Amad derby ending: Manchester Red again
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Tunneley kick. Really, really clever from Hamad. Bruno Fernandes may have dug out the reds and now there's nothing between them on derby day. Martinez, Hamad through the middle, he's got a touch on it. In the 19th minute. Hamad, what have you just done?

This is Talk of the Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. Here we are inside the Etihad after Manchester United quite incredibly have won the Manchester derby. 1-0 down.

to come back and win 2-1. It doesn't get much better than that, does it? We'll pour over every single detail of exactly what Amad did in that game to turn things around, assess United's performance and also talk, of course, about the big decision that Ruben Amri made to leave out Marcus Rashford and Alejandro Garnaccio from the squad. We might also have a flick of a preview to the Spurs' League Cup tie, but Thursday feels a long way away.

I'm here with Andy Mithson and Karl Anka, Laurie's going to join us shortly. Andy, it doesn't get any better than that, does it? It's brilliant, mate, it's brilliant. I just laughed downstairs because one of the former footballers doesn't know who you support and he's like, you're United or City and you'll smile because you're being super professional here.

It was a fantastic end to a game which wasn't fantastic. I couldn't see it coming at all, but I did think United got better in the second half. They did create chances. Bruno had that chance where he dinked it just wide. We can pour over the performances. I've just had a chat with Manuel Garte for five minutes in Spanish and he's buzzing and he's happy living here.

The mood is utterly different to five minutes before the end of the game when I was about to tweet, this is the first time since December 2015 that United have lost three consecutive league games. Remember under Louis van Gaal?

And I never tweeted that because I waited for Bruno to bang that penalty in. The United end, 3,000 split over three tiers, just absolutely bouncing. Every song was going up and down in there. We've seen our little flag which popped out in the Czech Republic the other night, the one with 115, 3,007, 192 on it. We live for moments like this.

I didn't enjoy it. I'm too tense. I just didn't enjoy it. Even the goals. Well, it was a bit rubbish as well, the game to be fair. Yeah, it was. I mean, even sat in the press box, I'm surrounded by City fans. You can't do anything. At some point this week, I'm just going to break down and it's just all going to come out. I just feel like totally tightly bound and wound up and really envious that I've not been in that way and...

where they're singing to Casey and the Sunshine Binds. Ruben, I'm a ring, I'm a ring. I can tell you're excited because the podcast has been going for nearly two minutes and no one else has said a word yet. Speak to the boys. Carl.

Actually, I'll just throw it to Laurie. Laurie, what did I do when the winner went in? Oh, Laurie's here. Hi, Laurie. Hello. You did a Jamie Carragher on Thierry Henry. You gripped my thigh. And it was a very pleasant experience. It enhanced. It was a full sensory experience that I got. I got the sight of the players celebrating the corner flag. I got the smell of piss boiling in the stands with the City fans. And then I got the touch of, yeah, you on my thigh. I couldn't, you know, properly punch the air and everything. So under the table, I sort of

gripping Laurie Stuyker's "Ahh, boys!" That was good. That's a great ending, wasn't it? Ho ho ho ho ho ho! Ooh, that's sweet! This isn't going to be any analysis from Carl, it's just going to be different noises. Yeah, he's getting good at making good noises just lately, analytical noises.

Yeah, I mean the game itself was one of the worst Manchester derbies that I've seen in recent times. I mean, I can't believe City were as passive as they were during that game. I can't believe that United dominated the ball so much without creating a great deal. I have never seen a man wave his arm so much about getting the ball forward as Ruben Ameren did in that second half as he watched players pass the ball sideways.

and backwards but it almost doesn't matter now does it I don't know does it matter Karl? 84th minute Jack Grealish has the ball down and a corner flag and it sort of bounces and ricochets off a defender and it goes out for a corner kick and Amarin's in he's crouched

Bielsa-like position and when this goes out for City corner he jumps up and he's furious and he's so angry and you can see that being the photograph and the headlights being written about how this was a really passive performance because you're right that was a weird Manchester derby normally the last five or six of them you watch City dominate possession and United are trying to play on the break they're trying to play on the counter whereas what you got was a City team that are frankly

average looking. They're lacking confidence massively aren't they? Massively. And a United team who are not trying to play on the break. There were two or three times particularly in the first half where United were trying to play down one wing realised it wasn't on and the path was blocked off and you could see Ahmad and Fernandes just pointing to teammates saying

go back home, go back home and then circulate again which is sensible football but also normally in a derby you're not meant to play sensible you want to be angry and get at them blood and thunder innit right so that first half in particular felt really weird and then you get the goal and you're going oh have United spurned what could have been a very good chance to win a derby but hey

That was good. Before we spiral into assessing the 86 minutes, was it 86 minutes? 88. 88 minutes. Oh, it's even later. Probably 86 when it was given, but by the time it got took, it was 88 minutes. Before we spiral into assessing even how long it was before Manchester United started scoring in that game, can we just talk about Ahmad Lloris? I mean, we have praised him on this podcast, haven't we, a few times already this season. He's been a real bright spark for United.

