I Was Sent To A SUPERMAX PRISON For FRAUD | Ryan Thayer
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On today's episode of Locked In with Ian Bick, I interview Ryan Thayer, who spent years inside a Pennsylvania state prison after stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from his clients in his construction business. Make sure you guys like, comment, subscribe, and share. And if you're listening to this on our audio streaming platforms, please leave us a review. As always, thank you guys for tuning in to Locked In with Ian Bick.

Ryan Thayer, welcome to Locked In with Ian Bickman. Thanks for coming out here today. I always like to start at the beginning of someone's story. So where are you from? What was your childhood like growing up? I'm from Levittown, Pennsylvania. I played baseball, football, wrestling, and raced bikes my entire life. Basically went to school as a kid, played sports, and did construction. What kind of family do you come from? I have...

A brother, two sisters, a mom and dad, still married, not divorced, basic household. And what did they do for work? My dad was a union carpenter until he got in an accident, and then he retired in 92.

My mom was a nurse. She would go to work at nighttime while my dad was asleep, and she'd be a stay-at-home mom during the day. So a pretty normal family. Pretty normal family. And you guys had money or middle class? Yeah, middle class. We didn't have money, but we didn't really go without. You didn't struggle at all? No. What's middle school and high school like for you? Middle school was all right. We have a mixed crowd. You have some people that are struggling. You have some people that are doing well. That's pretty much it.

Uh high school. I didn't want to go to a regular high school. So I went to a votex school. What's that? It's a like you go for a trade So I already knew construction so I didn't want to go for carpentry. So I went for civil engineering civil engineering, you know dirt grade stuff like that So I figured if I was taught one way from my dad and my brother And the carpentry teacher wanted to teach me a different way instead of banging heads. I went for engineering something I had I didn't know anything about yeah

Now, do you go off to college after that or that was it? That was it. So you jumped right into your career right after high school? I jumped right into work. And what's the career you end up going for? Construction. And do you do that with anyone or you do it alone? Now, present? No, after high school. After high school, I worked for my dad. And what was like the dynamic of that? It was like a big company? It was a small company? It was a smaller company, five to 10 employees, did residential houses.

Like additions, roof and siding, windows. And how old are you at this point? 18. And is the business like successful? Is it struggling? It was doing good. And before you got into this business, you'd never committed like any crimes a day in your life?

No. What about a fight here and there and like going to Westchester, but that was about it. What about alcohol, drugs, anything like that? Never did a drug in my life. Never even smoked a cigarette. So I guess the thing that I'm surprised by is like you come from a good family, you're like clean, completely no issues. And then all of a sudden this turns into like a financial fraud case, essentially like with the, with the company. Yes and no. So I had, I didn't have a hundred percent control of the money cause I was dealing with insurance companies and

So the insurance companies were paying the public adjuster and then the public adjuster would pay the money in disbursements. So when the money started not coming in, instead of saying, you know what, I need to figure this out. I need to stop. I need to not do any more work. I thought I could fix it and continue taking deposits and working.

So that was the illegal aspect of it? The illegal aspect of it was taking the deposits to try to continue working and then not being able to finish the job. And who told you to, like, how did you learn about this? Was it your dad that showed you this? No, he had nothing to do with it. Him and my mom actually told me, don't get involved in insurance companies because it's not going to end well. But this is your dad's company? Correct. And you're doing, and he said it was okay for like you to deal with the insurance companies? Yes and no. He didn't. So I would do my work.

I would do my work as my own. And then he had his own business, essentially, that he did the roofing the side and the additions.

So he wasn't solely with me. We weren't solely together, is all I should say. But it was tied together. But it wasn't until it became a criminal matter, then it was. So did he know it was a criminal matter? Like once an investigation eventually started, was he like running it with you at any point? No, he was involved. Like if I said, hey, can you go pick up a check? That was it. He would go pick up a check. So because he picked up a check, he became...

I guess like an accomplice. And at no point, like he catches wind and says, Hey Ryan, like you shouldn't be doing this or talking you out of it. I didn't really, nobody really knew the magnitude of what it was. Except for you. Yes and no. So I really, I was dumb to it. Cause like I said, we, I never been in trouble. I didn't really know like how, I didn't know it was a thing until it actually got, until I got called and said, you need to turn yourself in.

And even when I turned myself in, they were like, it's for contractor fraud. And I'm like, I have insurance. I have my GC number. I have everything that I need to have. How is it fraud? So you weren't aware at the time that it was fraud when you were doing this? So I kept trying to work to make it right. So my eyes was, I wasn't like...

Hey, Ian, you gave me a check for 50 grand. I went and bought a Maserati. It was you gave me a check for 50 grand. I went and finished somebody else's job in order to get that money to pay to finish your job. So it was like a construction Ponzi scheme. Basically. But you unwillingly were doing this.

Like you didn't necessarily know it was a Ponzi scheme at the time. You were just like trying to keep the business. I was trying to keep, I was trying to make everybody whole and keep everything to make sure that the guy still had payroll and make sure any vendor didn't get beat out of money. But what was like the cause of,

That forced you into needing this extra cash? Did you have like one job that went bad or something like that? I had a couple of jobs that the checks were supposed to come in and they didn't come in. The client like bailed out? No, it wasn't the client. It was controlled by a third party, by a public adjuster. And you just got screwed out of that money. So the public adjuster was saying, well, there's not...

there's not enough work done for them to give me the check or we're still waiting on a check. So instead of saying like, Hey, listen, I can't finish your house until I get this check. I was too proud to be like, Hey, listen, and you're not gonna be able to live in your house for six months because your insurance still owes me a check. It was a, all right, I'm going to get your house done as fast as I can, no matter what it takes. And then it got to the point where it was too far. It was too far gone to be able, like I was 20,

Three years old, I didn't have access to money. It wasn't like I could take a hard money loan for a million dollars and finish these houses and then pay back a bank. Yeah, but wouldn't the adjusters eventually have to pay you to make it all right? Yeah, but like I said, instead of telling them, listen, I'm not doing any more work, I would keep trying to do the work.

But like don't eventually they got to pay or no? Yes, they have to pay. So you can't, like they have to, they have a thing what they call depreciation or your holdback. Once your job is 75, 80% done, they release your depreciation or your holdback. But if you build faster than they do their inspections. So like the way it works is they'll come out, they'll do the inspection. They'll say, all right, listen, we're going to demo this entire house. All right, fine. Here's a check for 50 grand. Now you build 50 grand worth of,

You build 50 grand worth of billables. Now you can either say, Hey, listen, I got to stop because I'm waiting for the insurance company. Don't take a week to come out. So now you're not working for a week. Don't look at the house. They'll say, okay, you have the demo done. The concrete is done. The framing is done. The electric's done. Now we owe you another check for your plumbing HVAC insulation drywall. So, okay, we're going to cut you that check. Now it might be another two weeks until you get that check. So now you're like, Hey, listen,

I have, I'm not working at your house for the next three weeks until I get that check. Now you get that check in three weeks, you do your electric, your plumbing, your HVAC, you get that done. Now, once you get that done, once again, they have to come out and have to do an inspection. So instead of playing their game and saying, all right, I'm going to do the work, you're going to inspect it. Then I'm going to do the work. Then you're going to inspect it. I would just constantly keep doing the work and then waiting for them to pay. So what's like your mindset? Why did you want to do that?

Was that just like being young and not knowing anybody? It was just young and wanting to just build as fast as I could. And is that how like your dad operated his business? No, not even close. So did you, do you feel like you were in like a competition with him or you wanted to? No, I don't, I don't really know what the, what the drive to build as fast as I did was. Yeah. And it was just like growing the company more, I guess. Yeah, I guess so. So had these adjusters paid you on time, it never would have been an issue and everything would have went flawlessly. Yeah.

