Dice The PRISON Barber | Timothy Miller
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My name is Ian Bick, and you are locked in with Ian Bick. On today's episode, I interview Timothy Miller, who finds himself in prison, learns how to become a barber within the prison walls, and once released, becomes a barber and opens up successful barbershops. Make sure you guys like, comment, subscribe, and share, and give us a review on the audio platforms.

We all make mistakes, experience failure, and fall down in life. But if you decide to get back up and use it as fuel to your fire, you could choose to not let it define you. You can make it through to the other side and turn it into an opportunity. Join me, Ian Bick, as I interview people from all over the country who have experienced the rock bottom

of the American justice system and find out what they did to overcome it. These are the stories that will motivate you and inspire you to change your life. Timothy Miller, AKA Dice. We got to drop your legal name though, you know, in case any cops out there watching.

Welcome to Locked In with Ian Bick. Yeah, and when the SWAT come, don't say nothing. Awesome. So in all my interviews, I start at the guest's beginning of their story to kind of like see their journey along the way. So where are you from? What was your childhood like growing up? I'm from, I was born in New Jersey and I was raised in Hartford, Connecticut, man. My childhood was...

It was the average childhood in the street, or in the gutter, at least. You get what I'm saying? Like, it was... I had my mother. My father and my mother was dead, but my father was out of state. So it was, like, just a regular childhood, you know, growing up in urban areas, man, you know? Was it, like, wealthy, middle class? Nah, it was...

I don't want to say poor because we were straight. We had food and shit, but like it wasn't wealthy. You know what I mean? And it was basically like middle class. How do you think like your childhood growing up played into effect of the, you know, the person you would become down the line? Do you think it influenced like the direction you would go in? Yeah. Yeah. My childhood definitely influenced a lot. Like, you know, my childhood influenced everything you see today.

Because between seeing what my father was into, what my mother and stuff was into, and just the environment I grew up in. So, like, that basically formatted everything you see today. Now, high school, what's that like for you? High school. What are you getting involved in? Let's start with that. Yo, high school was fun, man. High school, honestly, high school was just all about, like...

Money and girls, man. That's how high school was. That's why I got six kids now. When did you have your first kid? I was 19. You were 19. Yeah. What's going through your mind when you have a kid at 19 years old? Honestly, bro, at that age, what's going through your mind is just really like, I got to make something happen, make anything happen.

And does that lead you to start committing crimes? Of course. Now, so what's the first crime you commit? And how old are you? Is it before that or is it right around the same period of time when you're having a kid? Oh, man, the first crime you commit, especially growing up where we grew up at, man, the first crime is selling drugs. And what was the drug of choice? Marijuana at that time.

Now, do you think that had you never moved from New Jersey to Hartford, Connecticut in like that urban ghetto type area, you never would have gotten to selling drugs? Oh, no, it would have been the same in New Jersey. So do you think back then, like I know it's easy to say that now and in hindsight, but back then, were you aware to the point where you're thinking, I have the choice to sell drugs or I have the choice to go get like a good education or get a good job and avoid that life?

At that moment, I knew what I was doing. You get what I'm saying? I knew exactly what I was doing, so I didn't really care. I know I could probably go to school and all that. School wasn't for me, so I know what I chose. I chose what I wanted. And what types of people are you hanging out with? At that moment, just...

Same type of people as me like you get on saying people that want to sell drugs and fuck bitches Okay, very straight to the point. Yeah, do you graduate high school? Yeah, so you finished high school very intelligent It's just choice that you make but you never make it to college or you go to college. No I ain't go to college. I want to trade school you are and what was your trade? I

I actually went to school for electricity, but that was just something to pick because my grandmother wanted me to go to school. So I'm curious, because obviously you're intelligent where you want to, you know, say, I want to go to trade school and you have... Like, not everyone's like that. Not at that age is able to figure out what they want to do and make a decision like that. Yeah. You're able to decide...

you want to go to a trade school, but you're still selling drugs and doing that. What was like the cause of that? What's going through your mind? Well, at that moment, to be perfectly honest with you, I didn't really want to go to school. It's just that my grandmother was on my ass about it. You feel what I'm saying? Like I really just did whatever I wanted to do. And I knew when I was younger that I was either going to do three things, either play basketball or rap or sell drugs. And

that's what ended up happening. - Okay, so you start selling the drugs early on. How does that evolve? What else are you getting into? - That was really it. I had a job 'cause I was always wise, so I kept the job as well too for pay stubs. - So you were just selling weed? - Yeah, that's it. - You never got into any other hardcore drug? Wow, so how much money were you making from selling weed?

I was making a lot. A lot. And were you living like a crazy life? No, I wasn't living no kingpin. A lot back then is not a lot now. Yeah. A lot at 19 is just enough to take care of what you got to take care of. So what year is this, to put it into perspective? We talking 0405? This is back then when weed is a lot more strict on a legal basis than it is now.

Yeah, weed wasn't like how it is now. Okay, so you're selling the drugs, the weed, you're making money, you're 19 years old, you have your first kid. What happens next?

What happens next? I end up going to jail at the age of 20. Oh, so this weed enterprise that lasted for... No, it wasn't a weed enterprise. It's not sitting here making it seem like I was some damn Bob Marley or some shit. But I sold enough weed to make some money to pay for the shit I got to take in. But you also sold enough weed to get you some serious prison time, though. No, no, no, no, no. I didn't go to... I never caught any drug cases. Oh, really? Interesting.

Interesting. So you were one of the few drug dealers that didn't get caught. Basically. But you were caught for something else. Yeah, I got caught for guns. So you went to prison for a gun case. Yeah, gun possession. Why did you have to have a gun?

because I lived in a hut and people die all the time. - So you just felt like obligated that you needed to have a gun? - Basically, yeah. In that timeframe, yeah. - And do you think that was just because of like the surroundings that you were with? - Yeah. - And was everyone just normally carrying a gun at this point as like a 19 year old kid? - People that was outside, yeah. - How do you get a gun at that age?

Shit, man. You just buy one. What do you mean you just buy one? Just buy one. The way I grew up, I couldn't get access to a gun like that. See, that's because you grew up in a different area. But that's what we want to hear about, you know? Like, when you're in the streets, everything is at your access as long as you tap that. You get whatever the hell you want if you tap that. At any age. At any age, yeah. Now, unless the person has respect.

