party girl to hiker girl pipeline: sobercuriosity & the search for connection in your 20s
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One, two, one, two. Oh, I'm so excited to record this episode. I have a bit of a wishy-washy relationship with going out and with alcohol and it has changed throughout the course of my life, which I'm sure most people can relate to because as you get older, obviously you start getting your priorities change, what you're interested in changes. Your friends also start going in different directions in what they like.

and their lives. There's a poem that Ellie used to read for me, My Friends All Have New Beliefs, something like that. And the reason why I wanted to make this episode, dynamic and the climate of my friendships has shifted so much. The friendships that have withstanded all the changes that I've gone through, like becoming a mother, moving countries, that sort of thing, have all been off the basis of anything that's not to do with alcohol or like going out and partying. So any friendship that I was based off of going out all the time has never withstanded

any other like change in my life. It's a hard pill to swallow as well once that you're not going out all the time. Who are your actual friends? Because I thought that a lot of people would have been that were really close, maybe even a bestie, maybe even best friends. And then when I wasn't going out anymore, I realized, oh, they're actually not even my friend at all. And they don't give a...

They don't give two monkeys about me, which is fine. And I always thought as well in my early 20s because I loved going out and drinking during that period of my life. And I think it was because, I don't know why I loved it so much, but it was just the buzz, the feelings of elation, obviously with drinking, going out and seeing new people your own age, just having a fucking whale of a time. So I always thought that I was an extrovert, especially because I was on the internet, obviously as well, being like, look at me, look at me. These things aren't as binary as

these things can also change throughout the course of your life. They can change throughout the course of your cycle, girls. Am I right? I always thought that I was an extrovert. And then once I stopped drinking, once I got pregnant, once I had my baby, once I... I'm just growing up. Growing up with Ketamon Cream. Drink. Drink.

Drink. So once I was moving away from drinking and going out partying, even just socializing in general, I think I'm just in my hibernation era. But once I started going away from that, I realized that maybe I actually am an introvert because then when I was sitting in social situations, and I only noticed this when I was pregnant, I was sitting in social situations where other people were drinking because there was nothing else that people were doing. Like people were just going to the pub. Hi. Hi.

Okay, she's back downstairs. She is being supervised by my sister. When I stopped going to big social events and drinking, the big kicker was when I wasn't drinking. I love being in company with people, but I found that when I wasn't drinking, I'd be a little bit shy. Wait, oh my God, maybe I'm a little bit shy.

And I didn't know how to socialize without drinking, without being intoxicated. Like I genuinely had to. It was like I was learning how to socialize all over again. It is a muscle that you have to exercise, like practicing talking to people in a more like civilized way. Because if I'm around my sisters all the time, it's not, that's not the normal way that you socialize with everyday people. Like, cause we're just shouting over each other sort of thing. And like just saying outrageous things to each other, which is lovely, obviously. But then I had to kind of practice how to socialize with people. And then even the phase of my life that I'm in now, I'm not drinking that

often at all and if I do I have a hangover for a bit a week and it's not worth it I just don't have the time girls but what I realised because I like socialise basically with my own events which is so fucked up when I was at them that would like fill me up like it would literally pump me up for the rest of the month just having that one

event where I'm like speaking with people and everyone's on a good buzz and everyone is there to make friends. So it's like less intimidating as well than reaching out to people or like go to a social event where it feels as if everyone already knows each other. For example, college. Tell me why every... And now I went to three different colleges. Tell me why every time I went to a college, it was like everyone had the secret group chat before...

We went there? Like, what the fuck is the story with that? And then you have to really put yourself out there to integrate yourself into what you perceive them as already pre-existing groups. But they could have just met that morning and they just look very friendly with each other, you know? Because even at the events that I go to where everyone has come on their own, it looks like everyone has come together, but it's just because they're really open to getting to know people. And you can feel that energy where it's like, I'm open to speaking and I'm open to making new connections and new friendships.

which is a really nice environment to go into rather than like a club or a pub where everyone is already there with their pre-existing groups. Do you know that kind of way? It was highlighted to me again then just the reliance. I don't heavily rely on alcohol anymore now to socialize as much as I used to because I'm like, my body has kind of adapted to it now where I can go to an event and like have a buzz while I'm sober. I was having a conversation with Saoirse about this before and I was saying this was now, this is just my own opinion. Obviously, I was in a safe environment where you can like

speak your truth and I was thinking I wonder no I wasn't even saying I wonder I was like I feel like some people are more allergic to alcohol than others where it has really bad side effects like it makes you act in a certain way and I would never and I don't like that saying drunk man's words or sober man's thoughts or something I don't believe that to be true at all because alcohol is literally a poison and it changes the chemistry in your brain so I don't think that's true maybe in certain circumstances where it can help you open up a little bit more but I don't think

It's like, oh, that's who they really are. They're showing their true colors. If someone does something bad while they're intoxicated, that's not the case. I don't think that's the case at all. But I was saying, I feel like

Some people are more inclined to have negative reactions to alcohol more than others. And Saoirse was like, that's pushing the blame on people rather than the actual alcohol, which is the poison and is what is poisoning us. And I said, Saoirse, that's so true, my bro. Obviously, she knows more about it than me because they like read loads of books on soberism.

Oh my God, what? I'm actually, wait, making up words, Dr. Coulomb. It's just that I found it very difficult to socialize without having sort of like a tool to help me. A lubricant, if you will. I do think there is a cultural shift at the moment of people turning towards sober curiosity. Now, and you might think that this is a few factors, a few influences.

