Inside the Devastating Lifestyle of a Long-Term Dope Addict | Chris Tuder
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21 plus and present in Illinois. Must be first online real money wager. $5 deposit required. Bonus issued is non-withdrawable bonus pass that expires seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See full terms at fanduel.com slash sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Chris, welcome to Locked In, man. Thank you, sir. Yeah. Yeah, pleasure having you here. Thanks for watching the show, supporting it, and asking to be a guest on, man. It's great to have you. All right, thank you. Now, you came from New York City? Yeah, New York City. Is that where you live now? I live in Central Florida.

Oh, okay. Yeah, so we flew up and me and my partner, she has friends here. She's from Jersey originally, like near Trenton. Yeah. And we're making it like a mini trip slash CNN bit type thing. She didn't want to come and watch? No, she's like doing stuff with my kids in the city, doing kid stuff. Oh, your kids came too? Yeah, yeah, brought the whole family. Ah, how old are your kids? I got a six month old and a four year old. Ah, that's so nice, man. What are you guys doing in the city?

Tourist stuff. I've been in New York and probably 15 years. So like I'm looking at it a whole different lens now I literally sit on a bench and just people watch for a few hours in that kind of you know Yeah, just not as much in the cold not much Yeah, I can't sit on a bench for a while and in the cold and then in Florida It's a lot warmer right or you guys still have a cold front We had that like arctic blast you guys had down here It got like low 40s at night, but it's already back up to high 60 70. So okay lucky you guys. Yeah

Yeah, well, it's one of those things that you don't appreciate the warm unless you come back to the cold every now and then. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, that is true. Are you originally from New York? So I'm originally from Ohio. Okay. Yeah. Where in Ohio? So there's a working class suburb just east of Columbus, the capital. So I'm from out there. But, you know, as I got older, I lived all over Franklin County, Columbus, Ohio. So if I had to say something was my hometown, it'd be Columbus. Okay. Who'd you grow up with?

So I had a mom and dad in the family, right? I don't ever remember my parents being together, but they were together for like a short time when I was a baby. But I always remember having two different homes or whatever, but mainly my mother, right? And then like I would see my...

father on visitation like most kids in the 90s I was like a product of divorce you know what I mean see dad on Wednesdays and every other weekend did you have any siblings I have a half sister so my dad had a daughter with another woman besides my mom after before it's like an older sister oh okay yeah she's still in Columbus yeah how old are you when you realize your parents were separated I in my mind they were always separated you know what I mean like I was so young when that they separated I don't have any recollection of

- How did you feel seeing other kids your age having parents that were together? - So look, I've thought about this over the years 'cause me and my dad had it. We had a real weird relationship. There was times when it estranged, times it wasn't.

But I know a lot of guys that grew up without dads, right? And my dad wasn't like the picture perfect father by any means, but I never doubted that my dad like didn't love me. You know what I mean? So like I could understand like how some people like not having a father around can be really traumatizing to their life. But, you know, it was just normal to me. You know, my dad lived over here. My mom lived over here. What did your parents do for work? So my mom was a waitress. Yeah, my mom was a waitress. Food service. She was a lunch lady for a while. You know what I mean? My dad worked for the city.

Yeah. Was she your lunch lady? No, she wasn't my lunch lady. Yeah, no. That was after I moved on. We got older, so. What did your dad do for the city? He was a fireman. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, interesting. Did you look up to him for that? As I got older, yeah.

Yeah. Did you want to become a firefighter? You know, I've thought about it, but like I've done so much damage to my past that like my driving record, even if I wanted to, no fire department's going to hire me to drive the fire truck or city vehicle around. You know what I mean? It's just part of it. Do you have a license now? Yeah, I got a license. Okay. So at least you got a license. Yeah, I got a license. How would people describe you as a kid?

What kind of person were you? - Man, so a lot of people, they come and they talk about their childhood and then the progressive story begins, but mine actually starts more when I was younger, right? 'Cause I was always in trouble starting right out. - How old were you the first time you got into trouble?

Probably I started getting suspended around fifth grade, you know, a lot of acting out and like I'm from that generation in the 90s where they're labeling kids, you know, ADHD and, you know, doping everybody up on like Ritalin and Adderall and stuff. And like, I don't know, I guess you could say I was like seeking attention. Things weren't too good at home. So maybe I was just acting out.

Stuff like that. Do you think the home life had the biggest effect on you? Almost definitely. Yeah. Most kids, you know. Did your parents have any substance abuse issues? Yeah. So you could swing a dead cat by the tail and hit a drug addict or alcoholic somewhere in my family. You know what I mean? Yeah.

So it's pretty common. And like on my mom's side, like I know, you know, her uncle Danny or my uncle Danny, her brother, you know, died of an overdose. Her dad was a heavy drinker. My mom's a heavy drinker. Then on my dad's side, my dad's side was really weird, right? Not really weird, but like they could still function.

I'm not saying every member of my dad's side of the family, but they were really heavy drinkers, but they could still hold jobs, hold licenses and cars. You know what I mean? Still function in society without the alcohol affecting them too much. It's just when they would go home, they would drink a lot. You know what I mean? Do you think it got passed down to you genetically? Yeah. Yeah, I believe in it being genetically. But that's a whole other topic we could dive into and spend hours on. You know what I mean? Yeah. Do you want to give us the brief summary of why you think that? I don't know. I'm not a scientist.

Yeah. Have you done research on it? Like after, you know, being in recovery and stuff out of curiosity for yourself? I went really far down the wormhole on this one day, right? And it was like they could...

So like back when and I don't know if it's true, but this is just what I've read and I read a little bit on it. It's like back in the day when we were like hunter gatherers, like the hunters, like their brains rewired to have like heightened dopamine levels. Because like when they're out like hunting the saber tooth tiger and it's like chasing them, they got to like fight it. They got to be like firing on all cylinders. Right. And then like as humans progressed and then introduced substances like it had something to do with.

with that. But like I said, I'm going to, that's a whole tangent. I'm not going to go off on. How old are you when you realized there was substance abuse issues in your family? I've always known, you know, it was pretty common. And like, so where I grew up, right. And I always tell people like this, like I wasn't born in like

South Central LA or South Chicago or East Detroit or anything crazy. It's a pretty like blue collar working class area. But I just remember by the time I was able to start like recognizing things that were going on around me, right? Like everyone on my little block here, like they all struggled with something and a lot of the underlying reasons.

Cause of it was alcohol. Right. And like a lot of it was like domestic violence. Right. And I'm not laughing at like domestic violence, but like, you know, like I had a neighbor to the right and like he was always beating up on his wife and like the guy across the street and his girlfriend, they were always beating up on each other because they were always drunk.

You know what I mean? So like I really started noticing at a young age, like what alcohol did to families. You know what I mean? It's always chaotic. Always the police moms. The moms always have a black eye. The dads are always getting hauled off the trail. You know what I mean? The dad's not working because like he's sitting around drinking all the time. He's not mowing the grass and it's just like a.

you know, a cycle of alcoholism. So fifth grade about you start getting into trouble, suspended. Yeah. Getting into like fights too and stuff as acting out. Yeah, definitely. So like this is something I, so it really began and I'm sure this is a lot of people's story, but like the people I started hanging out with,

You know what I mean? And as I've gotten more into recovery, I've learned the term trauma bonding. Right. So like if you get a bunch of kids that are all from like the same situation where it's really dysfunctional at home, they tend to stick together. Right. Because they could like identify and vibe with each other on that certain level. And what happens when you get a bunch of kids to early teenagers who are all trauma bonding because of chaotic at home, they go like one or two ways. Right. They can get like involved in sports and go in a positive way. Or at least in my case, it go in the positive.

in the negative way, right? And I was, you know, I'm like, I'm a short dude and I was never like really cool or anything. So like, I got like picked on a lot, you know what I mean? And I was like really struggled to like find my identity because I didn't like hang out. I didn't fit in with these people or these people or these people or these people. When I started finding kids,

that were from a similar situation as I was. And then we clicked, and then we would go out and get in trouble. And then especially when the weed and the alcohol started coming in, I was like, oh, I found my people. Actually, I felt like at home.

with some people somewhere doing something, you know what I mean? Did you watch that episode with Nadine? I did that Wolf of Wall Street's ex-wife. She really talks about trauma bonding. I haven't. I didn't. I saw the thumbnail, but I didn't listen to it. Okay. Yeah. She, cause that's what she does now. She's a therapist or psychologist or something in that. And her specialty is trauma bonds. So it's a really interesting episode. It was really insightful for people, you know, that are coming out of addiction or

crime or prison or even relationships. It was very relatable. Yeah, cool. Were you into sports at all as a kid? So I like I played like little league baseball and stuff. But where I really started, I got into BMX. Right. So like the the little area town, they built like a skate park probably when I was 12. So like we would all flock to the skate park.

you know, ride around on bikes and stuff. But a lot of times like we would go to the skate park and yeah, like we'd pretend like we were riding, but we're really like under the gazebo, like just getting in trouble. Yeah. That was like me. Cause I never knew how to skate, but I would wear the skater clothes cause I wanted to fit in. I wanted to be liked and I would carry around my skateboard, go to zoomies at the mall and all that kind of stuff and pack sun. It was like an accessory almost. Yeah, exactly. You had to, and then you get the heelies, uh,

Did you guys have Heelys? The Heelys. I remember the Heelys. I never had a Fairbairn. I remember what you're talking about. Yeah, I couldn't. I would always bust my ass, but they were fun. That's hilarious. Yeah, Heelys were good, man. I wonder if they make those anymore. I don't know. I wonder if those are still even on the market. When was the first time you got into, like, say, serious trouble? Maybe with the law or...

Right. Anything like that. So, like, before we start going down this rabbit hole, like, I was telling you that I actually organized this interview for another person and I came on, right? I know you've had, like, some heavy hitters sitting in this chair. And, like, by no means am I, like, a...

a leader or a prison warrior or anything crazy. I can only tell you my story, you know? But, like, I started getting in small trouble about 12, right? And just, like, real basic stuff, like throwing snowballs at cars, you know, and getting arrested for that. And then, like, I got in a few fights in, like, high school, you know? And, like, this was long. It's crazy to think that this was a long time ago, but we're talking about, like, the early 2000s. So things weren't as, like...

Things were a little different. Things would get swept under the rug a little bit more than they would like today, you know, but I had finally gotten on probation for something. And then I got in a fight after school when I was 13. And that was like my first time going to the juvenile detention center down there in Franklin County. How bad was the fight?

So not even really that bad. So really, really bad misfortune. So like I told you, I used to get picked on. Right. So when I finally like started hanging out with like, you know, my people or whatever, like I decided that I was going to stop being bullied.

Right. And I remember this kid was like messing with me, messing with me real bad in like front of people. And I was like, I've never been in a fight before. And I'm like, you know what? I'm going to challenge this guy to a fight. Right. So I was like, all right. So we're going to fight after school in these apartment complexes, like on the opposite side of the school property or whatever. And I thought it might just be like him and me and a few other people. But by the time that like.

The end of school came like half the school knew. So like I'm walking out and like this half the not half, but like a large group of people are now coming to watch this fight. And so we ended up getting the fight. And literally the moment we start fighting, a cop car pulls up.

And, like, I was on top of him. So then I was the one charged with assault. There was no witnesses that could have said that, you know, you were the one being picked on or bullied? No, I don't think that would have played out anyway. Wow. It's kind of crazy you actually got charged, too. I remember there would be fights in school and no one necessarily got charged. So at this point, like, that police department of that little area, like, had known me and, like, the small amounts of trouble that I'd been getting into up to that point. And, like, I think...

They were just ready to do something more serious with me or whatever. And then, you know, I went to I went to juvie at 13 and then from about 13 to 18, I had actually spent more time inside of like a juvenile detention placement or corrections than I actually did outside like regular school. How did your parents respond to you acting out and getting into trouble as a kid?

Um, so my mom, like my mom worked a lot, man. So like, uh, you know, she was a waitress and, um, like sometimes she wouldn't get back to like eight or nine o'clock at night. So I'd be out roaming and like, how do I say this? Like she would be upset, but she like really wouldn't do anything about it. It's like yell at me and stuff. And my dad would try to be like the authoritarian, but like, I didn't see him enough to really, uh,

It have any effect on me, you know what I mean? And then when I really started getting trouble, I started seeing my dad less and less and less because, you know, oh, my mom will let me do whatever I want and my dad will discipline me. So like, who am I obviously going to, you know, whose house am I going to live at the most when I spend time in my mom's house? Right. She lets me do whatever I want or not do whatever I want, but she's not around enough for me to.

for her to know what I'm doing. - Did you have a close relationship with your dad even though you spent most of your time with your mom and you thought your mom was less strict than him? - On into my 20s, like when I became adult, me and my dad got closer.

Do you wish he was more involved during your childhood? So listen, he genuinely did try. He really did. But like I just wasn't receptive to it at that point. You know what I mean? Now during those years of going in and out of juvenile detention, are you using substances at all? At that point, I'm just smoking weed and like drinking and stuff. So...

Doing what kids do. Doing what kids do. Did you end up graduating high school? So I graduated, but the only reason I graduated, so like at least in the state of Ohio, like when you're in a juvenile facility, any schoolwork you do in that facility, the credits count towards your actual high school that you're supposed to be attending. At least it did then. I don't know now. Now at that point, did you have any like career aspirations, what you wanted to be when you grew up in high school? Oh, no, not at all.

So like half of me, I always wanted to like join the army. You know what I mean? So that was like a far-fetched thing I wanted to do. Why the army? I don't know. Why not, right? My grandpa was a veteran and stuff. And then, yeah, so I went to the juvenile detention center at 13. And you know what's crazy now? Like I have a job and sometimes I deal with families and stuff and like tourists because I live in Florida, right? And like I'll see these 13-year-old kids and

And like you'll see just like how young and immature they are. You know what I mean? You can tell they come from a good family because they're there with their family. But I look at these 13 year old kids. I'm like, man, they were like locking me up when I was that old. You know, like your mental capacity is not even there at that point.

You know, and like I thought I was running with like a tough crowd or whatever then. But by the time I went to the juvenile detention center down there in Franklin County, I'd like a real rude awakening, like really quick. You know what I mean? And like I said, the place where I'm from in Franklin, that working class, working class area. I mean, there's some riffraff or whatever, but like by the time I hit the Franklin County juvenile detention center, like it's.

You really see what goes on in like the inner city. Right. So like there's a lot of these kids like, you know, real people that are involved in like street gangs and stuff. And like I knew that existed. I've met a few dudes like in passing or whatever, but actually like seeing it in its politics, full effect, like right there in front of you.

