much called into question here. Yeah, because he supposedly left when his friend and his family left.

So you could understand why detectives would think, oh no, he acted like he was leaving and then went back because he's apparently smoking cigarettes with Jessica. So the defense, they're going to say, hey, the DNA matches are not definitive and the condom wrapper excludes Ryan. If there's a latent fingerprint and it doesn't match his, then that's not a match. That's excluding him. Yeah.

They argued Ryan's DNA was found on cigarette butts because he had smoked them off the ground. And they were saying that essentially she was the major contributor. He was a minor contributor to the DNA. So she smoked these cigarettes, threw them on the ground. He picked one up, relit it, took a few drags and then threw it on the ground. They say that they were found next to her body due to the wind or just got blown over there.

They further argued that no murder weapon was recovered. The knife collected from Ryan's car from a search warrant wasn't tested against Jessica's wounds, and the prosecutor did not present evidence of DNA to match Jessica from that knife. So they don't have a murder weapon, essentially, is what they're proving here. So if you have a couple cigarettes that have his DNA found next to her body, then

And they're claiming he picked those up off the ground and smoked them. That's an explanation. The defense goes further and offers alternate suspects. There's a man named Christopher Reed, an adult male who stayed at Vince's motel. And Jessica's friend, a minor, we'll call her SL. The defense team said Ryan had no motive to kill Jessica, unlike her friend and Christopher Reed.

The defense claimed authorities questioned SL and Christopher. Christopher was the prime suspect in this case until the DNA match a year later. So Jessica's friends with SL, who is associated with this man named Christopher Reed. This is somebody else who could have murdered Jessica, somebody who lived at a hotel and probably had a criminal record.

So the defense calls SL to testify. She was 14 when her friend was killed, attended Albert Einstein Middle School with her. It was just a close friend. According to SL, Jessica didn't have a lot of friends, and she looked up to SL. SL and her mother, Christina, resided at Vince's motel about a mile and a half from Rosemont Park. Now, the motel, it's usually occupied by sex workers and substance users.

According to reports, and according to SL, Jessica experienced trouble at home and ran away to stay with SL and her mother a number of times. Christina wasn't consistently present, and other residents would take care of SL and, by proxy, her friend Jessica.

One of the caregivers, Connie Kay, testified at trial. Connie confirmed Jessica was with SL frequently at Vince's motel, and SL was jealous of Jessica. Connie stated she was jealous to the point she almost couldn't hold back her feelings. She often didn't really. SL testified she didn't remember fighting with Jessica. However, in the days before Jessica's murder,

SL admitted she left multiple voicemails where she was upset a little with Jessica. So friends fighting, arguing. I don't know if they're saying SL is jealous of Jessica because she has a better life. If she has interest in a boy, it doesn't really say what the jealousy is about, but I guess they don't get along very well at times.

Yeah, and S.L. doesn't have a consistent story when she's asked about this jealousy. And during her testimony, she said that Jessica was supposed to be initiated into the Juggalos gang. And S.L. did not want that. The Juggalos are a gang comprised of members who follow a band called ICP, Insane Clown Posse. And in an FBI report, the gang was described as a small niche of the rap scene known as Horror Corps.

The genre is mainly associated with Detroit artist Insane Clown Posse, but has spawned a host of imitators who excite crowds with musical horror stories in which murder, rape, and suicide are recurrent themes. The Juggalos have been charged with discharge of a firearm. Juggalos' crimes also include drug sales, drug possession, child endangerment as well, and many other crimes typically seen by gangs and gang members. You're familiar a little bit with this band, right, Justin?

Yeah, I know a lot of people that listen to them. They're just a band, and if some of their listeners and fans form their own little gangs, it doesn't mean that everyone that listens to ICP is a bad person. I'm not a fan of their music myself. It doesn't mean that they're not...

talented in their own right, but a lot of people will either make fun of them or if you love them, you are a hardcore loyal fan and listener. So it's a love or hate kind of relationship with ICP. They dress up as kind of scary clowns and

I don't even know. You just have to go Google it to understand. Well, what you're saying makes a lot of sense because according to reports, the ACLU filed a lawsuit against the FBI and claimed innocent fans of the music group were targeted by police as a result of the official gang classification by the FBI. And it's because fans...