We could say social media because, you know, there's a few overlaps. Social media can influence real life. Real life can influence what goes on social media, vice versa. Health awareness. People being like, actually, you have so much access to all this information and what is affecting us. I mean, like we could literally just Google, why am I depressed? And one of the things could be like, try cutting out alcohol, cutting out social media. You know, it will give you like a 10 step program on how to be a bit happier. So we know that alcohol is not good and it's a, it,

it's a depressant and it's not good for our bodies and our overall well-being our mental health our physical well-being our relationships with other people we know that it's not good but I do think this sober curiosity is like

There's an undercurrent of being influenced by, stay with me, Cozzy Lives, because alcohol is so expensive. And then because humans are so well adapted to like survival, we want to make the best possible scenario for ourselves. So we won't be like, oh, I can't drink because...

I can't afford it. We're making up new things now. We're like, why don't we start a sober curiosity movement? Now, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I think this is fantastic. And we're so intelligent, such intelligent beings that we're like, we're going to actually create a whole movement around sober curiosity. First of all, saving money. Second of all, saving ourselves, saving our brains. Third of all, saving humanity. What? And there is a pub owner

that I speak to regularly and he said it's like fucking, it's like a disaster. Even if the place is jammers from Thursday to Sunday, they're still only scraping a boy because of the, again, because of the cause he lives in Dublin and everything, it's really hard to keep a business open. Lack of mental health services in Ireland. The wait list is for free...

free therapy the cost of therapy the pressure that we're under to just keep ourselves afloat so what we're doing is we're cutting out alcohol which is like the first thing to go which I do think is the step in the right direction and it's probably positive but the negatives that can come with that especially if you're in your early 20s leave any

any age to be honest you can lose out on that sort of sense of community especially in Ireland where it's so focused on meeting in the pub going out for a drink you can lose that sense of community and socialization feeling a part of something having a bit of fun you know we're losing that and it's like it's not catching up with us to replace it with something else now it's slowly coming in like there's I saw there's a Pilates class now where there's like they play techno music

That's a bit of a buzz. There's like pottery painting. I think you can drink at them though. You know, book clubs, supper clubs, cookbook clubs, run clubs are a huge one. I know Ireland is like loves a slag as well. It's like all these things have been slagged but it's,

also great and I do think that's coming from a place of shame where people are slagging because we're like this is embarrassing we should just stick to what we know and stop trying to go outside our comfort zones but I do think it's a step in the right direction in terms of like replacing that sense of community and like a regular meetup third space do you know because we can't even sorry I got given out to in my local library for my toddler like playing with something and I was like that's literally the point

the point of the toys in the library. Like why would you put toys in a library if you don't want kids to play with them? But that's a lot of children's, especially in the community that I live in, that's a lot of the children's third spaces. If they like, for example, if they don't go to daycare or whatever, that's where the other kids meet, other toddlers meet each other. It's like you have a toddler meetup group. I don't understand. Anyway, that's another story for another day. I have beef with my library. But anyway, it can contribute then to loneliness if people haven't caught up or if there's like not a club or

anything that you seem to be interested in that's replaced the sort of socialization that you would have been getting from having drinks with your friends. And of course, you can still go for drinks because there's fantastic zero-zero options. Apparently, I heard this now, word of mouth, I don't know how true this is, they can't keep up with the demand for the Guinness zero-zero. So they're not, they don't have any budget for marketing opportunities

Guinness 00 because it is already so popular they literally like they want to turn people away from it because they can't even keep up with the demand for it lurve Guinness 00 is so good as well I tried it when I was pregnant I still do drink it sometimes it's very good with this conversation I think it's important to touch on loneliness y'all know I'm literally obsessed with talking about loneliness I know I get slagged for this saying that it is the biggest killer

of humanity. I do think it does actually lead to death. I'm not being dramatic. Stay with me. Am I losing you? Listen, you can look this up. You can ask AI. You can Google it. It has such negative implications on our health. Not only our mental health, but also your physical health, which is fucked up. It's like we have enough things going on. I don't want to be having to worry about another thing. With mental health, loneliness is

chronic loneliness can lead to increased rates of anxiety, depression and other mood disorders. Increased risk of dementia is associated with heart disease, weakened immune function and higher mortality rates. Difficulties with sleeping and can lead to substance use as a coping mechanism, which then further exacerbate

exacerbates the social isolation. It can also lead us to social withdrawal because we're feeling so isolated and then two, it's like kind of self-destructive or perpetuating the emotion that we're feeling, which then leads to just a vicious cycle. With the shift, obviously it's fantastic that we're not drinking because that's a positive to our mental health. But if we're feeling excluded and isolated and not a part of something, it also then has negative impacts on our

well-being and our mental health and our physical health. But if you use social media to our advantage, so like texting people, having phone calls, FaceTiming, and I don't know why people have such a huge aversion to a phone call. I'm always going to be answering the phone. If you want to prank call me, I'm going to answer. I want to engage. I want people, bring back prank calling. I have this fantastic app. It's called Opal. My

and my friend Adele who's an advocate for safe social media use she put it on her Instagram and basically what it does is it blocks all the addictive well you can set what apps it blocks so I have a block for Instagram and TikTok for a certain period of the day and then you can take breaks in increments so I have my break set at five minutes so if you need to post a story for example when I needed to put up a story for this podcast and I was like I want contributions I

