How I Made $40,000 Running an Illegal Prison Tattoo Business | Chris Dobson
01:45:06 Share

Right now, up to 55% off your Babbel subscription at

The NBA playoffs are here, and I'm getting my bets in on FanDuel. Talk to me, Chuck GPT. What do you know? All sorts of interesting stuff. Even Charles Barkley's greatest fear. Hey, nobody needs to know that. New customers bet $5 to get 200 in bonus bets if you win FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook.

21 plus and present in Illinois. Must be first online real money wager. $5 deposit required. Bonus issued is non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See full terms at fanduel.com slash sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Chris, welcome to Locked In, man. Straight from North Carolina, right? Yeah, North Carolina. Awesome. Well, you left the warm weather to come over here. I know. I don't know how y'all do it. I don't know what y'all are doing up here. Dude, this is a warm day. It's 40 degrees and it's warm. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's beautiful.

So you got lucky because some weeks it's, you know, seven degrees or below freezing. Yeah, no, I can't do that. Yeah, well, it's a pleasure having you here, man. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Yeah, of course, man. I'm glad it worked out that we have a mutual connection. For sure. That's crazy. Which is a very small world that you said you happen to be sending me the pictures of him earlier. And it's like, wow. Yeah. It's crazy. So I'm glad that worked out. But did you grow up in North Carolina? No, I actually grew up in the beautiful city of Newport News, Virginia.

In the Hampton Roads area. Who'd you grow up with? So I grew up with my mom and dad. We were, my dad was in construction. My mom was a preschool teacher. So yeah, I think my parents did, my parents, you know, they did a pretty good job. They did their best, the best they could.

Any siblings? Yeah, I got a brother that's 18 months older than me. And then I got a half sister from my dad. And she's like 20 years older than me. Did your parents stay together your whole childhood? No, they were together early on. There's a big age difference. There's like 20 years age difference. But yeah, they split up when I was like 12, I think.

Do you feel like that had a big impact on your life or were you old enough where it didn't necessarily affect you? I don't know if it really, I don't really think it had that big of an impact on me. I think towards the end of their marriage, it was kind of like you knew that things were coming to an end anyway. So when they did finally get divorced, it was like, you know, whatever. Yeah.

Before they got divorced, what were the family dynamics? Did you guys struggle for money? Did you guys go on family vacations? What did that look like? No, not at all. My parents, I definitely didn't hurt for anything growing up, especially as a young, super young. When I was in Virginia, we eventually moved to South Carolina when I was 12 or 13. And I think that was about the time where they got divorced and everything. But of course you want your parents to be together, but...

I think I was already old enough to understand that it just wasn't going to work out. So yeah, I don't think it had too much of a bad effect on me. My parents, like my dad, made plenty of money, so we didn't really struggle like that. How would people describe you as a kid? I think as a kid, since early on, I think I was a pretty good kid when I was really young.

But I don't know what happened exactly, but I can remember, I can't really remember a time where I was, where I was like a really good, really, really good kid. Like I've always been mischievous, you know, even if I wasn't really bad, bad, I'd always been just always trying to push my, push my boundaries and push the limits. And I think that's, that's probably the thing that got me

you know, headed down the wrong path is I'd looked at all the grownups and the adults and they're all telling me, Oh, you got to do this, this, and this, you know, you got to work and go to college and, um, get a good job. And when I was a kid, I just looked up at that. I remember specifically thinking like, I don't want any of this. Like all these things that they're telling me is how you're, you know, how you're supposed to live just did not resonate with me. I was not inspired to, to,

you know, do well in school or anything like that. Do you remember the first time you got in trouble? Even if it was minor, but just like the first time, you know, you got yourself in some hot water. Um, well, yeah, I think I can remember. So I had been maybe, I know it was an elementary school and I had this teacher that was just, she was just a nasty lady. You know, she was a very mean person, you know?

and nobody really liked her and she was just, you know, she just gave us a hard time all the time. And we had a field trip and me and my friend, my best friend at the time, we're walking around, we found some nails and we decided we were going to put them under her tire. I think we must've been like, like what fourth, fifth grade and, uh, put nails under her tire and good, good thing she saw them before she backed over them. But that was like,

Probably the first time I ever really got in trouble. You guys got caught for it? Yeah. Wait, how'd you get caught? She saw, I guess either she saw him or someone saw us put them under, we were little kids. Yeah. But besides that, like we, we ran around the neighborhood. We, uh, you know, vandalized stuff. We, um,

We were always just getting into stuff that we weren't supposed to. How was the neighborhood you grew up in? Was it like a good community? Yeah, I think Newport News, Virginia is, you know, some towns you got to, you like got the pockets of bad that you got to kind of look for. Like Newport News, Virginia is the city where you got to really search high and low to find a decent part. You know, the whole city is not the greatest. But yeah.

I think the neighborhood we lived in was pretty, you know, it was pretty safe. Mom always told us not to, you know, you can ride your bikes to the shopping center, but don't go past that. And of course, like we didn't listen. But, um, yeah, I think, I think the, like the little area we in was not, um, wasn't too bad, but it was definitely rough, a rough town. What were your friends like? And did you have a lot of them? Yeah, I had a lot of friends. Um,

So growing up when I was that age, all I wanted to do was skateboard. I was always into art and always liked to draw and stuff. So in school, I'd be drawing and getting in trouble for not doing my homework. And then when I got off, I'd be, you know, skateboarding around, just, you know, doing the kid thing. Did you want to go to school for art or anything like that? Anything creative-wise? Like college? Honestly, just school in general never sat well with me.

Um, anything about like an established curriculum and all that, like I was, my first real passion for art was like in graffiti and like, I guess I was probably more of a vandal than artist at that point, but there was something in me that always wanted to express myself and always paint something or, or draw or whatever. But yeah,

I don't think I ever had it in my mind that that's what I wanted to do when I got older. Definitely the men in my family were, they were not, there was no way that they would support me like going into the arts because you just can't make money. You know, that was the view on art when I was growing up. You're a starving artist. You're not going to make money. You need to do something that's going to be guaranteed to make money.

um, Newport news, Virginia, um, most of the people there either in the military or you're, um, in the shipyard building, building ships, cause it's got the biggest, um, ship building. It's the biggest ship building area in the country. So I think it's very blue collar in, in, um, in that most of the men are about, you know, let's,

Go to work. Let's grind it out. Let's do this type thing. Like it wasn't too much opportunities in the arts or, or a lot of, a lot of school for the arts in that area. So what was your alternative? What did you decide to do? So I, like I said, I just never liked school. So I did the bare minimum to get by and that's, that, that's pretty much it. And so about that point, I,

We moved to South Carolina. We moved to Charleston, South Carolina. And that was, I think, eighth grade or seventh grade. So moved to Charleston. I think this is where I really, you know, we really kind of started getting in a little bit more trouble. Charleston, South Carolina is one of those places that,

If you don't grow up there and you don't have like a family name that everybody knows it's like that old southern money type thing or if you don't if nobody knows your family name and you just just move there you're not really gonna fit in with the with most of the people there, so I never really would have fit in with that crowd anyways, so I just kind of you know I kind of started hanging out with the rejects, you know I started hanging out with the with the pothead kids I started hanging out with the skateboarder kids and

And you know what? I loved it. I loved being in a city like that, that you could walk around and explore. There's endless things to do and endless ways to get in trouble. Me and my friends just used to skateboard all over town. We'd get the homeless people to buy us beer. And that's pretty much what we did. We went to school as little as we could. And the rest of it, we were just pretty much free reign. I think at that point, my parents were...

So focused on their own lives and things that they had to do and they were going through divorce and everything like that. They didn't really have too much time or attention to pay towards us. So we kind of just, you know, did whatever we wanted. Do you think that's why you needed like some extra supervision and care on you? I think if I had somebody that...

And I definitely don't want to put this on my parents because they really did try to do, they, they tried so many different things to get me right, but I just wasn't receptive to any of the stuff. I think if I had somebody positive that I could relate to, then I might have taken their, their advice. But, you know, a lot of times you have people that you can't really relate to and they're telling, Oh, you need to clean your life up. You need to do this. You need to do that. And you,

It's like, bro, you don't know who I am or what I'm going through. So I can't relate and I can't really take any advice from you. But yeah, I think if I had a mentor that was successful in the things that I was interested in, I think that would probably have helped me out a little bit. Did you dabble in any drugs or alcohol in high school? In high school? Yeah. So in... I was always like...

