"He wants me to pull her ponytail" with Elisa Donovan
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Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years.

wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams.

Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A shopping event turns into a train wreck in Jersey. When Teresa invites the ladies to a shopping event, Margaret and Danielle's feud reached new heights. This is Real Housewives of New Jersey, season 10, episode 8, Hair Today, Gone Tomorrow. Elisa Donovan joins me to recap this episode. Let's get into it.

Nice to see you again. You too. Well, I'm so happy to be here. You've had like a busy few weeks. It's been very, yes, it's been very chaotic and I've been more forward facing, like going out to more things and doing more things and being like pretending I'm like a person who puts on clothes and makeup. So it's sort of fun. It's like playing dress up month a little bit.

You know, like going to that dinner, it's like I act like I'm someone who gets dressed up in floral dresses and does that. So where are you now? Up in San Francisco? Yeah. Okay, great. So you had never seen The Housewives? No. This particular episode, oh my goodness. Well, this particular episode is maybe sadly indicative of many episodes throughout the franchise. And sometimes I talk to different...

women from Bravo who are all going through something and they're having a difficult time. One woman is being evicted. Another woman has medical and emotional issues. And so they are going through a hard time and they will talk a lot about press and things going on. And I say,

what my publicist says to me this is one little small world like if everyone's if some people are talking about bravo con it's 8 000 people like that's a very small world but the people in that world not unlike bachelor nation or 90 day fiance nation uh or love island nation or any of these shows they think that that's what's going on everywhere and that everybody knows and

You and I were together at that dinner in L.A. And remember, Lars, it was talking about the woman in their dispute. And I said I kind of interjected to be like Jenny Garth and, you know, at least I don't know what's going on. Jenny and I were like, wait, what, what, what? Right. And I think that people in the Bravo sphere think that everybody else knows. That's sort of it.

normal for whatever you're doing in particularly maybe in any field, but certainly in entertainment, because it's so everybody is so interested in every part of what you're doing. So it feels like it's all encompassing. So I get it that they would certainly think that everybody knows, but I, I honestly have escaped it. I think because I always felt like

These shows are pitting women against each other. And I never wanted to watch that. That's not what my female friendships are like. That's not what my life is about. And so I always felt like I felt frustrated that that's how women get to be on TV, you know, and that's how women get to have attention. And so when I,

So I really didn't know. And then I knew of you because I went, oh, this this woman has she's an entrepreneur. She has all these businesses and she and people seem to have like strong feelings about her, you know, one way or the other. And then but I knew about you because, you know, I would see. But I honestly at first I didn't know that that's.

where you started your sort of public career. I really did. That's a dream. That's the best thing I ever heard. It's like people that don't know Demi Moore came from general hospital. Yeah. Yes. So I felt like, Oh, this is amazing. She's super smart. She's very funny, very savvy. Like I'm on board with all of this. And then, you know, I, so I, it's made me have an appreciation for, um,

the people that are able to turn it into something that is really powerful and meaningful, you know? And I don't know that that's the, it certainly doesn't seem like that's the norm.

Am I wrong? You are the exception or one of the exceptions. I'm the exception. That's the rule, which is why it's challenging that I'm challenging this system, reality television overall, because I'm the one that got out. So while I'm the only one who could actually challenge the system because I'm not disgruntled, I did well, it's challenging for me to challenge the system because I'm the one example of why someone would do it. The game starts to move fast where you don't even know

what train you're on. And to your point about you not watching it because of pitting women against each other, I think many of the women who watch now started watching when I started starring on it. So they've been digesting. It's like taking small doses of medicine that you get a bigger tolerance for it. They've been digesting this content for so many years until now. So they don't know. So this is an interesting episode because

For you to watch. So this episode is Real Housewives of New Jersey, hair today, gone tomorrow. Okay. So this, there's a, we're going to get into this. This is Real Housewives of New Jersey and this is 2020. So this is funny. A lot can change. Three years ago. And Teresa's father was still alive. For those of you that, you know,

need to be caught up. And Teresa's husband, Joe G.U. Dice or G.U. DJ was dealing with this situation with the law where he hadn't yet gone to jail and he wanted to leave the country, but then he'd never be able to come back if he didn't go through the system. So he wasn't in jail in this episode? Because I was like, as I said, I didn't know. And I felt like, well, I've been thrown to the wolves. There is a lot going on right now in this show that I don't.

know if he had gone to jail yet, actually, because it was three years ago. So he must have gone or was going. But whatever the situation was, he was like calling his daughter from one of those where it says this is a collect call from. Oh, so he was in jail and

he had to go through this or he wouldn't be able to come back to the country again to see his daughters. And I think he lives in Italy now anyway, but that would be very trapping to think that like you could never come back to the United States. So if he didn't go through the whole process. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session.