He's had his moment with that winner in extra time against Liverpool, but we're never going to forget the way this match finished and he won't, will he? I don't think he's stopped celebrating yet, actually. Well, I loved how there was a queue of teammates waiting to lift him up with a bear hug. I think that shows, obviously, that they're all happy that he scored this incredible winner at the Etihad, but I think it probably shows a bit more deeper affection for him as well. And I think it also speaks to the point that Ruben Amor might be trying to make with...

Marcus Rashford being out of the squad. Don't go into that just yet. We'll talk about it later. I know, I know. I'm just sort of touching it, just teasing it. Don't make too many suggestions just yet. I promise you, that's all I'm flirting with at the moment. And Alejandro Garnaccio. There's a part on those two. Okay. And I think that that just...

emphasised don't give up a lost cause do you running on the pitch he's shown that hasn't he the Everton game showed he really enjoys that part of the game out of possession sort of harrying defenders I think he did one with Guardiola actually earlier that I thought oh actually this looks like a cup and he didn't quite get it but yeah I just think it's a really interesting sort of reflection to have on how he came to United as well now I mean I would still always

believe that that kind of price tag for a player that played three games is too much but if he continues like this if they get him signed to a new contract and he stays at United for a long time and scores more goals like this then you'd look at you know 39 million as bargain well done has he got to 39 million yet we need to find this out how much have United actually paid for him I was pretty sure it was 37

It was 18 plus 19, that's 37, you're right. 37? I love what Matthew was saying the other day. Was there a Manchester derby winner clause in that deal with Atalanta, Andy? I don't know. I know who did the deal, so I will send him a message after this and find out. And I know that I did a big piece for The Athletic on how he came to United. That would have been in April. There's loads of detail in there, such as when he went to the British Embassy in Rome

he sent pictures through like I've got my work visa I can come I can come and destroy Manchester City in future derbies trust me it'll be a little bit of a bumpy ride until I get to that point I'll be going to Sunderland I'll be going to Scotland but the wait's been worth it it's really exciting um

Still not there as in the complete play because he's very young. But if you're saying who's Man United's player of the season so far, in a crap season, let's be honest, he's one of a few. I'm really happy with him. He gets it for that first touch, doesn't he? Yeah. First touch for that second goal. I mean, the way he responded to then stick it in

What Radial's trying to do back-heeling off the line, I have no idea, but who cares about that? The thing I really like about Ahmad is he does have the good first touch, which a lot of United players do, but he also has the moment where he doesn't go, hey, I did a good first touch. Let me whack it as hard as possible. We'll play really, really quick. It is the ability in those really, really frantic moments to have an extra second. So once he rounds Edison for the penalty decision, he's angling for a better shot. He's not immediately going, I'm going to whack this as hard as possible. And then he just senses Nunez coming towards him at Walden.

Follow me. Basically, there are many United players in the last however many months who rounds the keeper and then with their weak shot has a shot without properly looking up and Ahmad has his head up. Ahmad wriggles through a defender and is in that final third and he has his head up.

It wasn't a great first half performance, he was offside three times. Yeah, and he shot wide didn't he as well, after like 15 minutes down this end. But he was still one of the frets, you need a fret in these games. I like he can turn in really small spaces as well, that's what I like about him. You put him in a Spanish car park, there's no issue for him, he could just do it. And to do it in a Manchester derby, fantastic. You know now it's the total switch, is he going to sign a new contract and all that? And part of me feels just enjoy the moment.

What was that post-match press conference question on Ahmad, was it? It was interesting. No, it wasn't about contract. No, it was just about his performance. And actually, Amrin's response was kind of, let's not get too carried away. It was a bit Eric Ten Hag-esque, you know, in terms of we've done it before, got too excited about young players. I mean, Ahmad's been at the club four years now, so you kind of think you can get a little bit excited about this kid. But yeah, so that was interesting on reflection. I don't know if Amrin's kind of just making sure that there's not too much...

hyped jubilation around it because obviously he saw it all coming anyway he said well exactly you know well we don't talk about the selection yet no no second part second part he's not the only person that walked around Carrington and went this mad guy's pretty good we've already given you flowers on that you're not having it again

But I would say that, to Karl's point about the two different moments, I thought he'd missed the chance when he didn't score straight away. And actually Nunes was trying to retone and just got it terribly wrong. But he got his foot in front of him as well to win the penalty. And then for the second one, he was like, right, I'm going to take this myself. So I liked how it was two very similar situations, but different outcomes. You three, honestly, it's like watching Hungry Hippos. You know that game where the mouths come forward and grab the balls. They're all very excited. They all want the microphone. This is great. Andy, what were you going to say?

