How I Got Scammed for $700K by Fyre Festival’s Billy McFarland in Prison | Jonathon Taylor
01:32:34 Share

What makes a great pair of glasses? At Warby Parker, it's all the invisible extras without the extra cost. Their designer quality frames start at $95, including prescription lenses, plus scratch-resistant, smudge-resistant, and anti-reflective coatings, and UV protection, and free adjustments for life.

To find your next pair of glasses, sunglasses, or contact lenses, or to find the Warby Parker store nearest you, head over to warbyparker.com. That's warbyparker.com. The NBA playoffs are here, and I'm getting my bets in on FanDuel. Talk to me, Chuck GPT. What do you know? All sorts of interesting stuff. Even Charles Barkley's greatest fear. Hey, nobody needs to know that. New customers bet $5 to get 200 in bonus bets if you win FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook.

21 plus and present in Illinois. Must be first online real money wager. $5 deposit required. Bonus issued is non-withdrawable bonus pass that expires seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See full terms at fanduel.com slash sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. John, welcome to Locked In. Thanks. Shout out to Spencer for connecting us. Yeah. He spoke very highly of you and your story and here we are. He's a great guy.

So where did you grow up? Long Island. Born in Brooklyn. Grew up between Long Island, you know, the beach communities out there, and running around New York City as early as I could get on a train. What did your parents do for work? My father was a brain surgeon. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting to grow up with. And my mother was an RN and PhD, and she worked in the healthcare industry as well. Did you have siblings? I do. Well, yeah.

I have a sister who's a doctor, and I had a brother. He killed himself in July. I'm sorry for your loss, man. So, yeah, that was pretty rough. Now, growing up in Long Island, with what your parents did for work, I'm assuming you guys grew up with money. Would that be a fair assumption? Yeah, that's kind of funny. Yeah, so you wonder how you end up with a three-and-a-half-year prison sentence. There's some tissues right there. Yeah.

for that, you know, it's a good question. So yeah, we grew up on the North Shore of Long Island where everybody wants to be and we grew up on the water and you know, life was not bad. Although it wasn't what you would think having a brain surgeon. So, and my relationship with my father was just shitty from day one. There's no other way to put it. So I'm sure that contributed to the rebellious nature that I still have. Was he strict?

Too strict. Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that this whole prison experience kind of rewired the way I think. And one of the things is if you want your children, parents make a couple of mistakes. One is they don't appear as a unified front. You're going to disagree with your wife or husband. It's going to happen. But in front of the kids, you want to be a unified front and you argue behind closed doors.

Similar to a business situation. And the other is if you want your kids to do something, forbid it. Tell them they can't. And they'll run for it. You know, it's the way it goes. It's not rational, obviously, but we're not always rational. We're humans. That's actually a good concept. Yeah. So how would you describe yourself as a kid? I know you said rebellious, but. Yeah, so that's interesting. So, you know, when I was a kid, I was out of shape.

Picked on a little bit, maybe a little more than a little bit. So I was pretty angry as a kid growing up. So, you know, it really, I let that anger define me for such a long time that it obviously created problems. And, you know, eventually I learned, I met a guy named Frank, fantastic guy, we still speak today.

And he was kind of like my golem, almost. So I learned how to slowly over time work within that. So if somebody was to pick on me after Frank, they'd have a bad day, which was nice. And then I didn't really know or understand what it meant to be related to having a father as a brain surgeon and living on the water in a nice neighborhood and

Things like that. I just didn't get it. I don't even think I really understood the concept of money until I went to high school. You just didn't know. We were oblivious. So, you know, things were good from a certain perspective, but it was a lot more challenging and difficult.

then you would see. So, you know, the grass, people say the grass is, you know, never greener on the other side. It's not. It's just not. Were all your friends and classmates people that came from money as well? For the most part, sure. So there wasn't like you could even compare it to anything? Right. There was no frame of reference. That's exactly right. So to you, it was just a normal lifestyle what you guys had?

For the most part at that time? Yeah. I mean, we were going to the BVIs as kids, you know, all the things that, you know, people do. And like my friend Andrea, who's here, you know, she grew up doing the same thing. It was just, it's what we did. We didn't really have a frame of reference at all. Now, were you angry because you were picked on or angry because of the way you were being raised? A little bit of both. And there was really nobody I could go to as a kid. And so I felt kind of betrayed, you know?

growing up. So that was fascinating. How was your relationship with your mother? Since my father died, it's been amazing. So that's been really good, and it's weird. And I think my mother and father stayed together for the kids, which was taxing on her. But growing up, you didn't have a close relationship? Growing up, it was difficult because my father was so overbearing. Hmm.

and just so authoritative. And, you know, he had, he was an interesting guy because on one hand, if you were a stranger and you needed brain surgery, obviously life is terrible. And if you couldn't afford it or there was a problem, my father would just do it and throw the bill out. So on one hand, he was a great guy. To his family, he was cruel. And he grew up with nothing in Canada. So he had to overcome a lot. But I think he let that kind of...

That desperation kind of, you know, focus or it kind of presented as being much, much too overbearing on all the kids and on the oldest. So I took the brunt of it. Apparently that's a thing. Were you guys raised very religiously? Yeah.

In attempt, our family is just whacked. We have Gentiles and Jews, you know, all over the place. I've made my choice young, and he certainly didn't like that. There was a lot of family drama there that I still, to this day, don't understand. So, you know, today I used to fill in, you know, so I wouldn't keep kosher because I'm just not disciplined enough. Right.

Did you ever think, looking back on it, that how important your religion would be in prison? How popular that is? No. And it was an incredible education. So that's a really good question. I've always felt and leaned a certain way, but that was grossly exacerbated in prison. And...

you know, a rabbi that I met there, really helped further that. And he was an amazing guy. He was probably the only guy I've met in prison that was there for the right reasons, as opposed to, you know, the rest of us who in one way or another screwed up. Now you can argue some people have been overcharged, like in the case of Ross Albright. You can argue that some of the sentences for what they did, like some of these marijuana sentences for 15 and 20 years are a joke.

And two friends of mine from prison were serving double-digit sentences, they're both out now, for marijuana. It's crazy. It's insane. And now, I'm not a fan of legalizing marijuana, personally, because I think...

After your brain, as we talked about earlier, stops developing, using marijuana is one thing. But when it's developing and you're 15 and 16, it can lead to very long-term problems that, you know, manifest themselves 10, 20 years down the road. So you think there's no effects after the brain's fully developed? I don't think there's no effects. I think it becomes a lot less dangerous. Okay.

I do. And that's my opinion. And lots of friends of mine use edibles and smoke and stuff like that. I just choose not to. They could also legalize it to a certain age too, like how they've sat. I agree. Like alcohol. Yeah. You know, alcohol causes a lot of problems in society, you know, more than weed.

So, yeah, that's another option. And, you know, that's fine. Did you have any certain aspirations as a kid that you wanted to be when you grew up? Or were you expected to follow down, you know, your father's path? Or what did that look like? No, that's an interesting question. So, no. I watched the medical industry kind of take a sharp turn. And...

I don't know why anyone would want to be a doctor today. People complain about health care. That's one argument. And the other is doctors are terrible. Well, you know, you can't have your cake and eat it too. So, no, we were never pressured to go into medicine, which is kind of cool, I think. That was actually smart. What did you want to do? I always wanted to get into finance. Really? Yeah. What interested you about finance? So, yeah.