I mean, you're always going to have problems, but yeah, it would have been a lot smoother then. So if you have a job that's based off of

scheduled payments, like for a customer, you say, all right, I'm going to rip your roof off today. I'm going to put your roof back on today. I'm going to be done today. So, you know, you're only floating that money for 24 to 48 hours. You buy your material, you pay for your dumpster. They pay you, you cast a check, you move on to the next. Yeah. Or if you do a kitchen or an addition, you, they give you your money. You say, all right, I'm going to do this, this, this, this, and this. When I get to this stage, you're going to give me another check. So you constantly have cashflow, uh,

So unless you're going out partying or spending it recklessly, you're always funding the job with the way your payment plans set up. Now, how stressful was this? Like moving this money around and kind of having to stay afloat through other jobs. Were you ever worried that like the jobs would dry up and then the cash flow would run out? I was pretty good at staying involved in the community and sponsoring stuff and being at events and sponsoring little leagues. And I was a high school wrestling coach. So everybody knew what I did. So yeah,

You had a little bit of social media, but it was mostly word of mouth. So people would see what you do and they would say, hey, listen, I just got my roof done. He did it. He did it in a day. Everything was clean. Oh, I want my sign done. Then it kind of just word of mouth. Yeah. So you didn't have to. So was it, could it dry up? Yeah. But you had to make sure it didn't. So where does it all go wrong then? Because this could have kept going, I guess, forever, right? It could have kept going, especially with the way construction is now after COVID. Yeah.

it's there's like a construction boom everywhere anywhere you drive by people are doing construction so you just ultimately need a few more years longer i guess right or a couple hundred thousand dollars at that time so what's like the day that it starts to unravel uh so the one day um i'm at work i get a call from a detective and he says you need to come turn yourself in for construction fraud and i'm like all right when he's like well when can you and i was like uh

Well, I'm on a job, not really in the area. This is like a Tuesday. I'm like, can we do it on Friday? He's like, yeah, it's fine. Do it on Friday. So now I'm like, all right, well, it can't be that serious. Like he's letting me pick when, when I show up. Yeah. So I show up on like a Friday. I walk into the building and, uh, I'm there. He takes a picture of me. He fingerprints me. He does everything you do when you get, I guess, essentially arrested. And, uh, he goes, the judge doesn't want you to, the judge doesn't want to bring you in because you're,

You're a pillar in the community and she doesn't want the media to have a field day. So we're going to let you go on ROR bail. So I'm like, okay. Then I'm like, what's that mean? I know what it means. I've never been in trouble before. I don't know what R. So he's like, it means we'll send you a court date in the mail and then you can show up.

So you're thinking it's not that serious at all. So I'm thinking it's like, okay. So obviously something serious. Cause I just had to go to a police station and get fingerprinted. And, but if they're letting you out, it can't be that bad. But if they're letting me out, I'm thinking, okay, what do they ask you any questions while you're at the police station? No information at all. So they just arrest you. That's it. No detectives. No, the guy that was there was a detective. Yeah. It was, it was just one detective. And he said, uh,

This is your charges. He showed me a little seat sheet. He did the fingerprint, the mugshot. And then he was like, yeah, we'll send you a court date. And who are they saying are like the victims of this construction fraud? There was five that filed a complaint against you. Now, are these people that gave you deposits that because the cash flow dried up, you couldn't start their work or their job? Couldn't continue. You couldn't continue to finish. So had you been able to find more clients, you would have been able to finish their jobs? Yeah.

Yeah, but then it would have been basically the same. It would have been different people. You would have been repeating the same. Yeah. Until you finally either got a really good job that there was enough profit or you found a way to borrow money. It would have been the same thing.

So you didn't really need like a loan, I guess. I basically just needed a loan to finish. And you couldn't get any loans through the cashflow of this business with a bank or anything? I, I was, I didn't use credit. I used, it was always like cash. It was always cash. So I didn't owe like anybody money. When you got arrested, do you tell your mom and dad at all?

I didn't have to. It was all over the newspaper. Oh, so they did put it in the newspaper. Oh, yeah. It was all over the internet. So I thought they didn't want it to have like a field. They didn't want me to go to the courthouse that day. Yeah. But then once it became public records, then it was. So how does your dad get tied up into this? Because he went and picked up checks also. So they charged him the same day or when does he get arrested? Um.

I think he was either the same day or like the day after he, and he gets arrested. What does he say to you? Cause he probably didn't know this was coming. Um, he actually knew before me. He knew before you. Yeah. Is he mad at you? Um, not really. He's just like, whatever, not whatever, but he was like, you know, he's, I'm still a son. So he's not really. Yeah. Yeah. Is your mom mad at him about the situation at the time? Uh, I think my mom was a little more upset than she was mad. And what about your siblings? What are they thinking? Um,

They're my sisters. My sisters were scared. Me and my brother don't talk, so I don't really care. And what about like the community, your other clients are like, are you losing more business now because of this? So now I work for somebody I don't work for myself. Okay. But at first I thought like, man, this is going to kill me. Like all I do is construction. So I thought I was like, all right, I'm never going to, I'm never going to do this again. But then I started,

People actually started reaching out like, hey, can you do this for me before you go away? Or can you do this for me before you go away? So I would call a detective and be like, hey, listen, this person just asked me if I can do a job for them. And it's directly across from the courthouse. Like, are you cool with me doing this? And he was like, yeah, we know you're doing it. You're still licensed. You're still insured. So technically, you can do it. The judge didn't stop you from working under your name.

I'm like, okay. Cause I, that time I wasn't sentenced. Yeah. So I was like, okay. So people that knew me were like, um, Hey, can we do this? Can we do that? Can we do this? So some people knew that, um, the situation that it was a money situation. It wasn't a me trying to be like malicious. Yeah. And they were like, all right, well, can I try to get worked on? Why, why he's still around? I guess. How long were you on bail for like awaiting a trial or something? Oh,

16 months. 16 months this was going on. So what year is this and how old are you? It was 2014. I was 24. You're 24 years old, never been charged. This was like literally one big like unintentional accident, I guess you could say. And your dad played like little to no role in it. That goes to show you like how twisted the media could be too. Because when I was like looking up your case in the articles, they like

they put a lot of blame on your dad and even like it, I guess it sells more father and son construction fraud and whatnot. Do they give you a plea deal? Um, so they come to my house numerous times, try to talk to me. I'm like, listen, I don't, I don't know what you want me to talk about. I got, I don't got nothing for you. So I go see, I go see a lawyer for my prelim. He goes, this is real simple. This is civil, not criminal. I'm like, okay.

He goes, give me five grand. I'll get it thrown out in your prelim. I'm like, all right, fine. No problem. Get the five grand. I give it to him. The night before I go to my prelim, he calls me and says, yeah, you got a $2,500 balance. I'm like, you told me five grand. He goes, yeah, it's going to be 2,500 more. I'm like, all right, it's six o'clock at night. There's no banks open. How am I supposed to get $2,500? He goes, well, if you can't get it, when we go to court tomorrow, we'll tell the judge that they can wait while you go tap Mac.

I'm like, there is no way in hell I'm going to tell the judge that you guys were all waiting for me to go get money when I'm in front of her for money. So I, one of my buddies gave me the 2,500. I give it to him. We go to court. We're in court. Everybody's like, um, you know, did he do work in your house? Yes. Did he not finish your job? Yes. So I go through to people, the judges like, um, because of the magnitude of this and your involvement in the community, I have to send it to higher court, which would be Doyle's time for us. Um,

people that know know if you go to dualstown it means you're going somewhere you're either going to the county you're going so you're doing jail time you're doing jail time yeah you're doing so he goes come see me on like a tuesday or wednesday i'm like all right this is a very laid-back court i go see him and he goes um yeah i want 25 grand the lawyer i'm like so you want 17 5 he's like 18 5 he's like no i want 25 i'm like dude you want 32 000 just something you told me it was civil not criminal

He's like, well, we're going to be in trial for seven days. I'm like, you told me it was civil, not criminal. Now you want $32,000. He's like, yeah. So I'm young. I've never been in trouble in my life. And I'm like, no, I'm not giving it to you. Yeah. It just wasn't happening. And do you get a new lawyer at this point? No, I went the entire time with no lawyer. You did it yourself. I did it. I did it without knowing. Without knowing. So I did know. I went to, I showed up the one day, um,

And like Dickie's in a safety green shirt. And they were like, you ready to go to trial? I'm like, no. You went to trial on your own. I didn't. I never made it that far. So I show up like street clothes, work clothes. Yeah. And they're like, you ready to go to trial? I'm like, no. Then they're like, all right, well, we're not ready. We're going to continue it. I'm like, okay. So they continue it. So now five months go by. I'm like, shit, I got court again. Do the same thing. Show up in street clothes. They're like, we're not ready again. We're going to continue it.

I'm like, okay. So now they actually started reaching out to me like, yo, you got representation? I'm like, no, I'm working on it. When you get a public defender or something? Because they told me I made too much money. They said you were making too much? Yeah. So did you ever think to like go to like the alleged victims and say, hey, can we work out a payment plan or something like that? At that point, I didn't think I was allowed to talk to anybody. At that point, I kind of just like, at that point, I was like, you know what? I have...

I have a wife and two kids. No matter what happens, I still have a wife and two kids. At this age, you have a wife and two kids. At this age, yeah. So I had a four-year-old and a two-year-old. Yeah. So I was like, I still have to make sure that, you know, they're taken care of. So instead of trying to get representation...