No, I'm just happy. I loved it how the goals were right in front of the City are called out on that end and they're just bouncing. The celebration. It showed you, didn't it?

And then you look to the other end and you just saw this wall of moodiness because no one really wears colours for the derby. And I walked to the game and this fella came up behind me and he goes, all right, you red bastard. And I looked round and he looked a lot harder than I did and he was a Salford fan from... City fan from Salford. I ended up speaking to him for 10 minutes and he was absolutely sound. I really...

respected him as a football fan I know you might be expecting me to hammer him but we've got to be pretty hard being a City fan in Salford he said I was the only one and he literally like I was not the only one in my class the only one in my school

and I really enjoyed talking to him. Shame you didn't see him after. To be fair to him, he said, I think it'll be 2-2 today, and I said, have you seen how bad we are? And he said, no, have you seen how bad we are? So we're having this race to the bottom. No, no, we're really bad. And both teams were pretty bad. I thought United, tactically, they moved the ball to the edge of the penalty area. And then just passed it back again. And passed it about. And the goal there, you're allowed to have a go at it.

Did you expect United to be better on the ball, Laurie?

No, not really, because I think the team selected was kind of more defence orientated. So, you know, usually Amarillo's picked a kind of a more attacking wing back in Ahmad and then a more defensive one on the other side. And this time he's gone for two defensive ones. So I feel like that was part of the plan just to kind of keep it, you know, consolidated for the time being. I mean, City were really bad. I was surprised. I know I've seen them lose quite a lot recently, but I was surprised at how they kind of had nothing really. I mean, the goal was a bit...

fluky for them really it's annoying another Ahmad assist another Ahmad assist what spin he put on the ball there as well another corner conceded though by the way so that's an issue that they need to amend I know it was a bit of a strange one how it came about but I don't know I felt like they were actually pretty good in possession just that killer edge wasn't it it was just that fact and to Carl's point the offside from Ahmad they were the keys to try and actually get ahead but it was kind of what I expected really before the goals quite a noise when Mason Mount went down injured yeah

Poor Mason, by the way. He can't catch a break, can he? It's really, really unfortunate. And I think quite a few United fans watching at home or in the ground thought Mount's down. Whatever game plan was, goes with it. Earlier in the season, it seemed like so many of United's pressing schemes on the Ten Hag revolved around Mount and someone else joining the press. The change-up, Maynouin pushing Fernandes further forward may have helped in terms of you push Fernandes into his better role, but also you do lose that...

big pinging counter-attacking ball that Fernandes likes to do so often. Andy's totally right. There were times where they get right in front of me in the area and you're almost waiting for Fernandes to whack it as hard as possible to go for top bins. The fact they weren't doing it makes it feel like Amaran was very much telling them you don't force it unless it's on. I think

defensively you can see the shape now and it feels like it's quite well established and actually I know United at the minute seems to be conceding either sloppy goals or set-piece goals but in open play generally speaking there seems to be a real solidity to the set-up and it feels like everyone knows the roles in that

But then further forward in those attacking positions, it still feels like a very early work in progress. And I wonder how much of Amarin's coaching has focused on getting that defensive part right. And now is the time, you know, he's not got much time, but now is the time to be able to finesse the bits further forward. Today helps give a confidence boost to people that they can win.

at a place like this no matter the form that City are in. His confidence and it's still very early days he's integrating not just with the players but he's brought a whole coaching staff in they've got to learn to work with new work colleagues and the injury situation has got better and with you on mount the players look really good for him. They did didn't they? Yeah he's marked that wasn't he? Also he went down do you see when Kyle Walker went down in the first half? I think he went down as if someone launched an intercontinental ballistic missile at his head.

