breaking up with social media ft. Adele Walton
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For more, follow Repack Recycling on Instagram and TikTok. And always remember the golden rule, clean, dry and loose. Together we can make sure our waste ends up in the right place. Hi guys, so glad I can get a few things off my chest today because I feel like I've been holding it a lot. This morning I was actually shaking from anger. I was trying to journal and my hand was vibrating. So I'm glad that I can let this out of my system a little bit. Now this podcast episode will be an interview with Adele Walton, the author of Longing Off. And she

deep dives and talks about

about online harms and how it has affected her personally and how it affects everybody else. But I urge you to read her book. And that's basically what the whole interview is about, is about the book that she wrote and all the evidence-based research that she did put into online harms. And I've been harping on about it for so long, but I do think at the moment it is just the root of all our issues. But I'm not going to be talking about that right now. I just want to have a little chat. So I wrote down a few notes that I wanted to speak on before I get into more of a depressing

subject matter so I am on holidays at the moment I'm in Spain now this is a great opportunity for me because not only do I get this is a little treat for me so I get a week of being in the sun

Daddy is a state of mind. So this job has afforded me. I don't have to take annual leave or anything like that, but I can just book a holiday. Now, the thing is, Jason has to book time off. But for me, I'm like, oh, that's handy. I get a bit of childcare. Like that's how little childcare I get. I'm like, oh, I get a bit of childcare now on my holidays so I can record a podcast. Do you know? But I wouldn't change it for the world, guys. I love it. I love this job. But I wrote down in my notes the first line that I have written down. I also had two coffees this morning, if you couldn't tell.

I also had a little FaceTime with my sister and we had a bit of a buzz. Like the family drama at the moment is just piping, piping hot. So I had a great time. Anyway, the first line that I had written down on my podcast notes was greasy hog in brackets ham. So basically being in Spain, I'm eating a lot of ham. Love a bit of ham. And last week I was talking about sort of like the...

relationship with my body at the moment because I'm not fitting into a lot of the clothes I own and I'm a big re-wearer of outfits I love an outfit repeat repetition what? I love to repeat an outfit was that even English? repetition what? repetition anyway

I love re-wearing the same clothes. I feel comfortable. I know that it looks good. Whatever. But for this holiday... First of all, I wasn't fitting into a lot of the clothes that I own at home. So I was like, I'll do a little clothes swap with my sister. Now, I forgot...

I forgot the fact that I'm also the older sister. So I obviously have more clothes than she does. So it was more like a benefiting her situation. But that's fine. I don't mind. So she got a lot of my clothes. I got like a t-shirt or two from her. Anyway, still helpful nonetheless. Thank you, Ellie. Then when I got here, now I did pack, I got loads of stuff from Vinted. It was absolutely delizioso, fabulous, right? In the middle of the holiday, I wore this like mesh...

I have it on my Instagram. It's sort of like a mesh. It's tight at the top and flowy at the bottom, but it is quite see-through. Like you can't see your underwear through it. But I kind of love that vibe at the moment. Like barely there sort of clothes, do you know? Feels stunning. Now, the first day I wore it, I was a little bit like, oh, it feels a little bit uncomfortable. And it's not that it doesn't fit me because it's quite stretchy and adjustable anyway, but it has these sort of like ties at the back. So it's a very thin sort of elastic-y tie and it's in three lines on your back. And...

The way I was, I kept saying, now Jason is real like, would you stop talking bad about yourself? Because I'm literally like, oh my God, I'm a greasy hog. I'm a greasy, I don't know. Is that even offensive to say hog? It's something my sister Saoirse says. She's like, I look like a hog. And I just think it's really funny because it's sort of on a matopeic.

And especially in the heat, like you're sweaty, you feel like you feel greasy. If you're a little bit burnt on top of that, it's just like hog city because you're red as a beetroot and sweating everywhere. And I also don't shave. So I am hairy on top of that. And you don't realize how hairy you are until like you have little clothes on. And then you're thinking, oh, I actually am really hairy. Anyway, so I was wearing this sort of like mesh pink dress and I had the three elastic ties at the back. And I was like, Jason, I look like he goes, please don't say you look like a...

a ham wrapped in twine. And I was like, how did you know I was going to say that? You know, like a honey glazed ham. I look like a honey glazed ham wrapped in twine. And I was like, no, I can't do this. Girls, it went as bad as I went into a shop to buy a new outfit and I got changed. I don't think I've ever done that unless I've like shit my pants. Do you know what I mean? Or like period it all over myself. But anyway, I had a little bit of a wardrobe malfunction. So I had to change into this.

in the fitting room. But then anyway, I was feeling gorgeous. I got sort of like a real flowy sort of play suit and I felt stunning then because I was like in loose clothing. I felt so much more comfortable in my skin. I think it's more getting used to the fact that I have a different silhouette now and I need to be, I do need to be like dressing a little bit more to suit my comfortability levels rather than trying to slay all the time.

I need to stop trying to slay. Anyway, so the other wardrobe malfunction was I've been slathering myself in sunscreen, like slick as anything. Literally, I could fit through a keyhole and that's slippery. I could slip, I could slide across the ground, slip and slide vibes. So I've been slathering myself in SPF, same with B, obviously, the whole lot of us

um but then anyway I forgot a little bit because my hair is thinning it's more exposed like I don't really have a hair division like it's not really straight that straight it's always changing every day because it's so frizzy so I never thought that I'd have to put SPF on the old feckin what you call that parting on your hair on your scalp so of course my scalp is burnt

Since this morning, I woke up and it was like, if anyone has kids or has been close to a child, do you know cradle cap? Familiar? The cheesy, no, it doesn't smell like cheese, but it's like that. The cradle cap on the scalp, it's peeling away. So as you can imagine, I feel sexy. Oh my God. So there was a few malfunctions, but then I got myself an app. I walked along this sort of like one of those souvenir shops.

The fella in there had cowboy hats. I was like, this is fucking serious. So I got myself a cowboy hat. No problemo. Perfect. Covering the old scalp. And then I got myself a little SPF stick. But I did get a comment from two people saying... Little tip here, guys. Now, I was using the stick on my scalp. Apparently, what's even better is...

you can get an SPF powder I thought it was a typo when I first got the comment so I was like surely not there's not an SPF powder that doesn't make sense because I keep seeing these things online especially Juliana Sheil now I'm literally friends with Juliana but like when I see her online I'm like that that's she's scary she's scaring me she literally bullied me into covering myself in SPF she's doing a great job but anyway as I was saying so I sorry someone texted then I

again about this SPF powder you can get I think it's called Hawaiian Tropic SPF powder so I need to be on the I haven't seen this before so that's why I was a bit sceptical about the powder situation the consistency but I haven't seen these TikToks of people see I shouldn't be listening to TikToks I keep seeing these being like these are not these sorts of SPFs are not effective say for example like I saw TikTok saying that the sprays

You know, like an aerosol can SPF spray. Again, don't take this as gospel for me. Do your own research.