I answered an ad on Craigslist about running a piece of heavy equipment working down at a steel mill. Yeah. So I'd work six o'clock at night to six o'clock in the morning down in a steel mill running an excavator in the hole of a ship. Yeah. Loading out sugar or whatever. Then I answered another ad about running a piece of equipment for a place in...

like North Jersey. So I would leave there at six. I would drive an hour to the job in Jersey. I would sleep in my truck for like 15, 20 minutes. I'd work there from seven to four. I would drive back home. I get home at five. I would take a shower, eat dinner with the kids. I would hang out for like, you know, 20 minutes and I would go do it all over again. So when did you sleep? I was sleeping in a truck for like 15, 20 minutes a day. And how long were you doing this for?

four months. How is that even sustainable? I'm surprised you didn't like die from this. That's crazy. When you've got to, you got to provide. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I was like, I didn't know, I didn't know what was going to happen. So I was like, I can't,

Obviously, I can't go build houses because I'm not trying to get in more trouble, but I have to make sure I take care of my family. And what's your dad doing at this time? He was just retired, so he wasn't doing anything. Did he have a lawyer too? I don't think so. So he was just going with the flow too. Yeah. So you guys are both super laid back about these criminal charges. Yeah. So when do you... I wouldn't say laid back. I would say... Just like going with the flow? Like not...

In an honest world, I thought the justice system was fair. Yeah. I didn't think it was the way it is. I'll put it that. I don't think we all do. I'll leave it at that. Yeah. So when do you actually sign paperwork for a deal or anything like that? I didn't. You went to trial? No. So the very last day before, the very last day, the very last time I go to court, I show up, I meet the DA and a detective in the back room. And they're like, you ready to go to trial? Yeah.

So I'm like, no. So I'm not knowing that if I would have said, yeah, they would have set a trial date and I could have went to trial and maybe I'd have realized the severity of it and I would have got a lawyer. So they're like, are you ready to go to trial? And I'm like, no. And they're like, listen, well, we're not allowed to tell you what to do. But if I was you, I'll just plead no contest. You pleaded no contest? So I plead no contest. Oh, man. So I go in front of the judge and the judge is like, um,

did anybody force you to sign this paperwork? And I'm like, technically, no. They didn't have a gun to my head to say sign it. But they were like, persuade, yeah. They were like, should you... They were like, did anybody force you to sign this? Did you know what you were signing? No. At that point, I couldn't even spell contest if you asked me. I didn't even know where the hell I was. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I'm like, no. And they were like, all right, so...

I go, the judge gets done and the judge is like, the problem I'm having is you have a 0.00 gravity score. Once again, I have no idea what the hell gravity score even is. You have a 0.00 gravity score. You've never been in trouble in your life. You've never done a drug in your life. You've been involved in the community, but because of the severity of it, I have to sentence you. I have to make an example out of you. So nobody else tries to do this. Six to 20 years in a prison prison.

with 20 years probation. 20 years probation? And then they said, all right, you know, court over take him away. So I'm like, whoa, hold on. Can I get like a delayed execution? Like I just drove here drinking Starbucks thinking I'm going home and now I'm going to prison for six years.

And the DA's like, no, it's been going on long enough. Get him out of here. So they just handcuffed you? Handcuffed you and gone. That's the first time you were ever handcuffed in your life? Yeah, gone. What's going through your mind when that happens? So I think at that point it was like, all right, I can't worry about, and this is like, I guess messed up to say, I can't really worry about anybody else. I'm going to somewhere I've never fathomed even being or even know anything about it. Survival mode. What's like your first phone call?

my first phone call was to my wife at the time. And just to say, Hey, I'm not coming home for the next six years. Oh, she was at that. So when I got sentenced, when they said six to 20 years, I was like, um, shit, six to 20 years is a long time. My kids are gonna be grown. Like I'm gonna miss my first son's first day of elementary school. Like all this, all this stuff's going, nothing's going through my head. Like, wow, I'm going to miss going to a baseball game. I'm going to, I'm like,

dude i'm gonna miss my son's first day of first grade like i'm gonna miss his first baseball game i'm more worried about missing my children stuff than me like i'm not gonna say that i'm like the toughest dude in the world especially going to prison i don't know anything about but you're not gonna break me like i wrestled my entire life you know you you don't eat you don't sleep you i was sleeping in a truck to make sure so me i was like all right i'll figure it out but i was more worried about like my kids so i was like yo can i hug my wife and they're like no and i'm like

I'm going to hug my wife. I'm already going to jail. What are you going to do? Put me in jail? Yeah. You know what I mean? So then when I, when I called her, I think it was the first, like, I think in the county you get 15 minute, 15 or 20 minute phone calls. But I think the entire time was just crying because it was like, we just drove to, we just drove to court together. Now you're not coming home for six years. Yeah. Maybe six years. Cause that's, that's your front number.

So do you ever get to like meet with a lawyer to say when you're going to go home or anything like that? Do you have any legal advice after that? So now I get sent away to the county jail. I get to the county jail. You got to go through process and book and all the, all the stuff. They have like a case manager at the top. So you have to write a request to see the case manager. If you're not one of the case managers puppets, you don't really get to see her. So finally after like the second day of being there, not knowing what's going on, I'm like,

what the hell is going on like i'm just here like i was like an animal yeah so uh i go up to the case manager and i knock on her door and i'm like yo do i get like a phone call or something so she goes uh sit down so i sit down she goes um june 23rd 2015 um oh wait you're a state inmate yeah your state property get out who's gonna get out i'm like get out i was like don't i get a phone call and she's like uh oh yeah you got money on your books you can use the phone down there

So I'm like, okay, I see what this is going for. Yeah. So then technically you stay in the county jail for like a month or two before they send you away. I was in the county jail for about three days. They sent me right to a super max prison.

To serve your whole sentence? No. So I go right to a prison called Graterford. It's like well-known in Philadelphia. It's where you don't want to go. And this is a max security prison? Super max. Why are they sending you to a super max? So the way PA does it, they have assessment, but you go through two different facilities for assessment before you go to your home jail. So I find out that the judge gave me a reconsideration.

So they're like, all right, you get a reconsideration, which has to be done within 30 days after you get sentenced. So they sent me to Graterford, the Supermax. You walk into Graterford. It was built in like 1890. It's old as hell. Obviously no air conditioning, no, no call buttons in the cell. The blocks are 200 yards long. There's a tier in the center. As you're walking down the block, the guys that are there are hanging out the door and

trying to get you to sell them your three whites, your underwear, your socks, and your t-shirt for cigarettes. Really? So you're walking down this 200-yard block, and all the windows are broken out, so you just see everybody's hands out on the tier like, yo, give me two underwear for a cigarette. And these kids are coming from the county jail where they haven't smoked in forever. So they're like, oh, shit, I can sell my underwear for cigarettes? Yeah, let me get that. Because they're just, they're not, like, their mind is so...

instant gratification that they're like, I want a cigarette. I'm going to be in this dirty ass place for who knows how long until I can get commissary or money to buy whatever. So then you go to Gradyford for assessment. You stay there normally for like two months. I was there for like two weeks. They sent me to the second place for assessment called SCI Camp Hill. I go to SCI Camp Hill. I'm there for like two weeks again. Now SCI Camp Hill is

Like right here. Graterford's like right here. And Green, uh, Benner is like right here in the center of the state. So the way PA moves you, everybody goes to Benner. You get to Benner. Benner's like a Greyhound shipping hub. You get there, they process you, put you on a bus, say, all right, you're going to Graterford. You drive three and a half hours in the box back to where you started at Camp Hill. So you can use the bathroom, but not get off the bus. Then go from Camp Hill to Graterford.

So you start in Camp Hill at 3 a.m., you get back to Camp Hill at 5 p.m., and you get degraded for the 80 o'clock at night. Wow. Stupid. Now, do you look the way that you look now when you were going into that prison? 100%. So you had the tattoos, you were well built. Yeah. How are people reacting to you in prison? So when I'm in the county, I was like, all right, I'm not wanting to take my shirt off. I don't ever take my shirt off. I've been like this my entire life, but I'm like, I just don't take my shirt off. I don't know. I don't care. I don't do it. Okay.

So I was like, when I'm in a county, the county is like powder puff. It's college. It's college without the girls. And I got in trouble for saying that because they played my phone calls and they were like, is it true you said this shit's a joke? And I'm like, yeah, there's 50 fires, TVs mounted on the wall. Like, yeah, it is. But they used that against me. So...

I'm like, all right, I'm going to go to the shower. So I'm sitting there and as weird as it sounds, you watch everybody. You see like, you know what time this guy gets on the phone. You know what time this guy showers. You know what time this guy doesn't shower. You watch everybody. And because I was used to running work and coaching, I was militant to see how everybody moved.