I'm able to take a break to upload the story and then that's it. It's like setting a healthy boundary with yourself. Now that hasn't affected my screen time per se because I'm using my screen time for Google Maps. I'm using it for editing videos and stuff. So my screen time is still like quite large, I'd say to the norm.

compared to the normal, the average Joe. But then I'm not going on the addictive apps like Instagram and TikTok and like comparing myself to other people, make myself feel shit. So that's a really helpful app. It's called Opal, O-P-A-L. Another thing I'm obsessed with talking about is capitalism. Is capitalism making us more lonely? So I asked ChatGBT if capitalism is making us more lonely. It was interesting the results were

because I do personally, I love blaming stuff on capitalism. I think it's my favorite thing to do, which is so fair enough. And I do think a lot of times is a valid opinion and point to make when it comes to loneliness and community based issues like lack of community, lack of third spaces. We do have the power to create those ourselves if we just set our minds to it. And I don't think blaming capitalism is any way productive, because even if we were to get rid of the economic system tomorrow, there would still be a lot of those deep rooted issues conditioned within us.

for example like individualism and that we're all out for

the success of ourselves rather than the achievements of the community as a whole. And we do champion, celebrate and focus a lot more on personal achievements than we do over what's called community ties or the connections of the people within the community. That is a big problem. That is a symptom of capitalism, but it is something that we have to start working on like right now and today with the awareness that that has influenced and like almost pushed the forefront of capitalism because it keeps us

sucked in. And another reason why capitalism is to blame, but also something that we could advocate for together as a team is work culture. I'm no person to talk, obviously, because I'm an influencer and like we work probably the least out of every job title there is. I do think it is important to note that work culture and for where I'm standing is fucking insane. There's definitely jobs out there where they could do with a little more

leisure time. One extra day off a week. I really, really highly doubt that is going to harm the company. I do think there's a huge misconception that if people were given too much leisure time, too much time to think, too much time with their own space, with their own family, with their own hobbies, an extra day off, they might become a little bit more lazy. They might care about their work or their job a little bit less. I, however, would

would like to debunk this theory because surely if you're working for a company that cares about their staff, that wants you to enjoy the time that you have at your family, that wants you to go actually have the time to enjoy the money that you're earning in the job that you're in, you are going to want to work more for that company. You're going to want to work harder for the days that you are in. You're going to want to reach your targets and your KPIs or whatever the fucking words are. You're going to want to contribute more to the people that you're working for. You're going to have more respect for them. Am I wrong? Are you guys picking up what I'm throwing down right now? So because we don't have an

many third spaces if it's not making money it's not going to stay afloat they're not going to be funding it the government's not going to fund

somewhere for adults to go in the evening. And I know this sounds ridiculous. It's like if we created sort of a community hall for adults to hang out that the government pays for. I can actually hear middle-aged men in the back of my head going, ha ha ha, you have no idea about the economy. Silly girl. But if we did have that, we'd have a better sense of community, be able to hang out with each other without the pressure of having to spend money. And because we don't have our own homes,

A lot of us don't have our own homes. A lot of us are still living with our parents. We can't even have friends over. I know when I was living with my parents, with my dad, I could never have friends over. I wrote down a few things on how alcohol affects mood, behavior and your cognition. A few of these things I wasn't able to pronounce, so I did the shortened version of it. So sorry if there's any people like neuroscientists listening to this.

I'm sure there isn't. But anyway, just in case. Okay, so number one is neurotransmitters release. So it affects the neurotransmitters such as, this is the shortened one, GABA.

Okay, let's just call it GABA and glutamate. So GABA is an inhibitory. So it reduces brain activity and causes sedation, makes us feel relaxed. And that's the kind of thing that makes us make bad decisions, I presume, because we're not thinking as much. We're just like, yeah, I'll go along with this. That's no problem. And something happened when my frontal lobe developed. Every time I have a drink now, I'm just like falling asleep. I'm not even like on

like on a buzz, sort of maybe slightly, a little bit of a buzz and then I just want to go to sleep and I'm tired and I can feel my eyes getting dry and I want to go to bed. I don't want to go sleepy bye-byes. It inhibits the glutamate, which normally increases brain activity. So that's what helps us like make decisions and think, I presume. When you drink alcohol,

It causes a dopamine surge, which causes pleasure euphoria. But it's also addictive. And anyone will know if you have ADHD, you're kind of at a dopamine deficit that you're constantly...

like chasing a buzz and looking for a buzz. So people with ADHD would be more inclined or susceptible to addictions. It causes serotonin to be increased initially, but excessive drinking can disrupt serotonin production, which then can lead to mood disorders. And when you drink, the brain structure actually changes. So it causes a shrinkage in areas responsible for decision-making, impulse control and memory. So if you're drinking a lot and you can find yourself forgetting things, making bad decisions...

and I know Ellie talked to me about this. She read a book on quitting alcohol and she said when you have a drink and you have a hangover for the, I think it's the next week, it impacts your decision-making skills. So even if you feel like your hangover is gone the next day, your brain structure has changed from that binge drinking session that you had at the weekend and it can then thereafter affect your decision-making for the rest of the week. So if you're going into work, if you're driving even, it can affect your

I've said this three times. It can affect your decision making. But do you know what a good replacement is for drinking? Hiking. And there's a huge surge of people who like used to be party girls are now really into hiking. And I was...