From the time I was very, very young, I started smoking weed and, you know, smoking weed, drinking, having a good time. It was mainly like it was mainly a party for me. It wasn't like I was a drug addict. I just like to, you know, I like to get messed up and I like to have fun, you know, go to parties and do all that kind of stuff. But it wasn't really it wasn't really that bad of a of a drug thing at first for me.

it kind of took a little bit more, just more of a progression to get there to the harder drugs. Do you end up graduating high school? No, I didn't. I, uh, I was almost on my senior year and I got pulled out of, out of high school and I didn't get a finish. Who pulled you out? Your parents or? Yeah. So anyway, so like I was saying, we, I was like a,

you know, I was, I was a bad, I wasn't, I was a bad kid, but more like a mischievous kid, you know, like a little knucklehead. I wasn't really doing anything that extremely bad. Like we, you know, we ran around and did, you know, kids stuff like, like everybody does. And, um, but things all kind of changed by the time I turned, I think I turned 16, 17 things. There was one incident that, that

was, I would say was the catalyst for my, my real downfall. And it was, it's a story I didn't, I didn't know if I was going to share, but I think it's probably the other things won't really make sense unless I shared the story. You can share with us. But, um, so anyway, we were living at my mom's house on, um, in Charleston. And so I had a, there was a girl that, um,

my brother used to hang out with and whatever. And she came over and she brought another girl over that we haven't, I hadn't seen since I was in middle school. And anyway, so she came over and we kind of, you know, hit it off or whatever. It was no real, it was just, you know, fun kid stuff, whatever. Nothing serious. So she came over and then she left and then

A couple days later, she came back over and hung out. And then I'd see her like once a week, every once in a while. This went on for like three or four weeks. And so me and my brother and one of our friends were hanging out at my mom's house. And we're kind of partying. We're just like, you know, we're drinking. We're smoking some weed, like having a good time, whatever. And this girl starts calling my phone.

she keeps blowing up my phone and all of us are like, dude, we don't want that girl over here right now. She's going to kill her vibe. We're just trying to hang out. So anyway, she just keeps on calling, calling, calling, calling. And I'm like, bro, like, like, no, I'm not doing this. So that went on, I think about 30 minutes later, I hear a pop, pop, pop, pop, pop at my front door. And I'm like, damn, this girl just really rolled up to her house and she's just going to knock on the door. Like,

whatever so I turned the music down low and I turned the lights down and everything and so we're all sitting on the couch and the way the house was there was a door in the front you walk through there's a kitchen on the left and then a living room on the right and there's these big sliding glass doors on the back of the house so she went around the back of the house and she's knocking on the back of the door you know looking through the big glass doors at us and I'm like I guess I gotta let this chick in

So my brother's like, no, I'm just, I'm like, dude, she's right there. I got to let her in. So anyway, I slide the door open. She takes like two steps in the house and my front door just boom, like two kicks, boom, boom, door flies open. There's like four dudes that run up in the house. And you know, he, the one guy he's running straight towards me.

And I didn't even think about it. I just clocked them in the clock. They're running in. They're trying to, they're trying to do something. I don't even never seen the dudes before in my life. Don't even know what's going on, but I know they're, they're like on some bullshit. So they ran, I clocked the one guy in the face and his front tooth just knocked right out like a, like a cartoon character. Boom. Anyway. So I look over me or me and this guy are tussling. We're, we're fighting on the, um, in the living room. Um,

Just the house is getting wrecked. I look over. I kind of got this one guy a little bit subdued and whatever. And I look over and one of them's got my brother, uh,

he's pinned up against the the kitchen counter and he's just dude just beating the shit of my brother boom boom boom boom boom so I go over and One guy's blocking me it like blocking the doorway to get in the kitchen I can't get through and I'm like bro get the fuck out of the way So then me and him start fighting I'm fighting him now the guy that I was just beating up on like gets back behind me and he's you know He's jumping on me. We're so we're all in this tussle and

And I'm like, dude, y'all just get the fuck out of here. Get the fuck out of here. Like y'all win, whatever. Y'all just got to, you know, y'all got to get out of here. Anyway, this just went on and on and on. Like it went from one person fighting this person and this person. And, you know, at this point it's, it's getting to the point where like, I don't know what's going on. Like, where's this going to end? You know, like, are these people coming? Did they come in to try to kill us? Did they come in to try to rob us?

I don't know. All I heard was when he came in, he was like, who is it? Where is he? So apparently he came in because that was the girl's crazy boyfriend that they come chasing. They were still together? I guess. I didn't even know that she had a boyfriend. She certainly wasn't acting like she had a boyfriend. Anyway, so this is where things kind of took a...

a turn for the worst. So one of them's got my brother and I can't really see this, but this is what happened after I can, after I put the pieces together, but you know, in a high intensity situation like that, you're just trying to, you're trying to survive, you know, it's, it's four on two right now. And we're, you're trying to, you're just trying to survive. Um,

So one of them had my brother pinned on the ground and he had his knees like over his arms like this. One of them's kicking him and dude's just like beating the shit out of his face. So I guess my brother reached in his, to his side right here and he had a big folding buck knife and managed to get it open and stabbed up just, um, so I heard one of them, he stabbed me, he stabbed me. So, um,

One of the kids gets up and he's like stumbling. I say kids either. I think they were like 19. I was 16 and my brother was 18 stumbling this way, this way. I'm stealing all kinds of blood going on. Um,

The girl is in the bathroom and she's bleeding. I'm like, what in the fuck is, you know, just what the fuck just happened? So immediately my brother, he, in his face, he's like eyes swollen shut. Like they beat him up real bad. So he gets on the phone. He's calling the law. He's like, listen, I need somebody. I need somebody down here. I need like these people just broken in my house. And I think I killed one of them. And I'm like, what, what are you like? What, what does that even mean?

And so I remember I looked at the girl and she somehow got in the middle and got stabbed in the ass. Yeah. And there was like a big old chunk of like, I don't know if it was fat or coagulated blood or something just like flopped out on the ground. It was, it was a crazy, crazy ordeal. So at this point I'm like, dude, I gotta, I'm, I'm like trying to figure, I'm trying to like, this just came out of nowhere. It's like me and you just sitting here and all of a sudden this is happening and

So anyway, I walk out front and I see one guy, he's like, he's holding his abdomen, just like trying to walk, but he's like, he's, you know, messed up. And the other two friends just hauled ass, like everybody else hauled ass and like left their friend. So I get out to the end of the driveway and I'm kind of like holding his, I'm like, dude, like

Like I see, you know, at this point I see blue lights in the distance. I'm like, bro, just fucking like, are you good? He's like having trouble breathing and everything. And here come the cops. They're zooming up, zooming up the street. Cop pulls up, puts his gun on me. You know, I got blood on my hands. I got, it just looks crazy. And this guy's obviously really hurt.

So he pulls the gun and he's like, you know, put your, put your hands up, put your hands up. So I put my hands up. And at this point the kid fell down, like on the side of the street, like rolled over in the, you know, in the side of the, on the side of the road. And I'm like, dude, like the homeboys hurt real bad. Like y'all need to like get you. And so they just ran, his partner ran up to me, tackled me on the ground. I'm like, yo, like,

Let me explain like let me explain the story these people broke in my house Like I like I don't even know what's going on. I was like, but y'all need to help this kid I'm telling you he's hurt bad. So they handcuffed me throw me in the back of a police car They go in the house get my brother I see him come out with handcuffs and he goes in the back of another police car And my view i'm sitting in the back of the cop car But I can see the kid on the road and nobody's helping him. He's just sitting there like gurgling um

So finally the cop, I'm like, yo, like an ambulance comes and like the ambulance finally comes and they're sitting there talking like nobody's even really checking on this kid. Finally, they go over there to the kid and they grab them and like, you know, try to do the little chest rub on them. And they're like, like, dude, this, this, he's dead. He died. Yeah. So anyway, I remember, you know, there's some times in life where shit happens and

And you know that right then forever life is not going to be the same, you know? So even though this was obviously like a self-defense, like a home invasion, you know, gone wrong. They get my brother and my brother's telling the story. They get the girl. She's telling the same story. Everybody's telling the same, you know, the same story. Like we're sitting here minding our business. She knew a little bit more than they, than we knew. Cause she almost like set us up.

for this whole thing to happen. Yeah. Cause how would they know where you lived? All of that. Exactly. Exactly. So, um, I go down, you know, they take me down to the station. I'm still, I'm a minor at this point. I don't even think I was, I might've been 17. If not, I was about to turn 17. Um, they take my brother and like, I can't, I'm, I'm like, I'm shocked. I'm in, I'm shell shocked right now. Like I can't put two thoughts together. I just don't, I don't,

When something that traumatic happens, you're trying to process and you're just in a state of like a state of shock. Like what, what in the fuck just happened? So anyway, they let me go back with my, with my mom and them because my brother, you know, was like this, you know, this is what happens. Then I'm the one that, that did it and whatever. So get back to the house. There's news coming.