Did he not get teased? Rasmus Euland went near him and Kyle Walker is a hard lad from a hard city in Sheffield and I spoke to him after the cup final and I thought he spoke brilliantly. I've got a bit of respect for him but when I saw that I'm just thinking are we setting up a GoFundMe page for him to help him get through the trauma? My word. What do you think then? Do you think

there should be more expected of United in an attacking sense or because it is so early in his time in charge we have to be patient to be able to see that come through. I just think that the

the quality that they've got there at the moment it's not like they've got players there that have been doing the business for years and years I've touched on it again but the one person that scored the most goals for United wasn't in the squad so you have a situation here where you're kind of trying things out to see what works nicely I mean it

But Hoyland's ball to Fernandes for that chance was a beautiful little bit of play. And you're thinking Bruno going slot that way, it sort of looked like it was going in from our perspective and then obviously it was never going in, just sort of drifted away. And you think that's the moment. Is that the moment gone? Yeah, definitely. Because United were in it. You could tell that they were in it. And that's the difference...

that Amarin said about the Arsenal game where he felt that they did pretty well in possession for that one but they didn't have the belief to actually go and whereas they had the belief and I don't know whether that's well that will give them more belief the way that finished as well won't it moving forward that's it I don't know whether it was the way they were playing themselves and the few more days of training they've had with Amarin or whether it was because they could sense that City were weak and whereas they didn't quite feel that with Arsenal but either way he said the belief was there and that's such a huge thing at this stage of what he's hoping is going to be a successful tenure

Obviously, there's a lot of new players in this team. I mean, the team that lined up for United today at the start of the game, only three of those players started the Manchester derby at the Etihad last season. That's Onana, Dalot and Bruno Fernandes. So that shows the difference. But across the board, the club have just not won these sort of games. That's the first big six team United have beaten away from home since 2021. So you can understand why they're lacking players.

in belief that they can go and win these sort of matches yeah you fried my head with that stat yes I totally agree in terms of the belief is coming I also think when we talk about this idea that Amarin is trying to communicate I think the fact that they've won now and it's not the hunker down and counter punch will help

I think in terms of how you improve the attack. Was that not a counterpunch at the end? Did we not classify that as a counterpunch? No, mate, that's just good. 52% versus 48% possession. Just good build-up, mate. In the second half? Overall, I think. Really? United had more of the ball? No, in favour of City, but it was good to see, yeah. But we've been... I did that piece for The Athletic yesterday where Oli talks about an average of 35% in the free win. So 35% to 48%.

There was ambition on the ball. There was some good stuff in play. I was impressed by Ugarte. Ugarte's getting better and better in the United shirt. Him working on the hammering, I think it's going to get a lot more out of him than perhaps I personally was afraid of at the start of the season. Oh look, that just popped through about Ugarte. So I just spoke to Ugarte in Spanish and I sent this to Forlan because he knows him well, but he loves it. And Forlan's just sent back

That's my man. This is live front page news coming at you now while we do this podcast. It's great to see a young lad, prime of his life, smashing it in the Manchester derby. Can I just add to the stat as well because I've just gone through my stat pack and found the section. Manchester United...

before today had failed to win any of their previous 15 Premier League away games against the traditional big six teams their last such win was a 3-0 win at Tottenham in October 2021 with the pensioner front line of Ronaldo and Cavani they had won they had won four points from a possible 45 in those games since that's the obvious thing you need to improve I also think when we talk about how does Amarant get this attack to work better

you're going to need to get more players who can go on the outside especially and this is why Ahmad is shining right now compared to quite a few of these other players he's one of a handful of players that can best their man on the outside and can also reliably deliver a cross and a pass in the final third Dalo bless him

decent gaming phases. There were two or three times where his final ball was shaky. He spoke very well in the mix zone. There'll be quotes coming out on Monday and the Tony struck in the mix zone quotes was really positive and really good about what needs to come next for this team. And I think that's also good. Wins like this and the things that Amron seems to be talking about in the press conference and on the training ground, there is an understanding that where they are and where they want to be, there's a gap, but...

You make up that gap by grafting. You look at that team and there's at least four or five players in that team that you are willing to graft. And that hasn't always been the case at United.

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Right, Laurie's done his best to tease it, but I think it's about time we talked about the decision to leave Marcus Rashford and Alejandro Garnaccio out of the matchday squad today for the Manchester derby. Ruben Amorim said before the game that it was not about the players being injured, that actually both of them had trained at Carrington this morning. He'd been there to witness that as well, but it was more about...

observing their behaviour around their teammates, their performances in matches and in training. And the general feel even went as deep as saying he assesses how people get dressed in the morning and how they interact with their teammates. Laurie, what do you make of this?

I think it's a huge story personally. I mean, he was trying afterwards to say that it's a new game next week and they're back in contention and, you know, it's just one of those things that you make a decision on in this particular moment. But I do feel it speaks to a lot about the kind of... There's the champagne bottles coming from the away dressing room just going past. Yeah, indeed.