I was sucked into this. Now, I do love a good hike. But again, with the ADHD thing, you need to really, really practice or like focus on practicing delayed gratification. And it's so... I find that when I'm actually lonely, because Jason was away for the weekend and when Bea goes to bed, it's really, really lonely. And this was... It was like this as well when we broke up. The evenings were a nightmare because then I was all alone with my thoughts. It was when I felt my loneliness...

Because I couldn't leave to go see friends or like leave to go for my sisters. Obviously my baby's asleep upstairs. I can't just leave her there. So I'm stuck with my own thoughts and that was the hardest time for me when I was single. So I... That was when I was most like gagging for a drink or wanted to have a drink but I got really, really addicted to my phone then in the evenings. I proper was like, I'm...

scrolling for hours doom scrolling for hours on end and then making myself feel so shit about myself because everyone else obviously on my phone was going out having fun anyone my age was like out with their mates or whatever or at home with their family and their husband and their kids in bed and watching a movie together and that's all I wanted to do like I wanted to socialise not even socialise but I wanted to be in the company of someone else even to watch a movie with someone when I was single I barely watched telly at all because it was so hard to watch something on my own it felt like

So lonely. And breakups, I think, are the worst in the evenings. Then after I was waking up in the morning feeling so bad, going for a walk, doing all the things that I was supposed to do, and I thought something's got to give. I've got to change. So then I started putting my phone in a different room. I put her to bed, get the monitor, leave my phone in my bedroom, get my book,

and go read downstairs so I wasn't even grabbing from my phone or reaching further checking my notifications no one was even texting me anyway nothing in the inbox and it was probably that even going on my phone reminding me constantly that no one was texting me just being like nobody loves you so I was going downstairs and reading and it

It actually changed the trajectory of my whole life. I'm not messing. That's when I got real into reading, like real into books. I was making those reels being like five stars and I was literally reading like there was no fucking tomorrow. I was reading as if it was going out of fashion. Like I could not stop reading. I was reading like two books a week or something, which is crazy. I will say, even though I was really lonely, reading to me is like an act of mindfulness and an act of meditation because I'm not thinking of my own thoughts. I'm just focusing on the book. That probably was...

my brain chemistry changing a little bit

from the reading and I kid you not it was probably the happiest I've ever been in my whole life and when I first had my daughter I was comparing myself to a lot of people my age and like old friends I would have had because in my early 20s I'd say from the ages of 19 to 23 were my most my biggest party girl phase era I suppose and it's also when I would have had my most friends or like the biggest group of friends that I thought and I think I'm one of those people where I think that we're closer than we are oh

It's so pathetic. It's so pathetic and sad. But it's like, even if the other person doesn't think we have a close relationship, I'm like, that's my best friend. Oh, it's horrible. Well, back then, I don't think I have that now. I think all the friends that I have now, I do think that I'm going to have for the rest of my life. Like I'd be safe enough picking one of them to be the god mother or father to my child. Do you know that kind of way? But yeah, I think that through that period of my life, I had my most friends and you feel the most sort of like invincible because you feel as if it's like a...

false sense of security that all these people will be behind you and like back your corner if you're not around when realistically that's probably not the case and not true at all. But if I look back retrospectively, it's also the period of my life where I was the most miserable. I was the saddest, most dissatisfied, maybe a bit of disappointment because my early 20s weren't as what I expected them to be. I thought they were going to be really glamorous, like going on crazy dates all the time and like...

getting loads of opportunities and meeting all these amazing fantastic people and going to cool parties and cool bars when realistically it was like I'd go out for one night have anxiety the next day and then to kind of assuage that anxiety or bad emotion bad feeling I'd go out drinking again so it was like constantly I'd say for a good two years of my life I was either hungover or

or drunk for a large proportion of that time, which obviously is not healthy, very toxic. And I wasn't able to do things in moderation. And I do think if you have ADHD and you're in a little bit of a dopamine deficit, you're trying to fulfill that or like chase dopamine in little parts of your life. And unfortunately, you are probably more likely to pick up on unhealthy or toxic things

to achieve that and I do think a lot of mine was smoking and drinking and going out because it was giving me that quick like dopamine hit because the first parts the first few drinks that you have it does give you a dopamine hit or a serotonin hit but then the huge crash after that is detrimental to your health your mental well-being and your physical health

There are other ways to achieve that dopamine in a more delayed gratification sense or a more healthy way where there isn't the huge crash or like negative implications that are going to come after it. It was a tough pill to swallow after maybe I started going, I stopped going out partying and I got pregnant. I wasn't going out partying obviously all the time. And then when I was in all these situations, I found that

there weren't many friends that wanted to meet me outside of a partying scenario. And that's when it really changed for me and the landscape of friendship and friendship dynamics changed for me when I wanted something deeper. I wanted something more. And that's not their fault either. That's more just like my life is changing in a different direction to what theirs was. And I wasn't willing to compromise on that end. So it's probably a lot to do with me as well. It was kind of like these people that I thought were my friends were like, oh no, but you're so social and you're so like this.

but it wasn't like me at all that's like I turned into a turned into a different person when I drank obviously I was more social when I'm drinking because I'm drunk you know I wasn't actually like that sober or like in my normal state but it was really sad obviously coming to terms with that and trying to like process that maybe these friendships weren't as deep

or meaningful as I thought they were because every time winter rolls around and why I wanted to talk about this now is obviously I'm just like battling with my own inner demons constantly and I'll go through a really good period of spring and summer where I'm going hiking all the time and exercising and reading and doing all these things where I don't even notice that I'm not going out drinking because I have my really close friends now that either don't drink or like that's not the things that we do together if you know what I mean it's like normal that we wouldn't go out for a drink