It was pretty intense. And I remember it was probably like my second or third day in. And I started learning lessons like really quick, like what to do and what not to do. And the first lesson I learned is like it used to be cold. So like dudes would like tuck their arms.

arms inside of their you know their thing and like their arms are pretty much be trapped and like there was like a few rows of seats and like with a TV up high and like everyone stare there and look at the TV and then there was like a bench where like people play cards and I'm sitting at the bench and like I'm also watching the TV and there's like this kid and he's got his like arms tucked in his sleeve so he can't really defend himself and he like was having a problems with some other dude and like this dude just walked up these steps and just had target practice on his face right and

And I remember like, you know, that sound like a meat smack and meat, especially a jaw like that specific slap crack type sound. And like he broke his jaw and he just sat there just hammering away on this dude's face for a few minutes. Right. And I remember like his his eye didn't like come out of his socket, but like it was like bulging farther out than like it was naturally supposed to. And then like I watched it happen and like the staff broke it up. And, you know, I'm only 13 years old. Right. And I realized that like this is like.

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Thank you.

ends 4 27 25 at 11 59 p.m eastern time how did you feel about those kids that were in gangs and stuff did you think it was cool or you're like i'm staying out of trouble after this one um like it it was interesting you know what i mean and like you know as the years progressed i spent more and more time these places i got to know some of them right and one thing i really started to realize is a lot of them were just

just normal kids, normal people, you know what I mean? They wanted things, they wanted love. They just happened to grow up in a different area than I did and had a different perspective on the world or whatever. And then you really start learning a lot of these different neighborhoods and cliques, they have politics that span back from their uncles and their dads and their grandpas, you know what I mean?

So like, you know, this kid might not like this kid because this kid's dad used to have problems with this dude's dad back in the 90s and 80s. And it's just like a nonstop progression or whatever. Is that because it's like small town vibes or is there just only one juvenile detention facility for that region? There's only, yeah, for Franklin County. So Columbus is, I always say it's a big town, a small city, you know.

It's not New York by any means, but, I mean, it's a city. Were there a lot of violent offenders there? Yeah. Yeah, most definitely. Did that kind of put your life in perspective too, that you weren't getting into that kind of serious trouble, but you were still there? Well, I mean, and then the story progresses, right? So, like, my first go, like, you know, I spent, like, two months down there at the Juvenile Detention Center. And then I get out and, like—

Like, you know, I think I'm Mr. Cool Tough Guy because I just spent this time in juvenile detention. And then, like, every time I would get in trouble, like, it would be for a more worse thing. And then I would end up spending more time and more time in, like, in a facility. You know what I mean? Why didn't your parents bail you out right away? Or was it mandated to do two months? You can't. Juveniles don't have bail. Okay. So you're stuck there until, like, what's the capacity? Yeah.

Like the time limit. So at least, at least where I'm from, they, uh, they got seven to 10 days until they have to like take you to court until they're either going to release you or hold you for trial or a continuance. So that first fight, did you end up getting charged officially? Yeah. Yeah. So, and they sentenced you to two months. Yeah. They had a program called the cat program. It's like your first time going and like, you know, you take these like classes or whatever in the detention center and, uh,

I started learning really hard lessons. So I watched a dude get stolen with his arms. Lesson number one, you always keep your arms outside of your things so you can at least protect yourself. And then I got assaulted probably two or three weeks after that. My second lesson I learned is you don't cut people in line. Because as a juvenile, you go to school and then there's a cafeteria that you go and you eat. And I learned really quick not to...

cut people in line and I thought it was cute. And I remember I cut this dude, I still remember his name too. His name was Cody and he was probably 17 and I was 13. And there's a big difference between a 13 year old and a 17 year old. Right. And I cut in front of them and like, he said something, I just kind of laughed about it. And then the next thing, you know, I'm coming to it like in the nurse's office or the medical department. Cause he can't, he stole me from behind. Right. And I just, everything went black. Yeah.

So that was my second lesson. You don't cut people in line. You don't keep your arms inside your shirt. When you got out of juvenile detention that first time, did you go back to your same high school that you were in? Yes. So you didn't get expelled? No, I didn't get expelled. So the fight was – so that ended the school year and then like summer and then the next school year. Was it weird going back to school after getting out of juvenile detention like where people –

maybe bullying you or um you know spreading rumors or anything because you were that kid that did time no i thought i thought it was like cool i thought i was like a cool kid because especially like all the people i identified and hung out with were uh you know troublemakers or whatever so like i kind of wore it like a badge of honor at first and um you know that didn't last too long i'd say about maybe a month later um you know i was right back in i was um

driving around a car at that then now I was 14 and um you know me and this buddy we we we took out his mom's car in the middle of the night and um you know I wrecked it going like 65 miles an hour and then um like you know he's like oh man you wrecked my mom's car and he went he ended up going back home and I just told him to tell his parents that like you know I took it whatever so what happened when once he told them the cop showed up right away they called the cops yeah

Oh, they didn't want to resolve it, like, between your families or anything? No. Did that end the friendship with you and your friend? Yeah, things were weird for a while after that. So the cops showed up at your house the next morning? Yeah, the next morning. Well, like, the next evening. So where did... Did you leave the car somewhere when you wrecked it? So, like, me and him took the car, and, like, mind you, we're, like, 14 years old, and, like, he was talking to this girl or whatever, and, like, we went over to the girl's house. He's like, oh, I want some time alone. Why don't you, like, you know, take the car and go do something? And I knew, like, this Korean...

like liquor store corner store that would like sell us cigarettes, even though we were underage. So like I took the car hit to the liquor store. I bought cigarettes and like I'm coming down like this hill and it's like a big five way intersection and it's like a really big turn. But, you know, I don't I've never really driven before, so I didn't really break. So I went to like take this big curve at like 50 miles an hour and I smacked into a giant light pole. The light pole fell down. The car was totaled out.

And then, like, I just got out and ran from it. Oh, you guys left it there. Yeah, we left it there. Oh, shit. How did your parents react to that arrest? Yeah, they weren't happy. They weren't happy. Why do you think they didn't take any, like, precautions or anything to maybe move you to a different school, different environment, make sure you're hanging out with different people after that first time? Well, I mean, they didn't have the means to, like, really necessarily move me.

And then, I mean, you could say they tried, but at the end of the day, if someone wants to, like, you know, if I want to do something, I'm going to do it. You know what I mean? So you get arrested and put back to juvenile detention. Yeah, back in juvenile detention. And, you know, and by this time...

Um, like I said, I, I'm a little, I'm a littler guy. Right. And then like the bullying started again. Right. And like, uh, you know, guys were trying to, you know, call me out in front of people and try to belittle me or whatever. And then, um, you know, I finally decided I'm not going to take it. And like, when I say all this, like, I'm not an MMA fire fighter. I'm not like this big street fighter or anything, but, um,

You know I eventually learned if I don't step up for myself and like nip this in the bud now It's just gonna keep continuing and continuing and it might sound real cowardly right but uh especially in like a juvenile tension where their staff everywhere like You got to learn the art of just stealing on people especially if they're bigger than you you know and um so like any and then I realized like any fight is gonna be broken up within 20 to 30 seconds so like it's better just

It's better just to get your licks in and make it look like you're, you know, you're not weak and just get it over with. And then at least you have the respect. And then at least the people will stop bullying you and messing with you. You know what I mean? How long were you in there for that stint? So that time was another few months, maybe a month and a half. And then, you know, I get back out and then I keep violating probation because I can't stop smoking weed, you know, and then, yeah.

I got put back in juvie again. Then that was my first time I went to a – do you know the term placement? Yeah.

In the juvenile detention system or yeah in the juvenile detention system so like at least in Ohio I can't speak on other states you have like a juvenile detention, right? That's where you are for a small sentence or if you're awaiting trial I mean, you know that you know what I mean or until your sentence and in the state of Ohio like our Juvenile correction system is called Dys Department of Youth Services. I know like California's like why a Florida's like the useful offenders but and Ohio is called the Department of Youth Services, right? So there's a step

before Ohio department of youth services is called a placement. Like sometimes it's a lockdown facility, but you're technically not doing like a sentence in DYS or whatever. So like, it's like usually they'll try sending you there once or twice before they actually send you to the, to the DYS. So like I went through my first placement and, um, so I was a juvie for quite a few months on that. And then I went and, um, I had a, I had to do six months there. Right. And, um,

It was just, it was pretty bad. So that's, that's my first time. Like, Hey, you have to do six months when you're a teenager, six months seems like forever. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, uh, so yeah, they had me there. They took me to this place and I just wasn't getting on at all. And by this, by this time, like I'm full fledged rebellious. Like I can't,

I just... I can't sit still. I'm disrespecting staff. I just don't want to be there. Don't want to do the schoolwork. And, like, it was a lockdown place. Like, you couldn't get out of the unit. And then, like, where you did outdoor rec, there was, like, a fenced-in little area, high fences. And they wouldn't give me my shoes for, like, a month and a half. Like, for whatever reason. And I remember the first time they gave me back my shoes, we were going to the outside rec. And then, like, between the rec... So, it's like...

it's off Allen Creek drive and it's like near the adult community correctional facility. There's like a, the, the sheriff, our office has like a, a satellite department there. And then there's the place I was at. And like before, as you're leaving the building to go to the outdoor kind of fenced in area, there's like a gap where it's just open parking lot. And then like the sheriff's office, but technically you could run like right to the little highway right there. So yeah,

We and I took advantage of this lady, too. It was it wasn't even like a staff member there. It was like a counselor who was taking us outside, you know, as like art or something stupid like that. And the moment we got in between like that little open area is like, you know, it wasn't preplanned or anything. I just looked to the right and I saw the open highway and I just took off running.

So like I ended up kind of, I wouldn't call it escaping because I didn't like tunnel through a tunnel or hop any, you know what I mean? Get in a laundry basket and get pushed out. But like I got right the fuck out of there. And, you know, I run across this highway and like, you know, the sheriff's office there, the adult community correctional facilities there. And I ended up running across the street. I run into these woods. I'm running through this graveyard. And as I'm running through this graveyard, I accidentally like kick a headstone. And like it rips my big toenail off like my big toe. Oh, man.

But long story short, I ended up walking like six and a half miles all the way back to like the area I was from with this broken toenail. And then, you know, they put, you know, warrants out for my arrest. And this is like my first time, you know, and I probably I wasn't even 16 yet. And this was like my first time experiencing knowing what life was like out there on your own, because I didn't go home and go back to my parents house. I couldn't because that's where they were. They're looking for me.

So like, you know, I tried roaming around and like I would stay with like friends or whatever, but they couldn't like keep their mouth closed. I mean, rightfully so. They're like teenagers, but they would go to school and be like, oh, guess who's like staying at my house or whatever. And that would get up to the police and the police would show up there. So I ended up, you know, ending up on the side of town and I was like,

literally living out on the street as like a 15 year old, but I wasn't like on hard drugs yet. Like I was smoking weed or whatever. And like, that's when I really started seeing like the ugly side of the world. Right. And like, you know, I like, I met this prostitute who was like a woman to me then, like she seemed like a really old woman, but she was probably younger than I am today. And like, I remember like, she like took me in because like I was younger or whatever. And like, she would smoke weed with me and stuff. And she would like,

take me to people's houses so I could like take showers and sleep. And, you know, this went on like at 15 years old. I was just literally pretty much sleeping outside. It's kind of roaming around, figuring it out. Why was no one batting an eye that there's like a, you know, a teenager walking around, you know? So this sounds real messed up, but in some parts of Columbus, it's not uncommon, you know?

You know, you go in an area where there's a lot of drug activity, you see all types of crazy shit. Were your parents actively looking for you that you knew of? I'm sure they were. Yeah. And it was funny. I was walking down the street and I was looking real grody at that point. Like I just had like a backpack and like, you know, I would try to take clothes from like thrift stores or whatever. And then my old neighbor. So like I was telling you about that street where like everyone, you know, was getting drunk and just being all crazy and stuff. We had a neighbor on the left, Miss Heidi Carter.

And she just happened to be driving down the street and saw me one day. And she's like, you really need to go home and see your mom. I went home and saw my mom. And she's like, yeah, just sleep here. You know, take a shower. We'll get all this figured out. And my mom called the cops on me later that night. So like I was in bed and they came and got me.

How long on the run was that total? A few weeks. A few weeks. Maybe two or three weeks. Pretty good run for, you know, a juvenile for your age. How did you react when you found out your mom was the one that called the cops? Oh, I was super upset. Right. But, you know, now as an adult, I understand, like, you know, I understand. Right. Because like at the end of the day, I had to face it. It was never going away. And at the end of the day, she could have gotten in trouble for having me there. But, you know, at the time I'm super resentful. Right. You know, and, um,

How much more time did you get in juvenile detention for that? So I went to juvenile detention, spent a few more months, and then went to a different, like, placement program in a different place. Did they all think you were, like, the cool guy in there for tactically escaping? It was funny because, like...

Before I left the juvenile detention center and then went to the placement program, I remember telling a few guys and they're like, oh, I'm running from this place. I'm not staying. And even though it was an impulsive move to like jet right when I did, it was like still in my subconscious that I was going to do it. And like I walked back in and they already knew what happened. Then I ended up going to a different placement and it was real low key. There's actually nothing crazy to report. You know, you just went to school. When did you get done with the juvenile detention system?

A few times after that, man. So I get out of there and I get back out and then, you know, I get back in trouble again. And I used to tag, right? Like do graffiti. And like we had this like little group or whatever. And like we would tag all over town. And then we got caught for tagging. And then like someone told her somehow, then they connected everyone's name to the name you would tag on. So I had like 26 friends.

criminal damaging, violating probation again, and got caught with weed at a different high school. So then I went back to juvie, and then I went to a different placement again this time. But this time, this is my longest stretch. So like I had done like six months before,

Four months, one month, two months. But this time, like I ended up doing about 10 months. Right. And they went to another placement. And if anyone's from Ohio and like went through the juvenile justice system in like the early 2000s, there's this place called Cornell of Braxis. And the Braxis like Cornell of Braxis is like a juvenile behavioral conglomerate. It's like a big corporation that owns like different facilities and like P.A.,

Indiana, Ohio or Ohio or whatever. And this place, this place, it was a bit different than like what I was used to. Like the other places were almost like kindergarten compared to this place. Like not as much as like violence on like kid on kid, but it was like real intense. And it actually came out quite a few years later. But there was like a lot of staff abuses that went on in this place.

And like, so they have lockdown units, but technically they don't have lockdown rooms. Right. So like if you would while out, what they would do is they would like restrain the shit out of you. They'd twist you up like a pretzel until you literally had just no more fight left in you. And then they would send you back in your room. But they were like,

they were doing it to a crazy level like if you disrespected like the staff they would just twist you up and slam you down on the floor and lay on top of you for 20 minutes they actually got a lot of trouble for this um as the years went on i remember there was this kid he had like uh he's born with like a birth defect right and he had he had like a smaller arms it's really fucked up man because kids used to call him like t-rex and shit but um

He actually I liked him and his name was Randy. And they, you know, they ended up restraining him and like breaking one of his like, you know, disformed arms or whatever. Right. And like his family was threatening to like, you know, take him to court and they released him immediately to like cover it up. Oh, like they cut a sentence down. Yeah, there's cousins down. Let him. So like once you get sentenced to the placement.

