Bruno and Ugarte salvage point at Goodison Park
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This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. I am stood alongside Lawrence Whitwell. We are inside...

Goodison Park still after Manchester United's final visit here ended in a two-all draw. Your guess is as good as mine as to where that comeback came from. Absolutely incredible finish from Manchester United after what was a pretty dire 70 minutes or so. But it was Bruno Fernandes and Manuel Ugarte who got the goals and we look forward to Ipswich Town on the podcast as well, who are the visitors to Old Trafford in what is being dubbed a six-pointer.

surely we're not at that point are we we'll talk about that too Andy Mitton's with us as well joining us from Istanbul you might have seen on social media what he's been up to I won't do a complete spoiler at this point because I'm sure we'll talk about it on a future podcast but Laurie what was that?

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it was probably 70 minutes of the worst football I think I've seen this season, maybe for a long time actually. And that is saying something given the catalogue of atrociousness that we've witnessed because there was nothing there. There was no threat. There was nothing.

people getting in each other's way there was a lack of intensity all over the pitch obviously it took until the 41st minute for Ugarte to have the first shot from distance went wide there was nothing to get excited about and it obviously turned on Bruno Fernandes being able to

pluck a free kick into the corner of the net and then United did show some life and there was actually some energy and attempts to get back into the game. Obviously it comes out with a 2-2 result. There was a lot of enjoyment I think in the away fans. They were really giving it some. They were still invested and even at the end after final whistle there was a connection there between the players who went over and the fans. Clearly it also needed some VAR intervention that I am surprised got involved but equally

I don't think it was a penalty and I think we know from our experience with Ashley Young that he can do that in the box. I don't know what you mean. Yeah, I mean, it's a point closer to survival, dare I say. Jesus Christ.

And yeah, I mean, they can kind of get away from this licking their wounds and it wasn't as bleak. At 2-0 it felt like this is going to be absolutely horrendous and then you start asking bigger, broader questions, which are still there, but perhaps they don't get asked just at this moment. Yeah, I have to admit, I text Laurie halfway through the second half and said, do we really have to do this podcast at the end, Andy? Yeah.

You know, we've summoned the enthusiasm. We've got lots of people, messengers every week saying, how on earth are you still doing these podcasts? But at least there was some positivity in that game, wasn't there? I mean, it's a great free kick from Bruno Fernandes and Agate's first Manchester United goal as well. Could have been even more. There was a couple of late flourishes and then the VAR situation, which was just comical, really, wasn't it? The free kick from Bruno was perfectly executed and the last 20 minutes was worth watching. But as Laurie says, the preceding...

70 minutes was a struggle. The first half was almost as bad as Leicester a couple of weeks ago. And you're just slumping. You're thinking, how low can we go? I watched it in a pub. There were two lads next to me. I didn't speak to them. I think they were Manchester lads or Northern English lads.

And watching them in the first half was like watching someone give birth. It was horrible. The pain. Andy, giving birth is a beautiful thing. Yeah, but you get a result at the end of it, don't you? Well, a baby, yeah. I'm tangling myself up here. But it was painful watching these lads. So watching Manchester United is like childbirth, basically. I could tell that it was doing the reading. And they left at half-time. They just got up and went home.

I don't know. Maybe they listen to this podcast. Maybe they don't. They did miss Bruno's finish. Ugarte's goal, the control for that was pretty impressive. And I sort of set up at that point, come on. And I hate watching football in pubs. It's just, I just do. I find you're distracted. At one point, I'm wondering a little bit towards, you know, the Turkish second division game on another screen. A pretty chaotic last game.

10 minutes with all the VAR stuff and I thought at one point there's going to be a winner here but no it wasn't to be a two-all draw is not a bad result but so many questions we should you know do a podcast to talk about these things yeah maybe we should um you know I don't want to sort of completely extinguish any sense of positivity from the two-all draw I mean the team nearly did that themselves by conceding that penalty right at the end um

I mean, it's pretty clear that obviously Manchester United felt that it wasn't a penalty. Everton felt that it should have been a penalty. Once it was given, though, considering De Ligt and Maguire had both had a little tug, I'm surprised it was overturned. Were you? Yeah, very, very surprised. Just because as soon as you see, there's a replay where I think De Ligt's got a bit of Ashley Young's shirt and if you pause it, it looks like a