When I was a kid, I read a book called Den of Thieves and Barbarians at the Gate. And these people just fascinated me. And there was one particular person that fascinated me a lot. And he passed away several years ago. But he was a complete maverick. And he was kind of the only guy you couldn't define. So I said, I want to be that guy. And as chance would have it,

I ended up doing some work for him 20, 25 years later. Wow. Yeah. That full circle moment. Yeah. A friend of mine from Israel introduced me to him and I know his family and they're great. Now, were you getting into any legal trouble at high school at all? Stupid shit. You know, the typical stuff. Yeah.

We had a construction company in my 20s with a partner who brought on a third partner who was not good. And he, for the most part, destroyed that whole business, which was too bad. I grew up working for construction companies and other things. I actually started working pretty young just to keep busy. You always had a work ethic? Yeah. I love working. Yeah.

And I just, I like hearing about businesses. I don't care what it is. It can be the hot dogs guy, you know, in Manhattan. It can be a pretzel guy. I just don't care. I just want to hear about it. Cause it's all the same to me. It's just as interesting, a multinational or a vendor. It's fascinating.

Now, did you end up going to college? Out in Minnesota. Minnesota? Minnesota. How does a Long Island guy go to Minnesota? Yeah, I was really partying too much, so it was a place to go. Okay. I bounced around Long Island for a little bit and ended up out there. What school? U. Minnesota, University of Minnesota? University of Minnesota, yeah. I've actually never heard of it.

Is it a good school? You know, it's – I regret – I really deeply regret not working harder in school and not going to Princeton or Dartmouth or Harvard or Yale because I grew up in an environment where lots of people did, and I certainly had the opportunity. Do you think it would have made a difference of where your success is at today? So –

I'm friendly with a lot of guys that, you know, people that went to all of these universities. So the difference is this. Today with technology, the education that Harvard offers, you can get anywhere online. You can get it in your office next door. If you want it, it's there. What you don't get is the people.

So the reason to go to a top school is to develop a Rolodex, not that we use Rolodexes anymore, but it's to develop a Rolodex. Basically, it's where the kings and queens of the world send their kids, and those are the people you're going to interact with. So it makes your path to success a little shorter and a little easier. So it's a smart move. So do you end up doing four years there? Yeah. And that was for finance? Yeah.

No, actually psychology. Oh, so you totally switched up. Yeah. But that actually helps me a lot. It does help me a lot. I'm pretty good with people. I understand people. And...

The prison experience brought that to an entirely different level. It's not even a comparison. I think one of the greatest things that prison did was taught me empathy, real empathy, not the Upper West Side $500 plate charity, which, you know, 90% of it, no doubt.

nobody ever sees, but really understanding the plights of others. And, uh, cause let's face facts. I mean, when I went to, I drove myself to Danbury prison and to self surrender, self surrender. And I walked in and I said, so I hear you have a reservation for me. And my brother was there and he looked at me and, uh, he just shook his head. He's like, how can you take this this way? And I said, James, I'm going in. I don't have a choice. Um,

And it was then that things started to change and I started to look at the world very differently. Yeah. And it was funny because Danbury is kind of run down, but it's nowhere near as bad as, let's say, Fort Dix. Fort Dix is a shithole. Yeah, exactly. It's literally the hood. I've heard stories that are just bizarre. So...

You know, it just, I remember the first month I was at Danbury, I actually kind of enjoyed it. It was something new, something I'd never seen before. I'm pretty adventurous. And I was like, wow, this is like not cool, but not terrible. And I'll never forget, it started to change. I saw this guy, really smart guy. God knows where he was from, some horrible place.

and doing a shit ton of time for some drug case. I mean, double, you know, 20 years, that kind of thing. And he made these cards, right?

And he opened them up and this like castle miraculously appeared. And I looked at him and I said, I've never seen anything like that. You can spend a grand at FAO Schwartz and you're not getting a card like this. And I just said the wasted talent, for some reason that really resonated with me. And I still think about that guy and the cards that he makes. Yeah. Doing what I do now really puts life into perspective. Hearing all the stories of how people grew up. Yeah. It's rough, you know, and it's hard.

Going up. Prices keep going up these days. It feels like being on an elevator that only goes up. Going up. But not at Metro. We're pushing the down button. Going down. We've lowered prices. Get one line of 5G data for $40. Period. That's 20% lower. And you get a free Samsung 5G phone when you bring your number. Only at Metro. Five-year guarantee on eligible plans. Exclusions apply. See website for details. Not available if at Metro or T-Mobile in the past six months. Tax applies. ♪

Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website, to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into... Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com slash special offer.

This episode is brought to you by SelectQuote. Life insurance can have a huge impact on our family's future. With SelectQuote, getting covered with the right policy for you is simple and affordable. SelectQuote's licensed insurance agents will tailor your experience to find a life insurance policy for your needs in as little as 15 minutes. And SelectQuote partners with carriers that provide policies for many conditions. SelectQuote. They shop.

It really just makes you think about things. Like, someone always had it worse than you. Yeah, like, I'm bitching about, you know, an over-aggressive father, and I'm driving a Boston Whaler at 14 years old, you know, on the Long Island Sound fishing. Like, yeah, I mean, I have reason to be angry, but...

Come on. I mean, there were guys and some really good friends I made when I was in there. This guy, Stevie Dent, he was at Elkton when I was transferred. And he was a rough guy, but he was cool. And he had my back. This guy, Greg Taylor. Now, Greg Taylor, we were tight. This guy was a six foot five inch African-American guy with dreads that were three feet long.

For some reason, our lips look the same, right? It was weird. So my father died when I was in prison and I didn't know because my family wouldn't tell me. But I knew something was going on because I had a conversation with my mother. And, you know, Greg and I were very close. He lived in the cube, the concrete cube right behind mine.

And he made this Darth Vader voice and said, I am your father. So there was a joke going around prison that Greg had an affair with my mother and that he was my father. It was hysterical. And it really made light of a tough situation. Yeah. You know, and then...

When I got transferred to Danbury, so I did three months in the shoe, more or less solitary. But Danbury shoe is weird because you can hear everybody at night and it was not good what you heard. I think you've got some experience in solitary. That was another thing.

really changing experience because for the first week I was pissed off second week less so and then you got to deal with yourself 90 days alone or with one other person is a long time to not leave an area a third of this room it's a long time and so you deal with yourself and that's when I think you either sink or swim and

You either really find yourself or you can go nuts. I've seen people, you know, that have spent a long time in the shoe and there's something wrong. They've been negatively impacted forever. And it's terrifying. Those first few days are the hardest in the shoe. And I've done multiple stints for a long time. I did a total of six months altogether in the shoe. 26 months? Six months. Oh, six months. Okay. It was two, another month and a half, and then almost three in Danbury.

And it was brutal. And at Danbury, at least it looks like Alcatraz, like with the bars and the tears. But not all shoes are like that. Some shoes are just a solid door and you can't see anything. Yeah, the shoe in Elkton was a solid door. And I spent one night in that shoe waiting to go to surgery. So, yeah.

So, yeah, I was at Danbury for a while, did my three months, the standard transfer time, which I have no idea why it takes so long. Have you ever figured that out? I can't. Oh, it takes, when I got transferred from Fort Dix to Danbury, you know how long the travel time was? How long? Two months.

It was two months of trip. For a three-hour drive max. Yeah, two-hour drive. Yeah. Wow. And then from Danbury to Wisconsin was almost three months. I wonder if this Doge Commission is going to look at that. I mean, that's an efficiency. That really is because we went on a bus from Fort Dix to Brooklyn.

and then you're supposed to go from Brooklyn to Danbury. But instead we went from Brooklyn to Philly. So they put me on the bus to Philly. I stayed in Philly for six weeks, then I went back to Brooklyn for a week, stayed in Brooklyn, then went to Danbury.