We should nick one of them, shouldn't we? I feel like what it speaks to is how he wants to be as a manager. And I think that's why I think it is important that they won today. I know he said afterwards that it wasn't. Either way, it's kind of how he sets out his stall. It's crucial to underline the decision, isn't it? I think so. I think he has to say that. But I think ultimately, just for the players to go, OK, fair enough, maybe this guy has got something. Maybe I should listen to what he's saying. I'm fascinated to know exactly what's gone on because we've heard...

It was only in January, wasn't it, this year, that Marcus Rashford was dropped after a night out in Belfast. And that was a real low point, I think, for him. And I think that is something that you want to question. Is he acting right outside of the game? I mean, Amarin says it's not a disciplinary issue, but you just sort of wonder, does that allow for...

you know, behaviour outside the pitch that then he sees in training maybe not being at the top of his game. I don't know the situation with Alejandro Garnaccio, but it's interesting, isn't it? Both of them at the same time because you sort of think,

you know, is that kind of protecting both of them so that it's both, it's two people rather than just one because you mentioned Johnny Evans after the game, you know, he's done everything right and he's on. So you've done wrong. No, no, sorry, the opposite. What are you saying? Don't worry. Can't talk about Johnny like that. Sorry, sorry, sorry. I should have. And he's here, look, he's staring you out already, he's edging forward.

It's like Rasmus Hoyland and Kyle Walker all over again. Have you seen his Instagram post, by the way, of Rasmus Hoyland? He's very good. Well, I don't know. He's sort of made a play out of it, a bit of Roses in Red, Violets in Blue. The Oscar goes to Kyle Walker, basically. He's funny. Yeah. Well, is that him? Surely he's not doing that in the dressing room, is he? Surely that's part of his team. Anyway, the point about Jonny Evans, sorry, was that he's done everything right and he's not in the team. So, you know, it's kind of, I just take...

decisions based on what I'm seeing in training. But I think it's really fascinating because two big names, two players that you thought could have done a job at City, but I do think there's more to come, you feel like, from this kind of situation. At 1-0 down, with United trying to find a way back into that game, how Amarim would have loved to look down the touchline and see Rashford and Garnaccio warming up, but obviously the decision he made was about far more than today. It helps that United won, but fundamentally...

making the decision, making the statement, going quite a way to explain it in his media as well. He could have quite easily just shut it down, similar to what Eric Ten Hag tried to do with Jadon Sancho and then obviously he explained further after Sancho had then posted on social media. So what do you think about the decision? It sends a very clear message to every player that I am in charge and you play here.

under my rules and if you don't you're not going to be playing football the thing that you love most I will deprive you of doing that

And I'm looking at every area of your life. I'm looking at the people who are around you in your life. I'm looking at what you're doing in your life. And I'm acting on the information that I have to do what is best for Manchester United Football Club. And when I said a few weeks ago it's a complex dressing room, I meant that. I was well sourced when I said that. And several managers have tangled to try and get

power and control of the dressing room and I don't think he's really put a foot wrong I don't think Eric Ten Hag did either the first six months we complimented him on that he had some very difficult and far more serious issues if we're being honest than Ruben Amarin has had but he's the boss it's pretty clear isn't it you know you are an elite athlete

and you behave like an elite athlete and your entire conduct, be it how you are judged publicly, what you're doing, who you're talking to, is going to be scrutinised. The thing as well, Kyle, it's brave to do it at all, but it's particularly brave to do it on an occasion like this. It is, which probably underlines why he's done it. You talk about Eric Ten Hag and Jadon Sancho. I think Ten Hogs.

came across not in a great place in that press conference when he explained what's going on with Jadon Sancho because Arsenal beat him 3-1. What not. The fact that he's made that call, they've won now, they've won in a way that isn't the typical way Manchester United beat Manchester City as well. It sends a message with both Garnaccio and Marcus Rashford. Whatever they have done in training that isn't to Amarant's standards, Amarant is well within his rights to go, okay, it is a Manchester derby, why aren't you at the races? And

That is concerning. It's concerning that we're talking about two academy developed players, two players that have in the past scored big goals against Manchester City and yet have performed in a way at Carrington on training that isn't to the manager's standards, isn't to the head coach's standards. I often go back to a quote from Pochettino where he says a contract gives you the ability to train and then everything else comes after that. And if...