And they say, you're too young. I'm not going to sell you that. But at the age of 19, everybody understands that you're outside and you're in an environment where shit could easily happen to you. You got people that actually like you and care about you. They'll sell you whatever you need to protect yourself. And did you feel ever put in like a dangerous situation because of you selling drugs and whatnot that you needed that protection? Yeah, that shit was like that every day. So you buy the gun, you have it. How do you end up getting caught? I got set up.

And how does that happen? Oh, man. Somebody called me for a situation and I went to go handle a situation and the police was there. It's just that simple. There was like an undercover type person. Basically, yeah. What they call a confidential informant.

And are you given bond? What happens? No, my bond was $750,000. And so you were locked up? Yeah, I was locked up. I didn't make bond off of that. Now, why was your bond so high? Was it just because of the type of crime or was there something more? Honestly, I do not know, to be real with you. That was one thing that caught me completely off guard when they told me my bond. Yeah. Yeah.

Now, do you get like a public defender or do you have a paid attorney? No, I end up having an attorney. A paid attorney. Yeah. What was it like to be your age navigating through that process? Yo, honestly, man, that shit was probably one of the scariest things of my life, to be real with you, because the charges were extreme charges. And it was like, that shit don't even make sense. You feel me? What was the exact charges? The first, it gave me three charges. Possession of a shotgun.

Possession of a sawed-off shotgun, attempt robbery on the first degree, and possession of a firearm in a motor vehicle. Those three charges alone, if I would have took it to trial, I would have got basically... If I lost trial, it would have been 30 years. So when they told me that, that shit had me scared as shit. Like, how the hell am I to get 30 years and I'm only 19, 20 years old? You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't like that shit. I was scared. Yeah. But...

I ended up getting, they dropped all the charges but the possession of the firearm. But I feel like they did that truthfully just to make a case stick, you know, just to get their conviction because they dropped all other charges. Do you, were you ever like put in the position where you had to testify against anyone or anything like that? I don't know. Did they ask you? Mm-mm.

There's no need to testify to nobody if it's just me on the case. It was just you on the case. So you get arrested. You're held on bond. How long did it take you to reach a plea deal with the prosecution? That took...

That case took 10 months. 10 months to resolve? And what was the time they ended up sentencing you to? I ended up getting 16 months. 16? Oh, that's it? Yeah. So they were just only the possession charge, the possession of a firearm on a motor vehicle. Okay. They dropped all the other charges. And what's it like to hear that sentence that you're going away for 16 months? Shit, I was happy as shit.

I ain't even gonna lie, I was already in for 10 months and the thing was my bond was so high that they had me with people that like they sent me off to McDougal, like the high pod. That's basically 23 and 1. So we're in high bond. I'm with people that's not never coming home every day. So that shit was like when they told me 16 months, I was happy as hell. Dude, my celly just had 16 years.

So it was like 16 months. Give me, I'm getting the hell away from these people, man. Yeah. And what's like, what's a thought process? Like, do you want to go back out and commit more crime? Like when you're in there, is that like a scared straight type thing or? It wasn't even a scared straight. My first bit honestly was literally just learning how to navigate in jail. You know what I mean? My whole thing was survival while I'm in there. Like I ain't even worried about when I get back home right now. I'm worried about my everyday in here because this is all new to me.

When I got home, I learned how to cut hair in jail during that first bit. So when I got home, I was trying to cut hair and that was it. But...

things didn't transpire the way I wanted to. How did you feel being a father in prison at that? You just had a son and now you're going away or a daughter and you're going to prison. I felt like shit, to be honest with you. Like, I can't see my son. I don't know what's going on with him. Like, I don't talk to his mother like that. Like, I got to have my mother reach out to see what's going on. It just don't make you feel good, man.

good man who was taking care of the child his mother his mother okay but you guys didn't have a relationship not at that moment no we we um talked while i was home we would talk about my son and stuff like that but we weren't together no more so you do the 16 months whatever you do on that you come out you're trying to get it together by becoming a barber but you end up back into crime yeah

It was the easiest way because I was trying to get different jobs. And when you have a gun charge as your felony, they almost look at you like a murderer. Yeah, I want to hear about that. So like they really treat you like like shit. Like you go to job interviews. I don't want to do plenty of job interviews where they said they wanted me to work there till they did the background check. And it was like, no, we ain't dealing with you. And how does that make you feel? It make you feel like you're back against the wall and it make you feel like if I don't

Go back to what I know. How am I going to survive? So do you think the system's like designed to set up to fail in that sense? Oh, yeah. I'm a firm believer in that. So you get out there, you're trying to do the barber thing, and then you get back involved into something. What is it that you get back involved in that puts you back into prison? I actually got caught with another gun.

So you're telling me you do it. You got you. You're very lucky. You get only 16 months on a gun charge, which is very low for the average person that gets caught with a gun. Well, not really where we're from, because there's so many so many gun cases will be from like it's like guns are just like phones out there. But you do know that like as a felon, it's worse when you get caught with a gun. Yeah. So you're caught with a gun a second time. Why did you have that gun?

because I was going out of town and we were going to a strip club and it was like, these dudes don't really like us like that. So we're going to go out here, but we're going to have fun. But just in case we need it. It was very dumb. I'll tell you that now. It was very dumb because we got up there and we didn't even get to party or nothing. And we got caught. So are you ever thinking maybe I need to change up who I'm associating with? Oh, hell yeah. That's my last bit. Because the thing was,

Again, at a younger age, you're not really paying attention. At this time now, I got three kids. So you have two more kids after you get out of that first bit. Yeah, so I got three kids at the time. And again, I was doing more cutting hair than anything at this time. So it was like, all right, but we only brought the gun for protection. We ended up getting caught with it. At this time now, I'm on some, I don't even want to play with my life no more. Like when I went to jail, the first thing I did was buy my Clippers.

And I said, this was the second bit. Yeah. My first thing I did was bought my Clippers. And now what I'm about to do is just cut here. I'm going to treat jail like this is my barbershop. Now, why didn't you think like the first time you came out of prison that maybe I want to pay attention to my kid? I want to, you know, get on the right track. Do you think it was because of those experiences not being able to find work that derailed you? Like, is that solely the reason?