That's hysterical. Like you should just be having some direct buses. It's crazy. I don't know how that works. Was anybody, I can understand, let's say a high value prisoner like El Chapo, right? Like you give him his own little minivan and you do what you have to do. But for most of us, what's the risk? Yeah, and people get transported a lot from Danbury to Brooklyn all the time because that's the main hub, Brooklyn in this area. They go from Wyatt to...

to Brooklyn or to Danbury. So there was literally no need. Wow, that's amazing. So after you graduated, did you actually use your psychology degree? No, not at all. So you went right into business? Yeah, worked for some family interests for a while and ended up working for a real estate owner in New York City for a while and then went off and started to look at various interests of my own.

And, uh, obviously, you know, Spencer and I are talking about some things. Um, and I just like to look at work, look at businesses, see if there's a value add play and, um, go from there. And I was lucky, uh, when I was, I turned my business over to my brother when I was away and,

And that created a lot of problems between us because he wouldn't listen. There was always a sibling rivalry thing and it was brutal. So he destroyed that. So I lived, once I was released, I lived in a crack hotel for 14 months and it took me that long to get back on my feet and did very, very well at the tail end of COVID. And a whole bunch of interesting things transpired. So when I left Danbury, I was shipped because our community,

Wasn't very well liked. And apparently there were some issues with some of the food we were getting. Now you're talking about the Jewish community. And yeah, exactly. And we had a different menu and that wasn't well received by staff. So apparently the chaplain was involved. And from what I heard, it got very, very ugly. But I was picked up early and shipped to Elkton, Ohio.

So they took us on a bus literally right down this road out front of your office and took us over to the airport, that military base. Yeah, that's right. About an hour from here, 45 minutes from here. Yeah, Newburgh, right? Yeah, I think it's Stewart Airport. Stewart, yeah, that's it.

And it was wild because we were not the only prisoners being shipped. There's like six other buses. Yes. And these planes. And this was literally the movie Con Air. Martial surrounding. Rifles out. You know, you have a squad with a shotgun for close range and then you've got guys with M4s for a longer shot. Like these people were prepared. So I get on the plane and this white guy sits next to me and he's black boxed.

And I, of course, think what anybody would think. This guy walked into a Walmart or something and shot 40 people. You know, it turned out it was Ross Albright. So I'm sitting next to this guy and he's looking at me and I was a mess back then. I looked like death. And I'm looking at this guy like he had murdered half of a department store. And I didn't know it was him at the time. And it took me days to figure out. And, yeah.

We go through the whole processing thing in Oklahoma, which is brutal. And that was a little scary because you're mixed with everybody. And they had the Peckerwoods from the West Coast. It was interesting. A lot of Mexican gangs there too. Mexican gangs. Covered in face tattoos. Yep. And they isolated a lot of those guys. But you had an interesting mix of gangs. And it was a volatile situation. So...

Ross and I ended up being cellmates for I think a little over two weeks while I was awaiting my final destination, which was Elkton, Ohio. And so we're walking down the hall. We're out of our leg irons and handcuffs. And he looked at me and he said, all right, I guess we're about to be cellmates. And I'm thinking, shit, this is not good. This guy is obviously a killer. And this is not going to end well. Yeah.

So we started talking and I said, wait a minute, maybe this guy isn't a killer. And he ended up being one of the smartest, most compassionate, civic-minded people I've ever met in my life. I love the guy. He's great. And I didn't really know who he was until the following day when we were playing chess. And later that night, he looked at me and said, did you ever look at someone and say,

really call the wrong, you know, really call it the wrong way. And I was like, yeah, yesterday on the plane, it was pretty funny. So, you know, I, we really, we hung out every day, walked around and I was really, really taken back. And he told me his story, which I was completely ignorant. You didn't know who he was. I didn't know who he was. I heard of the case, obviously it was everywhere. And I

But I really didn't understand it. At that time, I was, you know, in prison fighting this thing and it was just not on the priority list. And I was cave diving in Florida every chance, you know, I could get. And so I didn't know and I didn't get it. And then he said, yeah, I got two life sentences plus 40 years. And I was like, come on, that's not even possible. And it really bothered me because that is one of the most grotesque

ever handed down for somebody that is not responsible for a single death. And people have argued that, well, his drugs may have killed someone. Well, it really wasn't his drugs. He facilitated an eBay, basically, which is what it is.

It was anonymous using cryptocurrency at a time when cryptocurrency was viewed as the devil. It was a threat to the global financial system. And politically, I understand it, but two life sentences without a single body. So the argument of his drugs really doesn't stand up to scrutiny because they weren't his drugs. He was the operator of a website. Right.

And today we can go on eBay together right now and buy lots of counterfeit things, which are technically felonies, but nobody at eBay is held accountable. So that's a little weird. So it really bothered me. So, you know, eventually we tried to do what we could to see what was going on with this potential release. We learned that President Trump was going to pardon him at the end of his first term. And then the shit really hit the fan there. And I think he was –

hogtied to a degree, which was too bad. Because of what happened January 6th? January 6th, yeah. Because normally all their pardons come right after that. Exactly. And I just felt so bad for Ross. He actually called me once, and I could barely talk to the guy. So they were being told, he was being told that he was getting out that first term. No, I think his, I think he had a good shot. I think if January 6th didn't happen, I think he would have been pardoned back then. And we have some pretty good

Pretty good information that certainly suggests that. And I was reading the articles back then, too, because I've always followed Ross's case because it was always interesting. And I read a couple of books that related to him as well. And I've interviewed people that have crossed paths with him. And.

And there was, you know, those rumblings about it. And then Trump made the campaign promise. Yeah. But isn't that's got to be that's like to me, like you're betting a hundred million dollars. Like Ross's point of view, he's in prison. He sees Trump announce that if he loses this election. Yeah. He's stuck there for what? Another four years, maybe depending on who gets in and what happens. So when seeing that Trump won, you know.

That it must have certainly given him hope. And I just can't imagine what the guy's feeling now. I mean, living for 10 years thinking you're going to die in a cage is it's I mean, that's how do you process that?

And to Ross's credit, he did it miraculously well. Yeah, I always wondered how he survived in the penitentiaries because I knew that's where they sent him because he looks very, especially back then when you see the younger photos of him. Yeah. He was very scrawny, white, young kid. And you know what? You're right. And if it was anyone but Ross, I don't think they would have. But even my brief experience living with him, yeah.

There's something about him that is amazing. He's really a great guy.

Now, how did you end up in prison? So I... That's a great question. And Jesus, this story is terrible. I'm sure the audience will love to hear this one. Oh, God. Yeah, it's... You jumped into the prison stores before telling people how you got there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was hoping you wouldn't catch that, but I knew you would. I'll let you tell it and then we can move on to the prison stories. Yeah, all right. So...

I, um, I've been scuba diving since I was eight years old. Again, my privileged, you know, North shore, Long Island, uh, upbringing. So, um, actually it's a funny story. My babysitter's older brother was a diver. So he taught me when I was eight. By the time I was 10, I was actually certified. Um, and I was, I'm obsessed with water. I love it. I still scuba dive. Um,

So what happened was as my journey with scuba diving, you know, developed and I became a deep shipwreck diver and I wanted to really improve my skill. So I went to Florida to learn how to cave dive and became addicted right away. And in Florida, I figured out pretty quickly that if you have a little bit of means, it goes a lot longer than it does in New York City.

So another cave diver named Rich, he passed away, drugs. And I met, and he was actually a really great guy with a horrible drug problem. He started introducing me to these women and these drug dealers, and we were just partying like rock stars. So I ended up renting a home in a really nice area in Florida, California.

