I Cooked Meth — And Got Caught by the Feds | Kevin Gilford
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All right, just a minute, pal. And I go, dude, you got to get off my bed. And he goes, or what? I go, you get off my bed or I'm going to beat you off. And as soon as I said those words, I was like, that didn't come out right. Kevin Guilford was deep in it, addicted to meth, cooking it,

and living a life that was spiraling out of control. He went from the streets to California state prison, then caught a Fed case and ended up in the same federal prison I was locked up in. But this isn't just another drug story. It's about pain, survival, and owning every mistake to build something real. This one hits hard, and you're not going to want to miss a second. Now sit back, relax, and get ready to lock in.

Kevin, welcome to Locked In. Thanks for coming. I know you thought I blew you off a few months ago when I canceled unexpectedly. I only thought maybe when I kept seeing the episodes come out, I was like, wait a minute. Did he not want me? Yeah, no, I'm glad we cleared that up. Thank you so much for understanding and coming out here today. No problem. I want to plug in your book at the top of this episode that you gifted me today.

everyone loves a good prison story that we're going to find out later in this episode. So I'm sure the audience is going to love to check out your book as well. I appreciate it. Thank you. And where can they find the book at? It's on Amazon. It was at Barnes & Noble on their website. It's also Books A Million and bookstores get it through a place called...

I'm going to go blank now. Well, we'll have all the links in the description. The links will be on the description. Exactly. And just so the audience knows, to give a little teaser, Kevin was at Fort Dix before I was at Fort Dix, but it's such a notorious prison. We've had guests that have been on the show to talk about it.

yep we're an alumni i love that because it does look like a college campus yeah exactly now um where did you grow up where are you from i'm originally from california i'm the only one in my family that was born in california everybody else was born and raised in new england and um my folks when they were they were a young family they had already had my brother but they moved out to california because that's where all the work was back in the 1960s you know

And so I was the only one born and raised out in California, in Northern California, a town called Paradise and Chico. These two towns that are right next to each other. You might know Paradise. It recently burned to the ground completely in 2019. But yeah, that's where I grew up. That's my stomping grounds. What did your parents do for work? My mom was a hairdresser and a retail, you know, in retail clothing for ladies apparel. And my dad was a

a man with the phone company back when that was a big deal. So he started as a lineman, climbing poles and doing stuff like that, went to night school and eventually got a degree and kind of moved up the ladder to a

some sort of a mucky muck in the phone company. Did you guys struggle for money living in California? We didn't at first. We were pretty middle class. And then my folks got divorced when we were pretty young. It was very amicable. There wasn't some big trauma surrounding it. And then when I was 14, my dad passed away. So we were pretty poor after that for a while. How would you describe yourself as a kid?

I was – I think I was just a normal kid. I had some friends. I wasn't super popular, but I also wasn't like an outcast or anything like that. I was just kind of –

I think that I had a form of like ADHD or something like that because I just could never pay attention in school. I was a fat kid and I would always want to do good in school, but I would find myself just daydreaming and completely zoned out. And every day or every year I'd be like, I'm going to do good in school this year. I'm going to take notes and I'm going to pay attention. And then at the end of the first period class of the first day, the bell would ring and I'd go,

Shit. I wasn't even paying attention this whole time. So, you know, I wasn't great in school, but I was, you know, I was an okay kid. Was college an option for you? Did you think about that? No, because I didn't even make it through high school. But I was trying to make it through high school mostly because I was afraid of my dad.

But when he passed away, that kind of removed any barriers for me to just go completely off the rails. And, you know, I dropped out. Did your father's death have a big impact on you?

Just in the fact that, well, he had a lung illness with lung cancer and we knew for a long time that he was going to pass. So it wasn't like as devastating as if he had just suddenly died. Like we'd gotten a chance to say our goodbyes and we had a lot of good years with him. So it wasn't probably as devastating as it could have been. You know what I mean? You just said that you were afraid of your dad. What do you mean by that? Well, just like most dads, he was...

He was scary. And when we were kids, when we would be messing up, like he never had – I think we got two spankings. Well, my brother and I. I think two that I can remember. And –

That was enough. Like the rest of the time, he would just have to look at you. Sometimes he wouldn't even say anything. You would just feel his eyes boring, you know, a hole in the back of your head. And you'd be like, oh, whatever we're doing, disperse. We're doing something wrong. Or he could snap his fingers. That would sound like a shotgun blast. And you just knew you were messing up and you'd just stop. You know, it wasn't like he beat us all the time or whatever. Like I said, two spankings are all that I remember. But it was just...

Fear of disappointing him, you know, that kind of thing, more than physical fear. Do you think with him passing it made it easier for you to go down a bad path? Absolutely, 100 percent, because I was struggling to stay in high school and I had started to do drugs. I was definitely smoking pot and skipping some classes, you know, and things like that.

And I had tried methamphetamine once, and it was the most amazing thing that ever happened to me because for that short period of time while I was on it, I had clarity of thought. I had energy. I could pay attention and was like, oh, my God, this is a magic pill. But I didn't get too much into it until after he'd passed. Plus, I didn't have any access to it.

But once he had passed and I had gotten a job at a restaurant washing dishes and stuff and I had a little bit of money where I could purchase some, I was able to do it on a little more regular basis.

And so I dropped out of regular high school shortly after he passed, and I went to a continuation school where they allowed you to work at your own pace. So they would give you a packet of work, and however long it took you to finish it, you would then turn it in. They would grade it, and then they would give you a test. And if you passed, then you got the credits that you were deserving for it.

And so I started doing the meth and I started knocking out that coursework like crazy. And it was like I was devouring it. I was just, you know, catching up all this work. And in the meantime, so I started doing the meth a lot. And then my friends would be like, hey, can I get some from you? So the next thing you know, I'm buying bigger quantities and selling to them, which is covering the cost of my drugs. And so before long.

I was just – I was making money hand over fist while going to school, just showing up to do my schoolwork. And I was – all my customers were there. So I just started making money like crazy. Now that feeling you just described of trying math, the aftermath feeling of that, do you think it wouldn't have had that effect on you had things been good? You weren't overweight. Your father didn't pass away. Just you weren't feeling kind of down in life?

I don't know. It just, at the time, it felt like something I'd always been searching for. And that's the only way I could describe it was like, like everything that I was lacking at the beginning when I first started doing it, it seemed like that drug gave it to me. It gave me energy. I started to lose weight. I could focus on schoolwork.

You know, everything that I was missing, it was given to me in the very beginning. All of a sudden, once I started losing weight, girls would never give me the time of day. All of a sudden would. It helped that I was now driving a flashy car and, you know, losing the weight and I had money and drugs and stuff like that. Was drug use common in your family? No. My brother maybe introduced me to it a little bit, but he never went down the road that I did.

It was, you know, my dad drank, but not to excess. My mom barely ever drank. She'll have a glass of wine and that's it. She's tipsy, you know. That's like me. Yeah. I'm one drink and I'm a little bit under. Yeah. You should have seen me the other night after not drinking for a few months. Uh-huh. I was pretty messed up. What kind of a cocktail did you have? Uh,

I, uh, what did I have? I, whatever was on the special at this bar in North Carolina. And, um, yeah, it was, it was interesting. And I took my first edible and a few months the other night when those Tyson bites and I was baked, we were all hanging out and then all of a sudden they see me slumped over on the couch. Um, so it was pretty fun. Um, did your family, your siblings, your mother know anything about your, uh, drug use at all when you first started out?

Not when I first started out, but it became apparent, you know, once I, the funny thing about my catching up with all that schoolwork and working at my own pace is I caught up all my missing credits. So in about halfway through my junior year, I was on pace to graduate early. I was making so many credits up. But then I just, I realized something hit me where I was like, I'm making, I'm bringing in about 12,000 a month. I think that's what my mom makes in a year.

And I was just like, what am I doing, you know, in school? And plus, you know, the guidance counselor had asked me, you know, what are you going to do with your life when you get out of here? And I was like, I don't know. And she dropped this book that must have been this thick in my lap. And she said, that's a book of careers. Pick one. And I just felt like on the spot. So I just opened this giant tome and I just go, welding. I know how to do that. I'll be a welder. She's like, fine, you're going to be a welder. And that's

That was just a total put off to me. So I eventually just kind of dropped out. And then my mom was starting to figure it out. In fact, one night, because I would be gone for days on end. And here I am only 16 years old. And then I would come back to sleep it off for a day or so. And I do remember my mom slipping a note under my door one time. It's like, I don't know what you're doing, but you got to stop if you need help. I'm like, you don't know nothing. I'm not doing nothing. You know, and I would just, you know, play it off. So.

What was meth going for back then? It was like $20 for a quarter gram or you could get, you know, an

Then I later figured out once I started selling it, I could figure out that if you bought like an eight ball for $150, you could wind up making just a ton of money. So you could buy a bulk of it for almost nothing or you could buy these tiny little quarter gram packets for $20 a pop. And it was easy to get a hold of? It was easy to get a hold of. There was a lot of meth cooks in Butte County. And at the time, you didn't think anything of making it yourself? No.

No, but I got to that level pretty quick. Now, were you still using when you started selling or did you drift away from using? No, I was always using. And you were able to function correctly enough to sell it, make money. I mean, $12,000 a month for a user. Most addicts that at least I've spoken to, they can't both produce a lot of money and use the drug at the same time. At the time, I was. And the funny thing about that too was I kept that dishwashing job that turned into a cook's job because –

Um, the cook who's also an addict one day, he says, Hey, I got to run out to grab some cause I didn't have any on them to sell them on me to sell them. And he goes, watch the grill. So I started cooking and the owner had come in and saw that I was working the grill and I'm making steaks and keeping everything going. So he, um, I'm getting totally sidetracked, but, um,

He actually had ordered a steak to see if I could do it good without me knowing that he was there. And when it came out and it was good, he said – he fired the cook and he said, all right, you're the new cook. Well, that's actually interesting, that story, because you would eventually become a meth cook. So did –

Was there any like – was there passion in there or the cooking aspect? I did like cooking. So I kept this job where I was a cook at this restaurant even though I was making all this money. I don't even know why I did it. I think it was just like a – like this is my cover story. Like I'm working a job, mom. Don't worry about me dropping out of school. I'm doing good. It's not like I'm a loser. I'm just not going to finish school.