There's news crews, there's reporters out there, there's a helicopter flying around in the sky, all this stuff. The next morning, first thing on every news channel, one person murdered and two stabbed. And they had my brother's name on the news saying,

um he's you know this per this person's this man uh murdered this person and and attempted murdered on this other on these other two people and i'm like dude this is not this is not what happened like there's murder is not the word to be used in this situation but that's the messed up thing with with media and with news and when you're on the wrong side they always they'll

Just to make a story, they will smash your name out to make you look so bad. And they made him on there looking like he was some kind of serial killer or something. So he...

sat in the county jail for about 45 days until they had this preliminary trial and he got when he when that came up he was he got clean and they let him go oh so they cleared him yeah they cleared him especially in like southern states like south carolina someone breaks into your house and they get killed prices keep going up these days it feels like being on an elevator that only goes up going up

But not at Metro. We're pushing the down button. Going down. We've lowered prices. Get one line of 5G data for $40. Period. That's 20% lower. And you get a free Samsung 5G phone when you bring your number. Only at Metro. Five-year guarantee on eligible plans. Exclusions apply. See website for details. Not available if at Metro or with T-Mobile in the past six months. Tax applies. ♪

Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website, to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into... Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com slash special offer.

Every idea starts with a problem. Warby Parker's was simple. Glasses are too expensive. So they set out to change that. By designing glasses in-house and selling directly to customers, they're able to offer prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Warby Parker glasses are made from premium materials like impact-resistant polycarbonate and custom acetate. And they start at just $95, including prescription lenses. Get glasses made from the good stuff.

Stop by a Warby Parker store near you. Like, it's self-defense. Yeah, I interviewed someone that got jammed up. His name's Chip Williamson. It was like he killed his ex-wife's new lover because he confronted him in his own home and he ended up getting charged with murder. But then he later... This was, I think, in South Carolina, but he later got acquitted. Really? Before it never even went to a trial, but because of COVID and everything, it got dragged out for years. Yeah, so this guy...

At this point, like I said before, like I was a mischievous kid, you know, I was doing whatever, but I wasn't like a bad kid. And like when, with the drugs and everything, I did drugs because they were fun at that point. I think, you know, the sad part that a lot of people don't really mention is like a lot of times people get into drugs because it feels good, you know, because it's fun. Like it doesn't always have to start from, um,

trying to cope with something. However, now at this point in my life, after this whole situation, I look back on it now and I see like a traumatized kid that, you know, what are you supposed to do now? Like your name's been on the news. Everybody knows you now as being like the kids that, the kids that killed this guy and got away with it almost. So there was no more, yeah, come over to

you know, come over, we're having a party at my parents' house. There's none of that. We don't get invited to any functions or anything like that. We're kind of like pushed out to the outskirts of people. The only people that will really hang with us now are the like true bad kids and drug kids. And you know, that, that whole, that whole circle. And from being, from now trying to deal with this in my life, I'm, um,

I am using drugs for the first time that I can clearly say I was using them to like cope with my, with, with this situation. I was overwhelmed with anxiety. I was overwhelmed with, I guess, PTSD, whatever. And the only thing that would make me feel okay was to either drink myself to oblivion, drugs, like the whole thing. What kind of drugs are you using? So, uh,

At this point, I think mainly like drinking a lot and probably taking, you know, taking some pills like Xanax and pain pills and all that. And eventually that,

I graduated from using pain pills to doing heroin. Were your parents aware of your drug use? Yeah, I think them too. I think that whole situation right there was just traumatic for everybody too. You got to think, they're putting on the news that your kid did this. So they're kind of messed up by it too. And they're going through, they're trying to rebuild their own lives. They're kind of recently divorced and they're trying to figure out how to

how to live, like as they're trying to build new relationships and everything. So at this point we were just done like with our parents, like it was kind of like, not that we got kicked out, but it was like, okay, now I'm, you know, you're on your own type thing. So being that we had this reputation, um, I just got, I started just living, like I started living on the outskirts of society really. So, um,

I was selling weed. I was, you know, doing whatever just to, like, I didn't really hold down any jobs or anything like that because I was usually too messed up. And I, the only thing I could really do to make money was, you know, sell drugs. And that's kind of just the way it went for a while. And yeah, I think the drug use just,

Kept getting worse and worse and worse because now you're, you're, you know, covering up trauma with the drugs. And then you're, you know, at the same time causing all these other situations in your life from the drugs. And yeah, it's just, it was just, I was just going down real fast. And I, at this point, this was, this was before like all the fentanyl and everything like that, but people were still like dying from heroin and,

Um, I overdosed and died three times and I was just in so much pain. I didn't care if I was, if I was alive or I was dead. Like I just, I just, it didn't matter to me. I was just like, whatever, like life is, life sucks and I don't really care what happens next. Did your brother experience something similar too? Or what happened to him? Yeah, I think we both did, but I think he probably had it a lot worse. Yeah.

because he was the main person that was, you know, afflicted by this whole thing. And he went down the same path. He, you know, got on drugs and everything. And I don't think that he ever, you know, got any help or anything like that. But I think it was just a long, a long journey of, of drug use. Why was your parents solution to this pulling you out of school? My parents solution to pulling me out of school? Yeah. Um,

Like why not keep you in school, try to get things on track, maybe go to a rehab around that age? So, yeah, so that did, that did happen. So yeah, after this whole thing, I got real, you know, I got bad off on heroin and, and this was a really fast progression, like zero to 100. Like I just, the months after that, the month or the year after that, I was just going down. Like I was going to, I was going to kill myself, you know?

So they did, they, they put me in a rehab. I went out to a rehab and stayed out there to rehab for about a year, almost, almost a full year. And I finished, I got, I graduated, I got my GED out there. It was in New Mexico. And yeah, I really did at that point, I felt so much better after a year. Cause there was things, there was therapy, there was groups, there was all this stuff and,

And I think I worked on myself a lot or I was trying to, I really felt like I was good. And when it was time to come home, like I was a hundred percent convinced that I was just, you know, done with, done with that lifestyle and done with the, uh, with the drugs and the alcohol and the whole, the whole shebang, but came back home, came back to Charleston, got around the same old people, same old friends. And then just like, I'm,

Within weeks, I'm back. I'm right back where I left off. Yeah, who you surround yourself with is a big part in a lot of individual stories. Absolutely. How old were you when you got back? Probably before I was 18, probably 17. Oh, so when did they pull you out of high school? Sooner than senior year? Like 16? Yeah, I think it was...

I'm pretty sure it was the beginning of my senior year. Okay. Yeah. So probably like almost 17 or around that? Yeah, something like that. Okay. So you get back, do you go and live back with your parents or do you get a job? No, I lived by myself. I got a place at a big house that was kind of close to the College of Charleston campus. Then I was just renting a room in there. And at that point I had a little job. I had a job like doing some construction stuff and I was like making decent money and

whatever but i still like being at that it was like a party house it's like animal house you know and we everybody would just there was just a party all the all day long every day so you're one of those guys that wasn't at college but lived on the college campus yeah yeah you could say that so i was college age and i probably looked like i could have um been at the college but i was not and um

Yeah, just me when I'm, you know, when I was that age, there's no way I'm going to be at work at 5 o'clock in the morning, you know, if I've been partying all night and doing whatever. So I guess it went from that to, you know, you have a job, you're kind of stable, and then you lose the job, and then you're just kind of back whiling out, whiling out again. So in the meantime, coming back...

I was, I got in a bunch of trouble like here and there, but nothing really stuck. Um,

I got like a assault charge because I got in a fight with my upstairs neighbor. I got a strong arm robbery charge because one of the friends of the kid that got killed, I was at someone's house and he came up behind me and tried to choke me from the back of a couch. So he came up behind the back of the couch and tried to choke me. And my girlfriend at the time jumped on his back and tried to claw his eyes out and all this crazy stuff. And then we got in a fight and then

He lost and then she like ran his pockets and didn't say anything. And then, you know, two days later, I'm going to jail for strong arm robbery because she, you know, stole this dude's stuff. Anyway, that got dropped. Yeah, I think we got I got locked up for D for a DUI, like got my license taken away. It was just a constant. It was a constant trial. I never not had any.

some kind of case looming over me. And where are your parents in all this? Have they given up on you? Yeah, I think they pretty much just...

