Amorim upset by "lack of urgency" in defeat
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This is Talk of the Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. We are back to talk about the 17th Premier League defeat of Manchester United's glorious domestic campaign that very nearly had United 17th in the table as well. That might still come to be fair with the matches left.

in this campaign. We'll go over all the details of that. It's also probably the angriest that Ruben Amarin has been as he set out the stall for the summer of change that could be ahead for Manchester United. And we'll also find some time to preview a doubleheader against Chelsea this weekend in London. Andy Mitten and Karl Anker are here. Karl, you were there. Couldn't have gone much worse, really, could it? That was dreadful, honestly. Manchester United playing accidental football

for the majority of the first half not a thriller and then once West Ham get a second goal there's not much there it's really concerning not just for trying to build momentum for the Europa League final but also just in terms of the wider issue of what Manchester United are trying to do and how they go about winning games because at the moment United are

It's hard to shake the feeling that this team is just going through the motions and trying to win Premier League games by default. They've not won a Premier League game since the 3-0 victory over Leicester City before the March international break. They've not beaten a team that's going to be in the Premier League...

since late January which was the 1-0 win over Fulham and that was a game that again was pretty poor and the winning goal comes from a deflected shot from a Sandro Martinez I know we talk about moderates and I know we talk about wanting to support the manager but like I said on Thursday in Old Trafford I said my working title for my match piece was it's okay to think this isn't good enough that wasn't good enough on Sunday not by a long way no

We've joked a little bit about the Premier League fixtures in recent times, Andy. Jason summed it up really. He said, I've turned the TV off and gone to bed. I'm wondering why I bother with Premier League games this season. I know this game is meaningless to a point, but it's soul-destroying. I kind of know what he means because whether United finish 13th or 17th, it doesn't really matter. Neither of them are good enough.

But at the same time, it felt like yesterday did actually deepen people's concern about the direction that the team are heading in at the minute. Turning the TV off and go to bed. Yeah, I did the same. I wasn't there yesterday. I went to the Classico for work and I watched Manchester United play.

West Ham later on and you know when you get easily distracted because you've got a phone and another screen and you're watching it and you're trying to stay engaged and watch this game and it was really difficult that's the easy bit there's people traveled hundreds and thousands of miles to watch that game yesterday yeah it took a lot more than turning a television on well there's people who've traveled a short distance and been there for every single one of these games this season as well by the way yeah I know there's been a lot of them oh there's a lot of them and um

I did laugh last week. One of my mates who lives in Flickston moaning about how difficult it is to get to Old Trafford. I'm like, you're five miles away. Walk it. I said to get the bus up. No, I've not gone to bus since I've been 16. I'm not going to start now. I'm like, come on, you're just around the corner. I can't believe you're saying this.

I won't embarrass him anymore by putting his full name out there. To be fair, getting on a bus to go to a game has probably never felt harder than watching Manchester United in the Premier League this season for anyone, no matter where you are. I've done it loads this season. I really enjoy getting the bus. It reminds me of my childhood. £2 bus fares.

I know you know exactly what I'm like as it comes over the crest of Chester Road and you see Old Trafford there. I just think this is wonderful. And that view might disappear if the stadium goes or whatever, whatever. But I'm not getting sidetracked. Carl's absolutely right. It's horrendous. The league form is absolutely atrocious. This is relegation form.

Teams have gone down on what Manchester United have got in terms of points this season. More than? Yeah, it's the same old, another defeat, another game in which Manchester United struggle to score. Ten league wins all season with two to play. I think the last time United won fewer than that was 1930-31. So...

We keep getting these awful statistics. I love it that there's a but coming here. And the but is we've got a European final next week, which should give us a bit of a cheer. But this is the worst season in the league since the 73-74 relegation season. Worst winless run since 92. If I'm not mistaken, that's when, in desperation, Manchester United signed a man called Eric Cantona.

And it's absolutely awful. And what Ruben Amorim said after the game is quite right. If he cannot get a tune out of this team, if this team doesn't start winning next season, then he's got a fear for his job. But even then, it's the same old. We could have said the same thing.

exactly a year ago with Eric Ten Hag when Louis van Gaal was slightly different Solskjaer heading into the Europa League final it's almost exactly the same in a way exactly it is same old same old and we keep hearing cultural resets we've got to start again and the fans are like okay bring it on we know there's a big problem here and the managers have

spoken about massive cultural issues at Manchester United on a fairly consistent basis we keep hearing the same phrases get rid of the deadwood get rid of the negative influences and then you see a load of players going and think right everything's going to start picking up now and it just doesn't it's getting worse and worse and worse and the home form is

It's baffling that Manchester United are totally oversubscribed for season tickets. Demand still outweighs supply. They cannot have been watching. Another one of my mates, Grant, who's literally been all around the world watching Man United, didn't go for the cup yet.