No, it was honestly, man, when you in the urban area, man, you get glorified more for going to jail than you get glorified for going to college. So it was more like I was embraced more like, oh, you home? It was like a cool thing. Like, you get what I'm saying? So I got caught up into that and got caught up in doing just extra dumb shit. So it was like.

It was more fun than anything. Like, yeah, of course I was taking care of my son and do what I got to do for my son, but I was more trying to make sure I make my money first. Were there programs set up that you could have reached out to or like a probation officer or anyone that you could have reached out to for help to kind of steer you in that right direction? The only thing that we, that program that I got caught in, not caught in, but it was like a temp agency. They had gave us jobs and stuff like that. Like,

And that was when I first got home while I was on a bracelet. That didn't last long. It was like a temporary job. But it was like, again, if it wasn't warehouse work for pennies, you're not making no money. And this is all because you were a felon, essentially. Basically a felon. And also at the time, my mind state wasn't truthfully focused. So it's like you make excuses for a lot of shit. You know what I mean?

Now, the next go around now, when you start to grow and get older, that's when you start to tap into what you really want and what you really want to focus on. Where was like your mom in this when she when you came home from that, you know, from that first bid? Is she helping you get on track at all? Yeah, my mother was at home. I was living with my mother. So like, I didn't really have too much pressure of having to go pay rent and all that. I live with my mother. So you think if you did, it would have been different? Yeah.

If I had to do that, then I probably would have leaned deeper into the streets. So it was a lose-lose. So you were on the path regardless to get into something more? No, I still, I don't want to say it was a lose-lose. I actually, I'm actually grateful for having my mother still being there. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. Because it still helped me out because I didn't go that route completely to the streets to have to go straight and dig deeper into the streets.

How much time do you end up getting the second case? You get caught with the second gun. Second case was two years. Two years. Yeah. You only got four months more for having a gun the second time. Because, yeah, at the end of the day, it was more people in the car and...

The gun wasn't on my person, so. Okay, but just because you were a felon in that car. It was because I claimed the gun as well because it was mine and it was my car and the gun was in the car, so they put it on me. Now, this second bid is your last bid? Yeah. So all together throughout like your whole life, you've done basically three and a half years? Three and a half, four years, yeah. Okay, at this second bid,

what's your realization? Like when you're going into this prison, what are you thinking? What's your mindset? - This mind state was different. Again, like I told you, I had three kids. So this mind state was more or less like, I already know what jail is like, and now I'm about to go in here, take this time to fix myself.

I'm going to get myself together mentally so that I could come home and do everything that I need to do to win. Because, again, when I was in jail the first time, that's when I learned how to cut hair. I had a plan. I just didn't put that plan into motion. My second bit, I was forced to really like, you know what? It's different when you go to jail, you get caught, you go to jail, and you're stuck. It's different when you go to jail, you bond out, and then you have to surrender yourself to walk into this motherfucking place. So my mind state was completely different.

Now I have to go in here. Now this place is not even going to be jail to me. This is going to be school to me, the school of me. You feel what I'm saying? Now I'm going to go in there and focus on me, and that's it. So when I get home, I can do everything that I need to do. And that's how I treated that bed. And how old are you with this mindset? 27, I think. Yeah, I just turned 27. So there was a pretty good gap between you and the person. Yeah, between the two, yeah. Because the first case was 07, no.

Got home at 08. And the second case was 2013. I got home 2015. So you had a period of time to really like experience that freedom and kind of like develop more as a man. Right, right, right, right. So this second case, you were given bond to be able to surrender then? Yeah. The first case I got bond too. It just was too high. So the second case, that's interesting. Why do you think the first one was so high and the second one? Because I truthfully feel like the town I was in, I wasn't in my town.

So they don't have any records of me in their town. They don't know nothing about me. They just know that we were down there with a gun in the car. And it was like, all right, we just put a bond on them. And they must have didn't think we were going to make the bond. So I bonded that out. What's it like to surrender to prison? What's that feeling? Was there any feeling of, oh, I'm not going, I'm running? No.

Man, it crossed my mind so many times. But then I thought about it. It's like you got to take accountability for what you did, bro. Like don't run and make this shit worse. You knew what you did. You had a gun. Again, by this time I was older. My mind state was different. So it was like I got to go face the fire. And I went and go did it. I took it as more of a lesson than more of a lesson.

a thing that's gonna bother me. You get what I'm saying? - You took it as a man, you went in there with a good mindset. - Yeah, I'm gonna go in there, yeah. I'm gonna go in here, do what I gotta do, learn what I gotta learn. I'm gonna read books. I'm gonna really get my mental together and I'm gonna do what I gotta do. - What type of people are you associating with in the prison?

Truthfully, I still associated with some of the same people. I just limited how often I talked to them. So you weren't involved with like any gang stuff? No, I don't do that gang shit. Does that stuff happen though in the prisons you were at in Connecticut? Yeah, that shit happens everywhere. And what are like the politics like of these state prisons in Connecticut? Honestly, I don't know like what you want to say politics are. I don't know too much about a federal prison because I've never been there. I just know what I heard. I just know it's...

basically like the same shit but it's easier in state and what's like the dormitory or like what's the sleeping arrangements like it all depends on what level you went i i was in both for the last bit like in the cell action and then i had dorm action the dorm action is like probably like four that's what six people a cube probably about eight cubes it's like 50 something people in the dorm if not more and it's like

That shit small as hell. Like, the dorm is big, but the cubes are small. And you basically, I could reach over and tap the next motherfucker. That's right there. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. So you just better hope, like, hell, that he cool with you because you got to sleep next to him every night. Is there ever any, like, confrontation at all? Oh, in the dorms, that's where most of the confrontation is at. Did you ever get into a prison fight? Mm-mm.

So you just stayed completely out of the way? Like you were so focused on what you wanted to accomplish? Yeah, I didn't do a lot. Y'all get the fuck away from me with that, man. I want my money. I was the barber, so everybody was cool with me. All right, so let's talk about being the barber. Does the prison pay you to be the barber? They do, as...

You have to apply for that. You have to go to the council and actually get that job. I was cutting more hair than the person that was getting paid by the state. You were doing as a hustle rather than- Yeah, that's my hustle. Like, I'm doing this on the side. This is what I do. But now there are inmates that could get the job, do it on a professional basis, and then also do a hustle on the side. Right. So I waited till he left and then I applied for the job. But me and him was in the bathroom together.