So coming back and failing from rehab was the final straw. Keeping everything in chronological order is really tough because there was a couple rehabs and there was a couple chances and there was a couple short stints in jail. Of course. And then at some point your parents have to be like, listen, just because you're ruining your life, I'm not going to ruin my life too. I've tried to do everything we can for you.

but at this point, like, I'm sorry, you know, like I've, I think they, they literally tried to do everything in the world for me and you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Absolutely. And I don't think like looking back on it, I don't think that I, you know, when I was living that I understood like trauma and, you know, um,

the drug use being a symptom of like of PTSD and, and, and all this, all this, um, anxiety and everything. But, um, yeah, I think as I've gotten older, I've kind of like trying to figure out why things went the way that they did. But, um, I don't know where I was going with that. So share with us, uh, what exactly happened that would land you in prison. Okay. So, and then how old you were.

Okay. So this let's fast forward this. So I went a couple of years like this, like, you know, messing up a little bit, going to rehabs, you know, doing good for a little bit. An addict's lifestyle. Yeah. Going back, you know, doing the right thing, going back to jail. Like it was just this constant, like, like rollercoaster. So I guess let's fast forward like two or three years of, of living like that. So now I'm 21. Um,

Same old thing. At this point, I'm just at a low point. I don't really give a shit. I'm doing lots of drugs. I'm drinking all the time. And I had two friends that I hung out with, and we were broke. We didn't have any money. And then someone told us, hey, listen, I got a way you can make some money. I know...

I know some people that are, you know, going to be coming into town and, you know, it's these, they're girls, they're coming from, they went up to Columbia, South Carolina, they picked up a little pack and they're coming back. So when they come back, it's going to be easy thing. Just go ahead and, and, uh, you know, do your thing and get them. Like rob them. Yeah. So they put us, you know, through the grapevine, I kind of got put up to this and hit the first one.

you know, don't really think anything of it. We hit them. There's like nothing that we were looking for in their car. Like they didn't, we didn't get shit. We probably got like probably less than a hundred dollars and that, so that wasn't enough. So then we kind of, we kind of went on a spree of, of robbery, of armed robberies. Like,

Some of them were random. Some of them were like a little bit targeted, trying to get drugs or trying to get people that had money. Or, you know, one of the things that we were doing was getting like the college age kids. They were like selling drugs on campus and we knew that we could rob them. There wouldn't really be any repercussions from it. So we hit a couple of things like that. So that night...

Yeah, we hit a couple licks. And afterwards, when we did it, I had sunglasses on. I had a bandana. I had gloves on. I was full disguised up. We got the money. Everything else that was incriminating, like IDs, purses, whatever, we put in a garbage bag. And with our disguises and all that kind of stuff and tied them up in trash bags and went behind a restaurant.

you know, turn the car off for a while and threw the bag in the dumpster at the restaurant. So we didn't have anything incriminating on us. All we had was like money and maybe, you know, maybe a little bit of weed or something. So about an hour later, we're pulled up at a convenience store going in to get some beers. And well, all three of us went in the store and

I'm the first one out. I'm walking towards the car. Cop car pulls up behind me, blue lights. I'm like, oh shit. But I'm like, dude, I don't have, there's, I've got nothing on me. There's no way for me to get in trouble. Like I don't, there's, there's nothing to link me to anything. I have nothing on me. So I'm held at gun or not at gunpoint, but he just like detained. He's like, just wait right here. Here comes my friend. He comes out the store. He's like, yo, come on over here.

And they separated us to put me in the back of a cop car. They put him in the back of another cop car and they're kind of talking to us. And I'm like, dude, like, I don't, you know, like that, you know, they're saying like, have you heard of any robberies that have gone around town? I'm like, no, I've got like, I got nothing. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. So I'm feeling like we might, we might skate on this. And I look over and the girl, the third party was a girl. Third person there was a girl and she was the driver for us.

She's coming out the, uh, the corner store there. And one of the cops, she's like standing there for a second. And then she walks towards us. And one of the cops like goes over there. Hey, do you know these guys? She's like, oh yeah, that's my car. And I'm seeing her talking like to the cop and the cop starts grilling her. And another one comes over and starts grilling her. And I see tears start coming down her face. I say, oh shit, that's, that's all it's over now, buddy.

So she gets in the back of the cop car and takes them back to the dumpster where we threw away all the incriminating shit. You guys should have burned it. Dude, we were not thinking that much. Obviously. We thought enough to get thrown in that dumpster. Yeah, exactly. It wasn't, this was not, these were not well thought out, planned out,

robberies. These were just like spur of the moment. We just need a little bit of whatever. What was the timeframe? Like how, or is it days apart, hours apart, weeks apart? This was all the same. All the same day that you guys hit this? This was all the same day. So you robbed the same girls on the same day too? Yeah. Okay. It was a, it was a progression. Like I think it took us like, you know, a couple hours, but we hit this, hit this spot, hit this spot, hit this spot. Honestly, didn't get

Didn't get any like anything serious like money was and for weapons. You said it was armed. Would you have guns? Yeah, both that we both had a gun. Okay. Um, so yeah the girl took them back to the dumpster where we threw away all of our incriminating things guns the gloves the the disguises the the IDs like so at this point like there's nothing weak like I'm you know, I'm dead like it's it's over with and

I didn't really know what was happening at the time, but this is what's getting explained to me a couple of days later by my lawyer. The other kid I was with, you know, I'm sitting in jail. I'm like, you know, I ain't saying shit. I'm going to tough this out. While the other two were just like singing like canaries. And both of them pretty much told everything and got, you know, it helped them out pretty good. So I sat down.

So at this point, I was in county jail for about three months. When did they arrest you that same night? Yeah, I went from there straight to jail. No, but like that, that they brought her to the dumpster, you guys were already arrested. Yeah, we were in the cop car when they came. It was like an hour or so later after they took her, they took us straight to jail. Okay. So yeah, I'm sitting in county jail and I'm like, things are starting to like, you know, all the drugs and alcohol are wearing off and I'm like...

Dude, this is, this is really, this is really, really bad. Most of the times I've been to jail, I'm like, oh, whatever. I'm not really thinking like looking at serious time. My lawyer came to me and explained to me, he was like, you know, in the state of South Carolina, each armed robbery is minimum of 10 years, maximum of 30 years. So right now with four armed robberies, you're looking at what, 120 years, if you got the max.

So I'm like, damn, dude, this is not good. And I just remember sitting in my cell and being like, dude, I'm like, this is it. It's over with. So my lawyer came to me one day and he said, you know what? I've got something that we can do that might help you out. He was like, you're young and the judge might give you sympathy if I get you out of this jail and put you in a rehab. And he said, when

Every day that you serve in that rehab is possibly a day that's going to be coming off your sentence. So I went to rehab in Louisiana when I did the program as a 90 day program. I got out of that program and they say, you can't stay here anymore, but you can go to our other facility in Oklahoma and train to be a, a counselor. I said, yeah, well, I'd rather do this than sit in jail. Yeah.

So I went out there, I got licensed as a, um, a drug and alcohol counselor. I got licensed to work in the detox facility. I got all these, I was doing every single class that I possibly could so that when I went to court, I would, you know, hopefully the judge would, would give me some leniency anyway. So it's time to go to court. I come back home.

The next day I'm supposed to go to court, we get a call that morning saying, hey, the court date's been postponed. You're not coming in for another two or three months. So I'm like, shit. Now I'm back in Charleston and I'm like, I've got to do the right thing. So that lasted for a couple days and I didn't really get right crazy back into everything, but...

I couldn't stay with my dad anymore. That's where I was supposed to stay. He kind of kicked me out. So now I'm back on the street. I'm kind of running around. I was at a Wendy's, and I was coming out of Wendy's. And right when I stepped foot outside, an unmarked cop car is right outside. And they turn on their lights and come out and put their guns on me. And they're like, drop the Wendy's, drop the Wendy's, drop the Wendy's. So I'm like this. I'm like, dude, he said, drop it or I'm going to shoot. I was like, pfft.