And, uh, I gave a guy that I liked a guy I felt bad for. He was an African American guy and I considered him a friend. He'd come over, I'd cook him dinner and I ended up giving him a set of keys to my house. Um, and I'd bounce between New York and Florida. And, you know, to this day, I really do like him. And I, he was a smart guy. He had potential. He just never had the opportunities that I had. So he was, um, providing me with drugs, cocaine specifically. Um,

And he'd come over and he'd introduce me to, you know, people that want to party and hang out. And most of them were women. Turns out one of his female friends was like, I forget the age, 15 or 16 years old. I actually never actually met her, but I was charged with human trafficking. Wait, how did you get charged with human trafficking? Conspiracy laws apply. And this is something that my first probation officer explained to me. I said, look, I never had sex with a young girl. That's fucking disgusting.

and he said, you don't get it. He said, we knew you were thinking about going to trial. He said, um, you gave a known drug dealer and pimp, which is true keys to your home. You were promoting that business. He said, you're lucky the state didn't come in, you know, and there's a lot of truth to what he said. I think, you know, how, um, wide conspiracy laws are there intentionally, um,

a little vague, but morally, my old probation officer was 100% right. You know, I did, knowingly or not, promote some really bad shit.

I think that's how Epstein got jammed up in Florida the first time, too, even though they let him off easy. Right. The documentary, I think, goes into that, how the prosecutors in Florida failed that. But he was tied to something similar with an underage person. Yeah. I don't know anything about his case. When the shit hit the fan with that guy, man, that was the least of his problems. Yeah, he really— He was a bad guy. So—

Even if we could prove that nothing happened between me and this girl, which we couldn't prove, but they couldn't prove that something happened. It was a bad look. They had a picture of me buying drugs in my shorts and a T-shirt in my driveway. I mean, there was no way to get around certain crimes that I did commit. And...

You know, I actually have a friend who's a federal prosecutor and a woman. And she prosecuted really horrific sex crimes. I mean, bad, bad shit. Things that you just want to see that person put down over. And she looked at me and said, what the fuck were you thinking? She said, if you want to be an asshole, why did you leave New York? She wasn't wrong. So...

It was a bunch of tough circumstances that I was a part of. How did you find out you were being investigated and then got arrested? Oh, great question. My bedroom door was kicked in, and I actually thought it was friends of mine playing a joke. So I used to do a lot of shooting, competitive shooting, three-gunning, two-gunning, run-and-gunning. And I shot with a lot of people involved in law enforcement.

And I was pretty good with a gun, with a pistol, with a machine gun. Can't do that anymore. Yeah, no shit. I actually miss it, but I like my freedom more. You know, I've got guys calling me now that FaceTime me to tell me how to build their pistols and make mods and things. And I'm thinking, oh, this is epic. I'm 1,300 miles away and I'm teaching you how to install an aftermarket trigger. And...

So it's wild. So, yeah, I thought they were kind of joking. And then I quickly learned that the joke was definitely on me. So that was interesting. And the whole process to go through that was rough. And, yeah. So you didn't know any investigation was happening, nothing. They just randomly show up. Yep.

They didn't consult with you? Nothing. My head was in the clouds. I was drinking every day, using Coke every day. Look, they could have had a surveillance team next to my mailbox and I wouldn't have known. I mean, they probably did. They probably said, look at this jackass. And they probably did. Who knows? Um,

I spoke to, you know, a bunch of lawyers and the feeling was, if you take this case to trial, you've got a decent shot of beating it. But if you don't beat it, you are done. So over the course of a year and a half, you know, a plea was reached. You know the drill. You just had the balls to go to trial. And that's it. I ended up with a four-year sentence and I served every single day, three and a half years.

Of the four years? Of the four years. So it wasn't every day. Well, I didn't have just my good time. I had no halfway house, no nothing. Okay. So, and that was an interesting story. But it really was, on one hand, it was the worst thing that's ever happened to me. But on the other hand, it was the best. What year did you get sentenced? 2016. I surrendered right down the road.

in November, at the beginning of November, I think, or maybe October in 2016. Wow. We went in at the exact same time. So my bond got revoked October 4th, 2016. And I got sent to Y at the Federal Detention Center in Rhode Island. Why? I was going out of state to gamble. I wasn't 21 yet. And I was going to Yonkers Raceway. No kidding. I would play back and I would

turned 500 bucks into 30,000 sometimes. That's how I'd pay my bills at the club. Really? Yeah. So long story short, my friends snitched on me. They told the feds, they did a bond hearing, they revoked it. And then I got sentenced a month later. So I didn't have the luxury of self-surrendering like a lot of white collar guys in the feds do, which actually worked out for the best because then it's more relatable to a lot of my guests that come on that don't have the privilege to do what you were able to do.

So you get sentenced November 1st. What's going through your head between the time you got sentenced and self-surrendered? So that's a great question. And I'll tell you what went through my head was everything. So I was in Florida. I was sentenced 60 days before I surrendered. So I surrendered in November. Yeah, like maybe November 5th. That rings a bell for some reason. Surprised they didn't let you go to the holidays. Yeah.

Yeah, I guess. I think my lawyer at the time asked me how much time I needed and I said just get me 60 days. At that point, I was so worn out and physically shot, I just wanted to get it over with. So I guess sentencing was in October. It was postponed once because of a hurricane. And so the day I was sentenced –

to the time I surrendered. So I was diving. I started, the risk profile of my dives started going way up. I was doing three really deep, long dives a week in a cave alone, probably anywhere from 10 to 15 hours, taking risks I shouldn't have taken. So that's where my head was at. I was diving like Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. And there was a certain cave system that I liked, which is extremely deep, pretty dangerous, very dangerous.

And long. So the risk profile went up a lot. Yeah, we're encounter sharks or anything? No, because these caves are actually, you're more likely to encounter water moccasins or snakes because these are all inland and they're all freshwater. Not every cave is freshwater. There are a couple that have passages that go down.

you know, into the Gulf of Mexico or the East coast of Florida. I would be so scared to get like trapped or something. Yeah. I've been trapped. It's not fun. But when I was between surrendering, I was less concerned with that, you know? Um, so that was interesting. Um, and I'm sure you're getting your business affairs in order and whatnot. Exactly. Now, did you spend any money on like a prison consultant because you had money and this was your first time going into prison? I did not. Did

Did you think about it? I didn't even know they existed. I'm glad you didn't. They're all a scam. I paid for one. I got bamboozled out of like four grand. Really? What did he do for you? Nothing. Nothing. Promised me the world about transfers, all of this. That's why we hired him when I was already in and I wanted to get, because they raised my points. Okay. Because they messed up the paperwork and said I didn't have my high school diploma, which I did. So my points were at a 12. You need an 11 or under to get to a camp. Okay.

So I go to Fort Dix. I'm thinking of going to a camp. I go to Fort Dix. And because I went to trial, didn't accept responsibility, it jacked up the points and because of my age. Yeah. So we pay this guy and...

Crazy. Really, all I really needed to do was donate to the local synagogue because my family's Jewish. So all we had to do was get in with a rabbi to get me transferred. Yeah. Little did you know. But yeah, prison consultants, I hate seeing these guys on the news. All of this, it's such a scam. You can get this information for free. They're all ex-prison consultants.

Guards, captains, wardens, from what I understand. Yeah, I learned about prison consultants after I was well into serving my time, so there was no... You thought about another business to invest in? Jesus, yeah. So did you put any money on your commissary account before you went in? Were you looking into that at all? No, I didn't. I really...