So I'd watch guys go to the shower and I'm like, all right, this dude's wearing sneakers. This dude's wearing shorts and a t-shirt. This guy has just towel, whatever. So I'm like, you know what? I'm probably the biggest guy on the block and I'm covered in tattoos and I got a bald head. I'm going to go to the shower in shower shoes, boxers, holding my towel in my hand. So I come out of the tier and I walk to the shower, shower. I come back, uh, the next day I'm down in like the day room and the dude that was in with me, he goes, uh,

Yeah, yesterday when you went to the shower all the guys in the day room were like damn How many years does your cell you have been upstate and he was like, yeah He's never been in trouble in his life and they're like, what do you mean? He's like, that's just how he looks And like that guy's never been upstate and he was like he's never been in trouble in his life So you just carried yourself a certain way. So the way I the way I Anytime they moved me every place they moved me was a supermax. I don't know why but they're moving to a supermax so the

Second Supermax they sent me to was the worst Supermax in the state. It's where they sent people that can't behave. So if you were an asshole, that's where you went. So they moved me there, and they moved me there, and I'm in assessment again, and everybody keeps getting called. And I'm like, all right. Now I see the five COs come in with a lieutenant with his camera. I've been moved enough times that that means you're going through a hole. They're like, there, cuff up. I'm like, fuck my cuffing up for it.

So they turn around and turn around and walk to the slot. So I'm like, all right, turn around and walk to the slot. They coughed me up. We started walking. I'm like, where am I going? They're like the hole. For what? I'm like, what am I going to the hole for? It's like bed space. I'm like, so you move me from a assessment place that is meant you stay there until they find a home jail that suits your security level and your program needs. I'm a zero with no programs. I just have 50 months to serve.

But you're moving me to the hole. So they're like, you're going to the hole. Okay. So now I go into this like little box. It's like a little three by five box and you have to get strip searched. I've already been strip searched five times and haven't left the box. So what do you strip search me again for? But all right. So I get in this little ass cage and it has cameras everywhere because the guys act like assholes and get maced. So it has to be documented. So I'm like, all right. So I give everything out of the slot. The one CEO was like, give me your wedding ring. I'm like, no. He's like, give me your wedding ring. I'm like, I'm not giving you my wedding ring. He goes, uh,

you're gonna give me your wedding ring i'm like what are you gonna do put me in a hole i'm not giving you my rendering so the lt's like uh get dressed i'm like all right i'm getting dressed we're walking down the hallway the uh lt goes right there i'm like what's up he goes uh i've never seen somebody give such a hard time about a wedding ring i'm like lt no disrespect you guys just moved me six hours away from my home i'm on the opposite side of the state i'm going to the hole like what what else do i have like that's everything i got left like i'm not i'm not giving it to you so i'm

Now I'm like, I'm in the hole. I don't know what the hell is going on. So like CO comes by. I'm like, yo, CO, is there any rules I have to follow? He's like, no. I'm like, all right. So there was rules. At 6 a.m., you had to be on your door with your light on. That meant you were signing up for a shower. I didn't know that because he told me there was no rules. So I'm like, yo, CO, do I get a cup kit? So anytime they move you, you get brown paper bag lunch, brown paper bag breakfast. Like legit, when you go on break, you eat breakfast.

peanut butter an orange drink and like a fucking apple yeah that's what you eat every time they move you yeah so at this point i'm like i don't want to eat dude i don't care i was like um do i get a cup kit so they'll give you a little white cup it has like a deodorant that makes you smell like raw onions you don't use it you're just beat is that the bob barker shit yeah exactly yeah don't even try it just go without you know what i mean so they give you that they give you this little last like safety toothbrush um shaving cream but you don't get a razor because you're in the hole so it's just stupid and then toothpaste that

You might as well use your finger or whatever. So I'm like, yo, I got a cup kit. He's like, I'll see what I can do. So he drives by, drops the meal slot, throws something in. Like, I did something wrong. Like, I didn't do shit, bro. You just moved me. Like, I didn't beat up a CO. I didn't, whatever. So I'm like, whatever, I'm just going to go to bed. So I put the shit on. I got to brush my teeth. And I'm like, what the hell is this? I look at it. The bitch gave me shaving cream. So I'm like, it's a motherfucker. So I, whatever. So now I start hearing at like 3 a.m., I hear all this noise. It's like, whoosh.

I'm like, what the hell is going on? So I'm on a second tier. They turn all the lights on. I look out the tier and everybody's standing on their bottom bunk. The assholes are flooding the block. They're flushing their jumpsuits on the second floor and then flooding the block because the guy on the top tier doesn't get along with the guy on the bottom tier. So he knows if he rips his mattress apart or sheet apart and...

flushed it down a toilet and holds onto it, he can keep flushing and you'll flood the entire block. Yeah. So now the entire block is flooded with water. I'm standing on second tier. Like I'm in here like some kind of animal for a money crime. Uh, they do some dusky from Penn state. Yeah. He's two doors down from me. You were near Sandusky. Yeah. I'm like, why are we even in the same facility? Did you talk to him at all? No. Cause he was too, he was two cells down. Now he was in solitary his whole time. He was in solitary. So yeah,

They come around and do showers. So I'm watching them do showers. I'm on the door like you're supposed to. I'm in my boxers. I got my shower shoes on. I forget how you had to hold your towel. You had to hold your towel a certain way. But I'm standing on the door like, all right, I'm going to shower. So I see the CO hits this door, hits this door, skips my door, hits the other door. Now, when you walk in solitary, you're fully cuffed behind the back. You have to go there, whatever. I'm like, I don't care. I just want to shower. So the CO skips my door. I'm like...

Fuck. So I'm like, yo, CO, what's up with the shower? He's like, oh, you weren't on the gate at 5 a.m. I'm like, yo, CO, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but nobody told me that. He's like, well, now you know. So you had to miss a shower. So I had to miss a shower. So I'm like, this is stupid. So now they do their yard. You get your one hour a day, whatever. CO comes over to me and goes, yo, you want to go to the yard?

Now you're in a cage by yourself. And I'm like, yeah, I want to get out of here. Of course I want to go to yard. He goes, just like, you know, they're out there throwing cups of shit and piss at each other. I'm like, yeah, I'll just stay in here. Like I'm not going out there. How long does this continue for that? You're in the hole. I was in the hole for 22 days. So this is your, your very first couple of months in prison. You're spent half of it already in the hole. Like those first couple of months. Yeah. So I'm, I'm moved at that point. I moved six times already. Yeah. And then I get put in the hole and,

Now I'm in the hole and they're like, yeah, there you go into you're going to GP. I'm like, I don't know what GP is, but it's better than this. So I'm like, cool. So then I get I get onto a block and I'm walking around and they have the placards on top. It'll say like level two, level three, level four. And then obviously the hole is level five. That's how they you go from a level one to one, two, three, four, five is the hole. So I go I'm walking to the block and it's a level five block.

I'm like, these fucking people. Why am I going to a level five block? So I walk into the block and it was the first block that I was ever on at the second tier actually had fences. So I'm like, yo, what's the fence there for? He's like, so me or you don't get thrown off. I'm like, this is great. This is fucking awesome. So now I get put in with a dude that was the dirtiest person in the world. Like the dirtiest human being. As a cellmate. As in life. Like this dude probably came from the gutter. And what do you say to him? I walked in and

He's like dug in as hell, doesn't want nobody in his cell. And I look at my thing and it says I'm bottom bunk. He's on the bottom bunk. And I'm like, I have 50 months. Do I really want to deal? Like, I don't know. I don't know how this works. Do I really want to start a fight with this guy? So I'm like, well, no, I'll just find I'll go on the top bunk. So go on the top bunk. And this time it's too late for any kind of movement. This dude would sit on his bed and roll cigarettes and smoke them like this as he's rolling them.

So now if I'm trying to sleep, he's either, it's either on my back or it's in my face. So I'm like, this fucking guy's killing me. I'm like, I can't, I can't, I can't live like this. So I'm on a block a couple of days and I go to some of the guys. I'm like, yo, what's like, what's up with this dude? And they're like, he never, nobody ever laughs at him. And I'm like, what do you want me to do? Like, what am I supposed to do? They're like,

uh go tell the co that he's spoken in the cell and i'm like i'm not i'm not going to tell the co do you spoken in the cell like i'm not ratting this dude out so they're like um you have to stay on the block for 30 days before you can request a cell move and everybody on that cell was either medically coded to be on that cell or it was like you go there until bed space opens up somewhere else so you're really not meant to stay on that block for a long time but they didn't know they had nowhere to put me so they were like i go see unit manager and he's like

Dude, I don't even know why you're here. He's like, you're level two. You don't have a program. He goes, why'd I sent you here? I have no idea. There's nothing for you to do. Just don't get in trouble. And I'm like, when am I eligible for a cell move? He goes, if a bed opens up, I'll give you a cell move. But besides that, you're stuck there.