If you're an academy player, developed player from Manchester United, and you cannot get yourself up to train to the level required to play Manchester City away, something's going on. And I hope whatever is going on with both of these players, they can find a way to go through it, and we can talk about what...

the club needs to set and say, we need to do this, this, this, and this, and this, and we're going to provide this for you. But ultimately, both of those players need to take care of things themselves. Whatever hell you're going through, you have to be the person to get yourself out of it. And I hope both these players do. I'm sure more information will come to light throughout the week, but at halftime, it was a very disappointing tone, whereas at full-time, we can be a bit more positive about this. And I think the result now

means Amram can turn around to both these players and go, do you understand what's needed? And hopefully both these players can say yes and we can move forward. Yeah, because from their perspective, Laurie, as well, I'm sure both of them would have wanted to be involved today, no matter what the situation is. They'll both feel like they've missed out on something there, won't they? So, you know, even that in itself is a bit of a stick to get them back firing and back to whatever the issue is. That's the thing. It's hard to understand exactly the situation because you don't know what the specific problem is. But what do you think happens next?

Well, I suppose they're in training, right? I mean, they trained today, which feels unusual. But then again, players that aren't picked often do train. It's unusual for the manager to be there, I would think, especially before an away game. But that's interesting. Well, I suppose he's only had to come down the road for this one at least. Well, that's true, yeah. Oh no, the cram line gets busy. But I mean, is that a bit inclusive of him? So he's there to sort of show to them,

I'm doing this with you as well. Also, I'm watching you here. You better actually subscribe to what I'm preaching. Bit of both, isn't it? Potentially, yeah. He's been a player recently, Amir, so you feel like he can tap into that quite well, I think.

But yeah, it's going to be fascinating to see the reaction. That was my thought a little bit when I was seeing the celebration that went on for a long time. They really soaked it up. That man's still going down there, I think, somewhere. He's just spelling United on the badge now. I can see him there. There he is. Ugarte was really loving it, wasn't he? Bruno just stood there soaking it up.

and I'm just thinking if you know Rashford he scored winners in this game you know he knows what it's like to have that feeling so is he watching that thinking I'd love that buzz back is that something that kind of just makes him do whatever he needs to be doing that Amarim wants him to do it's not too long ago that Garnaccio

was getting the goalhead goal in the FA Cup final. He scored in the last two derbies, didn't he? He scored at Old Trafford as well. These are two players that have in the past got up for it. Oh no, it's a community shield, wasn't it? Not Old Trafford, sorry. These are games where these two in particular have got up for it at times where the fan base has gone, oh, I don't know about today. And if they can't for this one, that is concerning. But also, like you say, Laurie, there is something about Aramund, the way he speaks, that does give me confidence that he will be able to

make an effort and be willing to try things that perhaps other managers may not have understood in the past. Amren's very first press conference he talked about, he was compared to Mourinho and he said Mourinho came to, he was asked about Mourinho first coming to Chelsea in 2004 and he said, I know you want to compare me to Mourinho but you have to understand when Mourinho walked into Chelsea he was a European title winner and there were players like Frank Lampard. There is an old quote from 2017 when Mourinho was the United manager and he said, 23-year-olds nowadays are not like the 23-year-olds back in the day.

Lampard and others were like men whereas nowadays 23 year olds are babies. That was basically Marino saying "Paul Pogba, I hate him so much." What I've seen so far, Amarin doesn't strike me as someone who's going to do that yet. And I'm hoping there is something about the Amarin tactics, charisma, confidence that can press the right buttons

in some of these younger players that perhaps other managers in the past haven't got to the same consistent level I'm not going to disparage Ole Gunnar Solskjaer here I think Ole was particularly very very good at getting a lot of these United players to get a tune out of him and I think Amron might be another one to do that too

Just on that point, actually, Carl, in the press conference afterwards, Amarin said, we've tried lots of things with Rash previously, they haven't worked, let's try something different, which said one thing about what he's trying to do here in this moment, but also suggested to me that he's spoken to people at the club that have been here obviously longer than him, because he's only been here. They'll understand the issue, he's gone on longer than his time in charge, yeah. And maybe some executives, you know, like, you're sort of thinking, a call like this, I mean, maybe he just takes it and then they figure out afterwards, okay, he's done this, but...

it felt maybe a bit more inclusive that he's had those kind of conversations before doing it I don't know yeah would you think he would have spoken to elements of the leadership before making that decision because it's a huge call to leave out two you know very talented players but very valuable players for United as well well I mean Jason Wilcox was sat in between today Brailsford and Sir Jim Ratcliffe today which I thought was maybe notable obviously Dan Ashworth has departed it feels like it's

Jason Wilcox will take up more of that kind of responsibility he's the one at the training ground every day watching training every day so I'd be amazed if he hadn't had a conversation with Ruben Amarin and Jason Wilcox between them about this kind of situation One of my mates sat with him Chris Lord how on earth has he got on here he sent me this picture and said he was hugging Dave Brailsford at the end just like a normal United fan

And that's the picture, so look how close he's sat. Yeah, that's Caldoon, even closer to him as well. He's obviously City's chairman. We'll get on to him and ask him exactly what they were saying and what their emotions were. Give us some news hound action. He's a well-connected lad here, but he did get a hug off the people at the end. Nice work, you can get it. You can turn the power off. Thank you.