Kind of like this interview, I did no homework. I just said what's going to happen is going to happen. I'm driving myself to prison. I don't want to know. And I literally drove myself to prison. Were you afraid at all? A little bit. Sure.

Absolutely. I was wondering if, you know, what you see in that old HBO show Oz is true. I never watched it. It's interesting. It's probably pretty accurate once you get up into the higher levels. I was at a low, as you know. But yeah, it was I was definitely a little a little nervous. And there were some very, very tough guys in prison.

Danbury is a sweet spot, though. Absolutely. Danbury wasn't bad. And if you made the right relationships there, and it's actually pretty easy to do if you're smart. Danbury I liked because I was around New Yorkers, guys from Connecticut, guys from Jersey, and I grew up in that environment. We understood each other. When I was transferred to Elkton, it was very different. The demographic there is a lot different. So...

It's more country and things like that. But I actually did really well there. And I gained a lot of respect on the yard. And it was because I gave a lot. How did they treat you with your charge? One person said something at Elkton and he was transferred. He was put in the shoe by his own friends and transferred. And I'm guessing he called you a chomo or something like that? Yeah, he called me. And it couldn't be further from the truth. But

One of the terrible things about prison is the ignorance that rules the day. If you actually read my case superficially, it looks and sounds horrible. But if you get into the nitty gritty...

It's kind of like, okay, so you were definitely around some bad stuff. Did you know? Well, I mean, that's an interesting question because I certainly had the intelligence to know due diligence is kind of my business. If I wanted to know, I would have known. And if I did know, I would have put an end to it because it would have scared me. But I was so high and so drunk so regularly, my judgment was so screwed up that I didn't want to know. I literally chose to be ignorant.

You were probably in the minority for your case in the places you went to because you weren't a fraud guy, but you weren't necessarily one of those sex offenders either. Yeah. You were like in limbo. It was gray. What I learned quickly in prison was I learned how to really give real respect to Danbury not so much, but when I did most of my time in Elkton, which was a really interesting place. And –

I developed some really good relationships there. And some of these guys I miss. It's amazing what happens, the bond you can create with someone who's going through the absolute worst possible thing in their life, but yet still has the strength to find some joy.

Which I made myself valuable, but I also had a genuine sense of respect for people that didn't have the privileges I did. What would be like a typical day because you came from money and had money, you didn't really need to hustle or anything like that? Did you pay for food? Did you do certain curricular activities? Did you indulge in all that? Yeah, so I had a laundry guy.

He was a great guy. We had a guy that made salads very similar to, do you remember that guy, Boston Mike? Did you know him from Danbury? I was on the yard for less than 24 hours. Oh, shit. Okay. Damn. So there was a guy named Boston Mike who was a really charismatic guy. And he had just, he would somehow get these guys to make the best salads ever.

You know, getting vinegar, olive oil, all those things. So those things matter, as you know, in prison. It's not like going to your local Citarella and buying a bottle. So, yeah, I had a salad guy. I had, there was this one guy who made the best like empanadas. They were outrageous. I still think about them. And he was there on some, I think he got caught cold with like two keys of Coke. And he got a lot of time.

And he actually left right before me and they deported him back to Mexico right away. I had an empanada guy. I had a laundry guy. My job, you know, in prison, I had to dust the mailbox. So you had a no-show job that you paid someone. I had a no-show job that I paid someone to do. And it was kind of funny because someone asked me, one of the guards said one day, knowing that I did nothing, he said, where's the mailbox? And I was like, I don't know. Yeah.

So, and then I had a special bed because of all my back trouble, which I'm happy to say has really recovered nicely. It's always funny when the new guards would come on shift for the quarter and they would call the actual people that are supposed to do the job and, you know, bust down on them. And then it really, it's just the other people that are doing the job for them. Yeah. You have like no idea what's going on.

Exactly. It was a really interesting experience. And look, from time to time, we had fun. We had the guys from West Virginia making moonshine. And this was real white lightning. I mean, these guys had talent. I thought it was a TV show. It turns out it's pretty real. And they put it in the teddy bottles? No, they put it in like the cups that we had. And they sold it for stamps. That was our currency. Okay.

Which was very clever, by the way. That I found really fascinating. Our banking system in prison is just amazing. So, you know, let's see, what else did I have? I had a guy that made my bed and the guards hated the fact that I had this like gigantic mattress because they go in there and assume it was illegit. And then I'd put out, pull out all of these pieces. What's the paperwork called? I forgot.

Like a health pass, a medical pass? Yeah, I had a stack of medical passes. So I had the bottom bunk and everything like that, which is what you want.

And always had extra food and I kept kosher in prison. So we had, you know, plenty of great stuff. How much do you think you paid a month to live comfortably in prison? That's a good question. Commissary I would max out every month, which was like, I think it was like 200 and... 360 I think. 360, okay. Back then at least when I was there, yeah. Okay. So I spent all of that every month and I probably spent another 150 bucks. Yeah.

200 bucks. Not a lot because I didn't use drugs. That ended since prison. I didn't drink. I wouldn't do anything to jeopardize my outdate. Anything. So no cell phone? No.

Well, I mean, from time to time, I... Everyone dabbles. You dabble with things like that. Right. That's a great way to look at it. I didn't have my own cell phone. Renting is the better option. I've learned that the hard way. Much smarter. Oh, really? I've had my own cell phone and I've rented it. If I could do it all over again, I would always rent. It is smarter. There's no risk. Yeah. I didn't have to rent it. When I needed to make a call, they just said, here's the phone.

And you'd have five guys watch out for you. What were some of the rules that shocked you? Like maybe like no flip-flops in a certain area or anything like that? Yeah, so that was a little weird. At Elkton, you couldn't have a belt. At Danbury, you could. Elkton, you had your name and number imprinted on everything. And there were consequences if you screwed around with that. The other rule, being counted that many times a day was just inhuman, right?

I get it, but my God, that's the one thing about prison that really bothered me. Um, and the lack of access to education is a crime in and of itself. Um, the prisons in, in reality, unless you come from a lot of money and you can afford to spend, um, thousands and thousands of dollars on correspondence programs, uh, with the very few institutions that would cooperate with the BOP, the, um,

The lack of education is terrible because the only thing that prison does is warehouse you. And it's bad. So right before I left, we had a dyslexia test. I don't know if you had one. I am a little dyslexic. I'm on the scale. And I knew that since childhood. So a bunch of us are in a classroom. Guard comes out and says, okay, I'm giving you all the answers because if you're dyslexic, you don't want to know because we're going to make you take a class.

And I'm thinking to myself, what the fuck is this guy doing? Giving us the answer. So the people that actually need help and can develop techniques to deal with that, you're denying that. And that really sucked. So I think that, you know, President Trump certainly was dabbling with prison reform. And I think that he's certainly in a position to wreak some havoc. He seems to be doing a really good job. Did the CARES Act benefit you at all with the programs or no?

No, not really. My sentence was too short. You know, three and a half years of real time that's on a four-year sentence, assuming you don't lose any good time.

It's just too short. Nobody cares. And you couldn't get into any of the, any program that might help you when you're released. Yeah. And. He also didn't pass it till end of 2019. Yeah, I was on my way out. At the end of 2019, I was out in the beginning of 20, first half of 20. Yeah. Or I mean, end of 18. I got out on 19 and he passed that end of 18. Okay. So everyone was excited about it, but it didn't take effect till a while to reap the benefits. Yeah. Yeah.