24 hours. BPM 110, 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams.

Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is.

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa, I said the words. Yeah.

That I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between.

This life right here, just finding myself, just this relaxation, this not feeling stressed, this not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly.

Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you've come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Okay, so the first scene is Melissa, her husband Joe, that's a different Joe, that's Joe Gorga and Melissa Gorga, and their two kids go to the ice cream shop. Oh, yes. So Melissa is Teresa's sister-in-law. Joe, the guy in the ice cream store, is Melissa's

is um Teresa's brother and they're estranged and they go back and forth right now they're very estranged so Teresa was on the show first and then later to her surprise Melissa came on which was also jarring and she's married to Joe I like Melissa I think she rides the line and plays the game well um

One time someone from this machine said that Melissa was channeling me at one of her reunions like she's she's she's channeling me, but I didn't see that. And I I like her. I think she keeps her wits about her as a character. I think she plays the game.

And this was a scene that is very much a good example of producers saying, OK, we need to get you to have the conversation about having another kid. So get your family together. And we cleared this ice cream store. And I say that because when people are asking if it's real, it's not only the trashy, crazy scenes that

but the simple scenes can be a little awkward when you sit down, you get your ice cream. So we were thinking, what would you think if we had another kid? Right. So that's that, that's that scene in that conversation. It did. So, so,

She did strike me as the most, I mean, authentic is a weird word to use in this scenario, but she felt like what she, how she was behaving is not far from how she is in life, I would guess. And I don't know if that's accurate or not, but she seemed very kind of, uh,

Yeah. As you said, like, I know what the task at hand is here and I don't need to inflame it or I don't need to, I don't know. There was something that I felt the most like, okay, I can identify with this person, which I probably, you know, don't really have that much in common with, but I felt like I could identify with her and it felt like, um,

her relationship with her kids was, you know, very genuine and funny. And just also the dynamic of she and her husband of the husband being like, wait, what, what are you doing? Like everything you're saying is not what we agreed to. And I feel like that's a very common, you know,

marital relationship. Like I certainly have with my husband. Yeah, I liked, albeit produced, which I liked the conversation. I like him. I've always had a soft spot for him. He's a ham and loves the fame and TV, but they're a team in it, which I like. They've managed to maintain a relationship through this experience. And I like her too. And I liked the kids. I liked the scene.

And then, you know, everybody plays their own role. She's sort of like the Kyle Richards of this show, I think, with the family and doesn't get that dirty, plays the game well. I think Kyle is very much...

the that of Beverly Hills, Kyle Richards. So then we get into Danielle, who just so you know, she has two daughters, two really lovely daughters. Danielle has come on and off the show and she was the subject of the prostitution whore table flip. Right. Okay, wait a second. So she is not the, she's the blonde one, right? Danielle is with the guy on the couch that she's living with. Oh.

but not in a relationship with. She's the other one. Yes. She's the other one. Right. And so this guy, Marty, he seems nice. He seems oddly very similar to the blonde Margaret's husband. I guess they're friends and that's where this is converging. And

I think there's a rub here because Danielle may have said that he physically abused her and her daughter, and now they're together. And we never really get a response from Danielle on that later. Like, that's a big topic to be hanging, to not know what's going on. I was very confused by that because they kept referencing that, that she had said these things.

Terrible... Made terrible accusations against him, but yet they were still living together, which I feel like who... No one does that. Unless maybe you are that... In that abusive of a situation that you literally don't know how to get out, but then...