Europa League ticket this year. Up to down. In his mind, I'm told this second hand, but if he's got a beef, he'll ring me up. He doesn't rate the Europa League. He's missed out on the only good part of the season. Imagine missing that Lyon game and all you've seen this season is basically... He's been going towards all these home defeats and missing out on the good performances in Europe, of which there have been several. But, whoa, it's atrocious. The league form is absolutely...

absolutely atrocious and deeply worrying fans are absolutely within their rights to question the manager the manager has had so much support absolutely yeah the thing there Carl Andy's mentioned it it does feel like history repeating itself we're headed into the 2021 Europa League final with there being some doubts over are they going to Solskjaer not to the extent that there is no no no I wouldn't have said but some doubt and basically he loses the final on penalties against Villarreal by the end of November the following season he's gone and

Eric Ten Haag, last season, headed into the FA Cup final, that glorious victory over Manchester City, backed in the summer, despite a bit of a search for a new manager that didn't play out brilliantly, certainly in terms of the metrics of how that all appeared for the club. And he's gone before the end of October. So,

If Amarin is to be backed, which I'm thinking he will be at this point, I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be, the club have to get this right this time because they can't afford to just rinse and repeat this cycle over and over again. But then...

There are the doubts about whether the team is heading in the right direction. And there are the comments by Ruben Amrin in that press conference yesterday, which is the angriest I've seen him, I think. I don't know what you thought. You were in the room. I was in the room. That was a simmering.

There were two or three times where there was once he was asked the question, do you think it's a culture problem? And he went, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. It's not culture. It's a feeling. So sort of the anger was so much, he gave the honest answer and immediately wheeled back and said, no, I don't want to use the word culture. I want to use the feeling. This feels, it feels a little bit like Manchester United losing 4-0 to Everton under Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Ole saying some of these players aren't going to be here.

Now, unfortunately for him, he probably didn't shift as many or didn't have the opportunity or the weight. Nearly all of them hung around a lot longer, to be fair. Some of them are still at the club now. A lot of them were still around in that starting lineup for when United lost sort of a couple of years later in a real bad 4-0 defeat to Brighton under Ralf Rangnick. I think this is also a problem in that...

Multiple Manchester United managers of the post-Ferguson era have made it very clear that there is something not quite right about how Manchester United play games of football, particularly when they're in these turbulent little runs. And Amrin said there's a feeling here, and he said he's not really concerned about the Europa League final, but he's more concerned about the feeling that Manchester United are no longer a big club. This team has lost 17 league matches this season.

Manchester United losing at home, or Manchester United losing, has gone from being a one-off event, a doomsday event, to something that has been quite mundane. And I know we've had reader emails saying, this is a meaningless game and I'm not really bothered if we finish 17th or finishing 13th. That's okay for you as a fan to think,

But I watched Manchester United play against West Ham and I went, how dare you, the football players, think it's okay to finish 17th rather than pushing to finish 13th? This isn't a question of, oh, there's not much on the line, but you should have a competitive edge. You should have some professional integrity because every time you cross that right line and play for Manchester United, particularly at Old Trafford, you should be trying to win a game. You should try and hate losing games.

which is something we've heard a number of former United players, I remember interviewing Louis Sarr and saying in the dressing room, they just hated losing at anything. And I watched United play against West Ham and went, you're not that bothered by losing here. You're not that annoyed that you're 1-0 down. Where's your bottle? This is not good enough. This is what Amrin said verbatim, Andy. So for me, the biggest concern is that the feeling that it's okay

we cannot change our position so much. So it's okay. That is the biggest problem in our club in this moment, because we are losing the feeling of we are a massive club and it's the end of the world to lose a game at home. I think that's the biggest concern. Um,

And like you said before, he also accepted that if things do not change and United look the same in the autumn, then it's time for other people to have a go at this, which he said he was referring to himself as well as some of the players. Yeah, the thing that really stood out, though, was...

we need to be brave in the summer. What do you think he meant? Making brave decisions, but in his mind, he's probably already made brave decisions by letting Marcus Rashford go out on loan by letting Anthony go out on loan. That will be how he sees it. Um,

Saying Manchester United are in danger of losing the status as a massive club, that's not really true. I don't think he said that exactly though. He was more of losing the feeling of being a massive club in terms of losing games being accepted. Andy, you use this term decent side. You say Fulham is a decent side or Brighton is a decent side. West Ham are not a decent side.

They had not won a Premier League game since February. I don't think they had to play particularly well to beat Manchester United yesterday. And I've seen multiple Premier League matches now where teams have not had to play particularly well to beat Manchester United. That's the nasty bit. What I was saying was Manchester United are a massive club.

but they are a failing club at the moment. And you get sneaky little indicators from all around the world of, I get mad reports of people teaching English in Chile. You see Manchester United, Manchester City shirts now, not Manchester United shirts. There's this gradual erosion of Manchester United status, but it's still a massive club.

But if he means a massive team, he's absolutely right. And you're right, Carl. West Ham had not won since February. They'd gone 8-8 unbeaten. Manchester United now 7 unbeaten. I said earlier the worst since 92. Manchester United actually won the league that year. They won the league in 92-93. That's what happened to them.