And then COVID happened, but you wouldn't have gotten that benefit either because you got out in the beginning at 20. Right. If COVID happened while we were in prison, home confined with baby. But it got right out of there. That would have been interesting. No, COVID didn't help me at all, but I made damn sure it helped a friend of mine named Billy McFarland. You know that guy? Now, yeah, you were in prison with a very notable inmate. Yeah, a couple. Ross was a fantastic guy.

Um, anyone that surrounds himself, themselves with Ross is lucky. Billy, not so much. Were you in Elkton already before Billy got there? Yeah. Okay. So let, tell us the whole story. Oh Jesus, this is great. Um, so one day I'm out in the yard doing pushups and my friend Jarrell, who's from Connecticut, he's a great guy, um, walks up to me with a guy that's really familiar looking. So I'm like, I know this guy, where do I know him from?

So it turns out this guy lived two blocks from me in Manhattan. So I lived on 14th and 7th, and he lived two blocks away. And I've passed him before. I've seen the houses he used to throw these ridiculous parties out with his fake black card. That was actually kind of clever. I had respect for that idea. The problem with him running it, it was just never going to go anywhere.

And it didn't. It failed. So I meet Billy. And from the second I met him, we were inseparable. It was me, Jarell, and Billy. So instantly we became very close. So one of the things that bothered me about Elkton is I didn't really know anyone. I didn't really – I wasn't around people that I could identify with.

And Billy was a guy who lived two blocks away. We were going to the same restaurant, same sushi places, same clubs. Everything was the same. So, you know, I woke up, I walked up to him one day and I said, you know what? I really miss that chicken saute at Mr. Chow. You know, and he's like, right? You know, it was just, we were tight. So we came up with this idea and to go into business together once he gets out. And we developed this plan called Pirate.

P-Y-R-T. Wait, that was your idea with him? No, we were all involved in that. That's a company he has now. I know. And it owes me money. Holy shit. A lot of it. All right, so you guys developed this plan. We developed this plan. We're talking about different strategies for a long time, months and months and months. And we're exercising every day together. We're walking together at night. You know the whole walk routine in prison. It's basically a big hamster wheel. Yeah.

After chow. Yeah. And that's right. After chow until, what is it, like 8.30 or so? Dark or... Just walk. So we have all of these plans. We have a book idea. We have a reality TV show idea. We have Pirate. And I was really adamant about Fyre Festival 2. And my argument was, I think, pretty reasonable. My argument was, Billy, if you succeed where you fail...

And you can prove that you will never be questioned again. And if you can pull this off, we'll raise all the money we could ever want for anything we want to do, as long as it's sound. And it's tough, but I think we can get there. So I'm released at the, you know, sort towards the end of COVID, but the COVID rules were in full force and effect. So I get out, I call a guy named Michael Falb and

Now, Mike Faub is still to this day Billy's manager, or at least that information was verified four weeks ago. And Mike and I start immediately talking about trying to get Billy out of prison, which we were involved in that. I can't say that we were exclusively successful. I can't do that. But

But we were involved in the push to get Billy out early. If you've heard that sound from Babbel before, I bet you do. Babbel is the science-backed language learning app that actually works. With quick 10-minute lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts, Babbel gets you on your way to speaking a new language in just a few weeks. With over 16 million subscriptions sold and a 20-day money-back guarantee, just start speaking another language with Babbel. Right now, up to 55% off your Babbel subscription at babbel.com.

Babbel.com slash Spotify podcast. Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Spotify podcast. Rules and restrictions may apply. He did get out early. He did get out early.

So he served less time than me and owes a hundred times more. He owes 26 million. I owe 480,000. And what that man gets out of prison before me. And he got a longer sentence. He only got five. He got two years longer than six years. Six years. Yeah. I think serve less time than me. And I had a shorter sentence.

Talk about sick, man. I don't get it. I just don't get it. Okay, so— So I get out, and I'm living in this crack hotel with no car and, you know, rebuilding what I have. And so I start communicating with Mike Faub. I start calling Billy's girlfriend at the time, Anastasia Armenko, and she was a model, Russian model. I actually like her. She's very smart and very cool. Yeah.

Um, no idea what she's doing with Billy. Uh, I think she just had so much vested in him. And I think Billy actually conned her out of money because one of the things that Billy asked me to do through Mike while he was still in prison is to calm her down, telling her, don't worry, don't worry, don't worry. And I remember Anastasia one day telling this story about her only like luxury item was this watch that she saved up for and bought and how she might have to sell it. And she did not sound good.

And she had every right to be pissed off. So Mike and I start talking about Billy, putting plans together, getting him out. We contacted various advocacy groups that you're aware of, religious groups, religious leaders, and spent money on attorneys. Some of them were my attorneys as well. And eventually Billy got out early.

So Mike and I are talking and Mike says, well, Billy really respects you. So when are you going to move back to New York? And I said, well, at this point, I'm looking to come home. And he said, where are you going to move? I said, well, back to Manhattan. And he said, okay, but Billy's going to go to Brooklyn. I said, tell you what, my father used to have an office in Brooklyn Heights. I have my cousin live there. You know, I had some ties to that neighborhood and it's arguably nicer than most of Manhattan today.

So I said, I'll move to Brooklyn Heights. It's one subway stop out of Manhattan. I don't care. And I'll be close to Billy. So I moved to Brooklyn Heights because of Billy so that I could be sort of the guy that keeps him out of his own way. Obviously I failed miserably. It was not good. So we had, Billy was released to halfway house. I move, I'm traveling from Florida to New York and

And, um, this is roughly two years ago. Yeah. Two, more like three now. Okay. It was 2000. Yeah. I actually brought my laptop. I've got some interesting stuff on there. Wait, that's a laptop. Oh yeah. Oh, that looks like a book. I know it's camouflaged. Wait, that is so cool. Wow. You should see some of the texts this guy sent. The arrogance is unbelievable.

That is an incredible, is that a Mac? Yeah, of course. You got to send me that case. All right. Yeah, tell me where to get that case. That is awesome. I think they're on Amazon or it's called, I think it's a book book. Are they different colors and stuff too? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, and that'll fit a Pro too? They have ones, I have another bigger one for my Pro. Okay, that's incredible. Yeah, it's great. Okay, so you moved to Brooklyn. Moved to Brooklyn Heights. Yes.

And really the only reason I moved to Brooklyn Heights was for Billy. So that kind of rubs me the wrong way. And so we start communicating. At the time, I had the necessary approvals to communicate with a felon. And things were going very, very well.

Billy claimed to have a $2 million book deal with Guy Lawson. Do you know who that is? No. Guy Lawson is a famous true crime writer. And there was a movie about those two arms dealers. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so he wrote the book. I had one of them. I had David Packhouse on my show. Oh, you did? Okay. So, well, Guy Lawson wrote the book. So he's good. And he's a really nice guy. And his writing is excellent.

So I spoke to Guy Lawson while Billy was still incarcerated, and I was thinking, Guy does not sound like he's ready to guarantee a $2 million deal. In fact, Guy Lawson, to me, sounded lukewarm. So Billy is a spin master. He's great. And on one hand, I got to respect the bullshit because this guy, I've seen a lot of bad actors in my life. This guy was the best I've ever seen, and he set me up like a bowling pin.

So we had become very, very close and I had basically been supporting him, um, to the tune of, well, including the cash that I can't prove I gave him, um, over $740,000. Now, what do you mean by supporting? So I bought him countless things on Amazon, clothing, um,

Apple Watch. The list gets long. I went through it with my attorneys a few days ago and God, did I get pissed off. So you didn't actually send him money? I did. Sure I did. I sent him Venmos. I sent him cash apps. I sent him a lot. And did you have a contract in place? I did not. And I know what you're going to say.