So they take me and they put me in jail and a detective comes to talk to me. He's like, yeah, he's telling me the story about an armed robbery, another armed robbery that took place. I'm like, dude, what are you like? This, this doesn't even make sense. So when I got, when I came back home, they locked me up on another armed robbery that I didn't do. I don't even know what it

What happened, I wasn't even in the area. It had nothing. It didn't stick once I finally did go to jail. But the problem is I went to jail on an arm... I was in arm robbery on it. I was in jail for arm robbery when I'm waiting to go to trial for some arm robberies that happened two years before. Right? So that doesn't look good. Even though I'm not guilty of these robberies. But they like officially charged you with it. Yeah, they charged me with it. So...

Yeah. So at this point, you know, my lawyer's pretty much saying like, you're like, you know, sorry, buddy, but all the stuff that we talked about earlier, like with the rehab and everything like that stuff's off the table. So you pretty much just wasted two years. So I go the it's about time to start going to court again. And they're coming at me with pleas came at me with the first plea of 30 years.

And I was like, dude, you can stick that where, you know, where like, I'm not that I don't care. I'm never signing a 30 year plea. So I think it was a month later they came back and they said, okay, 15 years. And you know, that's what we're going to, I said, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm not going to take that. Um, third time they came back, they said, okay, we're going to give you, we'll give you 10 years, um, for these ones in 2011. And, um,

But you're still going to have to face this charge right here that, you know, in what was it, 2022 or whatever? 2013, right? Or excuse me, 2013. I was like, dude, no, we're not doing that. So finally they came back and they're like, all right, we'll just do, we'll do 10 years. We'll run it all together. If you take the plea right now, I said, shit, whatever.

I mean, it's not going to get any better than this, so I took the plea. Wait, why would you agree to that if you had nothing to do with the new one, which is the only way your old charges got jacked up to 10 years? Pretty much my lawyer told me, you're 100% dead on the armed robberies from 2011. There's no way you're getting off of this. But that's only because you got a new charge, right? Yeah. Because before he was optimistic. Yeah, but at this point...

I don't know what it was. Did they have something on you? No, it was a hundred percent bullshit. And I can tell, I'll admit, you know, I've done, I did my time for these armed robberies and I'll tell you that I did them. And if I did another one, I would tell you that I did it too. So anyway, 10, 10, it was the best I was going to get. I talked to everybody. I got a second lawyer's opinion. He was like, dude, if you can get 10, that's a miracle.

He's like, there's people going up the road all the time with 20 years. And, you know, South Carolina doesn't play that. Like they will put you, it'll put you under the jail. So. Yeah. They're, they're hard on, uh, the armed robberies. You ever hear of jumpsuit Pablo? He got booked in South Carolina for armed robberies his first time. Really? He robbed a couple of gas stations, but like in the same night and he got 10 years. Really? He was 18 or 19. Yeah. They don't play. Mm-mm.

I'm just, were you, were you hanging out with those individuals that committed the so-called third robbery or whatever, or second robbery? With the, the one from the couple of years later? Yeah. Like, how did they tie you to it? Someone must've said something. It was a hundred percent bullshit. Really what they, what, what it was, I was supposed to be gone at this rehab and whatever. And I came back to go to the, to court and they pushed my date back and

I'm not trying to get all tenfold conspiracy theories because I don't think I'm that important, but I do believe that they wanted me to go to prison. And whether it was from all these other things or whatever, but they wanted me to go. So I think that somebody had to go down for this shit and it was easier just to pin it, just to put it all on me. And there was no... There's times in your life where you know that

this is the best thing that I can do is take this plea. And I kicked myself in the ass for it for years after that, because I thought that maybe I could have gotten something better. But at the time I felt like taking the, taking the 10 years was the best that I could do. How do you feel now about that? Well, I mean, I look back on it now and it's kind of water under the bridge. Like, yeah, I spent my entire twenties in prison. You can say I spent it from,

20 really 21 to 31 if you count the re the two years in rehab, so Yeah, I they it took a lot of my life away But I think that that's the only thing that there was no that I was just I was out of control There was nothing that that was gonna that was gonna fix me except for like facing some serious consequences And that's just the that's just what happened. That's what had to be it had to be I was I was just at the I was at the end of the road I was just like I just kept got this has got to be over with and

And I think foolishly as a, so at this point I'm 23, you don't really know how long and what you're about to sign up. You don't know what you're really signing yourself up for going to prison for this amount of time. Like you don't really know. And yeah, so that's, that, that's what it was. So you take the 10 years, where do they send you? Yeah. So I take the 10 years. So, so,

This point I've been sitting back in Charleston County jail for a while. And if anybody knows about Charleston County jail, you don't want to be there. And I just didn't give a shit. Just get me out of this jail. Like, and you're hearing horror stories about prison. You know, South Carolina prison is not, is not, it's like a third world country. Then you're hearing all these horrors. I didn't care. I was like, dude, I've got to get out of this. I've got to get out of this county jail. So yeah. So first, um,

you know, just like everybody, I think most States have like a reception center. They have a huge facility in Columbia, South Carolina called Kirkland. And yeah, I get, I get sent there waiting for my placement on a yard. Um, yeah, Kirkland, Kirkland is a, it's a, I'm just start realizing how bad things start really setting in for me.

Like you look like you're in Auschwitz. Like, dude, they got your, they got these cut, your, um, jumpsuits all frayed on the end. When you go to South Carolina, they shave your head completely bald, um, spray you down with the, with the, uh, with the, uh, lice killer and everything. I mean, it's,

It's rough. Are you allowed to let your hair grow after they shave it? So you always have to be shaved? Not shaved, but it has to be, I think it has to be left like a half inch long. Like a buzz cut. Yeah. So yeah, I'm sitting, I'm like, damn, this, this is, you know, reality is really sitting in. And so for, I think it was 45 or 60 days, I sat there and they don't let you out just to get, you know, just to get a shower. Things are getting pretty rough. I had a

You know, there's no real things going on. Everybody's just pretty locked, pretty locked down. There's really not any movement. So, yeah, we're stuck in the cell pretty much all day, every day. Just get your food through the flap and all that. So, you know, everybody's sitting there and they're saying, you know, you don't want to go to this prison. You don't want to go to this prison. You don't want to go to this place. And...

By the time, just like Charleston County, by the time my placement on a yard came up, I didn't care where they sent me. I just said, I want to get the fuck out of this prison here. So I'm waiting every day. Everything, every Monday, it's a couple days a week they come through and then they read off the names. They'll be like, this name, Lieber, Johnson, you're going to McDougal, Smith, you're going to Perry. They just start listing off names.

the, um, places and they come to me and they finally come to my room and they say Dobson, Lieber. And I'm like, fuck man. Like out of everywhere you could send me, they send me to the absolute worst institution in South Carolina. So now I'm like, okay, great. Now I'm going to, you know, who knows what's going to happen now. So I get shackled on the bus and we're going down to

And I think people can act as tough as they want to act. But when you actually are on the way to big boy penitentiary, you're, you're going to be scared. And I was especially scared. I was 23 years old. I was a skinny white kid. Like I was just not, I didn't know what was going to happen. Yeah. We get down there and it's, it's kind of like I expected. I think it was, it was probably worse than I expected, but,

Got down there. My room had no air conditioning. The windows were broken out of it, had expanded metal, you know, metal with holes in it. So when it rained, it rained on you. At night, there's mosquitoes flying around in your room. Like it's, it's a rough, it's a rough, rough situation to be living in. Who approached you when you got there? So South Carolina is really tight on like where you're from.

you know, there's a lot of, there is a lot of gangs and everything like that. But the first people that approached me, like I was like, I'm from Charleston. And, you know, that's another thing people, if, if you're from Charleston, you're pretty much locked in with everybody from Charleston and nobody else around like that's not from Charleston is going to have any way to, to, uh, you know, penetrate the, the kind of like Charleston bond we got going on. And is it mixed race? Yeah.

Yeah, really. Yeah. It's really not like, of course, like, you know, you'll have the thing like there's I think South Carolina is just so at least when I first came down in the lower part of the state, it was just so majority black that I don't there wasn't too many big like.

there wasn't like a big population of Hispanic people. There wasn't like a big population of white people. There was, you know, and there was kind of a mix up going on. There wasn't, it wasn't like out West where everybody's super racially segregated. What was the most surprising thing to you about that prison? So I got there, you know, I'm on the bus and everybody's, you know, the bus, everybody's talking shit.