Why would the producers allow something like that to happen? So I was a little bit confused by that. Well, I didn't even think of that. That's a good question. Why the producers would include someone who had allegedly abused someone or that discussion. That's a pretty dirty topic that needs to be resolved that shouldn't be here. Also that maybe in some cases women have financial issues and want to be part of the show. And that's a good storyline because he has a connection to the other woman. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that

is very desperate that comes into the show. Some of these women, this show and this experience and their own actions have chewed them up and spit them out. And this is the only place that can take them. So there's like, they don't mind being the character that, you know, by any means necessary. So Danielle was the subject of the prostitution whore thing. It was an exhibit at Bravo con to this day, which I find shocking that like,

Someone could say, call you a prostitution whore in a scene, but that Bravo is capitalizing on it and continuing. Wait, what? There's like a booth where she's a prostitution whore? Wait, what? Okay, so years ago on Jersey, and again, I, and frankly, the viewers have made me see this whole medium differently. So I'm trying to keep it current and yeah, just be true to what I honestly think now because I'm seeing these shows differently. Having met a lot of these women,

Personally, from other cities and seeing them very differently and hearing them sound totally sane and like not like the show, which is a heightened experience with stress and alcohol and crazy hours and storylines. And now I'm seeing things differently. So in the beginning of Jersey, I think it was their first season.

Teresa flipped a table and had found out that Danielle had a book out that another ex of hers. But there was a book called Cop Without a Badge and a guy wrote it about Danielle. And the girl, Teresa brought it into the scene to say, you're a prostitution whore. You were you were engaged nine times or 12 times or something. And

They sort of didn't want her to be in the friend group. And so Teresa flipped the table, called her a prostitution whore. So later it was a game on Andy's show, Watch What Happens Live. It was like a rap song prostitution whore. And now it's still a booth at BravoCon. So I questioned those types of things because of what you're saying to make women look bad and trash them. And the woman has daughters that were very young at the time. Yes. So...

Yeah. So you coming into. So concerning. But at the same time, I see the other side, you know, that this gets back to my my feeling that the you know, the entire system is set up for maybe one woman to succeed and women to just have to constantly be trying to get success.

the attention, the job, the money, like there just isn't enough space. Right. And it's created by men. They create this whole scenario to present this sort of catty nature, which is,

I do understand someone being able to use or having to even that matter, use these shows to support their families, to make money, to try to get a career. Like I really get that and I respect that. But then there's this point of the exploitation piece where the women lose, like it spirals out and they lose control over their own lives.

entity like they can't and and then like how do you unravel that and it's that weird line of well we're just being a character for this show but then your daughter's watching going oh is that what I am supposed to do then are those my options you know it's a very strange like this is the thing with these sorts of reality shows where it does you go how do

Where's the line? You know, and I would think that's the producer's job is to find that line, but not exploit it. Cross it. Right. Well, that's what I'm saying. I believe it should be exploration, not exploitation. And there is a line, but the exploitation is so easy to do. It's a low hanging fruit. So I think that's exactly where I've come to be. And you as someone who's not been part of it.

You're seeing it differently. So, yeah, each person plays a part. The kids don't get paid. And you can sometimes see in scenes the kids resenting their parents and getting in little jabs. The kids don't get paid.

The kids don't get paid and some of them to this day still have like trauma from things that have been said about them as kids. Of course. Years ago. How is that? So this is, this is like the unionizing thing also, right? Or you should, this is what, this is what I'm talking about and why I'm right and why some people want to get in the weeds and diehard fans don't want me to ruin and take away their junk food. But this is why I'm, I'm right. Like,

Parents get to say because they want the fame or they're desperate or they used to be married to a rich man or they used to have a career. They're in their 40s, 50s. This is going to give them some opportunity they would have never had. They're dragging their kids in because the producers will not cast them unless the whole family is part of it. But the whole family hasn't really signed contracts about this, except the parents are signing on the kids. Yeah. I mean, that is so different from scripted television. Like you can't even...

If I want to put I have a film in development that I wrote that I'm directing and there's a one scene I want my daughter to be in. It's literally like she's an extra, but walking down this hallway and it's a pivotal thing, but she doesn't have to say anything. My producer is like, well,

That's only if we're going to shoot it in the summer because we have to pay her. You can't take her out of school. If we take her out of school, you have to get a teacher on set that costs more money. This is a small film. It just goes on and on and on for her to be in one scene walking down a hallway and not saying anything. Not only that, but you could say you could say as the mother, my daughter has an eating disorder and I'm worried about her and for the rest of her life.

the audience always remembers that your daughter has an eating disorder and she's going to be 22 and feeling embarrassed or that your daughter pooped her pants when she was a baby or your daughter went to fat camp and it lives on. And I'm right. So that is what the thing is. And it's not only about Bravo. It's about reality TV because it's a group of desperate people. So desperate people do desperate things and their kids are victims. Yeah. Yeah.