You see, when people ask us, do you actually get chucked out of press boxes when you're recording these podcasts? Well, there's evidence. Someone's just switched the power off. Yeah, we do. You know, Paul McCartney's about to come on stage about 100 metres from here. You're really excited about this. He's old, mate. He's had his day. No one's interested. Who, me? Not you, no. It's a bit of a...

It's Paul McCartney, isn't it? It's the Beatles. There's still tickets about. So there's still tickets about, but everyone's very excited about it. You can get one if you wanted one. But I said to one of my mates who knows these things, he said, just put a Beatles CD on. So I might do that instead. He doesn't play any Beatles songs anyway. I saw him at Glastonbury Headline. Listen, people might hate me for this, but I was bored. Right, really? Yeah.

It's a three-hour set and I'm like, I'm shattered. If I walk past and one of the crafters outside is going, do you want a ticket for 50 quid? I would do it. Knowing that I'd be happy to walk out after an hour. Paul McCartney fans listening to this will be absolutely disgusted. I'm not a massive Paul McCartney fan. He's getting rave reviews as well. Anyway, let's talk about the football boys. Manchester United just beat City 2-1. Before you go and see Paul McCartney, we'll finish this podcast, yeah. Okay.

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Right, mini part. We need to talk about Manchester United in League Cup quarter-final action away at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium on Thursday. Tottenham, I can tell you, as we record this now, just after 8 o'clock on Sunday evening, are 5-0 up just into the second half away at Southampton. But, but, win the derby, go and win a cup quarter-final away against another top six side. That's the way to build on today, isn't it? Absolutely. And...

Tottenham are in a bit of a funk or have been in a bit of a funk for a while Michael Cox wrote an excellent piece ahead of this game against Southampton about how the matchup is two managers who are very adherent to a style of playing and unlikely to change I suppose that's one advantage for Ameren everyone knows Ameren's going to play a 3-4-3 and everyone knows that um

and he's passed the cog he's going to play in a certain way too so this will be interesting I also think well rotation again Xerxe up front ahead of Hoyland what are you making of this Laurie?

Yeah, can I just say that Carl's taken over hosting duties because Ian's gone off, I think, to plead for a little bit more time from the guys that are going to potentially kick us out very soon. I think that, yeah, I think he'll rotate. I mean, you might see Rashford and Garnaccio back in the starting line-up as a kind of point to say, listen, that was City, this is an ex-game, and it feels like, does he want to win this competition, though? It feels like a good competition to try and,

again sort of instill that belief in your players that what you're on is the right kind of path. I also think there's a lot of players who perhaps didn't start today that have a lot to offer in the other competition. Casemiro didn't start, Lenny Yorra didn't start which surprised me a little bit as well. I think they would have a lot to say against Donald Spur too. This is mildly promising isn't it? Sorry I just had to chase the media steward to see if we could have a little bit longer to do the podcast and I couldn't catch him. Quite quick for a media steward.

Yeah, that wasn't quick when they gave that penalty away, was it? What's it called? We're talking about Tottenham here. Where have you been? Right, sorry. Your head's in Paul McCartney already. No, I'm not. The League Cup is absolutely a competition. Manchester United should try and win because the Premier League's not going to be won. Is it not? Are you ruling that out now?

But we need to get in the top half first. Where are we now, by the way? Has anyone checked the table? Yeah, it's still bad. But it's like 11th or 12th or 13th. 13th? Exactly. But if you get a few wins, you can boom up. But Manchester United have been incapable of that, haven't they? So go for the League Cup. Toughish game. Big away following. London...

A lot of people up for it and then we get the same again a few weeks later at Arsenal in the FA Cup. Really tough game that, isn't it? To go and knock Arsenal out. Some people are getting a bit giddy here. And then Bournemouth at the weekend, they're a decent side. Bournemouth beat City. I can't believe how bad City have become. I'm really surprised. I know there's injuries but it's heartbreaking, isn't it? You're going to be alright? Yeah, I'm going to be absolutely fine. Pep Guardiola said they only had three centre-backs that would fit. Oh, the indignity of it all.