And gang members would flash the same hand signs, W and C. And so, you know, maybe for the authorities, they're like, what's the difference? But like you're saying, some people are just listening to the music and enjoying it and they get into it and the band and others are actually in gangs. So how do you tell the difference? Well, I guess some people don't care there's a difference, but the ACLU is trying to help in that regard.

The case was dismissed in 2017, but the Juggalos remain classified as a gang, and authorities have stated that 85-90% of ICP followers are just fans of the group, and that only a small portion participate in actual gang activities. But a small portion of a good number of people can create a lot of havoc.

I just think it's ridiculous. Not that I want to go way off topic here, but I'm sure there's a couple Slayer fans that have committed crimes. I'm sure there's a couple fans of Taylor Swift who have committed crimes. Oh, no. You can't go after the Swifties, man. It doesn't mean that everyone that listens to a band is a bad person, and I'm glad the authorities have at least said...

85 to 90 percent of their followers are just fans and there's only a small portion who participate in gang activities. But at the same time, it's like, man, that's not how it was painted when they first said they're all in a gang. They really went after them and their fans in the beginning. Really, at the end of the day, ICP used that as leverage and said, we've been identified as gang leaders and this dangerous group.

And they put it in their songs and they sold more records.

Well, this is all kind of important just because SL was a Juggalo gang member and the local group often gathered at the gazebo in Rosemont Park. The Friday before Jessica was murdered, she was supposed to be initiated. Remember, SL had tried to get her to not do this, but Jessica didn't show. So according to SL, they rescheduled for Sunday, so it's unclear if the gang initiation was ever carried out. SL stated she saw Jessica with her mom, Tara, on her way to school. SL

SL skipped school and went to a friend's house. SL testified she attempted to call Connie around 7.15 p.m. on March 5th, 2012 because her mother didn't own a phone. SL claimed Connie answered and gave the phone to Christina, her mom, who in turn handed the phone to Christopher because she didn't want to talk. When Christopher asked, SL said she would be home around 9.30 or 10. So this is putting her out there potentially in the area, right? Because she's not home.

SL left her friend's house for a few hours and then returned. She left the friend's house again around 11.40 p.m. and then went back to the motel where she slept. Surveillance footage from the motel showed a person wearing a dark jacket and pants who up a flight of stairs at 12.03 in the morning. SL stated it might be her and another witness claimed it was her. So again, we already saw where someone in dark clothing left the park, but that footage isn't the best, is it?

No, you can't tell anything from that footage. It just appears to be a man walking and it's hundreds of feet, if not yards away and it's grainy and it's at night.

Yeah. So the context of this call between SL and Christopher, it differed with each testimony. I mean, Connie confirmed Christina didn't want to talk to SL and handed the phone to Christopher. However, she testified that she heard SL scream, could you tell my mom, please, please, can you come right now? I need your help. Come right now. And according to court documents, the defense asked Connie a leading question in which she responded that SL said, I can't do this alone.

According to Connie, the call lasted approximately 40 minutes, and Christopher asked Christina if he should go get the girls from the park. During her testimony, SL denied she made those comments during the call. So the defense is trying to set this up as if SL and maybe some other people were there at the park, but the testimonies they're getting, they're not matching up. So it's kind of a problem for the defense, is it not?

Yeah, but they're going with this because now you have a gang initiation and you have SL possibly putting herself at the park at the time of the murder. So this is, I guess, a solid defense here. And Connie would further testify that Christina asked to borrow a blanket and Connie agreed. She thought it was weird that Christopher took the blanket with him to the park and

instead of when he returned with the girls. So Connie testified she saw SL at around 11 p.m., leave one motel room and enter another. The next morning, Christopher returned Connie's blanket dressed in the same clothing that he was wearing the night before, but she says the blanket wasn't the one she loaned him. Christopher, frantic, rattled something like, I gotta get out of here.

So this is Connie saying, I let Christopher borrow a blanket. He leaves. He comes back wearing the same clothing from the night before. So he's obviously been up all night and he gives me another blanket back and he's acting very erratic. If this is true, well, personally, I would think, okay, you're going to use a blanket to wrap up a body to dispose of it. But obviously that didn't happen.

So is the blanket that important here? Because it obviously wasn't used in the commission of anything.