So, and I never had my daughter on reality TV except for a tiny baby, but she, you know, she couldn't say anything and do anything. And I made that choice. So, okay. So Margaret seems like she has a real bullseye on Danielle. And to your point of saying one person plays a certain role, or you said something recently about like,

women are trying to get to that prime spot of being in good light. You're always, someone's always winning and someone's always losing. So you either have a target on your back or you're targeting someone else. That's, it's Game of Thrones or Hunger Games. So Margaret's got a target on Danielle's back and this is kind of

just what this episode is about. Teresa befriends Danielle. Often on these shows, you have to... If you're in a hot seat yourself, you got to grab onto somebody. It may not be somebody in your normal life you'd be friends with. Right. I was curious about that because that scene where they're on the couch and they're... When they first... She goes over to Margaret's house. I was like, wait a second. Are these people friends or are they not? I couldn't tell if it was... If this was a new...

or I was... I couldn't tell what was going on. It's alliances. In this experience, you have to align because so many people will talk badly about you that the audience will hear the majority and just go with that direction. And so...

you need allies. And so I'm sure, and it becomes real where you think someone's your friend because they're your current ally and you like start to tell the people you're in a relationship. But no, I really think they're amazing now and I want to bring them on vacation. Or for me, it was like, I want to have Ramona come out with us on New Year's Eve. And like, you really believe everything because it's like this manufactured world where you have to, you know, you're trapped in a space shuttle with a bunch of people you don't know. These are your best friends now. You got to survive. So, you know, it's survivor. Yeah.

BPM 110, 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not.

What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is.

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words. Yeah.

That I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Cheaters and Backstabbers. I'm Shadi Diaz. And I'm Kate Robards. And we are New York City stand-up comedians and best friends. And we love a good cheating and backstabbing story.

So this is a series where our guests reveal their most shocking cheating stories. Join us as we learn how to avoid getting our hearts broken or our back slashed. Listen to Cheaters and Backstabbers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. So Teresa has four girls and Teresa is an original housewife. And

I like her kids. Her kids have been through the whole machine, like almost like reality, almost like housewife Kardashians. Like they've been kind of almost born into this. Their dad is in jail. Their mom went to jail. They're going to try the prom dresses like they really have just signed on for a lifetime of housewives fame. The kids, too, in this particular scenario, Teresa's entire house has been

been raised on reality television. She also was in jail. I'm like trying to get caught up. Teresa was in jail too, because her husband got in trouble for tax evasion, but she was on many of the documents. So she had to do a year. Yeah. She did a year, left the kids, came home. Then he did a year. Ah, okay. Okay.

Like that's really hard. Oh, for sure. I mean, I mean, though those kids are nothing if not resilient. I hope they I mean, it's just it's just it was that scene was really interesting to me in terms of the regular things that people go through. Oh, your child's still going to the prom. She's still like choose a dress that works for her.

And then at the same time, we have to talk to dad on the phone from prison who then is trying to like, it sounded like pit his daughter against his wife. And, you know, I'm sure marriages are complicated. So, and I could only imagine what that would feel like being so, uh, uh,

Just having that whole situation. But it seemed like she, I loved that. She just sort of took her. She was like, this is a problem with the two of you and leave me out of it. Like, I don't need the daughter. That was like, I don't need to know the details. Like now this is too much. You two have your issue, but I'm your child. Still. This is not about. I agree. And I also, the one thing I've always liked about Joe G you dice as it pertains to reality television is.

Maybe the only thing he really doesn't give a fuck and he's really being who he actually is. He's one of the few people that are not self-produced. He will he he's an he's a he can't stand his wife. You can tell they've been in sort of what almost feels like an arranged Italian marriage for years.

He loves his daughters and he just really doesn't give a shit. He'll say on camera what he really feels. So I do. I mean, I like him. Right. So Jen Aiden, she's newer. She's been I mean, not newer, newer to me, newer in the franchise. She's the one whose mother doesn't accept that her brother is gay. Oh, yes. Yes. OK.

