Will Carter Jr - 626
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Get started risk-free at greenlight.com slash Wondery. How are you doing tonight, Aaron? I'm doing good, Justin. How are you today? I'm doing great. Do we have any announcements today?

Oh, yeah, we have lots of announcements. First, I want to say there will be some great events happening this year. And if you want to see one or both of us at them, you want to go and take a look at which ones you can attend. Let's start with the one that's happening soonest. It's CrimeCon UK in London, June 7th and 8th.

Use our code Gen Y. If you are in the London area or can make it there, please go. Can't wait to talk with you. Also, True Crime Podcast Festival, TCPF, happening July 18th and 20th in Boston, Massachusetts. Use our code Gen Y20. You know, I haven't been to Boston in many years, but I'm looking forward to getting back there. And I know some of you, talking to you over the years,

who live in Boston. I hope you're going to be there. I can't wait to meet with you. And then of course, CrimeCon, September 5th and 7th. This is going to be in Denver, Colorado. Denver is such a great city. Use our code GenY to get tickets. Let them know that you want to see us there. Those are the notes for where we're going to be at. And then...

My other note is, I've been working behind the scenes on season three of Framed. And over the years, Justin, I've had a number of people write and ask, when will there be another season of the long form series that you were a part of? Well, Framed season three, it's well underway now, and I'm looking at releasing it this year. So I would suggest going back and listening to season one and season two of Framed. I'm really excited for

for season three here, and I think it's going to be amazing. Yay! Looking forward to hearing it. So Aaron, tonight's case is a self-defense or homicide case. There's a lot of controversy about this case. The person in question, her family, her roommate, they're all on record supporting her. And of course, the deceased, the victim in this case, everyone believes that

She is a cold-blooded murderer who absolutely manipulated this whole situation.

I will say this, Aaron. I can see both sides of the argument. There are certain things that stick out to me, and there are a lot of problems with the investigation. So it's not a simple one to me to just make up your mind, and I can't wait to hear what our fans think about this case. So what are we talking about tonight? Tonight we're talking about...

A call that police got from 30-year-old Victoria Rickman in DeKalb County, Georgia on September 13th, 2013. And when they responded, she claimed that she shot and killed her 30-year-old boyfriend, Will Carter Jr., in self-defense. And so this will be a he said, she said kind of case, even though...

The evidence is what's speaking for him. There's also evidence speaking for her, as well as her testimony saying that this was self-defense. And it's an interesting case. So William James Carter Jr., who goes by Will, he was born October 7th, 1982 in Phoenix, Arizona, to William Carter Sr. and his

Caro Carter. Not long after Will's birth, the Carter family relocated to Orlando, Florida, where they resided for about 16 years. As a coastal kid, Will loved the ocean, surfing, all of the things that go along with the beach. And then in 1998, the family moved to Atlanta, Georgia. Throughout high school, Will was involved in football, baseball, as well as less common athletics like skateboarding and snowboarding, kind of like me.

After high school, he enrolled at the College of Charleston, where he studied for two years.

He had multiple jobs as an adult, and he eventually became the CEO and president of the Georgia Select Insurance Company. In less than five years, Will's insurance business had expanded to five offices. His success was preceded by years of mental illness and legal trouble. So this is kind of a comeback story for Will here. In 2005 and 2008,

Will was arrested for property damage and drug use. His charges included public intoxication as well as criminal trespassing. But after 10 years of battling addiction to drugs and alcohol, he checked into a rehab facility and got sober. When he started his business, Will hired people who were deemed less desirable to most employers because he understood how difficult it could be to start over.

And he was a mentor for others in his community. So this is a great story for Will. He's struggling in life. He gets sober and he literally is the CEO and president of a new insurance company that's highly successful. He's doing great. He also had a child, Lily, and it was said that he was dedicated to being a good father and he spent a lot of time with her as a co-parent.

Friends and family described Will as charismatic, funny, outgoing, and dedicated to the people in his life. Now, Will met Victoria Rickman in the early 2010s through mutual friends after a contentious divorce. Victoria was a single mother of one son and worked as a marketing consultant.

And what started as an exciting new relationship soon turned tumultuous. For about three years, the relationship consisted of them frequently breaking up and then making up. Police records revealed multiple 911 calls related to domestic disputes. And despite their less than stable relationship, Will and Victoria lived together for a time until early 2013 when Victoria moved out to go live with a friend.

So we have a lot of breakups and getting back together, calls to police. This is serious. I mean, domestic violence. It's obvious that they're toxic for each other. And I'm going to say for each other, because when it comes to these type of relationships, it's hard to just be like, oh, they're a bad person. I'm just going to leave because you do love this person. And then you make up.

And then you're together for a little while and it works out. But Victoria is accusing Will of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. On one occasion, Victoria called the police and stated Will tried to rape her. When police arrived, Will had an injury on his head and Victoria didn't appear to have any visible injuries. However, Victoria's friend, Brittany Morgan, saw Victoria with bruises on two separate occasions.

allegedly all from Will. So this call here, she's saying he tried to rape me and Will is bleeding from the head. I guess she hit him with a hammer or something to fight him off. So this is pretty serious stuff here.

In May 2013, Will called 911 when Victoria showed up to his home and insisted he let her in the house. Victoria forcibly entered Will's home and grabbed him by the gold necklace on his neck and forcefully led him around his house demanding to know to whom he had been talking. Now, Will got free and then he made her leave. In response, Victoria ran around the neighborhood and yelled, Rape!

A neighbor helped her, and Victoria claimed Will had beat and raped her. However, witnesses stated this didn't happen, and Victoria recorded part of the incident on her phone. However, that recording directly contradicted her claims that Will was the aggressor. Will asked her to leave multiple times and said he didn't want anything to do with her. But Victoria refused to leave and even appeared to dare Will to get violent. So...