I was probably cutting more hair than him. So explain that. What's like the process of getting a prison haircut? How much are people paying? Where are they going to get the haircut? The whole process with that is basically you go to whatever barber you want. Well, I could care less about their process. This was my process. I got a book, a composite notebook.

And you put your name and your bunk in it. And that's how I set your appointment. I come in there from Monday to Saturday. I go in the bathroom with my clippers from the time in between, like just the daytime where we in the dorms. And I'll cut your hair then. And sometimes we go to rec, come back. I do it again, like while we're in the dorm.

I go to Job Center, I go to lunch, and I go to rec. In between them, I'm not cutting hair. And once I'm done cutting hair for the day, you're not getting me off my bunk. I'm not coming to leave me the fuck alone. You know what I mean? But again, you put your name in the book and your bunk, and I'll come get you. Now, my pricing back then, a dollar in jail was a lot.

So, you know, you want your haircut, I need a dollar a head. And how are they paying what that? All commissary. All commissary. Yeah. And I don't want no bullshit. I don't want no cosmetics. I want all food. You know how that shit go. I want all food. Now, how do you convert that into physical money though? You don't. So there was no set selling it to people to put money on your books or anything like that. So you were just living off of that. Yeah, that was my hustle. So I didn't care like that.

Well, my physical money, if it gets sent to my books, now I can do what I want to do. If I wanted to, I could send that home. Now, a dollar a haircut's cheap. That's cheap as fuck. I was paying...

you know, like you'd go to the barbershop and it was supposed to be free, like the legit barbershop. And this thing was legit. It's like, look like a street barbershop. They had the magazines and stuff, but you were expected to tip the guy like five or six bucks, which was like five or six mackerels. And then, which is a dollar a piece. And then if you're getting a unit haircut, that would be like 10 bucks for a haircut, 10 mackerels. So for a dollar, that's the cheapest haircut. That's because it was state and because like,

And truthfully, at that time, I got to get people to trust me anyway. Like, you don't know that I'm really a barber. You got to trust what I'm telling you. So I'm doing this shit for a dollar. I don't care. Come on, let's go. And I'm not even looking at it as I'm working. I'm looking at this more as me getting my practice for when I get home and really get to my own barbershop. Now, did you have rules like you wouldn't cut certain people's hair, like if they were a sex offender or a rat or anything like that? Hell yeah. Yeah.

And how would you know? Are you checking paperwork? What do you do? See, in the States, people ain't really checking paperwork like that. Like you get whispers now. Somebody pressure you and you show the paperwork. Yeah, but it's not nothing like the feds. How you got to come with your paperwork shown and all that. They ain't doing all that.

But you just basically, it's he say, she say. Or like me, if I really had a problem, I'd ask you like, yo, bro, what kind of case you got? But you had certain rules. Yeah, like if you touched on any kids or you told you can't get your hair cut with me. And where would those people go? Were they able to get a haircut by anyone? They better go to the next barber. You got so many people in the States, it's different. Like you got people that think they know what they're doing. So you might have six, seven barbers in the dorm.

Interesting. You get what I'm saying? So like people can still get a haircut. You're just not going to get your hair cut by me. Now you spent every day just cutting hair. No, Sundays I didn't cut hair. So what'd you do on Sundays? Sunday I relaxed. You relaxed? Read books and did what I do. What kind of books are you reading in prison?

Let me see. I'm reading like investment books, different self-help books, just mental books, spiritual books. And this is all because of like your whole life experience, realizing you didn't want to continue down that path. Yeah, like it was over. After that, I knew it was over. Like I'm not doing that shit no more. How did you know books was the answer to like what you wanted to go to? Like why did you go to books? I went to books because I watched how...

Everybody that was watching TV was moving. Like, these motherfuckers lost. Like, I don't want to be lost. I didn't buy a TV. I had the money to buy a TV. I didn't buy a TV. I just want books. So I would talk to different people that I know was on the same type of time as me. Like, a lot of the older heads had books. And they wouldn't let just anybody read their books. That's how you off rip. If you're going to read this book and you don't apply it to your life, you can't.

I'm not giving you no more books. And there's a lot of guys in prison that do do their time, their bid by watching TV and whatnot. Everyone does it a different way. That's lazy as fuck. But I mean, you're watching TV, bro. But if you think about it in hindsight, that first bid, you weren't on that type of time, you know, you evolved as a man and learn from that. So it's interesting to see like how you grew in that period of time. Cause that's almost like 10 years apart that you grew into that.

Now your kids, are they coming to visit you in prison? No, that's one thing I didn't allow. And how hard was that to be away from your children for, you know, almost three years? That shit was hard as hell, but I would call them every day. You know what I mean? They were still young. They were still young. Did they ever find out where you were at that time? At that time? No. Cause I told my kids I was at school. At school? Yeah. Like my two, I had two. At that time I had three. I had a

My son was what? Duke was seven. Yeah, Duke was six, seven. And Mariah and Nolan both were two. So the two-year-olds didn't really understand too much, so it was easier with them. My oldest son, I just told him I was at school.

- But now I'm sure they know that you are in prison. - Yeah, now I have an open book with my kids. I tell my kids everything. 'Cause I don't want them to go through the shit that I went through. I want them to know that I went through all that shit already. You don't gotta do nothing that I ever did. You don't gotta do nothing that you don't need to do. You get what I'm saying? I already went through that. My kids don't mind telling me whatever they got going on. Me and my kids have the best relationship. - What was that conversation like with them when you told them that their father went to prison?

They were like, for real, daddy? I'm like, yeah. So what happened? I'm like, look, we're not going to get that deep into it. But daddy got this and I wasn't supposed to do. And I end up going to jail. Now, my oldest son, he's 16 now. He knows everything.