How? Exactly. I was such a sucker. Billy played me perfectly. He knew I was interested in his business. He knew I wanted to make a change. And he just, he played me perfectly. Now his office that he showboated when he first got out, was that you or someone else? When he first got out, that was an apartment in Bed-Stuy. That he said it was an office? Yeah.

I'd have to look. Now I'm curious. Where they did like the whole billboard reveal of the pirate plan and it was like spinning and it looked like an office and he had a team. I'm going to look at that. I don't know. Maybe we'll have some more information to dig up. So did he have a team in place? Like what did this look like when he got out? So he had me, he had Mike Faub, and Mike Faub's a good guy that made some very bad mistakes. He had his girlfriend, Anastasia. She was neck deep in this whole thing.

So what happened was in Labor Day weekend, and this is, this is fantastic. I had just wire transferred to Mike Faub a lot of money that I have proof of, um, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. And this was used to pay for a lot of the production that you've seen relating to Pirate. And I'm sure I paid for more than that. Um, so Mike disclosed to me, we were out in the Hamptons over Labor Day weekend, uh,

two years ago and Mike said look the reason why all the money came to me is because if Billy's POC is that they'll violate them and then I said to myself shit this is not good because this gets me wrapped up in something that is not kosher so I had been applying more and more pressure see I came up with this money because I was told it was a very short-term loan

And that the sweat equity I had put in for the previous two years was my entitlement to a third of the deal. Mike Faub getting the other third. And, of course, Billy retaining a third for himself, which he knew would be – a lot of it would be put towards restitution. So I had a friend of mine. This is how Billy thinks. I had a girl that I – we had an intimate relationship kind of on and off. A really, really great girl. She happened to be African-American. Right.

Okay. I brought her out to the Hamptons. I paid, I think, for the house indirectly. And Billy invited a couple of guys from the Bahamas from the first fiasco, Fire One, we'll call it. And Billy walked up to me and said, you know, you are really smart to bring a black girl out here because it's going to give us a lot of credibility and make our friends in the Bahamas feel comfortable.

And when he said that, I was already on ice. I was really not comfortable with where things were. When he said that, I said, fuck, I'm screwed. So it gets better. This girl brought out, went out of her way. She's a professional chef and she is a good chef with a serious resume of working at some Michelin starred places. She's a magician in the kitchen.

Never met any of them before. And she brings out probably seven or $800 worth of baked goods that she made herself over the course of the previous day and a half. It really went out of her way. A sweetheart of a girl, a really nice thing. And everyone devoured everything she ate. Billy told somebody that I brought out a hooker and proceeded to do cocaine for four days straight with a hooker in a bedroom.

He made this up out of thin air. What actually happened was she came out for two days, not four. She got really, really sick. Don't know what it was. She was throwing up in the toilet. I was the one holding her hair back. And we didn't go downstairs or interact very much because we just got over a little thing called COVID. And she was a very socially conscious woman. That's how sick and twisted this guy is. I mean, it's diabolical.

If he was a killer and he had the balls to actually kill somebody, he'd be up there with Son of Sam, in my opinion.

The thing that I don't get, and we were talking about this before we started, was now I have a fraud case like Billy, just very much smaller, and my conditions of release were extremely strict. Right. I couldn't go anywhere near what I used to do or anything like that. So that's why I'm so confused by how he's able to get away with what he's doing right now. Yeah. So that's a great question, and I'm not so sure he's getting away with it.

Um, my attorneys, it's a midtown Manhattan law firm. They're credible. They're very smart and they're serious. They don't think he's getting away with it. Now they can't tell me certain things. And, um, I'm certainly not going to go looking or pressing for in places that I don't want to be like the U S attorney's office. Um, but from what I'm hearing, you don't want to be Billy now.

And even this whole, like I worked in the music industry and he burned a lot of artists and agents. There's no way they're giving him acts. I mean, Firefest 2 was supposed to be this past December. Right. And now it's April. And I don't think, they're selling tickets for a million bucks. Subtickets. Right. I don't know who's buying any of these. I think it's all Fugazi that he's saying tickets are selling. Oh, I agree. I just don't see how he. But no lineup has been announced. Right.

Well, I know that there's an investigative reporter working on a story that I've talked to. Okay. She's the one that broke the story to the feds about his second arrest for the ticket scheme. Oh, the original time. Yes. That was crazy too. Right. That's how he got his bond removed. Right. That's it. Now she's looking to hit him again. So did he get permission to associate with you like you got permission to associate with him? No.

That's a great question. I think the answer is no. And I bring that up because this is how I tie into Billy. Oh, God. I can't believe this. This is my Billy story. All right. So Billy gets out. He's going on his whole podcast spree. And I've always been interested in Billy's story because it was similar. He had two major documentaries come out. One of his producers of the Hulu one. Mm-hmm.

was the producer of my HBO one. And he actually lives in the town over, does not like Billy at all, says he's an asshole because Billy charged Hulu X amount of dollars to do it. And it's just narcissist, unfriendly, this and that. So that was the relationship. And then he's doing these interviews. He gets out. He hadn't really announced a Fyre Fest 2 yet, but he was hitting the pavement. And I always wondered who was supporting him, this and that.

I start on TikTok after my career at Whole Foods for a few years, rebuilt my life, this and that. Quit, started on TikTok, and then got the podcast. This is January 2023. Okay. That March or April—

I reach out to Billy on Twitter. That one was Twitter at the time, and I DM him, and he DMs me back, and he says, hey, would love to do the show. Here's my email. Contact my manager or whatever. Was that Mike Phelps? I don't know off the top of my head, but this is where it gets weird. So I email the manager. That manager...

Gives me another email to email this other person who then sends me to another person who then finally says to me, hey, Billy would love to do the show, but he can't because you're a felon.

Now, granted, this is now take in mind, this is the time where I'm dealing with felons every day because the world has started to shift. Like we were talking earlier about POs letting people go on shows just like you're here right now. Yeah. I said, hey, I want to do this. He said, OK. Yeah. So everyone's allowing it. So to me, that was weird why he would do that.

And then after that, I called him out for a boxing match too. Oh, you did? I called him out for a fight because I was getting into boxing. I was like, this would be a great fight. Let's put our money where our mouth is and let's pay a restitution with it. Good idea. Because he was talking about paying the Bahamas and this and all this, right? So then...

They never answer. Then fast forward a year to 2023, this past or 2024, this past year in April, I get a call and it could be from this Mike Fobb guy. I'd have to check the texts. Yeah. Get a call or a text first. Hey, this is Billy McFarland's manager. You got a sec. I was curious. I took the call. He,

He says, hey, Billy is doing this karate kick thing. His opponent backed out. Would you fight him in this? I said, yeah, but I'm not doing it for less than 100K because now my platform is significantly bigger than Billy. Sure. And the interesting thing about Billy, and this goes to his character, is that Billy has been on every – has gotten more major press than anyone I know. Right. And his following does not grow. No.

It stays stagnant. So that shows a point of who he is as a personality. Yeah. So I declined the fight and they never got back to me because they didn't want to pay me the money. And then I saw he did that karate kick fight or whatever. And he was serious about that. So that was the last time I talked to him. But that's my Billy story and all of that. But it just always seems like it's some type of fugazi or scam or this and that. It's how he's wired. So when you and I first met earlier today –

You gave me a handshake. You looked me in the eyes. I reciprocated, obviously. There was a real human interaction there. You were like, hey, how you doing? Good to meet you. And with Billy, it's weird. So it's tough to explain, but it's like you're not shaking the hand of a human being. He lacks, I think, any type of empathy, which is what prison really gave me.