They decide your out time. So it's six to ten months. You know what I mean? So if you behave and you jump through all their hoops and you're going good at school, they could decide if you get out in six months to ten months. Are they doing counseling at all or therapy or anything like that? Yeah, they do counseling and therapy and stuff. Did that help you at all? No, not at all. I wasn't receptive to any of it. Why do you think that was? It just wasn't my time to be receptive to it. I didn't care.

Were your parents supportive while you were in there, like visiting you, keeping a relationship? Not so much. They maybe came two or three times the entire like nine, ten months I was up there. Why do you think they didn't, you know, come off and be supportive? They were over me, right? I was like, I was caught in a lot of chaos in their house and bringing, you know, I was really mean to my mom. I can never like, you know, like physically abuse my mom or anything crazy like that. But me and her were just getting like these vicious, vicious arguments. You know what I mean?

Does that put your perspective or change your perspective now as a dad raising your kids? What do you mean? Like, do you think now, now that you're a parent, if your kids would act that way, if you would be there for them or not, or how would you navigate it? I mean, within reason, I would definitely be there for them. You know what I mean? So how old are you when you were completely done with the juvenile justice system? Eighteen.

And where were you at in life? Did you have a job? Were you planning to go to college? So...

After the 10 months, I ended up getting in trouble one more time. Right. And then I ended up doing a year for that. And then by the time I get out. So I had I had a lot of people help me along the way, like a lot of the educators. You know what I mean? Because like at that point. So I'd failed like ninth grade twice because of absences and like just not showing up to school and stuff. A lot of these educators like smudged records. You know what I mean? So I'd at least get out with a high school diploma.

Right. And then like I remember there was this principal named Mr. Tesso and he come in like we need some credits for like gym or whatever. And he'd be like, oh, do you play basketball during your time or whatever? Be like, yeah. He's like, well, it seems like a gym credit to me. Right. And then they hooked me up with like an online school. So like even after I was done taking like the school you're required to attend.

I would do online school like in the afternoon so I could accelerate it. So somehow, someway, I actually, I left it all with a high school diploma. Okay. And did you want to go to college? Did you go to college? No. So I, so I get out freshly 18 and then, remember, I was one of the join the army, right? So I, I, I,

I put out my record because you have to like show the record or whatever. And I end up going to like an active Army recruiter. And I'm like, you know, I want to join the Army. This is in 2007. So this is like during Bush had like his big troop surge thing. It was just crazy times in 87. And like I remember I went into the active Army recruiter and he looked at my record. He's like, man, I can't even begin to like try to waver all this. But he like gave me a nudge. He gave me like a wink wink. He's like, you should go talk to the Army National Guard recruiter.

I'm like, all right, cool. So I went over to the army national guard recruiter and he was like a real scumbag, but he was, uh, he was able to wave. He was able to pretty much hide most of my record. Once again, it's 2007 things aren't like as caught up as they are now. And then he's like, well, if you want to go active army, he's like, join the national guard. You could get back in and within six months, um, you could then go to the active army. I'm like, all right, cool, cool. And then, um,

Yeah. So then I ended up actually going to basic, basic training. It was actually called OSIT. I'm surprised none of that was under seal, uh, your juvenile record. No, you still, you have to, you have to show it. Okay. And you couldn't get any type of, uh, like accelerated rehabilitation where they knock off some charges or anything? No, not at that point. And I mean, we left, we left a lot out.

that, you know, I was actually charged with as a juvenile. Some serious crimes or? Yeah, yeah, there's some, there's serious. So my last, the thing that I got done for the last time, it was a firearm possession and like tampering with evidence. Then they tried, they tried to charge us with the discharge of a firearm into like a habitation because like we were shooting out like streetlights and stop signs. And I guess like one went to a house allegedly and

So like and then even though I wasn't charged with it, it was still like shown that not even though I wasn't convicted of it, it was still shown that I was charged for it. You know what I mean? So like when I printed out my record and take it to the recruiter, they still see all of that. You know what I mean? And it's.

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Sounds even worse on paper. And it sounds even worse, yeah. Now, did you have any, like, really malicious or violent intent to have a gun, or are you guys just kids being kids? So, okay, so I get out of that one placement, and I come back, and then I end up staying with my dad.

And then long story short, I ended up running away for the summer. Right. So like, I'm kind of just like living back out on my own as like a teenager, like staying with friends or whatever. And then this is when I kind of got into like the, the, the cannabis a little bit. Like I was just selling like small sacks of weed or whatever, make an extra hundred dollars a week. And, um, I'm not really like too big of a thief or like a burglar, but me and, uh, me and a good friend of mine, um,

We went over to this dude's house and like he was like this wannabe coke dealer. Like he was full of shit. Like he sold a little bit of coke or whatever. And he was – but he acted a lot tougher than he really was. And like we were sitting in his room and like he had this safe and he was like showing us all these firearms. He was like, oh, like, you know, I do this, that, and third. And like me and my buddy look at each other like, oh, yeah, we're coming back for this guy, dude. And sure enough, we went back and we ended up climbing his back window and we took his safe off.

And we had the firearms out of it, and then we were trying to sell the firearms for cash, obviously. And then we had another friend who had just got in trouble for a robbery. He had beaten up this dude and took his book bag or whatever, and they made a deal with him. Like, oh, if you could help us out with X amount of felonies, we could –

work with you right so he actually set it up he told us like listen um you know I want to take a look at some of his guns I might buy him and then as we go pick him up and then like it was a it was a setup off from the beginning like soon as we picked him up they were like following us and

And then we're like driving down the street and then we get lit up by, you know, the cherries and berries and then like some other cars, undercover cars like cut us off. And anyone from Columbus knows like they've been using that police helicopter for as long as I could remember. Like it is always overhead. And sometimes it shows up for just the smallest shit. Right. Like and you'll be sitting in your backyard and they'll be like illuminating, like going up and down the backyards. Like anyone from Franklin County knows you always hear that thing every single day. But it like lit us up.

And then they, like, brought us out of the car. And then because, like, I was with adults since I was a juvenile, I took the charges for the firearms. And said it was yours because you were going to get less time. Because I didn't get less time, yeah. Okay. So, yeah, I'm surprised now that the military accepted you, like, to go to basic. So that's why he was like, wink, wink, go talk to the National Guard recruiter. And I think what the National Guard recruiter did is, like, I'm from Franklin County, but he's like, you know, here, we'll get you a Licking County address. So if they pull their file, it'll look like it's coming from a different county. Mm-hmm.

And he finagled it, but he actually ended up finagling me. Right. Because during that time they were giving out like twenty thousand, twenty five thousand dollar sign up bonuses. And when I ended up going to Osa, I went to Fort Knox. I was the only I was the only person there that didn't get a sign on bonus.

So, like, he benefited too, right? Wait, you think he pocketed the sign-on bonus? I don't think he, like, pocketed it, but I'm sure he gets incentives for spending as less money as possible to get people in. You know what I mean? I'm not saying he, like, pocketed $20,000, but I'm sure he got some kind of incentive to do it. How did your parents feel about you going to the military? So, this time, my mom... So, during... As I got in trouble again, my mom dipped. I didn't see her for, like, seven years after that, right? And...

You know, and then like even after I got out, like I wasn't back at my dad's house. So my dad didn't even really know. I just kind of like showed up at his house one day to grab some clothes. I'm like, oh, by the way, I'm going to the army or whatever. He's like, oh, OK. And then, you know, I went. Do you think you wanted to join the army to kind of like force yourself to escape the path you were on? Exactly. I just want to get the fuck out of Columbus, Ohio. You know what I mean?

Did you know that you wouldn't be able to smoke weed or do any type of drugs or anything joining? Yeah. Yeah. Was that hard to let go? No, I didn't let it go. That's why it didn't last too long. You know what I mean? So I ended up, I go to Fort Knox and like,

The behavior is still in there, right? So at least back then, like you have basic training in AIT or if you have like a certain MOS, you do something called OSA. It's one stop unit training. So you do the basic and the job training all in the same place, same instructors, everything, you know what I mean?

So, you know, I was in the Army National Guard. So that means like I did basic. There's like four months with basic in the in the job training. And then like you get out and you do one week in a month, two weeks out of the year. OK. Right. So and actually, I really I really excelled at it. But by the time I and then you got to realize I'm going back to right where I was trying to escape.

And by the time I get back there, like, you know, I'd saved up a decent amount of money for an 18 year old, you know, doing all that. And like I was completely influenced right away with the same people, same stuff. So, I mean, within a year I was discharged, not dishonorable. It's like a general under honorable.

You know what I mean? Like literally my, so they call it drills. Like you have to show up on a weekend. It's called, you got to go to drill on like my, my third drill. I didn't show up because like I was in the county, you know what I mean? And they were almost ready to slip that under the rug, but my dumb ass couldn't stop smoking weed. You know what I mean? So like I show back up, they're like, Oh, maybe we can do something. Then I, then I dropped 30 and there's like, you know, there's nothing we can do, man. Like you fucked up. Were you dabbling in any other drugs at the time or just weed? Uh,

So, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I started started dabbling and like a lot of a lot of my friends, they started dabbling in hard drugs in the teens. But I was I was never at home. So like when people are sparing like ecstasy and and coke and shit like I'm not there. So like I was like late to the hard drug party, I guess you call it like that. But, you know, I started, you know, dabbling around with actually actually like in like I sound really bad because like, you know, you know,

You'll get some veterans on here and like what when I when I when I talk about being a National Guard like You know, I'm really ashamed of it, you know me cuz I fucked it up, you know So I don't want to take anything away from it from anyone that like served honorably was able to get their shit together And not get in trouble like I'm not sitting here bragging about I don't think it's cool It was actually it really tore me up for years cuz I was like I finally made it out I'm finally able to do what I want to do and I fucked it up. I

So that hang real heavy on that. So like I'm not bragging about this, but this is just like my story. Right. So do you ever picture what life would have been like had you stuck with the military and stayed with it and stayed sober and followed the rules? I mean, yeah, I don't know.

Don't waste much time. Don't waste, yeah. Could have, would have, should have. It's in the past. In the past, yeah. So what happens after you get discharged? So at this time, you got to realize from 13 to about 19 and a half, I've been in like a real...

like controlled environment like discipline and like then I get out and um like I have nothing to do no one telling me what to do you know what I mean so I immediately just start falling back on old behaviors with the old people and then um this is kind of when I started getting so all that money I'd save from the military like um you know I started investing it in like um

Just drugs, drugs or so. And like I said, I'm not going to sit here and be like, you know, I'm like some ecstasy kingpin or some shit or whatever. Right. But, you know, that's when I really started getting into like the cannabis and this is a, or weed, you know what I mean? And this is 2009, 2010, I guess. And this is like, I guess the golden age before everyone was, you know, doing shit with cannabis. Yeah. That's when I was a freshman in high school, 2009 to 2010. Yeah.

And I would just go find odd jobs and then I would just sell weed. And like I'm not a big trafficker kingpin or whatever, but I mean, like, you know, at 20 years old, if you're making an extra four or five hundred dollars a week, you know, just selling a few ounces. I mean, that that adds up, you know what I mean? On top of the job. Why didn't you try to move to a different city or a different state at that point? I did. Eventually I was just stuck, stuck, wanted to be around my friends that weren't doing me no good. And yeah.

Did anyone else try to join the military in your friend group or anything to escape that life? Yeah, I had a few guys. And were they successful? Yeah, super successful. Were you envious of them at all? No, no, no. I was happy for them. So what happens next?

So I just, you know, a few years go by and then, you know, we start doing really good at the weed thing. Right. And then I started getting into the like actual cultivation of it. And like these were the days when you could still get four thousand forty eight hundred dollars out of a pound. Right. So, you know, we started setting up little tiny grow houses. You know what I mean? I remember I was I wasn't doing too well. And then my buddy, he was in real. He's like, listen.

I'm going to put you in a house. All you have to do is sit there, water some plants and make it look like someone lives there. You know what I mean? And I'll teach you everything, you know. So I kind of got taken under the wing by somebody. And he really introduced me into like the cultivating of cannabis. And like we weren't doing massive operations at first. But, you know, like if you're swinging for one thousand and you're getting a pound to a pound and a half and you're getting, you know, four thousand to forty eight hundred dollars out of the pound every three to four months, like it's not like.

You're rich, but you could definitely like build something on it. You're paying your bills, you're living. Paying our bills, paying our living. And then that's when we started like...

You know, we just started getting as time went on. We just started getting more sophisticated with it. So like, you know, I would always partner with people be like in like, you know, you have a house, you have a basement. How about I help you pay your electric bill? We set up some lights and then we'll split this at the end of that. And if I like I have you and another guy and another guy all doing it, plus have my house where I'm completely, you know, if I'm running six to eight lights there, then like as as it all comes around and the money comes in and I mean, it starts becoming more

Real profitable, right? And this is right about the time I realized, like, I think I have a problem with substances, right?

Because like I started drinking real heavy and like I would be at the bars and clubs and like when everyone else would go out and have a great time and you know, I would always have to be the person that drank the most and it was always super chaotic. You know what I mean? Like I was always the one that like had to be carried out of the bar carried out of the house party. I was always the one that was trying to get into a fight and most of the times I would get beat up, right? You know what I mean? I was always the one getting beat up. I was always the one wrecking cars. I was always the one getting arrested and

And I could just never understand why. And then, you know, I found myself like...

You know, if you drink or however you feel like shit in the morning, like what's the best way that you can make yourself feel better again? Drink more. You just drink more. Why did you turn to drinking? Like why do chef from just weed to alcohol? I think of a lot of it as a cultural thing, right? Because like, oh, you're 21. You're supposed to like party, man. You know what I mean? And that was like the age of like, I don't know, like Wiz Khalifa dropped like that cushion orange juice and everyone was just like party and smoke weed, party and smoke weed. Like all the cool kids are doing it, right? It's almost feel like it's pushed down culturally on you.

You know what I mean? Now, you were mentioning ecstasy you were using. Were there any other drugs too or is it just ecstasy, weed, and liquor? So, like, I went through like a little Coke bender.

Right. And I got realized like, oh, I have a problem with this. Right. So I kind of stopped using the hard, the real hard drugs didn't start. So like I was I was doing OK. I make a little bit of money. Right. Like I would work. I'd like some of this weed stuff going on. And like, you know, I wasn't rich by any means, but by like 23 or 24, like I had my own house.