I'm like, all right, cool. There's literally nothing worse than having a bad cellmate. Like I've been in some shitty ass situations where the guy smells, there was one guy, his fingernails were like super, super long and didn't shower, didn't do anything, just fucking weird. So what's going on with like your dad at this time? Do you talk to him? Do you know what's going on with his sentence? Not really. So I didn't, I isolated myself from like everybody. So there was like three people I talked to the entire 50 months I was away.

And if I talked to somebody and they were like, so-and-so was asking about you, I'm like, all right, well, they can write a letter. And if they didn't write a letter, I didn't even try to like, I didn't ask. I didn't ask what was going on outside the walls because one, it didn't pertain to me. And two, I didn't do anything about it. Did you know your dad got sentenced to prison though? He got sentenced the same time as me. Oh, the same day? Yeah, same day. Did you feel bad about that at all? I mean, of course, because I'm, once again, I'm 220 pounds. He's

50 years old with a triple bypass or broken neck or broken back, he's not in any shape to be dealing with that. How much time did he get? He got 60 months. He got longer than you? Yeah. Why would he get longer than you? Because he didn't show any kind of remorse at sentencing. But he didn't really do anything wrong. He was just... But my sentencing guidelines were...

My sentencing guidelines for a zero on the gravity score and never being in trouble in your life. The only thing that carried the sentence they gave me was weapons of mass destruction, rape on a minor under the age of like 13 and like homicide. Was there a lawyer that you could have reached out to to maybe for an appeal or no, because of your play? I reached out to a lawyer. I paid a lawyer for my reconsideration and that's why I kept going back and forth on writ and I

I hired like the most powerful, what they say, most powerful lawyer in my County for my reconsideration. Um,

When that happened, there was a guy that killed five affluent kids in a really rich neighborhood. So that was like the biggest breaking news. Wait, was that the kid that the other kid that killed the kids in the field or whatever? Yeah. That kid. So his his I was already down for like maybe a year and a half when his stuff came through. Yeah. So everybody wanted to take his case because that was like.

Not only does nobody get killed in Bucks County, you don't kill five people don't get killed in Bucks County, especially in New Hope. It doesn't happen. So everybody that was an appealing case for everybody. They wanted to be they wanted that case. Yeah. So the guy I hired, I didn't get I end up getting like his assistant. So I get his assistant and they move me all over the state again. I come back down. I see him and I walk in and the dude looks like a Ken doll.

And he's like, yeah, how are you making out? I'm like, I've been moved 20 times in the last 20 months. He's like, yeah, you're going to have to go in there and tell me you have a drug problem. I'm like, no, I'm not doing that. He goes, what do you mean? Like, you're making him mad at me. I'm like, I'm not going to go in there and tell him I have a drug problem. He's like, dude, you better tell him something. I'm like, I coached high school wrestling my entire life. I've never done a drug in my life. I'd rather 50 people know what I'm going through than 50 people be like,

He didn't do drugs. He's just doing that for a lesser sentence. I wasn't lowering my standards to play the system of the justice system. Yeah. Are your kids coming to visit you or you didn't let them? So county, I only let them come like one time because I don't want them seeing me through glass. Then I made it like a goal to get closure to my home. So I was in Greene County. You're not allowed to get a move for two years.

until you can request a move. The only way you can request a move is a hardship, and you're not getting it until tonight. So I'm in Green, which is six and a half hours away from them. They came up one time then, and I didn't want them being in a car for six hours to come see me and then driving home tired six hours. I don't want to be away from them, but I also didn't want to disturb their life with having to deal with

With that, you know what I mean? Yeah. So I was at green. They came once. Then out of nowhere, one night I could use the phone. My phone shut off. That usually means they're moving you. So now I'm like, fuck me. It moved again. So now they wake you up at three 30 in the morning. He moved again. Now they moved me from green to Pittsburgh. Now I'm at SCI Pittsburgh. I get to SCI Pittsburgh. SCI Pittsburgh was built in like 1870. It's like a castle. So now I get there and, uh, I was there and, um,

Same thing. I'm like an assessment block. It's five tiers high. It's like an old, old ass castle. So I get put in a cell with a guy. And at this point I'm just pissed off that I keep getting moved. So now I'm not going to say I'm turning a little more into like an inmate, but I'm starting to get a little more like there's no incentive for being good. And this is like the halfway mark of your sentence? This is probably 20 months into my 50 months. So now I'm like, there's no, there's no incentive for being good. Like they, you go see the case manager and they're like, yeah, you can sweep a tier if you want. Like,

Or you can go work in a chow hall. I'm like, I'm not working in a chow hall. But there's no incentive to do good. The only way the state keeps you in the same do good is to give you a thing called triple R.I. If you get a write up, triple R is almost like guaranteed parole. It's like almost like the Fed's version of good time. Yeah. But one write up, they take your triple R.I. So you can't physically get in no trouble at all. But now I'm like, if I knew I can control who was in the cell me, I did.

Because I was just over it. I was done. So some bull guy came in, dirt ball, and nothing. He walks in like, yeah, you got coffee? I'm like, I ain't got shit, dude. Get on top bunk. He's like, I'm bottom bunk status. I'm like, I don't care. Get on top. I was just dick. So he's like, yeah, I got to use the bathroom. I'm like, you're not using the bathroom until these doors pop. And he's like, no, I'm using the bathroom. I'm like, old head, use the bathroom or I'll fuck you up.

So you start to change like your whole mentality. I started, I started getting mad because there was nothing like I was just there doing nothing. I mean, the system was kind of failing you in a way. There was, there was nothing, there was no incentive for being good. There was no, like, I didn't need any kind of help. I didn't need drug therapy. I didn't do drugs. I didn't need to learn a trade. Like I just didn't want to sit idle. And that's what they, they don't make you, they take a,

They are very good at forming a good person into a bad person. And even the surroundings, like guys are, I'm curious where guys like trying to gravitate towards you to learn like about business or anything like that. So I got, I got a lot of that, um, where guys will like come to me and say like, you know, I'm tired of messing up. What can I do? Or I would explain to them, like they would come to me and, um, they had no idea about money. Everything was instant gratification. So you were allowed to buy tobacco. Yeah.

So I don't eat sweets. I don't eat candy bars. I don't eat honey buns. I don't smoke. So I'm really just sitting there like eating chow hall shit because I'm like, it's horrible, but it's not, I'm not paying. One, I'm not crushing up. I'm not crushing up shit and making food. Like I'm not doing that. No, I'm not making a chi chi. What's a chow hall food like? Shit. What are they serving you in the state prison? You get the same thing every week. It just rotates. Really? So like Sunday morning you get-

uh hard-boiled eggs two hard-boiled eggs two pieces of toast and a milk it was like a brunch type thing that's what they did for breakfast or lunch in the feds so you get you get your your dinner is your lunch so your heavier meal is your lunch so sunday morning you get two hard-boiled eggs two pieces of toast and a milk and an apple then for lunch you would get like either a bologna and cheese sandwich or some kind of like goulash shit no i'm sorry i'm sorry

For lunch, you would get two grilled cheese sandwiches and tomato soup. Oh, wow. They're very fancy. Then for dinner, you'd get some like shit that they just threw onto a tray. Yeah. But I didn't really care. I was like, I'm in prison. I don't expect the food to be good. So I would find either the guys that, there was a lot of guys that were like, oh, I'm going to screw the system. I'm going to walk down into the chow hall and pour an ass rain or freezing cold. I'm going to get my tray and I'm going to throw it in the trash because they owe it to me.

I'm like, yeah, go ahead, old head. Let me get that tray. And they would give it to me. So I would eat four grilled cheeses just because they wanted to prove a point. Yeah, I met guys that would be like that. They're like, I got mine. I'm like, you just walked 45 minutes in the rain because the chow halls and the older jails were not, they weren't on the block. So you'd have to walk

If you're on the fourth tier, you have to walk down four flights of stairs, walk through the yard in the pouring rain, had to get stopped to get patted down because they would try to bring a pudding back to the cell and then they would get mad when they got patted down and took it. But they'd be like, they would set, their goal would be to go get a tray and dump it in the trash and they'd be like, yeah, I got mine. Did you like develop like a prison hustle or anything to help pass the time? Yeah. What did you do? These people are very, very, very poor with money and they're very, very poor with,

discipline. So I would watch everybody and I would see what they would do. And I would see him go to commissary and you would know when their family got like a tax return, or you would know when somebody sent him money because it was $75. You see them come back with a $75 bag. And then the next, the next commissary, you'd see him come back with like two honey buns. And then for three weeks, you wouldn't see him with nothing.