And that kind of thing. You know what I mean? I would say it's pretty fair that a lot of drug dealers do work in the restaurant business. Yeah, because there's no drug testing. And also a lot of it's cash too sometimes. So I guess they could say, oh, I have all this cash because I'm working in a restaurant. Yeah. I didn't even think about that angle at the time. Yeah. I remember how many, like when we were in high school picking up weed or something, you would go to –

Yeah.

Now, when you first started, it's just you? Like you don't have anyone under you or anything? It's just people coming to you to pick up? Yeah, it was just me selling to my friends at school. And then when I dropped out of school, I would drive by there once a day, you know, during lunchtime just to make some transactions and whatnot. What was the average size transaction? Usually I was just selling quarters, just, you know, 20 bucks a pop. That was the best way to make the money because you buy a large quantity for 150. Yeah.

And, you know, and you get 14 quarters at 20 bucks a pop out of a $150 bag of dope. And were most of the people you were selling to just people your age? Just friends. Yeah, just friends. It just sort of happened organically. I never set out to be a drug dealer or anything like that. I was just using it because I loved it and because it was helping me, you know, function more than anything else. And then it just sort of, you know, hey, do you got some? Yeah, I'll sell you some.

And then it just sort of ballooned from there to turn into a business without me even intending to. Did you have any experiences with like meth monsters or any of that? Oh, later on. Later on. You know about the meth monsters? Yeah. So actually my first time I ever interviewed a meth addict, I don't know if you saw the interview, but it was Matthew Hahn. He was the robber. He was a meth addict that robs the house.

breaks open and was safe. And then inside happened to be child pornography. Yes, I saw that one. That was tricky. And he was told me for this whole story about meth monsters. I had no idea that was a thing. I was so brand new to this genre and interviewing and stuff. And I was just fascinated by it. Yeah, especially once I just started doing so much of it

It's funny because I found that the best ratio was to stay awake for three solid days without sleep and then sleep for one and then start again. But the days start to blend together and it's like you forget how many days you've been awake and haven't slept. And so pretty soon you start to get a little paranoid. You start to think you see things. And one time I was driving. It was right at dusk. I was driving down to this, you know, out in the valley in California and

And I'm driving and I'm looking at this strange thing on the horizon. And I'm like looking, I'm like, is that what I think it is? Like, I just couldn't believe my eyes. And the closer I got, the more it looked like there was a giant straddling the highway, tearing up the road. And I was like, oh, my God. And as I got closer, I

I realized it was just an overpass. And I was like, man, I got to get to sleep. So I got to where I was going. I'm like, I got to lay down for a while, guys. So does meth is an upper? Yes. And it actually will keep you up for that long? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like I've tried cocaine before. It's like cocaine is like caffeine versus like alcohol.

a Red Bull or a Monster. So cocaine is like this level and then meth is up here. Now, do you think it affects people differently? Like, for example, some people with marijuana, like for me, it makes me sleepy, but like my cousin, it makes him energetic and happy and excited. Do you think it's like that? I think most people experience it the same way that I do, where it just, you know, wires you up and you're super energetic and stuff like that.

But I think that it also helps people to focus. Like people with ADHD, they get Ritalin, which is an upper. And so maybe it works like that for them.

But for me, it just filled me with creativity and energy and weight loss, which was so good at the time when I was so heavy. Did you ever have another father figure? Did your mom remarry? My mom remarried, and my stepfather's name was John. He was a good guy. I treated him horribly because I was a druggy teenager, but I worked for him for a lot of years doing floor covering and stuff like that.

Once I got out of the meth cooking thing for a while I tried to after I got busted my first arrest which here I am skipping ahead again But um, I tried to be like a normie that would just occasionally do drugs for a while So I worked for him in his floor covering business for a number of years and then he died of a stroke some years later So tell us about the transition from just being you know Picking up from other dealers to actually deciding to take the step to make it on your own so I was

There was just a big flop house where everybody hung out and there was like a pool table and a trailer outside of this house and everybody just it was the party house. And I would go there and shoot pool all night and do lines of meth. And I was hanging out with all the guys that were cooking it and showing up there to party with all the girls that would show up.

And so I was just kind of around on the peripheral and they liked me because I was, I was funny and I, you know, brought in good money and they would ask me to do little things like, Hey, we don't want to run into town. You know, we're all feeling sketched out, but would you run these errands for us and pick up, you know, pick up some beer and fill this propane canister or whatever. And I would come back, you know, with the money and the change. And they're like, keep the change. And I'm like, it's like a hundred bucks. They're like, we don't care.

So I just got in good with those guys and they just seemed to like me. So I was hanging around with them more and more. And before you knew it, they were just kind of inviting me into, uh, the Disney plus Hulu max bundle. It's the ultimate bundle for an unbelievable price plan. Starting at 1699 a month, get it and watch Marvel television's iron heart on Disney plus. I want to build something iconic, a new season of the bear on Hulu. We can make people happy and be

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participate in cooks. And back then there's no online information on how to cook? Nothing. So it's all hand-me-down information. So it's backwards, you know, learning. But if somebody wants to bring you into the fold, you know, you are one of the chosen ones because...

They're looked at as like rock stars, you know? The guys that can cook are rock stars. Now, I know everyone has a different process. I've talked to guys that do like the whole kiddie pool and they put some type of oil or tar. I forgot the specific thing. There's a million methods. I always like to refer to it as like, you know, Boston.

Here's Boston. There's a million roads that get to Boston. Once you're in Boston, you're in Boston. Yeah, it's the same product at the end. Yeah, we were doing red phosphorus and ephedrine or illephedrine reagent. That was like our main go-to back then. Yeah, break down for us the process that they taught you. You want me to teach you how to make meth? I'd love to know. I think that might be a conspiracy if I tell you everything, but—

Basically, we would get – back in the day, you could go to these chemical outlets and we would go in a van with six of us. And each of us would take a turn because you could only buy like so many kilograms of ephedrine or the L-ephedrine reagent. And you could go in there and they would sell you like two kilograms per person. So we would just take turns going in with a big bag full of cash and buying two kilograms of L-ephedrine reagent.

And so we would stock up as much as we could. And then we would go to the next place where we could buy the next precursors, the red phosphorus, the hydriotic acid, all these different things. And you throw them all in a pot with condenser, which is a cooling tower that goes on top of the boiling flask. And you basically boil it down. And back then with those ingredients, you had to cook it for like 72 hours before it was basically ready. And then you pull that off and you –

mix it up with some water and you would change the pH level with with lye or sodium hydroxide and then you would put in what's called a pulling agent and there's a million things that you could use but at the time we used Freon.

trichlorodifluoromethane. And then you would just bombard that with some hydrogen chloride gas and it would... You would have this clear liquid and the hydrogen chloride gas would combine with everything that was in that Freon. It would just turn to like a solid pancake batter and drop to the bottom and you would filter it off. And...

Oh, what was I going to say about that? Anyways, and you would just throw it into a coffee filter, wring it out, let it dry out, and off you went. What makes a meth cooker good? Like what's a trait that you need to have or a characteristic? No cross-contamination. Make sure that all your chemicals are pure and you're not getting stuff in there and your pH is right and things like that. The funny thing that—

What I was going to say about the hydrogen chloride gas is almost all your medications that you take over the counter are constituted the same way. And that's why you'll see most of your medications at the end of the medication say HCL. It stands for hydrochloride.

And so that's how most medicines are manufactured. And that's how we did it all. And we just did it in the backwoods. Now, you must have to have some sort of knowledge with math, like be decent at math or even just science or anything like that. Semi, but some of these guys, you know, it's just sort of, you know, passed down information. I don't know who the first one was to figure it out, but it's just sort of like...

You know, these guys show you one piece and the next guy, some guys, they always like to hide one aspect of the process so that you don't know everything and you can't take business away from them. It's always a little trick where they'd be like, oh, go grab me that beaker out of the other room. And that's when they throw the sodium hydroxide in or, you know, different things like that. They would always hide just one little aspect from you. So you eventually get together with enough guys that have seen the other parts of it that you can figure out how to do it. And they didn't mind teaching someone new because that was taking away one of their customers.

It was just a lot. Most people do. But for some reason, I just fell in with a group of guys that just sort of welcomed me under their wing. Now, what do you think is the biggest myth about cooking meth? We know TV dramatizes, dramatizes, whatever the word is. Dramatizes. Dramatizes. I don't know. I see it. Dramatizes. Yeah, dramatizes cooking meth.

And I'm sure you've seen movies, Breaking Bad, any of those. Yeah, I put off watching Breaking Bad for years because I was just like, I'm going to be critiquing it the whole way through. And then when I finally started watching it, I thought it was amazing.

But like one of the things on that show where they do is they show them dumping in a big pile of like aluminum foil into the pot. And you do use aluminum foil, but not like that. So it's just, you know, it's little things. But I'm not sure what the what I would consider a myth because it's.

I just don't know. Like bathtub. You make it in a bathtub. Well, I've never seen anybody do it in a bathtub. Maybe place their boiling flask in a bathtub in case something spills. But everybody used to call it bathtub crank. Like if it was really dirty looking and stuff like that or it was –

overburned with the hydrogen chloride gas, it would have this really stinky smell to it. Were you guys using like the hazmat suits or anything like that? That's the crazy thing. I was using none of that. Once in a while, we would have a gas mask. But for the most part, like when it got to really potent fumes and chemicals, we would take like a sweatshirt and just tie it around our face. So the fact that I don't have like some sort of cancer or something right now is really amazing. And were you high while you were cooking? Oh, yeah.

And you could focus that much and do the job well while high? I mean, honestly, it helped you focus more. But, you know, as long as you weren't too geeked out or you hadn't been awake too long. And it's just a bunch of you guys all high on meth just doing this. Making more. Yeah. Wow, what a scene. Yeah. And along the way, they would always outlaw chemical experiments.