It's like a little treat if we do sometimes, you know, like if my man friends like seeing a teacher outside of school, you know, if you see your man friends to go for a drink, you're like, I can't believe we don't have the babies. I found that when it's coming into the winter months and everyone does get a bit sadder because you're not getting as much sunlight, there's not as much things going on and it's a lot of darkness. So obviously that's going to have implications on your mental well-being. But I find that during this period of the year,

I'm always craving a drink and it's like, I'd love to just quench the thirst and go out for a pint. And it's obviously my brain trying to look for

it's like a survival thing where it's trying to get the dopamine back going and the serotonin and the easiest way it knows how is to obviously go for a drink it's the Irish no that's probably a fucking stereotype the Irishness in me it's just I'm you know craving a pint all the time and I just need my Guinness but it's no it's a it's probably normal for a lot of people I don't know if you're listening to this and you or do I just have a terror oh my god do I

Do I just have a really bad problem? Both of my sisters don't drink now. They're both sober and they still go out and party. Like they still go and socialize and they're still in that setting because that's what all their friends are doing. Like they're in their early 20s, you know, that's what they're doing. But they found that the selection for 00s, alcohol-free options...

And they still have a good time. And they're still out until like early hours of the morning. And they're able to do that. Let's read the fucking contributions. Because these are really interesting. And I think it made me think a lot differently. Because there's obviously people here who don't drink that often. Or maybe don't drink at all. Who don't have children. And I'd love to know...

what you guys are doing, you know? So someone said...

I still don't stop myself having a drink or going on a night out if I'm really in the mood to do that but I prefer driving to a night out and not drinking or having one or two drinks I enjoy like a good cocktail and chatting with friends. Right someone said as someone who hasn't has had not a great relationship with alcohol for some years now I've pretty much stopped drinking outside the odd Aperol ball. Now I will like to add this I think the people are making it up that you like Aperol spritz

I think they're so disgusting. It tastes like cough medicine and like not the good cough medicine, like this real medicinal sort of like sweets. And everyone keeps saying, oh, you need to have a proper one in Italy or whatever, or you need to have one in Lisbon, you know. And then I went to Sicily. I had an Aperol. I didn't like it.

I didn't like it at all. Speaking of Sicily, when I went on holidays with my sisters, obviously the two of them don't drink. So when we'd go like out together, I'd have one drink at dinner and then one drink at all because what was the point? And I do think drinking is obviously intrinsically social. And if you're drinking on your own, usually that's when alarm bells are going off and there's probably a problem because it's,

it's meant to like lubricate the conversation and make you more sociable I suppose that's what it is it's like a social act same with social smoking like loads of people social smoke because you go meet people in the smoking area you're talking to new people it's like a new space where you're like we're bonding over these

these smokes. Yeah, I don't like the taste of Aperol and I don't think I'll ever get the right one. I just had to put that down. I'm sorry if that's offensive. No offense to the Aperol community. But I really struggled for a while as it felt as though I was drifting away from a group of friends. In brackets, I also live abroad, so there's definitely a bit more pressure on maintaining friends slash friend groups as it can be harder to make new friends. Language, cultural barriers, also getting older, I think sometimes it's harder to walk up to a stranger and be like, hey, want to hang out? Lol. But one thing I've noticed is that it

has really shone a light on my true friendships. And in the last few months, I've met way more people with similar interests because the way I socialize has changed. I've met so many more people after my yoga classes. I started a book club, also just chatting more to people in my local gym slash cafe. I'm so much happier and feel so much more aligned with myself as I realize a lot of my drinking and I didn't finish the message.

That's my fault. After I stopped drinking, after I had my baby, it was like I had to relearn how to fucking talk to people again. I was so socially inept, literally didn't know how to make conversation, like was actually a bit awkward making eye contact and all. But now that I've like built up the skill and socializing is a skill, the same confidence and other traits that we would see as innate to a person, like being sociable, confident, you

making conversation they're all skills that you have to build and it does take a lot of work and even if like the different aspects of your life change if you get a new job if you move countries you kind of have to restart again because when you get comfortable you're not exercising those skills or exercising those muscles in your brain if you're only talking to your close group of friends that maybe you've had since primary school you're not really adept is adept a word?

Adept? Yeah, adept is the word. Okay, you're not really adept at socializing or making conversation with new people, even approaching new people, making new friends. And making new friends also is another really good skill, which I have been pretty good at, pretty adept at in the last while, especially since hosting the BookSwap social events, because I'm talking to new people all the time. And I suppose as a host, I'm like,

I have to be on my A-game, you know, and I have to make everyone feel welcome and also show, you know, set the tone for the night. But what I found at these events...

It's like a social experiment. Everyone going there and it's the majority of people going on their own. Like the odd time people come with their sister. But see, the rule is in the bookshop socials, you have to sit away from people that you've come with. And also you swap seats every five minutes anyway. So you're talking to new people all the time. One of the girls in Australia, she was like, I feel bamboozled because I didn't know that this is going to be a swapping seat situation. And I was like, what did you think the social meant in bookshop socials?