You know, it was a nice house, was a big house, but it was my house. It's pretty good for a 23, 24 year old. Like I didn't have like a nice car, but I had a car. I had two cars. You know, I tried starting a small, I had a small landscaping business. And, you know, like I was always trying to find a way to, you know, make more money, make more money. But then I started picking up like expensive habits. Right. So like on my birthday one year, I was like, um,

You know, I think we're going to skydive. It's like a group. So we went skydiving as a group and I liked it so much. I was like, oh, I'm going to go take a course to, you know, be able to jump on my own. I took this thing called a static line course where when you jump, it pulls out your parachute. But anyway, on like my third jump, we jump. It's really windy that day. And like I'm coming down and I'm like way away from the drop zone or whatever. And it's really windy. And I panic and I go to land and I ended up like snapping my leg in half.

Right. Like and like, you know, you ever seen the mold like skateboarding videos or like dudes and their legs will look like in a position they're not supposed to be. I was my leg like it was like flapping around and like different directions. And like I heard the bone break and like I didn't walk for a while, but I went to hospital, had multiple surgeries. And that's when they.

prescribed the opiates. So like that, the addict, like the, the substance abuse, the addict was always in there. Like it just came out with like smoking every day, you know what I mean? And drinking way too heavy. But by the time like the opiates had hit me, like I'd found it, that thing I'd like always been looking for. What was that feeling for you when you had opiates in your body that first time? Man, I remember like, cause I'd like had like

small surgeries where they prescribe you like a few Vicodins or whatever. But as, and that was back, like when the pill epidemic was really taken off and I would take them and be like, I don't really see the hype about all this. You know what I mean? But I remember at the hospital after the leg broke, they like hooked up the IV and they put Dilaudid in there. And I literally like felt it.

go up my arm to my back and then it was just like instant. I heard someone describe it one day. It's like if you're out in the cold and you've always been out in the cold and you finally find like that warm blanket to like wrap around yourself to comfort you,

I was like, that's what it is right there. So when you leave the hospital, does everything start to unravel? So I gave it a good run at first, right? And a lot of people I had known, so what are we in, like 2011, 2012-ish? And a lot of people I grew up with, I've seen them go down the pain pill route. But I never understood. I'm like, man, how are you guys destroying your life like this?

And like, you know, I started out like I just started taking too many than the doctor was prescribing me. Right. And then like, you know, I would run out before the month was over and then I would have to buy them off the street. And then before, you know, I was running out.

in a week and have to buy them off the street. And I remember the first time and like at this point, I'd like a small landscaping company where we're doing pretty well on the cannabis. And like, it's not affecting me because like I have I'm being prescribed them. But I remember the first day I was like, you know, this get a lot of control. I've been on these for a while. And I'm like,

I'm just not going to take them. Right. And I remember I went to sleep that night and I woke up in the middle of night and like, I felt like I had the flu, right? Like I'm kicking, sneezing. Like I was in proper withdrawal, but I didn't understand like quite what was happening.

yet. And it was because I didn't have, didn't have the drugs. And then I went and found some Oxy and then like the withdrawals went right away. And then like, then began the, the endless cycle of just taking Oxy to not be sick. Because if I was definitely sick, I couldn't take care of any of my affairs. So I really just had to keep doing it so I could get everything done. You know what I mean? I didn't really see the adverse effects at first because like I had a little bit of money.

You know what I mean? So like I still had stuff, like I still had the house, still the car, still had ways to make money. But I was just spending a lot of money on the pills. But like it wasn't affecting me quite yet. I hadn't thrown everything out.

Was your cannabis business a legitimate business in the sense where like you guys were treating it like a real business? Because it sounds like you invested in a landscaping company from that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it wasn't like you were just doing like a small time thing, not saying you were doing a big time thing. Like a medium, a good medium thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, no, we were just real ragtag. It was still in Ohio, too. So like legalization hadn't came through. And that's actually a really good point. It leads me to the next topic.

to the next saga of it, right? So, um...

the pill i was getting really bad on the pills and we decided we wanted to go legit right so michigan is just north of us particularly detroit right a lot of people don't know michigan was like the shining house on the hill for cannabis at least for the midwest back then right and they had a lot of they had really lax laws even compared to like california and colorado back then so uh at least back then was medicinal medicinal in uh michigan you could grow 12 plants in any in any phase

You know what I mean? If you had your thing and the racket was like, all right, so I could grow my 12 plants. We get you up to the doctor. We get your, you know, your script wrote for you and we could sign over your rights and I become your caretaker. Right. So now I could grow my 12 plants and your 12 plants. And you can do that up to, I believe it was like five patients. So technically, legally, you grow 72 plants in any phase. And how much revenue does one plant bring in?

That depends. Depends on a lot. You know what I mean? How big do you get it? How big? So we always ran soil. Like a lot of people are on the aeroponics and hydroponics. We always just had big soil pots. And in the Midwest, you get like these real deep cut basements. I'm sure you have them like here in Connecticut. But like all the older house have basements with just concrete that run off to a drain.

So, I mean, it depends how long you veg it out. So like how long you keep it in the cycle before you kick it over to flower, you know. When did you start using your proceeds from that and, you know, your business to fund your opiate addiction? I mean, the whole the whole time. But at that point, I was making I was making enough money to cover it and like cover my drug addiction and keep myself afloat.

you know, the place to live in a car and stuff. Did any of your partners realize what was going on? Yeah, they started to, right. I kept it real cool for a while. And, uh, how my, my old best friend slash business partner found out is we went out to, uh, Vegas for my birthday. Uh,

And I had like hidden a bunch of pills like in my stuff, you know, to take through TSA. I put like two in a pocket here, one in a sock, one in a, you know what I mean? Like spread it out all over all my stuff. And we went out to Vegas for my birthday and I was like four or five days. And then by day three, I had used all the pills I took in, right? And I was just like completely like in horrible withdrawal. And they're like, what the fuck's wrong with you, bro? You know what I mean? And that's when my partner found out.

And, um, and then we get back and then, uh, I was like, all right, I'm going to make a big life change. I was like, we'll go to Detroit. Right. Well, partner's like, yeah, let's go to Detroit. And my idea was like, we could try to set this up and start getting legitimate with it. I could get away from, you know, the drugs and we could start all over. But if you want to get clean off opiates, Detroit is not like the best place to go get, let's get off dope. You know what I mean? And that like started the whole new saga. And we were, we were up in Detroit for a while.

And I'm like, we were, we were doing, we did really well. We ran one big round, uh,

And I just, I met these guys. I really like Detroit. Detroit has its own personality, like no other city that I could explain, right? And this was in 2013. So that's like when the city filed for bankruptcy. And like Kwame Kulpatrick, he was like a mayor that got indicted for like embezzling a bunch of funds. He was sent to prison. A lot of the streetlights weren't working. So Detroit was like the Wild West for the cannabis industry. You know what I mean? Because people were just, there's no enforcement there.

So, like, everyone's up there just blowing houses and blowing warehouses out. And so I ended up getting in with these dudes, these guys. And by this time, so let me backtrack. Am I messing all this up? Am I rambling? You're doing good, man. I'm doing okay? Yeah. We're in 2013.

We're in 2013. And we had started, I had a buddy and we were going down to South Florida, like during the pill mill things or whatever. And we would go down there and I'd never like went to the doctor myself, but like I sponsored a person who was in with the doctor. So like I covered the rental car and all the money. And I remember we went all the way down there.

And, um, there was like, we went to the, to the doctor's office and it was like boarded up and they had like yellow stickers on it. The doctor had been rated. So we drove all the way down there and we drive all the way back to Ohio, extremely dope sick. And that was my first time trying heroin.

You know what I mean? And heroin, heroin is like in like I was like, I'm not going to use needles. You know what I mean? I'm not a junkie. They're like, oh, you could sniff it just like how you sniff your your pills. You know what I mean? And it instantly made sense because you could do three hundred dollars worth of Oxy or you could do twenty dollars worth of dope heroin. Right. And I'm like, oh, well, this makes financial sense. Like, yeah, this heroin thing sounds like a good idea. Right.

And then I'd found a guy, Detroit, at least in our region, Detroit was always known for like, cause like the Canadian border is right there. And a lot of stuff comes across from Canada and like Detroit was always known for having like really good dope. You know what I mean? And then, yeah, we, we had a really big round and,

Around being like we had a – you know what I mean? We grew a good crop. And then that was like the biggest amount of money I'd ever had at like one singular time off a round. And then within probably two months, I just spent it all. On dope? On dope. That's crazy that if the doctor wasn't closed that day, you might have never had a dope addiction. I'm sure it would have happened eventually because like that was –

That was like a trend because I don't know. How old are you? 29. So we're not we're not too far apart. But like there was like the heyday in South Florida, like everyone was driving down there. And like it's funny, like you go used to go up like 75 going up in the Georgia. And they especially my region, they would call us pillbillies, like hillbillies that would come to Florida to come do pills. And they had a big sign on 75 as you're getting near the Georgia border that said pillbillies go home.

So like it was on a downward, it was on a downward track anyway. It was all eventually going to get shut down regardless. Yeah. I'd heard from stories about sponsors from guests, exactly what you were just explaining, how you would sponsor someone to go down there and they would get their pills and whatnot. And it was just a revolving door. So now you're on heroin in 2013. How old are you at that time? 24, 25, I guess. And you don't have any relationship with your family.

No, not really. I would tap in with my dad every now and then, but he had no idea how bad it was. I'd only see him a few times a year, and I was real good at cleaning up. If you go get a haircut, brush your teeth, trim your beard, put on some nice clothes, and act like you got it halfway together, I was pretty good at acting like everything was all right. What happens to your businesses? So I decide, oh, I...

fucked everything up. So like when you're, when you're really high on, when you're on those hard drugs, like you can't, I can't manage stuff. So like, I'm not answering phone calls. I can't pay insurances on cars. You know, I lost my license. You know what I mean? Like I'm driving around trying to drive, you know, a work truck, new landscape. I don't have a license. I'm getting pulled over. You know what I mean? Like the people I would have like come work for me, like I was getting them high and they were just like not showing up.

And then, you know, I wasn't paying electric bills. I was just real sloppy, you know. And did your business partner kick you out of the weed business at this point? No. So we're in Detroit. Right. And I eventually I was like, you know, I need some help. Right. So that was the first time I went to treatment and over a place called Battle Creek, Michigan. It's over kind of near Chicago, Michigan.

And that was my first time I went to treatment. And like during this time, I noticed there was like a lot of law enforcement, like heat coming down on us. Because like so we would grow it in Michigan, like technically kind of legally in a gray area. But we would just take it right back to Ohio and sell it back on the black market. You know what I mean? So it might have been kind of being grown in like a legal aspect. But by the time we were trying to turn it back into money.

Like we were just, we were doing a state where it wasn't legal. And plus we were crossing into a different state. Right. And like, you know, I'll save the long story, but a lot of, a lot of people I was working with in Columbus, they, they started getting in a lot of trouble. Right. And like they would get caught and then like, there would be rumors of like, oh, you know, people are telling on you and stuff. And I, you know, I didn't pay attention. I'm like, I'm not doing any, like, I'm not out here like killing people, not here driving like Mercedes. Like I'm just a guy in a work truck, you know, just growing a cell and a little bit of pot. Right.

But I didn't realize like especially like when you start across the line of like, you know, doing the Florida trips, you know what I mean? Like you start across the line. And when I noticed like something wasn't right is I got pulled over and I didn't have a driver's license. Right. And then like cops in Columbus, if you don't have a driver's license, a lot of time they're just like they'll cut you a ticket and say, don't drive your car. Make sure you show up to a court date.

And I'm sitting there waiting on this process and there's like a cop car behind me. I'm watching it in my rear view. And then I see like a red pickup truck pull up behind the cop car. I'm like, you know, what the fuck is this shit? And like this dude hops out of the car and he's like short and he has like gauges in his ear and he has like glasses. And he looks like a...

like a rocker, like a dude, you see it like a sublime show or something. Right. Yeah. Like, what is this? And then he like pulls and he has like the little sheriff badge, like on a thing. And he was like an undercover cop. I'm like, why isn't another cover cop showing up to a traffic stop?

And like he now becomes part of it and i'm just like this is something's off And they find like a small amount of money like twenty eight hundred dollars or something You know what? I mean like nothing too crazy and they actually confiscate it from me I'm, like where like, you know, i'm a landscaper. I can prove where this come from and um, you know, it's just it's just real weird and like it wasn't the drugs like I started noticing like, uh Just patterns of stuff. You know what? I mean like, uh

People sitting out front of the house and like they're really good. Right. Because he they were they were trying they were trying to see if I was slipping. So I end up having to call him and call him calm. And they were recently going to release the money back to me. This twenty hundred dollars little money or whatever. And he's like, oh, we'll come to you. I was like, oh, I'll just come to the police department. He's like, no, we'll come to you. So I had him like meet me.

street streets over and they like pull up in like a gold Cadillac, same dude with the gauges and another dude with like big earrings. Like these guys look like, you know, I would sell. We do these, these any, and then they're driving around in gold Cadillac. So I really started noticing stuff like that. We, we had another, we had this idiot that, uh,

you know, it was like part of this little thing we were doing and, uh, he got in a lot of trouble. And then like, he got all high on Xanax and told his little partner one day, like, you know, I told on them. I, I, I broke down everything I know about them. And like his little friend called me and was like telling me like, you know, listen, uh,

He everything that he knows they now know but we didn't let him know everything so it wasn't too crazy So we started having we started having a lot more attention like that You know what? I mean started getting pulled over a lot more often than you should have So that was another reason I went to detroit And then um, yeah, you know then lost all my money and then I went to rehab And um, you know when I was in rehab I still wasn't ready. I just wanted to get off the hard drugs

You know, I just wanted to quit. I was done being dope sick and like giving out all my money. Right. Like I didn't want to stop smoking weed and get drunk. That's why I like to I like to go to the bar and I like to sit around smoke weed. And then I was in the cannabis industry. So it's like I can't, you know, not get away from it. I just wasn't ready yet.

And then, you know, it was good. Like I realized like I was going to have to make a change. And I was like, you know, I think I could do this. And then I made like the golden rule. And when you go to rehab, I made the first mistake is you don't fall in love. Right. And I met a I met a girl in rehab. Then I ended up pretty much getting kicked out of the rehab with her. And then, yeah.

Yeah. Did you end up marrying her or no? No. Okay. So this was just a temporary girlfriend. Yeah. And what happened to her? Like, did you guys move somewhere? Yeah. Yeah. We, we went down to West Palm beach. That's so that's how you ended up in Florida.

Um, this is my second time in Florida. Okay. Yeah. This currently is your second time. So that was your first time like officially moving there. Moving there. Yeah. Do you go back into addiction after leaving with her? So she, she really wanted to stay clean, but I didn't want to stop smoking weed. So like I was, so like, at least for me, like I, uh, it's all or nothing. Like if I'm going to smoke weed, like,

We might as well drink. If we're going to be on a Friday night drinking, we might as well do some blow. Right. It's like, you know, peanut butter and jelly, you know, so like all my my my weed bone is connected to my alcohol bone. My alcohol bone is connected to my heroin bone. Like, you know what I mean? Sooner than later, I'm going to end up back on another hard substance. This is how my brain's worried. You know what I mean? This is how it's wired.