I need to look into this more. But just to be safe, I've just stuck to the creams now. But apparently the stick now is not even as effective. I just thought that these brands had to stay within regulation. You know, you just trust them. I shouldn't be trusting brands, though. I can't trust anybody these days. So I knew and you do need to do my own research. But someone did text me again saying the stick is not as effective as like using a cream or something. But like, how do you put sunscreen in your hair?

Like, I don't get that. So the stick just made more sense. But anyway, now I've just been covering my scalp. I got one of those hair bands that like covers your whole head. For some reason, I'm like dreading going back to Ireland. Do you know what I mean? It's just so depressing. Everything is so depressing at the moment. It sure is. It's fucking shite. But anyway, why this is relevant for the subject matter of this podcast is the skewing...

and algorithms. So the reason why, obviously I'm in an echo chamber, so I don't even realise the depth of what other people who have completely polar opposite political opinions to me. I don't even understand how different their algorithm is to me. I have a faint idea because I know one person in particular who's in my life who would be of that opinion and

And it is obviously like very frustrating and also at times quite disturbing. And just to the actual like the shyness that you see, it just doesn't make it. It's like it's nonsensical to me. But I would have been of the opinion like I always I'm constantly changing my mind about things. The more information I learn, obviously, or the more information that I digest myself.

The more research that I do on things, obviously my psyche is constantly interchanging, which is a positive thing. And I would urge you all to do the same. Obviously, in certain aspects, I'm a bit stubborn. But at the moment, I think the more time I spend offline, the more open minded I become and less binary I am in my thinking because of what happens with this thing called the unconscious bias. So basically, an unconscious bias is

An unconscious bias, now this is what I've Googled just so that I don't get it wrong, but it refers to the prejudices or stereotypes that individuals hold about certain groups or people without being aware of them. And then my understanding of this and how I would describe it to other people, this unconscious bias constantly drives you, try, reaffirm those biases that you have against people, i.e. the algorithm. So if you see something that confirms the unconscious biases that you have,

Say if you hate like people who eat pineapple on pizza and you get really angry about people who eat pineapple on pizza, you'll be engaging first of all by watching a full video. If something evokes an emotion in you, you're more likely to watch the full video or interact with it. I comment something hateful or whatever, being like, you're such an idiot that you like pineapple on pizza. There's something seriously wrong with you. I'm just giving a very frivolous example because I don't want to offend anyone. Okay.

But obviously there's more extreme ends of this where it's like you're actually hating on a marginalized group of people, a vulnerable group of people. So then the algorithm is going to constantly feed you information that demonizes this group of people. And that's kind of what's been exacerbated online at the moment. And this can happen to both sides of political opinions. But the more time you spend offline, I feel like the more time

the more likely this isn't going to happen to you, especially if you're reading like non-fiction, if you're reading fiction books that constantly puts you in other people's shoes and you can see people from different perspectives and understand where they're coming from. The book I just finished reading on holidays, which is really like current, surprisingly, even though I think it came out over 10 years ago, maybe, or maybe just about 10 years ago. It was set around the time anyway, during Donald Trump's first presidential campaign in

So the first time he was president, not like obviously the most recent as in right now, but it's about basically two people who have completely polar opposite political opinions, but they're both very well educated. It poses the question as to whether people with polar opposite political opinions, can they get along or can they find middle ground? And I would have been of the opinion beforehand, before even, I think just reading this book,

I was of the opinion of there's no way I would allow someone like that into my life at all. Like, what's the fucking point of it? Because it's a question of people's safety and their value within the world. Like, I don't, I can't be friends with someone or have a close relationship with someone who has completely different values to me.

And this book kind of changed my mind a little bit about it because you can't come to a resolution by further division and further polarizing people. And now the extreme end of this sort of thing with algorithms and online, we first saw the sort of surge in

isolating groups of people through extremist radicalized posts online for example like incel culture what happens is men will be isolated and they'll feel not a part of they'll feel rejected so they'll try find a community online and unfortunately what happens is they get sucked into this whole like

We hate women and women are to blame for our problems and that sort of thing because they're already feeling this sense of rejection for women. So they want to put this anger and feelings of rejection somewhere else and make it more useful. But it is damaging towards their view of women and can translate into then real life actions against women. Then we sort of saw during lockdown,

where people will say be anxious about the new vaccine and then they'll get sucked into this algorithm where it's like you cannot trust academics you cannot trust research you can't trust the government you can't trust anything you have to question absolutely everything now that's a really really extreme end of it I don't mean anyone who was like nervous about the vaccine is within that

group but that was kind of the vulnerability that they preyed on as in the algorithm preyed on and it would suck people into that and to the extreme end of it like people have been completely isolated from their families when you have a real life conversations with people and you just say what makes you think this is true I think that's more valuable and more constructive than arguing with people in common sections do you know what I mean so we definitely do have to have these conversations in real life with actual people that we know because

I do think you'd be surprised about how many people genuinely think that a marginalized or vulnerable group of people is trying to, in quotations, take over. Anyway, this is taking a really dark path. The most harmful part of social media algorithms, what's online, is that it is being skewed on purpose online.

to change people's thought processes, to change people's opinions on things, and also to change people's political viewpoints. So, and this is not just a conspiracy against like the broligarchy and people online because I'm like a woke leftist stupid bitch, right? This is genuinely what is happening and the EU has...