So I thought that was an important topic. I thought it was great that she pushed that forward into the show and kind of made a choice to make her mother look a bit uncomfortable for the sake of this audience, for the sake of moving this conversation forward and showing the difference in the generation with her daughter. Yes. And ironically, that was the least...

That was more, as you say, exploration as opposed to exploitation because that didn't turn into some explosive thing where the mom is slurring. You could just see her face as a mother, all of the feelings that she's having about it, and then perhaps realizing these are not okay, but it's how I feel. And she just sort of exited. Good point. You're right. Yeah.

I feel like that was really, that was a great moment. And for the daughter, you know, the daughter, the granddaughter to be a part of that and sort of the touch point of all the generations, I thought it was great. You're right. That's an exploration, but still as riveting. And the same thing for the daughter in the dressing room, if I think about it, because that's exploration. That's a dynamic. It's parents that are divorced or fighting or cheating or something. Leave me out of it. And we heard the child's voice. And I think that's,

Those, that's a good example because people often think I want to take their candy away. It's just, you want it to be done well and done creatively.

Right, exactly. It's totally possible because people are inherently interesting and relationships are interesting. And, you know, the sort of it doesn't always have to be heightened to be heightened. Like it just is. So, yeah. And now we get this guy, Marty, who's on the show being accused of abuse. I wonder how that legally goes on. And I wonder why men who wouldn't be paid would participate in something that could possibly happen.

paint them in that light. I don't see an upside. We're not promoting his... He's not paid either? No. In many cases, in New York, the kids and the husbands are never paid. Some of the family members have been paid in Jersey because it's more of a family show, but I'm positive that guy's not paid because he's just a... He's not like a permanent fixture on the show. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you.

Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110, 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people.

There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling, as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is.

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa, I said the words. Yeah.

That I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Cheaters and Backstabbers. I'm Shadi Diaz. And I'm Kate Robards. And we are New York City stand-up comedians and best friends. And we love a good cheating and backstabbing story. Oops.

So this is a series where our guests reveal their most shocking cheating stories. Join us as we learn how to avoid getting our hearts broken or our backs slashed. Listen to Cheaters and Backstabbers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. So now we get into where the line is crossed. So there's another show that was a big scandal called, that had a scandal called Scandival, where Rachel, she was at the dinner you and I were at.

She had short hair. I don't think you were sitting there. Okay. Yeah. Like almost like your hair, but a little shorter. Yeah. So she was on a show and in my opinion, and a lot of people's opinions and a therapist's opinion, she was emotionally abused at a reunion for cheat for having an affair with someone who was in a relationship. And it felt like across the line. And there was a,

tape of her that was distributed. And it's really been described as like inappropriate, if not illegal, like to distribute video of somebody throughout a cast. I mean, you don't think of those things, but like some things are illegal, recording people within certain states or... Who released it? Who gave it to everyone? The guy who recorded it. He recorded it FaceTime. So...

Now we're in a situation...

And these feel like the years when the show started to get really toxic, I think, although it kind of always has. It's just evolved. So Danielle, evidently, it appears they're talking about a video, a sex video of her. And they're flashing to all the different cast members and their husbands talking about Danielle's porn or a tape. So I don't know how this is all legal and we're going to get into it. But Danielle's ex said,

Who wrote a book about her and it wouldn't have been successful at all if Bravo hadn't brought it into the show and promotes it at Bravo Con and gave this guy a booth. So there's a video that was distributed by Hustler that apparently wasn't approved by Danielle. So I don't understand the legality. That doesn't sound like it makes a lot of sense.