You know, it's tough to know when there are all these allegations flying around that

But if at any point someone makes what they say a false claim, it starts to affect their credibility. But just know that there are people that completely support Victoria and say, no, no, she really was attacked this or that. But then there are other people saying, well, that never happened. Or even her own recording seems to suggest that she was the one trying to egg him on and get him to do something to her. This recording is,

Is very damning for her, but it is completely out of context. Also, it's hard to make out what's really happening besides will telling her to get out and her, you know, trying to egg them on into a fight.

But if they did have a physical altercation, maybe this is her response to that. But again, it's very damning against her. So when the cops got there, Victoria alleged that Will had assaulted her, but responding officers noted the lack of visible injuries.

So, and we understand, you know, if there's domestic violence abuse, it's not always in the form of a physical punch or something like that. Sometimes it's the way you're speaking to someone. It's the way you can control them. So Will and Victoria continued to talk after the volatile exchange and Will seemed to express a mix of emotions. Victoria contacted the mother of Will's child and started throwing around accusations. And Will told Victoria he was angry about what she had done and

But he also said that he loved her. So obviously, there's a lot going on here. Yeah. And it's just six months later, September 10th, 2013, Will called police again because Victoria wouldn't leave his residence. Victoria claimed Will had hit her, but officers again saw no visible signs of physical abuse. So leading up to the dispute, Victoria texted Will and claimed he threatened and kidnapped her.

So I will say this right now. It seems that Will is the one that's saying, I need to get her out of here. And she's the one that's saying he attacked me. But the lack of physical marks on her definitely makes people think, well, she's lying. But I'll say, you know, it's like if, if

If you just grab somebody by their collar and shake them, is there going to be any physical marks on somebody? No. And this is why her family and friends very much support her because just because there isn't a bruise on her doesn't mean it didn't happen.

On September 13th, 2013, Victoria texted her friend, Andrew Scar. That's who she was living with. Told him not to come home because she didn't want to see a man. Well, that was Andrew's house, but he obliged and he went to his mom's house to stay there for the night.

Victoria then started exchanging texts and phone calls with Will, and he told her about his frustration with her, but he also said that he loved her. Yeah. She was living with Andrew Scar as roommates at that time, but it's at 2.16 a.m. on September 13th, 2013. Victoria makes a frantic call to 911.

and reported that she shot Will in self-defense. During this 911 call, Victoria states, My ex came in and he raped me and I shot him. I don't think he's okay. I didn't want to hurt him, but he wouldn't stop.

And so responding officers are going to arrive at this residence on Clifton Road in DeKalb County to find Victoria at the door holding her small dog. Will's car was parked in the driveway. Victoria did not appear to have any injuries and she was calm. She told officers, he raped me again and I shot him.

Now, this can be interpreted in multiple ways. As always, she's calm after shooting somebody. So people are like, yeah, she meant to do it. She's not freaking out, but maybe she's in shock. Those are the two ways to look at this situation.

Inside the home, they found Will's lifeless body lying face up in bed, unclothed, and with multiple gunshot wounds. His watch was on the nightstand, and his gold chain was clutched in his left hand. His clothes were in a pile on the floor beside the bed, and police reported the scene showed no signs of a struggle or forced entry, and the positioning of the body and evidence raised immediate questions for them about what really occurred.

And there were some signs of disarray in the room, but it wasn't trashed by any means. I think it was like a sound machine or a humidifier or something was kind of knocked off the bed and maybe one lamp was kind of leaning up against a wall. But ultimately, there wasn't a huge struggle in this room. There wasn't a huge fight. And there might not be.

Detective Summer Benton of the Atlanta Police Department was in charge of the investigation, but was accompanied by a film crew from the reality television show Inside Homicide. They got on scene close to 3 a.m. Nine shell casings were recovered in the bedroom, and the .40 caliber semi-automatic handgun used in the shooting, or at least believed used in the shooting, was found in a nightstand drawer on the opposite side of the bed from where Will was laying.

There was blood spatter high up on the wall, which indicated Will coughed while standing. The blood spatter covered the curtains, window, and a pillow on the floor. So this evidence is suggesting that Will was facing the wall when he was shot before falling onto the bed where he was shot more times. At around 3.40 a.m.,

Detective Benton spoke to Andrew, who stated he'd known Victoria his whole life. He informed Benton he wasn't home when Will was shot because Victoria had asked him to stay elsewhere so she could be alone. So her roommate, or the guy that owns the house, Andrew, stated that while he and Victoria weren't dating, they had discussed it. He further claimed Will had never been to the house before that night.

And Andrew says he absolutely believes her story. However, some of the neighbors have told a different story. They stated that different cars parked frequently at the house, but Will's gray BMW was there once a week or every other week. And he had been there several times. About a month before, they saw Will, Victoria, and Victoria's daughter leave the house for a Braves game altogether.

So whether or not her roommate knows about Will coming to this home, he doesn't know. Maybe he's lying, maybe he doesn't know. But obviously, Will and Victoria have been seeing each other off and on at this point. And it's referred to as her ex-boyfriend and boyfriend. They intertwine. So it's like...

are they together or not? Well, it's not that simple. Yeah. So detective Benton, she pressed Andrew about the neighbor's statements and Andrew claimed he didn't know other men were coming over. He insisted he didn't know Will was coming over regularly and said, I know that a lot of things might seem odd, but I know that guy had some issues. Like you said, if Victoria and Will are an item here and there, and it's not consistent because they have these terrible fights, uh,

then she has some over here and there. And maybe other people are coming over too, but Andrew apparently doesn't know. If you work in fulfillment or any kind of e-commerce, you know it can get a little chaotic.