Well, Elon Musk anyway was under investigation by the EU for skewing algorithms on X to benefit one political view. There's legislation in place where if there's an upcoming election, there has to be equal, basically airtime for both political viewpoints. This is proven on radio, like anything that's commissioned by...

public funding as well has to have an unbiased opinion, has to have equal airtime for both sides of each argument. But the EU has asked X for internal documents about algorithms as it steps up investigation. So Musk's company has been accused of manipulating systems to give far-right posts and politicians greater visibility. This is an actual thing that has been going on. This has been going on since January. And you can look this all up in The Guardian. That's my favorite source of

news at the moment. It is free as well but you can make donations as it's an independent journalist. The reason why they're doing this is because it makes more money. It keeps people shocked. It keeps people addicted to their phones. It keeps people in a place of...

submission because they're angry at the wrong people and it's just like a constant fucking it's like really depressing but anyway Adele goes into more detail about this in her book we all need to delete TikTok and Instagram like that's what influencers shouldn't be posting about their political opinion I know personally I would love to know who voted for Trump and who didn't I wish they just had that in their bio so I'd know who not to give

a follow to like that's all I care about like that tells me everything I need to know about your political opinion do you know what I mean but I'm not getting my news from them like to be honest oh I don't care about what you think about Iran and Israel I don't give a I don't care we should be deleting our Instagram and TikTok it's my job like other than that I wouldn't be doing it it's just you're contributing to absolutely you are screaming into the void and people like Elon Musk are literally like ha ha ha thank you for lining my pockets

for giving your political opinion that's all it's doing oh my god am i even making any sense thanks so much adele walton for joining me in the studio today our second time round here we go yeah it's the first time you could read so much about the book yeah it was it was a bit like of a question mark over that yeah no i think we can get down and dirty with it we can but before we get into the actual questions and the nitty-gritty about what was in your lunchbox uh are we messing can you tell me what you're reading at the moment

I am reading A Woman is a School by Celine Saman. A Woman is a what? A Woman is a School. So it's a school. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's all about indigenous knowledge and reclaiming indigenous knowledge. And she is the founder of the Slow Factory. You might have seen on Instagram. They do like educational resources about indigenous knowledge and resistance and politics. So I'm reading that. And I just started talking at night.

where that below I did a little bit I did it for my book club I did like it and the general consensus as well was no people do really it's a bit like a young adult novel okay because it's like a bit of a will they won't they but in like a literature sort of way and it was just kind of well obviously it was her first novel and she's an artist I think Claire

So the way that she describes things is really beautiful, especially like landscapes and where she sees the world. It's really nice. But the way that she described relationships, I felt like it was a bit immature. And for to keep the reader engaged, she would just like throw in something random, like something real dramatic, just like, and then suddenly. Yeah, like in Irish, we always say, because we always used to take the piss out of it, learning Irish in school and you'd be writing a story that people would always say, ach gtoban, which means, and then suddenly...

Or it means, but suddenly. So we'd always say, ach, gotobar. Yeah, just like real, like, a way of immature, you know, the way children describe stories. I've seen people try to write fiction. Or, you know, when you're a kid as well, at the end of your story, just, and then. It was just a dream. It was all a dream. It felt a bit like that. Maybe I'm a bit leaky about Marsh, but that was what other people thought as well. When I was reading it, I felt really embarrassed that I picked it for the book club. Oh, yeah, I have that feeling. No, it's on gets.

some of these up for you and you're like I'd let you down guys I'm not normally like this so literally and I was like you should have so got a picking box yeah but I saw it from a TikTok and this why I don't take book talk recommendations anymore because it's very much like it it's like recommending a pop stop it's like yeah it's likable and story where that's not really like an underground oh my god hig jam oh yeah hook you're not gonna find that from book talk maybe with some um reviewers yeah

but it was very much a general like the review that the person gave us if you liked sally rooney you're gonna like this which i hate when people say that because yeah it's not even in the same realm as yeah sally rooney writes it's just like a couple will they won't they archetype where like you know that sort of storyline which doesn't that's the only thing ever good girl bad boy yeah that's the thing yeah that that's the only thing but it was still enjoyable like i still wanted to read it i do think there's a good balance between

But reading something that's going to challenge you and make you empathize with the protagonist that isn't that likable, I think that's a really valuable thing to have, especially in human nature, to be able to empathize with someone who's unlikable. And the only way I think that we can get that is from fiction novels. But then I do think there's a slickery slope when people are only kind of reading very...

I don't know how to say this without being insensitive, but like very easy reads. Yeah. It's like if you were only ever watching sort of like comedies, I weren't watching anything to challenge yourself, like anything educational or whatsoever. It's like it takes away the gift of what reading gives you. And...

I think that sometimes, which does relate back to your book now as well, because it did make me, it caught up being thunk when I was reading your book. I'm excited. It is fantastic, by the way, but I was more looking at the correlation of like the addictive nature of short form content. Yeah. And also the correlation with the rise onto intellectualism. Yeah. Because people get so used to getting the facts straight away in like a 30 second click that they're not taking the time to

think through things thoroughly or use our critical thinking skills which I think you exercise those muscles in your brain a lot if you read fiction novels and because it's like you're able to empathize with different types of stories different types of people without you being

overloaded with information it's just like a natural process that happened to conviction I think because people aren't reading as much because people are so reliant on their phones we're losing that gift of being able to use our critical thinking skills and they pay attention to things for longer which is so scary but the rise as well of like haste towards specific groups of people

It's all but much very like exacerbated by anti-intellectualism and not like thinking about other people's story. It's very much like black and white and well, they're wrong because of this. Exactly. Yeah, and totally. I think social media and I think particularly like Twitter, I used to use Twitter quite a bit and I don't really anymore since Elon came in, but I feel like

the way that these platforms are designed really encourage us to respond so quickly to things that we don't necessarily know the full facts about. It might not even be true, you know, like seeing misinformation and thinking, I need to like say something on this because then people will know that this is my stance on this issue. And these are my core values. Like in the book, I write about how there was a tweet that came after the escalation of the

Israeli occupation of Palestine, there was a tweet that was like a watermelon mug on Starbucks' website. It's very usual. Yes. And it was like, oh my God, they're trying to win us back by putting a watermelon mug on their website. And I quoted it being like, how dare they? Like, that's so pathetic and like performative and it's pinkwashing.