And I noticed it in prison, but I ignored it because I was so desperate for familiarity and comfort. I noticed that in prison. I brought him to one of these, you know, classes at the education department. And a friend of mine named Sean Meadows taught it. Very smart guy, very business guy. They're on a big fraud case out of Minnesota. And Billy said, I know this shit.

I don't need to be here. And I said, Billy, you're not here for the education. You're here to help everybody sitting behind you that doesn't understand this stuff. And it'll go a long way if you show them that respect. And it was like I was talking to a brick wall. He just didn't, he couldn't understand that. So it was really interesting. And, you know, shame on me. I saw it pretty early and ignored it.

I guess this goes to, you know, like answering the question about how like investors got duped by Bernie Madoff or just in general. You're a seasoned investor, I would say, or a business savvy. Yeah. And you still did that, you know. Yeah. I was reading an email today on the way up here from one of the lawyers that's about to refile against Billy.

Um, and just the questions, I just can't believe it. It's so embarrassing. So what happened to that first lawsuit? Did it get kicked out or? We're, we're just, we're revising the complaint to be a little bit more comprehensive. And the details, uh, I've been told, um,

I just don't remember them. No. It's been a long few days. Why did that not trigger a violation for a supervised release? Because he got out even earlier on, I'm guessing, one of the CARES acts or whatever with COVID or whatever it was that got him out. How come that didn't trigger a revocation? I don't know. I mean, something is going on. We're just not quite sure what it is. I know that somebody else he ripped off went directly to his probation officer.

When apparently he moved to Manhattan, I'm not quite sure where he is. And the probation officer took the information. Something is happening. I know that evidence was delivered to the Southern District of New York in a USA there. I'm just too far removed. And I don't think we're going to be there. They're not the type that are going to update us to the scope or status of the investigation. Do you think Fyre Fest 2 happens? No.

If Billy is directly involved, no. If somebody is paying Billy to use his name or use the, I guess, cliche, I don't know why you'd want to do that, though. It didn't end well the first time. I just feel like the rep is too ruined to anyone to take it seriously. Like, it would have been a better reality TV show, like, getting a TV right or a film to pretend like you're putting it back together or something. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, I think we had a pretty good plan and we had a path to success, but the problem was always Billy. Do you remember that he did an article, I think, for the New York Times immediately upon his release? Yeah. He was interviewed? Okay. I was in the room prepping him the night before. And he was more concerned about the sexual orientation of the interviewer than about the interviewer. He has a sort of a phobia, right?

I guess towards the gay community. And New York's kind of a funny place to live if you think that way. We don't really take kindly to such ignorance there. You did have a glow-up. I'll give him that in prison. He got the prison glow-up, but...

He just, he was happy before going in. But he's just, I don't get it. Some of the videos make me cringe. He hasn't been posting on social media much later. So that's kind of, I kind of figured something's up. No. Something's going on. Yeah. And so if you're about to throw a successful version of a failure, you're

You want to increase your exposure, not decrease. So something's going on. Yeah, I think he's underwater. I mean, probably with probation on supervised release. You should not, like I didn't get into business till after I was on supervised release. Right. Till I was off. I just think it's a dangerous game to play when you have a fraud case and this and that and they can have it.

rights to everything. Sure. It's just, it's dangerous. And also the restitution thing, like he promotes paying the Bahama people first. Before U.S. citizens. And there's no way the U.S. will allow that. Right. And the U.S. just paid for his incarceration. Right.

You know, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. He'll say whatever he has to say, in my opinion, to get his desired immediate result. The problem is I think it's all catching up to him now. It's a good thing you didn't look into me before because then you would have thought I was Billy 2.0 getting you out here to pitch it. You would have saw concert promoter nightclubs. That's so funny. No, I really wanted to come in here fresh. I'm glad you did. Yeah, I really didn't know what to expect. Yeah.

But I thought it was in everyone's interest to just be yourself. Yeah. So what do you think is the biggest learning lesson? I know you said empathy, but what else do you think you took away from this whole experience? Why do you think you had to go through this? You know, to really finding myself has always been tough. It's funny. A really good friend of mine who's out there said, you have a problem developing empathy.

intimate relationships, you are very closed off. And that's true. And I recently, you know, went out with this one woman I really liked and I fucked it up. But, um, she, one of the things she said was he just appears to be really closed off. He's an incredible gentleman. He's nice. He's very smart, but he appears to be closed off. And, um, I was actually out with somebody that I think is really cool last night. And, um, I'm trying to work on that. So, um,

That's something that the prison experience has opened me up to because when you're going through the worst possible experience, you're confined with nothing but guys, which was not, you know, that's not ideal for me. Some of the people there really liked it, but sadly, I'm not one of them. And

You just, you learn a little bit more about yourself. You learn what you're capable of. Solitary teaches you how to really reflect on yourself. And it's been, I've had some great successes since I've been released. And I've also had some incredible failures. I think we just talked about the Billy. You know, and it's something I'll have to get past one way or another. But I think prison inspired a change at a level that's very difficult to articulate.

The way I look at people is differently. When someone's in distress, I look at them differently. I threw a guy off a subway the other day, physically, because this guy was high on something. He had his pants down and his hand down his pants, basically sexually assaulting this woman who was just trying to get home from work.

You know, and she was mortified crying. I just grabbed him and threw him off. John the badass. Look at that. So, you know, and I, I spoke to someone about it and they're like, look, we get it, but you could be at risk. And there's, that's true. So I have to be very careful. Yeah. John T the badass. Jesus. JJ. I don't know which one I like more. John T started with my cave diving, uh,

A couple of cave divers tagged me that, but I don't know which one I like more. Are you still diving now? Yeah. That's awesome. I've actually been medically prohibited for the past year, but I'm in the middle of building a new rebreather. We're actually doing a body recovery in not too far from here, actually, at the Tilly Foster mine. A friend of mine set it up and he's been working there for years looking for this body.

So it's a 17-year-old girl who was raped and murdered. Oh, so you guys are searching for the body? Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was a girl named Robin Murphy. There's a lot out there about it, but horrible tragedy. Have you ever come across bodies? Yeah, a lot. I mean, not a lot, but... Do you have to report it or...?

Oh, yeah. I mean, we know. Like, if somebody goes into a cave, typically they're diving doubles, two tanks. I dive a rebreather, which extends the time you can spend underwater. Rebreathers are now becoming much more in fashion. I started diving breathers in the 90s before anyone knew what one was. And...

When someone goes into a cave, you know how long they're going to be. So if someone says, okay, I'll be in the water for two hours and three hours later, they're not there. It's a body recovery. That's it. You know, they're gone. You really, it's an incredibly unforgiving environment.

And you don't know what darkness is until you shut your light out in a cave. It's terrifying. It's bizarre. I can't imagine. Yeah, it's cool. I always picture those fish that have like the light over them. Yeah. Do those still exist? That's your best friend if you lose your lights. That's funny. But-

The other thing that prison taught me, before prison I was a bit of a hothead. And prison really taught me, along with cave diving, to maintain your composure under pressure. And I was recently asked to get involved in a personal situation and it really required a cool head for weeks, weeks.

to get the result that everybody wanted. And we got that result. There were people that were just too close to that situation emotionally. And while the person I consider a good friend, it just required real, a cool head. And so it worked. So that's something that will serve you well forever.

That's awesome. Yeah. Well, John, thanks so much for sitting down with me today, man. This is a great conversation. It was fun. It's always fun connecting with someone that was in the same shoes as you. Exactly. We're not, what, two or three miles from here? Yeah, make sure you give them a wave on the way home. Absolutely, God. Take care, brother. All right, you too.