I'm never sure on freeze frames, though, you know, because people tug and pull shirts all day long, don't they? Exactly. I mean, that's kind of what I'm getting towards in the sense that... Hurry up, then. Sorry. I thought we'd have a nice time to take all this in, this glorious event that we've just witnessed whilst we're still, you know, pitch level at Goodison Park, just to give you a sense of where we are. We're right at the bottom of...

at Goodison Park, obviously the last time that United will play here. And we're literally pitch level. We're probably about at the level that Ruben Amram was watching that game from for most of it because he was crouching down from like the first 60 seconds. I wonder what his exact view of the shirt pull was. I mean, he said after the game, it was a soft penalty in England. You like the physicality. It's never a penalty in my eyes. You know, it's clear that Ashley Young...

This is what he does, right? He comes on with an intention to frustrate and irritate. There was a moment actually after United had scored the first goal where he went down and took his time getting back up because he could sense that United were building momentum. He's doing the right thing from an experience point of view. He's a competitor, isn't he? He's a massive competitor. And if he was going to win his side a penalty at the end of the game, you cannot fault him for that. He's done it for United. But I just don't think it was ever a penalty. But equally, as soon as you've got a tangle like that,

I was surprised that VAR intervened. I was also surprised that they sent him to the monitor, like, you know, and then he's looking at it again. But yeah, I mean, thankfully from a United point of view, it was overall because I think...

Would that have been worse than a 2-0 defeat? Getting back into the game at 2-2 and then only to lose at 3-2 where Bruno Fernandes is giving the ball away in a weird area, having rescued the side. It would have felt awful. Well, it certainly would have completely extinguished any sense of coming away from here with something to hold on to and something to build on.

We're about 20 yards away basically from the penalty area where the penalty was given. I was here for the Merseyside derby, was that just last week maybe or the week before? And obviously the end of that game was absolutely crazy as well and

Then we were joking, saying, can you imagine being the referee and being sent to the monitor to have a look whether this goal should be allowed or not after James Tarkovsky has scored? This was slightly different, but I think United were due a decision, a borderline one anyway, considering the way this season has gone and considering the number of emails we've had at different points about decisions and officials. Well, there was Harry Maguire went down in the box, didn't he, for what you'd probably class as a similar amount of contact. Equally, I don't think it's a penalty. Come on!

I'm just trying to provide a counterbalance. Yeah. Andy, I interviewed Diogo Dalo after the game. He basically said that he didn't feel that United had enough respect for the plan in the first half, in possession, out of possession. Ruben Amarin basically said that at half-time it wasn't about ripping things up and changing things. It was about reminding every single player that they needed to play well.

the way that they trained all week. I thought it was interesting because I think we were all expecting changes at half-time considering how lacklustre that first half had been. What do you make of even the fact that the team's not respecting the plan? I'm a bit conflicted whether I think it's a good thing that they got there or a bad thing that they were nowhere near it in the first place. Well, he's right. United looked to be in a tailspin in that first half.

So if they're not respecting the plan, my first question is, why not? What are you training on all week for you then to forget about? Because the one thing Ruben Aminoum craved was those weak segments with his players. So if that's falling apart immediately, and it did fall apart immediately because Everton scored pretty early on. We saw how bad the first half was.

And it's just massively concerning when I watch it. And you just, I thought Dorgu was the best player of the first half. And then I'm watching him thinking, how long before you get ground down by the Manchester United machine like the rest of them?

We can have a little bit of optimism because of the way the game finished. I was thinking if United did win, I was going to let Laurie have his statement victory. I spoke to some fans before the game about how a game there in 1990 was a turning point, where Man United beat Arsenal away and then beat Everton away, won the Cup Winners' Cup that year and started to pick up from that point. A 2-0 draw is not a turning point, but given how good Everton have been,

I think the result is okay. I think the last 25 minutes was okay, but the first 70 minutes wasn't. I still feel like United thrive in chaos. I still think that this team, despite everything that's been said and all the plans, respected or otherwise, it still feels like when they're playing, is it called on clutch? I think I've messed that up, but when they're playing clutch, if that also makes sense.