So I'm like, so what is somebody doing with $75 worth of food? And then it's gone within a week. So I'd watch them. So I'm like, all right, I'll go and spend $75 on commissary. I get it, put it in the cell. Somebody will see you walking with your bag. They know they can't take it from you because if you look like me, they're not going to try to fight you. So they might come up to you and be like, yo, wait for them to get that bag. They'll be like, yo, back there, you're not getting my bag. They'll be like, yo, you got a pocket. And they'd walk away because you...

you pretty much like they would check you you would check them and if it wasn't an easy steal they didn't want no in their words they didn't want no smoke they're like white boy i want no smoke like whatever um but they'd be like yo if i give you if you give me two honey buns i'll give you three on the store so i'm like okay so i'll give them two to i'd give them two they give me three so i started running the store you built a store i built a store so i would build a store up

And you were still allowed to do tobacco. So the pouches of tobacco were five bucks. So I would do two for three on tobaccos. But now, like I said, I don't eat that stuff. So it really, once I had so much stuff, I had no interest in it. Like, what am I going to do with 20 honey buns? So I'd be like, all right, you know what? Instead of giving me a two for three on honey bun, give me three bars of Irish spring or give me a mouthwash or give me a toothpaste or give me deodorant. So now my

I'd have like 20 deodorants, 15 toothpaste. I had everything I possibly needed and I didn't use any money. And then the jail would pay you 42 cents a day. And I always worked. I always worked. Like I cleaned the superintendent bubble or the lieutenant's bubble. So I'd get my,

$50 a month. My cable was like 20 bucks and then the rest I would just store it. You have to pay for cable in prison. Yeah, you pay $18 a month. And you have a little TV in your cell? Yeah, the 15 inch TV

You're a 12 inch. You have a 12 inch clear TV. And what can you see? What kind of channels? I would pay that cable in the streets and be happy as hell. Really? FXX, Discovery, CNN. Is it color? Yeah. Wow. We didn't have that in the feds. And CNN's the worst because you have the guys that will watch CNN and they come out and they're like politicians and they would...

They would argue about stuff that they would see on the street and then they have no way to fact check it. So if I'm going to get my almanac and you would see them flipping through an almanac, like their way of asking Siri was I'm going to get my almanac. And then that's how they would like rebuttal on arguing. Are there like politics in these prisons, these state prisons? You have like your, you have your people that get along better with the CEOs and you have your people that get along better with like the administration, but there's really no... No paperwork checking or anything like that? The only paperwork check is like if you're sitting...

If you're sitting at like a chow hall and somebody knows that there's a pedophile sitting with you, they'll be like...

Yo, he's a tree jumper. A tree jumper they called pedophiles in prison. But yo, he's a tree jumper. Why a tree jumper? I have no idea. No idea. They had all these names. So the block on Gradyford is probably the most intimidating place you'll ever be in your life. Yeah. No bullshit. It's 200 yards long. It houses 750 people. That ranged from guys like me to guys that just killed seven people. Like it's the most, it's the only place where you could potentially be killed at any moment because you don't know who's...

Like who's sitting with you? So if somebody came on the block and it looked like a certain way, they'd be like, yo, 71, make sure with the door pops, you have your paperwork. And people would be like, yeah, make sure you have your paperwork, make sure you have your paperwork. Then everybody would start mule kicking the door. Like, yo, you better have your paperwork when the cell pops. So then if they were a pedophile or they weren't a pedophile, now you have 750 people yelling at one cell. So you're like, when this door pops, there's 750 people that are going to kill me.

So they'll wait for a CO to come in and they'll check in. So now you'll see the five people coming down with their camcorder. And now if you're all the way at the end of the tier, they would do nah, nah, nah, nah, hey, hey, goodbye. But you have 700 people doing it the entire tier. When they're walking through. When they're walking down. So it would start and they'd be like, goodbye. They'd be like, see you. But there's 700 people.

That's crazy. Doing it. Did you see anything crazy happen to these sex offenders at all? No, they're so protected. Yeah. They're so protected. Like, one, you're only allowed two phone calls and three phone calls a day, and they can't go back to back. And besides drugs in game one, the only thing you'll get killed for in state prison is the phones. A cell phone or the regular phone? No, the regular block phones. Okay. So they made the block phones $1.99 for a 15-minute phone call.

They used to be like $5 for phone calls, so people didn't use them. But when they made them affordable, everybody wanted to get on the phone. So at first they were unlimited, but dudes were getting like beat up over the phone. So they started putting policies in for the phone. So I remember the one time in Pittsburgh, the phones were in the yard. So if it's pouring rain and you want to call your wife or you want to call like your grandmom's dying, you go outside in the rain and you stand in the rain to talk on the phone. That's the only way you're getting on the phone. So I remember the one time I'm on the phone

And the phones were set up by either – they had, like, these little bullshit gangs. I don't know anything about the feds, but they had, like, the – if you're white with a bald head, you were, like, a skinhead. But they were – whatever. That's a whole other story. But everybody had their own little phone. Like, the Muslim had their phone. The Spanish had their phone. The white dudes never had their phone. Like, white people didn't get phones unless you actually got – so white people didn't get the phone unless you found somebody that worked in a yard. So, like, what I would do is I would run the store. Then I would take –

the store money and the guys that worked in the yard. I'd be like, yo, here's two pouches of tobacco. While you're out cleaning the yard, make sure you hold the phone for me. So then they would call yard. Everybody would run to get to the phone. He'd be standing there holding the phone. I'd walk over and I'd get the phone. And everybody would be like, yo, how'd you get a phone? I paid him to hold the phone.

Did people have like a phone hustle where they would sell their minutes to people, like add someone onto their phone log and then let them call when they ran out of minutes a month? Because we only had like a limit of like 300 minutes per month that you could use. So we didn't have minutes. We had, we had, you had to buy a phone card. But it was an unlimited per month. You can spend like $10. We get you like 10 minutes, $20, get you 20 minutes, or I'm sorry, $10. We get you.

I forgot what it was. $10 will get you X amount of minutes. But if you're people on the street paid for the phone calls themselves, you can call them as much as you want it and they would just get charged a dollar a phone call. So no one ever ran out of minutes or anything? No, everybody ran out of minutes because they would try to call their girl to yell at them that's not answering them. And they would buy a phone card and they'd have to wait from Tuesday because...

Yeah. Yeah.

That was it. That was it. You're just very like nonchalant throughout like this experience. I mean, I didn't really have a choice, dude. Like what are you going to do? You can't go nowhere. That's true. So I went from being able to control my life 100% to here you go. But not everyone could just like adapt like that. You were able to adapt. You don't have a choice. What are you going to do? I guess that's true. You're sitting in a cell and cry? And how's your relationship with like your mother at this point? She wished I would have talked to her more, but I really just didn't. I didn't talk to anybody. I didn't want to burden anybody with me being like,

So if you're on the phone, the one time I was on the phone, and if you ever heard somebody get cracked in the head with a sock and a lock, it's probably the most distinctive sound you'll ever hear in your life. And I'm on the phone, and this dude next to me gets whacked with a sock and a lock because he was on the wrong phone. And then everybody started rumbling. I hung the phone up, and I walked away. I'm like, whatever, dude, do you. But I didn't want to be – if I'm on the phone with my mom, and now this dude just gets cracked, and you start hearing all these people fighting, and I hang up, and they lock us down for five days –

and you can't get back on the phone, now how's your mom going to feel? Yeah. You know what I mean? Scary shit. Like I was talking to them and then all of a sudden I heard a fight and now I don't know what's going on. Yeah. And there's no way for them to like call and check up because they don't tell them any information. Your mom calls a jail and one, your mom's going to call it a jail and whoever finds out is going to be like, your mom called a jail because it happened. Some kid's mom called a jail and they actually came and got him off the block. Really? Yeah. Do you see like a lot of corruption by prison guards at all? Not really. I mean, you see...

My whole thing was I was in there. My charge was receiving a payment and fails to perform. And then I would see a CEO that's getting paid overtime sleeping. And then I would walk by and they'd be like, hey, inmate. And I'm like, dude, you're doing the same shit that I'm charged for. And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, you're sleeping. And they would legit sleep. And the superintendents wouldn't care. The lieutenants wouldn't care. Or you would drive by, you'd walk by a bubble and they'd have their feet up. And they would take the block remote.

And they're watching whatever they want to watch. Yeah. And what are you going to do? What about like contraband? Is there like cell phones, anything like that? I've never seen a drug in real life. So I went to prison. Really? Never in my life. So what kind of drugs do they have in like the prison? So the guys in the PA used to get mad at me because over the course of my 50 months, I watched them lose. They're like, like their privileges. So they would take drugs.

The male. And it was sprayed in male with some... The K2 spray. K2 spray. Yep. They were sprayed in male with K2.

And then they would cut it into little strips. And I remember one time I'm mopping a tear. I'm on a third tier. And his kid, some people called it K2. Some people called it spice. Some people called it deuce. And if you were in Pittsburgh, they called it tookie. Tookie. But that was what deuce or K2 was. So I remember I'm mopping a tear on the third tier. And the CO is like halfway down. And his kid comes out. And he's butt ass naked. And he starts going like this. So I'm thinking he's praying because that's how the Muslims pray. Okay.