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So four hours into this investigation, Detective Benton will call Will's father, notify his parents that Will is dead. Will's father stated that the relationship was very volatile and that Victoria threatened them as well as Will. They added extra locks on their door and feared for Will's safety.

Uh, Will was afraid Victoria would try to break into his house and hurt him. So he purchased a gun for protection. According to detective Benton, the parents claimed they always knew this was going to happen. They warned Will multiple times. Every time there was a breakup, they would say, you need to be done with her. But again, Will would contact her or she would contact Will and they would make up and continue seeing each other. What did they find in the search of this home, Aaron?

Yeah, they found books about domestic violence, and in those were highlighted passages, as well as copious amounts of criminal justice material. There were court cases, photocopies of their text messages, and notes, all thoroughly labeled and organized. So again, I just want to stop on that. Is this somebody who is going through domestic violence and trying to

figure out how to defend themselves, figure out how to deal with the situation? Or is this somebody who is planning and scheming to make up a scene where she can use self-defense as a defense?

And again...

Typically associated. A lack of evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen, but if the evidence was there, it would definitely corroborate the story. So, you know, if you are a victim of sexual assault, it doesn't automatically mean you're going to have trauma or bruising or anything, especially if you're not fighting back.

So this is a hard one to splice out here. But again, she doesn't have any telltale signs of being viciously attacked. She's just been attacked. An autopsy performed later revealed that Will had been shot 10 times with bruises on his chin and left arm likely caused by a blunt object.

He suffered one shot in the arm, two in the head, three in the back, and four to his chest. That's a lot. And that's going to be hard for anyone to defend. So many shots all over his body. So at 9.15 a.m.,

Victoria was at the police station for an interview with Detective Benton. When asked if she was willing to speak without an attorney, Victoria asked for an attorney and they obliged. But Victoria then said she would talk to her about some things but didn't know how the process worked because she'd never been in trouble before. Victoria stated, I don't feel that I did anything wrong. I mean, I'm not going to do anything wrong.

I know we've gone back and forth. Billy's history, he has beaten and raped me quite a few times and gotten off every time. So this does happen in the real world where people do get away with

beating somebody and the cops are just like, we don't know who to believe. And they just leave the situation. There are times when somebody is being physically abused over years and nothing's done about it. But again, when you take in some of the background here of the video that Victoria has of Will telling her, get out, you know, get out of my house, get out of here and having no visible physical marks on her body. It's, it's hard to

So Detective Benton then reminds Victoria that she had asked for a lawyer and says, you know, I can't really speak to you about this. So what she does is she gives Victoria back her phone and then leaves, but is watching her on the CCTV that's in the room. And she says, I can't really speak to you about this.

And Victoria, after Detective Benton is gone, immediately texts somebody and then makes a call and says, I don't know what to do. I need help. So Detective Benton then goes back in the room and tells Victoria she's getting a search warrant for her phone and would need to take it. Victoria.

Victoria asked for phone numbers from her phone, because as we know, a lot of people don't remember all the numbers. They are just in the phone. And Detective Benton offered to write a few down for her. Victoria asked for number after number, and Benton grew annoyed. So this detective's annoyed, but, you know, this seems like a simple request. So then she goes to take the phone from Victoria, which then ends up with the two in a heated exchange. Yeah, I mean, this is...

The detective's like, I'll give you some numbers. But Detective Benton's like, how many people are you wanting to call? And Victoria says, I have about six attorneys on this case because he raped me and beaten me quite a few times. And the detective says, can one of the attorneys get in touch with the others? Victoria says, nope.

Benton says, okay, then I have 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, all the way up to 19, 20 names. Pass me your phone, hand me your phone. And they go back and forth here, Aaron, for a long time during this. And Benton's arguing with her about you don't need to call nine attorneys. You don't need to call all of these people. And at this point, Victoria is

saying, I'll call a news station and tell them about it. And Benton's like, you're more than welcome to call the news station. Victoria says, I already did. This is, I guess, Victoria saying, I'm going to burn you down too. I'm going to tell everyone how I'm being treated right now.

Yeah. I mean, Detective Benton says you're more than welcome to call anybody you want. And Victoria said, I will. But I think a lot of this comes down to Detective Benton really needs that phone because she feels like there could be evidence on that phone. So that phone is considered evidence by the lead detective. But Victoria doesn't really want to lose the phone. So there's kind of a tussle over it.

And I'm actually on Detective Benton's side here because that phone is evidence. Victoria might be trying to delete text, delete information on there that she doesn't want anyone to see. And Detective Benton's like, nope, I need that phone right now. And I'm willing to give you a couple numbers just as a courtesy. So I'm on Detective Benton's side at this point. So obviously, Detective Benton is waiting for the search warrant to be granted, expects it to be granted.

So she moves on and starts doing kind of a canvas. Like let's talk to people who knew this couple before,

One of Victoria's ex-boyfriends she spoke to claimed that Victoria once poured cold water on him while he slept, and she also attempted to jump out of a car multiple times. Court documents revealed that Victoria accused her ex-boyfriend, William Plunkett, of physical and sexual assault. Now, Victoria had moved in with him in August of 2012, but that living arrangement didn't last very long.

Plunkett asked her to move out, but she refused and threatened to accuse him of abuse if he called the police. Yeah, not looking good. Relationships can be very messy. I guess that's, you know, that's the point here. And you can either look at this as evidence of why she might put together such a plan or that she just ended up in these types of relationships.