And then you would have to find a workaround to get the new – find a new way to do it. And so they outlawed a certain acid and then we didn't know how to do it. And then I had a buddy who had parents who were professors of chemistry at the local college. And they hated drug use of all kinds. But they were so analytical and stuff like in their heads –

He would go to them and be like, oh, yeah, mom and dad at dinnertime or something. He'd be like, yeah, you don't have to worry about that meth thing in our community anymore. They outlawed this chemical. And they'd be like, well, that's good. That's a scourge on our community. But you know how they could get around that? And they would start talking about it. And he would bring this information back to us. And we would then have the workaround for the chemical that just got outlawed. Like they outlawed Freon and fluorocarbon gases. And, you know, it was through him.

picking his parents' brain just at a casual conversation at dinnertime, we would find the workaround for whatever got outlawed recently. How did your business start to change once you learned how to cook?

Well, once I learned how to cook, it wasn't too long into that that the guys that I was doing it with all got arrested one by one, got taken off. And I found that I didn't know as much as I thought I knew. So I was missing a piece of the puzzle and I couldn't figure it out. So I just sort of fell back into like dealing. And then I got busted. And the first time I got busted –

was I got pulled over on a trumped-up charge because I was already kind of a known quantity because they'd seen me with the people that they had busted. So I had left a hotel where I was staying at for the night, and a cop pulls me over, and he says, hey, you didn't use your blinker. And I said, yeah, I did. And he says, I'm going to have to search the car. And I said, I don't give you permission to search the car. And he says, all right, let the record show that Kevin gave permission, and he opens up my trunk, and he finds my scale and my drugs. And, um...

So once I got busted there, and the funny thing about that was that I had like $2,800 in cash on me and I had a couple of ounces of meth. And so that was my first drug arrest. And when I finally get out of jail and I get an attorney and he brings me the discovery and the police report and he says, sit down in that room and go over drugs.

Anything that's a discrepancy, write it down. And he comes in after I've been in there a couple of minutes. He goes, how's it going? I go, there's a discrepancy, but I don't think I should write it down. He goes, I'm your attorney. Tell me what it is. I said, well, I had a lot more money than is on here. And he goes, welcome to the criminal justice system.

I go, but the other part is I had a lot more drugs than what it says. He goes, how much did you have? And I said, I almost had three ounces. And he goes, oh, and it says eight grams, huh? I go, yeah. He goes, we'll just leave that part out. But anyways, after I'd gotten busted that time, I had pretty much tried to stay out of the cooking business. I was just going to do some on the side and not, you know,

go down that path again because I knew that I was kind of under the gun. Did that arrest lead to prison the first time? So no, I had a really good attorney the first time because I had a bunch of money at the time. So I got a really great attorney and I got a three-year suspended sentence.

and probation, and I think I had to do six months in the county jail. And this is still in California? Still in California. Yeah, Paradise, California. How did your mom react to that charge? If she even knew about it, or did you cover it up? She knew about it, but it was one of those things, oh, mom, it wasn't mine. It was just left in my car. You know, I just tried to buffalo my way through it. Do you ever think about how your dad would have reacted if he found out? Often, and I'm not sure what the answer to that is, but I'm sure he would have been extremely disappointed.

Do you think you needed that disappointment back then if he was alive? Do you think that would have helped you? I don't know. I just – I can't answer it. I've thought about it lots of times, but I just – I don't have the answer to that. You know, I was reading something recently where – because you know the phrase like how powerful hindsight is, like how it's 2020 and stuff. And I was reading this quote about how it's not exactly as 2020 as we thought it would be because –

That there was we picked one option of the many options that we could have went down. Mm-hmm So even if we think about if he was alive, well, we don't know how it you know It would have triggered other ways if he wasn't or if he was there's just so many ways Yeah, that's why it's it's it's always interesting to reflect on the past But it's also like it's not as we don't know the past as much as we think we do. Yeah, and

I think that it could have been, it could have gone one of two ways. He could have just been like totally wanting to disown me for being such a screw up, or he could have kind of gotten into the whole, all right, how are we going to fight this? What are we going to do to get you better? And I just don't know. I was so young when he passed and, you know, the image of him that I have is from when I was a little kid, you know, so it would be hard to, hard to say. After that first offense, why do you start to ramp things up again?

So it was actually quite a while after that I had just gotten into the mode of just trying to build a normal life while still doing meth and

And just because I just needed it. It was like – it's funny. I could take or leave alcohol. I could take or leave pot. I could do it in moderation and be fine with it. But there was just something about that drug that I just had to have. So for years, I just tried to build a normal life and have a normal job. And I would work construction and I would work restaurants because those are the kind of jobs where they never drug tested. And I could never really –

get my shit together that much. And I had a buddy who always tried to help me out. He had done a bunch of time for murder, an accidental murder. And he had gotten out and he'd gotten his life together and he worked for this tree company in our area. And it was like one of the more sought after jobs in our area. And he was like, dude, math is out of your system in 72 hours. He goes, if you can just get off

I can get you a job here. He goes, go back to doing it after you get the job. You know, I'll get you a job. I just couldn't do it. I couldn't go three days without it. You know what I mean? So for years, I just, I tried to be normal, tried to raise a family. I was with a woman that already had two daughters and we eventually had a daughter of our own, but I could just never get it together. The drugs always came first. You know, no matter how much of a good dad and husband I wanted to be,

the drugs always had to come first. And so I've been, you know, that relationship didn't pan out because I was always spending, you know, bill money on drugs and I just couldn't be counted on to keep a job and to do the right thing. But I would never do intravenous drugs. That was my main thing. It was like, I'm not going to be one of those, you know, those scumbags and this, that and the other. And I always put people down that would use the needle and I would never sell to anybody that I thought used needles.

And then fast forward years down the road, I get together with this girl and we were having an argument one day because she said that she did it that way. And I was like, no way. And she's like, you know what? Half the people that you admire that we know are doing it that way. And I was like, what? And she started naming off people. And I was like, you're kidding. And she goes, and besides so much, so little will go so long if you do it that way.

And I was like, really? And so she would follow me around like a vampire. And she'd be like, look at the vein on that back of your arm. I could hit that right now. And I eventually let her do it to me. And that was it. Like that took it to a whole nother level. And the next thing you knew, I was like robbing places, breaking into homes, just doing anything I could to get the money to do more.

And that's what happened is I was just robbing anybody and everybody I could. And I had a whole bunch of stolen merchandise in my mom's garage. And I was staying at my mom's and sneaking out at night to go rob things, people, places, businesses. It didn't matter. I just was trying to accumulate stuff that I could trade for drugs.

And one night I was sitting there and I just got this funny feeling and I looked out the window and there was just cop cars as far as the eye could see. And so I ran out the back door and

And I had my little bag of tricks like needles and paraphernalia in my hand and I heard freeze and I like threw it and it landed against the shed and just fell on the ground and the cop just goes, yeah, right. So that was it. That was the first time that the jig was completely up and I couldn't deny it to my mom and to everybody else. It was like, yeah, I was an intravenous drug user.

And I was a complete waste case. And so that time I got sentenced to three years in prison. How old were you when that happened? 27. Did you ever find out how you got caught? Yeah, I'm an idiot. That's how I got caught. I robbed my brother's neighbor's house. And I was already a known quantity in the town. They knew that I was a total screw-up. And once the people, they were on vacation. And so this is just what a dirtbag I was. I was over visiting my brother once.

And somehow it got brought up that the neighbors were on vacation. And I was like, oh. And so I snuck back there in the middle of the night, broke in, stole everything I could, coins, just merchandise. Just, it was horrible. And the cops went to talk to my brother whenever they found out, you know, the people reported to the police that somebody had broken into their house. And they were like,

We might have some of their stuff. So my brother's wife like had a coin or something that I had given her and they're like, yep, that's it. Let's go get the kid. So I was an idiot. Describe to us that feeling of wanting to be better but not being able to become better.

It's just it's heart wrenching. And the only thing you can do to like block that feeling is to do more drugs and just run harder. Like I wanted to be a good dad and I tried to be a good dad, but it's just I can't explain it. It's like you just had to have it. It's like air. Like if you were drowning and, you know, the only thing you can do is get up to the surface to get air. And that was the only way I could get air was to get the drugs in me. Do you ever have feelings like that now?

Thank God, no. In fact, even when I just have like a little bit too much coffee or an energy drink that gets me a little too jittery,

I feel like disgusted with myself and I'm like, why did I ever like that feeling? I just can't explain it. For me, that's like ice cream when I start eating some ice cream and then I feel like crap after. I'm like, why did I do that? Yeah, exactly. So California State Prison, that's where they send you to? That's where they send me, yeah. Three years. So the first place that they send me, and I was always afraid to go to prison, but after I'd gotten sentenced, the guys that had been there before were starting to tell me, they're like, you want to go to prison. This county jail thing is bad.

you know, bullshit. At least when you get to prison, you get a job, you get free movement, you know, you can work out and stuff like that. So the first place they send me is a reception place called Tracy dual vocational Institute. Sounds like a school, but it wasn't, well, I guess it was a school. It was a school of hard knocks. And this place was like Shawshank redemption. It was like an old Gothic building with bars and like hardened criminals and

The, uh, the beds were like, um, made of like wire springs and the mattresses one time had been a mattress, but at this point just looked like a bunch of, you know, filling that were in mattresses. So you had to like wrap your sheet up and tie it up just to try and hold all the filling into one spot. And, um,

It was a hellhole, man. But one of the things that happened while I was there too was I caught some sort of a lung infection and I had waited a long time for my money on my books to catch up to me there so that I could get tobacco. And I finally got the tobacco. They put me in a cell and they put this cellie in there with me who was the most horrific looking guy you'd ever seen. I mean, he was sketched out. He was missing half a nostril.

straggly hair. He was a real schizo. And I named him Bigsby in the book. I can't remember his real name, but he was a real trippy guy because I'd be sleeping and all of a sudden I wake up in the middle of the night and his face was right there. And he'd be like, hey, can we have a smoke celly? And I'm like, yeah, dude, just help yourself. Just get away from me, man. So at one point, though, I got this lung infection. I didn't know what it was. I just couldn't breathe.