But all the people on the cast here are talking about her vagina and saying that it looked like it had claws and teeth. So this is a good example. She's not aware that this conversation is going through this show. And now they're all at this shoe store talking about comparing her vagina to sushi and like

That's where the line is completely crossed for me. 100%. I could not. I went, this is...

way beyond my comprehension now. And I felt like this is again, one of those things where when you could get swept up in the situation and producers telling you to do things or your emotions getting involved and day drinking, which, you know, we've all been guilty of and all it's like the perfect storm. And the thing is, is that then perhaps many of those things, uh,

both of them or Danielle would want to take back, right? Or not make public, but you can't. And then that becomes like the meat of the whole show. And it just, I felt, I felt badly for all of them. I just felt like this is spiraling out of control and the people that are benefiting from it are not on the screen right now. That's how I felt. By the way,

It's exactly, I've been in these scenes and it's escalating and you're kind of aware that you're making good television. You're also so angry and frustrated and everything gets accentuated. The alcohol, the dehydration, literally your nervous system, you are literally activated. It's just a different feeling. And it's this weird hybrid purgatory between real and not real. And it's,

Whoever produced that episode should be ashamed of themselves because there's a line between entertainment and exploitation and this crossed it. Like for a show and for Bravo to distribute

people talking about someone's vagina, having teeth, claws and teeth. That woman has daughters. There has to be a responsibility. There has to be a responsibility. And I stand by what I've said. It's completely vile. Now, I may not know Danielle. I may not like Danielle. I may not approve of her choices. Mandy Cohen was an executive producer of this show. It's something that really was disgusting and crossed the line. And it's a network that's supposed to be

a network whose entire audience is women. So that's where you have a responsibility and it was a disgusting situation. That, you could talk about that someone had a video. You could talk about you don't agree with someone's relationship. You could talk about not thinking so. But to like talk about that everybody on a show is comparing your vagina to sushi and...

what it looked like and that a person is no, that knows that everybody has watched a video of them. That's something that would happen on a schoolyard. I was just going to say that that is like a teenage, uh,

eighth grade scenario that it's, it's like the lowest common denominator. And it's that piling on thing. One person starts it and then a couple of people, and then everybody's involved. And then the next thing, you know, you're all saying these horrible things. I mean, this is literally like kindergarten or eighth. It's also like college though. A girl sleeps with half the football team and she's bullied about it. And it's brought out and like,

they become wrong because of the way that she's ostracized and treated. I so so I was again, I was in the machine back then. And now going back and like watching it, I thought this is also gross. And this is where the line gets crossed with the viewer to where the viewer doesn't feel good. The viewer feels gross for even watching. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think, you know, there's love to hate.

And there's love to love. But when you hate to hate and you feel disgusting, like you've just eaten something really that's vile junk food that made you feel worse than when you started. That's when it's serious. So that was that conversation. And then you're into name calling trout mouth and back and forth. And like where? Yes, it was. It was just way, way, way too much for me. I mean,

and i felt like this is exactly why i never watched these shows because i i don't i don't want my daughter thinking that's the way women behave with each other i that's not the way my relationships are and not that you have to watch things that completely reflect your own life and reality but

from a just from a moral standpoint i felt like can't we is it is this really entertainment or what what is this you know whereas the other pieces of it as i said i i can understand why it's compelling and how it can be funny and and interesting but

But there is a line and that it was without a doubt crossed in that scene, in my opinion. Right. Because there's no there's no goal for any kind of resolution. It's literally just to make everyone to make somebody look disgusting. And this is what I really have learned since meeting all these women. Many people love a character, hate a character. The next week it goes upside down.

But it's really not the character. It's not the talent's fault. Like what Margaret's job is to dig up dirt on other people, throw it into the mix, make it stick and start over. It's, you know, Danielle's job is to go in there and play that trashy part because this week it's her turn to get beaten up. And,

Melissa tries to ride the line, like I said, of being the sensible one, but she's still standing there. Like she's trying to do enough. Yeah. Melissa is a character that's always trying to do what she needs to do to get by in the class. So she's like, this is unacceptable. But yeah, she's still there. If it were really unacceptable, you'd walk out and leave. Like she's still sort of there. Yeah.

And Jennifer is laughing at the sushi joke. So everybody's like got to play their part or they won't be able to survive on this show. If you just walk out and leave because in your real life, you would never tolerate this. You're not going to be on the show. So it's not the talent. It's not the talent's fault. It's Andy Cohen's fault. It's the producers. It's Bravo's fault for going for the low hanging fruit and taking his pass. But that's what sells these days. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, that makes me sad. Because again, there is entertainment and then there is just...