But then he crosses his arms and he falls straight back onto the tier. And he starts going into a seizure. So the CO is like, what's up with him? I'm like, I don't fucking know. So now I walk over. He said, dude's about to roll off the tier. So I'm like grabbing this dude. The CO comes over. They call. Two other COs come on. Like, get in the fucking block. I'm like, dude, I was just mopping the tier. Like, I don't even know what the hell's going on. So then that was like 2017. And then 2019 came.

A dude stomps out his CO with his Timberlands on and kills him in the day room. I wasn't there for that. It was a different facility. Over the K2? Over, I don't know what it was about. But he was probably on K2. I'm blending stories here. Okay. So you're allowed to have Timberlands. Yeah. So we get locked down for like three weeks. Now they send, they put a thing on the TV. If you have Timberlands, you can either surrender them and pay to mail them home to your family or you can give them to us and we'll trash them.

So now all the guys started losing their shit. They're freaking out. They're taking our Tims. How are we going to go to work? How are we going to do this? I'm like, I had Tims go to work at this point. I worked on a farm, driving the backhoe and doing all like you're at a lower security. I'm at a lower security where you should have been from the get go. Yeah. But it took me 30 months to get there. So we would go down and be like, yo, are you going to give up your Tims? I'm like, yeah. Well, how are you going to go to work? I'm like, can this Brown state boost they give me? They're like, we don't think this is bullshit. And I'm like, you guys need to realize that.

The Timberlands are a privilege. You stomped out a CO and killed him with Timberlands on. So they're taking him like you did. You did it to yourself. And you're like, yeah, but what if I stopped him out my bare feet? I'm like, they're not going to take your bare feet. You have a privilege. They took your privilege. That's it. So we're locked down for three weeks for that. Then two weeks were good. We get locked down again for like a month. Now they don't know. They said four COs or five COs in the mailroom opened something up and they all got like real sick.

So now they're like, all right, no more mail. So we're locked down for like five weeks. They're going around sanitizing everything. They don't know what the hell's going on. They got certain team coming from like every jail coming in, doing shakedowns. Then they finally let us out and we get a letter saying that now all of our mail has to go to a central hub in Florida, Florida, photocopy your mail, email that to the jail. The jail will print it and it'll give it to you.

So now you can't get real pictures of your family anymore. Everything's a black photocopy. All your mail goes to Florida, gets photocopied and sent back. Yeah. So now they're all on the block. Like, this is bullshit. We're going to do a hunger strike. And I'm like, guys, you were smuggling drugs and through the mail and you got caught.

Yeah. That's why they took your mail. No, they're out of pocket. No, you got a pocket. Yeah. We had a couple of guys on from Pennsylvania, Jesse Crossan and Colin Ray. And they both told similar stories about how the mail got taken away in the feds. K2 was getting big.

Um, cause people are spraying it. So they banned like your mail couldn't smell and they photocopied everything because people were getting it on. They'd make thousands of dollars off of one piece of paper through the mail. It's insane. Yeah. So they were doing K2 and they were doing, um, tells us other stuff. Um, I forget what it was, but it was like, literally it'd be this, the smallest box and the smallest, the smallest, like,

They were calling them strips, I think. Yep. So they were taking like a strip that looked like a Listerine strip and it looked like a Listerine strip and they're making like thousands of dollars off it. What was like the currency in the jail cell? Was it like stamps or was it just cigarettes? At first it was tobacco. Then they took tobacco out.

And then it was tobacco. They took tobacco out. Then they went to e-cigarettes. So it was kind of still e-cigarettes. They had e-cigarettes in the prison. So when it went smoke-free, they went to e-cigarettes. Wow. They went to pens. They were selling pens? Yeah. How much was a pen selling for? I want to say $5. That's it? Yeah, $5. That seems pretty cheap for a pen. And then you get like, I guess you smoke it like...

I don't know, 50 puffs and I was dead. Yeah. Wow. That's a, I guess that's a good markup. I think it's a hundred percent tobacco free now. Now, how old are you when you actually get out of prison? What year is it? I'm 25 and it's 2019. So you're 25 when you got out? I'm sorry, I'm 30. I'm 30. I'm sorry, I'm 30. I went into 25. Timeline didn't make sense. I'm 30, I'm 30. So you're 30 years old. What was it like to be like reintegrated with your family? So when I went to the minimum camp, I was more,

When I went to the minimum camp, I was there for 20 months and it was more normal. Like I went to work every day. I ran a backhoe, I ran a loader. I worked outside, outside the jail. I was on CWP. So I went to like churches and picked up trash and stuff. So me, I worked outside the jail every day. So I got sold cars. I would snowplow the parking lots. So I was never really my last 20 months. I wasn't inside the facility. I took care of the superintendent's property. So when I left, I walked out the same door that I walked out every day.

So it wasn't really like a, it wasn't really like a shock. Like I was behind a wall for 50 months. Yeah. But, um, as soon as I came out, it was right back to work. Like didn't miss a beat. What did you get back into? Uh, so when I was up there, when I was in the minimum security place, they were demoing, like it's, I essentially helped build the jail that I was housed in. So they were closing down Graterford and they were opening an SCI Phoenix. So it was on the same grounds. So, uh,

I would load out the dumpsters of scrap. So the guy that would come to do the scrap would do the dumpsters. I would say, hey, listen, I'm going to need a dumpster on Tuesday, I'm going to need a dumpster on Wednesday, and I'm going to need a dumpster on Thursday. So it was always just me and this guy. I would load a dumpster, he would take it. He'd bring a new dumpster, I'd be like, hey, I want it over here. So this guy, for the longest time, thought that I was actual staff because he dealt with me. I wore gray pants and a white shirt and a flat-brimmed hat.

So he thought I was staff. So the one day they were doing something and he was like, yeah, we can't, we can't do it on a Saturday because there's nobody here to, uh, to run the machine. And he's like, well, what about Ryan? He's like, Ryan's an inmate. And the guy's like, he's an inmate. He's like, yeah, he's an inmate. So when I saw the guy again, he was like, Hey, listen, um, this is where we, this is where I work. I told my boss about you. When you get out, uh, he has a job for you right away. No questions asked. So I'm like, okay. So the day he,

The day I got out, I went in, checked with parole, went and got my driver's license. And then I called that place and was like, hey, listen, I'm ready to go. When can I come? He's like, come tomorrow for an interview. I went there for the interview. And then the following day, I think like,

The fourth day of being home, I was back to work in 12 hours. That's great. Yeah. I went right back. Like didn't miss a beat. Now, because of like your personality and like your outlook on life and like your mindset, did you have a lot of clashes with probation? Cause like, I feel like you're very, you're intelligent, like with the system and how stupid it kind of runs. So did you clash with like your probation officer or anything like that? No, my probation officers are real. As long, the thing that gets you, the thing that gets you in trouble is, uh,

Like they even used to do it there. Like, hey, CO, can I go to the third tier? If you live on second tier, can I go to the third tier? He'd be like, well, I don't know. Well, I don't know. It won't hurt me. Or yeah, you can as long as you don't get caught. I'm not trying to not get caught. I'm just trying to do what you asked me to do. So if you would tell me I have to pay this on this day, I paid on that day. If you tell me I have to send this, I do that. There's no...

There's no like, I'm not trying to get in no trouble. I'm not trying to be smarter than anybody else. Whatever you need me to do, just let me know what you want me to do and I'll do it. Was there like a restitution order that you have to pay monthly? Yes, I pay that every month. And how much is the monthly payment? A hundred bucks. That's it? And what was it like the total amount owed?

Uh, 630,000. And you're responsible for everything or does your dad pay a portion of that? He has his own. He has his own restitution. How, what was it like getting out of prison and talking to him and like rebuilding your relationship with him? Um, so he got out a year after I did. And then, uh, I still didn't talk to him like here and there, not no bad blood thing. I just, I don't, like I said, I don't want to talk about it. It's the past. So I don't want to

I don't really care to hear about it. Like, you're the first person I ever talked to about it because I didn't... I did it. It happened. I'm not trying to be like, oh, I'm a victim. They did this to me. It's not like I went there. I did it. I saw some stuff I shouldn't have saw. I saw some stuff that I can't believe they get away with it. And I saw...

in our justice system, but I'm not going to go start a movement to be like, you know, this is bullshit, but there's a lot of stuff that goes on there that people have no idea about. Like myself, I didn't know about. What would you say is like the biggest thing you were shocked by your whole experience? The amount of money they waste. Like they waste ridiculous amounts of money and nobody cares because if the budget is...