And, um, I, I, uh, my celly Bigsby, he gets the guard's attention. He's like, Hey man, something's wrong with this guy. You got to get him. And they're like, what's up Guilford? I'm like, I don't know. I can't breathe. And they're like, what's sending down to the infirmary. So they, they take me and they say, walk down this hallway until you get to this block and you'll take a left. And, you know, they try to give me directions and I'm leaning against the wall as I walk because I can't breathe. I just can't catch my breath. Um,

And at one point, through one of the gate unlocks, the cop says, you know, here, push this book cart to the next gate unlock. And it was like heavy and I could barely get it going because I couldn't breathe. But it was also cool because I had something to lean on. And so I make my way all the way to the infirmary and they're like, what kind of drugs did you do? And I'm like, I haven't had drugs in so long. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. They send me back to my cell. So I have to walk all the way back. It seemed like two miles.

And again, the next day, like I can't even get out of bed. So again, they make me walk all the way to the infirmary. And this time they stick that little thing on your finger that checks your oxygen level. And then they all freak out and they get me in an ambulance and I get to the hospital. And that was like the best two weeks of my stay because I was in the hospital. And they turned out that I had some lung infection because that prism was so damp and so moist that I had just gotten something in my lungs that couldn't get out.

But that two weeks was a great reprieve because there was a nurse there that was just like so kind to me. She was like an angel. She would bring me like a Coca-Cola and she would make the cops like loosen the leg irons on my bed. But I made it through that. Now, I'm sure you had a vision of what prison would be like based on movies like even Shawshank Redemption. Was it what you expected going into that state prison? Pretty much. Yeah. There was a...

There were some scary moments in the first one. I knew that I had to be on guard, right? And I was always looking for ways that people were trying to punk me out, and I was ready to, you know, stand up to myself. And one of the times I was there, I was in like a 12-man thing, and everybody had their bunk. And I was reading my book, but really not reading it, just kind of like keeping an eye out. And this guy came and sat on the edge of my bed to talk to the guy in the bunk next to me.

And I was like, hey, man, don't sit on my bed. And he's like, yeah, yeah, just a minute. And I'm like, no, man, you got to get off my bed. And he's like, all right, just a minute, pal. And I go, dude, you got to get off my bed. And he goes, or what? I go, you get off my bed or I'm going to beat you off.

And as soon as I said those words, I was like, that didn't come out right. And then all the other guys in the cell like broke the ice by going, ooh, sign me up. Oh, yeah, me too. They all started like lining up like I was going to beat people off. And I just went, oh, my God. I just like all of a sudden had the sweats under my arm and my lower back and

And the guy grabs me by the shoulder and he goes, come on, kid, let's have a talk. And he kind of let me know. He's like, I get it. I probably should have asked permission. And he goes, but dude, not everybody's trying to, you know, punk you out here and just kind of read the room. And, you know, he kind of calmed me down a little bit from there.

Had someone warned you about getting punked out or did you just know that from watching things? I think it was just sort of a, yeah, you know, don't let any, you know, if somebody leaves a candy bar on your pillow, don't eat it. That kind of thing. I'd heard all these stories. So I was really worried about it. That's what my first bunk mate told me at Fort Dix. He's like, never leave something on someone's bed. Never accept anything on someone's bed. Watch over the candy bar. He would always, when I would sleep on my stomach sometimes, he would hit the top, the bottom of the bunk and be like, you got to flip over.

Yeah. Just to you can't do that. And sitting on people's beds, walking into someone's room, wearing shower shoes, all of that stuff. Paying too much attention to what people are doing, looking at what other folks are doing. Or if you see like a scuffle break out, like looking at it, like you got to look away. You're drawing attention to it. Things like that that you learn along the way. How would you have described yourself in prison? Are you like a nerdy white guy? Are you, you know, more acting tougher?

No, there's no tough bone in my body, although I was trying to act tough to that guy that sat on my bed, you know. But no, I was just a quiet guy. I read my book, read my Bible. You know, I was trying to get into that because I had never been exposed to religion in any way. So I started doing that just to try and get like a—

like a base knowledge, you know, and exposure to it and things like that. So mostly I was just a reader that first time in prison. That's all I would do is just kind of stay on my bunk, read my Bible, read my books, things like that. What were your thoughts about what life would be like after that first sentence? Are you thinking I'm going to turn things around? This sucks. I don't want to do this. No, I thought I was going to be good. I was going to get my life together. I was going to, you know, go to N.A. and I was going to get a job. I was really going to buckle down and do things right.

Why didn't that happen? What happens when you get out? It did for a while. When I got out, I definitely buckled down and I got a job at one of the better factories that they had in my area, which was Fleetwood Motorhomes. And it was a great job. I loved it. I was doing really good. But after a while, I just those feelings started to creep back in. Like I go, you know what? I think that I was just so strung out for so long from my youth.

that I was chemical dependent. I wasn't an addict. I was just chemically dependent on the drug. I was like, I bet I could do it now, like on the weekends. And the way that I tested myself was my PO would test me every Wednesday. I would go to the police station. He would walk us into the bathroom, take a urine sample, and we'd be done with it. And I'm like, meth stays in your system for 72 hours. I did some on Friday.

by Wednesday would be out of my system. And if I was unable to stop before I got too far gone, my PO would reel me in, send me back to prison and rescue me from it. Well, unfortunately, I was good at it long enough to get off of parole. And then I just took off running again. And then I started manufacturing it again.

Oh, so you just jump right into the manufacturing. Pretty quickly, yeah. You don't go and pick up from anyone? So I was buying it at first, and since I had a good job, I was able to afford it. And then the plant closed, and they moved everybody to Southern California. They said, if you want to move, we'll pay for your moving and all that stuff. But I didn't want to move to Southern California, so I was like, I'll get another job up here.

But now that I was on drugs again, I couldn't apply for jobs that were going to drug tests. So then I was in this limbo. So I eventually got back into cooking and just started making money that way. And how was your relationship with your family when you got out of prison? It was good at first because I got a good job and, you know, I was doing right.

And my mom got to the place where she wanted to move back to New England because she was getting close to retirement. And California was so expensive. And there really isn't a lot of help for seniors. So she said, all right, the kids are good now.

I'm going to move back to New England. So she was gone. So I didn't even have that to have to account for, you know. I didn't have to worry about showing up looking all blitzed out at my mom's house. How old were you when you started to cook again that second time? It was – I probably got out when I was 28 or 29. So it was right around the year 2000. So I was 30 years old. 30 years old. Yeah. Yeah.

Did you have to set up a new building? Did you go back to the old one? No, I got in with a guy that was already doing it, and he and I just sort of teamed up and started doing our thing. And who was this guy? Was he trustworthy, a friend? His name was Chopper. Everybody's got a nickname.

Yeah, his name was Chopper. He was a musician. So he like had a free flowing lifestyle. Like he would be in several different bands. He would be off playing at night. And then when he came back from gigs, we would do our thing in the shed. And that's how it went. And was your cooking process the same as it was the first time? Very similar. Very similar. Yep. And he had a few tricks that

It was a workaround to some other chemicals that had gotten outlawed along the way. So at this point in time, we were doing it from cold pills because you couldn't buy ephedrine anymore. But you could get pseudo-ephedrine from the cold pills. So we would swipe pills, have people swipe them, things like that. Were you nervous about getting caught again? Yeah. And eventually what happened, how I got out to New England was –

I knew that I was getting real sketchy and loose with cooking and one step away from getting busted again. So I eventually knew that I was getting too far gone and I needed to get the hell out of town. So I thought, you know what, I'm going to see if I can move out to New England with my mom and make a clean break from this. I got to get out of it. So I did that. I moved out to New Hampshire with my mom. I got a job there.

And it would have been good if I hadn't the knowledge of how to make my own methamphetamines. And so eventually they didn't even know about meth in New Hampshire at the time. And they're like, meth, what's that? And like, we can get you some crack. And I'm like, ah, no, that's for, I didn't want that. So I eventually started making it for myself. So no one was cooking meth in New Hampshire at that point? Nobody had even heard about it in Keene, New Hampshire. Anyways, that's where I lived.

And so I eventually just started making it just for my own personal use. And then people start to get wind of it? What happened was is I lived in an apartment and I had set off the smoke alarm not by cooking meth but by cooking biscuits and gravy one night.

And I had this girlfriend that was a super pothead and we couldn't find enough pot to keep her happy. So she wanted to grow a plant. So I had a closet that I put a padlock on that had like a little grow room in it with some grow lights. And when the fire department came in, they says, we need to see in that closet. I said, no, you don't. And then a police officer came in and they're like, yeah, we got to get in that closet. I go, no, you don't.

And flashback to my first arrest, this police officer said, let the record state that Mr. Guilford said, go ahead and go in the closet. And so they bust open the closet. They see the weed. So then I get arrested. And then when they start searching the rest of the apartment, they find all my stuff for making meth. Oh, so you never even actually got to start selling again? No. And if I had tried to sell any, it only would have been for the fact of

Getting me enough money to keep my cook going. You know what I mean? And this became a federal case when they found that? Because nobody in New Hampshire knew anything about what was going on. They deduced that it was – well, my girlfriend told them it was because I was making meth. So they were like, well, we don't know anything about it. So they had to get the DEA lab out of Boston to come up. And so that's how it became a federal case. Why did they decide to pick up your case today?

It just seems like so small, like it's not like a giant lab. Well, at the time, they thought that I was connected to some biker gang or something. In fact, they were like the – my attorney was like – and I think it was a public defender at the time. He was like, yeah, they're convinced that you're like part of some motorcycle gang and this, that, and the other. You sure you don't want to talk to them and flip? And I eventually said, you know what? I will talk to them. I don't have anything to tell them, but I think I just need to explain myself.