Now, are you trying to raise them in a different environment than the environment that you were raised in? Yeah, they all live in different environments. They live in Vernon and Manchester and stuff like that. They don't live nowhere near Hartford. And you want them to go to college or what's your plan? I honestly want them to do what they feel they need to do. Like, I'm not pressing college. I don't really believe college can make or break you. You feel what I'm saying? College is really just another bill. If you don't have the dream of knowing what you're going to do with college, you're

You're going to end up going to college just to work for somebody else. When you can actually not go to college, know what you really want, open a business, and still have somebody that went to college come work for you. Absolutely. But you also want to make sure they stay on that right track too. Yeah, definitely. It's definitely keeping their school and their grades up. Now, you get the nickname Dice in prison. No, I got that way before jail. Oh, you got it way before jail. But they were calling you Dice in prison. Yeah. How do you get the nickname? For sure.

From shooting dice. Okay. What kind of dice were you shooting? Three dice. Cee-lo. Cee-lo. Yes. So can you tell the viewer what Cee-lo is, how it's played? Of course. Now, viewers, if y'all don't know how to play Cee-lo, something's wrong. But you take three dice, right? And you got to get two numbers and a number. That odd number is yours. So if I roll four, four, five, my number is a five. So if I'm the bank, you have to beat my five.

So if you shake the dash and roll them and you roll a three, three, six, you win because that last number is bigger than mine. Now, if you roll a four, five, six, which is the name of the game, that's CeeLo. You win automatically. If you roll three all the same, that's trips. You win automatically. Now, if you roll a one,

You roll a one, two, three, you lose. And then that's just, it's just that simple. Yeah. Like when I first talked to you the first time on the phone, my friend connected me to you and said Dice. And I never registered why your nickname was Dice. And I asked you, I was like, why, why do they call you Dice? And when you said CeeLo, that I was, I was like, dude, I got to get this guy in the show because that was my game. I never knew what it was going into prison. And I was this white boy shooting.

shooting dice 21 years old shooting dice with these guys that were like down for years and I was you know taking their money we'd be in like this little hallway and I was addicted to it we would play that shit all night long like the first like six months of my time I was just shooting dice we'd go in there with a laundry bag and like I had some game to it because you're all sitting there you know picture this white kid shooting dice that looks like a you know like this little dirty kid

And he's hustling them. I would take the bank because we would play it like if the bank got wiped out, you had the option to put more money in or become the bank. Or if you got four, five, six, I think you had an option to take over the bank. You could take the bank. Yeah, but everyone had different house rules or whatever. Like a push would pay or didn't pay. So once I got the bank, I was just taking all of them. And it got so bad, I had to start hiring bouncers.

Wanted to stay outside the door. Wanted to collect the money. Because dudes would stay up late and scope me out in the hallway to try to jump me or whatever because they wanted the money. Because it's a lot, books of stains, macros. But man, that game was the funniest shit. And then even when I got out of prison, I would put like...

by a group of friends onto it who have never been to prison before, were never about that life. And we would sit there playing dice in our apartment and I'd be hustling them, you know, for a dollar that it got the $5. And then we were doing $100 games. Yeah, yeah.

It is such a fun game. That's the best game ever. That's how I got my name, bro. I promise you. That's the best game ever. Once I learned, I was addicted. Yeah, when I got to the prison camp, they were playing craps. And I was like, I don't like this shit. I want to play CeeLo. So I start showing everyone CeeLo. I don't know. I never got into craps. I think casinos should run.

Yo, they actually, Mohegan's, Foxwoods did it one year, like a Father's Day special. A CeeLo thing. A CeeLo game. And I was pissed off because my brother got married that day and I was in the wedding. I was mad as hell because that was like free money up there.

But now like in the hood or the ghetto or whatever, that's a common game. Yeah, that's the most common game. That's like a stoop game like you're on. Yeah, you do that any given time. Like my cousin, rest in peace, Cooley, we just had a dice game at his funeral. How intense does that get? Like it's very heated? Yeah, it all depends on who you with. Like me, I don't indulge in a game unless I really know who people are. You know what I mean? If I don't know you, I'm not about to play with you. Because it could go bad. It goes left all the time.

All the time.

- That's really interesting. So you were playing, you learned dice at a young age. - Yeah, I learned how to play that shit like at 12. - And you guys were just playing for fun as a 12 year old? - Hell no, we was playing for money. I used to play for my lunch money. - And so in prison, what are you guys gambling with? - Oh, for commissary. - It's commissary and you guys would just roll the dice and? - Yeah, we in the cut. You know how it is, man. Macros a dollar, place your bet. What's in the bank? We here, we got soups, three soups a dollar, let's go. We about to make it happen. - Are the guards giving you guys a hard time?

Hell yeah. So you got to wait till you got the good ones working because you got something that's cool. Now mind you, we in state. So like a lot of these CEOs are all people from around the way anyway. So you got something that's coming to work and they cool with you. They like, oh, go ahead. Y'all hurry up.

They'll let you know, yo, the lieutenant about to come around. Don't put the game away. That's how it was for us. Yeah, like you got something that's cool and then you got something that's like, what are you guys doing? You better not be doing that over here. It was some CEOs that used to give me a hard time about cutting hair. If you're not the hired barber, you can't cut hair, man. Shut up. Now back to the barber aspect, you were able to buy clippers? Yeah, you buy the beard trimmers off of commissary. Everyone is able to buy beard trimmers.

Beard trim is off the commissary because you could take care of yourself if you want to so what I did was just I bought a pair for myself and I bought a pair that I could cut now How would you guys get a razor because I know in the feds you would take the state-issued razors They'd give and you would pop it out So it's just the blade and you would use that to do like the fine part see like I can't grow facial hair really So I don't have the nice lines or that In the state you got

The state razors or whatever that they hand out. Are you guys popping those open? If you pop that blade out, your ass going to the box. They ain't having that in state. That razor better come back looking the same way I gave it to you or your ass going to the box. And you got to have a razor card. You have to...

I don't know if they hand them out for free or you buy a razor card. I never really used the razors in jail. So you were just using the clippers for haircuts? Yeah, beard trimmers, and that's it, yeah. And how advanced can you get with haircuts and stuff with just using clippers? Yo, you find a way, man.

Like you just find a way like different angles on how to hold it and actually not putting the guard all the way down just so you could get a certain wave with the wave cut. It's all type of shit. Then with me, I know how to adjust the blade. You pop that shit open, take a little pin. You take a fingernail clipper, take the back part of the pin, put that shit right there to raise the blade. Like I know how to do all that shit.