And so it's not really a pattern that says anything about her. It's just, you know, as some people say, not good at picking them. Now, this next piece of information, Aaron, does strike a chord with me, at least. One of Will's friends came into the station for an interview, and he stated that he talked to Will at around 1145 p.m. that night, the night Will was killed. Will told him Victoria asked him to come over and

Will was going despite his friend's advice not to go because everybody knows this is a very toxic relationship. Before they ended the call, Will jokingly said, oh, she's probably going to kill me this time. The next morning, he sent Will a text that jokingly said, so did you make it through the night? Then later that day, he found out that his friend Will had been killed that night.

So the friend reported Will and Victoria were on again, off again for two and a half to three years. And he said that Victoria falsely accused Will of physical and sexual assault, which ended up with his arrest. According to the friend, the charges had been dropped because Victoria told people the accusations had been a lie. He didn't believe Will was truly afraid for his life or in danger or even expecting that Victoria would kill him.

It's just very strange that he would say, oh, she's probably going to kill me this time. But, you know, they've been having problems for a few years.

And she'd never killed him. So why would it happen this time? But it's just weird that he says it. Yeah. I mean, it's one thing to make the joke like, oh, I messed up. You know, I forgot our anniversary. She's going to kill me. As opposed to, I'm in a very toxic relationship with this person who everyone knows we've called the police on each other. She's probably going to kill me this time. Is there any truth to that? Is it all a joke? Yeah.

It's a difference in context here. Yeah, we talked about the evidence seized from Victoria Rickman's residence, talked about the court documents, photocopies of text messages, printed emails. Well, Detective Benton talked to the district attorney's office in Cobb County and requested any records on file of sexual assault reported by Victoria.

This is any record, not anything just having to do with Will, but in total reported by Victoria Rickman. And according to Detective Benton, the DA responded that the list was so extensive, it was too big to email. So Detective Benton arrested and charged Victoria within 12 hours of Will's murder. During her arrest, she cited the inconsistencies in her account and the physical evidence that

So photos were obtained during the arrest and Victoria was transported. But Victoria was denied bail and held in jail until her trial. This is a big deal in the investigation because according to Victoria and her supporters, she was basically told at the beginning that, you know, this was probably self-defense and they would, you know, try to get through this as quickly as possible. But then it ends up

Within 12 hours, now Victoria Rickman is under arrest for murder. So in their minds, this is a switch and it was unexpected.

But because of this, Victoria, during these past few years, she has called the police on will. She has had problems. And she did come into contact with another Cobb County Sheriff Deputy, Rick Price. And on the second day of this investigation, Detective Benton is informed that Deputy Rick Price admitted to giving Victoria a gun along with four magazines for protection.

He reported to his superiors that the relationship wasn't serious, and this is the same .40 caliber handgun that was used to shoot Will. So Price chose not to give an interview and refused to speak with law enforcement about Victoria. He was fired five days after Will's death for his lack of cooperation with the investigation.

I'm going to infer that Deputy Rick Price had some interest in Victoria, believed her stories that Will was abusing her, and gave her this .40 caliber Glock pistol for defense. Yeah, that's possible. It's also possible that...

He felt like he would incriminate himself if he chose to cooperate. And I mean, if you're law enforcement, you know how it works. And giving somebody a gun that then is used as a murder weapon, that's, yeah, that's going to burn you. So the search warrant for Victoria's phone, it results in text messages revealing that she had called Price, texted Price while in the interview room.

The two exchanged a total of 176 phone calls as well as about 20 text messages in the time that they knew each other. And despite Price's claims, text of friends stated that they dated for about three months, though their current relationship status was not clear. Photos from around July of 2013 showed Victoria at a shooting range holding and shooting firearms. Phone records also revealed Victoria called Price at 2.14 a.m.,

Before she called 911 at 2.16 a.m. the morning that Will was shot. People panic, but probably should call 911 first. Detective Benton, pretty sure she has this all figured out. She thinks that Victoria planned the murder and trained to kill Will. She befriended Price and he taught her how to handle a gun and reload the magazines.

Detective Benton has arrested Victoria within 12 hours of this, citing all the inconsistencies in her account. And there's very little physical evidence of a struggle and even injuries on Victoria's.

Detective Benton told the cameras Victoria knew how to trick a man and was manipulative but competent. Detective Benton, during this investigation, she's talking to this reality TV show she's with, and she makes comments about Victoria's guilt. She makes comments about how she doesn't believe her. And

And she makes a comment that Victoria had to have reloaded the pistol to shoot Will that many times. And those things will come into the trial and it's not going to be good.

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So the trial commenced on August 22nd, 2017, which is about four years after the incident. The prosecution argued that

that Victoria Rickman fabricated the rape allegation as a means to justify the premeditated murder of Will Carter Jr. To support their case, they focused on several things. Victoria's lack of defensive wounds or trauma, as noted by medical professionals who looked her over. The three shots fired into Will's back, along with the others fired at a downward angle. So to them, they're saying it's really clear that some of these shots were fired while Will was standing,

The prosecution, led by Sheila Ross, emphasized that Victoria's disturbing actions throughout her tumultuous relationship with Will, she said, between the time she was arrested and the time she was released, she said,

Between March and April of 2012, Victoria took Will's phone and sent threatening text messages to herself, attempting to make it look like Will had sent them. Court documents revealed that in January of 2012, Victoria called the police and accused Will of holding her down and sexually assaulting her.