So we got together with them and the guys, you know, the state attorney was like, come on, we know you're hanging out with those guys. And I go, I don't know what guys you're talking about. And he's like, you know what kind of guys I'm talking about. And I go, I hate to disappoint you, man, but I'm just a guy that wanted meth and there wasn't any out here. And so I was making my own. I go, I'm sorry, but that's just the truth.

And that matched what my girlfriend at the time had told them was just like, you know, he just needed it and he was making it for himself. So they eventually, you know, settled on like a 70-month sentence, which I thought was pretty good. That seems like you got railroaded. They could have got me for a career criminal. I had so many felonies on my record from my past that they could have gotten me for a career criminal. Now, did you get bail when they arrested you when the feds came? So when I was in county –

I did get released on my own recognizance whenever the feds picked up the case. So I went to Concord State Prison for a couple of months, and then when the feds picked it up, I was able to get out on my own recognizance for a couple of months. So I think I stayed out for like six months before I eventually got sentenced. Do you wish you had stayed in California? No. No. I'd be dead. I feel like I'd be dead.

So in a way, it was a negative experience coming out here, but it still saved you. I always look at it like everything happened for a reason and it was, you know, in the end, I think this is the, it turned out best for me. And did you have a paid lawyer or a public defender? Public defender. Do you think it would have been different if you had a paid lawyer the 70 months? I think I got the best deal I was going to get, honestly.

You didn't have to flip on anyone. It was just straight. Not that there was anyone to flip on. I wouldn't have anyways, but there was nobody to flip on but myself anyways. So what year do you end up going to federal prison? 2003. And you went to Fort Dix like a self-surrender? No, they took me in on my sentencing day.

Right there at the Concord Courthouse. And then they sent me to a couple of different county jails. And then my first stop was in Brooklyn. MDC Brooklyn? MDC Brooklyn. And I thought it was funny because my first morning there, I look out the window of my cell.

And the Statue of Liberty is facing right at my cell. And I'm like, well, that's kind of ironic. You know, the symbol of freedom is facing the jail. Yeah, I was at Brooklyn, too. First, I was actually in Wyatt in Rhode Island. I don't know if back then they were doing it, but there was no county jails. So they would send people or there is no county jails around here. So Connecticut, Massachusetts, like those bordering states go in Rhode Island, go to Wyatt.

It's a private detention facility. So that was my first experience when my bond got revoked. And then they transferred me to MDC Brooklyn. Okay. How long were you in Brooklyn for? I think it was a couple of months. I was there during the...

The Super Bowl where the Janet Jackson nipple gate happened. And when that happened, all of us jumped up going, what? And the next day, one of the CEOs was kind enough to print off some Xerox copies of it for us. That is so funny. Yeah, it was a trip. Describe MDC Brooklyn at that time. It was...

Kind of horrible because the food had absolutely no flavor. I don't think there was a gram of salt in the whole building. Everything was just so bad and it was just, you know, cell block living. It was like being back at county jail. Did you think it was better than county jail? No, not in any way, shape or form. And I was there without, like I said, the food didn't have any seasoning whatsoever.

Um, it was just kind of walking up and down, you know, the block all day long. There wasn't any real yard or anything like that. So when I got to Fort Dix, I thought it was amazing. My first time going into the chow hall and they had salt and pepper packets, I like started filling my pockets and the guy in front of me goes, what are you doing? I'm like, this, we may never get this again. He's like, no, we get this every day. And then I saw there was like a soda machine, like you could, a soda fountain machine. You can get like Coca-Cola. I was like,

And a salad bar? I was like, what? No, we had a salad bar. I thought it was amazing, yeah. Were more people curious about what your charges were in the federal system than the state prison? I think it was about the same. You know, people want to know what you were there for. As long as you could produce some paperwork, you were cool. So paperwork existed in the state prison where you're at, too? You know, it's hard for me to remember, but I think that...

Everybody knew everybody or knew somebody on the streets that knew somebody. So it was, you know, it's pretty evident what you were in for. Besides the food aspect that you were surprised about in the federal system, what else were you surprised about difference wise between the state? The freedom of movement. There was a lot more freedom of movement. And also like the the arts and crafts and the wellness department and the the schooling. There was so many different classes that you could take.

It was so I just took everything I could. You know, I wanted to be expand my horizons as much as I could. So whenever I took had time, I would take classes like on computer sciences or I even took one on CDL drivers, you know, just to get the written portion out of the way. Did I think I was going to drive a truck?

I don't know, but I just, it was available and I had the time slot available. So were there inmate rules like that? The inmates created that differed from the state that you had to learn or readjust to? Yeah. So the state prison in California was like a, an imposed racism. Like you couldn't interact with other races. You couldn't drink or eat with other races or even go to the water fountain after a black or Hispanic had without running the water for like 30 seconds before you took a sip. And, um,

In federal, it didn't matter. We were eating and enjoying card games with every race. It didn't really matter. Did it take you a while to figure that out, or was that something you just kind of noticed right off the bat and you felt comfortable doing?

I don't remember. I think it happened pretty fast. I realized that, oh, this isn't California. In fact, when I was in county jail before I got there, I got into a little bit of a scuffle because East Coast and West Coast rules weren't the same. Like in California, the term punk only means a homosexual that does things for favors. And if somebody calls you a punk –

You know, you're fighting. That's all there is to it. So here I am in a county jail in 2003 in New Hampshire and we're playing cards and some guy calls me a punk and I stand up and I'm like, you don't fucking call me a punk, bitch, you know? And he's like, settle down. What's going on? Everybody's like, why are you freaking out? You don't call me a punk. And he's like, all right, just calm down. Just sit down.

And we all sit down again and I'm like still steaming. He's like, calm down, punk. So I jump up. I hit the guy. We start wrestling on the ground. You know, they tear me off of him. I go to, you know, solitary. And then the, you know, the captain or whatever comes in to see me later. And he's like, what was that all about? I'm like, call me punk. You can't. He's like, so I'm like.

A punk? You can't call somebody a punk. And he's like, they didn't even know. And so the cop went and kind of like asked everybody in there and they're like, we don't understand. They just kind of like might as well be calling you a jerk. And so he came back and he's like, you know, that doesn't mean what you think it means out here. And I was like, oh, really? Sorry. Do you think you had to become someone who you weren't in those situations? Yeah.

I think that it just sort of reverted back to like you can't let somebody punk you out, quote unquote, you know. And I thought that's what that guy was trying to do. So I couldn't. And that's one of the few fights I've ever won. And I think it was all because it was just such a surprise to him. Did people pick on you at all in Fortex? No, I didn't have any problem with that. I did get into another fight where I got whooped pretty good, though. At the time, my job was in the tool room. I was the tool man there.

Looking back, it was a shit job. But in the tool area, like if somebody needed to check out a tool, they had to give me like a chit. They had these little coupons. And I would hang up the coupon where the tool was and I would give the guy the tool. And one of the guys, when I stepped out to go to the bathroom, had gone in and gotten a tool.

And I said, hey, I need your chip, man. He goes, fuck off, tool man. And he and I had like messed around, you know, joked around a lot. So I thought he was joking around and I go, you better give me that fucking chip, man. Next thing you know, he was, you know, throwing hands on me and he was just a little skinny guy. So I thought I can handle this. So I like drew up like this and he goes, oh, you want some more? And he grabbed either a pipe or a board or something and he hit me. And next thing you know, I was down on the ground and he started putting the boots to me.

And luckily, the other guys in the area, like, swarmed him and stopped him from, like, really doing some damage. But, like, he broke my nose and—

really messed me up. And I was in the shoe for like two months. Did you create a side hustle out of that tool job at all? I know a lot of guys that'll have jobs in prison, the prison pays you, you know, 30 bucks a month. So you have to create other money. So I think when I was just in the tool room, all I was doing was I was like carving up dice, like there wasn't any dice on the thing. So there was these little blocks of wood that I was carving into dice and drilling holes in them to make the numbers. And

Another thing I was doing was making crochet hooks for the Jamaicans. They like to make those hats. And there was some metal material that I could turn into a crochet hook, which would totally be contraband if I got caught with it. But I was making those. How much would you get paid for these items? I don't remember. It was probably like a book of stamps or, you know, 12 max. Now tell us about the currency on that subject. So mackerels, a bag of mackerels was worth a buck.

And a book of stamps at that time was like five bucks. So it was basically like a $5 bill and a $1 bill. And so the audience, to put it in perspective, you know, I was at Fort Dix 10, 12 years after Kevin here, and the currency was still the same. Oh, it's still... Granted, the price has gone up, like a mackerel is a dollar, and then a book of stamps was...

$10. Okay. And you can get 12 mackerels for a book of stamps, which the math on that doesn't make any sense, but people would rather have the book of stamps. Yeah, exactly. So it's interesting to see how it just goes along. I bet they're still using mackerels and stamps right now. Yeah. It was funny too, because there were guys that had money on the compound would buy large blocks of stamps or mackerels and have money sent to your books. And I think it was like

you know, a 70 to 1 ratio, like they would give you 70% of the face value of something to send the cash to your books. And that's how I eventually got a lot of the money that I would be paroled with so that I could, you know, get on my feet with. Were you thinking about drugs at all while you're in prison? No, I didn't have any desire. I didn't have any, it wasn't even on my radar.

Why do you think it's easy for some people to not have those thoughts when they're in prison and other people need to find those drugs or get that fix? For me, I think it was just a matter of I was so done and I knew that like even the last time that I was in prison, I thought that was it for me. But

Something just clicked in my psyche where it was just like, that is it. I am 100% done. I just need to work on myself, my mind, body, spirit. So I started working out. I started reading books. I started taking every class there was to take. And I just started really cleaning up my act.

Tell us about the sleeping situation, like the politic aspect. We were talking off camera about buying bunks or buying rooms. Oh, yeah. Yeah, if you could explain to the audience about how that works. So there's always a head clerk or whatever that works with the counselors that kind of run the unit.