They're at their best. I mean, the other thing, Sam's been in touch on email. He said, another dismal first half of football. I've had enough of the talk of formations and managers. The goals we concede have nothing to do with formation. That was the thing in the first half. As bad as United played, the goals were nothing about a lack of shape or formation, were they? No, I mean, that first one was absolutely abysmal because United had, I

I thought four, but then I looked it back and it's probably like six chances to clear it. And it's just sort of headers, players jumping into each other. I mean, that continues throughout the game, but players going for the same ball. And eventually it breaks to Beto and he pucks it in. And even the second goal, it's a simple ball down the flank that then suddenly exposes United 2v1. And obviously Maguire waits for the ball to drop rather than goes and attacks it. Onana, I don't know if he could do better with the parry as well. I think he kind of struck it quite weirdly, the guy that took the shot earlier.

off his right and then left but either way both goals are so soft and Amrin knows that so you say okay well you get more out of these plays you kind of

energise them to the right degree but I do feel like this is stuff that goes back beyond him obviously it clearly does and so it's down to the players to actually just do the jobs that they're supposed to do and he didn't change the formation second half and then they were a better team I think Everton actually lost the nerve a bit as well later on certainly

I don't know if you want to get into it now, but when he took Hoyland off, I mean, Hoyland just had another anonymous display for me and Chido Obi came on. Clearly, he's very rough around the edges. He's a young player, but what he did was actually sort of drop into that space in between defence and midfield to get those sort of balls and the Everton defenders didn't want to follow him there, whereas Hoyland feels like likes to engage and push him. That was like, you know, what...

the Everton defenders absolutely love to do so that caused a bit of confusion it was an interesting sort of response actually from the away fans when Chido was coming on because there was cheers at Hoyland coming off I think it was more for Chido coming on it felt like that yeah a young player started chanting Chido Chido yeah well I know exactly Rio Ferdinand says obviously he's sort of similar kind of sound isn't it to that noise it's an easy one to you know get behind isn't it when you hear it for the first time so yeah but I think that a

combination of various factors played into that becoming a bewildering 2-2 and yeah you might be right Ian back to your original point for the rest of this season it's just going to be let's see what the team can actually produce in these moments of strange football Yeah Andy the

Again, I sort of feel a bit conflicted by it because, you know, Garnaccio came on, Casemiro came off, Bruno Fernandes dropped deeper. He seemed to thrive in that role, trying to sort things out, trying to make things happen, taking risks, sometimes taking too many risks. But when United are like that, that's when they seem to get points out of games. When they're not like that, when they're like they were in the first half, even if they weren't playing the way that Amorim wanted them to play, I don't know, it's...

it feels like they're waiting for stuff to happen all the time. They're waiting to react to something or they're waiting to be pushed into action almost. Bruno's penalty in the Brighton game is the only first half goal we've scored since Forrest away. That's now 17 games. So for all the training, Manchester United are taking time to get going and some. And we're seeing repeat behaviour. We're seeing it all the time. And I think Bruno...

I said last week on the pod, what must he be thinking playing in this team? Because he's the best player. He's having a difficult season as well. But that was a lovely free kick, which he took. Garnaccio, when he came on, did make a difference. I thought there were some Everton players flying into him. Leave him alone. He's a kid. Obviously, he's touched a nerve last year with that season before last with that amazing goal there. Chido...

He's raw, as Laurie says. Fans are desperate. They want to see him. And Rasmus Hoyland is just having anonymous game after anonymous game.

I don't want to double down on him and start hammering him because that doesn't help anybody. His confidence has gone, hasn't it? Yeah, even us saying that doesn't help him. But we also have to tell it how it is, don't we? Because if he was playing well, we'd be complimenting him. We can't pretend that things are working out for him. And I think you must be mentally tough if you're him anyway. But if you play up front for Manchester United, there's a lot of pressure with that. But he is anonymous.

Xerxe has his moments. I thought of Casemiro. I mean, I remember Casemiro...

playing his first proper game against Everton a couple of years ago, I watched and thought, wow, you are the best player by a distance out of both of these teams. And he's so far from that point now. If you want some positives, Dorgowin in the first half seemed very involved. A couple of mistakes in him as well. Gave the ball away for a corner. Put a ball in which was too close towards the goalkeeper when Hoyland is getting into positions.