60 million dollars they'll spend 90 million dollars and it's not like a hold on wait why are you spending 90 million dollars it's all right next year we're going to give you 100 then like all right we're going to spend 120 there's no there's no cap there's no oversight there's no nobody cares if they spend 90 and they're supposed to spend 70 well we'll just give you another 50 there's no the amount of stuff they waste the amount of staff that they waste you hear them on the radio say like

Hey, we need one CO to work. It was 6 to 2, 2 to 10, and then 10 to 6. So at like 8 o'clock in the morning, they'd be like, hey, we need a CO to work 2 to 10. You and I would be on the same block. Nah, hold on, we'll wait. Then at 11 o'clock, still need five COs to work 2 to 10. You and I would be like, yo, watch this. Now at 12 o'clock, we need two COs to work 2 to 10, time and a half. Like, hold on, wait.

Now at 1.30, we need two COs to work double time. Yeah, all right. I'll take it. So you could literally sit there and be like, all right, if I offer now, it's just going to be time and a half. If I wait a little longer, if they desperately need somebody, they're going to give me double time. So you can just make your own. The COs would be like, hey, listen, you're going to see me a lot. I'm working 15 doubles this month because I'm trying to buy a new jet ski. That's crazy. So you would see COs that would just work.

and work and work and work, and they worked 15 doubles or 10 doubles, or they would work as much as they possibly could because there was nobody there to be like, hold on a minute, dude, you have...

50 hours overtime. How is this possible? And whoever signed off on it was like, well, we need 120 COs. If we only have 110 COs, we have to either lock down the jail and then that costs money because now you have to send out trays, blah, blah, blah. This is my thing and they don't think that way. But there were just COs who were just like, all right, yeah, I'll take it. Now, was it hard for you to interact with your kids'

like friends, parents at all, like navigating that as that dad that came out of prison? No, because like I said, I don't talk to people. So they don't know you went to prison or they know? They know, but if they know, they won't say anything. Like for baseball and stuff, people know, but, uh,

I'll be right back to doing the same thing. I rake the fields. I make sure the kids have what they need. If a kid doesn't have something, I'll buy it for him. You're also an intimidating person to look at. What? I don't know. You're just like, I wouldn't be one to ask you about your experience. If my kid knew that you went to prison, I wouldn't go up to you and say, hey, how was prison? I feel like people are more comfortable asking me because I look like a kid and it's like they're talking to their kid. Mm-hmm.

But I don't know. I just feel like in your scenario, not everyone's coming up to you to ask you about that. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I guess so. I'm not a bad dude. Do you talk about it with your immediate family, girlfriend, wife, or anything like that? Yeah. But not... So like I said, maybe five people know...

Besides you now and these guys know there's like a curiosity for people that have never been through it before So I think there's a curiosity about it But I also think that when you tell people some of the stuff that you saw they'd like no way in hell Yeah, like if you tell somebody on a Friday night, I had a 12-inch TV and

my tablet that i could write letters to that are almost text listening to my biggie smalls that just doesn't curse because it's walmart music why i'm drinking a soda that i bought on a yard and a tub of ice cream because i had an ice cream ticket chilling in my cell by myself because then i got i was in a coat i was in a cell by myself for almost my last 30 months yeah but if you tell somebody yeah i'm like what are you doing right now i'm sitting on my cell watching a

the born adjacent born movie eating ice cream on my tablet they'd be like dude you're in prison you're like yeah no shit i did it's crazy i remember seeing like guys getting ben and jerry's every day because you could buy ben and jerry's yeah ice cream um just all the commas you could get all this stuff it's literally i mean the mp3 players the 20 walmart ones they're selling for 120 bucks and music like two dollars each they were selling 15 inch clear tvs

For $300. Wow. And a little tombstone radio that you get at like five below was like 20 bucks. I mean, they say it's not for profit, but it is like they're making... It's 100% for profit. Yeah, they make... Even the private facilities are worse because they could give you less for what they're charging for. But like the federal and the state prisons, like they're making a ton of money off of it. That's what keeps it flowing. Yeah, so when they switched over to... They switched the food provider over and it went from like shit to shit. Like the food went from...

Edible to almost edible. Do you end up going back into business at all, starting your own company? Do you want to? Nope. Do you feel like you have like PTSD from it or? No, I just, I have no interest in, I have no interest in going through that again. So like I did as much as I could possibly do as a person and a business owner with like my community, with kids, with sports, with, I did, when I first came home, I was actually like,

You know what? I'm never doing anything for anybody again. If I see somebody broke down on the side of the road, fuck you. Call AAA. Like I was so, I wouldn't say I was hostile, but I was so sour. You're better. Yeah. I was so sour that what I did leading up to that and then what they made me look like. And then what I went through when I was there said, I was like, I'm not going to be a good human no more. Like it's not, like I said, there was no incentive to be good. Now, obviously I never, ever want to go back there again.

But there was no incentive to be like, I've never not held a door for somebody. I never not started the message with good morning to somebody. I never, like, I never not helped somebody. You know what I mean? Yeah. But then I was like, no, I don't want to help nobody do shit. Like, I'm going to go to work and I'm going to go to my house and leave me alone. Have you seen yourself becoming a person you didn't want to be though? And you've kind of like scaled back? When I was there? Absolutely. And what about like now? Do you feel like you've gotten back to who you were before prison? Yeah. So I'm back to...

uh i coach my kids baseball teams um i run the league the baseball league down where we're at um i'm still involved in the community so i still do i do everything i said i wasn't gonna do i'm back to doing because i'm not i can't not do it how long did it take you to find yourself again i guess you could say uh work-wise right like i said right away went right back to work but then um

Like stepping back out into community, like putting my name back out there without. So I never did anything like this. I don't like.

If there's a Facebook page marketplace or a common group and somebody is like looking for a recommendation for something, I won't write your name because I don't want some asshole being like, oh yeah, that was him. I'm like, I don't feel like hearing this noise. So I would like send somebody a message. Like if you were looking for something that I knew my buddy had it, I'll still network other people's businesses, but I would do it privately because I don't want to hear backlash from anybody being like, oh, he's recommending a tree company, but he did. I didn't want my name to,

uh, tarnishing, like anybody else is saying like, Oh, well, if he's recommending him, he can't be a good person. So why did you finally feel comfortable enough to come and talk about it? Like what propelled you to come and even do this? Um, I think people now are so people now are so like disconnected with reality and especially with COVID, like people see stuff, people see stuff and hear stuff and have no idea, but it's true. So people will be like,

Oh, well, I have to wear a mask or I'm going to die. No, you don't. Or like if I go to prison, I'm always going to be a piece of shit. No, you're not. Like no matter what, no matter what you, no matter what happens to you in life, you control your life. So if you're in the worst possible situation in the world and you take that worst possible situation and I'm not going to say you don't capitalize off it, but if you don't learn from it, you're just ignorant to life. So like the stuff that you went through, I didn't go through the stuff I went through. You didn't go through.

But if somebody listens to what you say and it helps them get through something, if somebody listens to what I say and it helps them get through something, people just need to see that it's okay to have a mistake. It's okay to mess up. Do you think it's like motivating for someone to hear these kinds of stories? I would hope so. Yeah, I would hope so. I hope somebody that either has like a drug problem. My main thing is I hate drugs. I hate drug addicts. I hate drugs. I don't feel bad for them, but I will help a drug addict as much as that doesn't make sense.

It's like if somebody came to me and they were like, hey, I just got out of rehab or hey, I just got out of prison and I don't know what to do. I don't know how to get a job. What do you want me to do? As long as you are clean and you're willing to work, I will find somebody that will give you a job. Yeah, I mean, as long as you want to work and you want to do better, people will help you do better. Yeah. If you choose to be a shitty person or you choose to

continuously get high and blame everybody else, you're never going to succeed. If you had like the opportunity to send a letter, say to your old 20 year old self, what would you write? What would you say to that person? Slow down, slow down. You don't have to do everything. You don't have to do everything a hundred miles an hour and you don't have to do everything to,

look like you got it under, you don't have to do everything to look like you got it under control. It's okay to make a mistake. You're literally like the older version of me because that's like my mentality. Like everything was like rush, rush, rush, super ambitious. And then like I covered things up because I didn't want like that failure identity with me. I was so like, I had a successful business and I wanted to keep scaling it. And then it just like,

it catches up to you so fast when you're not taking things slow. And now I feel like my mindset's so much more different now. I'm more cautious and I'm looking at things and analyzing. And it's kind of like, it's interesting to see like those crazy things that brought us, you know, to where we are now. But Ryan, thank you for coming on the show, man. It's great talking to you. I'm happy. We're the first people you're sharing your story to. And I think the audience is really going to like it because like your situation, my situation, two different things, but it could happen to anyone. Mm-hmm.

Like you just, you really never know. It could be bad timing. It could be, you know, you're hanging out with the wrong crowd, anything. It can happen. Absolutely. So thank you, man. Appreciate it. Thank you.