Yeah, this guy could have just gotten confused about which blanket he was supposed to return. I mean, some people are just, you know, they don't know. They're just doing their best to return something. Yeah. And I don't want to paint everybody that's staying at this hotel as being criminals or on drugs, but yeah, if he's out all night partying, he's not going to come back in a change of clothes either. But again, the defense is making a very solid case of we have a bunch of people who appear to be talking about

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Limited time. Exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details. Michelle, another Vince's motel resident, claimed S.L. returned around 1 or 2 in the morning. Christina and her boyfriend entered the room around 7 or 8 a.m. and informed them that a girl was killed, to which S.L. woke up and responded, Oh my God, I just beat her up.

Michelle testified S.L. cried and repeated the phrase a few times, and Christina reassured S.L. and left with S.L. and Christina's boyfriend. Michelle further claimed a knife that she shoved in the corner of the bathroom door to keep it closed was gone, though it was there the night before. Though, of course, they're trying to put all this together. But again, testimony doesn't really line up between everyone. So I'm not sure what effect it has on a jury here.

SL's going to deny all allegations and implications on cross-examination. Christopher was released from his subpoena to testify, and he just invoked the Fifth Amendment. He doesn't want to self-incriminate, and they're not getting much out of either SL or Christopher at this point. A detective arrested Christopher on March 9th of 2012 for a felony drug warrant.

They confiscated a knife on the mattress where Christopher was and another from his pocket and one from his backpack and several from his residence. Every knife was tested and none contained Jessica's DNA. But the point of this is Christopher was a suspect. They were looking at him and they were testing his knives for Jessica's DNA because he was a suspect.

According to Detective Belli, he interviewed Connie during the initial investigation, and she didn't report the conversation she testified she overheard between SL and Christopher. So that's kind of a discrepancy. According to Belli, Connie also did not tell him anything about a blanket that was returned being different than the one loaned, and that Christopher was in a panic when he returned it.

Additionally, the phone call between SL and Christopher on Connie's telephone was only two to three minutes in length. The criminologist who testified regarding the cigarette butts testified that neither Christopher nor SL's DNA was found on the cigarette butts or Jessica's belt buckle. But obviously the defense believes Ryan is innocent of the crime.

And they're trying to say or implicate that Christopher and S.L. are involved or know more about this. And they are going to keep bringing their expert witnesses on. They have a private investigator who recreated the closed and locked gates that were in the dugout. The defense argued his measurements would show that the detectives could not have entered the gates as they testified. It also showed that Ryan, when compared to the detectives,

could also not have entered the locked dugout. However, the trial court did not allow the testimony as the measurements were not obtained on the same dugout in which Jessica was found because it had been replaced. Investigators did not measure the opening of the dugout the day Jessica was discovered. The exact measurements were never recorded. The defense asked a crime scene investigator if she could fit through the fence and she testified that

She thought she might if she removed all of her gear. The female investigator was about 5'6 and weighed approximately 125 pounds and could not definitively say if she could not fit through the gate.

Let me just say this, Aaron. I don't really know what the defense is getting at here about the gates being locked and people not being able to fit through them, especially the detectives. Because obviously, Jessica's been murdered. And if they're saying Ryan didn't do this because he couldn't fit through the gate, but then they're saying SL and Christopher murdered her, well, how are they fitting through the gate?

I don't know. Well, I get what they're saying. Maybe SL could, but the problem with this is if you don't have the actual numbers from the actual locked gates, this is all pointless. It's like they made up the information. So how can they even say that this is definitive in any way? It's you could have put any numbers in there because they don't have the original numbers. So it's pointless. Yeah. I feel like it's just sort of trying to confuse the,

Yeah, I do get what you're saying. You're right. I mean, how does the asphyxiation happen if it's just another girl? It seems unlikely, right? So this situation,

defense strategy isn't really working for me. I mean, again, like you're saying, maybe they're just trying to throw everything they have and confuse things. But, you know, the defense's pathologist claimed that Jessica was killed and then stabbed in the neck because there was no arterial spray from the neck wound and not a significant pool of blood. However,

Jessica wore a jacket and had other layers on. Dr. Ryber testified that if someone were sitting or kneeling on her chest when they stabbed her, then the artery may not spurt because the compression decreased blood flow.