Oh, when y'all get there, y'all better, there's people that are, that are fresh coming in and there's people that have been there and there's people that come from other prison prisons going there. So when you get there, you got to get a knife ASAP because they, they're killing people down there. And I was like, shit. So I got there, I get, I get in my room, my roommate's got a life sentence. He's like 60 something years old. He'd always joke. He'd be like, I get out and

In 2076, shit, I'll be 150 years old, still a young man. I was like, oh, damn. That's crazy that they put you guys at the same cell. Yeah, but the crazy thing is that I didn't really, that I got those 10 years and I'm thinking I'm serving in eternity. When I get there, I'm like one of the people with the least amount of time. Everybody's like, oh, you're just passing through. I'm like, what? I'm going to be here for eight and a half years on this 10 years and

And it's like nothing. Everybody's like, oh, it ain't nothing. You know, 45 years, life, life, life, 60 years, like nothing.

People got a lot of time. Yeah, that's something I learned about the feds is they're so quick to hand out 10, 15, 20-year sentences that some people are on like their second 20-year bid. Yeah. Because you do 16 years, say, on 20. You could do two of those or even three. In some cases, if you're 15 years old or 20 years old. It's absolutely crazy. Imagine doing three 20-year sentences. Yeah. Dude, I do. They broke me.

trust me when I after that I'm it's over with buddy I'm done but so I think one of the most surprising things was everybody's talking about getting a knife and I'm thinking about like this prison shank wrapped up dude I asked my roommate he's like yeah go down there and talk to whoever and I go in there I'm like dude like you know I'm here he's like oh you're here to get a knife and I'm like he's like yeah or I'm like yeah and um

He goes under his bed and pulls out his little drawer. And he's got, like, real, like, switchblade knives, like, folding knives, like, from the street. I'm like, what the fuck? I'm like, so is everybody strapped like this? So everybody's strapped like that. They got people with daggone, with things looking like machetes walking around. I'm like, dude, this is not good. So...

Anyway, luckily for me, because my time was going down, I got reclassified to a medium security. So it was like level two. I was originally on level three and then level two. So I got moved to a little bit chiller of a place. And I was there for a while. Did you ever have to use that knife at that first place? No, but I did...

So, man, anyway, this was at the second place. So I get there. The thing about like a serious prison like that, people aren't really playing around as much as they do when you get like lower custodies. You know when you're in a bigger prison like that, that it's not like a fight. People aren't going to go outside and fight. It's going to be like,

If you mess up, like you're, you're playing with your life. Like people really are getting stabbed to death and stuff. So, but I get to the lower, the lower place. And then that's almost like worse than the more security place. Cause you know, if you stay in your lane, you're pretty good. You're not, you're not really going to get, you know, people aren't really going to,

Just saw just single you out like you're minding your own business You're kind of fine like everybody's there to doing long stints of time and everybody's for the most part are pretty chill You get to the lower custody places like it seems like you got a bunch of younger just like knucklehead Knucklehead kids just doing whatever so I got there I could tell that I was being kind of scoped out so

My roommate was like, dude, they're like, I'm telling you right now that you got, you got eyes on you. So don't be getting a bunch of canteen and all that kind of stuff. And you know, just me, I said, fuck it. Like we're, I'm just going to go get my, you know, my bag of canteen. So I got it, put it in my room, came back out and I'm watching. And there's people like kind of circling around, like acting scared. I'm like, dude, I'm not like, I wasn't born yesterday. I know what's going on.

So I walked back to my room and like nobody's, everybody kind of like just walks off or whatever. And I came back out and...

I see them send this little tiny dude in my room, this little skinny dude. Because that's like what they do with these bigger prison gangs. They'll take the youngest, weakest kid and they make them be the crash dummy. Yeah, send off mission. Yeah. So he goes in there and I get up and haul ass. And I go in the room and slam the door behind me. So it's just me and, you know, when you slam the door, the door locks. So it's just me and this little skinny ass dude in there. And I just...

wore his ass out. You know what I mean? Blocked off everybody else and kind of thought that that was a good idea, but it turns out that wasn't a good idea because people really can't take a loss. And I think it's a bigger loss when you're trying to be part of some gang and some skinny white dude just beats the shit out of you and yourself. It's not a good look. So that kind of...

that kind of spurred things off to where, you know, I had a little bit of problems, but it kind of got squashed and whatever. How did it get squashed? Well, we had all that, you know, all that kind of going on, and then it stirs up this whole hornet's nest, and then you got to, you know, have to, there's a lot of people that like to get to be, there's a lot of people that like to be involved in shit they shouldn't really be involved in. And I think that's a big difference between like,

Somewhere like South Carolina and somewhere like California, which doesn't make it any less dangerous, but you have kind of, it's like the blind leading the blind. There's no like real structure. It's like, everybody's just winging it almost. Um,

So, yeah, they they're trying to stir some shit up. Then you have like the Charleston crew and they're all like, no, y'all ain't going to just jump my boy like that. So we all, you know, a bunch of talk. Hi, I'm Kristen Bell. Carvana makes car buying easy. Isn't that right, hun? Dax.

Dax? Sorry, did you know about this seven-day money-back guarantee? A week to evaluate seat comfiness, you say? A week of terrain tests? Yeah, I can test the brake pad resistance at variable speeds. Make sure all the kids' stuff fits nicely? Make sure our stuff fits nicely. Oh, the... Right. Still need to buy the car. Getting ahead of ourselves here. Buy your car with Carvana today. Talking much just bullshit and eventually nothing ever really became of it.

How did you spend the bulk of your time in those years in prison? Were you trying to better yourself? Were you getting into more trouble? What was kind of your mindset? Yeah, so anyway, as time went on, dude, the first two years, like on some real shit, I was just trying to figure out like how am I going to survive in this place? Like I was almost trying to fit in. Like I was trying to be someone that I really wasn't.

I was trying to act tougher and harder than I was. And I just kept on getting in stupid conflicts and getting locked up and all this stuff. And I started drawing again.

And, you know, at first it was just a little, you know, a little bit here, there, like a little, just, just for fun, little scribbles and doodles and whatever. And then I had someone approached me and they said, Hey dude, have you ever like done any portraits? And I'm pretty good at drawing portraits. So I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I started drawing portraits and one in particular, I drew this portrait for this guy. He'd been locked up for a long time and he had an old picture of his daughter, like, like this big. And it might've been 15 year old picture. And it's the last time he's never talked to his daughter, like nothing, like has no communication with his family. They all kind of cut them off.

Anyway, I was like, yeah, dude, I can give it my best try. So I took it and I spent so much time on this thing. And when I got done with it, I was like, dude, this is like, I really knocked this portrait out. So I give it to him. He sends it back home. And like a month later, he comes back to me. Dude, this dude's like tattoos all over his face. Just looks like thugged out, thugged out. Fucking comes in. He's like, dude, I need to talk to you. Fucking starts crying. He's like, bro, like.

i got my daughter coming up here to visit me you know and then you know at the end of the month or whatever he's like i sent that portrait home and everybody's been talking about it and he's like dude i've had all kinds of letters come in he's like so getting him getting me to do that portrait form made such impact in his life like i was like dude this is actually pretty cool

Then all of a sudden I'm doing drawings and then all these people are like are looking at him like dude Like you're starting to get some respect for things that actually mean something all this stuff the fighting and the shit that you did on the street It's bullshit. It doesn't have it doesn't hold any weight There's nothing anybody can do that anybody can be a knucklehead anybody can sell drugs anybody could fight Anybody can stab people like it's it's it doesn't take a there's there's these are all empty things and

At this point, I felt like I was starting to have something to be a little bit proud of. Like I had these, I had, I had something that, that was valuable to people and I was starting to get respect from people that, you know, that, that was actually meaningful. So after drawing, that was like my hustle for a while. I draw portraits, um,

I make a little money on it. How much would you charge for a portrait? It's hard to remember, but not a whole lot. Back in prison, like 20 bucks is a lot of money. So I was probably getting like 20, 30 bucks or something. Did you do cards too? I think at first I used to do cards. Back in the day, I just had a little hustle doing that. But yeah, I started doing portraits. Really started spending all my time drawing portraits.

And something like came, like something was like, I was nurturing something like within my soul. When I'd sit down and draw, I'd get like an escape. I'd sit there and for hours would pass and I wouldn't even think about being in prison. All I would think about is doing these pictures. And then I was getting, feeling a little bit better about myself because I felt like I had something to offer. Yeah, and this went on for a while. I did that for...