But everyone always afterwards, even if they don't know what to expect, everyone always afterwards comes up to me and be like, I've had such a good experience at this and I've gotten a lot. I met really nice people. And I know the girls in, was it from London? One of the girls from the London Bookshop Social text me and said there's a group chat and they regularly meet up with each other. So I think that's like, I've gotten the best out of that situation. I wanted people to make friends and I've achieved that. But what I found at these things is people are so much more open because

when everyone else is, when you can feel that everyone else is coming to try and make new friends and maybe you can feel the energy that other people are a bit nervous around you. You yourself get comforted and a bit soothed by that as well. And I do think as a whole, as a people, I don't know if I have sort of like a rose-tinted glasses sort of

hindsight view of the world when I was a child. We probably all do and then it gets tainted with like disappointment and fucking horrible things. But I found that when I was a child, people would be more open to speaking to strangers. Am I wrong? Say for example, now my mom is a real like

chatting to strangers sort of person. She would fucking talk to anyone. I remember once when she came to visit me in London and she was like, I'm at this church. And she'd been talking to these two women outside the church and they were trying to like bring... What's that word? They were trying to...

Convert her. Yeah, they were trying to convert her into this. And she made me go and sit in the mass with her and all. I was like, how did you get off a flight and then you've gotten converted into a new religion? Like in the space of, what, two hours? Anyway, such a legend. I've obviously seen that and mirrored that as a child growing up that it's like normal to speak to strangers. So then when I was an adult...

It's kind of, especially living in London, no one's really talking to each other. You know, it's like we're all sitting on the bus and it would be so strange if you turned to the person next to you and you were like, lovely weather we're having, you know? Whereas I suppose in smaller communities it would be and you'd be most likely like, you know the person sitting next to you, true someone or whatever. In big cities, like we're not really getting that.

social interaction with strangers. And that is also really important. It's not like that we just need to have friendships and friendships groups. Obviously, that's really important to have really close relationships with people outside of your family. But also social interactions with strangers and the people around you does make you feel a part of a community and a wider, broader, we're all one, we're all connected in some way, you know, and it does, I would say, increase our level of happiness. And we have lost that somehow along the way. Oh,

my god wait I'm literally a philosopher or something it does make me really sad because I first of all I'm too shy I wouldn't be doing it I feel uncomfortable I do remember complimenting someone once in London and then turning to their friend and laughing at me because they maybe I don't know what the fuck that like scarred me and I was like I'm never going to give anyone a compliment ever again but then when I was in London the last time when I was doing podcast interviews a woman came up to me on the on the tube and was like I love your skirt where's it from and I was like

fucking buzzing that someone had interacted like a stranger had interacted with me first of all I got a fucking compliment second of all I was able to give her the name and like give her a tip on where to buy and I was supporting small independent designers Flora May skirt that I was wearing

kudos to you so I just felt like that was such a nice interaction and it puts you on a fucking buzz normal stranger interactions it does it pumps up the other person if you're giving someone a compliment you know fuck that girl who said who laughed at me when I gave her a compliment that time I'm not going to let her I'm not going to let the haters put me down I'm still going to

Because it's bringing lightness into the world. All you're doing is good. You're complimenting someone. You're having... You're chatting to strangers. You're saying thank you to the bus driver. But there's also then little pockets of people that are like intentionally going out of their way to make communities and like communal spaces for people in London, which I do think is fantastic. But it's...

it's frustrating that the people in general have to go out of their way and probably spend their own money to do that. Whereas like the government should be on a local level, should be providing that for people because it's good. And I'm like, maybe this is a bit tinfoil hatty sort of thing, but it's almost as if they don't want us talking to each other. Huh? I'm going to let that hang in the air there.

It feels as if we're getting the social interaction with strangers on social media. But the problem with that is with the anonymity, people act in ways that isn't socially acceptable because they think that they it's like the depths of hell that come out of people when they think that they are protected by anonymity. They want to release their anger. They want to release whatever hatred is spewing in them, frustration. And that's all normal. They're all normal emotions.

But people are not processing them in a healthy way. They're like, it's creating spaces on the internet that are fueled by disdain and horrid, horrid things. Dark, dark pockets of the internet. And that gives people a sense of community, but it's off the basis of something bad. I think that that is really terrifying and horrible. I'm talking about like Laura Bates, why men hate women sort of shit. Like Reddit forums of men disparaging women and saying how much they hate them.

fueling this hatred they're all in it because they're in an echo chamber they're fueling each other on egging each other on where they that's become normalized to them and then it will act out I'm going on a fucking tangent but it will act out then in their everyday interactions with women in real life because they think that their online pocket can

community is normal and that's allowed to go on, that in their real life that they think they can act out in this hatred and spew hatred towards women. So this is like perpetuating misogyny. It's perpetuating racism because there's no protection for any hate speech, for any sort of like violent

What's that thing called? And we've seen it with all the misinformation and disinformation upcoming to all these elections that are happening all over the world. And like the more leaning to the far right because it's like fueling every frustration and piece of anger that they have. And again, the government isn't doing anything to help. Like surely there should be more legislation to protect with hate speech. And I don't mean like...