Yeah, I mean, this is how Eric Ten Hag felt all of last season, isn't it, really? This is the situation that you're in when you get a lot of injuries, I guess. Let's talk a little bit more about this Spurs game, Laurie. I mean...

Is it something that United need to push for as much as possible, a trophy in Amarim's first part of the season in charge? It obviously underlined the work that Ten Hag did in his first season. How important do you think it is, given his leadership and the fact that it does look like a longer game than a shorter turnaround for him? How important would it be, a piece of silverware? Yeah, I mean, we said this, didn't we, about Eric Ten Hag? And ultimately, the FA Cup for that in the second season wasn't...

it felt like it could have been a nice ending for him ultimately really in hindsight but certainly the Carabao Cup in his first season felt like it was the start of something and maybe that could be the case here I think it feels like the Champions League I was hopeful really at the start of the season and even after the

Everton game really and it's turned I'm sort of thinking yeah this squad's got issues and Amarine isn't afraid to try things to make people understand what he's after there are only five points off the top five you're still positive about potential champions okay I'm not saying I'm positive but I wouldn't rule it out yet I mean at half time I was sort of thinking relegation scrap I was like this is

I was thinking, one winning five now for Ameren, and you can see the pressure building already. And somebody said to me, what would constitute success this season? I said European football, any type of European football. But I did actually look at one point to see. There is a quite...

quite a big gap between Manchester United and 10 now, isn't it? Seven before the game, as pointed out by someone in the athletics section. Well, you know, only seventh to sixth. I'm not, I don't think it's worthwhile looking at a league table just yet. The League Cup quarterfinal does offer an opportunity to

qualify for Europe? I think Bayern's more important. I know trophies are nice and ten Hagel tell you two in two years, but the main goal between now and the end of the season for Amund, I think, is figuring out who's up for the scrap.

figuring out what roles you need to plug in next and making sure the players that are up for scrap genuinely believe that what they're doing will eventually take them to where they need to go where they get in the mitt and stand the quality season after season after season after season it's are you willing to run through a brick wall for what he wants to do and if the answer is no well we'll figure out what happens next we're not that far from January

What are you talking about? Transfer market? Ah, well there's not really any money to spend is there? No. No, but if you start selling players... The stock of these players isn't really high. Real Madrid ain't flying into Manchester airport tomorrow to buy too many of these players. Can I have Johnny Evans? He costs £250 million mate. Yeah, I hope Johnny keeps playing.

I think it's still tricky for Manchester United and we're all on a buzz at the moment, but the league table is still very sobering. What United have got to do, which they've been unable to do so far this season, is go like seven, eight, nine, ten games unbeaten, pick up some real points. There was that little movement when Rudra Nistaroy was manager, but they were all home games. They were all pretty winnable. I remember when he got the job for four games, somebody saying to me, I'm glad he's got the four because he can just balance things out a little bit.

and Ruben's got to do the same. There's not been a great month this season as of so far.

No. That was a very abrupt final word. Final word. I mean, Amarin has won cup competitions in Portugal sort of every year, I think. And so clearly he enjoys maybe knockout competitions and wants to, you know, with something at the end of it. I feel like it'll be more rotation, right, for the Spurs game. So we'll see what kind of team can be put out there. But yeah, it just feels a lot more positive than it did

because three defeats in the Premier League in a row would have been quite stark. I think it wasn't until the end of Rangnick, the start of Ten Hag's reign, when there was four games, two between them over a season, that that has been the negative sequence. So, yeah, really, really important, huge comeback win. Definitely.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that. It's always nice to debrief after a Manchester United win, particularly at the Etihad Stadium. Karl's got his hand up. Final, final, final word. Always taking the mic as well. This is the last game of 2024. We're all four of us going to be in the stadium together. And I just want to say, gentlemen, it's been a pleasure. I know this has been a very chaotic calendar year and there have been some bad results and some chaos and nonsense. But getting to watch football with you

all of you has been one of the great pleasures of my life and I'm very honoured to call you all my friend it's not over it's good you know 2024 it's going to turn into 2025 and we'll do it all again yeah but you gotta give people their flowers while they can still smell them so boys I really enjoy this and listeners I've also enjoyed yabbing along to you sorry I've talked too much this episode

Bless you, mate. Gives a handshake. Laurie, thank you. Kyle, thank you. Andy's already gone on to his next thing. Can't keep a freelancer down, can you? Thank you, Andy. And thank you for listening as well. I echo Kyle's sentiments. It's been brilliant doing this podcast across this year. Don't worry, we're going to be back in a few days' time after that Tottenham League Cup tie. And let's hope we've got another Manchester United win to digest. Thanks for listening. See you on the next one. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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