Interesting. Do you ever play spades at all in prison? Yes. That's what I just do. Like, sometimes on Sundays, that's what I would do. If I ain't reading my books and stuff, I might go play cards. You know, like, all my friends play poker. This and that. I learned poker a little bit. But, like, I want to play spades. Like, you guys have a spades tournament. Make sure you invite me. Yeah, I play spades a few times. Like, my first bet, I remember I seen one of my boys, man. We joined the spades tournament, and we was as bad as them.

And we end up playing with these kids, these white boys, man. And like, we sitting at a table, he talking. And like, mind you, he never talks. So he's talking with his partner. So I'm like, yo, so what y'all, what you did to come in here? And he started talking about how he killed his mother, his stepfather, his sister. I'm looking at him, I'm like, what the fuck? And I'm like, bro, we got all this fake ass money on the table. We ain't got no commie for this motherfucker. We got him with this shit. Man, I cheated my ass off on that shit. I cut, I might've cut like three books with a four spade.

I'm collecting the books and I'm scheming off the top. Every time I collect the books, I was scared as shit. I said, man, he gonna kill us in here, man. I remember the first time I was taught spades in prison, I got hustled after. So they taught me spades and then another person played against me and I got hustled the shit out of. I put money up on it and they got me good because they pretended like they sucked. And then I got hustled because I was the white kid that just learned spades.

And then I got good at it and I started to do the hustling because the last person they expected to be good at spades was me. So I had a good partner. We'd go around, we'd just hustle the shit out of people. And it was fun. It was a lot of fun. So you're familiar with the movie White Man Can't Jump?

- I've heard of it, I never watched it. - Oh, you gotta watch it. That's what you pull, that's what he pull. You know what I'm talking about, that's what he pull. - Everyone comes on the show like dropping movie names and I don't know them. Someone was like, you gotta sit down and start watching these movies. I gotta have like a collection. I just watched like "Casino" for the first time in prison.

like a few years ago. And everyone was like, dude, you got to see this movie. And I've watched it a few times since. But like all the oldies, I've never seen. Dude, I was watching like Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings. How old are you? I'm 27. Okay. How old are you now? I'm 30. I'm 36. 36. So you got some years. It makes sense. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. You all right. You get a pass. So at what point in your prison sentence do you realize that you want to turn...

Your skills of being a barber into a legit business. I knew that before I even went in because I was already cut here before I went back to jail. You just didn't have the resources to make it happen? Like, yeah, I just didn't have...

the brains to do it. You know what I mean? But going to prison the second bit gave you that. Right, that's what gave me all the insight that I need. I actually sat down away from the world and really just made a plan. So you get out, what happens? I get out, I go to the halfway house. What's a halfway house like in Connecticut? Because I was in that Waterbury one and that was the worst experience of my life. Like if I ever have to go back, God forbid-

I'm not doing halfway house time. Yeah, I said the same shit. I said, if I go back to jail, I'm staying my whole sentence. Y'all can't send me back to no halfway house. A halfway house is really supposed to be a work release program. And this motherfucking place pissed me off. I'm sorry. Excuse my French. When I got home, before I even went to jail, I finished hair school.

And I never applied for my license because I knew I had to go for I had to go turn myself in. I passed the test and everything. Soon as I got home, that was the first thing I did was apply for my license. So now I got my barber license. I waited for everything to come. I'm in a work release program. I have a career in. I already have somewhere to cut hair. They told me I can't work there because I don't have pay stubs. I said, that makes no sense. This is a work release program.

As long as I could do a 1099 or whatever to show you that I'm working, why can't I work here? They told me, no, you have to go find a job. I was supposed to be in a halfway house for 90 days. I ended up being in it for seven months. I feel like it's designed to make you fail. Those halfway houses, they only care about money. They're getting the money per bed and that's it. The staff are incompetent. A lot of them are interns that just got out of college. Right.

And I've seen so many guys that get sent back like the marshals are coming to pick them up or whatever. Yeah. They send me one morning. I told them to send me back. I've seen guys do that, too. They literally say send me back. But she was like, just calm down. You know, if I can calm down, send me back. I'm sick of this. I got me right here. I can't do what I what I worked hard to do. This is what I do. So what I would do is I would cut here while I'm in the halfway house.

They told me I couldn't charge. Man, go put my money on my bed or I'm coming to see you for my money. I'm cutting here and here. And what I would do is they make you do what, like a job search. So we have to fill out where we're going for our job search for the week. And I will put down a bunch of different places saying that this is the places I'm going. And I will get out to Halfway House and go to the barbershop.

And you know what the frustration is? It's like you're trying to get your life together. You're trying to genuinely do good, not do that. And it just, that structure of the system pushes people into doing bullshit. Something wrong. Yeah, something wrong. Because everything I did was wrong. I'm telling you, I'm going one place, but I'm going somewhere else. And you were just ultimately trying to do the right thing. Going to work. But you had to maneuver it. I did the same thing too, to get my license back, to be able to drive. There was all this paperwork, all these hoops.

And I found myself, like I came out of prison saying like, I'm not going to lie. Like, cause that's what got me into trouble. I want to do this and that. And I found out very quickly, like I had to do things I didn't want to do just to set myself up to succeed. Right. Because the system is just like against you. And no, it definitely is. Like I have, I have my driver's license. I had a car. I couldn't drive. I had to take the bus. It was to the point one time where I was so frustrated.

I was so close to being late that I parked my car around the corner from the halfway house and ran to the halfway house. That shit was crazy, bro. Yeah, because if you're late by a couple minutes and they schooled you and then the next time they let you out when you have work, they almost didn't let me go to a job interview. And I said, listen, I will go back to prison if I cannot go to this job interview. Right. Like, it's just nuts. And the food is awful, too. Small portions. It's literally worse than prison. Yeah, it was definitely worse than prison, especially with you being that close to home.

Like I was on Blue Hills Avenue. Like it's like home. It's like right there. Now you get out of the halfway house. You're you're finally free. I'm guessing you're on like probation or parole or whatever. I was on I was on probation when I got out of the halfway house. And are you what kind of challenges are you facing now still as a felon? Are you looking for other work or are you able to. Man once I got out of the halfway house it was murder she wrote. I ain't give a fuck about no jobs no none of that. It was I already got my plan because I already had a spot in a barbershop.