Victoria's wrists showed red marks while Will had a bite mark on his shoulder and a head injury from a hammer. Victoria claimed she hit him in self-defense. Will was arrested and charged with sexual assault and simple battery. The charges were dropped when Victoria admitted to court officials that she had lied about the sexual assault. I will say this, Aaron. Sometimes if you are being abused and

and you call the police, and then you find out that your abuser is going to face really bad charges, sometimes the victim will come back and be like, okay, it didn't happen. But there's kind of a pattern here with Victoria where it seems that she is making a lot of allegations and then taking them back, but

Even with prior boyfriends, she seems to have these problems. So it's hard to take her at her word when she makes these allegations. Yeah, I want to read through something that the prosecutors used in court here. It is about the May 2013 dispute and the video that Victoria recorded on her phone. Will says, why are you taking pictures of me? And Victoria says, why?

Why are you naked? Who are you on the phone with? And he says, dude, I'm going to need you to get out of here. No, no, no, no, no, no. Look, you're not coming in my house. I have no clothes on. And then she says, you just put your hands on me again. And he said, I have no effing clothes on. Dude, you just showed up at my effing house. I told you not to be here. And she says, F out of here, dude. I'm scared of you. You terrify me. You are already doing this. Get out of here. And she says, why are you acting like this?

I don't want you in my life anymore, dude. I'm serious, Will said. And then she says, fine, right now, open the door. And he said, no. And she said, all my stuff is upstairs. And he said, no, it's not. And she repeats it again. And he says, there's nothing upstairs. All you are is a toxic web of lies.

Stop it. So this kind of continues on. And then he says, I'll call the effing police. And she says, do it. It's obvious that she showed up and she wants in and he's telling her to get out of there. Again, you could say like she's showing up there. She's bugging him, but she claims is because her stuff's in his place and she wants it back.

They're going to confiscate multiple phones, and they're going to have Detective Kevin Leon Packer testify to cell phone analysis collected during this investigation. They get five cell phones, two from Will, two from Victoria, and one from Deputy Sheriff Price.

Hours before Will was killed, he texted Victoria, upset that she called his child's mother. And one text read, Will also stated he was going to press charges against Victoria for harassment and trespassing in May of 2013. So this is interesting because hours before he's killed, they're having an argument about

But somehow Will ends up at her house. Yeah, you're referencing where he ends up being shot to death.

Yeah. So Victoria's text messages, they're used by the prosecution to show a motive. So there's at one point where she's texting former deputy price and the text reads, he wants me put away now referencing will my only hope is to change his mind. The prosecution points this out as the motive for killing will. She's actually afraid that he's got

something real to work with here and that the police will come and arrest her and she doesn't want that. But the defense, you know, they have a response to this and her defense attorney is Amanda Clark Palmer and she focuses on the alleged abuse by Will and the bias exemplified in the reality show filmed during this investigation. According to the defense, Will told Victoria he was going to kill her, assaulted her like he had in the past.

Victoria shot him in fear of her life. They argued that Victoria was a battered woman, and photos of bruising on Victoria's arm from the encounter of May 2013 were evidence of the abuse. Victoria even attempted to get a restraining order against Will, but the courthouse was closed.

It was there she met Deputy Sheriff Rick Price, who gave her the gun that she used to kill Will. So in the defense's opening statement to the jury, Detective Benton was painted as an attention-seeking TV personality. The show was filmed without Victoria's consent, and the focus was on being a reality star instead of the focus being on the victim of a rape and the tragic events that unfolded.

The cameras caused a quick and shoddy investigation and lacked thorough analysis of the scene and the abuse in history between Will and Victoria.

So, of course, Detective Benton takes the stand and testified that there were no signs of forced entry or a struggle. However, the defense pointed to a lamp and sound machine that had fallen off the nightstand where Victoria kept the gun. According to the defense, this was proof of a struggle. Detective Benton also testified that the gun held 12 bullets and nine were found at the scene while four remained in the chamber for a total of 13 bullets. However, the defense pointed to a lamp and sound machine

The gun actually held 13 bullets and detective Benton confirmed she didn't write that in a report. So there's some dispute here about the number of bullets, but this isn't something that can't be figured out because lock is a very popular firearm and we know how many bullets the gun can hold. And this is a big deal, Aaron, because detective Benton is saying she reloaded and

And, you know, whether it's the Menendez brothers, whether, you know, there's so many cases out there where the fact that somebody reloaded as opposed to just shooting them once or twice, it's always held against them as overkill.

Here we have Benton saying she reloaded, but that gun did hold 13 bullets. So she did not reload that gun. It was 10 shots and then there was a few bullets left. No reloading, so no chance to stop and deliberate. This reality show and Benton's comments about this are very prejudicial and absolutely false.

Well, let's explain this because you could have a round loaded and then you could have three left in the magazine. Yeah. That would be four. If the gun holds 13 and Will Carter Jr. was shot 10 times.

How many bullets should be left in the gun? It holds 13. I've been out scouring the Glock website and they have two types of a 40 caliber Glock. One holds 10 rounds, one holds 13. And if she shot him multiple times and then needed to reload, it doesn't make sense that one magazine would be full and another one would be half full or she would put more bullets into a magazine and

No, I think this is a one moment of her pulling the trigger 10 times and then stopping. And that's it. Yeah. But it said that there were four left in the gun. But you can have one in the barrel. Right. But you'd have four, but there were 10 shots at will. So that would equal 14, right? Yeah. Yeah. So one's ready to go and then you have 13 more. So she shoots them 10 times. That makes sense.