And some way or another, they have influence over their bosses, the counselors, the COs. And if you have enough money, you can purchase your way into like a two-man cell, which is the ideal situation instead of a 12-man cell.

you know, sell with bunk beds. So six on one side, six on the other, bunk beds either way, which, you know, there's guys snoring and farting and then there's guys hiding contraband in there. Like I almost got hemmed up one time when a guy was doing tattooing and he was hiding the stuff in like the leg of the table that was in the center of the room.

And sure enough, it gets caught during a throwdown or a toss, cell toss. And we all get called down to the lieutenant's office. And all the way there, everybody in the cells tell the kid that had the tattoo gun, you know, don't worry, man. You go hard. They can't pin that on anybody. That was in a common area, man. You know, this kind of stuff. And I'm thinking to myself, no, that's not how it should go, man. That should be like...

You know, you shouldn't, you don't have to hem up these other guys. It was mine. He should fall on the sword, but I'm not going to say that. So we all get called in before, you know, one at a time before the lieutenant. And I'm like, I don't know. I can't tell you. And they're like, you know, you know who it was. I'm like, I don't know. I didn't see anything. I just read my book in there and stuff. So the lieutenant comes out and he goes, all right, I'm going to let you guys go outside and talk about this amongst yourselves for five minutes. And either the person who's guilty comes forward or the

You're all going to the shoe. And so I'm months away from release at this point. And I'm like, everybody says it's common area. They can't pin it on us. This and the other. What about you? And the next guy? Yeah, they can't pin it on us. It's a common area. And it finally comes to me and I go, well, listen, I'm not going to tell either way. But if it was mine, I wouldn't want to hem up everybody else in the in the room. I would say it was mine. But you do what you feel like you got to do. And I'll back the play.

And so the lieutenant comes out and he says, you know what? You don't need to bother these guys. It was mine.

And so they said, all right, thank you for being honest. And they take him away. And then on the way back, everybody else in the cell was like, oh, thank God you said that, man. That's what I wanted to say. But I'm like, well, then why didn't you, man? We should have all been trying to talk him into taking the fall for his own thing. But it worked out in the end. But when you get into a two-man cell, then it's just you and one other guy you got to worry about. And what would the price go for something like that? I think it was like, I think it, I want to say it was like 50 books of stamps.

So $250 to get into a two-man cell. It's not bad. No, it wasn't bad if you have it. And thankfully, I had worked my way into some other hustles because after I took that beating in the shop and I got out, my friend Yong Kim, this Korean guy, got me a job in the wellness center.

And, first of all, Yong Kim, shout out to you, buddy. Man, this guy was the greatest guy ever. Everybody looked up to him on the compound. He looked out for everybody. And he always tried to help you do better and get ahead.

And the first thing Yong Kim had me doing was, so I was a clerk along with him. And so I had a typewriter that had like a memory thing in it. And he goes, yo, he called me Danger. My nickname was Danger. That's a long story. But let's just say, he said, yo, Danger, you think you could do the typing, help some guys with some legal things? And I go, yeah, sure. He goes, okay, I set it up. And so a guy come up and he say, hey, can you type this, my legal thing?

And I'd say, sure. And he'd go, how much? And Young Kim would say, that'd be five Mac, you know, for one page or whatever. He would set the price. And then at the end, I go, Kim, you want a couple of these Macs? He's like, oh, no, danger. That's for you. That's for you, shorty. So he called everybody shorty, which normally, you know, is like reserved for like slang for like your girlfriend. But for some reason, everybody just went with it there. And then eventually he got me to –

Yong Kim says, yo, danger. You think you could type up the ticket for the gambling? I go, I could probably do that. He goes, okay, I set it up. Next thing you know, I'm making tickets for the bookies. And that paid a lot better. That was like a book of stamps per page of, you know, tickets. And even if you got caught at that, as long as you didn't have a bunch of money on you, it was like no big deal. You know, it was a slap on the wrist. So it wasn't like I was taking any great risk.

And then eventually Yong Kim said – I started working out. I was getting a little bit healthier. I was starting to lose weight. And Yong Kim said this was the wellness department, so we had all the different classes. And since I was in the computer lab for one of my classes, he would have me make up the flyers to put around the compound.

And one of them was like basic aerobics and one of them was like CrossFit and, you know, all these circuit training and things like that. And so I was starting to lose a little bit of weight. I was probably down from like 260 to maybe 230 at that time. And young Kim says, yo, danger, you're going to teach basic aerobics next quarter. And I go, man, I'm not ready for it. Sure enough, you know, he got me to do it and actually helped me step up my game. And I started doing that.

And then they were doing these correspondence courses where guys were getting their personal trainer certifications. And he said, you're a danger.

I think you should do these for the guys. And I go, what do you mean? He goes, you should, you know, on the typewriter, you do the coursework for them. I go, I don't know anything about it. He goes, you'll figure it out. So he hooks me up with a guy that bought the course. The guy brings me the course that he got. And I'm supposed to do all the coursework and hand it back to the guy for like $250, mailed to my account.

And so I do it. And the next thing you know, I'm doing these courses for everybody. And in the process of doing that, I wind up doing my own. And so I got my own certification paid for by these guys that are doing theirs. And I started getting more and more fit. And pretty soon I was down to like 200 pounds and eventually down to like 175 by the time I left prison. But Yong Kim was –

I think I got sidetracked in your original question quite far, but he was instrumental in getting guys –

You know, helping guys out and taking them under his wing. And one of the things he had me do when I was in the basic aerobics, and they like to poke fun at me pretty good too, was when I was in the basic aerobics class, some gay guys were in the first class, and this guy talked just like Harvey Fierstein. And after the class, he was like, oh, danger. I love your class. It was so good. Well, those –

And guys, my friends, Yong Kim and the buddies, went and made up new posters, and they changed it to Danger's Buns of Steel Class. So that was the joke. It was like, oh, Danger, I love the Buns of Steel Class. So they were all having a good laugh at my expense, but it was all good, you know? Now, how do you get the nickname Danger? We've got to hear that story after you just said the word Danger 50 times. Yeah, it's more of a tongue-in-cheek thing than anything. But back when I was in California—

The guy that was the head cook was kind of an intimidating fellow. And a couple of things to know about Matthews is, one, makes you super paranoid, and two, you are always down for a mission, quote-unquote. And so this guy liked to, you know, it was sort of a thing of mystique with this guy, but if he said, hey, we've got to go on a mission, you drop everything and go on this mission. And we were all hanging out in the flop house, you know, playing pool at all hours, and

And, um, there was a guy that he brought there that was really starting to get on everybody's nerves after like day three, we were all up playing pool, drinking beers. And, um, he pulled me aside and he goes, Kevin, I want you to take this guy for a ride and get him the fuck out of here. Get rid of him. And I go, okay. And, um,

There was this sketchy little girl that was always hanging around that had overheard this. Now, I don't find this out until later after we get back, but she overheard him say, Kevin, get rid of him. And she thought that meant get rid of him. So I say, all right, I'll get rid of the guy. And I grab my friend Jimbo and I tell this guy, hey, Ronnie wants us to go on a mission.

get in the car. We're going. He's like, all right, cool. So he gets in the back of my Camaro and Jimbo gets in the front seat. I get in the front seat and we start backing out of the driveway. And this girl comes running out and she's screaming at the car, danger, danger, danger. And we all just kind of look at her. I back into the road and then I pull away. And the guy in the back seat who we're getting rid of goes, your name's Danger? Danger.

And Jimbo goes, yeah, his name's Danger. Isn't that right, Danger? And I'm like, what? I didn't even understand what was going on. So we drive off. I eventually go to a gas station that's up in the woods like, I don't know, an hour away from where we were. And this is back when you would pump the gas first and then go in to pay for it. So I filled up the tank and I give the guy the money. I said, go in and pay for it. And when he went in, I just took off.

And so when I get back, we find out, you know, the girls calm down. They explained to her that I was just getting rid of them, not killing them. But from that point on, Jimbo always referred to me as Danger. And then when young Kim found out that my name was Danger, I had told him some story I was telling him where Jimbo called me Danger. And he goes, whoa, shorty.

Danger? I go, it was a stupid nickname. It didn't stick for long. And he goes, oh, no, shorty, your name is Danger. Your name is Danger from now on. And the funny thing is, is that it had like a resurgence at Fort Dick. So everybody knew me as Danger. And even like the Hispanic guys, when they would come to ask me if I would like write a fitness plan for them or if they needed something from me.

I don't think they got that it was tongue-in-cheek because they would be like, Mr. Danger, can I ask you something? Or someone called me El Peligro. And it was just a joke, but it seemed like I could see in their eyes that some of the folks there thought that it was like I really was dangerous, which I am the least dangerous man on the planet. But it was pretty funny, and the guys all got a good joke out of calling me Danger. Yeah, you don't even look like you went to prison.

And that's in the book a lot. You know, every time I tell somebody, they're like, wow, I never would have guessed. I mean, they do the same thing to me too. Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. It's interesting. Like there really is this huge stereotype on people that went to prison and it just, it makes you wonder all the people you meet in your life, if they've been to prison too, and have just been too shy or scared or concerned to talk about it. Yeah. Well, it's funny too. There's more and more people like us out there because there's, you know, an engineer where I work that has also been to prison and,

But he doesn't like to advertise it as much as I do. Most people within an hour of knowing me know that I've been to prison because I'm always telling stories about when I was in prison and Yong Kim, all the hilarious stories about Yong Kim. And so they're like, it's known pretty early on. The only people that didn't know early on is my wife's parents. And she's, I love my wife. She's the best. She's the main force behind me writing this book. But one thing that she asked me, she was like, listen,

I know that you're extremely open about your past. You're not ashamed of it. Would you please just wait until my parents get to know you before you bring it up with them? And I was like, all right, I'll try. And I'd never done that before because it's just always out in the open. So fast forward, I was with my wife. We'd gotten married. We'd been together a long time. And then it just kind of never came up. And then...

When I got the book written and edited and it was about to come out, I had to call them over to have dinner with us. And I says, look, folks, I got to tell you about something. And I explained why I hadn't told them in so long.