And me and her, you know, me and her stay together for a little while. And then we break up because, you know, I'm just I'm an unstable person at this point. And then I go back to Columbus, Ohio. And at this point, like my reputation has been like kind of ruined. Everyone's like, oh, he's a crackhead. He's a junkie. Used to like be up here and have this and do this. And now, like, you know, I'm back at, you know, a family member's house, you know, pretty much living in a spare bedroom with absolutely nothing.

And like, I was really defeated. And then like, you know, I thought, I thought like the, the, the heat was off of me or whatever, but like, I just like, I knew that they were still interested in me. And like the, the thing that my, my final straw, there was this police officer, right. And he, they were serving a warrant on this dude and they got into a shootout and like the, the dude they're serving the warrant on like a shot and killed one of the police officers. Right. And,

And they were having like a ceremony downtown, you know, like how they bring like all the cop cars out and the SWAT, like a funeral service, like a big funeral service and all the, you know what I mean? And I remember I was just walking downtown one day and, you know, at this, and it was such, it was such a downfall because like, you know, I felt on the top of the world and, you know, I used to make decent money and I'm literally taking the bus to go like work in a kitchen.

Downtown, right? But anyway, I'm going to work and I'm like, is there a parade or something today? And I'm out there and I'm right on Marconi Boulevard where the police headquarters is. And they're having the procession just as I'm walking downtown, right? Like, oh, this is crazy because that helicopter I was telling you about, it's flying street level and they got the hearse and the SWAT truck. It's like a police helicopter.

funeral procession like oh this is pretty interesting you know what I mean and I remember there was this like you could tell he was copying like he was in his suit and stuff and I remember I was standing there and like I was watching him out of my peripherals and he like looked at me

looked away and then like double looked at me. Right. And I know I didn't like have a warrant or anything. Like I wasn't wanted for anything, but it was like definitely a sign of recognition. And like, I'm still watching them out of my peripheral. And like, he tapped the guy next to him. Like, and they were like, I knew they were talking about me. I'm like, why are these, why would they be talking about me? You know what I mean? And I knew it was a, I knew it was time to get out of there. So like I had moved to, you know, my, my, my fucking I'm ruined.

All my friends and like my whole social group, like, you know, where I used to have like some sort of little bit of status or whatever. They all think I'm worth as junkie and I'm actually back on heroin. Right. And I barely have any money and I just want to get the fuck out of Columbus, Ohio. So I literally go to the public library and I hop on Google. Right. And I'm just like the easiest place for an American to get a work visa.

That's what you Googled? That's what I Googled. I'm like, I'm just going to get out of the country. That was drastic. That was drastic. And New Zealand popped up. Right? And to any young people out there traveling, like I like helping people. I've actually helped a few people out with this. New Zealand has a reciprocal, like a...

A visa that goes both ways with the U.S. is called the work and holiday visa. And you could go live and work and travel in New Zealand for one year. And I was like, all right, shit. And like I filled out the application on like the New Zealand immigration Web site.

And I was like done in five minutes. And then within like three weeks, they granted me this visa to go to New Zealand to work for a year. Like I couldn't believe it. I thought it was a joke. Right. But mind you, I'm still on heroin and I have no money.

So my how the fuck am I going to pull this off? Right. So I'm working at this little diner or whatever. And I end up and I like I found some old dusty equipment in my best friend's house. And I'm like, yeah, we're going to run one more round. Right. You know what I mean? So I could go with like some money and we end up running around and spending it all on dope. And I bought a plane ticket like six months out.

Right. And my goal is like to save X amount of dollars to like fly to New Zealand with. But I end up like between the dope addiction and then just being an idiot, I only end up saving like eighteen hundred bucks. So like I'm about to literally move to the other side of the world with eighteen hundred dollars to my name. Right. And I'm still on dope.

So I literally show up at the airport to fly to the other side of the world. And I'm like, all right, I'm done taking heroin. So I literally get on this airplane to fly to New Zealand, withdrawing from heroin. I was like, all right, this is it. I'm going to change my life.

You know what I mean? And you had no job lined up. You just have the visa, but no job. Just have the visa. Wow. Yeah. Like I'd done some like research, like backpacking culture is real big, like in other parts of the world, like Europe and stuff. So like I scout out like hostels and like ways I could find work, but I didn't have anything like set in stone. Why do you think in your mind you needed to go to a different country to escape the issues you were having? Why couldn't you find that here? It's the old geographical cure thing.

thing you think like oh i'll go somewhere else and like everything's gonna be fine right but like you know at the end of the day i i moved to different states and cities and continents and countries but at the end of the day i still bring myself with all my bullshit you know what i mean so what ends up happening oh that's a whole that's so this yeah so i uh

Ended up in New Zealand. So the girl I met in rehab, we had got back together. Like we had broken up and like a month before we go, we get back together. I'm like, oh, why don't you come to New Zealand with me? Right. So it's already a shit show on wheels. But I go and I'm there like 30 to 60 days like before she does. Right. Because she has to like finish up some things. Then she's flying out. And like like literally there was like no transition or no like easing into it. I went from.

being on heroin to just being like a horrible, pretty much alcoholic. Like the moment I, cause I showed up and like, I didn't have no heroin. So I just started drinking real heavy. Right. And like, it's a shit show from the beginning, man. And like, uh, I feel kind of bad about it, but like, you know, I go and I stay at this backpackers hostel and like most of these,

younger people, you know what I mean? They're like real backpackers. They're like gap year students, like, you know, from high school to university or they're like young professionals, you know, taking a break from their career or something. They're like trying to travel the world and like take pictures. And like, I'm just over there, like some washed up fucking heroin addict who fucked up in the weed industry, trying to like run away from my past and like this,

perceived law enforcement drama I got going on back home. And like, I, uh, I don't like fit in too well. And I fly into Auckland, New Zealand. It's like their biggest city. Right. And I stay, uh, pretty, kind of not quite, but it's kind of, it'd be like staying in like Manhattan, like in the city center, like real busy. And I'm staying at this hostel and I immediately like start having problems. And what do I do? I find the people just like me.

Right. They look different. They might speak different languages or have different accents. But I found the troublemakers like immediately. Right. And and like at least with like opiates, like if I just want to go like hide in a dark room and be left to fuck alone. But like when I when I start drinking real heavy, I want to be like out drinking.

And out and about like around people like causing trouble, all this crazy shit. Right. And then, you know, I took in like this knife with me.

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almost getting into knife fights with fucking homeless people from Auckland, New Zealand. You know what I mean? I acquired this like tiny little piece of shit van and I ended up getting a DUI in it.

You know what I mean? So like I'm in a different country already like involved in their criminal justice system. Right. And it's a trip like I had this van. Right. And I was like speeding down the highway and their cop cars are different than us. Right. And like everything's on the opposite side of the road. Even the steering wheels on the opposite side. And like there's a Subaru in front of me, like this blue Subaru in front of me going like really slow. Like, man, what the fuck? So I like speed around the Subaru. It was a cop car. Wow.

Because like I'm used to like Crown Vicks and Explorers and stuff. So they pull me over and like I ended up going to court in New Zealand for a DUI because of my drinking. And, you know, that's a whole nother like, you know, the judges over there were like like George Washington wigs. Like in England. Like the USA in England. Right. And what's really crazy is like, you know, how you go to a poach the bench. There's like these little flappy doors like, you know, waist high. And anytime you go into that section, like in front of the judge, you have to bow.

And then as you turn around and leave, you have to turn around and bow again. I think it's like that in Canada, too. They wear, like, those weird outfits or whatever. Right. Yeah, the weird court outfits. Yeah. Wow. And, you know, and then, like, I'm in this hostel, and, like, I remember –

I just, I'm surprised I didn't get in so much more trouble. And, like, the drinking just kept bringing me problems. Like, I was bringing problems. And, like, this dude tried to stab me with, like, a broken mug or whatever. And, like, we had gotten into an argument. And he, like, pushed me. And I just kind of, like, pushed him back. And he, like, disappeared, right? And I'm at, like, the desk of the hostel trying to work this thing out with this dude. And he was drunk. And he comes, like, running up this stairway with this, like, broken cup.

He's like a Brazilian dude And he's like swinging it at me Right And like I run and like You know how the phone booth dividers Are like made of glass Or whatever So I'm trying to get away from this guy And I run through like Three different layers Of these like phone These glass phone booth protectors And it shatters everywhere And long story short Like we end up in a wrestling match And he like Like cut Like you know The hoodie I was wearing But he didn't get me And I like get the upper hand on him And like I said I'm not like an MMA fighter I'm not a tough guy or whatever But I ended up

Like making him unconscious long story short So now i'm like dude i'm in like a different country And like this guy is now unconscious from like me defending myself and like the cops show up but lucky enough. Um It was self-defense and it was all on camera But anyway, the girl girl shows up, you know, like a month and a half later and like, you know I'm drunk and belligerent every day. It doesn't last that long, right? So I literally break up with this girl in a different country and then um

I'm like, all right, well, I got to figure this out. So I literally, uh, I hitchhike New Zealand's made up of two islands, the North and the South Island. And we were a knuckling. So I ended up hitchhiking all the way down to the South Island with the intention of finding work. And there was a, there was a point where I showed up in this town and I had $0. I had no job and I had no place to live. And I just like had the, the, the fucking pack on my back. You know what I mean? Um,

And like it just kept getting me down and down. I end up wiggling out of it. I got like a job on a farm and I got one paycheck. And then I ended up getting steady in employment. And then when I'm over there during all this, my dad dies. Right. So like I'm in a random country and I can't get home. So I don't make it home for my dad's funeral.

You know, this girl I've been dating for a long time and, um, you know, I had nothing bad to say about it. I really liked her. I'm broken up with her. Like, um, you know, and all the, everything I tried to build, you know, with the cannabis and like businesses and stuff, I fucked it all up and I'm like on the other side of the world and like, I'm in a really, really low place. You know what I mean? And, um,

You know, I find a steady job. And then I was like, well, there's really no reason to go home now. You know, and this is like this is where I kind of start growing. But I don't write this when I start enjoying more. They're like trying to get more out of the experience of being overseas. And I ended up getting like a little kitchen job. And I stayed there for like six months and saved up money. And like my year was coming to the end of the visa. Right. Like the end of the visa was the year was coming up.

But, you know, I was still drinking real heavy, but I wasn't being as destructive. And I was like, well, I'm not going home. And I ended up saving a few dollars, like $12,000, nothing too crazy. And I was like, all right, well, I'm going to go to Asia. All right, I'm going to go to this backpacker trail. And then Australia has a visa program just like New Zealand where you could apply for it and you could live and work in Australia up to a year. And if you do regional work, you could stay for two years. So I was like, I'm going to go to Asia.

I'm going to spend all my money. And when I have like a thousand dollars left, I'll then show up to Australia and then like remake the money and then figure it out. Right. And then things started to get things started to get better, like still drinking a lot, still being belligerent some of the time. But like I really started having like a big worldview, like when I went to Asia, like I showed up in Thailand. Yeah.

Right. And then I'm supposed to time Thailand and I ended up getting a job in living in Vietnam. Oh, wow. You know, and like at this point, like New Zealand started to knock down a lot of those barriers of like what we're taught to believe about the world and like our view of our position in it. You know what I mean? You know, we're always like, oh, this is the greatest country on Earth. There's a lot of other countries. I think they're the greatest countries.

country on earth. You know, there's a lot of nice places. I remember I was in New Zealand, right? And I was in a hostel and these two German girls came in and they were like all tan. It was like winter then. And I'm like, oh, where are you guys coming back looking all tan? It's the middle of winter. And they're like, oh, we're coming back from Vietnam. Yeah. I'm like, you were where? You know what I mean? Oh my God. It's like such a dangerous cause like I'm thinking of, you know, like our history with the Vietnam war. And they're just like, yeah, yeah, no, you're, you're an idiot. Like it's a really safe and awesome cheap country to go to. Yeah.

And I finally realized like I needed something to do because I was in Asia for

I made my way through like Thailand and Cambodia and I was like just partying real hard and like, you know, which is fun for like the first few weeks. But I was like, I really need to I really need to do something. I need a purpose to wake up for in the morning. You know, I'm sleeping until noon. I'm staying up all night. The drugs and drinking are so cheap there that, you know what I mean? It's really hard to spend all your money. So I was like, I'm going to become a scuba diver instructor. Yeah.

Right. And I found this place. They have I'd scuba dived once before in Florida. And they had this thing called a zero to hero program where they could take you from like your open water certification all the way to like a dive instructor. Right. And it was like an internship. So like if I worked there and stayed there, they would get me up to instructor and then offered me employment after. And you're sober at this point. No, no. Still drinking real heavy. Dude, I got so lucky, like and I feel bad, like like disrespecting other people's country.

But like, it's just so lax over there. Like I, once again, I didn't get pulled over. I got stopped by the police in Vietnam. And like I had a motorbike, like a 125cc, whatever. And like I could barely like keep it up, let alone ride it. And the police stopped me. You know what I mean? And you just hand them 20 bucks and they'll go away type thing. Was there a lot of addiction issues out there, like fellow addicts?

Yeah. Compare like the addiction in America that you were surrounding yourself with to over there in the different countries. So I did meet a few people just like me. Right. And but a lot of it out there is alcohol. Like people just go to party, party, party. And it's like, oh, it's part of the experience. You're supposed to like go and like drink heavy every day, all day and act stupid. Like that sounds like what we're supposed to do. And like that's our definition of fun. But if you really look at it, like, is it?

You know what I mean? Yeah. So, so what happens next? Do you get certified and you start working full time out there? Yeah. And how long do you stay out there? Yeah. I was in Vietnam about six months, six months. And like, I got the whole immersion experience. Like, uh, you know, I had the job, I went and rented an apartment, you know what I mean? I got a little motorcycle, had a little job. So like, I really, you know, I went and lived in an area away from the tourists. So like, it was, uh, it was, it was real interesting, you know? Um,

super, super interesting. It's super cheap too. Like, you know, I had a little bit of savings, but like my daily budget was like 10 bucks and you could like get your, your 60 cent pack of cigarettes, your breath, you know what I mean? All for 10 bucks, your breakfast, your lunch, your dinner, and a few beers. So like, I was just kind of living on that high life, but, um, and you know, what's funny is like, especially now, like what's going on in the news, like, uh,

I was working illegally, right? And then in the news now, people are talking about undocking immigrants. I've seen it from the other side of the spectrum as well. Were they hard on immigrants over there? No, not at all.