Everyone has freedom of speech until it's like fueling violence towards people. Obviously. If we had more of these communal spaces in person, we'll be able to act more socially acceptable, loving, compassionate to each other rather than being given like all these online forums where you don't need a fucking...

you don't need to prove your identification to make an account it has a domino effect on like every part aspect of society that we just need places in person to meet each other and I do think it's also inhibited inhibited by the imbalance of work-life culture because we're all working so much and so tired we're still not getting reaping any benefits from working hard because you can't even get a fucking house now if you're working fucking seven days a week

working in three jobs. They're still saying it's your fault. You need to work harder. We don't have time to socialize. We don't have time to talk to each other. So people are going on their phones and going on to online forums or whatever it is to talk about how much, how angry they are and how much they hate everyone, pointing the finger at a specific cohort of people or a person, person, individual. And then it's just perpetuating hate, exacerbating the,

distance between people the distance between communities and it's just fucked us all up am I talking shite I'm going to read the next one now I really like to drink alcohol free bubbly slash wines besides alcohol I usually drink too much because it calms my head so now I still feel like I'm drinking but have less anxiety I feel like at almost 30 a lot of people around me stop drinking or are sober curious it's just not worth it too expensive and too much of a mental hangover I stopped drinking 5 years ago I'm 26 now woah

Back then, I used to get blackout drunk and hated not being able to remember the night before. Being sober was grand when living in a city, Belfast. With so much going on, I've moved to a more remote part of North West Ireland in the last year and feeling more now after five years. So much of culture here is based on going to the pub and relationships are built on having pints together. That is the third space. Brainstorming now...

How to build a third space, which isn't that in a small village, but it's hard. Hated getting touched in clubs and feeling like shit the next day, but loved to dance and socialize, then became a bit of a hippie and found ecstatic dance. It was the game changer I craved. Now I couldn't tell you the last time I was in a club.

Jesus, that's brilliant. Ecstatic dance. I'm 34, two kids, and I just feel so much more emotionally vulnerable when it comes to hangovers. My body slash mind doesn't let me away with mistreatment. Still enjoy drinking and going out, but feel like I'm rolling a dice with regards to the after effects and can't justify that. I do not miss the clurb.

I am sober around eight months now, but never drank much. As a student, I struggle to find affordable but fun alternatives to socialise in Dublin and, as a result, don't tend to go out too much with friends. I do a lot of things alone, such as yoga classes, etc., but it is a little isolating as I'm not a huge fan of going out sober. I don't really miss going out, but I do miss having the opportunity to socialise and it seems so much easier to make connections with people when drinking, even if they weren't deep and meaningful. Wait,

Me and you should meet up. I found the gym slash fitness to be the best replacement and it's such a self-fulfilling hobby. I just need to make the step to make friends within those spaces but find it quite hard. Little tip here. And this works with your sister. Like, I find it even hard. Now, I do see my sister, Saoirse, a lot now because she minds be twice a week. But with my other sister, Ellie, because she doesn't live at home anymore, I find it real difficult even if we're FaceTiming. We don't have time or...

schedules aren't matching up to meet each other. We are friends on ClassPass. Not an ad for ClassPass. I'm just obsessed with ClassPass.

So I had ClassPass in London and it wasn't really big in Dublin when I came back here. But now it's gotten on a buzz again and there's loads of studios that are a part of it. There's only a few gyms on ClassPass, but now there's loads of places to go. But if you're friends with someone on ClassPass, they can see what classes you're going to. And we do live quite far away from each other. So a lot of the time during the week, we're not going to be going to the same classes. But on the weekends, which is so much more fun because then we can plan our...

first of all, you're doing a bit of exercise together. That's fucking brilliant. So it's like two birds with one stone. I love... What's that thing called? Habit stacking. Habit stacking. Oh my God, Diary of a CEO job.

but if you go on to ClassPass you add your friends to it you can plan to go to classes together early in the morning 5am start you're getting up earlier you're doing a bit of exercise you're seeing your friends before work you're getting pumped up you'll have a great rest of your day then on the weekends you can do the same now I know it's a bit harder to get up earlier during the winter because it is a time to hibernate get cosy and sleep longer your body just needs that extra like sleep

I find that I'm so lethargic during winter months because my body is just like, it's dark, I need to sleep, you know. But it's such a good tool, I think, ClassPass, to be able to book classes together, to go together because you socialize and annex those at the same time. It's brilliant. Recently have stopped drinking on big nights out, that's in quotation marks, i.e. ones I think I'll be out till 2, 3 a.m. so I can drive and make sure my friends all get home safe because of the state of getting a taxi in the city. Oh, wow. I and most of my pals live in town, so never more than €10,

taxi anywhere and because of this no taxi will ever take my run when it's busy I'm not trying to get a taxi because I'm lazy I'm doing it because walking isn't safe and I'm so often left standing on a street for twice the length of time it would take me to walk home trying to get someone to take me and it's too annoying so I just drive now sober curious or sober by necessity lol who knows but I'm not that gagging for a drink that I put it above my safety and that of the girls oh my god this diva

"'What a good friend. That's brilliant. I would love cafes to be open evening time.' There were a few I remember now. Thou who shall not be named. One of the big coffee chains.'

on Westmoreland Street now I remember because they had an indoor smoking area and I used to love going on dates there indoor smoking area it was open late at night no I think it was open I don't know if it was open 24 I think it was actually open 24 hours because it was very near Trinity and a lot of students would study there even though the fucking internet was shite I remember trying to do college work there before and the internet was so bad but anyway that was so good but that closed down

And I don't know if anything replaced it. But why do these things close down? Because there's still these cafe chains everywhere. Is it too unsafe or is it too expensive to run overnight? Because I can imagine that it would be packed, especially up until like 1am. Maybe not on the weekends, but like definitely during the week with students, no? As most close around 6pm and friends finish work around the same time. So trying to meet someone is hard when the only places are pubs or restaurants and you just want to have a coffee and a chat.