I went straight to going to work. I didn't want to talk to nobody. I went straight to work for two years straight. I don't want to do nothing. I miss birthday parties. I missed everything. Are people from your old lifestyle trying to get back in touch with you? Yeah, we all cool. We all drinking and chilling, but I'm dubbing this. I don't want to chill. I'm going to work and I'm going home with my kids and then I'm going back to work in the morning. Is there any temptation to get back into that old lifestyle at that point or is it just like-

This was your wake up call. You don't want to do that. It was too easy at this point. Now, like everything, like honestly, I manifested it. You get what I'm saying? I used to, in jail, I used to meditate in the morning. I write down my plans. All I did was,

All it took was for me to really just get the fuck out of jail and already knew everything that you see today. I already had planned when I was sitting on my bunk. But why do you think some people struggle with that and aren't able to accomplish that? Is it a mental thing? Is it a circumstance thing? A lot of times it is mental because your mind got to be stronger than your situation. You feel what I'm saying? But a lot of times it's circumstances and mental. If both of those are wrong, then you fucked because you're going to fall into what you got around you.

And it's hard to subject yourself away from what's really around you. So you got to be strong mental. Like the same way I was in jail, I didn't want to chill and talk to certain people. I'd be on my bunk or I'd be cutting hair. I did the same thing at home. I don't want to talk to y'all.

And the ones I do talk to is because I really fuck with y'all. We could get drunk and chill, but guess what? I'm going in the house after that. I don't want to be outside with y'all. But, you know, for certain people, that takes a lot of restraint to associate with people that you grew up with, you know, to say, hey, I'm not on this type of time anymore. But it also becomes easier, too, when you're dealing with people that wasn't there for you while you was in jail. So if you wasn't there for me in my hardest times, why the fuck am I to come fuck with you now? Leave me alone.

How hard was it to reintegrate back with your family after that second bid? Your kids, your baby mamas, your parents? It was easy, man. They woke me with open arms. They just was happy I was back. And I told them I got a mission. And they knew what time it was. I love that. They were going on his mission. They know what time it is. They're my biggest supporters. They know what time it is. Let's go. We got a mission. What about probation? How are they treating you? Probation was...

Honestly, probation was easy as hell because I ended up having one of my old POs from my lawn. I had like four different POs because they were switched. But I ended up bumping into one of my old POs and she was like, oh, you back? I said, yeah. I said, I'm on a whole nother type of time, lady. I said, look, come to the barbershop. You come see it. This is where I work at. Boom. Boom.

I had her for a couple years and then I ended up opening my own barbershop. They switched my PR. I brought her in like, look, this is my barbershop. I own this shit. This is what I do. How often do you want to see me? She said, just come once a month. Heard you. And I just left it at that. What are some challenges opening up a business as a felon? There's no real challenges, bro. They don't do background checks on you and shit like that. I'm going straight. I'm going to rent this place out. I'm going to go to the town. The only thing I could see the challenge might have been is my image.

And what was your image at the time? The way I look now. So they look at me like this young black man, fancy black man. Who is he? You know what? He looks like a drug dealer. I don't want to deal with him. So you could deal with that type of shit, but that's it. And how does that make you feel when you're faced with that? No, I just laugh. Literally. I got something for y'all. You don't want to fuck with me now, I'm going to show you. I'm going to make you want to fuck with me. I promise you. And then I'm not going to fuck with you. Do you think a lot of people put you in that category?

Not no more. Now, is it the people that look at you, are they white guys? Yeah, that's what I was talking about, white people. So it's just white people that look at you like that? No, I'm quite sure black people look at me like that too, but they understand the story behind it. And do you think that's based solely on racism or just stereotyping? Stereotypical shit. It's not racism. That's just stereotypical shit. Interesting. And did you ever try to like...

be someone you weren't to try to fit you just you knew who you were on the inside and you wanted to keep rocking with us. - Yeah, I could care less about all that. Like no funny shit if y'all treated me a certain way, I wouldn't care. I'm not gonna change nothing about none of this. If y'all would've tried to tell me you gotta come on this show and you gotta dress like this, I just wouldn't do the show. - No, we would never do that for you. - No, I know you wouldn't. I'm just giving an example like that. I don't need doing that, I'm me.

Now, back to the prison thing for a second. Did guards look at you differently the second time around? I know you were on a straight and narrow type of time, but were you treated like you were a hoodlum or a gangster or anything like that in prison? Yeah, they always did. That's how they treat almost everybody in there. You know what I mean? They didn't give a fuck that I was the barber unless they knew me. And it was different for me because...

A lot of the CEOs and actually one of the captains was my actual on the street client. So when he seen me, I'm in the lunch hall and he see me like, like, what up, man?

I said, look, man, make sure I'm good in here, man. Make sure these police don't be bothering me, man. He like, what? I said, look, man, I need this. I need this and I need this, man. Make sure they don't fuck with me when I go back in there. See, that's called a conflict of interest and they throw you in the shoe for that. Yeah, see, look. But see, he was a captain, so it was different. Like, if it was just a CO that I said that to, I'm quite sure the higher ups would have fucked with him. But he already had pulled. He had been doing it for years. So he like, look, that's my barber when he home. Like, I ain't...

So you've been out of prison for what, five, six years now? Maybe longer? Nope. I got home at 15. We going eight years. Eight years. And you've never had any run-ins with the law since?

no not no real run-ins not no what not no real run-ins what do you want we're talking yeah i got pulled over a couple times yeah that's that's that's right but you stayed away like you never went back no to the lifestyle no what about drug use did you ever have any issues with drug no i don't smoke weed i drink liquor you drink liquor no other drugs either no fuck that that's not for me even though you were exposed to that at that young age yeah i've seen it i've seen

Growing up, I seen uncles that used to get high and stuff like that. So that shit never really enticed me. That shit was corny to me. So what's a typical day life for you now, between being a dad, managing your businesses, as a barber, as a business owner? What's that like for you? You wake up in the morning.

I call my kids. I go to work. I set up my schedule, do what I got to do, and I go home. Do you have full custody of your kids? No, I do not. I have basically joint custody with all my kids' mothers. Okay. And what are some of the challenges of being a single dad? The challenges with that is really just trying to please everybody. Because I have six kids with five different women.

So it's really trying to please each and every person to make life easier for all of us. And it's just almost impossible. So you got this one happy, this one mad. This one happy, this one mad. And it's just, it's a roller coaster. But again, it's mind over matter.