Well, I'm sure we'll hear from people because this is a big deal. I think it's pretty much debunked that she reloaded. To me, there's no common sense way to explain why she would have reloaded a couple bullets into a magazine as opposed to just swapping out the magazine. Because at that point, if the first magazine was full, it would have had just 13 rounds. She didn't shoot 13 times. So tactical reload, why when there's bullets left? It doesn't really...

really gel for me. But as soon as people hear you reloaded a weapon during a self-defense, they automatically assume, well, if you reloaded, then you meant to murder them. If you reloaded, you had a chance to stop. And that's why it's so damning to Victoria that this statement was made when it's probably not true. Prejudicial. Very prejudicial. So Victoria Rickman in her defense claimed that

Victoria had bruises from the attack. According to the defense, medical records from the Sexual Assault Forensic Evidence Kit noted bruising on Victoria's arms, though Detective Benton had claimed the contrary. However, Detective Leon Packer's testimony called the proof of abuse into question because selfies taken by Victoria on her phone on September 12, 2013, around 1 a.m., showed bruises on her arm.

So these would be bruises on her arm prior to the attack.

as opposed to made during the attack is what they're suggesting here. So the defense will call Dr. John Lockridge, Will's psychiatrist, to the stand. And Dr. Lockridge testified that on September 10th of 2013, Will told him he was having delusions. On the stand, Dr. Lockridge stated, he said he thought he was famous, he was on TV, he was talking to and through the TV.

The doctor also reported that Will took an antipsychotic to sleep, and Victoria and the defense allege that Will stopped taking his medication and was using substances again. This claim, though, could not be substantiated because a toxicology report was not requested by Detective Benton. So the defense is saying he was being weird, acting out of sorts. He could have been using drugs.

But we'll never know because...

And where they're at, the detective is the one that has to request a toxicology report during the autopsy. I think that's lame that they have to do that. I think it should just be an automatic thing. But this was Detective Benton's first murder investigation, so she didn't know the process. A Georgia medical examiner testified that he believed that Will was sitting and turned towards Victoria when the first shots were fired into his chest.

This corroborates the defense's theory that Will was shot in the chest, stood up and coughed, causing the blood spatter on the wall, curtain, and floor, and then he was shot in the back. He fell back on the bed, and Victoria shot him two more times in the head. The prosecution argued Will's death was not in self-defense because he was shot in the back first.

So either he was standing up facing the wall when she began shooting him into the back and then he falls back onto the bed and then she continues shooting him because he's laying on his back or he was facing her. He gets shot. He stands up, runs into the wall, coughs blood onto the wall, and then she continues shooting him from there. But he shot 10 times and there's a lot of dispute of whether he was shot in the back or the chest first.

Personally, Aaron, if somebody has actually attacked you and raped you and then they stood up and then you had a moment to get the gun.

I don't know if it matters if you're shot in the back or the chest first because you are defending yourself, but this is a huge part of this case is people look and say, well, she shot him in the back. She was no longer in harm's way, or this all was her coaxing him to the house so she could seduce him. And then when he gets up to leave, she shoots him. So big point of contention here.

I'm not sure how much it matters where the first bullet holes happened myself. Yeah, I all I can say is if you shoot someone three times, you wouldn't think you'd have to shoot him more. But, you know, if you're really worked up and upset.

You might just do it. The police call, you shoot until they stop. Yeah. Multiple friends testified Victoria Rickman had bruises on her body. Lieutenant Robbie Ray also testified to seeing visible bruising on Victoria on her left forearm and on her left bicep about a year before Will was murdered. Former Deputy Price took the stand and testified he saw bruising on Victoria's arms and around her eyes in May of 2013 when she came to the courthouse to file a restraining order.

Now, this former deputy did admit he was romantically interested in Victoria, but stated they never dated or had intercourse. When asked by Ross if he ever told people they had been intimate, Price laughed and said, I've told people all sorts of things that had nothing to do with reality. So, Price just discredited himself. You know, and I think he's just trying to distance himself from this because a murder happened. And as far as the bruising goes...

We can look at this several ways. I don't dispute that there was bruises on her and they might have been caused by Will in the past because the only other explanation is she's playing a long game and putting bruises on herself to get Will in trouble. But I can't take one side or the other in that argument. I think it probably was a lot of the disputes they had.

whether or not they escalated to the point where she feared for her life, that's a whole other argument. But there was, to me, evidence that there was abuse happening here on both sides. In closing arguments, Prosecutor Ross assured the jury that Victoria planned to kill Will, as indicated by the evidence. The defense asserted there was no evidence. Victoria invited Will over, and therefore Will's death wasn't premeditated or murder.

Palmer again highlighted Detective Benton's alleged bias and claimed Benton was trying to make good TV. There's no getting around it. Having a reality show accompanying a detective on a homicide case or a potential homicide case is...

It's just rife with issues from the get-go. And there's just one thing about saying, oh, well, the people want to see it. Well, no, we need justice. We need these investigations to go properly. And having that crew along is

major problem for this case. I'm sorry, but being totally unbiased in a TV reality show doesn't give views. You have to take a stand and it's for the entertainment value. So this reality TV show was just...

It's ripe for a mistrial because it was just so one-sided. And again, I'm not trying to say that Victoria is a perfect person or she's not guilty. I'm saying that this investigation with this reality TV show hosed this entire case. Well, the trial concluded in the afternoon on the Friday just before Labor Day. The judge sent the jury to begin deliberations despite the holiday weekend.