So the defense attempted to call an expert witness, Detective Kenny Shelton of the Sacramento Sheriff's Department, to testify about Juggalo crimes. Shelton had studied cases of Juggalo violence outside of Sacramento County, but had never investigated one personally. Moreover, the expert was not providing information about the case, like crime scene photos or anything like that. But Detective Shelton stated he could confirm

could confirm SL was a juggalo based on Facebook posts, but he could not speak specifically to the murder. The trial court allowed Shelton to testify and define what a juggalo is, but he could not give an opinion on if Jessica's death was a result of a juggalo murder. Meaning, is this a crime committed by this gang or is this a murder that was an initiation gone wrong?

You don't know enough, so all we'll allow you to say is what this gang is and what they stand for. But again, this is the defense trying to bring in other suspects and other alternative theories. Yeah, I think part of this is a strategy where if they keep saying the same names and the same talking points over and over again, maybe they can get the jury to start to buy in.

In closing arguments, the defense continued to implicate SL and Christopher based on witness testimony. They claimed the police suspected them before the DNA match was reported and the DNA was not conclusive evidence that Ryan was at the dugout. The prosecution argued Ryan smoked with Jessica, then murdered her. Witnesses and DNA evidence placed Ryan and no one else at the crime scene the night Jessica was murdered. And that's a key point here because

While you say it's this case really does hinge on the DNA. There are witnesses who put Ryan in the park when he said he wasn't there. And one of those witnesses was his friend Jamel. So there are some discrepancies there with Ryan's statements and he's caught in lies. And then you have his DNA being on the same cigarette butts as the victim.

And you start to wonder, well, okay, so the prosecution has their case. What is the defense saying? The defense is trying to implicate other people, but their DNA is not found there. So DNA, while you might say, well, it's just DNA, what do they have against SL and Christopher other than a good story, a good theory?

Because you have Connie who testifies on the stand about phone calls and erratic behavior, but at the time she was questioned by police, at the time of the murder really, none of that came out. Yeah, 100%.

So the jury obviously had a lot to consider here, Justin. What ended up happening? So they heard 50 witnesses over 11 days. After approximately six days of deliberation, September 21st, 2015, they found Ryan Douglas Roberts guilty of first-degree murder.

The jury, four women, stated there was no motive, but the evidence outweighed a lack of reasoning. When asked about the possibility of another person committing the crime as claimed by the defense, they stated, that was given much consideration. We broke it down minute by minute. We looked at all the videotape over and over again, and we just, it fell apart as we looked at it.

The harder we looked at it, the harder it was to give that any credit.

So they're saying the defense's alternate suspects and theories just fell apart. And on March 18th, 2016, Ryan was sentenced to 26 years to life in prison. So the DNA on multiple cigarette butts and on the belt buckle was enough. Yeah, I think you have to weigh into, even though we can't identify the person seen leaving the park at the time,

Well, it's one person. So when you match all the available evidence up, forget theories, which is the available evidence up against this case and the people that are suspects in the case, it's only Ryan Douglas Roberts that seems to fit.

Now, you know, if you watch anything on this case, you'll see that his mother in particular is very upset by all this. And she doesn't understand how her son was convicted given the weakness of the case against him, according to her. And you know what? I honestly feel like she's being honest there. I think you're getting the real mother there. She just doesn't see enough to say that was my son that did this. But I also see why the jury decided what they decided.

I personally think, while this is a very circumstantial case, that it's very well put together. And the defense, they had their chance to try and introduce these alternate suspects and stuff, but there's just nothing evidence-wise to back it up. It sounds good as a theory. If you just listen to them, it sounds good, but they can't even get the witnesses to give similar testimony. It changes. And then you have, like you pointed out so well, you

You have a witness who changes what they're saying over time. And then it's like, well, why didn't they mention that from the get go? That would have been pretty important. Right. So really, I feel for Ryan's family. I feel like they don't understand what happened here. And I don't know who does, but credit to the prosecution. I think they put together a pretty good case here.

I don't know. It appears to be it was either Ryan or it was SL and Christopher. And if you're going to choose between the two, well, obviously DNA evidence points to only one of them.