I feel like you're in a very good, clear headspace now. Yeah, definitely. You're very dedicated to what you want to do. Definitely. What's the long-term plan? Do you want to open up more? Or how many barbershops do you own now? Right now, I only own one. I had two. I sold the other one to my partner. I owned one. I do plan on opening another one, but that's later on. It's just more... Right now, the plan is really strictly investments. Okay. And what type of investments? Like real estate and...

Basically real estate, what's that shit called? I'm going to brain fart right now 'cause my brother just put me into the shit, the stocks and shit. - And this is all funded from the barbershop? - Yeah. - And the barbershop, how many hours are you putting a week into this?

Oh, shit. I go in the barbershop 9 o'clock in the morning. I probably won't leave until like 8, 9 at night. And how does... I've always been curious. How does a barbershop work? Like, does each person that's working there work for you or do they work for themselves and then they're paying for a chair? They work for themselves and they're paying me. And so they rent a chair for you. They rent a chair for me, yeah. And you don't get a cut of anything. No, I get that boofer and stuff. That's it. That's my cut right there. So it's guaranteed. Unless you...

Say if you don't have the clientele, like me, my barbershop, I give out shots. I don't care who you are. If you dedicated with doing hair or cutting hair, I'll give you the opportunity to come work. If your clientele is not there yet, we're going to promote, try to get you what you can get. And what I would do is work a percentage if you don't make chair rentals. Once you're able to consistently make chair rentals, then it's flat out you're paying chair rentals from that point on. Are you trying to find like...

people that are like the younger version of yourself that you could steer them away from from that you know if they're in a bad area or whatever they're what whatever path they're going down that you can move them away from that lifestyle yeah i feel like you have the power right now that's always been the goal man and i had one i had one

man you had one what happened he died in a car accident i'm sorry to hear that man that that was that was that was little me he he had everything too everything which i'm looking for that again like you know i mean but it's hard to find people that actually want to do it man do you think that's what keeps you driven and motivated like when things like that happen definitely definitely

Life's short, man. It is. It's very short. You got to just, you know, you have to keep pushing. And if you can inspire just like one person, you know, to do that right thing, then it's a success. Inspiration lasts a lifetime, man. I swear, if you can inspire one person and he can inspire the next person, then that shit just keep going, bro. Then I'll do my job. So what's your message to someone, someone that's watching this, someone that's a single dad, someone that grew up in a bad area? Because, you know, a lot of the people we've interviewed, like,

They had decent family lives. Like they had all the opportunities in the world and they went off on their own to screw it up. No, I could say I had a lot of opportunities and still fucked it up. You know what I mean? But I would truthfully say my message to somebody that's a single father, bro, find your way and stick to the plan. It's just that simple. You're going to have life is going to put everything in your way. Like things don't happen to you. They happen for you.

There's no accidents in this world. I didn't go to jail by accident. That was meant for me. I was supposed to go through that for me to be the person that I am today. So even with you, your situation, you probably wouldn't have a show called Locked In if you never went to jail.

Do you get what I'm saying? So that was your destiny. That's what was happening for you. Things happened for you. So I truthfully say, don't get discouraged with nothing. It's nothing like, it sound like I'm preaching, but it's nothing on your plate that you can't eat. I mean, I look at it now, I think it's crazy. And we were talking about this earlier. You just don't know what life's going to throw at you. And what matters is what you do with what's thrown at you. Like you can either fold over and cower. Like you could have easily said,

this is life of crime. This is my life. This is what was handed to me. I'm going to keep doing this. But you got in that mindset to get out there, read the books, put in the work, do the knowledge to turn it around. You know, that's what people need to hear about. There's not a lot of that out there knowing that there's another path that you could choose. It doesn't have to get extremely bad before it gets better. Right. One thing I could say is another message for everybody, period, not just...

people going through shit is your perception. Your perception on life is everything. How you see shit is everything. And that's what can change. Every negative situation got the potential to be positive. So it's like jail, I don't look at that like a negative place. It's all about how you look at it. Like I told you, when I was in jail, that was my barbershop. That was my place. That was my everything. I didn't care about who else was in there. That was my perception of it. Now you got people next to me

moping and sad stressing they on the phone yelling at their girl because she somebody like you feel what i'm saying your perception of jay was all wrong because you too busy focus on what's going on out there you gotta your perception is just you and life how you see like you could see everything in this room completely different from how i see it and that's your all perception like you get what i'm saying like i look at this place like this is probably the most professional podcast i've ever seen in my life

I get it. And I can think that it's not up to my standards. I just you don't know. Right. And I think that, you know, it's important you treat everyone as equals the same way you give everyone a chance, no matter what their upbringing is or what their background is. Like everyone deserves two chances, really. Like you get your first chance at life. And then if you make a mistake, you get like that second chance. And, you know, give them the benefit of the doubt.

Just because someone has a criminal record or anything, whatever happened to them, a trial, a tribulation, let them redeem themselves from that. So I'm glad you were able to do that. I don't even feel like that you need two chances. I feel like you could give somebody a million and one chances. It only take that one time to change. That's true. And hopefully it's on the second one, though, so you don't have to go to prison a few times.

But, you know, Dice Man, thank you for coming on the show. It was great talking with you today. You know, continue to grow those barbershops and like being that inspiration. Super glad you came to share your story today. All right. All right. Well, thank you, man. First, before this shit is over, I want to shout out Big Steve, too, man. For being a single parent, I mean, a single father show. That's actually coming soon, too. We're going to do all the casting. Well, not the casting, but the filming in June.

So that's a lot going on too. That's a new TV show you're working on? Yeah, a new TV show that we're working on right now. Yeah, with Preventive Vision. And you're one of the guests on? Yeah, I'm one of the cast members on there. So we got that coming up.

Getting a little acting career going on. Yeah, I'm going to try to get that going. Let's see what that's about. Okay, barber, actor, renaissance man. It's really going to be just really my life though. So it's not really acting. Like, you know what I mean? That's awesome, man. Well, I wish you the best of the luck of the show and, you know, we'll definitely get you on again when you're famous. Don't forget about us little guys. No, I won't. Actually, before I leave, I might want to shoot dice with you. I'm retired from gambling. Ha, ha, ha.