A lot of people would say, well, there's a holiday weekend there. How's the jury going to feel about having to deliberate? Well, the jury deliberated for less than an hour and they ended up finding Victoria Rickman guilty of all four counts, including malice murder. And five weeks later, the court convened for sentencing. Victoria Rickman read a statement and declared she was a victim of abuse, suffered PTSD and

And her son lost his mother. She asked the judge for leniency in this case, the possibility of parole. Her statement didn't affect the judge and Victoria was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole plus five years for malice murder and possession of a firearm during the commission of a crime. Yeah, of course there's...

going to be an appeal to this because this is not so clear cut. I think if you looked at this case in a vacuum of just the events that happened that night, just Will shows up, she claims that she was attacked and had to defend herself. I think the defense has a pretty good argument of benefit of the doubt. But when you take the totality of it all, it's

definitely looks very suspicious. And I understand why the jury decided the way they did because of all the background here. Yeah, we have a few more statements on that. But let's get to these updates because October 12, 2017, Victoria's legal team filed a motion for a new trial

And in March of 2019, her new counsel amended the motion. A hearing was held on June 14th, 2019, where the court denied the motion.

And then that December, Victoria filed an appeal challenging the denial based on claims of ineffective assistance of counsel at trial. The appeal argued that the defense team had failed to file a motion to suppress evidence obtained from Rickman's two cell phones, citing that the search warrants lacked sufficient particularization. I mean, that just means...

You know, they didn't specifically say that they were looking for these things. Right. Yeah. But the court ruled that Victoria failed to demonstrate the motion would have been successful. Like, how does that affect the outcome of the trial? The appeal also argued that evidence from August 2012, the incident with her ex-boyfriend, William Plunkett, should not have been admitted.

Now, the court agreed with this partially because they said, yeah, that was an error. That was erroneous. It ruled that any error was harmless, though. And, you know, this could be argued, really. I understand why the court ruled the way it did. But I also understand that this was a great thing to appeal on because, I mean, it's kind of prejudicial. They're just I think the court saying this kind of fits with everything else. So it's relevant.

Yeah. And that's kind of why I made my statement of, if you look at this in a vacuum, if you look at this as a closed event from just that night, you can have some questions there. But when you pull in all the other evidence and you pull in an ex-boyfriend who all are very much against her, had very abusive, toxic relationships with her.

That is prejudicial to her. So I get that. But switch the genders here. You know, if a man is very abusive,

to women, and then one of those women is murdered. We want to know about all the history of domestic violence. We want to know the pattern of behavior. And so William Plunkett, he is establishing a pattern of behavior here. And I don't know. That's a hard one to splice because I'm thinking, should that be inadmissible or should that be admissible? I don't know because I want to know the history. Well, the court...

They actually published their opinion and they just cite all of the evidence saying that Victoria Rickman's guilt was strong. They said the forensic evidence showed that Will Carter Jr. was shot in the back while facing the bedroom wall. Cell phone and police records demonstrated that Victoria Rickman filed numerous charges.

prior false reports of sexual assault against Carter. And although Victoria claimed that the reason she shot Carter was that he had raped her, the doctor who performed that rape kit and physical exam found no signs of trauma and no injuries consistent with her description of events.

And then they said in light of this evidence, and in particular, the evidence that Rickman had made false accusations of sexual assault against the victim, Plunkett's testimony that Rickman had threatened to falsely accuse him of rape likely had little, if any effect on the jury's appraisal of Rickman's self-defense claim. In other words, just taking the evidence between her and Carter and

Subsequent sentencing and attorney Amanda Clark.

Palmer stated that Detective Benton had lied about certain aspects of the case in the reality TV show, Inside Homicide. Clark reported that the claims of a tactical reload of the gun, false allegations of rape against multiple men, and Victoria's training to kill were all untrue. She believed that the presence of the TV crew

distracted Detective Benton from properly focusing on the investigation. And here, Aaron, I will absolutely agree with her defense attorney. They took all of Detective Benton's

words as gospel and a tactical reload doesn't make sense. Uh, she did learn how to use a gun because this deputy gave her a gun and said, you know, if I'm going to give you a gun, you should know how to use it. Does that mean she's training to kill? Uh, I don't know. So very prejudicial to, uh, to Victoria, but these things were coming out after the fact. So, uh,

They're saying this is going to be really hard for us to appeal. This is going to be really hard for us to represent our client here because of these shows that are so biased against our client. Yeah, because the detective can say whatever she wants. She's the star of the show, essentially.

But it's all prejudicial, it feels like. And that's what we, I mean, if you get nothing else out of this episode, just understand that we're on the side of, you know, you shouldn't have cameras following around detectives for the creation of a TV show. Because it really matters that these investigations happen without any bias, without any influence. Because like you said, no matter how good this detective is, she's on camera. She needs to perform.

And I could see where she would say or do things that she might not do. Because, you know, if you look at her history, it seems like she's a pretty damn good detective. Yeah, I agree. It's just she made some statements that were wrong. And, you know, maybe if you're investigating something, you're talking out loud, but there's not a TV crew to hear it. So it's like, oh, she might have done a tactical reload with this gun. And then you find out later, oh, I was wrong about that.

Yeah, she can file a report after editing it. She doesn't have, you know, but this is all basically captured by cameras and at the time it's live. So she can't go to the reality show and say, hey, can I sit down and help edit that?

That's not happening. Now, Will's father, William Carter Sr., told 48 Hours that Detective Benton had informed him of his son's death and initially suggested it was a case of self-defense. Will's parents recalled the January 2012 incident involving a hammer where Will had shown up bleeding. Two weeks after that incident, Will arrived at his parents' home with Victoria. His parents told him that Victoria was not allowed at their house,

And according to Will Sr., Victoria became angry and threatened that she had a gun and knew how to use it.

Victoria just knows how to win people over. Well, she, you know, Victoria participated in a prison interview for 48 hours and she claimed there was no real investigation. She said that Will had relapsed, remember, because he was taking medication for his delusions, and he was violent on the night he died. However, since Detective Benton never requested a toxicology report, Victoria's claims could not be substantiated.