And it turned out that that mug was not from recent years. It became years and years ago. And actually someone had just screenshotted it and tweeted it to get, you know, to get likes basically and to get a load of retweets about an issue that, and actually, you know, it was a screenshot from years ago and it was totally unrelated to like the boycotts that we're seeing now. So I do think social media encourages us to respond really quickly. And that's why also we are like,

Oh, critical video skills. Like, who needs that? Because all I want is relevance online. I want that positive reinforcement that I'm right in this argument, in this debate, in this, like, whatever's going on, whatever conversation's being had, whether it's political or not really. It's just that we are all seeking that validation and we're now wired to seek that type of validation for, like, for what we share online now. So, yeah. Was there anything that, in your research, that really shocked you, that you found, like,

Or is it just a little shocking? I feel like because I was already reporting on the bad sides of digital technology, the harms that come out of social media, I feel like I wasn't that shocked, but I was really despairing at how little public awareness there is about these things. So, you know, like in my research, I found out a lot more about the fact that algorithms will boost content that promotes self-harm,

eating disorders to teenage girls and it will promote misogyny and toxic masculinity to teenage boys and what shocked me really is that

There isn't that yet public awareness that these tools are designed to have that behavior-inducing effect. Like, we all know that, you know, young girls are struggling with eating disorders. Young boys are becoming, like, radicalized into liking people like Andrew Tate. But we don't know to blame social media companies for profiting from that type of harm. So I think...

I wasn't shocked, but I was angry. And I came out of it like even more angry at people like Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, who sort of sell us this lie of like, no, but we're just trying to connect you. And it's like, no, you're not. All you care about is money and nothing else. And what's your relationship like with the Internet now, like previously versus now?

I think I've really like reclaimed boredom. Like boredom is underrated. Like I will now a lot more just sit and daydream and stare at space. Like when I'm eating my meals, I won't be like doom scrolling or like when I'm sat with a friend, I won't necessarily have my phone like right next to me on the table. So I think because I had like 100,000 words to write in the space of eight months, naturally I had this sort of like

from the attachment and addiction that I had to social media in a way. And I wouldn't have previously called myself addicted to social media. But since writing the book, I'm like, it definitely was an addiction. Like, I was just sort of embarrassed to say it because it is a bit embarrassing. It's like, yeah, it's not like it's sexy. No, it's like you're addicted to social media. Like, that's sad. Like, why do you love the likes so much?

But we are. Like, we are so juicy. Like, you do feel good when you get on your bed in the morning and it's like, oh, people have complimented me overnight. Like, that's a nice feeling. And, like, especially because so many of us joined social media in those prime years of being a teenager, because I did. I remember going to bed and thinking, like,

I wonder what notifications I've been away to talk to in the morning. Like it was Christmas. Like going on Instagram was like unwrapping a Christmas present. Oh my God. That's sad. But it is like a little bit of dopamine. Of course, in tons. And teenagers feel the same way now. And I feel like a lot of our generation, like Gen Z, also like millennials, are starting to sort of come out and admit like, yeah, I have that addiction too. And I'm really glad that now it's sort of like,

normal to say that and to be like actually guys like hold my hands up like I am addicted to social media and it is embarrassing and I want to work on it because unless we all start like saying that and naming the thing like we carry shame and we shouldn't be shaming ourselves we need to be shaming the tech companies like it's their fault they're the ones that are embarrassing like Mark Zuckerberg is well truly embarrassing I'm also really oh my god he's such a loser I'm

reading careless people by Sarah Wynn Williams. And she is the meta whistleblower who's just come out. Um, Facebook tried to prevent her book from being released and it has been released. Thank God. Because honestly, what you learn from that book is just how sad and how much of a loser Mark Zuckerberg is. Like, I love it. It's so juicy. Like, it's just like, Oh my God, you are such a pathetic weasel. So yeah, I highly recommend it.

Is there any stories that you can remember now that you can save on the book? Yeah. Well, I mean, all of the... The book is basically a 360 into the harms that digital technology and social media is causing. So, like, in my chapter on misogyny, I interviewed a woman who...

is experiencing smart abuse. And smart abuse is the use of smart devices to abuse, harass, and basically stalk current or ex-partners, or anyone, it can be anyone. And her story was horrifying to hear because she discovered that her ex was stalking her through her car's app.

So her car, her particular brand of car has an app that you can use to like, you know, get all the data you need. I don't know. I don't drive. So I don't know what data you would need for a car, but yeah, like all this stuff, like, you know, where the location is, you know, like tax things. I don't know. And she realized that,

He had basically downloaded the app. And because of the lack of safeguards that are implemented when designing technology, because so much technology is not designed with like the experiences of lived experience people, like with those experiences of harm, inputting into that design process.

things get overlooked. So no one, you know, in this company thought, right, hang on a second, won't this be really dangerous for someone who's a victim of domestic abuse or stalking and harassment? No one thought that. So she was being stalked through this app.

Because he downloaded it on his phone and he could just track it using solely the number plate. All the information he needed was a number plate. There was no login. There was no like password to set verification, any of that stuff. So that was the first thing. And then when she shut that down after like emailing the company, begging them, telling them her situation and saying like, please, can you, you know, shut it off on my account? They did that.

But he responded. So he knew that she had requested a shutdown of that form of stalking. And she then also bought a high camera because she was scared of him showing up on the door and harassing her. She installed smart technology that she thought and totally fairly, you know, thought would keep her safe because that's what we're told is that these technologies are for your safety.

And he hacked the high camera. So he was messaging her, quoting things that she had only said in her home, not on the phone, not on text, not to anyone. Oh, my gosh. Quoting what she was saying. And she knew that she had only said those things in the comfort of her own home. And he was basically, you know, harassing her through that. And it was just like a total power play. And every time she shut down an avenue that he was harassing her or stalking her through it,

he would do something else. He would retaliate. So he then, after the Hive camera thing, he then hacked her Facebook accounts and sent out like a smear campaign to her friends and family over email. He would log into her email and book like hundreds of restaurant bookings just to like spam her inbox so she couldn't see what was actually important in her inbox. And I, she had gone to the police multiple times. She had told me she had a log of,

that she did show me of every instance of harassment and abuse that he had done to her. And when she went to the police, there wasn't enough evidence.