What, you might not win it this year? Oh, no. Look, it's appalling. You're talking about the players being brave. You can't get rid of the whole team. No. How many of them players who started yesterday or who have been starting would cover...

themselves in glory. I've spoken to Premier League managers this year who are far stronger in private than they would be in public when talking about how bad Manchester United are. A, because it'd make headline news. B, because it's not really none of their business. They actually can't believe how bad Manchester United are. One of them said to me, Bruno Fernandes is the only player who I would take to

from that team. This is from a club who Manchester United normally beat all the time, but don't anymore. So what is a brave summer? Bringing four players in, five players in, moving four or five on, because beyond that, it's actually quite difficult because these players have got contracts.

And then, what of the new players who come in? We all started this season feeling quite bright and chirpy. Sensible people in charge of football now. Proper football men in charge. People getting carried away after a 1-0 defeat against Fulham. The only team who Manchester United do beat in the league, but not the Cup. And then, how many of them have done well? Ugarte. I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago. Lovely lad. I'd love him to do well. He's clearly got something. But he was really, really poor against West Ham.

And he was really poor against Athletic Club as well. He was better the week before against Brentford. But if you're going to have a winning team, you've got to be good eight times out of ten. Not two times out of ten. It's just not good enough. And even us as journalists, we're picking up on the fragments of positivity that we had. X had a good game today. Hopefully he can kick on from that. Look at the league table. It's absolutely horrendous for Manchester United.

And I get sometimes little shoots of, you can see what they're trying to do. But again, Stu, Leicester City away, Fulham away. Or little pockets of play, five, ten minutes. The league table simply doesn't lie. And again, it can get worse. Manchester United can be relegated. These things can happen. I don't think it will. But I didn't think United would finish where they are this season. We put a little thing out over the weekend, didn't we? Predictions for this season.

Me and Laurie saying 4th, Carl saying 5th. We thought Carl was being negative at 5th. We thought Carl was being negative. Season before, me saying 3rd. 15th. Season before, me saying 3rd in public. Brian McLear, the former player, laughing at me. Not with me, at me. Going, what planet are you on? 7th if they're lucky. So, if we're doing the predictions for next year, OK, we get to August, we've got four shiny new players, everything's good and...

I'm hearing the same thing season after season. We've got rid of the dead wood now. Things are going to be better. You've got this idealized image of things improving, but it doesn't happen. What's your go-to drink before a flight? A West Coast IPA or Manhattan? Find the detail that moves you with local beer and craft cocktails at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club. Learn more at chase.com slash sapphirereserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDSE. Subject to credit approval.

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all for free at Aura.com slash safety. That's Aura.com slash safety to sign up and start protecting yourself and your loved ones. That's A-U-R-A dot com slash safety. Terms apply. Check the site for details. A lot of people have got in touch, so I feel I should read some of them out.

Because there's a very mixed opinion of exactly what's going on, really. I think everyone agrees it's not good enough, but in terms of the future direction and exactly what should be done from this point on, there's a lot of disagreement. So first up, John, I believe Amarin's post-match comments are about managing the players, which is a form of motivation. He hasn't tried this one yet, but if he leaves due to the players and their non-effort, I'm done.

Mark, I'm right behind Amarin, but these cheap defeats are so gutting despite the prospects of a Europa League final. It feels like a massive roulette throw. These late season defeats really, really hurt and it isn't okay! Nile, I know this team has issues, but it's still better than this current league position and that starting XI included a lot of players who should be suited.

to Amir in style. Greg, win or lose the final, this manager has to go. A billion pounds of purchases cannot fix this because this tiny handful of players on earth who can run this nonsense system are not enough. He has, without question...

being the worst Manchester United manager statistically in history and quite possibly the worst in Premier League history at this point. He's taken an already wavering and poor team and made them far, far worse in every area. Colin Glasner has openly banned any talk of a cup final and his players are reaping the benefits. They haven't taken the foot off the gas. They're playing for the right to wear the jersey mentality to be proud of. Meanwhile, in Manchester, the players limped to another defeat.

I could go on. There's more. In terms of Ameren making the team worse statistically, Carl, I think the comparison was 1.22 points per game in the Premier League got Eric Ten Hag the sack. And Ruben Ameren is on how many a game now? 0.96. Wow. So statistically they are...

worse statistically they're worse in every the only metric I can find that Ameren has improved Manchester United is they are slightly better at defending in open play in open play because set pieces are still hurdy-gurdies and whatnot yeah if you're a Manchester United fan and you are I'm done with Ameren or a Manchester United fan saying Ameren hasn't until Christmas these are

perfectly reasonable arguments to have. I will now mention something that I couldn't properly talk about on Thursday because it was embargoed, but something I picked up on throughout two or three of Amram's recent press conferences is he kept talking about the weaknesses in the squad. So after beating Leon, he said, you look at our squad and you can see we lack certain characteristics. And then after beating Athletic Club, he said, there are some weaknesses in there. And I asked him, well, could you elaborate on those? And he said, well,

You mentioned when I look at characteristics, it's players that play more inside the outside, small things, even the foot. As a right 10, you need to have a left foot because it can change the way you play. You need to have some wingers that are more offensive than defensive because this can change the way we play. So these are the kind of things that we're going to try and do in the future, but it will take time. It's not going to take one summer or whatever.

So, part of me looks at Ameren and goes, the way you look at football and the way you are able to describe the deficiencies of this United squad, I can see why Man Utd's higher-ups are okay with giving you however much money to get a couple of new players in and a couple of players out. And I think, maybe, if Ameren is not a success, he might leave the squad behind.

person for person in a better or more balanced state than eric ten hag left it because amarin seems to have a sense of you need physicality you need two-footed players you need some more technicians i think towards the end of ten hag's reign he lost sight of that just a little bit yet when you read that and that quote i gave you and if you listen to this and amarin's saying it's going to take more than one summer does that fill you with confidence or with dread

at the moment because you want there to be a much quicker fix but we've tried that before and it's not got United out of the situation like we've been saying almost repeatedly since the start of this podcast it feels like history repeating itself in so many ways just on some of the technicalities in that Carl actually so

So Amarin is describing there about some of the specifics that are needed to play in some of the different roles in the team. One of the frustrations I think fans that I've spoken to had yesterday was that players were moved, even from the game against Atletico, into completely different positions. And it doesn't feel yet like players are...

comfortable enough in this formation to be able to do that as regularly as they're doing so someone like Lenny Oro who's been playing so well in one of the wide centre-back roles gets moved yesterday into the centre-back role which presumably is because Maguire and Lindelof are not fit enough to be able to start again but in my mind and this is not revisionism just because Lenny Oro's picked up a foot injury which we'll talk about in a moment as to the situation with that but

Surely more willing to risk Victor Lindelof playing again than Lenny Oro playing again. I don't know the metrics of which that decision's made. That's just me looking from the outside at it. Ahmad came off the bench the other night, was electric defensively.

as the right 10, then gets moved to right wing back. Luke Shaw plays left centre back. When he first came on the pitch the other night, he's playing left wing back. Bruno Fernandes playing multiple roles still in game. Cobby Mayne, who's been used as the central midfielder as one of the sixes or eights, however you describe it, and as one of the 10s.

I'm just not sure that the players are yet at the stage in this system where they can be fully effective being moved about this much. I don't know what you guys think. I totally agree. And the point you raised about then, Jaro, is a really good one. Jaro looks to be making that left-sided centre-back role his own. He seems to be one of the better ball carriers of United centre-backs.

which is really important if you want to play wide centre-back. It gives you so much more wiggle room and it gives you an extra attacking option as well. And you're always one of the better centre-backs you might have when defending larger areas of space, which is what you want from your wide centre-back. So to put him in the middle, where you don't necessarily have to do too much defending and it's more about having the wide centre-backs on a string and being a comms person, different skill set. Perhaps...

And again, this is outside looking. Perhaps Amarin looked at the data from Thursday and went, okay, the best way to get the most out of Euro is to put him in a role where he's not going to be too intensive, have to run too much. And the middle, you don't necessarily have to do as much defending rather than going up and down. Maybe. But...

Yeah, that's a form of experimentation that Manchester United probably can't afford when you need consistency and reps. The difficulty here is obviously, like we said before, this is not a squad that is blessed with, I'm just going to say quality. It's not a squad blessed with quality. It's not a squad blessed with the sort of technicians and roadrunners and athletes that can easily flip between multiple roles. So you then have a choice. And this is also a choice that other former United managers have had where you've got a...

let's say a handful of game changes and you want to protect them but also if you take those players out of the team the quality drops Ole Gunnar Solskjaer extracted a lot of football out of Marcus Rashford out of Bruno Fernandes he tried to extract some football out of Anthony Martial but unfortunately that was less successful and this was one of those things there were times where and I'm going to bring it up again and we can then throw it to Andy there were a lot of times where people were going what about Donny van de Beek

And then we saw what happened when Solskjaer took those better players out and put in Donny van der Beek and put in other players, Eric Bailly instead of Harry Maguire and whatnot, and gave them a run out to try and protect those game changes. And then the team just went, the Manchester United squad isn't blessed with strength and depth. It has a lot of bodies and,

But not strength and depth. And it just creates this very annoying bit. And I'm going to stop talking because I mentioned Donny van der Beek. So now Andy has to talk. Even the selection though yesterday, Andy, it wasn't... There was rotation. There was players being brought in. There's a couple of people who, you know, we would have been shouting to start, I'm sure. And to get a look at ahead of the Europa League final to build fitness for that as well. But in the end, sort of key people weren't really rested properly.

I don't know. I personally sat here now, don't think that the team selection helped the team to get, they should do much better than they did, but I wasn't sure what he was going for. It's probably the way I would term it. It was a strong team against West Ham. West Ham team, we've beaten Manchester United twice this season.

are desperate they want to see new blood introduced that's what was happening with Donny van der Beek I know I make a joke out of it but they hope that he could somehow improve it we've seen it with some of the younger players this season when they don't make an improvement because they're young they're inexperienced they're physically not ready that's another one of your possible aces used up

United are 16th. Whatever you are doing, you cannot be 16th if you're Manchester United. You can try. You can experiment. You can bring in a revolution, an evolution, call it what you want.

but there has to be minimum requirements. People have got to want to go to games. People have got to want to spend the money. Manchester United have sacked managers because the entertainment is absolutely atrocious. Dave Sexton lost his job on a winning run of seven or eight or nine matches because the football had just been so boring. They've got away with it a little bit this season because of the Europa League, because those games have been so exciting, because they've lifted the mood, because fans have had...

trips to look forward to, carrying the season all the way along. So even now we're talking and there is still sunlight. And there's been seasons under Oli Gunnar towards one of the ends of his seasons, under Jose Mourinho, definitely under Ralph Rangnick, when there was nothing to play for and the mood has been on the floor. And it isn't at the moment because everyone's buzzing, because there is a chance of this

golden ticket to get into the Champions League perish the thought of how this team would do in the Champions League by the way coming up against some of the best teams in the world. Amaran said it's like going to the moon wasn't it playing in the Premier League and the Champions League yeah you say yeah the moon good phrasing but that is next season and the team have done well in the Europa League this season you need more consistency from the players you've got

He has tried to rip it up and start again mid-season. Now, to be fair to him, he didn't want to do that. He wanted to wait until the end of the season to take the job. And I think the decision makers at Manchester United have thought, we're just going to have a season of...

making really difficult, tough decisions, whether that's staff losing the jobs as we make big cutbacks, we make the whole club leaner and meaner, and that stretches to the football side as well. And I think there has been a patience from fans. Fans are still singing for the manager. Outsiders find this absolutely baffling that the team can be so bad. People come up to me all the time and they're like, why is this happening? And I'm like,

And you're almost proud of it because there's a defiance there and we're proper supporters and we don't turn on the manager straight away and we're supportive and we wear this as a badge of honour. We've seen the good times in the past and these aren't good times at the moment, but because we're good supporters, when it's good again, we can think when this team really needed us, we were there.

But it doesn't alter the fact that it is atrocious. And I keep using that word. The football is really, really poor. So in terms of the systems, penny for the thoughts of some of the players who've been asked to play a completely different system. The managers playing with players who are not his players. Sometimes they're players...

who've never played this system before. And if he was getting results, that's all fine. But he's not. And when your star players, one of your very few players like Bruno Fernandes, when he has an off day, when he can't raise the team, when he can't assist or score a goal,

That leads to another defeat. Got a massive problem with the strikers. I don't want to invoke any type of pylon onto any individual players. It's hard enough being a young man playing for Manchester United as it is. But if you're playing up front for Manchester United, you've got to score goals. You just have to. And there's just so much frustration around. Recruitment continues to...

have been a massive issue right into this season and I don't have any magic answers here. No, the stat that stood out, to be honest, to sum it up, was from Colin Miller who wrote the article with you, Carl, wasn't it, yesterday? With Ameren's post-match quotes.

He said that Amarant had been a manager for 24 matches against teams that will appear in the Premier League next season. Three wins, seven draws, 14 defeats, 16 points from a possible 72. So that tells you the story of just how far the team has been away from the standard. One of those wins is against Manchester City away, which is faintly hilarious. One of those draws is against Liverpool away, which was almost as impressive. In fact, the performance was probably better, so...

There are bits to cling on to, but it's getting nearer and nearer and nearer to the edge of our fingernails, isn't it? I felt this towards the end of our Ecton Hog stint. Is this manager making things more difficult than it needs to be? Is this manager starting arguments that they don't necessarily need to start? Because when you are a Manchester United manager, you're under heavy amounts of scrutiny and the arguments are going to come anyway. The problems are going to come anyway. And a lot of what you need to do is to just solve problems

existing problems or solve problems that you've inherited and we've invoked his name a lot here over this podcast and I think that was one of Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's real strengths when he was as a Manchester United manager and I've said before on this podcast I probably got too focused on looking up at the league table and what Ole could do to get the team going up I'd lost sight of all the good work he was making sure the team didn't completely bottom out and collapse out the top four so my apologies there

I think I have a feeling of what the floor is going to look like under Amarin. We're at that, aren't we? Relegation? This is the basement. This is below the floor, isn't it? Let me rephrase. I think I have a sense of what a competent Amarin team, a competent Manchester United Amarin team is going to look like. I have no idea what the best case scenario is going to look like there. And I just...

If you can, listen to that press conference post-West Ham. Just listen to it a little bit and get a sense of just how ticked off he was. It was a ticking off that really felt reminiscent of previous post-United managers going, this ain't, we've got to go proper root and branch and gut some of this stuff out. He's Amundsen's first summer window in charge of sporting. More than 12 players left.

Now, Andy says players have contracts and a lot of those players at Manchester United have very, very big contracts that very few football clubs around the world can afford. So it'll be difficult. But there was just something about the way Aaron was talking on Sunday. I'm like, you want to do a big, big, big sprint cleaning, don't you? OK, let's talk about something else. Let's preview the weekend.

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All for free at Aura.com slash safety. That's Aura.com slash safety to sign up and start protecting yourself and your loved ones. That's A-U-R-A dot com slash safety. Terms apply. Check the site for details. Okay, before we look ahead to the Women's FA Cup final between Manchester United and Chelsea and the Men's Premier League fixture against Chelsea as well, I need to point you in the direction of a couple of podcasts that are coming your way later on this week.

You'll have seen already, I'm sure, but this week marks 20 years since the Glazer takeover of Manchester United and we have got two special podcasts looking on how it happened and also what happens next for the club and for the ownership of Manchester United as well. We've got some brilliant guests on the podcast from all the different sides involved.

of the situation and that should be out ready for you later on this week. We're also working on a Talk of the Devils extra ahead of the Europa League final looking at Manchester United's European finals of the past so if you've got any memories, any things you want to point out about those, get in touch devilspod at theathletic.com Right,

Sunday, 1.30pm, Andy Mitten, the Women's FA Cup final, Manchester United against Chelsea, it's the third consecutive final for Mark Skinner's side, fantastic, and the first one of that run was against Chelsea two years ago on Wednesday, unfortunately United lost that one 1-0.

but hopefully this time around for the team, it can be completely different. Congratulations on reaching another FA Cup final. I know fans have had a brilliant day out. Sunday was supposed to be Manchester United-Chelsea in the men's game in the Premier League. An idiot here booked and paid for travel to London, which I've now lost. Well, there you go. You've got a game to attend. Perfect. Yeah, I may have to go to another game, but let's just see on that one. I think this season for the women's team,

Third place, I know there's not been a win in four league games now. Another defeat on Sunday against Arsenal, who were second, the team above them. Top three in a trophy. Yeah, top three, look. And they've met in standard of quality. And they've met it. They've absolutely met it. And they've surprised people because there was a lot of negative talk at the start of the season about the funding, about...

The facilities as Carrington was rebooted about the coach and I think a lot of people have been proved wrong and that result against Manchester City at Old Trafford a couple of weeks ago. 2-2. 2-2 was significant and it meant that Manchester United finished one point above Manchester City to qualify for Europe and that is a success for this team. Charlotte spoke really well about it last week and one of the points I made to her was is it a problem for the women's game that Chelsea keep winning the league every year?

She said football leagues need jeopardy. Chelsea have won the title again. They're going to be favourites for the cup final, but I quite like Charlotte's optimism about Manchester United in this cup final. Chelsea clearly the favourites for it. I don't know.

I'm hopeful that somehow United can beat a Chelsea team who are by far and away the most dominant team in women's football. They went invincible in the WSO this season. And bear in mind, this was meant to be the season where Chelsea had a wobble. This was meant to be the post-MAA season where they were going to have a little bit of a transition and teams like Manchester City and like Arsenal and like Manchester United were meant to take advantage of that and creep into...

higher up and make it more of a tyre race and nope they just kept on trucking and just absolutely demolished nearly every single team in the WSL they are a juggernaut I'm saying this reminds you Manchester United beat them in the semi-final of the FA Cup last season yeah en route to beating Spurs 4-0 in the final we want a bit more of that don't we we want a bit more of that United won that semi-final because they started super hot

came flying out the blocks, gone the first 10 minutes. And Chelsea, that day, probably a little bit off colour and were surprised by the fact that a team wasn't afraid of them because Chelsea now have this sort of frightening aura to them where they pretty much start games and they feel like they're 1-0 up. United will not be overawed. Mark Skinner has his critics.

But he seems to be another manager that's very good at making sure the floor doesn't fall out. And then you can have a big conversation about making sure, you know, is he stretching them and is he getting to them to that stretch goal to the moon and whatnot there. So if this is to be a final that United are going to need a chance, you're going to need to have probably another phenomenal performance from Celis Joyce, who to my mind is...

I mean, she's succeeded Mary Earps in goal at United superbly. I think she's an absolutely phenomenal football player. And they're probably really going to need to, I'm going to borrow Ian's word again, stodge up that midfield. Do not let Chelsea play. If you play Chelsea in a football game, it's going to be difficult. If you play Chelsea in more of a hockey match...

wink, wink, nudge, nudge, you might have more of a chance there. Yeah, both WSL games against Chelsea finished in 1-0 defeats for United this season. Charlotte explained when she was on the pod that the first game was a lot about Manchester United sitting back trying to soak up pressure, trying to frustrate and bore Chelsea into submission basically, whereas this

Second time around, they were a lot more positive. I think the stat that she read out that was in her piece as well about the game was that Manchester United's XG of 1.8 was higher than Chelsea's of 1.3.

in that 1-0 defeat at Leeds at the end of April. So there was a marked improvement across the two matches and if United can make the same sort of performance or even step it up even more, there is a chance that they can beat Chelsea at Wembley on Sunday. Andy, the last time around, I know this is your thing, 77,000 fans, well more than actually,

the final. They were still riding the crest of the wave of the England women's win in Euro 2022, which had given a real sort of shot in the arm for interest in the women's game. And that's still a world record for

for a women's domestic match. So I don't think they're going to get to those numbers, but you'd like to think there's going to be a big crowd there, a big occasion for Manchester United, and that it could bring the best out in Skinner's side. Yeah, all true. I like you say world record for a women's domestic match. I was actually at the games, which were the world record for women's games. They were Barcelona in European matches. And Barcelona, who are the best women's team in the world...

They have comfortably beaten Chelsea, so they can be beaten. I'm not saying that Manchester United can get anywhere near that level. It's fantastic that, A, the crowd's that big, B, the tickets are accessible. I know loads of people who went to Wembley for the cup final to see the women's team. They took the kids. It's hard to get tickets for Manchester United's men's first team match, and it's much easier, and you can go with your family. The atmosphere is noticeably different.

for better, for worse, but it is noticeably different.

It's good that the team have got there and come on, let's get a trophy. Yeah, just to confirm then, United end up finishing third in the WSL. They lost 4-3 against Arsenal on Saturday. It was a pretty thrilling end to the match. United nearly managed to fight all the way back to 4-4. So that means they'll have two rounds of qualifying to negotiate for a place in the group stage of the competition. Skinner says they need more physicality and attack in the summer and more Champions League experience. So I'm sure an FA Cup win

might just help tempt a few more players to play at Leeds Sports Village next season. OK, good luck to the team. Right, Manchester United against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, the men's side, Friday night. It was moved so both teams could have the opportunity for the fans to attend both matches, which feels like a pretty progressive move. It gives United more time, of course, to prepare for the Europa League final. But Carl Watt,

What do they do now? I mean, you'd like to think that that defeat means that they were more up for this game. But I could have said that numerous times this season. And the team selection is maybe even more in question, isn't it? Isn't the answer draw 1-1? Because it's Chelsea away. Yeah, isn't that normally what happens between those? I was there in April last year in one of the most ridiculous games of Enric Ten Hag's tenure. That wasn't 1-1. That was not 1-1. That was...

I don't know what that was. That was the latest ever turnaround in Premier League history for a 4-3 defeat in stoppage time when Manchester United entered stoppage time in front. A clown show of a football game from both sides, to be fair. Chelsea were also willing participants in that foolishness. I don't think Friday's game will be that open and that ridiculous. Ameren seemed...

pretty serious when he was asked about preparation. He said, look, we've got to prepare. We're not going to talk about the Europa League final and you'll see we're going to be fully prepared. So he wants to treat this game with the utmost seriousness. Lenny Yoro, so Yoro passed back to Bayern Dier in the 49th minute and then sort of went down and started clutching his left foot. Looked very, very odd. Amrin looked quite distressed. In fact, clutching his face, shaking his head and whatnot. Immediately makes the swat.

Steve Railson had video along with Simon Peach after the game. Euro was walking, no protective boot, and went without crutches. Amrit said, hopefully it's just a small thing. I mean, we will get more information or we will know more on Monday when all the players will go back in. So I'm not expecting him to play even if he is fit because you've got to keep him fresh for whatever's there in the Europa League. So this might be...

Like you said before, a Victor Lindelof game. I think this might also be a game for perhaps Alejandro Garnaccio. I know we talked about the strikers now. I am now wondering if Ameren might take a leaf out of Eric Ten Hag's book in the lead-up to the FA Cup final and see if there is a striker list or a false nine solution or alternative that he wants to give a run out before the 21st. Because I think what's currently going on with Rasmus Hoyt and

leads one to think he might need a plan b i'm worried because it's a huge game for chelsea they need they need to win manchester united can use the word atrocious yet again atrocious form i'm still scarred i think i sat next to you last year carl at stanford bridge when you're thinking manchester united are doing all right here oh no no no no i can't believe this has just happened i definitely sat next year remember walking out the ground with you dazed

It's important that Manchester United do not pick up any injuries ahead of the Europa League final. What do you want me to say, Ian? I just feel... I don't know. I don't have any optimism at all that Manchester United can win a game of football in the Premier League away from home against a competent team. I just don't. And I've probably never felt like this in my life, supporting Manchester United. No. No.