Benton later explained that she was unaware of the need to request a toxicology and blood alcohol report because it was her first case with DeKalb County and the procedures differed from her previous department. Although Will's blood was collected, testing was never ordered, and the blood was eventually destroyed.

So they could never go back and do that again. Since the airing of the episode, Victoria's motion for a new trial and her appeal were obviously both denied. She continues to serve her life sentence in prison. But Justin, I want you to explain how you feel that she may have done it.

But then we can also talk about the problems with this case and with the trial. Yeah. I mean, they're having an argument that night. She has a gun. She has apparently motive. She thinks she has a sheriff deputy on her side and she's asked her roommate to leave the house. Well, not to show up anyway. And so this seems very coordinated here. And what,

Will and her are having an argument, yet he shows up and they apparently have sex. And then he's shot to death in her room. I mean, you can look at that and say she coaxed him over because she knows how to manipulate and she wanted him dead because she just wants this guy out of her life or she wants revenge on him for this past abusive relationship. Yeah.

Well, remember the phone call that happens before he goes over there. He's on the phone with a friend. Yeah. She's probably going to kill me tonight. And his friend's like, don't go over there. But Will basically expressed that he really didn't think she would actually do such a thing. He wasn't really afraid that she would kill him. He knew they had their issues. But the thing that I've seen consistently too is that he loved her.

And so if she requested that he come over, I could see him doing that. Even if he was worried that there would be another violent fight or altercation. And you have, you know, this idea that this was all planned and she shot him possibly in the back first and continued shooting him. Seems coordinated and planned.

Especially when you take into account all of the allegations that she recanted and other past relationships where she claims that these people attacked her and were abusive towards her. And hey, there are a lot of abusive men out there. And sometimes every single one of them is a POS. But it seems that everyone in Will's life is like, she was bad news and we are on Will's side.

So you take all that in account, and it looks like this was planned. On the other side, I know I've spoken to many people that have been in

horrible relationships where they are abused and their abuser gets away with it. Their abuser, absolutely. The cops show up and just leave, don't do anything. They try to get a restraining order. They show photos of them lying in a hospital room with a broken arm and beaten to a bloody pulp. And judge is like, eh, I don't see anything. You don't need a restraining order here. And

I've seen how bad the system does work with protecting victims of domestic violence. And when it comes to defending yourself, we've talked about other cases where a woman has been beaten and abused. And the one chance she has, she pulls out a gun and shoots the abusive husband in the back of the head because that's the only way she can get it to end. If she pulls out the gun and he sees her, he can take that gun away and kill her.

So, whether or not he was shot from the front or the back, I'm like, if you're shooting somebody in self-defense and they had just finished attacking you, I don't think it matters where you shot them first. The reload didn't happen in my mind, so...

I, I throw that out. Once again, it was a Glock, a 13 plus one, 13 in the magazine, one in the chamber. Yeah. And as far as a lack of trauma to her, that doesn't exactly mean it didn't happen. It just means that there wasn't any evidence. You know, I could come up and punch somebody as hard as I could. And then they could say, uh, Justin attacked me, but if they don't have a bruise,

Does that mean I didn't hit them? No, it doesn't. Well, we expect bruising. I think a lot of this comes down to what people expect. Yeah. And if they say we typically see, it means that the majority of the time we're going to see these things.

I guess the problem with this case is it really felt like law enforcement to a lot of people who look into this, that Victoria Rickman was crying wolf a lot. And there are times where it sounds like she's even suggesting she'll do it because she's going to get the upper hand over somebody. So when you're manipulating like that,

You're trying to control the situation. Our researcher on this case, Keely, in fact, she wrote up a long thing explaining her thoughts on this case, which we always appreciate. She felt that Victoria was manipulative, controlling, and abusive, and she felt that she may have shot Will. This is allegedly, but of course she's found guilty, so either way. But she said she feels like Victoria no longer had control of Will. She felt that slip away and feared the consequences for her actions. So,

This is what we see typically for men. They lose control of a situation of a person and they use violence. It is very possible that Keeley's right about this. And I feel like you were in the same camp.

It's just really strange. The prosecutor uses that line that she's telling this former deputy price that she feels like Will's going to take action against her with law enforcement, that they're going to come for her. And she doesn't like that. She's like, my only hope is to get him to change his mind. It's obvious she wasn't going to get him to change his mind. So the next step would be she needs to silence him. So.

So really when it comes down to this, I think there are problems with this case. I think having this homicide show covering it the way they did, it's all problematic. It's not a perfect case. And for some people that would mean this should be thrown out. Other people would say, well, there's enough here. They got the right person. Justice is served. But I do think it's interesting with all the problems this case does have that

that they literally threw the book at Victoria Rickman. And I think that's where, I think there's some debate that should have happened about the sentencing. But that's just my take on it. I'm right there with you because it would be horrible to think that somebody is being abused and sexually assaulted and then they do finally defend themselves and it's all twisted around to show that they were planning something.

You know, it's like, oh, I'm being abused by my ex. So I'm going to get a gun to defend myself. They always do this thing and they always get away with it. But at the same time, the fact that her and Will were having an argument over text and then he shows up a couple hours later, why did he go over there? And I'm not trying to blame victims or anything here, but why did he go over there? What was the purpose of him going over there?

I don't really think he would just go over there on his own unless there was some reason. And we never really got that reason besides Will saying, she asked me to come over. So she asked me to come over in the middle of the night when her roommate's not there. It doesn't look good for Victoria because that does make it look planned.

Yeah, it does make it look planned, but I'd definitely like to hear from the audience. Please reply to our posts or email us, message us, let us know what you think happened here. We'd love to hear what you think. Thank you.

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Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our health care system. Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery+. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts.