Another home defeat as Rashford nears exit
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This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. We are here inside the press box. Well, three of us are. Another one of us is at home to reflect on the

On that bit of positivity we had on the last podcast, completely evaporating in 90 minutes here at Old Trafford, United 0-0 Crystal Palace 2, we'll react to every single detail of that unfortunately. There were some new signings paraded before the game against Palace and we'll talk about the arrival of Patrick Dorgue in particular and it looks set to be a busy 24 hours or so for the club with Marcus Rashford on the verge of joining Aston Villa and maybe more players coming in as well.

as well. But that can wait for the minute. Karl Anka's alongside me, Laurie Woodwell is as well, Andy Mitton is at home and well it just feels like that's a match we've watched before Laurie doesn't it? Well yeah, what were the start? What

What was the last time that United actually scored against Crystal Palace at Old Trafford? They've not scored against Palace for two years, I think it is now. In fact, Marcus Rashford was the last Manchester United player, I think, to score against Crystal Palace in the Premier League. We'll talk more about him in a bit. But yeah, Manchester United have now failed to score in four matches in the Premier League against Crystal Palace. And the last time they went four games, Carl, against an opponent without scoring was Arsenal between 1981 and 1983. The positives.

Positive stats just keep on coming. Right then. So we're calling Crystal Palace a bogey team now. I'm blaming you for this, by the way. I was just double checking. Oh, that was dreadful, wasn't it? Just...

I can't keep doing this with this team. Amron's been dealt a bad set of cards and this squad is not knowingly optimised to play how he wants to play football. And it's not optimised to play any form of modern football for the top end of the Premier League. But I do feel as if Amron played his cards badly today. There's such a thing as being too clever.

His strikeless experiment didn't quite work, did it? No, it didn't. We'll talk about that, definitely. Andy, fundamentally, Crystal Palace like playing Manchester United and that's not a good thing, is it? No,

No, not at all. Manchester United can't play against them, although they did play well in the first half at Sellers Park. Still didn't win that earlier on in the season. I'm really concerned about the home form, Ian. That's now five defeats in the last six games at home in the Premier League. That's the sort of form a relegation-threatened team would turn their nose up. It's really, really poor. And I know cup form has been better, both home and away, but I'm not surprised that Palace...

Beat United today. You know, you've mentioned some of the stats already. We can't keep a clean sheet. I think Fulham last week was the first in 10. And I think that's the last time we scored in the first half. I think Bruno's penalty against Brighton. And aside from that, United have not scored in the first half since Forest, which is nearly two months ago.

That is really, really alarming, isn't it? Yeah, I think the form here in particular is alarming. I interviewed Bruno Fernandes after the game. I said, are the team finding it harder to play at Old Trafford at the moment? And he sort of dismissed the suggestion, said that it doesn't matter where the results are coming. They just need to find them, whether it's at home or it's away. But there's definitely an issue playing here and there. I mean, even the atmosphere today, I know we've spoken about, you know, the atmosphere inside the ground in recent times, but...

0-0 at half-time, I walked from the pitch side position down towards the tunnel area. And in the main stand here, you could count how many people were even applauding the team off. And maybe they didn't deserve applauding, but actually the first 20 minutes seemed OK. There's people recording on the phones, holding up banners for, I want this player's shirt, I want that player's shirt. I know that the team have to bring some of the vibe as well, but I do think vast swathes of this crowd, it's just flat, isn't it?

Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, obviously you've got the...

Before the game, there was the Flowers of Munich to mark the occasion for the Munich anniversary. I don't know if that somberness plays a little bit into this particular atmosphere now. The Red Army section were trying to get a song going the whole way through, the new Ruben Amarin song, I think, to the Bonnie Tyler. They're giving it. It's everyone else, isn't it? Yeah, but I don't know, is that not just modern football? I mean...

Yeah, I think it's a sort of chicken and egg situation, isn't it? If the team start playing well and performing well, the atmosphere will be energised. But I do have long-term concerns about the general atmosphere of Old Trafford just because of how people get tickets. And you can understand the higher ticket prices, people feel like they want to get more value for money from it. There was boos at the end of the game for losing the game 2-0. There has been boos at different points in the season. That's been normalised now. Yeah, so I mean...

Harder to play at Old Trafford. The impetus is on United, isn't it?

to come out more. So obviously in the end Palace were able to sit back and they actually were breaking really well and particularly that second goal, the timings of the runs were perfect. United were slack to allow them to be onside but away from home United can be a bit more compact and kind of play on the count of themselves so I think that's maybe part of it that they're so limited in terms of what they can do offensively that it actually suits them to be away because they can just sit back and not entirely sit back but the

there's not the kind of same sort of expectation that they would go on the front foot away from home. Kyle, I'm not even sure Crystal Palace played that well in a way. They just sort of were quite calm, quite composed. They waited to work out what Manchester United had changed with the false nine or however you want to describe it with Kobi Meynu playing through the middle as the most advanced player. But after that 20 minutes or so, United just...

Didn't really create much, didn't really bring much. 50-odd minutes, I think, the first shot on target in the game. Yeah, look, I don't think Palace play particularly well, but you don't necessarily need to play particularly well against Manchester United at this current point in time. What you do need to do is maximise your chances of scoring goals and then wait for United to lose their heads after they go down. So, Palace go ahead in the second half, Mateta from a set-piece sequence, oddity.