And it's like the police... One has to be in it. Exactly. The police are so ill-equipped to fight these types of, like, evolving harm in the digital world that they have no capacity to basically support. I mean, we know they don't support women anyway. Like, a lot of the time they fail women consistently. We see that, you know, rates of, like...

charges for you know crimes against women are like abysmally low but with digital technology ever evolving like

perpetrators are getting really smart and they're using these things and these tools to harass women, uh, in a way that they'll be totally like not held to account for. So that was the most like awful for me. And she, she had a child, you know, she was not only scared her own safety, but her child's safety. And to go through that and to feel totally alone, um,

and invalidated by the police. I just can't imagine how hard that is. So yeah, I'm really grateful to her for sharing her story with me and being brave enough to let me write about it. And are they taking it any further now? I mean, she is still trying to take legal action, but...

but obviously one of the issues of legal action is money cost of it. Yeah. So she can't afford to take legal action against him at this point in time. And until there is that tangible evidence that he is committing a crime, the police won't act on it. And basically what that says to survivors and victims is unless this man leaves handprints and fingerprints and, you know, physical signs of abuse on your body, um,

We don't care. Like, what is that saying to men who are being radicalized by Andrew Tate and people like him? It's giving them a free card to abuse women. And saying this is okay. There's no consequences. Yeah, there's no consequences at all because these systems of safeguarding aren't in place. We haven't caught up with it.

and also there isn't that political will to catch up with it. Like, unless we collectively as a society are saying, you know what, we really need to make sure that police know how to deal with these things. At the moment, the only people saying that really is survivors and campaigners. Like, it isn't our politicians all the time. It isn't the general public. It isn't the media. We're failing. Like, we're drastically failing.

Can you tell me a bit more about the activism that you do for campaigning for the government to take more action against it?

So we are a group of families affected by loss due to social media harms, online harms. And after losing my sister to online harms, I joined that group. And we essentially have been really closely involved with the Online Safety Act, which is a piece of legislation in the UK that aims to make the internet the safest, the UK the safest place to be

on the internet in the world. It's a very ambitious, like, ambitious thing. And it started being drafted, like, around five years ago, I think. Yeah.

So a very long time ago. And obviously, like the Internet is ever evolving. So it has been a long process. But yeah, essentially what we do is we meet with MPs. We tell them our stories. We try and keep the pressure on them to push through legislation that is going to protect people in the digital age.

And at the moment, that is even more important with Trump, especially recently coming into power. Like the last time we spoke, I don't think he had been elected. And now the resistance to...

online safety legislation is only growing because Trump only cares of course about like you know economic like prosperity also tech bros have been given basically free reign over American democracy now with you know them all coming to the inauguration and essentially what we're seeing is that

Keir Starmer, to be honest, has been a bit crack. He's really gone a bit soft when it comes to his stance on online safety legislation. He recently actually said publicly that the Online Safety Act would be up for negotiation in terms of the tariff deal with Trump. So what he's saying there is like, look, go easy on us with your tariff situation that you're imposing on other countries.

And in exchange, we will go easy with the Online Safety Act, which is awful because what he's saying now is forget children and young people's digital safety. What we want is to you to not crash our economy, which, of course, I understand. Like, we don't want to crash the economy, but online harms are not good for the economy. Like when people are dying, when people are suffering, right.

When technologies are being used to like destabilize democracy, to harass people on a systematic scale, that's also not good for the economy. So, yeah, I think we need to see a change in the framing around what is good for

for the economy versus what is bad, because a lot of the time there's this thing of like being scared to talk about safeguards because we're scared that, well, that doesn't sound sexy to AI companies or tech companies, but like we've got been a fish to fry. Like people shouldn't be dying as a result of the harms that are, you know, basically being pushed towards them online. Cause this isn't just a passive thing off,

oh, you know, someone falls down a rabbit hole and, you know, it's their own fault when they end up coming across harmful content. That's not the case. The case is that algorithms are designed to addict us no matter what the cost is. So whether or not we're scrolling consuming content that promotes suicide or whether or not we're scrolling content that promotes us to enact certain other forms of like extremism in society, um,

tech platforms don't care. So they don't care about, you know, our countries becoming like reckless places. They don't care about people being killed because of what's been shown to them online. I mean, that's another story that I included in a book, but we can talk about that later. But yeah, essentially, that's what I do. And I mean, but what we really need, and I would say to anyone listening is like,

We need more people who haven't directly experienced a loss or a bereavement or an online harm to be like also championing the need for online safety and emailing your MP and saying like...

it isn't just a handful of people and families. We all deserve to live in a safe digital world. And like, we all have shared interests in this and that's really, really important. And I don't even think it's just like, that's the extreme end of things where people are actually losing their lives, but it is so detrimental to every other aspect of our society. Yeah. Because even people are losing their minds over digital harms. Like,

The uprising of misinformation and disinformation, particularly during lockdown, actually turned a lot of people... People have lost their parents, lost contact with their friends, actually ostracized themselves from their communities because they're just regurgitating this really harmful rhetoric that...

we're all anti-stabbing and we should trust, like, actually experts, scholars, people who know what they're talking about and it's all, like, us against them sort of thing. Like, I understand the distrust in the government, but it's, like, turning people away from people who've studied a particular...

subject for years and years and years, yeah, and saying that they're wrong because I read this thing on Facebook. Yeah, you know, totally. And that goes back to what you're saying about, like, anti-intellectualism and how, like, we're so quick to, you know, basically react to things online. And I think, like, as well, you know, we're becoming more lonely, more isolated. And, like, the issues of our time right now are so...

perverse when it comes to climate injustice, racial injustice, social inequality growing, like gender inequality, all of those issues are

We will not be able to tackle them if social media continues to harm us in the way it is now, if it continues to profit from dividing us, turning us against each other. And, you know, we know that like mainstream media and MPs already do that. Like we don't need another thing in the mix that is then going to fuel that at such a fast array, because obviously with the spread of social media, the fact that

Things can spread so quickly, like disinformation, like harmful material. We are really, really at time here where I feel that it's so important that we start holding tech companies to account in a really serious way and actually rejecting the norms that they have imposed on us because they really have...

reject society over the past 10 years. Like, they really have rewired how we behave with each other, how we react to each other, how we even, like, exist within ourselves and the way that we think and see the world. And it's, like, so urgent that we tackle that right now. But how do you think that people should get both moisture evolves? What could they do? Well, there are loads of campaigns that you can get both with. Like,

In the UK, at least, there are campaigns such as Not Your Porn, who, Not Your Porn, they fight to end image-based sexual abuse, and they are brilliant in supporting survivors of abuse as well. There's also smartphone-free childhood, so parents can get involved in that and essentially press MPs to not necessarily ban smartphones or ban social media, but to make sure that it is safe for young people and for under-16s.

also open rights groups so they really are fighting like digital surveillance and the type of policing that we've seen rise with with technology such as like facial recognition technology but also I would say like

The main thing that I think people should do is to have more open conversations around how social media makes you feel. And like, just chat to your friends about how it makes you feel. Like, but also have those intergenerational conversations is really important because we're being divided between generations online. So how we combat that is coming offline and having conversations that aren't being had online. And I know like,

As a Gen Z, like, I think before I wrote the book, I felt a lot more distant to, like, boomers. Yeah. And to, like, even older than boomers. Like, I was like, what could I possibly have in common with that generation? But actually, like...