And a lot of pubs and bars as well, they close the fucking coffee machine. I'm alcohol free for two and a half years. It just wasn't adding anything to my life. Love being able to drive home when I'm ready to go home on a night out now and wake up fresh and go about my day not losing any time. And I don't think I'll ever drink again.

Someone said, oh yeah, this is Leah. This is Leah who I had. She was the counsellor for the Socialist Party and I had her as a guest from a previous podcast about the housing crisis and making community as well. If you want to go listen to that, it's brilliant. But she has really good takes and I love this. Okay, so she said, I think this is a huge issue in Ireland. While the nightlife could be better and we know people are campaigning on that, there's actually nowhere to just be.

The elimination of third spaces that don't require you to constantly buy things the way you do feel in cafes. On weekends, the only obvious options for activities is like, let's go to town, grab dinner and a drink. Now there's definitely more to do that

but that seems to be the baseline of any activity in Ireland. My dad is from Wicklow and I lived there for a while and it is dire. All you can do in the evenings is go to the pub. I'm not saying that there isn't other options, museums, parks, outdoor activities, but there is a real separation of those things. The cutback on third spaces, community spaces and clubs for people to be made...

And be part of, I think, is defo a downfall. And if we had those spaces again, we'd have alternative ways to socialize. But I think the key thing here is the way we have to spend money to socialize as adults. And we don't even have our own gaffs to do it in for free. Now, my dream now, if I make loads of money, is obviously, I feel like most people's dreams are that you want to financially support your whole family. And I mean, like, my siblings, my parents. I want to be able to

retire my mom, give her a big pension, you know, buy her a big car, a house in Galway, you know, all those things. But if I had loads of money on top of that, I'd love to buy a big house and have all my friends over for dinner, have spare rooms for them to stay in, you know, and maybe that's greed. And I feel bad for even saying that because you shouldn't be hoarding property. And I do feel very strongly against that. But it's like to be able to host people and have people over for dinner or breakfast or like for a sleepover. Yeah.

I love that and it's a real childhood dream of mine. I remember I always wanted like a big bunk bed so I could have, you know, with the double bed at the bottom and the single at the top so I could have my cousins over for a sleepover and I wanted them to move into my house because I loved my cousins so much and especially because I've been in such precarious living situations, I suppose it's a safety thing as well that if any of my friends or my siblings were in that situation where they had nowhere else to go or they didn't feel that they were comfortable living anywhere else that they could always come stay with me and I'd

always love to be able to house people and make them feel safe. Someone else said, I'm so glad you're doing an ep on this and I just wanted to add something I've really noticed. I hope I don't deter anyone from the sober curiosity, but I think the loneliness of cutting down drinking should be talked about and I would love to hear if anyone else is feeling the same thing. I found that spending my weekends more wholesomely now doing things I've always loved like hiking and walking is quite lonely and the realization that I made me to make

Wait a second. Seven years, now 21. Sixteen. Since you were fourteen.

Oh my God. Bob Marley. I'm so bored. And it's not as if I do nothing to do with me. Oh, sorry. I just want to add when I was 15,

No, actually, I'm not going to talk about that. Okay. And it's not as if I have nothing to do with my life. I'm in uni, have friends, hobbies. It's just inescapable, the feeling of being bored. It's a bit of a reality of quitting. Also, all the things not getting done regarding internal slash external parts of my life are now having to be dealt with in some way. And it's sort of scary that I know deep down I'm still avoiding them due to the same reason I started using heavily, because I'm scared of my own inadequacies.

hella avoidant at least now I'm in a position to be able to deal with this i.e quitting was was not a golden ticket you still have to deal with the issues that push you into that position in the first place which honestly can be the most daunting part now that's all the contributions I know a lot of people said that they do hiking or go for walking now but spending time in nature I've said this before has so many benefits for your mental well-being and obviously your physical well-being it's really really good and we should be spending more because we're we're

Primally, our primitive instinct is to be gatherers, women. Okay, girls? We need to be gathering things outside. We need to be foraging. You know, we still have that need to go outside and breathe the fresh air and look at trees and fucking flowers and stuff. The hiking is such a healthy replacement for looking for that dopamine hit because you get the delayed gratification. You're getting physical exercise. It's not like a sharp spike in dopamine, like from sitting on your phone or having a drink. You're...

You're doing it slowly so it lasts for a longer period of time without the crash afterwards. Hiking is linked to improved mood and well-being. It releases endorphins, which are the feel-good hormones. It generates serotonin, which regulates mood and reduces anxiety. It releases dopamine.

And you get that delayed gratification, you know, when you get the view at the top of the hill when you're hiking or whatever, if you get a good view at all. It reduces cortisol, the stress hormone, and supports neuroplasticity and overall brain health.

So that's why people are obsessed with hiking and running. And running, I suppose, have more benefits. But at the winter, I'm not really as interested in running. But hiking is a good winter activity, I think. You just wrap up warm. Oh, such good views. Even when it's misty and all up in the hills. Oh, stunning. But I hope you enjoyed this episode. It's such fun recording it. I'm glad I got it finished now because it took me a long time. I had to do it in two parts. And thank you so much for all those contributions. I love having people interact in the conversation.

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