And what really the thing that really gets me is that these women who are on the shows that, you know, I'm sure there's a great high that you feel when you're the one who is righteous in the situation and you're the one that everybody that the fans are loving, that feels great. And that's a false sense of power.

of anything because then you're just going to crash again. And then thinking that that's how we get that, like, that's how we succeed in life. It's just, it's a little bit, it's disturbing to me. It's a great point. You're very intuitive because you get back in the car after that scene, like the producer that would be like, Oh my God, that was,

insane and amazing. And they always act as if like, they wouldn't have wanted that. Like, wow, that was a little crazy, you know, like, and then you feel crazy because you feel like you just want their approval to tell you that it went well and that you're doing a good job and you always want, and it's a voracious, you never, it's a bottomless pit. You never really get what they really think. And they, after seeing like that, they might be like,

Yeah, well, no. The next scene, you'll be able to clean it up. So you like then get a do over. And then the next scene you're trying to like, then they'll make you look crazy when you're like, I never want to be in a room with Margaret again. Like, hey, and then they're like, well, we're all doing the cast trip and the whole cast has to go. That's where it is an actual workplace. But you're not you haven't signed a contract and you don't get to complain to H.R. because it isn't a legal workplace.

So then the producer, the next week they're going to Atlantic City or wherever they're going. You don't want to go because in your real life, would you ever be in a room with these people as long as you live? But you are contracted to go to Atlantic City. So they're going to make you go because they want to force either some fake resolution and escalation. And then you don't want to go to the reunion. Like it's it's a circular reference that that does not is not based in any reality because those two people would never speak to each other for the rest of their lives after a scene like that. Right, right.

Yeah, unless there was some massive reckoning and, you know, apology and understanding. Like, yes, it would take moving mountains for those people to be spending time together again, let alone like on a fun trip. Right. But if you don't want to do that, you could lose your job. Like Lisa Vanderpump had a much lighter altercation with Kyle that lives on to this day.

And the other women. And she didn't want to film most of the season. So she didn't film the rest of a season. And then Bravo put in a new law for housewives that

any episode that you aren't in, you won't get paid for. Meaning if you in your real life would never want to shoot with these people because you just wouldn't travel with them, then you won't get paid. So you have to go on a trip with them. You have to go somewhere. So it's the upside down. You've been put in this situation where your vagina has been compared to sushi and has teeth on it. But now you have to go legally to a trip with someone legally.

who said that to you. Right. And I get how people would say, well, you signed up for that and that's what you, you know, you're getting paid and you knew when you signed up. I mean, that's,

Only partly true. I think that is very misleading. I don't think anybody would sign up to be humiliated in that extreme of a fashion. I think that you sign up and say, okay, I've never, I did, I've done two reality things, a cooking show and a thing called Switched where you switched lives a million years ago for ABC.

I understood in doing those, it's going to be me, but they were not exploitative shows. They were not, you know, I had to understand that whatever I did was going to be put on TV and I didn't have any control over that. But I certainly didn't sign up if I had gotten there and then they were, you know, trying to really humiliate me. I'd be like, well, wait a second. That's not what the agreement is. But how do you put that like that? There's no language to specifically sign.

Say like, what is humiliation? I don't know. Maybe actually, as I come up with language for this, I think it's a good idea. Like calling someone a prostitution whore, doing a song, airing it, having a game show on Andy's show as if it's entertainment and having a booth at Bravo that says prostitution whore. That's crossing the line. Like you're saying whore prostitution whore, like where you're

attacking someone's character in one of those categories. You could be like, you're a manipulative bitch. Okay, we'll keep it. You are a drug addict, prostitution whore is where the line is. You know what I mean? Like I think there is where things are bridging illegal and talking about illegal activity, things like that, because they should be vetting people

And maybe don't want to have someone on that has a history with the law, but they do want to have that on because that's what they know will sell. So there's really no line in who they'll put on the show. It's just like it's a circular reference. It's very, very interesting when you say that. It's very interesting when you say that, because we're both talking about how people can create in a more

constructive way. Yes. And still be edgy and still be funny and not completely PC, but you could still do all of those things. But there is, and it's just a sign, I think, of culturally where we are headed, sadly, or where we are. And so because it's just reflective of what

People are now willing to tolerate or need more to be entertained or to make someone feel bad. Like it's a it's a it's a pretty kind of scary trajectory, but it's certainly right. That's what I am saying. Years ago, there was a scene where Kelly Ben Simone said to me.