We all have shared values at the end of the day. Like, we all want to make our loved ones feel happy, healthy, safe. We all want to lead, like, happy and healthy lives. We all want the best for each other and for our communities. But...

online, that's not what we're seeing. And that's not how we're being encouraged to like react and to behave with each other. And so I would just say like, get offline, like get offline and chat to your neighbours, go for a coffee, like ask a stranger to like, do you want to meet up? Like, do you want to be friends? Or like, you know, like just compliment people in real life, like doing all those little things is so important for offline connection. And that like,

those natural responses that bring us happiness as humans. Like, we are social beings and, like, you know, like, eye contact in itself, like, boosts oxytocin so rapidly. So just, like, looking up from your phone on the tube and, like, trying to smile at a stranger, like, you might not get a good response, but, you know, like, just...

Just put it out there. Maybe not men. Oh, yeah, definitely not men. Yeah, you're right. I'm pretty sure she wants to have sex with me. Exactly.

But yeah, can you talk a bit more about how social media is unsafe for young people and children as well, I'm sure? Because I've been seeing, especially when I was watching Love Island, they're advertising, Instagram are advertising Tina Kiss, which I don't understand how that's even allowed. Because especially when there's something addictive, like you wouldn't be advertising alcohol or cigarettes to children. But now they're allowed to advertise social media to children when we know it's addictive. Yeah, 100%. And I think this Tina Counts thing is very much like a reaction to the fact that

Like social media companies know that they're under scrutiny now, like a smartphone free childhood like didn't exist a couple of years ago. Now it doesn't. It's a huge and it's a global movement of parents who are really concerned. And I feel like tech companies are like sort of putting out these really performative things to be like, look, guys, we do care about children's mental health. Look, we like we are safe.

But the evidence shows that they're not. Like, if you talk to any young person now, they have experienced, inevitably they have and will have experienced a type of online harm, not necessarily to the extremity of, you know, necessarily...

sexual exploitation but so many of them have and like they will have experienced something uh that is negative to their quality of life to their well-being um and essentially like it goes back back to that thing of profit like social media has not been designed for the safety of anyone let alone children it's been designed to

hardwire us to be addicted to dopamine. And dopamine, of course, in small doses and, like, you know, natural instances is a good thing. It's a thing that our bodies, like, need to some extent. But there has never been, I think, such an easy and instant and endless opportunity for that fast-paced stream of dopamine that is basically...

you rather than you consuming it and I think that's the problem when it comes to social media with young people in particular is because their brains are still developing and those networks are and pathways are still getting used to like right what do I need in order to feel good in my life like what things will make me feel positive and if they are being set down this stream of like all

oh, I feel really good when I post a selfie and it gets 100 likes. But I don't feel good if it gets 30 likes, you know. And that is a reinforcing thing that will lead to them having those ingrained habits. And I feel like I was definitely one of those children. I don't know about you because I don't know what you got on social media, but I got on Instagram when I was 12 and...

it is definitely hard and wide need to be addicted to that form of dopamine and validation as well. And rather than feeling happy within ourselves, actually like seeking that happiness constantly outside. And in terms of a,

Like the way we present ourselves rather than what we can give to the table and treat our conversation or like intellect. Yeah, it's all about what we look like. 100%. For boys and for girls, you know, it is about like, well, what are you on this like flat representation of this profile of yours? You know, like I, it's funny because I sometimes, I feel like the full writing the book, I used to,

And this might sound literally crazy, but in ways I would sort of prefer my virtual self to my real self. Because I'd be like, oh, I'm so much more confident on Instagram. Like, why don't I just speak like that to myself or to people, to like strangers? But in real life, I get this like, oh,

you know, you get social anxiety, we feel a bit nervous when you meet a new person, like, but those are all natural things. And actually, the thing that is not right is the way that we are presenting ourselves online, like that is the thing that is unnatural. But because so many of us now are essentially living our lives through our digital version of ourselves, we are separating ourselves from like, what is natural, what is human, and

What is a very normal response to any situation? And I think people are getting so addicted to, like you said, their virtual self and they're getting uncomfortable or they don't want to sit in the discomfort of feeling social anxiety that they'll further and further isolate themselves from meeting people in real life. Yeah. Because I feel like there's a lot of people when I did an episode on phone addiction, actually last week I recorded it and I got people to send in how it's affected their lives. And a lot of people would text in talking about how they're,

they'd be on holidays and their partners would just want to be in the hotel room on their phone or like not be hashtag living in the moment, but on their phone. And I find that difficult as well to balance when I'm making content. I don't know when I'm crossing the line, but it's like, I'm supposed to be recording this, but also I want to just remember it in my head. Or it just feels like it hasn't happened. And it's the same thing when we make those jokes, like blitzing, being like, oh, take a picture in the gym where it didn't happen.

But it's like 100%. But even at that, it's like you're not being present. You're just exercising your body. Like everything is for...

Public surveillance. Like, public, the public's approval. Yeah. And it's all a performance. Like, there's that, I can't remember who came up with the phrase, but I read about it in the book called, like, the Facebook eye. And it's the idea that we all now have, like, an internal Facebook eye in our minds that is always, like, scanning the room or scanning the situation for, like, content opportunities. And I was like, yikes, that's so relatable because I can not even, like,

describe the number of times like I've been in a really lovely moment of my life and I've been like how can I make a TikTok of this you know like how do I capture this yeah or like I've already thought of the caption for the post and I'm like

That action's so good. But, you know, and I'm like, there's no harm in sharing. Like, I'm a sharer. I'm an oversharer. Like, I love to share. And that is what drew me to these platforms in the first place is that, like, especially Instagram is a visual platform. I love taking pictures. I love sharing pictures. And there's no issue with that. But what...