Probably six months or so and everybody you know if you if you can draw in prison everybody's gonna come up to you and back dude do tattoos and I had a couple little like kids in the dorm like they're younger dudes in the dorm They would let me kind of practice on them and stuff and practice tattooing. Yeah, and they would be you know, they'd stay don't tell anybody cuz I don't want to like this is just on the low like really did it for

to pass the time. Didn't really do it to, to make them make money. I didn't really see it like that. It was just cool. Like it was like, damn, you know, we're doing some tattoos. We're passing time. Like we're, you know, doing the thing. It was just a, you know, a fun way to pass the time. So the word started getting out. Like, you know, people walk by and say, Oh, that's the tattoo, man. Let me see that. And because I've gotten my drawing up to a pretty high level, um,

that was translating into my tattoos and pretty soon I was getting like, I was getting decent, but I needed to, there was things I just couldn't figure out by myself. And there was a guy across the yard who was like infamous in the department of corrections for his tattoos. Like if you saw his, like you saw someone tied up with the best work, you'd be like, yeah, that's the dude.

So I kind of got my balls up to go approach him at one point. He was on, you know, we're on yard or whatever. And I brought some of my drawings out. I was like, yo, what's up dude? Like, like I've seen some of your, your stuff and whatever. I was like, you want to take a look at some of my drawings and whatever? He's like, yeah, sure, man. So he looked at me, he's like, he's like, yeah, it's pretty, you know, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. Um, and I was like, you know, I started building this like rapport with him a little bit, a little mutual respect. Um,

And eventually I got moved from my dorm over to his dorm into his room and almost had like an apprenticeship under him. He was legit. Like he was a tattoo artist on the street and he really, really, really like knew what he was doing actually.

So at this point, I'm like all in, dude. I'm starting to – I'm getting fired up about like tattooing in general. And I'm not thinking about the street. I'm just thinking about this is a cool way to pass time. I can make some money. I can do whatever. And I'm really like enjoying the –

The whole thing. What was the guards attitude on tattooing? So because I know every prison is different. Yeah. And I've talked to a lot of people about this. I think South Carolina, it's almost seen as like a respectable hustle. You know, there's people making wine. There's people, you know, selling drugs. There's people making knives. There's all this stuff.

If you're doing tattoos, they're like, eh, whatever. I've had COs like sit there and watch me do tattoos and not really give a shit. What were they using for the gun? So I'd use like a, whatever kind of motor you could find. A lot, I'd get them out of the clippers. Yeah, that sounds about as damn good. Yeah, out of the clippers. Like sometimes you get hold of somebody in the maintenance department and they find like a old printer or something and just bust them open. You get like,

50 motors out of it. I think they would use the radio somehow too. Yeah, like the CD players. The clear radios that have the wind in it. Yeah. What about for the needles? What do you guys use? So we would get like the pins that you like a click pin.

Take the spring out, make a candle, and then you hold both ends with toenail clippers and stretch it over the flame until it straightens out. I've never heard of this one before. Yeah. Wow. So we do that. Um...

Me and him got to the point where we would have like a bunch, we'd have like crash dummies of our own. They were making like, they're burning the soot for the ink, making the needles, like collecting all the motors. And then they would have them like hoarding motors and stuff. So if we did get, if we did get shook down and they took our stuff, if they shook you down and South Carolina finds your tattoo shit, they'll take it and then give you like some minor, minor,

Minor charge you might lose like your phone privileges for a couple weeks or something. It's very Nobody really cares. What do you think was the most common tattoo people would ask you to do in there the most common tattoo? loyalty the words loyalty's Tattooed loyalty ten thousands or like maybe respect it was mainly lettering tattoos were the most popular What was the dumbest one you've ever done the dumbest silliest? Oh

Oh God, that's a, that's a loaded question right there. Like would guys put their girl's name on them? I think the dumbest tattoo, I never got this. And I bet you've seen this too, is when people get their prison ID number tattooed on them.

It's actually a good idea. I should go get my prison badge. I have my prison nickname tatted on me. Do you? Yeah, McLovin. Oh, yeah. And I got the portrait done too. What I did was this guy that came on my show, he was an ex-skinhead turned tattoo artist. He had his own shop and I said, listen, if you do something funny on me, I'll promote your shop.

So we went in as like, you want to do this portrait? And he doesn't really do portraits, but it came out great. And we made a video of him doing it and it got like almost a million views on TikTok and hopefully it brought him a lot of business, but it was in Nashville. Yeah. So that's why I said, when you get your shop, like I'll do the same thing. We'll come up with something like silly. Maybe we'll do the prison ID for me. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm down. So yeah, this is how it went. And now I'm,

I think for the first couple of years of being like the tattoo man, like I'm telling you, I started having time started getting a whole lot easier for me. You know, as you know, and I'm sure a lot of your guests, a lot of people watching know, like we can talk about like prison being okay and being cool sometimes, but it's always, there's always drama going on when you're the tattoo man in prison, you're almost untouchable.

Especially if you're a good tattoo man all doesn't matter what gang what color what race whatever they all want tattoos so Nobody wants to get rid of you if any problems start up because a lot of drama starts up out of nowhere Like all of a sudden like someone has a problem with you for nothing. You're like what the fuck? Like I remember one time I was smoking a cigarette in this person's room and

the ash fell like off my cigarette and went into his roommate's shower shoe. And I didn't even see it. And this like started, this dude like wanted to kill me over this. I was like, you know, like little things like that happened in prison. It's just like, what the, like,

Everything doesn't have to be so damn serious all the time. Like, why can't we just act like decent human beings every once in a while? Did you ever try to talk someone out of getting a tattoo? Like, say, a young kid, you're like, are you sure you want to get that gang tattoo? Are you sure you want this? I would all the time, especially when I got to the lower security prisons. First of all, I tried not to do, like, face or hand tattoos because

Not really because I cared about what, you know, I was trying to protect them, but just, I don't want somebody walking around with a brand new face that just draws too much attention. But yeah, so I quit doing towards the end. I, I quit doing anything gang related, like in that, like,

in prison that seems to be a lot of what people want. But if it's something that was obviously gang related, I'm just not doing it anymore. And they were okay with that? Yeah, it was just too much. It was too much drama, like too much heat. You know, like I tattooed one gang symbol on somebody and then they went back and apparently the gang that they were part of had a giant problem with a white person tattooing this gang symbol on them. And it was like this huge thing. And I was like, dude, all right,

I'm done. There's no more. I'm not doing that anymore. It's over with. Did anyone ever ask for a refund or say it came out wrong or anything like that? No. No bad experiences? What was the price? What were you charging people? Well, so to answer your question, that's why it was good for me to almost apprentice under this guy because this guy's been around for a long time. He was like, dude, never...

When you get tattooed, they pay you before you even put the stencil on, before anything. You said money on the wood, you take it, and then I'll take your canteen and I'll put it in my locker, like, and it's over with. Like, there's no nothing. Because it's prison, man. You know, I think a lot of good people, you know, are in prison, but there's also a lot of shit people in there. And that's just the cold, hard truth. Like, there's people that are going to be constantly...

trying to extort and manipulate and run game and all this stuff. And yeah, to nip that in the bud, if you don't have the money, like... Was it one set price or different prices depending on the size? So it went down. So eventually...

I went till I was $100 a day. That was my, that was my rate, which is pretty good. Pretty cheap for tattoos. Yeah, pretty cheap for tattoos on the street, but pretty good for tattoos in prison. And are they paying you cash, like cash out or anything? So at this point, I'm getting paid, at that point, they had green dots. I

I don't know if you remember those, but it's like a prepaid card that your people can have on the street and then their people on the street can get like a number. It's like before, I guess before Cash App and all that kind of stuff. But would you have to do that over like a contraband phone or something? Yeah. To communicate? Yeah, I had a cell phone for the last five years. I was locked up. It makes time go a lot easier. They should just give everyone cell phones. I know. Well, to me, some things are worth...

the risk. I knew when you're locked up all that time, the easiest way to get institutionalized is, bro, you're sitting back there. All you see is this, this prison world. And sometimes that's the easiest way to go because you don't have to think too much about the street. But when I got that phone, I made an Instagram account.

And I started taking pictures of my tattoos and I started taking pictures of my drawings and very inconspicuously, I would post them on Instagram. And by the time I came home, I like 10,000 followers on Instagram, you know, and I was able to reach out to a lot of tattoo shops on the street.