And thankfully, they were very understanding. And they both said that, you know, we couldn't ask for a better husband for our daughter. And it was it was very touching at the time because I had like it had been years that we'd known each other without them knowing about it. So, yeah, the way I look at it is I'd rather the stuff out there. Right. Because if there's anyone like a future girlfriend or anything, they already know everything. They know what they're signing up for. You know, and it's also all your dirty laundry is out there.

Well, when I got out of prison this time, I told you before we came in here to talk, when I went to the employment security office for the first time, I'm trying to figure out how do I get a job, etc.

And there was a woman that worked her whole life in HR there. And she was the one that told me when you're filling out that application to put down, you know, have you ever been convicted of a felony? You say, yes, we'll explain an interview. And she's the one that told me always be completely honest. Don't hide nothing. Don't elaborate, but don't try to downplay it. And always before with my first prison bid and all my other felonies, I'd always try to downplay it or come up with a spin that sounded better than

But she was the one that told me, you know, you tell them this is what I did. This is what I've done to change. And if you give me a shot, I'm going to knock your socks off. And that forthrightness really has paid dividends in my life. Not only, you know, getting jobs, which I have a great job now because of that advice that she gave me, but just in my personal life. Like I put it out there right off the bat. That way I don't have to worry about.

you know, somebody finding out later and then being offended that I didn't tell them or whatever. I just, I want it out there. Now you were in a California state prison and then you go to a federal prison system. Was there similarities between how the inmates make commissary food or just like any habits they do? I mean, you can't get away from ramen, right? In fact, it's funny because just the other week, my wife says, what did you have for lunch? And I'm like,

You know, kind of looked away and she goes, did you make ramen again? Like every once in a while, I just get a craving for it even though it was – yeah, so the ramen and chicken and fresh vegetables, every once in a while, I get a craving for that. Isn't it funny that you could be in two entirely different prisons and all the way on the opposite ends of the country and they do the same exact thing and they prepare it the same way and they use the same tools and they've never met each other? Well, there's only so many tools to have. That's true. But like they've never met each other, you know? Like they're just –

But then you look at the race issue and that's completely different with how the racial politics work. Exactly. Which it's weird in that sense, but it's also interesting about how it operates. Yeah. It is funny. It's night and day from California State Prison. But I'll tell you, it was so much better in the feds. Just the schooling, the not having to worry about race stuff. I mean, obviously, you don't want to get into a beef with somebody from another race. You don't really want to get into a beef with anybody.

But having that removed from the things that you had to worry about really made a difference. Now, when people hear you did 70 months in prison, they're going to think that's a long time, you know? Does it feel like a long time when you're going through it? When you look back on your life now, is 70 months like the end of the world? How did that feel? I mean, at the time, it seemed like this is going to be, you know—

I'm going to be like 38 years old when I get out of here. This is going to be crazy. But it also was like I needed that much time to work on all the different aspects of my life and get into shape and change my way of thinking and just, you know, get a bunch of learning under my belt so that I had some sort of a foundation to start with. And just like being able to like, you know, get up on time every day and make your bed and stick to a routine and get that, you know,

That rigidity of daily life built into my psyche so that when I came out and it was time to get a job and go to work every day and go to bed on time so you could get up for that job, I was prepared for it. So I needed that time. Was it hard to reintegrate into society after 70 months? It wasn't as hard after the 70 months as it was after I did my first prison bit. And I can't explain why, but I just, I hit the ground running.

Was there obstacles in your way or it was just straightforward, you know, right back into it? The only obstacles was that – I'm freezing in here, by the way. I can turn the air off. I'm over here shivering. I'm like, can they notice that on camera? The only obstacles was like I didn't have anywhere to live. But I had built up so much bank with, you know, doing the –

the fitness trainer things and typing up legal briefs and doing the bookies slips and all that stuff that I had a little bit of a cushion of money. But my mom had a plan. She's like, okay, since she was on like subsidized housing, she couldn't have anybody stay there longer than two weeks. But my mom's plan was stay for two weeks. And if you don't have a place, we'll put you up in a hotel for two weeks and then come back and kind of go back and forth.

But my PO, as soon as I got out, was like, that's not happening. She's like, no, you're going to have a place within two weeks or else. And so lo and behold, I got a place within two weeks and it was a dive, but I got it. Yeah.

Was it hard to reintegrate into just everyday things like taking a shower, you know, without flip flops on or doing any of those things like that, you know, ordering your own food? No, actually, it's because I had it all planned out what I was going to do. I mean, I had every minute of every day planned out. I was like I was going to spend from this time to this time eating.

at the library searching jobs. And then I was going to spend from, you know, noon to five applying for jobs or following up on ones that I'd already applied for. And so I just kind of hit the ground running. Although the first thing I wanted to do when I got out was like go to a tanning booth. I was so like, I'm pale now.

But I was like your shoes when I got out. I was like, I need some color so I don't feel like I'm a prisoner. You know what I mean? Wow, I've never heard that before. That was one of the first things I wanted to do, which was kind of silly, but it made me feel better. And so I had a little more confidence and then –

And, you know, it just made me feel better about myself so that I had more confidence going into places, applying for jobs and things like that. Did you stay friendly with people you were incarcerated with? Absolutely. Yeah. So there's a guy, you'll read about him in the book. His name is The Brain. He lives in Massachusetts. We get together, you know, often. Not as often anymore, but any time we get in touch, you know, we pick up right where we left off. And young Kim, unfortunately, has been deported back to Korea.

He did a foolish thing about six months before he got out. He divorced his wife, who was an American citizen, and then they said, out you go.

And another one of my good friends, Rick, is down in Baltimore. And the last time I was down there, I looked him up and we got together and had a meal and stuff like that. And you still talk to these individuals to this day? Yep. Not a lot, but every once in a while we reach out, you know, like, hey, what are you doing? What are you up to? And, you know, a lot of them have gone back. But most of the ones that were my – in fact, all the ones that were my core group –

Rick, Yong Kim, The Brain, they never went back. Why do you think those individuals went back? The other ones just, you know, they couldn't stay out of the game or they were just too tempted by, you know, drugs or whatever. But the ones that I spent the majority of my time in Fort Dix with, none of them ever went back. So the ones that I was closest with that were my, you know, confidants, they're all solid. Why do you think you never went back?

I was just ready to make that change. And honestly, between, I think, God and perseverance and preparation on my part, you know, I set out to make a life and not go back. And I just stuck with it. What do you think it takes for someone to get to that point?

You know, someone that's just getting out of prison and is, you know, kind of on the line of going back down a bad path. I think it's just got to be that internal switch is flipped, man, because like the first time I thought, OK, I'm going to I'm going to be done with this. I'm going to get my life together and I'm going to, you know, do things right. But I guess there was just still a reservation in the back of my head because once I got a job and everything was going pretty cool and I had a little bit of extra money in my pocket, I was like, OK.

I bet I could do it again, you know, and there's not even that thought this time. I just, it's just not in me. I don't, I don't want it. I want, you know, my wife and I have a grandbaby now and, you know, all my family that's in my life is forgiving me and loves me. And I just, I would never want to throw that away. And I couldn't do that to my mother again. My poor mother, you know, she stuck with me through everything and, you know, and

The fact that she's still alive and I'm able to be there for her and, you know, I take her shopping every week and, you know, we live in the same town and we get to spend time together. I couldn't take that away from her. And honestly, just the idea of going back to any of that stuff is just such a turnoff to me. How old was your child before you had the prison talk with them?

I think they just – they always knew. So when I ran away from California to come out here to try and run away from my problems, my daughter was 10 years old. My youngest one was 10 years old and the stepkids were obviously older. But I almost immediately, within a year, I was back in prison and their mom just told them the truth. So she was old enough to know. Yeah. Yeah.

Did you feel bad that you were incarcerated while she was – Horrible. But we eventually – I was able to connect with her and we'd write letters and stuff like that. And then as soon as I got out, we got to reconnect. And I mean the amount of guilt that I have over not only going to prison but not being there for so much of their life. And even when I was there, not taking care of them the way I should is – it weighs on me all the time.

The fact that we have a good relationship now is just a godsend because I can't imagine my life without him. Do you think that those feelings she experienced while you were away can ever be repaired on her part?

She certainly has said so. And I feel that it's true. I mean, we have a great relationship. We talk all the time. She's, I'm the one that she comes to when she needs advice or talking down from a ledge when she's all excited or worked up or upset about something. So, and,

And so I feel like we've got a really good relationship. And even though I can't take back what was done all those years ago, I feel like we're at a good place now. How long did it take you to get comfortable talking about prison to others? I know you were straightforward on that job application, but just in general, speaking in maybe a group of your friends or your wife or anything like that.

Almost right away because ever since that first job application – and the funny thing about that job application was is that my mom was driving me around because I didn't have a license yet. So we go to apply to this place, which is the place I work at now, and I go in to apply. I don't even know what this building does.

And they had paper applications in the lobby. And you fill it out. And it says, you know, call this number. Somebody will come and pick up the application. So I call the number. A woman opens the door and says, thank you. We'll be in touch. Closes the door. I'm like, I don't even know what I just applied for. And I go out to the parking lot. And my mom goes, this is where you're going to work. And she always has these premonitions. My mom does. And they're actually pretty accurate. I go, mom, I don't even know what they do here. She goes, nope, this is where you're going to work.

Fast forward a couple of weeks, that was my first job. And so I'm still working in that building. I left for a couple of years to go to a competitor, and then they reached out to me to come back. And now I'm back in that role, working in, you know, the Bering aerospace field. Has it been interesting to see how the world has changed their outlook about people that went to prison? Yeah.

Because I've noticed just a change since when I got out of prison. Yeah. And it's 100% has to do everything with social media. But what is it like for your perspective who got out of prison even sooner than, you know, I did? Yeah, like in the 90s in California, you got a record, you know, it is certainly like a scarlet letter back then. And now it's not that big a deal as long as people can see that, you know, you're not that person anymore and that you're sincere and honest about your past. Yeah.