When it becomes harmful, I think, to your own life is when you are living more through that rather than being in the moment, like you say, and just experiencing it and like cherishing it. And like not everything has to be public. Not everything has to be shared. And that was something that I realized while writing the book, because I

I hadn't announced it until after I finished the book. So I didn't announce that I had a book deal until I had written the whole thing. So for a year, I was writing it completely in private, in solitude. And like, I was like, oh my God, like I'm not posting any of this process. I didn't post a single story, a single like Instagram post about writing the book until afterwards. And it got me thinking like,

And asking myself, just because you haven't posted, like, does that mean it's not worthy? Like, you're literally writing a book. Like, that is really incredible in itself. It doesn't need to be, like, cheered on by however many people in order for you in yourself to be like, Adele, you've done a good job. And I think that is also...

what a lot of people I think who maybe do struggle giving themselves praise because I'm definitely someone that's more on that like I'm hard on myself like I lean more that way and I think

That is why I have become dependent as well on social media and on Instagram because I'm not giving myself that praise in my own mind. So I'm, like, going to get it from other people. And that's, like, again, it's okay, but you need to be able to give it to yourself and also just, like, sit with your own themes and be like, look, like, maybe, like, give yourself a pat on the back, babe. It's all right. You're doing your job. You're doing the damn thing. I don't...

Can you talk more about that? I know you said it's something you've interviewed and you said you'd come back to it. Right, what it was? It was, you know, the chapter about in Ethiopia. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the people that I also interviewed for the book experienced like the direct impacts of

what we call, like, fake news and disinformation online. And I think a lot of the time, like, when it comes to fake news, maybe we can be like, oh, fake news, like, oops, like, thinking that it doesn't really have, like, real live consequences or, you know, maybe, like, in a day it will go away, like, it's no big deal. But my perspective on that really, really changed when I interviewed Abram, who is from Ethiopia, and...

Essentially, he is Tigrayan. So in Ethiopia, there is at the moment a lot of ethnic violence towards Tigrayan people and the Tigrayan community and his family are Tigrayan descent. And

His dad was a professor. Like, he was an incredible, incredible man. He published, like, so many papers in, like, international science journals. He had written, like, secondary school textbooks for children. Had gone to, like, loads of conferences across the world. Like, he was really, really established in this field. But one day on Facebook...

Someone who was obviously anti-Tigrayan people, like discriminates towards that community. They started a rumor that was not true and that he had committed some sort of crime. And essentially the post went viral and

and on Facebook and Abram was like seeing these comments these shares and getting really concerned like rightly so for his dad's safety so he wrote to Facebook he said you need to take your post down this is really dangerous and because it also included his address so it had his home address um which obviously he was being doxxed so Facebook didn't act they didn't take it down

And despite Abram pressing them...

emailing them. And again, this is one of the problems with social media is that like when these harms happen, you really have no one to go to. Like, it's not like you can like go to the shop and, you know, the Facebook shop down the high street and be like, hey, like, can you sort this out? Or there's no number to call. You know, it's just like often just a form. And most of the time you never get a reply anyway. So it's an automatic. Yeah. I've reported things many times. Exactly. And nothing, nothing ever happens. So,

Nothing happened. The post wasn't removed. And a few weeks later, really, really horrific, horrific circumstances. Abram's dad was on his way home from work and he was attacked by a mob of people who had obviously seen the post. They were chanting what the post had said to him and they murdered him.

So he was murdered, brutally murdered. And Abram has actually just won a court case against Meta as a result of what had happened to his dad. So I'm really, really pleased him because he's

finally to an extent they're getting some sort of justice but they have lost their father forever they have had to move country and become refugees because they were no longer safe in Ethiopia and um yeah Abram is just one of the examples of what the real impacts are of misinformation and disinformation online but also at the same time not just the information that is spread by users but the fact that there is no one to go to when these things happen and

Facebook is you know like a multi-billion dollar company you have the capability you have the staff to have people on this like

This being their sole responsibility, removing harmful content, but they're not doing that. And yeah, this is what, you know, happened to Abram Saki. But I'm really pleased that he is slowly getting some sort of justice. And his case is like a real, a real like catalyst for what can potentially come for other people as well, because of course, he's lovely anyone.

And I find it confusing, though, how publications and, say, TV networks would be held to account and say they published something that was steeped in misinformation. But it's not the same for tech companies. Can you explain why that is? Yeah. So basically, that is because of a really old and outdated American law. It's Section 160. I could be making that up. No, it's not.

is Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. Basically, that law was created before social media even existed. So it was created in the really early days of the internet when, you know, the internet was just like MySpace.

When everything was just forums. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. Because what forum hosts were worried about was that there would be loads of legal cases about, like, what one forum user had said on that forum that would then, like, you know, lead to that forum being shut down or whatever. So this was before, like, the internet was governed by companies that are built for profit and was more like just, like, small communities, you know, very grassroots communities

the early days, the good days of the internet, basically. And Section 230 essentially says that these platforms, platforms are not publishers. So whilst platforms host content, because they are not the publishers of that content, users are publishers of that content. They can't be held to account. So tech companies today are still relying on that really old law. I think it's from 1996, right?

to get out of accountability for what is spread on their platforms today and it's a huge loophole basically like it's a legal loophole that tech companies have and also because they are most of them American companies and that is the it's an American law that very much lies in their favour so yeah we really need to get around that and I'm not sure how we do that I'm not a legal expert but

enforcing legislation in other countries that holds tech companies to account but also that ends the features and like gets rid of the features that fuel Totsapalm so like a good example of that would be in the EU at the moment they're talking about and considering a digital fairness act and

And what that would do is ban possibly addictive algorithms and addictive features like infinite scroll. So like the thing that gives us all brain raw, that can potentially be banned. And like social media would look completely different if we didn't have infinite scroll. It used to, like it's a relatively new thing. We didn't used to have infinite scroll. I remember, you know, scrolling to the bottom of Instagram. It's like, you're all wrapped up for the day. And I put my phone down and like walk away. Yeah.

But now it's endless and the Digital Offenders Act could change that. But again, those things will only come if there is public pressure from us to say to MPs, look, this is really what we want, because MPs are under huge pressure from tech companies because they have so much lobbying spend.

And they spend so much money going into parlour and basically doing like shadowy backhand deals to be like, look, don't impose fines on us. Like, don't bring in this law. Like, we'll support your next campaign. You know, things like that. So the public needs to counter that by being like, no, we are really loud and clear that this is what we want. And we won't vote for you again. Exactly. What did you do? I know the timeline of your book is like...

or I read it, was it a headline for an interview with you? But it was like, I did go on social media for a year and I wrote a book in the time. Oh yeah, I get it. So what else did you do? And how did you find a transition of being addicted to your feminist self before to then trying to distance yourself from it? Yeah. So one of the things I'd noticed actually was like regulating my screen time a lot more whilst writing a book, which I did using Opal. Yeah. Opal Gurley. Opal Gurley. So we...