This is me. This is you. Meaning I'm up here. You're down here. And people it was one of the most iconic scenes ever. But OK, that's a dynamic that felt like a school that felt like a popular girl saying it to the not popular girl. We can relate to that. We can relate to Joe's daughter saying, leave me out of this. We can relate to Jennifer Aida. Right. We can relate to someone saying to someone else, I'm up here. You're not here.

We can't relate to someone assigning teeth and a whole group watching a sex video and Bravo saying it's OK that everybody watched Danielle's sex tape. How could the talent feel protected? And even furthermore, this is what really goes on. Many of these women came in a little scared.

a little beaten up. And they were these characters and they participated and they did it. But then after they go through this and once you've been called a prostitution whore and your vagina being discussed in a certain way or drugs or you cannot get a job anywhere else. So this is the only place you can beg to go back and make money. And it becomes desperation for these people. And these are the people that the reality reckoning is about. Not the Bethany Frankels, not the Kyle and the Erica Janes. It's the people that have been chewed up and spit out by the system.

I really, I, I really commend you for doing this. I truly do. I think it's really brave and people can say whatever they want, but the, the, in terms of, oh, it's easy to do that from where you're sitting. Yeah. But that's why you can do it. That's the point, you know, and that you, that is exactly part of the point. And yeah,

It's really hard to it's, you know, this is the other thing that we lose often is the nuance of these conversations. Right. You're talking about the nuance of things. You're not saying these things should not exist at all. And exactly. You know, you're going there are levels and there are details to this that can be.

just more constructive. So it is entertainment. That's what it's supposed to be, right? I mean, isn't it? Right. Entertainment with an edge. And as we are talking about the strike, it's not first and foremost shouldn't be that kids...

should be paid for being exploited, but it would definitely make it feel a little better. It should be that the exploitation shouldn't be so that a kid the rest of their life is going to be suffering. And I think that the, I already see a change. I've seen a change in Watch What Happens Live. They've said that there's a change in the alcohol and the mental health. There was a watered down version of Bravo Con this year. And that's good because it means I've made, they may not, they won't admit that it's because of me, but it means we've made a difference. And in having this show,

Which truthfully, if I knew that there was going to be a reckoning, I probably wouldn't have launched the show. But even in deciding to do it, I never wanted to bash anybody. And I wanted to use the show as a vehicle to talk to people that are not on it about issues. Yeah. And that to me is very compelling and really important and doesn't have to be, you know, that's that I look, I am a firm believer in.

bringing people together rather than trying to create division. And I think we have enough of that already in this country. I will not talk about politics, but it really like that's that's

That's the problem. And that might be interesting for a narrative story that has a beginning, middle and end. But life is far more complex than that. And when we create these these massive, you know, where everything is about someone being right and someone being wrong. And there's no there's no place for actually that.

connecting to people and having a... You're saying we're at the most divisive time. Like people are closet voting because if they say they're voting for X person, the other person doesn't say, let's discuss why. The other person says you're a fucking moron and you're disgusting and you're a Karen and you're a racist. They don't say let's have a discussion. Yeah, exactly. And this show can have

debates, disputes about money, about divorce, about ugly topics. But when it crosses the line and when it's designed to ruin someone's life, that's what I'm talking about. And again, and I say it all the time because I don't normally say like, I'm right. That's a really... But I am on this topic. I'm right. I'm right. It's just right and wrong. Yeah. So...

Wow. Well, this was an interesting conversation. Wow. You're very insightful. I didn't know that it was going to kind of go in this direction. I appreciate the conversation. I love it.

Yeah, it was entertaining. We had a good time. Awesome. All right. Well, I'd love to have you back more. So sorry if I'll make you watch these episodes. Yeah, I need a little break before watching more, but I will. It'll be six months. All right. I can't wait to get together with you. I loved sitting at dinner with you. I thought you were amazing. I loved it. I was so happy to be invited. It was a great experience.

Pleasant surprise all around. I loved it. I loved it. So thank you. Yeah, it was a nice group. Amazing. Awesome. Well, thank you for being here and for watching and for talking about it. I appreciate it so much. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing.

They're just dreams.

Sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Angie Martinez, and on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life. I had the best dad, and I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.