And I've had three jobs lined up at the best tattoo shops in town for me showing my pictures to these people. None of them knew that I was in prison showing the, showing the pictures of the tattoos. Was it hard to adjust to like the equipment on the street versus in prison? No. So this is another crazy thing. A couple years before I came home,

Like this is how it works in South Carolina. If you got the money and you can pay somebody to do it, you can have whatever you want. So the last couple of years I had a full street set up. I had real ink. I had ink caps. I had, you know, I had a pen machine with the cartridges and everything. So I was already, I was already good. How much did that cost you? Probably a couple of grand, right? Yeah. I guess it was a, first I got like,

Got street needles I got I got needles that I'd make like the tubes and stuff and then I get the tubes and then I'd be like dude I just wish I had a big bottle ink then I get the ink and then you know I just acquire all these things so eventually I just had I had everything how much money did you leave prison with saved up? Yeah, I think I had like almost 40 grand in my bank account holy shit, yeah, I

That's incredible. Yeah. I was hustling for a long time. You know, I was hustling. I was doing tattoos for six years, probably straight before I came home. Good for you, man. So there was that and there was other things that you can make money off of, whatever. But my goal at that point was,

in my life dude like when i was saying i sent that pic that portrait home to the guy and i started getting this this feeling of being like like like i'm being you know i'm starting to become somebody i'm starting to actually stand on something like it's not a bunch of like i think i feel like the whole reason i was down this went down this crazy path as a kid is because i had no direction

I realized that art and tattooing was my, that's what I do. That's, that's was my calling. So I put my all into it. Like all I did was draw and do tattoos. And eventually I, I, especially after having a phone and reaching out to some people on the street, I realized that I could do this when I came home and it could be a job that I love to do. I can make as much money as I want. Um,

it's going to be something that, that I can do forever. And right now I have all these years and all this time and I've got no distractions. I need to sit down and when I get out, I can be better than 90% of the tattoo artists on the street. And, um, you know, I was concerned when I, when I was getting close to getting out, I was, I was concerned if I was actually going to be able to get a job. Um, so like I said, I think it was about two weeks, um,

close to when I was getting out and I reached out to the shops that I was talking to. I said, yo, I got something to tell you. And he's like, what? I was like, dude, I'm in prison. The one guy was like, shut up, man. What are you even talking about? I was like, nah, for real. I was like, shut the fuck up. I took a selfie of me like next to the prison toilet. He's like, oh damn, there's no way. And yeah, so I was just prepared. The whole time I was preparing for

what I was going to do when I came home. Like I had to do this because dude, you know, it's a crazy story. But one thing I want to touch on is that I don't think people, you know, people hear these crazy prison stories and they hear all this stuff, but the majority of being in prison is like a mental torture for me, especially like,

There's you don't you don't have anything. Everything you have has been taken away. You're watching your friends on the street get married and having kids and doing whatever. And you're just stuck back here. Everything that you see is negative. Like it's it's it's it's torturous to be in prison. Like it's not it's not humane. Like you're back there. And for me, the escape from that was was this view that.

When I come home, I'm actually going to be able to do something with my life. And I had, I started having goals and I was reaching them and I was getting better at things. And I think this, without that, I would have never, um, I don't think I would have ever made it if I didn't have finally found, find something to keep me, keep my hands occupied with and, and, um,

Just keep my mind focused on the goal. Well, you found your purpose. Yeah, I found my purpose. And there must have been a part of you that was like, maybe I want to just stay in prison because this is working before you found that job. Yeah, no, I wanted to get the fuck out of there so bad. There was definitely no part of me that wanted to stay. So yeah, when I did come home, it just made...

Made everything that much easier to get back on track. How many years did you end up doing on 10? Eight and a half. And so when you got home, was your family there? Were they supportive? Yeah. So during this time I worked, I did a lot of soul searching and everything. And I really did my best to repair the relationships with my, with my parents, especially with my, the rest of my family. And I realized that

All the other friends and stuff I had, there weren't friends. You know, I was locked up almost 10 years and who came to see me? My mom and my dad and that's it. You know, I think I had a friend, I had a friend come one time. I think my brother came one time. So you really get to know who you're, you know, who's really got your back and all those people that you thought had your back

They're, they're, they're not there. You know, when I was doing, I was doing time, you were doing fine as they say. But so when I came home, my dad had moved to Florida. My mom had moved to North Carolina and I knew that I couldn't go back. I couldn't go back to Charleston. There was no way I was, even though I knew I really felt like I was okay. Who knows what would have happened if I went back there?

So, yeah, release day comes. I have everything set up. I've been working my ass off this whole time. I'm feeling good. I'm also nervous. And then it's time to walk out those doors. And, you know, my mom picked me up. It was just a crazy experience coming home. Just the feeling of...

all you've seen is gray walls and heavy doors and all this shit. We drove from, we were all the way in the upstate of South Carolina and she lives all the way on the beach in North Carolina. So it was like a six hour drive or something. Stopping at gas stations, just like overwhelmed by all the, all the things. Um,

Got back to my mom's house and I remember I'll never forget this when I grabbed the door to open it. I felt like I almost ripped the door off the hinges because I haven't touched a regular door in so long.

Every doors these heavy steel doors. I grabbed it. I feel like I was gonna pull it like ripped it straight off the hinges It's like what the hell and I got in her house and I'll never forget the sensation of walking on like a Wooden floor because I've been nothing but concrete under my feet for almost 10 years So it felt like I was walking on a trampoline. I get had give that nothing I had had any give and

So, and then overwhelmingly all the little objects and trinkets on the walls and paintings and everything, it was just like, what the, I just wasn't expecting that part of it. So I come home, my mom tells me she's got this little like a apartment over garage thing. She's like, you can stay here until you get your feet on the ground. Um, so yeah.

Anyway, my stepsister and her boyfriend just broke up. So she's up there and my mom's like, oh yeah, you're going to stay in the guest bedroom right beside us. And I'm 31 years old at this time. I'm like, I can't do this. So I stayed there for like two weeks, moved out, got my own place. And yeah, the rest is kind of history. So like I said before, I reached out to a lot of tattoo shops when I got out. My best friend was in town. He

I got in his car, him and his girlfriend, um, drove me to go apply for that. Some of the tattoo shops and the first shop I walked into, they're like, dude, we'd love to have you here. Just, I just didn't really get the vibe for it. Second shop was, it was the same thing. They were trying to get me to work there and I was just not feeling it. And the third shop I went to was, it was just the fit, you know, it felt like old friends and, um,

Ended up working there for two years. So I got it. I had a job two days after I got out Yeah, two days after I got out I'm a professional tattoo artist and I got to pretend to my clients like I didn't just get out of prison You know, I feel like that's one of those jobs where it's okay to be covered in tattoos and no one's gonna judge you because you're working at a tattoo shop. I would say you almost you almost get

It's like advertising. I think you got looked at weird if you're not covered in tattoos at these jobs. And that was another thing. Me, I have a lot of tattoos, but I was the least tattooed person in the entire shop. I was the only one that didn't have a tattoo on their head. Yeah, my tattoo artist doesn't have any of his forearms or anything done, but he'll have the upper body done. So you'll never know. But from the outside, when he's just wearing a shirt and pants, he doesn't look like he has a single tattoo on him. Yeah. Yeah, dude, so...

Yeah, since I came home, I just, I excelled really quick at getting clientele and at booking appointments. My tattoos just exponentially got better really quick after being around some other seasoned tattooers. And honestly, my tattoos, if I sound arrogant, forgive me, but...

When I came home out of prison, the day I came home out of prison, my tattoos were better. My prison tattoos were better than 95% of the people's tattoos on the street, the tattoo artists on the street. So that was kind of shocking too, like going to these shops and then seeing everybody's tattoos and being like, dude, what the hell? Like y'all been out here in the free world and you can't even figure this out? So yeah. What's some advice you wish you could tell your teenage self?

I think I would have told my teenage self that you have absolutely no clue what kind of pain and suffering you're about to put yourself through if you don't get your shit figured out. Because I think we're all good and we all figure out ways to cope and whatever, but being in prison for that long...

it does something to you. Like it, it takes a toll on you. It, I think you can come out and, and become a better person from the experience, but I don't wish if I could have prevented my, my younger self and really showed myself what life could have turned into. If I still went down that path, then I just would have tried to show, show myself better.

you know what how bad things could really get and it's time to to focus on something and yeah that's about it well chris i appreciate you coming on the show today brother for sure thank you for sharing your story and you know safe travels back absolutely thanks buddy