I'm trying to show someone something on my phone and then they're like, wait, it's gone. I'm like, oh, I ran out of time. More social media you are. No, I have put so many people onto Opal and Opal is great, but Opal is one of the things I use to regulate my social media use. And also recently I've like, you know, you can move the icons so they're not on the home screen.

Oh, I've done that as well. So there's stuff like behind the scenes, like I have to search for Instagram on my phone if I want to use it. Okay. Which means like, if I'm like, you know, on my home screen, I won't just like passively be like, oh, Instagram next, you know, even though it's on Opal most of the time. So one of the things I really noticed since being more offline is that

I feel much more optimistic about the world. And I might sound like, how? How on earth right now in this day and age? But it's because I'm not doom scrolling. And I feel that there's only so much bad news a day that you need to consume. I am all for awareness. I'm a journalist. I have to be informed. But...

It gets to a point where it's like any more of it is not actually making you do any more in your daily life to challenge those things. Like any more of it is not making you any more active in your community. And actually it's probably just going to fuel despair and make you feel like,

what is even the point of bothering to try and that's what I felt a lot of the time before and now I feel a lot less like that and also I feel more hopeful about people like in general like strangers I say yeah I look at strangers in a much more positive light which I'm really pleased about because I think before I was like quite not trusting of people um and like just like walking around like not suspicious of people but just thinking like

maybe putting them into those stereotypes that we get on social media you know oh they're a boomer so i'm not like them or oh they're a boomer so i'm not forgetting what they're or oh they're a man so they're gonna be horrible you know like those things and those stereotypes that we get online i sort of release a little bit and that's been really empowering to just be like no people are okay you know like if you actually have a conversation most people like are decent at the core um

And that's been really lovely. But another thing is that I actually spend a lot more time with my friends offline now than I did before. Even though I'm actually more busy. Like I am more busy this year than I was two years ago with book and everything sort of picking up.

But I have so much more time to see my friends and it's because I'm not scrolling. And when I am on my phone, I'll like message a friend and be like, right, let's get a date in the diary. And then we have that secured lockdown rather than being like, oh my God, I've got four people to FaceTime this week. Do you know what I mean? It's like, no, you don't need to have all those FaceTime appointments. You can actually just like meet one every weekend in a month.

And then that's so much more fulfilling. Like, it's so, so nice. Like, I'm like, wow, like, actually loving with my friends. Yeah. Like, so much better than just texting. So much better. Yeah. Or, like, sending them TikToks. Like, yeah, it's fun. But, like, there's nothing better than, like, all just being in a room together. Yeah.

I find as well, if I'm on my phone more, I start to dread the part of socializing in real life because it seems like it would take a lot of energy. Yeah. So you got this in the cycle of like social fatigue because I'm giving you this false sense of like, I'm socializing. Yeah. I'm seeing other people speak all the time. Yeah. Getting overwhelmed with news. Yeah. Jason actually said to me yesterday, he was like, do you think if you had my for you page, you'd be less depressed? I was like, probably.

Really? Yeah, he watches all these videos of like Russians petting bears in the wilderness. Have you seen them? No, I'm like, you are on a different planet. Whereas mine is just like American news. You know, it's like, there's this super prison where they're sending all the immigrants to and I'm like...

No, it's really, really horrible stuff. But like, he's probably right. You know what I mean? But I'm still a limited advantage of time. But yeah, I do find that interesting that I get lazier more time on my phone. So it's not even that I have less time to see my friends, but it's like...

I'm too tired. Yeah. Even though I'm not even doing anything. Yeah. Because it feels easy, but actually it's emotionally and spiritually draining. Yeah. Like it's not, it's not fulfilling. It doesn't leave you better off yet anyway. And actually like, you know, there's, there's always that feeling that like, you know, before, before meeting a friend, you've got the devil on your shoulder, like, you know, like don't go, like just chill at home, like scroll. But like,

every time, even if you're tired before you go, you feel so much better afterwards. And like with social media, you never get that. And I think social media in itself, they were so smart when they called it that because it's not social at all. Like that was so strategic and so tapped into all of them. Yes, we're seeing people's faces all the time. We're not socializing like in any shape or form, like comments and exchanging like digital metrics

is not socialising. No, like, it really isn't. So is there anything else you'd like to end off the episodes? Is there anything you'd really like people to know about

about the dangers of social media or what you think is going to make people really angry because like you said it's like we we need people who haven't experienced these things directly to get involved in them yeah it's like for example like the western countries aren't well that now they are well like climate activists were getting involved before it kind of hit the western theatres and because we knew that people were you know getting drowned it out or like their their houses were getting ruined by hurricanes that sort of thing so is there still they are

It's probably... It's like social media is making her feel disconnected to other people's stories. But is there anything that you wish people knew to get them riled up and involved? Well, not to shame this self-blog, but read my book. Yeah. Because I think I have not only got, like, my sister's story in there, but so many other human stories of, like, the downsides, the harms that we're experiencing. And...

Only like you say, by hearing other people's stories and consuming that type of news, because it certainly isn't making a lot of the time. It's not making headline news like there are so many harms, digital harms that people are facing. It doesn't get in the news. It doesn't get reported on. It gets ignored because it's not seen as a priority. It's seen as like one off freak accidents.

single tragedies that are just like, you know, it's like a rare niche thing, but it's not niche at all. And actually we all have shared stakes in this and we all have shared interests in making the digital world not only safer, because that's the bare minimum. Like we want it to be safe, but also we want it to be palatable.

empowering we want it to be fun we want it to be like productive optimistic like we don't just want it to be safe you know that is a cop-out that is the bare minimum of what any company should make their product but actually going further than that like

I want us to all be able to imagine like, okay, what do we want more from social media? What do we want more from the internet? What are the ways that the online world makes us feel really good in our lives and good when it comes to connecting with other people? And like, how can we cultivate more of that? And I think there are, you know, there are certain apps that are doing that already. And there are certain like,

communities like your community and the way that you signpost people to, you know, educational resources, but also in-person events that you host. And like, I just...

been inspired by you started hosting logging off club events so phone free events in the UK and like doing more of that and going more towards that is something that I think can make people feel hopeful because we don't just want to feel angry because angry is like the first thing we want to feel but then we also want to feel hopeful because otherwise you get anger fatigue and then you're like I can't deal with this there's too much bad news in the world I don't want to like you know

spend more time doing bad news and I totally understand that because it is despairing and what we actually need is hope and optimism and like more like imaginative people designing the digital world yeah mic drop

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