Not at all. And I mean, like, you got to think I would work 10 hour days, make like 30 bucks. So I was like making actual wages. And then like, there's a ways around it. Like we do something called like a visa run. So like you go on a tourist visa, you know, and if you had a 90 day tourist visa, when that 90th day would come up, you would literally just like, you take a bus to the Cambodian border, literally get off the bus, get on another bus and just crossing, like get another 90 day visa. You know what I mean? How'd you end up back in the U S? So I was in, um, and I've gone Australia for two years.

Oh, you did the full two years in Australia. That must have been an experience. Yeah, it was really cool. Really cool. And like, um, we've got a lot of Australian listeners on the podcast. Oh, do we? Yeah, we have a, uh, there are one, two, actually there are second country, second biggest country of listeners. Is there? It's US, Australia, Canada.

and then so on. And so on. I love Australia. Aussies are cool, man. Aussies are super cool. I got a hell of experience. So I ended up in a city called Perth. It's like way on the West Coast, right? And there's supposed to be like a lot of mining jobs I kept being told about. And I show up in like, I don't know if it was like a bad season or the economy just kind of couldn't find a job. So I ended up like hitchhiking all the way across like the southern continent of Australia. And then there's this place called the Nalibor Plain. It's like the longest, straightest place

road on earth or whatever and um I had to find this guy who was dogging his boats and um I end up in Melbourne and I was in Melbourne's a big city I compared to like Chicago maybe I mean like different flavor but like same same same kind of I guess and um I actually ended up finding um

A junkie. I actually ended up getting strung out in Melbourne, Australia temporarily. Like I was running out of money and I found a job in a cafe just like washing cups. And there was like this waiter and like, you know, we started talking or whatever. And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah. You know, me and my family's taking travelers. He's like, oh, you come like stay on my couch if you want to. Like, all right, so we'll go and stay on his couch. He ended up being like a junkie. So me and this dude,

ended up like, you know, just fucking sitting around getting high for like three weeks. But then I realized like I was getting like it was going to get bad again. So like I left. I ended up going to this place called Darwin, which is like in the Northern Territory. And then like part of this thing to like extend your visa, you have to do like regional work.

So like a place where Aussies won't, they have like a labor shortage. So I went to this place called the Northern Territory and to put the Northern Territory in the perspective, it's like four or five Texas's with this, with the population of like 250,000 people. So it's like super desolate and they have their like indigenous out there, like the indigenous Australians. So like, you know, I was up there and like, I got involved in their culture, but the alcohol kept messing with me. Right. So like I was at a job for like six months, but like I just alcohol, you

like I was just sloppy and I ended up getting fired from a job because of my drinking. Like I was drinking on the job. And then ultimately what got me fired was, uh, like there was this, like I worked on a, am I rambling? No, you're good. No, I'm not good to bring me in. If you got to bring me in, but you're good.

Yeah. So like, uh, I was working at this place called matter ranker, right. In a middle of fucking nowhere, bro. And it, um, has these thermal pool Springs. That's why people come there. And the guy that I worked for, he owned like a gas station, a pub and like a homestead where like people would camp and bring their campers if they're traveling like across the outback. And I was like, this dude's like gopher or whatever. So like, you know, I'd be like supplying a stores and be cleaning up all his properties and,

And like during the busy season, he would have a live band like play every night for all the campers like in this little stage area. And then like this, long story short, me and like the lead singer of the band end up getting into it and things got like physical. So they end up firing me. They're like, you got to go. They're like, we really appreciate you. Like you've done a lot of good work around here, but pretty much told me my drink is out of control and like good luck. All right.

And then I ended up going to the East Coast for the Australian listeners. I ended up in this small town called Port Douglas. And it's just north of Kansas in far north Queensland. And it's actually the port where Steve Irwin left out of the boat when he got barred by the thing, right? Oh, that was there where he died? No. So the port he left out of. Okay. That's where it happened. And mind you, now I'm a scuba diver, sure. So my main goal for all of this was like, all right, so I'm going to go –

Like, I'm going to do my commitment for the visa and I'm going to go work on the Great Barrier Reef. Right. And I ended up getting a job like doing day trips out to the Great Barrier Reef, like just like leading tourists around. And I ended up finagling my way on to like this to this research boat. Right. And there's these boats.

There's these starfish called the Great Crown of Thorns starfish. They're these massive big blue starfish and they eat coral. They like suck the polyps out of it, right? And they're supposed to be there, but they're breaking out in like crazy amount of numbers. And I'm like –

uh, Queensland is like the biggest sugar cane producer in the world. And like a lot of nutrients run off to the reef. A lot of reasons why the reefs not doing too well, but the government literally paid like a few companies to go out and eradicate these. So like we would go out on a boat for like two weeks at a time. And then we would literally just dive down and try to find all these starfish. And then if we found an outbreak, we'd literally just like, we had these like tanks with like a, a big prod and we would just like inject them with pretty much vinegar. Right. But this was starting to get really good for me. Right. Because every time we go out to sea, uh,

I couldn't drink. I couldn't even smoke cigarettes. So like it started really like, you know what I mean? I started balancing out quite a bit more. And like, I felt like I was getting it under control a little bit, but deep down I really wasn't, you know what I mean? So like I learned a lot, met a lot of really cool people. And mind you, I've told you my backstory now. So like, I almost feel like,

I'm just a wolf in sheep's clothing, right? If these people really knew that they just know me as like, I'm this American that was traveling and I just show up on their boat and like I'm a good worker. If only they have no idea what I'm actually doing.

Coming from you know because I don't like tell people you know like you always be a junkie I fuck my whole life up, and I'm actually out running some problems back where I'm from you know I mean you're like an international junkie. I'm like Please don't put that on my fucking Please don't do that

You know, it's interesting how ambitious you were for being an addict. Yeah. Like you had goals. Yeah, always have. I never really met too many former addicts that did have a lot of goals. They were kind of just like stagnant, not really knowing what they wanted to do. Yeah. I just, man, I've always felt like a big pull out into the world. Like I know there's something out there. You know what I mean? Like I could feel it. I just don't know what it is. And I don't know. But anyway, so these people wanted to –

And it's crazy because like especially what's going on i'm not making this political or whatever But like uh, what's going on now with like the immigration crackdown, right? So this uh employer I was working for they wanted to uh I was on the temporary work visa. It was coming expired They uh, there's a visa sponsorship for residency And he was willing to go through the process where he would sponsor me to work for him and after x amount of years I would uh

Be like a permanent resident in Australia. Right. I was like, this is it, man. Like, I never have to go back to Columbus, Ohio. Never have to be around those people again. You know what I mean? Like, this is like my fighting chance. Granted, like my drink is still like not doing too well, but I'm like this. This is my out. You know what I mean? I never have to go back. I made it. I made it out because a lot of people in Ohio are stuck. A lot of people everywhere are stuck.

You know, and then around that same time, there was a prime minister that was getting voted into office. His name was Scott Morrison. And he literally was running with the undertones of make Australia great again. Right. And this was a.

You know, you know, before Trump got in office this time and he got elected and he tightened up the same thing that's going on here. He like made the process for getting these more permanent visas harder. So like I fucked up. And then if I didn't leave, I was going to be there illegally.

So they kicked you out. They didn't kick me out. I left before my visa expired. I contemplated staying illegally, but it's an island. So like if you're there illegally, you might be able to like last a while. But if I ever had to like come back to the United States for the moment, I went to an airport to fly internationally. Like I'd be smoked. So like what's the point of building a whole life and then like, you know, being kicked out?

Anyway, I'm like, I lick my wounds and I fly back to Columbus, Ohio. And I'm not even back. It is my first time back in the United States in like three and a half, almost four years. And the very first night I get back, I overdose on fentanyl. Yeah.

Yeah. Cause the game's changed a bit. Cause like I've been out like, you know, the dope, the real heroin and still been around like the Mexican black tar and the, and like the China white, like it was still heroin, heroin. So like the, and like I would check the, the U S media and like, I would see like all this fentanyl stuff's making a way around it. And like, I remember like fentanyl from like the patches or like in hospital, but like,

This is like a whole new thing. So like I show back in literally first night. What was it that attracted you to it? Was it like wrong place, wrong time? Like someone gave it to you or do you just like saw like what, what in you? I had a reservation. I was like, I was like, I couldn't like, it was crazy. I didn't want to leave Australia in like this little life, but I couldn't like wait to get back to do some opiates. Just like it's that disease of addiction.

You know what I mean? And I just knew it. Like the whole, like literally the moment I had to leave, like I knew I had to leave and like I bought ticket a few weeks out. Like from that countdown, I was like, I can't wait to get back to Columbus and do some fucking dope. And like, Oh, it makes it even worse. I was driving a vehicle. Right. And like, uh,

Dude slid me some and like I snorted it, you know what I mean? And like I'm used to doing like, you know, coke and fucking even like, you know, pain pill lines, not knowing like, you know, just a little bit of the shit could really do it. And like, you know, I do a line of the fentanyl and like I'm driving my buddies. I feel so bad too. I was like driving this brand new Buick and I'm like, huh? And then I

It's like when I got punched back in juvie and I came to it like I come to it, I'm in the back of an ambulance. You know what I mean? I'd wreck this car into a ditch and they had to bring me back to life, man. And then that started a whole new thing as well, right? So now I'm back in Columbus and I got all these experiences and I know what my potential is and I know what I can do. And I'm back in Columbus fucking Ohio, man.

Doing gutters all strung out on dope and it like I'm coming into the winter. So like everything's like gray and depressed and and like it's the season of the sticks. So there's like no leaves on the fucking trees. And then like everyone I had left for those four years, like they're all worse off because now they're on the fetinal. Like, you know, a lot of people I used to respect and grow up. They're like real street zombies now because like, you know, the progression you leave for a gap.

And then like, uh, you know, a lot of the guys in, in like, they, they tell you this when you're younger, right? Like, uh, back when they were trying to intervene, when I was going to juvie, like, Oh, you need to stop hanging out with them friends. You guys are going to end up like X, Y, and Z. Right. And you're just always like, Oh yeah, not us. Like, you know, we're young. And then like, you know, here I am 31, 30, 31. And like, it all came true. You know what I mean? Everyone, um, dead of an overdose or like, uh, you know, a car accident or violence around drugs. Uh,

lengthy prison sentences or just dereliction. You know what I mean? And I just, I couldn't believe it. And, you know, then I ended up back on the fucking fentanyl. And then, you know, I meet back with my old, I meet back with my, and I'm just like super fucking defeated, right? And I was like, I'm not doing this. So I ended up reaching out to this boating company in the Caribbean to work on a boat.

So thankfully I'm in Columbus a month and I escaped back out, you know, and once again, like you remember how I got on the plane to New Zealand withdrawing. Now I'm like leaving to go join a ship withdrawing in the Caribbean. Right.

And I, but I'm not as bad off as I had been. And I ended up shaking the cobwebs out. I'm working on this boat for two months and there's this, this girl that's where, so like, it's called a live aboard. So like, it's a not fancy as a yacht, but it's like a charter. Like, let's say you want to go diving for a week, right?

right you can book a charter on this boat and all we do is like go around a few different islands throughout the caribbean we dive dive dive dive dive all day every day and i would just like lead people out to show them shit you know what i mean and then uh they hired uh a purser a purser's like uh handles the money passports money like that position on but like secretary almost and me and her hi i'm kristin bell carvana makes car buying easy isn't that right hun dax

Dax? Sorry, did you know about this seven-day money-back guarantee? A week to evaluate seat comfiness, you say? A week of terrain tests? Yeah, I can test the brake pad resistance at variable speeds. Make sure all the kids' stuff fits nicely? Make sure our stuff fits nicely. Oh, the... Right. Still need to buy the car. Getting ahead of ourselves here. Buy your car with Carvana today. Not dating. We've only known each other like two weeks, and I get her pregnant.

- Oh wow. - And I get her pregnant and we're like, well, this sucks. We didn't say anything, but she like dives sometimes. So eventually she has to start saying something because you know, diving and being under pressure could affect the baby. And you know, so we'd work like eight weeks on

And then like we took like three weeks off and I would go to Puerto Rico because like we would get paid in cash. Right. We'd have like I mean, not like bricks, hundreds, but, you know, like a few thousand dollars, like 20s and 10s and shit. So I'd fly to Puerto Rico and put it in a bank that's like connected to the US. And like me and her, we're like we're trying to figure it out. Like, what are we going to do? You know what I mean? And as we're talking about this, like how we're going to tell the company, maybe I still work, get some money. She goes back home. They fire us both.

and like leave us kind of borderline stranded in Puerto Rico. Why'd they fire you guys? Cause of your relationship? Yeah. Cause of the relationship. They, they didn't say it. But inferred it. Inferred it. And are you sober at this point? Did the going and working there get you sober? Uh, off the hard drugs. Okay. But, uh, still on the liquor. Still on the liquor. Yeah. We'd only have one day off a week to drink. And then, uh,

you know i would drink and then like it started sliding back in because like uh i was like all right this is a good chance to like clean up just drink once a week and that worked for a few weeks then like i would bring a bottle back then at the end of the night like i would you know what i mean and then uh so i have this girl who i've only known for a few weeks pregnant with my kid and we're stranded in puerto rico and i might have like a thousand dollars left to my name

You know what I mean? And she's from New Jersey and I'm from, you know, Columbus. I'm like, all right, here's what we'll do. You go back to Jersey. I'll go back to Columbus. We'll try to get some money together and then we'll figure it out. All right. So I go back to Columbus. I'm like, I'm going to stay off the dope. I'm going to stay off the dope. I'm going to stay off the dope. First night back in Columbus. Again, I overdosed on fentanyl. You know what I mean? And I'm like, shit.

So, you know, I'm real messed up and I'm, and then, so at this point I hadn't seen my mom in quite some time, quite a few years since, um,

Right after I escaped that placement back in Columbus. I hadn't really seen her that much up until this point. But I started talking to her overseas like we would talk online and stuff. And I reach out to her and I'm like, can I come stay with you? And this is the first time I've actually lived with a parent since I was probably 14, 15 years old. So I show back to Columbus with my tails between my legs. And I keep telling myself like,

The addict mind is crazy because like I overdosed on the fentanyl, but that time, like it didn't end up in ambulance, just ended up like someone needed an ARC in me. And I told him like the addict mind, I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm going to stop before, before I've been doing it long enough.

Until I start going and withdraw, right? So like I would be like, yeah, tomorrow I'm going to stop and then tomorrow will come. Tomorrow I'm going to stop before like I start having withdraw. Tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow. And then like next thing you know, I've just been on it every day for like three months. Then eventually just throwing the towel. You're like, fuck it. We're just going to ride this one out, right? And I fucking get back in with the guy I used to grow weed with. And then I end up back in Detroit.

Right. So here we are, Detroit 2.0. Like thinking that what's the definite like I like someone said one time, like, you know, the old saying, like definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expect different results. The real definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over, knowing the results and still doing it. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I'm like, yeah, this is going to this is going to fix it all again, you know, and and and yeah.