And that was one of the things that got me the job where I'm at now is I'm like – I had my resume and I had some letters of recommendation but they were dated because it wasn't anything in the past six years. And so I say, you'll notice on my resume that for the past six years, I've been working at the Fort Dix Wellness Center. Well, just so you can know –

That is a prison and I was a prisoner there. But I did have a real job where I worked eight-hour days and I showed up every day and they were like, that's cool, man. They were like, I can't – I just can't see you doing that. I'm like, well, trust me. I did. And one job that I actually got hired for while I was waiting for the first place that I applied for to call me back was the UPS job.

And I told the woman all about my past. And I got hired. And my first day there, she pulled me aside and she goes, just so you know, your criminal background came back clean. I go, clean as in nothing other than what I told you about. And she goes, no, there's nothing on your criminal history. And I says, I think you're going to need to change companies that you check criminal backgrounds with because trust me, lady, there's stuff there. Yeah, actually, that's a good point. What I realized with that is –

They only pull up the state you're in most of the time and they check the federal sex offender registry. But they don't check – like none of my federal crimes when I applied to jobs came up. But they obviously go off the news article because they do like the press search or whatever. That's all it takes is a Google search nowadays. Yeah, but like apartments, it doesn't even come up. They just look at your state charges and all I have is a misdemeanor in Connecticut. Oh, you're good to go. Yeah, it's interesting to see that. But I'm just so straightforward and I feel like now when you have a platform, they're more –

hesitant to kind of deny you in a way because they're you're just gonna go out there and bash them for you know judging you plus you're a public figure now if you did something horrible to their apartment they'd be like look at what this works both ways yeah so like i could say something horrible about them if they did that to me and they can say something horrible to me about it so it works out good yeah exactly now um

Tell us about your life now, like the book, how that came about. I know you mentioned your wife convinced you to write that and what your life looks like. And you talked about your job as well. Yep. So nowadays the book came about because dinner parties, get togethers. I'm always telling these stories, you know, about young Kim. And I got to tell one story about young Kim real fast and then I'll go on with it. No, don't rush it. Give us the story. So young Kim liked to call everybody shorty. Yo shorty. And he also liked to call everybody a racist. Yeah.

Tongue in cheek. And so he was always accusing us of being racist and whatnot. And one day we're in the wellness department. He's behind his desk. I'm behind mine.

um this gentleman comes in clearly asian descent and he looks at kim and i apologize if this offends any of our asian listeners but he looks at kim and he goes he goes on and on for a minute or two and young kim just just sits like that and so the other guys in the room and i go kim what'd he say he goes

I don't know. He's Chinese. I'm Korean. Can't you tell the difference, you fucking racist? And we go, no, and neither could he. He's clearly been talking Chinese to you for two minutes. So don't call us racist. He's racist too. But anyways, so I love to tell these stories, you know, and to all my friends and dinner parties and stuff like that. And everybody always says, you got to write a book. You got to write a book. So I started compiling all these, you

you know, stories. At first, I just got the funny ones together and started jotting them down. And then I started realizing that, no, really, there is like a trajectory of my life where I really did, you know, turn the page and turn my life around. And so there's more to the story than just the humor. So I compiled the book and

I got my stepdaughter to agree to edit it. She's an English major. She's done editorial work before and just another one of the great, great women in my life that I dedicate the book to. And so I handed it over to her. And the first couple of edits was mostly just like, hey, you didn't really tell us a lot about the criminal part. I think the reader deserves to know that. And

And so she really transformed the book into what it is today. And so then I got the book. I told you about telling my in-laws about it and it took off. It did pretty well for a while. And then it started to die down. You know, sales kind of tapered off. And then my friend who I just happened to know because he used to be my neighbor who's a state representative of New Hampshire said,

Phil Jones, shout out to you, buddy. He came to me and he said, hey, would you mind if I help promote your book? He goes, I did sales my whole life and I just really got the itch. And I'm like,

Yeah, please. Please tell people about it. So he got me a couple of different times. I went on local radio and we got into the county jail to talk to inmates and a couple of different times. And he's gotten me to give, you know, talks at the local library and to different groups like the Rotary and the Kiwanis and people like this. And so he really helped me to get promoting the book again. And then my son-in-law was the one that suggested your podcast. So he's

He's a JAG lawyer for the Navy. So these are just like – I never would have been hanging around these people before if I just – God didn't put me in the right place at the right time and I didn't turn my life around. I never would have married my wife who was a – just a great Catholic girl.

I never would have met her or I would have met her, but she wouldn't have had anything to do with me if I hadn't turned my life around. So like I said, nowadays I'm an NDT and a metallurgical lab technician for an aerospace company. Life's going good. We have a grandbaby now. And, you know, life's,

We just we're just living our life and we like to go on vacation, get to go to, you know, overseas. I never had a passport before I met my wife. And she's like, that's number one. We got to go on vacation. So get your passport. And so now she's opened up this whole new world to me of, you know, going to the Caribbean and experiencing those things. So we're going to try to get my brother on that train now that he's a.

single. He had a long time. His partner had passed away recently, and now he's ready to, you know,

break out of his shell. And so we're going to take him with us probably next time we go on one of these vacations. Do you ever find yourself reminiscing about the prison days? Oh, all the time. It's such a different world that so few people... I mean, there are a lot of people that experience it, but in the grand scheme of things, so few people experience it. I think that's why there's this fascination with it. But it's just like its own island, its own experience. We're in an exclusive club and...

And it's good that we're tearing down – and I mean that's the whole reason of the book and why I give the talks when I do is like I'm just trying to give hope to people and just to show people – and your podcast is doing a great job of this, which is just like –

It's not an end-all, beat-all for somebody who's been in prison. So many of us are turning our lives around and making good and doing the right thing. Hope is out there. I have a friend whose daughter is going through a terrible bout of addiction. He sees me and he's read my book and he knows there's hope.

And it's just a matter of when is the switch going to flip in her head and in her heart, you know? I don't know if she's there yet, but I pray about it all the time. But it's like there is hope. But until it happens, something internally just happens where you're just done with it, you know? You're like, I'm so done with that. I'm not going to go down that path again. Yeah, and you know, in a world where there's like so much hate and there's so many people against each other, it's so like, to me, it's interesting that

So many people that are not alike can be brought together through the common experience they've all shared, which is like addiction or prison. And that can be inspiring to others too. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's amazing. And there's such a diverse group of us, you know.

In the club, like I say that. Yeah. And but we we could have vastly different crimes that we connect on that level, you know, just like, oh, what was your experience like? And that's that's why everybody loves your podcast, man. It's like it's such an eye opener. And even though a lot of our stories are similar, there's so many different aspects and people have different, you know, outlooks or views.

you know, come to different conclusions about how they feel about everything that happened. It's always interesting, no matter how many times you hear somebody's story. And people do love a comeback story, man. If you have changed your life and you're trying to make

Good. People want to help you. They want to be a part of that. Yeah. And I think every single person's story is important. I see. I read the comments all the time on all the platforms. And some people say, oh, this person wasn't a good storyteller or this shouldn't even have been on here and stuff. And I just think that, you know, if one individual story relates to one other person that's like them, that could be the change. Right.

So, of course, not every episode is going to be for every single person. But there's so many episodes where people could pick and choose what they want to see. If you don't like this guest, how they're speaking, how they're telling their story, you skip to the next one. It doesn't offend me. I'm sure it won't offend the guest because there's so many other people that find that relatable.

Yeah. Like I feel like I did a terrible job of explaining to myself. Like on the way down here, I was thinking of how it was going to go. It didn't go anything like that. So I hope somebody gets something out of this. No, I think you did great because you wrote a book. What I found, the people that write the book know how to keep it chronological. Sometimes a lot of guests that differ and go or won't bring it back. Like if you go to a sub story, you knew how to bring it back. And if you don't bring it back, then it's up to me to make sure it comes back.

to the point. But there are some people that are kind of all over the place, but it's their opportunity to share their story. It's not my place to dictate how you're going to share your story. As much as some people might want me to do that, that's not what the platform is about. It's so each person can shape their story the way they want it to be told. Yeah. You're good at just kind of like every once in a while giving a little guidance and a good little bump. Yeah. Shout out to Matt Griffin, my fellow Keene resident who was on here not long ago, who wrote a book. He

Yeah, he did a phenomenal job of explaining his story, and I bought his book and read it, and it really came out great. You know another one that I loved, and I can't remember the woman's name, but she was the one that was running the COVID shot. Yep, Julie. That one was especially great because it's like she was a normie. She wasn't a criminal person.

I mean, okay, she did a crime, but she wasn't a criminal at all. So it was fascinating to hear her take on something like that. So there's so many great different ones that you have on here that really are entertaining and informative. And you know what's interesting is that

And especially in her case, she's just a normal person. People love that about her. And everyone on this platform is normal people, normal individual people. And that's why it's relatable. But what I loved about Matt Griffin is he took the time to respond to every single person that reached out to him. And I think that's the power of it, too. You've got to build that community. He responded to me. Yeah. I just hit him up on social media and I was like, hey.

Ex-cop, I'm an ex-con. I'm from Keene. Yeah, and that's what I try to do. I think it's so important that people that reach out, as I get bigger, obviously, I have to have people do it for me. But it's important to include all of those people. If they want to come on the show, give them the opportunity to do that. I don't want to exclude anyone ever. Sometimes I try to stretch it.

um to get the like to work an angle for them so it fits the premise of the show yeah and that's why there might be some episodes that are kind of out of the realm but that individual wanted to come on the show and wanted the chance to because so many of us aren't given the opportunity to go on different bigger platforms yeah but f them we don't need them you know we got this and it's growing and that's all that matters so i want people to feel comfortable and and have that experience and

It's building legacy. Like long after we're gone, our interviews are going to be up there, our stories, you know? I think that's super cool. Yeah, it's fantastic. But Kevin, thank you so much, man, for coming on the show today. Thank you, Ian. I appreciate it. Yeah, I appreciate you, man. We'll have your link to this book in the description and everyone go check it out. Kevin hooked me up with a signed copy for the studio that I'm going to put on our shelf over there. Fantastic. Thank you. Thank you.