Now, I will say, was that enough for Ryan's conviction? I mean, if you're going to put a gun to my head and say, pick one or the other, I'm picking Ryan. But if you're going to say, does this mean he's guilty? I'm not sure if that's enough or not to find him guilty of first-degree murder. I think that there are some questions there. And obviously, Ryan's family has a lot of concerns about that. And his defense team is still outspoken.

after the guilty verdict and sentencing, they're going to appeal this and point out a lot of problems they find with the trial and his conviction.

In 2016, Ryan's defense team filed a motion for a new trial based on new evidence. His team claimed that after the trial, Christopher talked to a defense investigator and stated he took a blanket to SL the night of Jessica's murder. When he arrived, he saw SL, Christina, and Christina's boyfriend in the dugout by Jessica's body. Christopher claimed he left the scene and hid until the following morning.

Christopher's brother, Johnny, and his brother's friend, Joseph Madigan, collaborated the story in interviews with the defense investigator. But before the hearing on the motion for the new trial, Johnny and Joseph recanted portions of their statement. Prosecutors looked over the statements and noticed the signatures had inconsistencies. The prosecutorial team alleged the signatures were fake.

Now, I will say this, Aaron, I'm not going to get into whether these signatures are fake or not, but it seems that Johnny and Joseph had made statements and then they recanted portions of that. I think that's enough to say, well, are they telling the truth or not? They didn't come forward at the time. And then this whole idea of...

Christopher saying, oh, the night of, I saw SL, Christina, and Christina's boyfriend at the dugout next to Jessica's body. Well, that's a totally different theory now than the original defense's argument that it was Christopher and SL. Now it's SL, Christina, and Christina's boyfriend. Completely different scenario.

And how it's going to be almost impossible to go back and try to vet that now, years later, unless Christina or her boyfriend would just confess to something. I don't think there's any way to prove this. And the fact that Christopher's story has completely changed, and then Johnny and Joseph has returned.

recanted their statements, not all of it, but some of it. I don't know if that's new evidence, I guess. I don't think that rises to the level of reasonable doubt that the first trial would have gone a different way. Well, in short, I guess what you're saying is if we're to believe this story, then it's in conflict with the story the defense gave at trial.

That's it. And so how, how does this help them? It's like, they keep saying, oh, but what about this? What about that? And it's like, don't you need a full story for us to get into to understand the case? And it really feels like the defense is just like they chose a story at trial. It didn't work out for the jury. And now they're coming up with another story saying, ah, but what about this? It's not even consistent there either.

And I understand if you find the truth out later, oh, it was so-and-so, Colonel Mustard in the library with the candlestick, and now you have evidence of that. I understand changing your entire narrative, but this new narrative doesn't seem to pan out either. And obviously, the judge hears these arguments, and he sides with the prosecution, and the motion for a new trial is denied.

Yeah, so they file another appeal in 2021 with the 3rd Appellate District of California, which was reviewed by Judge Garrett W. Wood. Now, in this appeal, they allege major issues and cumulative errors that led to a guilty verdict. They are, one, DNA evidence used as evidence in the 2015 trial violated Ryan's Fourth Amendment right of illegal search and seizure. Two, the trial court withheld witness testimony that could have persuaded the jury, specifically Shelton's gang testimony.

Three, the trial court denied defense from presenting the jury with demonstrative evidence in regards to the locked dugout gate. Four, the jury was not provided pinpoint instruction, clear, specific, of third-party culpability for deliberation as requested by the defendant. Five, the errors previously listed resulted in a cumulative effect that resulted in a guilty verdict. Six, the trial court erred in its judgment to deny a new trial in 2016, and

And seven, the trial court denied motion for a new trial based on juror misconduct.

DNA evidence used as evidence in 2015 violated his Fourth Amendment right. There is an argument here that he had a felony arrest previously where they took his DNA. Now, the charges were dropped. At that point, you need to get an attorney to say, wipe my DNA out of CODIS. Destroy my DNA because...

You took my DNA, and then you never charged me with a crime. So they're saying that's a Fourth Amendment violation. And the only reason why they even had his DNA was because of this prior arrest, but no conviction. It's a solid argument, but it's what California does to a lot of people. And I appreciate their argument here of keeping and holding people's DNA long after they need to, but...

That's just the way the system is. I don't agree with it, but that's the argument. Yeah, but the judge is making the right call here because no matter how much they don't like the law, the law is when you're booked, your DNA is taken. If that's the law, then that's the law. So I don't know what their argument is here. And unfortunately, we go through all of this and there's a lot of stuff like this.