And that I started getting more into like the trafficking aspect of it. Like we were growing a bit up in Detroit, but then like I would do the actually like driving from Detroit to Columbus thing. You know what I mean? So I was taking like some real fucking risks doing it. And once again, I got to the point where like my like how much I was making was more than the amount I was spending on dope.

Right. And then so I would go to New Jersey every few months and like I'd leave her with some money. You know, I felt like good about myself. You know what I mean? But really, I was just being a shit bag. And then one one time I went out there and like I was like able to like take like some suboxone or like some medication, like help me not be sick when I'd be visiting her for a few days. But I started getting worse and worse, worse. And I go out there.

And, um, after my daughter's born and like, I'm still actively getting high and like, I'm laying on her couch and like, I'm holding my daughter and I like, I'm nodding out from the dope and she sees it and she like calls me out on it as, as someone rightfully should. Right. And then, um, she basically told me to fuck off. And then like, uh, I didn't see her or my daughter for like two years. And that was like the, the, the apple on the cake.

Right? I've never heard that one before. Apple on the cake. I'm nervous, Ian. I'm trying my best here. No, you're killing it, man. That was the fucking cherry on the pie. Apple on the cake. Apple on the cake. I don't know who puts apple. Actually, there probably are apple cakes, right? Yeah. Like little bits of apple in the cake. Yeah, yeah. It's probably pretty good. If not, we can start it, man. Or you could say apple on the pie.

Apple in the pie, right. All right, so two years goes by. I'm not seeing your kid. So, and then I go back to Columbus, and then, like, we're doing pretty good. And then, like, you know, I was a little late to the party this time, but then, like, we started getting involved in, like, the PACs. You know, everyone knows about the PACs now, right? So, like, when I was gone all those years, like, that guy I originally started out growing the cannabis with, he stayed in it. He kept progressing, and, like, he kept building and building and building.

so like, uh, you know, he had like met people out in California. So like we were going out to California and like doing the whole LA go up to the Bay thing and, you know, like sending shit back. And, um, and then like, Oh, the fucking whole game. And it's crazy. Cause I remember like back from the first time he put me in a house back in, you know,

Right after I got kicked out of the National Guard. And we thought we were balling because we were getting $4,000 a pound off of one 1,000 watt. And now there's all this crazy shit like the cartridges and the distillates. And the Deltas and everything. And the Deltas and shit. But what's really crazy is when I came the fuck back, he was telling me weed prices. Now there's outdoors and depths and exotics. And there's all these tiers of fucking weed. You know what I mean? And he was telling me the prices on these fucking...

Like, you know what I mean? Like outdoor, you get a pound of decent outdoor weed without seeds from California for like $1,800. So what really happened, especially for indoor smaller growers, like unless you were growing the best, like you weren't even making a fucking profit. I mean, not a profit. I mean, it wasn't even worth doing it. You know what I mean? Like how low prices would go. Like back in the day, if you grew a pound of weed that did not have seeds, like you could fuck around somehow make $4,000 out of that pound. And now like, you know, you have to grow the best of the best.

Even get close to that number because there's so much competition because there's so much competition and um, you know And then we ended up so me in this part So really bad on it and then I end up and what's crazy is when you try to go legit Right with this with this weed shit What I found the problem is is like when you find people to buy it a lot of times like people that have like 20 30 50 60 70 thousand dollars laying around in cash and

Usually not all the time, but you sometimes they're like doing something else besides the cannabis to like make that much money. So like I started getting involved in this dude and he was like,

Involved in the crystal meth he ice he was selling ice, but he also wanted to cannabis So like I was coming around him and I'd never done the crystal meth before right and then like you know my daughter You know my my daughter's mother doesn't want nothing to do with me I'm back in fucking Columbus, Ohio again in my 30s. You know what I mean like fuck this you know I've told you everything before and um somehow I ended up like

starting smoking meth. But I mean, at that point, like if you're already doing fentanyl, like what, what's, what do you got to lose? What do you got to lose? Putting the apple on the pie, you know what I mean? And, um, I'd always somehow managed to like keep it together on opiates ish. You know what I mean? But the moment I started doing ice, that's like when the real, um,

the real collapse started happening. And it was actually like, it like, there was like a plateau. Like I started doing it and like, I was actually like ultra productive. Right. Like, damn, I'm getting a lot done here. And I'm like super good at it. And then eventually, eventually like you come around that peak and then you start crashing, you know what I mean? And like, uh, and like at that point, like,

I was in full-on criminality mode. So, like, besides, like, you know, a little bit of meth and then, like, doing the packs and trying to cultivate, like, I was trying to, like, get in the fraud and shit. So, like, I would set up, like, this lab, like, laboratory, like, have a few, like, laptops and some notebooks. And, like, I would, like, I'd stay up all night, like, getting shit done. And, like, I would be able to do it. And then, like, before too long, like...

I'm supposed to do all this work and it's 6 a.m. and I'm just I've beat off like seven times and I'm like looking up dolphin migratory patterns in the Pacific Ocean. I've done nothing for eight hours and it just goes by like that. And then it really started crashing. And then like me and me and buddy, we were going out to Oklahoma because like they opened up like the floodgates on some beach.

Shit out shit out in Oklahoma and me and him ended up having a fallout and Long story short. We're not friends anymore like I

He accused me of stealing something, didn't steal anything. I've been working with this guy for over a decade. Took it really in solid. He like threatened to shoot my sister's house up. Like some real crazy shit. Right. I was like, I've known you this long and you're going to like, that's how we're going to end it. So now I don't have any of the cannabis money coming in and I'm like a full on fentanyl ice junkie. Right. And like, and then I start crashing and then I don't have a lot of money. And then it's, it's so crazy how, like you always look at like on,

On TV Like superstar Like movie actors Or athletes You're like damn man They had a contract For like millions of dollars How are they like

You know, I fucked up broke, don't have anything like I get it. Why? And by no means was I anywhere close to their level. But like, I know what it's like to have like a have everything you need. You know what I mean? And then just it slowly just starts going away. And before you know it, like I didn't have the place where I lived anymore. You know what I mean? Without a mom to move somewhere else, lost that place. So now I'm like staying in someone's house that has kids like in the spare bedroom.

Um, then before you know it, like I lose my car cause I get pulled over. And then before you know it, like all my money just slowly starts chinking away and then they don't want me living there anymore. And I remember I woke up and I didn't wake up because I'm smoking ice, right? But I come to it one morning and I realized, and it's just so crazy how it happened that I don't have a car. I don't have any money. I don't have any way to make any money and I have nowhere to go sleep tonight.

And I, and like, just like that, I was like, oh, I'm like officially a homeless drug addict. You know what I mean? And, and, um, anyone from Columbus, um, like, you know, every side of town has like the drug year part of town where there's like a lot of homeless and drug activity. And Columbus is like the West side. They call it the Hilltop is the neighborhood. And then, um, you know, I literally just found myself wandering around homeless and it just got real bad. And then like the, the winter time happened, um,

And I was literally living as like a homeless junkie on the streets of West Columbus, Ohio. And coming from everything like I've told you. And you always like see those people driving by the streets like, damn, man, how's he get there? Like, does he have a story? Was he just born like into the like, you know, in the like, I realized everyone was

has a story that's out there and some may vary like if you would have seen me at my worst like you know I started like you know my beard started growing out my hair growing out like my clothes were looking all shitty I would have that like real feral look in my eyes you know what I mean and like if you would have looked at me then you would have had no idea that like I was working on a research boat on the Great Barrier Reef Australia or like I used to have a small business and you know run all this and it was just real it's real demoralizing

You know what I mean? And like, uh, I don't even really like talking about it. And this went on for quite a few months and it was really fucking cold, you know? And I, like I found this, uh, this abandoned, um, uh, Ford, uh, I don't know. Dealership.

an old like 90s Ford Taurus that had been abandoned in like this parking lot and no one was coming back for it. So I was like, this is where I live now. So I was like literally just living out of like this abandoned Ford Taurus. Wow. And, you know, it got really bad in my like, oh shit moment, I need to change. So like I had acquired like,

Some Tide, like Tide, you know, the shit you wash your clothes with. Like, you know, the big jugs, that's a bit of money, right? And I had two of them. I mean, you probably guess how I got them, but I had two of them and I was trying to sell them, right? And it was night. It was snowing. I was at this like gas station corner store. This Mexican lady had pulled up. She had two kids in the back and she was getting back in her car and she was like halfway in her car, halfway in the door. And like, I'm like in her face, like forcibly trying to sell her this fucking thing.

Laundry detergent. You know what I mean? And I just remember like I caught a glimpse of myself in the reflection in the window. And like I just saw my face in the window. And then like I saw like the fear in her eyes. And I look in the back seat and I see like her two children. Like I'm not like, you know, I'm not technically blind.

Like robbing her by any means, but like I'm so forcibly trying to get her to buy this fucking laundry soap off me just so I could get high that and I saw it happening in like real time in the reflection. And it just tripped me out. Like I had these crazy bags under my eyes and I just, I look feral. And that's crazy coming from what I, just what I came from. And then I knew it was going to, but it's something that's easier said than done to get help, right? Especially when you're getting high just to not get sick, right?

You know what I mean? Especially on the open, it's like you don't even get high anymore. You're literally just trying to make 20 to 50 more dollars just so you won't be extremely dope sick. And that is your day every single day. And you're like, tomorrow, I'm going to do something about it. But then tomorrow comes, you're so busy trying to make that 20 to 50 bucks that by the time the end of the night comes and you finally get that bag and you finally stop from being sick, you're like, okay, tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow. And the time just keeps on going, man. And finally, a big winter storm came and I used to go to this like

It's called Jordan's Crossing. It's off, like, Hague Avenue. Anyone from Columbus knows where it's at. But the guy, his son was Jordan, and he had overdosed, like, this older guy. And, like, he, like, gives space eaters and blankets and food, and it's a food pantry. And they used to give out hot lunches every day. So I used to go over there. And every Wednesday, they had a Mount Carmel, like, outreach hospital bus that came. Like, people, like, come check on people, give band-aids or whatever. And there's this lady named Karen, and Karen would always fucking –

you know she'd be like I'll get you into treatment I could get you into treatment and I was like no no no can I borrow 20 bucks she's like ah no and like I'd always like you know what I mean and then one day I was just like after that incident I was like Karen can you like get me into some treatment you know what I mean and um I just I was completely defeated and um

You know, she helped me get my treatment. It took a few days. And you know what's crazy is she's like, all right, well, we're getting this place down the street here. I'm like, you need to get me as far away from this fucking shithole of a city. And it's crazy because, like, I love Columbus. It is a good town. Like, there's good parts of it. There's bad, like, any city, right? And Ohio is one of those places, like, I could talk shit about it and other Ohioans could talk shit about it. But the moment, like, an outsider talks shit about it, then we're like, hey, hey, don't talk about our state like that. I feel like that's everywhere.

That's everywhere. And she's like, I'll get you here on this side of town. I'm like, you need to get me as far away from Columbus as you can. And they got me in this place called Toledo, Toledo, Ohio. It's northwest corner. Yeah, I've heard of Toledo. Yeah, a little old Toledo. And you know what's crazy, Ian, is like I've been going to these – this trap house ran by, let's say, an organization or a group of people, a group of these guys. And they had like two or three in the neighborhood that ran 24-7 Christmas parties.

New years everything and like I had decent credit with them, right? But I never used it because like if I had the cash and I was like, all right, i'm gonna go i'm going to rehab today I'm gonna go ask for something on credit and then i'm just gonna dip out right and god damn it I go and I knock on the door for the first time in a very long time No one has any dope and I thought that's when my harass who raw but you know, uh, you took it as a sign I took it as a sign and you know, I ended up uh

They ended up coming to pick me up and took me to Toledo, Ohio, and I've been clean ever since. What year was that? Did you get clean? Three years ago. Congratulations, man. Yeah, thank you, thank you. I just celebrated three years. Do you think going back to Ohio was always your downfall? Yes and no.

It's a big piece because people get cleaned in the hometown where they've done dope all the time. You know what I mean? I just feel like if you went somewhere different when you came back to the United States, you might have saved some years of your life. No. Or you think you needed that. I just wasn't done yet. And I fully think in recovery, like, you're not done until you're done. And in some cases, that's death. In some cases, that's death. Jails and institutions are death.

Or seeing the other side like you've been able to. So what's your life like now since getting clean? What do you do now? Shoot, man. And what happened to your daughter's mother? Yeah, yeah. So went up in Toledo. Toledo's a...

So you heard the term Rust Belt? Yeah, yeah. Right? It's a Rust Belt state, right? Ohio's a Rust Belt state. Toledo's the true embodiment of like a Rust town city. Smaller town, small city, somewhat bigger town. And I ended up going to treatment, ended up going to like a Medicaid ran place. So by no means it wasn't fancy at all. A lot of people were in there like ducking,

Sentences, you know what I mean? Because like the criminal justice system is so much more different than it was like when I was a juvenile and even in my early tense. Like now they got like treatment in lieu. So like drug courts, drug courts and stuff. So you get a lot of guys just ducking out of there. But I went, I just took it super serious.

I was like, this is the last house on the block and like whatever they need to do. And it was really weird. I started having like a spiritual experience. Like I was like, I'm this guy. And especially cause I was homeless. But I remember I took that first shower and I was like, this is great, man. Like my hands were all like black and had like these, like if you don't wash and take showers and you're constantly using your hands, your hands, your hands,

get these crazy calluses. I don't know how to explain like, I'm sure your fingernails. Yeah, man. And like, I remember like washing myself off and like, they didn't have the best food, but they had some food. I was like, this is great, man. And I just started taking it really serious, man. And, uh, I went, I was just going to go for their 30 day program. I was like, all right, well, I'll go back home to Columbus and look, figure something out. Maybe, you know what I mean? And then, um, they're like, uh, so we have like a transitional housing you could go to, uh,

I'm like, no, I'm going to go to Columbus or whatever. And they're like, you can make your own decisions, but I think you shouldn't stay here. So I went to the residential housing and I started taking it real serious. And I got involved in the 12 step program. And I won't say you're mentioning it. I probably figured it out if you listen to me long enough. And like I always tell people, there's like, there's different ways of recovering. You know what I mean? Like, you know, church, church.

family. Like I found my way through, through a 12 step program. And, um, I just immediately, uh, started diving deep into that. And like, uh, the residential, I had to go like do some groups through their like facility, like, you know, a few times a week. And,

And then I just started taking it real serious. And it was crazy, right? So I was able to get a job. And I had a warrant, like a misdemeanor warrant, nothing crazy. I didn't have an ID. Didn't have a social security card. I had zero fucking dollars, right? And I'm in this place, like, trying to get my life back together. My driver's license has been suspended since, like, I got kicked out of the National Guard. Haven't had a driver's license. But, you know, I started writing down goals. You know what I mean? Like, you know, what's the saying? You know how you eat an elephant? Yeah.