Yoro not getting first contact to the ball when the set piece is whipped in, it dings off the crossbar and Matej is just the quickest one to react. And then of course the game gets stretched because United are looking for that equaliser when the game gets stretched. United are playing in, they're less compact, there's more space for a player like Ugarte to cover. Ugarte is only one man and then more space opens up and if you are a team that's halfway decent at counter-attacking, which is the majority of the teams in the Premier League now,

another goal is always on it's really difficult because it all gets compounded why is it harder to play at home well United aren't playing very well at the moment so the crowd is quite flat why is the crowd quite flat because it took Manchester United 50 minutes to have a shot on target ok I don't if you are in this straightforward end then you're not making a bit of noise because these lot can't get the ball to test the goalkeeper come on mate like

Blah, blah, blah. Why did Amarin put both of his strikers on the bench and start a 19-year-old defensive midfielder, defensively-minded midfielder, up front? Because both of his strikers right now can't hit a barn door or aren't even inclined to have a shot towards the barn door. So I don't know how you fix this between now and the end of the season without a huge...

be it warm weather training, huge injection of money in the last hours of the window, a huge change of perspective or tactical shift from someone, either Ameren himself or people in and around Ameren. But this is, I only have sound effects because I'm trying not to swear. You've been running out of sound effects, to be fair. I mean, it's felt like all season we've been waiting for United to drag themselves out of 12th or 13th place, Andy, whatever it's been. And

I'm starting to wonder whether we're going to get to May and still be waiting for United to drag themselves out of this position. The season's got four months left now, hasn't it? So we've gone right past the halfway point. The league table is an accurate portrayal of how good Manchester United are, worryingly so. We keep the optimism because we're still in cup matches,

But there's alarming areas all over the pitch and part of me thinks just got to get through the season in the league. But what does that even mean?

which players are going to stay. You know that the manager is going to be backed. How many windows is it going to change? We've seen two new players come in. The most probable starter there is a left back. I'd be interested to see if Deleuze, for example, is starting on the left in a month's time. There's negatives. I don't know whether you know more than I do about Martinez, but that looked pretty distressing when he went off the pitch. I thought he was a player who'd actually come into good form, scoring some key goals there.

But your strikers, your three main strikers, well, one's about to leave. I'm sure we'll talk about that. And the other two can't score. And we see flashes. You know, even when Hoyland came on, he tried to steer ahead towards goal. It was quite an intelligent thing. But if you're a striker, people are going to look at how many goals you score in.

I think my worry is the season just ends, you just run out of time. You stay in 10th or 11th and somehow Manchester United do well in one of the Cups and we end the season with a smile. But it's been an appalling season. Yeah, there's no other word for it, to be honest, especially in the Premier League. Just to spell it out then, Ruben Amarin said in his press conference after the game that it was a bad, serious situation.

Yeah.

Yeah, but in the end, wasn't he out? He came back in March and then he didn't play again until May, basically. And he was kind of patched up for the Champions League. I'm getting excited there. For the FA Cup final. Champions League final, wow. Those were the days, weren't they? So yeah, it was very similar the way that it happened. It was maybe a bit more danger with this one with Sarr getting in. But at West Ham, it was kind of like it was...

wasn't like the most threatening circumstances and he's kind of stretching and I think it's a different knee this time left knee rather than right knee so there's I suppose hope there that it's not sort of

compounded the damage. But they obviously did. They brought him back, didn't they, a bit earlier than they thought. And obviously that was only after four months out previously to that with the foot injury that he'd had. And again, that was a bit of an issue coming back from that and he had to have a second surgery. So it's just been since that first season where it looked like he was the absolute answer to United's issues building from the back. He's had a torrid time and I agree with Andy that I thought he was really coming into his form recently, obviously scoring those couple of goals, but also the balls in the channel.

So yeah, distressing signs and Amarin really did not cut an optimistic figure after the game. As you say there, serious injury. He's saying that this is the time now for us to rally around him. He's a character as much as an important player for us, so we need to repay that back was basically his word. I suppose you look on the replacements and Lenny Yorra has played in that left side, hasn't he, at times? Luke Shaw's sort of...

sort of bat but again you can't really take his fitness for granted and obviously Dorgue is you know left wing back so I suppose that does you know put up possibilities with Dallow maybe playing as a left-sided centre half and Aidan Heaven who you know was unveiled alongside Dorgue before the game is a left-sided centre back but he's 18 and he's played one senior game of football for Arsenal you know in the Carabao Cup as a substitute so to expect him

I know they're talking about him being a first-team player, which was a little bit surprising given, obviously, you're signing him from Arsenal's academy. But maybe that is the case now, you know, with Martinez being injured, he was supposed to be back up for him. So let's see how much he's featuring in the next few weeks. Yeah, let's hope for some good news with Lissandro Martinez, whatever that looks like, obviously.

It'll be a few days, I think, before United know the extent of that problem. Carl, let's go back to the crux of the issue with the team sheet when it dropped. No central striker for Manchester United. When you look at the form of the players, Hoyland, no goals in 13 appearances, Xerxe, no goals in 11 appearances, you can understand why the manager tried to change things. But considering how good Kobi Meynou was in that number 10 role on Thursday night, what did you make of that choice?

Head scratcher? Head scratcher. Yes, there is some merit in sending a signal or trying to mix things up against Crystal Palace by not playing either one of your underperforming strikers. Send a signal in what way? Well, if you're one of the people who believe starting lineups change a little bit towards the end of a transfer window because the manager's going, I need a bit of help here.

Yeah, you might have read that starting line-up before kick-off and gone, oh, a certain person in Bayern Munich might be getting a phone call from United between now and Monday evening. Was that Amirin's tell, that line-up, was it? It might have been. It might have been. Now, the first ten minutes of this game, it looked as if it was working. Mainu's ability to make the ball stick and he's got an affinity with Ahmad seems to have opened things up. Sixth minute,

pulls to the near post, does a pull back for Garnaccio, that goes off target, minute after that, wriggles some space and then shoots past the far post and Dean Ellison going, this is good, this is fine. However, it's a bit like when Tedden Haag played Christian Eriksen as a false nine against Brighton way back when, in that the first 15 minutes are all nice and cushy because you're having a couple of touches and the defenders are going, oh hang on, should I stay or should I go? And then 15 minutes after that the defenders go, I'm just going to stay, I'm

I'm not, every time you drop deep, I'm just going to stay here because also when you do play a false nine, the players behind you need to be attacking all the space you vacate. And if the defenders don't vacate the space, those attackers are going, oh no, I'm stuck. And the players behind me weren't exactly having fun or any glory going through. Garnaccio had two or three times run into brick walls. And Ahmad, we know about all of his skills, but he too was looking up and going, oh God, there's three defenders I have to get past now.

The fact that we got to the 60th minute and Amarin did not look anywhere near inclined to bring on either striker was, to my mind, quite damning on both Hoyland and Xerxe. And the fact that both of those men came on in the 70th minute after they go a goal down, OK, yeah, good. You've gone for both of them. You're really chasing the game. But, Laurie, you had the stats. How many shots did Hoyland and Xerxe have today? Well, we looked at it together, didn't we, Karl? Because I was about to post it in my briefing piece and I said, can you just help me here? And so, yeah...

there was no shots from either of them until the 97th minute when Hoyland had that header I think that Andy mentioned so it wasn't exactly like they came on and transformed the game and it's really fascinating this whole aspect to me with Amarin because he said hasn't he previously that Xerxes is not really a striker anyway he's also said that putting two strikers on just for the fans and just for the media won't necessarily mean that

the team are more potent and he repeated that kind of line afterwards again today because he was asked the question, was this a demonstration to the kind of hierarchy that you're not satisfied at the movements in the transfer window? And he said, no, it's not like that. I thought Cobby's characteristics better suited this game. And, you know, but clearly he's got issues, right, with Hoyland and Xerxe because you don't leave those, both those strikers out that United have signed in the last year, you know, one of whom by this regime to then, you know,

play against Crystal Palace with Kobi Mainu who has played false nine in the academy coming through when I did my piece earlier in the year I sort of found that out and he's played winger and stuff so he is you know he's kind he was brought up as an offensive minded player but it's a different thing playing against

Crystal Palace defence that are clearly well drilled Lacroix Mark Gahee these are serious centre backs that know what they're doing and it takes a lot more than kind of a little bit of a hopeful you know turn of position I would say to undo them and it did it started brightly and it looked

it looked nice and you sort of can see the configurations working and Almenu dropping, Garnaccio and Ahmad sort of trying to run into that space. But yeah, as Carl said, they figured it out. And so that's the crux of the issue. And it does, it kind of fascinates me. I mean, Almirane again said that it's a team thing. It's not just about the players on the pitch. So it's, you know, not just by buying a striker does the issue get resolved. I did ask him about Matthijs Tell to complete your lovely little pun there, Ian. You know, there's obviously, you know,

there it's felt up to this point more perhaps from the player or the agent where it's kind of let's see if something can happen here you know it wouldn't be the first time that United have been sort of pushed into a deal at different moments when they've been in a January transfer window especially for a striker looking for some reinforcements but it was interesting to say Amrin say afterwards we have to balance the mistakes of the past with the urgency of the present and not basically

basically go down the same path as we have done previously where we've thrown money at it and it's not worked out and it's been a bad deal but it is going to be a really fascinating final 24 hours I think We'll talk more about transfers in a moment but do you want to add something on the Palace game? I've seen you just looking on your phone there It just felt unnecessarily complicated and there were five changes going into the Europa League game on Thursday and on the last podcast we were speaking about how

you move Masraoui back into right centre back and that really helped with build up because he can pick the ball up in different spaces here he is back again at wing back

And again, there's not the thrust down the right flank that you're getting where you have a player like a Maddie who can play right wing back. You want to try and give the players individually some momentum in these positions as well, don't you? Especially when they've had such a positive night like they did on Thursday. Yeah. Dalot played right wing back, scores at the back post. He's back on the left again and he's back turning on his right foot. I can see why Amarin is not going to play Malasia left wing back in the Premier League against a team that is just a lot bigger and stronger in Palace.

and there are again I'm going to keep talking about strength and barrel chested football players because you see it over and over and over again when Mateta two or three times today gets the ball to halfway line and he's gone alright I'm just going to run 20 yards now can any of you stop us and the first half was ridiculous wasn't it and unless Ugarte can get

Into a player early in the first five yards before they build momentum You've seen it two or three times United players just bouncing off so many of these players I like Yoro had two or three decent tackles in the first half where he sort of stretched out a telescopic leg but when the game got stretched in the second half you can tell he's he's suffering because He doesn't necessarily have the guidance of a center back like say Rafael Varane and he's there going check your wing mirrors I need to do this stand here and throw in

So you've got a collection of older players now who are trying to learn a system they're not really comfortable with and they don't necessarily have the legs or aptitude to crunch into some of these bigger tackles. You've got a bunch of young players right now who are being thrown in the deep end and asked to single swim and then your middle band

are players who quite frankly are probably playing too many minutes. If this was a better structured or a better run top six team, these are players that are playing 20 minutes off the bench sub-roll, but now they're playing week in, week out, often changing position week in, week out.

And it's just quite a cocktail that, isn't it? Indeed, one that Laurie wouldn't even drink. No, even he wouldn't order that one. Right, if you want to know more or you want to read more, you want to indulge more in that 90 minutes here at Old Trafford this afternoon, obviously Kyle and Laurie's match verdict is on The Athletic right now.

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OK, transfers. Andy, how excited are you about these next 24 hours as we count down to the deadline? Can't wait, mate. It's up there with changing money in airports, you know what I mean? Absolutely buzz off stuff like this. You know, I will cheer you up, though, because I know you might have me down as miserable. I got sent some... Only a little bit. I got sent some footage today from inside the Stretford end of United fans singing a new song for Ruben Amorim. Yeah, yeah. To the tune of Bonnie Tyler's It's A Heartache. The lyrics are...

We'll bring the glory days again, back in from the Stretford end, turn the reds around, Reuben Amorim. That didn't sound like Bonnie Tyler. No, it didn't. I realised I've hashed them because I did get sent the words. Okay. Reuben Amorim, we'll bring the glory days again, back in from the Stretford end, turn the reds around.

I'm having that. That gets a little tick for taking off. I once sat behind Bonnie Tyler on a plane from the Faroe Islands, but I don't have a great story to tell you because I didn't speak a word to her. I just said, oh, that's what she called her. What she called. Oh, it's I.

Ah, it's Bonnie Tyler as I landed at Stansted Airport. But nice one for people getting going. I see merit in that. I'm a bit worried that the original is. It's a heartache though because watching Manchester United at the moment feels like that. On the Andy Mitten bingo sort of anecdote game, I did not have Bonnie Tyler, the Faroe Islands and a Ronan aeroplane. But maybe you at home did, you know, play along again next time. Let's talk about transfers as I've just tried to do. Laurie, you are a bit more titillated by this sort of thing.

Can we just do the incomings first? Obviously, Dogu confirmed earlier on today, presented to the crowd, along with Aidan Heaven, who you've also spoken about as well. But Matthias Tell, could he be...

could he be coming do you think obviously you asked the manager about it how much substance is there to this yeah I think there obviously is some substance because I'm told they are working on an offensive you know signing to my knowledge you know with Anthony going out with Marcus Rashford more importantly going out

That obviously allows a bit of financial rigour room. Obviously, Patrick Dorgue counters some of that. But I just feel it would be kind of crazy to allow two players going out, even though they weren't featuring, to not then sort of just bring somebody in. And I'm not saying just do it for the sake of it, but I don't know, it feels like there's options out there at least. I mean, Matthijs Tell, yeah, is one that you kind of look at as maybe a more appealing option.

from a United perspective because he's at a big club right now. He's obviously scored against United, so he's got that in his favour. Again, he's only 19 and coming into a new league in this moment, you're sort of wondering his ability to make that kind of impact. But it's one that I think they're obviously in talks over whether they actually then go and push it. Let's see. Christopher Nkunku, I was told, is still being spoken about

sort of behind the scenes again let's see if that's something that they can act on and whether Chelsea agree to do a deal Leon Bailey was somebody else that did get brought up and we mentioned this on the Athletic but I'm now told that that's not going to happen which I think makes more sense right it seemed a bit of a curious one but I think it kind of come up in conversations around Rashford so yeah I'd

I just feel like we have been here before and I know the new regime are trying to do things differently but there's a certain pressure that comes in Manchester United. In the final 24 hours of a window. And that pressure is accentuated when you lose 2-0 at home to Crystal Palace to compound further defeats at Old Trafford and scoring issues. So, yeah, let's see. On scoring issues, Tell hasn't played much.

consistently for Bayern Munich this season but if we are looking for a remedy to our goal scoring issues it's not going to be music to people's ears that he hasn't scored since May no he's not scored since May if you're looking for your remedy for a goal scoring issue it's behind the strikers for now one thing that is promising about Tell is that he does shoot

A lot more. One of the things I'm really annoyed about with Hoyling is he doesn't shoot anywhere near enough and someone should be yelling at him constantly. A shot a half. Why are you not shooting? I don't care for Speckley. Shoot more. Tell doesn't have that issue. He's going to let fly. Of course, look, if you're an attacking player right now and you're not getting two minutes for Bayern Munich, I can understand that because the striker for Bayern Munich is someone that Eric Turnhaag really, really wanted to get for Manchester United but couldn't get him because he spent a lot of money on a defensive midfielder that didn't actually play today for Manchester United.

I just love this squad I love how it was put together just really sensible squad building from Manchester United over a series of years look Teller's promising there's a fantastic piece from Anath on the website right now where he's been in a tactics truck and he's broken down his skills his attributes and how to fit into various teams the

Yeah, because there's competition. There's Tottenham, there's Arsenal, I think, have been mentioned as well. They've said no to Tottenham, hasn't they? I was going to say, there's competition in the tactics truck. Aren't you usually in there, Carly? Did you have to elbow you out of the way, Anath? Me and Anath are constantly duelling. So we were doing the match list earlier in January. Hot desk in, is it called? Couldn't be with me, office terms. And the editor said, who's going to do the match piece for the post-Palace game? And I thought, hang on.

Final days before a transfer window. I can't have Laurie writing a match piece late into the night. I'll have to cover this. Laurie's got to be on his two mobile phones texting all sorts of agents and whatnot. He's already established he doesn't have time for football during this period. Honestly, what a mess. So yeah, I'm probably going to have to get in the tactics truck repeatedly between now and God knows when to watch various football players. The thing about Tell, he reminds me a bit of...

No, I'm not going to say it. I'm not going to say it. You can if you like. He does remind me a little bit of young Martial. Just a little bit. Young Martial was better than old Martial though, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he reminds me a little bit of young Martial in that, are you a number nine? Are you a left-sided forward? Are you going to figure one out? Please?

Pick a role. It does show the paucity, I think, of genuine centre-forwards. Good word. In Europe, thank you. What does it mean? Lack of scarcity. Jean-Philippe Mateta showed the value of having a solid centre-forward. Yeah, is he available? Yeah.

Just don't let him leave Old Trafford, kidnap him, he's a big lad but I'm sure we can deal with it. The security lads are handy. A forceful centre forward, right? Follows up the rebound and then is in the right place, timing his run correctly to put in the second one and as we mentioned earlier, that run in the first half was kind of

really but I do think it does show the issues around trying to get a true centre forward which I guess maybe is why there's reports in Portugal about Victor Jocares in the summer you know obviously someone that Ruben Amrin knows and yeah it's going to be whatever the solution is in this interim period doesn't feel like it's going to be the long term solution so it's going to be a recurring theme

Yeah, bring him along with Quenda, who obviously you were reporting on the other day. Or is it Kenda? You've speculated about this previously, I think. Yeah, did you see my thing I'm allowed to say? Strip for Paddock. Okay, sorry. I was on a YouTube channel. Okay, great.

when I was trying to get the right pronunciation I was told Kenda but anyway yeah obviously David Nolstein wrote this week that United are exploring that potential for the summer because they can't buy him now because he's 17 alright so stop giving me the eye and saying why isn't he in now it's against Brexit regulations so when he turns 18 in April that's when he's potentially going to be available and United are exploring it

Andy, how transformative do you think it would be for this team to sign a proper centre-forward? Is it as simple as that? I think Harry Kane would have scored goals for Manchester United and that is the striker who Eric Ten Hag wanted. So I think he could have...

transformed Manchester United not into a team that won league titles but you would have been buying a complete striker an experienced striker the reason he didn't come well there are many reasons for that and part of it is financial as well so given that there is I don't know a paucity of strikers in football good word by the way what does it mean cheers it means um

there's not so many of them about. Manchester United went for the next best option, they thought, of someone who is in demand. They went for Hoyland. They had really good scout reports on him. PSG wanted him. Tottenham Hotspur wanted him. They both offered more than what Manchester United did.

were offering him but Manchester United got the deal through and it just hasn't quite worked out as we would have all have hoped. I don't think anyone's given up on Hoyland yet. I don't think anyone's writing him off. He's not become a figure of fun yet but you've got to score goals if you play up front for any team, especially a big team like Manchester United. The idea of someone playing up front for one of the global giants and not scoring, they would get a lot more criticism than they get him at Manchester United but

Who else is there about? There are not that many, but United are so far off it. Just look at the top scorers chart. Not even coming close to it. And Marcus goes as we expect. There's another name who drops out of there. I can't see where the goals are coming from. For 10 minutes, I did like the idea of seeing Kobi Mainu being neat and tidy with this idea of a Madden Garnaccio running off him. And even when he dropped back, I think the first time the Palace defender did go with him and then he thought, you know what, this just isn't a threat.

at all and from 15 minutes in Palace looked entirely comfortable and Cobby faded and the team faded yeah it was definitely an issue that wasn't it that it was worked out so quickly let's talk about Marcus Rashford then I'm sure there'll be people screaming at their devices why have you not talked about Rashford yet we've had a lot of feedback

on the topic of Marcus Rashford and us talking about it in the last week or so. But as we speak now, he is finalising a move to join Aston Villa on loan until the end of the season. It's a pretty big moment this, Laurie. I don't think there's any question about that. There's going to be a lot of reflection, even though this is not a permanent deal. Where are we up to with it? Yeah, well, as of before kick-off, I've not checked since that point, but it was... What have you been doing on your phone all this time then?

googling the definition of the word paucity he is has been undergoing his medical for Aston Villa presumably a mild stomping ground the training ground is just off the M6 which is possibly part of a reason why he's ultimately agreed to join commute he can commute from Manchester if he so wishes but no I think it's a pretty stunning development given where we were on the last podcast

This had been proposed to me by that point, but we didn't really get into the Rashford situation then and it was still formulating, so I couldn't quite speak about it too clearly. But them even being in the reckoning for him was something that at the start of the window I just don't think would have been possible. The ambition was AC Milan,

Borussia Dortmund were in talks Barcelona were ultimately the team that he wanted to join they haven't been able to make it work financially Aston Villa have and it's quite interesting to hear how much they've committed to it in terms of 75% of his salary as a minimum potentially 90% depending on how he does which is a bit like the Jadon Sancho deal with Borussia Dortmund so clearly there's no loan fee but you know

for a player that was totally exiled from the team and squad to even get some money back considering the scale of his wages is significant and i wonder i mean he'll go right up there at the top of aston villa's earners now it'll be the highest earner because 75 is probably something around what 240 000 a week something like that possibly their biggest earner ever so it's a it's a big deal that they've committed to um they've been able to get it done because

Unai Emery is pushing for it so he is somebody that I think feels he can get a lot out of Marcus Rashford and I think Rashford has responded to that. You've also got the Champions League for them so he's actually eligible to play even though he's played for United in the Europa League he can play for Villa who are in the last 16 in the Champions League. I mean you just imagine him coming alive.

under the floodlights at Villa Park and having that kind of journey and he was asked actually of Amarino after the game would that be humiliating for United if he goes and does stuff there and he said no if you loan a player you hope that they can improve and do better and really the idea is that he goes there and then his value increases right and actually they've actually

they've got a buy option in there 40 million so i don't know we can maybe debate whether that's a fair price for rashford where it's underselling him or it feels decent in the circumstances perhaps but the idea would be that he goes and flourishes and yeah let's see but it does feel it's a significant moment because he's been at the club his whole life to then go to aston villa feels like if you'd said that a year ago well if you said that

a few weeks ago, you'd have gone, no, no chance. But this is now the reality of his situation. And I think it's worth reflecting on. I still report on Aston Villa regularly, Carl, so I need to be careful what I say. Yes, they are in the last 16 of the Champions League, but it's not Barcelona or AC Milan, is it? No, this is not the list of suitors that we touted towards the start of January when all of this occurred.

But also, he's going to be working with Unai Emery, a manager who absolutely makes players better and is very good at refining technique and whatnot. Extremely demanding. And he makes players run. He makes players run. Lots of meetings. Every single player I've spoken to at Villa who's worked under Emery has said, meetings, meetings, meetings, detail, detail, detail. Now you go, that can go one of two ways. Either Rashid gets to Aston Villa, goes, this is it, I need to...

become the player that I used to be I'm going to take on everything that Emery does or it ends up a bit a bit Louis van Gaal and other prolific attacking football players where the instruction doesn't quite go in and it all gets a bit weird look the idea of Marcus Rashford playing off a striker like Ollie Watkins is

in a Champions League game at Villa Park. Yeah, that's pretty entertaining. I think actually the manager is probably the happiest with all of this occurring. Maybe Thomas Tuchel? If you're the England manager, you go, oh, wow, Rashford and Watkins up front. That's a really good plan B for England if Harry Kane has another tweak in his back at the World Cup. That's good. Oh, this makes me sad. And it makes me sad not just as a Manchester United fan or as someone who Marcus once invited to his old primary school and talked about his love of Manchester United and other things.

The idea that Marcus Rashford's last game in Man United's shirt was a pretty poor performance against Victoria Pilsen where he had to be taken off by Ameren because he was in danger of picking up a second yellow because he had a very, very, very, very silly foul when he was already on a yellow card. Is that how it ends?

And it might be. That might be how it ends for him in the United shirt. I think I said earlier towards the start of the season, Marcus Rashford hasn't scored a Premier League hat-trick yet. Maybe he'll do it in the claret and blue of Aston Villa. Maybe he will do it for Aston Villa. I'd love for him to be really, really good at wherever he plays football. I'd love for him to be happy and happy playing football. The idea that that might not be at Manchester United, yeah, that hurts a little bit. Marcus Rashford is responsible for some of the happiest moments I've had in the last...

however many recent years watching Manchester United Football Club I've also had quite a few recent months watching Marcus Rashford play in my United shirt and going what are you doing this isn't you this isn't you you need to sort your head out and if him sorting his head out means leaving playing under a manager like Emery playing with players like Watkins got players like Onana and McGinn doing the defensive work for you also having players like Onana and McGinn giving you a word if you're not doing your defensive shift that might work

The Premier League's more fun when Marcus Rashford's in it and playing well. And he's not been doing that for Man United for a while, so things have to change. Our colleague Jacob Tanswell posted the other day about what Emery thinks of Rashford. He's been told that Emery thinks he can be one of the most dangerous attackers in world football and definitely wants him at Villa Park.

And is this the end of Rashford at United or do you think there is still a possibility that he goes there, he's rejuvenated and he then comes back to Manchester United in the summer for a second chance? We had similar chats, didn't we, about Anthony Martial when he went to Seville. When a player goes on loan, the outlook doesn't tend to be

an optimistic one. Part of me would love him to do well there, to come back and to be the player we all know he can be and hope that he can be. Emery is an excellent coach. I've been pretty consistent saying that on this podcast for many, many years. I remember going to see him at Villarreal and him analysing the Manchester United team he played against.

in real detail for a man and he didn't know who supported by the way and I'm like whoa this is this is why you're good at what you do and I really didn't like the way elements of the British media treated him and belittled him when he was a Arsenal yeah it isn't Barcelona or Dortmund

or Milan but the Premier League is very strong there are very few clubs who can afford to pay those wages it's the last 16 Champions League side so I shouldn't be saying it's not Barcelona or AC Milan because they're holding their own in Europe's elite competition that's the standard of this club at the moment Villa is a big club Birmingham is a big city Villa have won the European Cup I've been bumping into Villa fans this season travelling around Europe and having really nice chats with them and you know they are a huge club who've done well in recent years

He'll join the players who live in Manchester, travel down the M6 each day. There's a feature article, isn't it? There used to be one big eight-seater, I think it was, which went from Worsley to Leicester every day. I don't know anyone who's ever covered Leicester City, so I'll check it out with a Leicester City journalist. I got a lift from Wolves last week with Sam Johnson. He's another one. I once went down to... Whoa, rewind. You got a lift where, with who, what? I went to Wolves to interview a player and I bumped into Sam Johnson and Sam's a great lad.

and he said what are you doing now I said I'm getting a train back to Manchester and he said do you want a lift so I said yeah so he gave me a lift and we went up the M6 carpools are fascinating you've got the big football cities like Manchester and Liverpool and you've got carpools leaving them every morning to supply players in places like Preston and Morecambe and Accrington and

Mancs and Scousers they produce footballers now I never thought Marcus Rashford would be one of them leaving Manchester to play for Villa Carl used a word which is my word on this whole thing sad sad that it's come to this there is so much mitigation you know Marcus has made mistakes United have made mistakes I wouldn't put the blame on anybody on one party but it's really really sad that it's come for this

If I'm looking at it brightly, a change can be as good as a break and he may benefit from that. Is it enough of a change? Well, this is the big question, right? Because the issues that we've reported on and certainly that Manchester United feel he's got are to do with social life around Manchester and then not being able to put in the kind of performances in training that are required and Amarant's been

consistent on that in terms of saying I just want him to train better and obviously he went pretty strong when he then said I'd rather put my goalkeeping coach who's 63 and has got a limp on the bench than a player that doesn't give the maximum and obviously the context was a question about Marcus Rashford so

Will that take him out of the Manchester bubble that he seems to have been occupied by most recently? I don't know. As we said before, I think the plan is for him to commute. Maybe he can get a lift down with Sam Johnson. I don't think they came through the academy together quite at the same time. Sam's older, isn't he? A few years older. But still, I'm being a little bit facetious there. I do wonder, and this will be the really fascinating litmus test because

There's been players that have felt that the Manchester United...

I don't know, ecosystem has drained them and then they've gone elsewhere and done well. You think of Jesse Lingard on loan at West Ham and that was certainly taking him out of the Manchester scene as well. Going down there, did brilliantly. But then that was kind of then the peak of it and there was an issue with United allowing him to go on to a permanent deal and it got very messy. You know, you wonder what will happen this summer if that's a similar scenario. But you do sort of wonder if, OK, if he gets a fresh perspective, different group of players, there's not...

I mean, there will be still the expectation on him. There'll still be certainly the tension on him. But it's not the same as the Manchester United attention. Yeah, let's say because it is a fascinating situation. Just to be clear then, as far as you understand it, an amount to sign him in the summer is part of this deal. A pre-agreed amount of 40 million quid is on the table for Villa to do that if they want to. Yes, yes. I don't know...

I would imagine there's some kind of clauses. Like I said, I'm kind of speculating here, but for them to trigger it or for him to agree to it, would he go to them if they're not a Champions League club? Obviously, he'd surely have a say in that, right? And also his salary right now,

he wouldn't be getting that salary at Aston Villa. So what's the kind of breakdown on how that gets compensated, the gap in terms of his remaining contract? I don't know these questions, but yeah. They're very good at inserting these clauses into contracts and they're also very good at not revealing these clauses until the deal goes through. I always remember how...

you know this gentleman's name, but when Jack Grealish went to Manchester City, we eventually found out how so many causes were activated once City were in the Champions League and Villa weren't in the Champions League and how it became Grealish was allowed to go for 100 million.

They're just good with footnotes, is the glib way of putting it. So I imagine Laurie will find this stuff out eventually, including that man's name who I completely forgot. Who's in charge of the lyrics? Monkey. He means Christian Purslow. There he is. He's not there now, is he? So Carl, he's not done this deal. No, but Villa are historically and have been historically very good at footnotes and also just doing things when a lot of us aren't watching. And is 40 million fair for a player of Marcus Rashford's ability and history and pedigree?

searching for the right word there. It's a good question. I was just thinking that. It sounds like a lot of money, but wind back three years. Well, in some ways, it doesn't sound like a lot of money at the same time. Well, three years ago, he was 100 million. He was considered 100 million footballer, wasn't he? But then maybe the market had peaked because, you know, Jadon Sancho, Borussia Dortmund asked for 110 million for him and we thought we were getting a steal, getting him for 75 or whatever United played for him.

him. £40 million from an academy prospect is slightly different to £40 million from a player who hasn't come through the youth system but it's not just the transfer fee Ian, his wages are huge. He's one of the best paid footballers in the world and it's a big gamble for Aston Villa as well.

Villa, if they can get back into the Champions League, they're actually quite ambitious. I remember going back seven or eight years watching them in the second division playing Birmingham City. They've really come a long way. They've got plans to redevelop Villa Park to get the capacity back above 50,000.

Birmingham's probably punched under its weight as a city. It's the third city after Manchester and London. They've got billionaire owners as well, Andy, right? Yeah, and they also have to comply with the same financial rules as Manchester United. They have just sold John Duran for a lot of money to Saudi, so that does give them a lot of wriggle room as well because he was not bought for anything like the 70-odd million quid that he's been sold for. It's a drop-down. Manchester United...

may not be as good as Aston Villa as a team at the moment but when you go from being a Manchester United player with the profile that Marcus has had to go in it is it is a drop down and he will have a chance to prove people wrong he actually has to prove people wrong because there's going to be so much scrutiny on him there if he's vengeful I'm like I'm going to show the you know

The dip in my form is not just down to me, it's on other people as well. But if he just continues to fade, and we hear the same things about Marcus and Emery, is he going to get straight into the team? I don't think there's a guarantee. It's a huge question that, isn't it? When we were first discussing this with people, we were like, he doesn't get any ahead of Watkins, right? Watkins is his guy, he's absolutely backed Watkins. They've turned down a bid from Arsenal for £60 million to keep Watkins in the team. And it doesn't...

The system they play is kind of like a, forgive me if I'm wrong, but it's like a narrow kind of 4-4-2 almost. Morgan Rodgers is playing brilliantly this season, so it's going to be really intriguing to see when and how he fits in. But he has to play because he's going to be earning so much money. He'll fit in, I presume, in one of the wide midfielder positions because they do have wingers as options like Leon Bailey, who hasn't actually played that much this season in fairness. But it has a lot. There's been John McGinn in that position a lot. Morgan Rodgers, who's a bit more narrower position,

in that position who's been there lately as well Jacob Ramsey's been there as well yeah Ramsey played on the left Rashford's not like any of them apart from maybe Leon Bailey I suppose no he's a different option for Emery and Emery likes having different attacking options he had Diaby before as well of course yes if only to bring that different attacking option off the bench after

plan A is soften up the defence in one way look does Marcus Rashford start for Aston Villa that's up to Marcus Rashford we've just had 50 days of a manager talking to the press again and again are you counting days now I saw it in one of Laurie's pieces

We've just had however long, however many press conferences where Ruben Amrin has told assembled media in the football world that Marcus Rashid isn't doing a thing. And that thing could be training or that thing could be something else. And I'm sure when Emery gets a first look at Rashid, he's probably going to go, right, let's figure out what the thing you haven't been doing is and let's see if you can do it because you're probably not going to be in my starting lineup yet. There are a lot of people out there

think this is the end for Marcus Rashford and think this is going to be the beginning of Rashford fading out from football's top table and Rashford now has two choices he can prove him right by not playing to the best of his ability or get in the gym he can do the thing he needs to do and he can get out of whatever personal

difficulties he's experiencing right now that has stopped him from playing to his best ability and show everyone how good he can be because at 27 years of age I know he started at 18 he should have a lot more football left in him but he has to want it. Okay I think that's a good place to leave it on Talk of the Devils

It goes without saying, obviously, this deal is not done yet as we record at 20 to 6 on Sunday evening, but keep a very close eye on the Athletic. It will be confirmed on there as soon as we have the information. Remember, the deadline is 11pm on Monday evening and the Athletics Transfer live page will be running between now and then with all the very latest on outgoings and maybe an incoming yet to be determined at Old Trafford. We'll see. We're certainly an outgoing at Old Trafford.

because we've had the finger from the security guards as usual. But we're going to leave you there. So Andy, thank you very much for joining us. Carl and Laurie, thank you for being here alongside me as well. And thanks for your company listening along. We'll be back later on in the week to preview Leicester City, Ruud van Nistelrooy and the FA Cup. Let's hope for better. Take care. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

It's the final week of the transfer window, and that sound you can hear is David Ornstein's phone blowing up. I'm Ayo Akinwaleru, and you can join me, David, and our esteemed reporters every day on the Athletic FC podcast as we leave no stone unturned on picking every major deal. You know, this is a major development, and let's see how it goes forward. Don't miss a beat with the Athletic FC podcast. Listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.