And then the second point, trial court withheld testimony from Shelton, who talks about the Juggalos gang.

Again, he just knows stuff about this gang. He doesn't know anything about this murder. And I think his testimony, as limited as it was, was all the more, I guess, valid as it could have been. He says there is a gang that exists and SL appears to be a member of that gang.

That's all the more information we can verify. So they're trying to say, oh, he had a lot more to say and you didn't allow him to say it. But I'm thinking nothing more he could have said would have been valid or applicable to this case. Yeah. I mean, how much more can you get out of this guy than what he said?

The third is trial court denied defense from presenting the jury with evidence in regards to the locked dugout gate. We already kind of covered this, but now we're saying that it's S.L.,

her friend and her friend's boyfriend all were able to fit through a small passageway in the dugout lockout gate. And again, well, her mother. Yeah. I haven't seen pictures of this gate, but obviously people got in there. People got into the dugout. So whether it was Ryan or somebody else, people were able to fit into there. And then you have to bring up, oh, the wind blew through.

cigarette butts next to her body because Ryan couldn't have fit in there. So he smoked her cigarettes by the park bench and then the wind blew it all into the dugout. He couldn't have fit in there. That's their argument. Well, but this doesn't make sense to me because they're trying to say that it was SL, her mom and her mom's boyfriend. But then that doesn't really jive with what was said earlier in testimony where SL was surprised by the

you know, learning of her friend's death and said, I just beat her up. Well, why is she having to clarify that for her mom and her mom's boyfriend if they were there? This doesn't mesh together.

Very frustrating for me reading all this, but it's part of the process, I suppose. All the other things, I don't want to just skip over them, but all the other things are pretty much, you erred in the previous trial by not doing these things and not giving him a new trial. You erred in the appeal by not granting him a new trial. So that's it. And I get their arguments.

The first one about the Fourth Amendment right is the only one that I agree with, even though that's not exactly the law. Judge Wood agreed with defendant that Shelton's proposed testimony beyond the mere definition of what a juggalo is had some tendency in reason to prove or disprove any disputed fact that is of consequence to the determination of the action and was thus relevant.

Now, Ryan's team believed a demonstration of the measurements by their investigator would prove what they were saying about the lock dugout. But again, if you don't have the numbers, I don't understand what the point of this is. So that's not strong enough evidence. The judge goes through and reviews all of this stuff. But what ends up happening is Judge Wood affirms the decision that was made in 2016, and Ryan was denied a new trial for a second time.

Justin, we kind of went through this and I'm glad where you chose to kind of skip ahead a little bit or at least give a summary of things because really a lot of these arguments by the defense is they're just trying to defend their client, but they don't really have enough here.

Again, Ryan's family, I feel for them, but Ryan is the only person that they can confirm was there with Jessica. And this whole refi thing, that's not really enough for me because how does he share cigarettes with someone who ended up being killed that night? It just seems kind of odd.

So in summary, the defense is saying he could not have fit under or through the gate of the dugout. So therefore, if his DNA is on these cigarette butts, he smoked them outside of the dugout and then they blew into the dugout and there were other people that murdered her. But we don't have their DNA and all accounts and statements putting them there have been either recanted or have changed over the years. So,

So it's almost impossible to prove anyone else besides Ryan was there at the time of the murder. I guess I understand why his mother and his supporters take some issues here, because I feel like it's hard to find somebody guilty just based solely on some cigarette butts. But the belt buckle is kind of the clincher for me. Like, why would his DNA be on a belt buckle?

This is a really sad case because it's clear that Jessica had trouble at home. And so she would run away a bit, you know, stay with other people. Maybe she was in situations she shouldn't have been because of this. She's smoking cigarettes that she stole from her dad. And it seems like she was often unsupervised, fending for herself. Some people, people like you or others we know, they were unsupervised a lot when they were at this age. But

It's the circumstances. It's the area they're in. And some people are just more at risk than others. And unfortunately, it feels like Jessica, she wasn't having the best life. And then something terrible happened to her and her life was ended. I imagine, though, that her family takes solace in the fact that there was a conviction here. And they very much believe in the case put together by the prosecution and the investigators. ♪♪

Hey, Prime members. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the app today. At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I don't know.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names, about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph.

My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.