One bite at a time, starting with its ass. You know what I mean? I just made that last part up. That was a good addition. But, you know, I started taking it down. And, you know, I started making money. I started making breakfast sandwiches and like selling them around the transitional house before everyone went to group, like five bucks. Yeah.

You know what I mean? So I started to stack a little bit of money with that and got the warrant lifted. And then I went and got my fucking driver's license back, you know, and once again, things have changed. They got like programs now where you could like pay money into like a payment program and amnesty programs to help people get their license back. Got my fucking driver's license back, buddy. And then I was like, I could go get a real job finally. And, you know, it's hard because of where I was at. And I went to Jimmy John's. Right. And I was like.

I was like, fuck, man, I've been through all this, had all this, did all this. And I'm a 30 something year old man going to work with some teenagers at Jimmy John's. And I just have to fucking walk in. Right. Like I've had stuff. I've had cars. I've, you know, and I'm walking around.

to a sub shop to work with teenagers in my thirties. And like, I remember being real grumpy about it. Be like, walk down the street, like smug look at my God damn it. This sucks. And I was like, I gotta get grateful for this. And like, I just started looking at my goals and what I could do. And my attitude just started changing. I used to love, and then I started loving my walks to work. Like I felt free again. And like the, and, um,

You know, I don't judge anybody that like takes medications like after they get clean, but I decided like no assisted medications. I was like, I'm going to eat healthy. I'm going to exercise and I'm going to like try a 12 step program. And if I don't start feeling better, then maybe I'll consider like

taking outside medication. And like my brain's coming back and the spring started happening and like, you know, the birds are chirping. And then I found myself one day, you're going to laugh, dude. I was like cleaning the bathrooms of a fucking Jimmy John's at 30 something years old after being what I've been through. And like, I'm like, damn, I'm so grateful.

And they made me manager, right? Manager of a Jimmy John's, woohoo. But like it started being like I started using that money, started paying back my license. Like you got to start small, bro. You can't like, you know, get it, you know, live everything I've lived and then start the Ian Big podcast. You got to start somewhere. You know, what am I doing without a driver's license? So like started looking at my small little goals, like I'm staying clean, got the 12 step programs, finished that IOP thing,

um, you know, and, uh, I started taking that serious. And before you know it, there's this guy, this rich guy, and this is why you don't ever get down on yourself, man. Uh, can I like talk about programs or whatever? So there's this organization in, um, Toledo, Ohio, it's called team recovery, right? They're real big. It was started by this guy named, uh, Matt Bell or whatever. And, uh, they actually started that, the, the fuck heroin shirts. I know you've probably seen those. Someone wore it on, uh,

the show. So he started like the original, original that like way back in the day. Right. And he and he so he'd been the treatment like 60 times, been arrested homeless junkie just like me. And this guy ended up he owns a treatment center and like a bunch of like recovering house. He's doing really well for himself. Right. And he ended up giving me a job like as a land like to landscape all his properties. And like at six months clean, this guy gave me a keys to a truck and a company credit card.

And he paid me pretty decent. Like, for what? You know what I mean? Just because I kept going and, like, you know, goddammit. I had a lot of opportunity where I could have, like, embezzled some money off the gas card or took that truck somewhere else or, like, take a side job in some – but, like, I was like, if I'm going to do this all the way, like, you know, there's no, like –

You know half in half out like if i'm gonna get clean that means like i'm done like with the running rackets trying to make money the line the stealing The cheating like if i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this all the way i'm gonna keep it pure And um, you know goddamn like me doing the right thing Uh, he's I used to ride a bike like five miles like round trip to there two and a half back or some shit And uh, he's like damn he riding like a bike here every day I'm, like yeah, i'm motivated bro. And he's like just take the truck to this motherfucker like

like gave me a truck within reason. I could drive around and eventually I got my first house. Now, when all this is going on, I'm like, I need to rekindle this relationship with my mother's daughter, right? Even if she doesn't like me, hate me, I at least need to like apologize for the chaos I've created and tell her like, even if you don't want me in my daughter's life, like,

I whatever I got to do, even if it takes more time, like I would have least like to semi be there for my daughter. So me and her start talking again. I finally get my first fucking house in Toledo, like outside of recovery. And like at this point, like no one's drug testing me or anything like I could. I remember the first day I rented this like sublet house type thing. And I remember the first night I was there outside of treatment of the transitional house. I was like, I get high right now and no one would know.

You know what I mean? But the thing is, I would know, you know, and a good thing. Like I was so involved in like this 12 step group and fucking then they call it cleaning up your past. Right. Like if you picture a truck barreling down like a dust highway. Right. Even after the truck stops, it takes a while for the dust to settle. So during covid, I had gotten pulled over with some shit.

And the court systems were so backed up that they weren't like prosecuting right away. So here I am almost like nine months sober and a future indictment comes back. So like I've changed my life, everything. And I barely knew about it. And I'm literally driving to get coffee one morning in Toledo Saturday morning. I'm like, man, it's so good to just springs here. I just feel fucking great. The cop gets behind me and I'm like, oh man, I must like, and I did. I like, I, I California stopped the,

Like a red light or something like, oh man, I got a license. I got insurance. I was paid a ticket. No worries. And they ended up pulling me up out of the car and arrested me. And I ended up, so now I'm in county and like, I've left out a lot of county jail. I stints I've, I did after juvenile, but like, I'm like, fuck, I'm in county jail up in Toledo, Ohio. And I sit up there and these motherfuckers from Franklin County drive all the way up and like pack me up, take me in. Like I'm nine months clean. Yeah. And I'm just like, man, this fucking sucks, but I've done everything right. And, um, here I am. But you know, it all worked out.

All worked out. I spent a few days down there. Ended up getting released. Me and the daughter's mother, we ended up getting back together. We're still together today. I'm married to her now. Oh, so that's your current wife. The girl from the boat. That's so cool. And she, this crazy girl, she ended up moving to Toledo with me. You know, so it's like me, her, and we get a house and I just keep moving.

plugging away at the recovery thing working for Guy and then you know I was a little fed up I was like I think now's a good time we leave Ohio because like there's the relocation thing like if you're fucking up and you go somewhere else and you're just going to live the same exact way you were living like

And you're just bringing yourself with you. But I was like, this time, like I've been working on myself. I want to go start a future. Plus, I live in the tropics for a while. I used to like the ocean and fucking palm trees and not this shit out here in Connecticut, right? No offense, man. I was like, let's go move near the water, man. So that's when we moved down to...

Central Florida. And here we are in like a lot, a lot of things that helps keep me sober is like I'm super involved. Right. So in the 12 step program, I'm in there's something we call H&I. It's hospitals and institutions. So like we go into like hospitals and institutions and we take like a recovery meeting in there. Right. And yeah.

Like, you know, I I work with guys where I have like an older guy that I work with. I work with guys that are like coming in fresh off the street. And then we go into this place. It's ran by the Florida Department of Corrections. It's like a work release. And like so these guys are coming down off stretches and then they're in there like their last six months. But now they could like go out and get a job.

And like come back and forth. So like every Saturday, like we go in there, me and a few guys and we run, run this through there. And like these guys, and like, I always take like a bunch of little Debbie's and shit in there and they really dig it. And like, there was like, man, you know, we really appreciate you guys coming in, man. We, you know, it's helping us out. We appreciate it. And literally they know, like they're helping me.

Bro, they're helping me a lot more than I think I'm helping them. And a lot of times, like just hearing where they're at, because I've like been in similar situations and like sometimes my mind strays. I'm like, you know, maybe the money's not coming too well. Like, let's run this racket or do this or do that. It's like something skirting the skirts of being illegal to like make some money. Right. And then I'll hear some of their stories like I won't say his name for him.

you know personal reasons but uh you know he was in there uh he was an older dude he just got done doing 15 years for selling the equivalent of like 3300 of oxy back in the day crazy so i run the math on that bro like what the fuck is that pretty like over 3300 you know that's when they're really clamping down there's like a another like a big trend in florida a lot of these guys are out-of-towners that show up and commit a crime and end up staying like we had a guy from uh

I won't say his name, but he was from a different state. He came down, thought he was going to take like some blowback on a fucking airplane, got stuck at the airport, ended up staying in Florida for three years. Got another guy from, once again, I won't say where he's from, but he went down to Miami, thought he was going to drive back to where he was from when he got caught. Another guy that got like way too drunk and got a big physical altercation and ended up spending for it. Like a lot of these guys are just coming down there on a trip real quick, thinking they're going back home and they end up spending...

you know, years of Florida, but all things side, we take it in there and just try to, you know, and like we, we stick on their recovery and we just try to give them some hope. Right. Like you stick to do the right thing, you know, things are possible. And then we go into a treatment center on Thursdays. And that's, that really helps me. Like we, we formed a group in there. We go in there, we talk to the guys, we let the guys talk, especially in the jail. Right. Cause a lot of this guy or the work release, like,

They can't like get real intimate like on their unit for obvious reasons, right? So like it's cool. They could come in this like small little group We run with all the doors shut and they could actually talk about their feelings and shit I mean you can't do that for you know what I mean? You can't get all emotional but a bunch of guys can be a target or bullet, you know what I mean? You know what it is? It's like having these guys like get intimate and like hearing their fears and then we go into the the treatment center and we work with these guys and like, uh, you know that they they like

So when I first got clean, you hear these guys like, they'd be like, yeah, I got like 25 years clean. That don't even make sense to me because I can't even envision 25 years in my head, let alone 25 years of not cleaning.

Doing dope right and I remember there's this guy I forget his fucking name now, but he got like six months He like got this six months coin or whatever and i'm like like that sounds attainable You know what? I mean? I was like I got 30 days i'm like six I think I could do six months So like I remember I just kept thinking six months six months and I finally made it to six months So like even me just going in with three years some of these guys just coming fresh off the street Like they can look at me and be like, you know, that sounds pretty attainable. What's three years?

It really helps me. And then anytime I like, you know, my brain still straight. So like maybe, you know, maybe smoke some, but then like I look at them and I'll be like, that's where it's going to take me, you know, every fucking time. Cause like I proven to myself time and time again, I can't just be California sober. Like I just taught you, you know what I mean? So California sober when you smoke and don't do hard drugs anymore. Not that I knock it. Cause like I said, a lot of people come off the hard, the hard drugs, but

And then just smoke weed, which obviously is damage control. It's a lot better. But then there's like Las Vegas sober. It's like, I don't do hard drugs. I just smoke meth. Or Miami sober. I don't do hard drugs. I just snort blow. So like, where's the line drawn here, right? So it's just best where I stay off it. And then me and those same three group of guys, we...

uh we're starting to go we're actually i gotta go do the train actually on monday i gotta go get fingerprinted and then we gotta start the training we're going into the central florida reception center so now we're actually going into the prison prison to like run a recovery meeting on sundays that's awesome so like we all hang out or whatever and then um you know uh so we're chilling man and then uh my partner so we're married we have a son now um she has like a following on tiktok you know what i mean she's she's like a so my daughter has autism

And like, she's like an autistic, like autism mom, like that's her niche genre, whatever. She does real well. And then she, she is in this program where we create like UGC ads for like social media. Yeah, I've heard of that. So like we do that. And then I work for, during the busy season, I work for like a fucking kayak company.

So like I take people out and show them like manatees and dolphins. You ever seen the glowing blue water? The dino flash, the bioluminescent water? Like you paddle in the water and it all illuminates from these organisms in there. That's so cool.

And I'm just staying clean, man. And, you know, honestly, I wanted to get more involved in like social media and stuff, but like I'm kind of like naturally a shy guy. Well, this is a great first step into it. Yeah, that's why I was like, you know, he's putting the apple on the cake for me. Yeah, I wanted to thank you for your word, man. You've been rolling. You've been rocking and rolling. You did really well. Yeah, thank you. I'm sorry if I strayed off there. No, no, no. You did good sometimes because my style is letting the person talk. So you'll share stories. Yeah.

thinking that you're rambling, but it's a part of that period of time, you know, it's, you're still going along the timeline. Now, if you were talking about like your childhood, then that would be random rambling. If we were, you know, talking about your time and, and, uh, and New Zealand or something, you know, if the pieces are mixed up, um, what do you think is the biggest lesson you want to get off to people today from hearing your story? I mean, like it comes back to like,

when I was younger and like making it through the juvenile system, right. You know, don't hang out with them people. Don't, you know, don't do them drugs because your life will end up like this. Right. Like if you're anything like me, like that's going to roll right over your head. You can't, you know what I mean? If you're hardheaded, you're going to do it. I'm I, if I'm hard at it, I'm going to do it. I don't care what you're saying. So I can sit here and be like, don't do hard drugs, you know, stay away from them people. But at the end of the day, if they're on drugs or if they want to hang out with the people, they're going to fucking do it where they go. So, I mean, one thing, the piece way that there is hope, right.

You know what I mean? Like, and, and, and hope from a lot of like, you know, there's, we could go away on this, but at least from my step from recovery. So like there's hope, dude, I've seen the guy with team recovery, you know, I mean, I'm not gonna put his pocketbook out there, but I'm sure he's doing well financially. He, you know, it's been multiple rehabs. He used to live on the street, junkie arrested. I've seen, you know, 50 year olds that destroyed the whole life of crack cocaine, go and get educations, PhDs and, and,

And master's degrees. I've seen people start businesses and get their kids back and change their life around. So you get anything out of it, like no matter how far. And I haven't even been like I said it from the beginning. I'm not an ecstasy kingpin. I'm not 1090, 1090 Jake's fucking prison warrior. Like I'm just like a humble dude being like there's there's people a lot lower than me.

that have been a lot lower than me that have found their way out too. So, I mean. But that's what makes it relatable, you know? It's relatable to the average person that's been in your shoes because there's a lot of you. Yeah. So, don't, don't, uh, decredit yourself for that, you know? I was around, I was around Timothy because you have, you've had some like heavy, in this seat right here, right? Yeah, but you know, um, sometimes people, the audience doesn't like the heavy hitters as much though too because that's not relatable, you know? But it's interesting to people but relatable, not as much, you know? It's more, it's,

People want the not so famous on social media average everyday people sharing their story, which is what you did today. And you did a great job doing it. Thank you. Don't tear me up in the comments too much, please. I don't think you gave people a reason to. Now, if you came here and said you were an ecstasy kingpin...

That would be a little bit different. I won't go there. I've read those comments. Well, you get that across on a lot of people's stories. That comes with it. But you need the negative comments to fuel the engagement. Yeah, of course. You know, to get the views too. But Chris, thanks so much for coming today, man. Thank you, man. It was a pleasure to speak to you today. And, you know, best of luck with everything and have fun in the city with your family. Thanks, man.