You know, I'm being honest. I just cannot see where a win is coming from. Well, I remember sitting in the studio when we did that in-person podcast after we did the live show in London, which was the March international break, and reading out some of the fixtures that Manchester United had left in the Premier League and joking, I don't think they'll win another game here.

remarkably with Chelsea away and Aston Villa left which like you say big game for Chelsea Friday final day Aston Villa might be absolutely desperate for a win to get into the Champions League there's a very real prospect that United won't have won another game in the Premier League between the March international break and the end of the campaign United start one back-to-back Premier League games this season they need to beat Chelsea and Aston Villa to do that

Chelsea probably were undone and threw away that game on Sunday due to Nicholas Jackson getting sent off. They still made a big play of it, didn't they? Certainly in the early part of the second half. A little bit. That Chelsea team is significantly weaker when Jackson doesn't play. I think he is maybe seven-tenths of the way there to being a properly good Premier League striker. They're 24 points ahead of United, Chelsea. Oh, what are you saying this for? Honestly. It's like you want me in a mood. Oh,

It's hard to not be in one, isn't it? Even the record at Stamford Bridge. I mean, normally...

This would be bad anyway, but it feels even worse at the minute. One win in the Premier League since 2012 at Stamford Bridge, only two wins of the last 22 league meetings away at Chelsea. It's not a place where even good Manchester United teams have come away with much. It's going to be Casemiro set-piece danger, emergency striker Harry Maguire set-piece danger. Do you protect the likes of Bruno Fernandes, Nus Mazraoui, the lads who have played the most? Mazraoui's the interesting one. I was surprised he played as long as he did previously.

Yeah. On Sunday. Supposed to be dead, wasn't he? To be honest, he looked quite tired. But again, this is also a difficult bit. And quite frankly, a lot of players at Manchester United seem to be playing by default because Manzarelli has to play because Diogo Dalot is injured.

And that's sort of an uncomfortable situation. Well, yeah, Joro had to play because De Ligt's injured and presumably, like we said before, Maguire and Lindelof weren't able to go again from the start. But you don't want needs must to then create you more problems for the final. But then the other side of it, Andy, there's five days between the Friday night game and the Wednesday night game.

And United do need something, don't they? Some sort of energy to take to Bilbao? Or am I telling the answer with the way the intonation went in that question? Yeah, you are. But we could have said it about almost every game. Yeah, exactly. But in Europe, it is different. And it is better for the game to be on the Friday night. He says...

knowing that he's not going to be able to go that game because I'm going to watch a Derby game in Dublin instead, which was all booked up. So I'm going to have to watch Manchester United-Chelsea at some point after with the enthusiasm that I watched Manchester United-West Ham yesterday. You've got to put your phone in the other room. LAUGHTER

It's all about Bilbao. Chelsea fans will probably actually wish Manchester United well against Tottenham in that final, just like West Ham fans were doing yesterday. But what does that even mean? We're in the bottom of the barrel here, just looking for pieces that don't look like shit and thinking, ah, we can find something that's positive. And how do we get out this barrel? And you look up and you see these really high walls, but you've got this ladder here.

which is called the Europa League, which we could climb up and we can just about peer over the top. Oh, we're playing Tottenham who've beaten us three times already this season, but Tottenham are even worse than us. And they've got injuries as well. Oh my, it is so unusual as a Manchester United fan.

to be this bad. We're lucky, aren't we, that this is a massive anomaly. It has to stay an anomaly. It has to be an anomaly. I thought eight fast season was an anomaly. There you go. There has to be a concerted effort from everyone involved to go, this is an anomaly. These are lessons that you only need to learn once. These are mistakes we only need to make once because it cannot continue this way.

For Ameren, for the players, for the fans in general. Any Man United fan who finished last season, finishing eighth, going, oh, right, I've seen the worst. And it's gone into this one.

I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Yeah, I mean, we need to win the Europa League final, not just because of silverware, not just because of the Champions League next season, but we need to continue people getting really annoyed about Manchester United being so bad in the Premier League and still being able to win a trophy and find a route into the Champions League. That has to continue. I have enjoyed the debate.

so much. And if one more person asks the question, can the season be saved in Bilbao? No season is getting saved in Bilbao. Yeah. Maybe there'll be something to salvage from the end of the campaign, but nothing is getting saved.

But the one thing it would do, it would just get people really, really annoyed about Manchester United. And that is the superpower that our club has that we definitely need to keep hold of, despite how crap this campaign has been in so many ways. Right, I'm going to leave it there. But thank you for your company on Talk of the Devils. Andy and Carl, thank you very much for being with us. We'll be back later on the week with those two Glazer specials.

So yeah, have a listen to those. Let us know what you think. Devils pod at the athletic.com. And we'll speak to you again very, very soon. Take care. Thanks for listening. Bye-bye. The athletic FC podcast network with an hour before boarding. There's only one place to go. The chase Sapphire lounge by the club there. You can recharge before the big adventure or enjoy a locally inspired dish. You can recline in a comfy chair to catch up on your favorite show or order a craft cocktail at the bar.

If

Great.

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