And he looks frustrated, and I've seen that happen a couple of times as well. Xerxe appealed for his handball, but then he had a pretty tame shot at the goalkeeper. So United were much more productive in the last half hour, but even before the goals, United had more possession. But what does that mean when you're 2-0 down? Well, they didn't have a shot on target until 70 minutes. I don't know if we've said that on the podcast yet, but that...

That basically was the point where it felt like they actually were kicked into action and got going in the game. Just on Chido Obi, Laurie, obviously he's had three minutes of the match at Spurs. He's had, what, about half an hour in the end here at Goodison Park. Seamus Coleman's just having a run out on the Goodison Park pitch. He's not played today, but he still looks pretty sharp, to be fair to him.

Is there a chance that he pushes for a starting spot or is that too much for a lad of this age and this experience? I think that would be too much. But then again, I thought that he wouldn't get first-team involvement this season necessarily. I know that that was the pathway that was spelled out to him and why it appealed to leave Arsenal to come to United last summer. But I think that there are edges to his game that aren't quite as...

as what you might like from a starting centre forward in the Premier League. This is a different situation, isn't it? You're 2-0 down. I can't remember exactly when he came on, but you're down in a game. As Bruno, I think, said post-match, there's nothing to lose at that point, so get him on the pitch. We've got a few United fans still in the ground actually enjoying it, giving us... They must be listening to the podcast. They're giving us some United chants. Good lads.

So, yeah, I mean, I would be surprised if he stuck. It's just another... Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just like... It does feel like another step, doesn't it? Yeah, and particularly to Hoyle. I mean, you talk about his confidence there and I know we shouldn't, you know, just protect players for the sake of it, but what would that do then to sort of be told you're actually, you know, second fiddle to this guy? Maybe you could dress it up as freshening up, rotation, just taking him out of the firing line, but...

Surely all strikers want to start every game just to see if they can get that chance and get that goal that gets the momentum going. But yeah, I think he did affect the game more than Hoyland in the moments that he had. Yeah, if you want to know more about Manchester United's striker situation, I'll point you in the direction of Talk The Devil's Extra, which was a special focus on the strikers at Manchester United on the podcast feed last week. If you haven't listened to that, go and have a look.

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Right, I think the point does help us, obviously, with the league table. I don't really want to get into the sort of survival thing that you were talking about earlier, Laurie, but just to stop this narrative, a win against Ipswich, Andy, would just help, wouldn't it? Just help sort of bat away some of these suggestions that...

I've been circling since Amarant spoke about it in the press conference weeks ago, to be fair, and United have just not been able to get rid of it because they just seem to have been sucked further and further down the table. I've got a piece in the Athletic today where I talk about six-pointers used to be at the top end of the table. Now they're at the bottom end of the table. Manchester United need to be Ipswich Town. I think the worry for all of us is the form of Old Trafford and when lower teams come to Old Trafford. And that's the next game and it's a big game.

The one thing this season hasn't done is faded into nothing because every game matters, even if it's for the wrong reasons. I'm a bit jealous of you lads stood in front of the Goodison Road stand there lads. Give you a little history lesson. I'm sure you can't wait for it. That stand was the biggest in Britain when it was built in 1971. Look at you looking round. Love it.

until Chelsea built their main stand that was the biggest stand in Britain and it seats 12,500 and people thought that it was too expensive and nobody would ever build a stand as big as that again the fact that Old Trafford Sir Alex Ferguson stand is over twice the size of it in terms of capacity and Everton are leaving Goodison because it's too small

But yeah, I'll miss that top balcony above you. I'll miss that stand. I'm envious that I'm not there. I absolutely love Goodison Park. I think it's my favourite away ground, to be honest. When this goes, it'll probably be Villa Park that it passes on to. And United have had some brilliant memories there as well, haven't we? I just like the rawness of it all, really. The new stadium looks fantastic. I've had a look myself a while ago now, but speaking to people around the club, they are very, very excited about it. And obviously that

I think there's five games left now of this stadium. But anyway, let's get back to the Ipswich game. Really important game again, isn't it? You just want to see more, don't you? See more than what we've been seeing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, just to briefly touch on your situation

talk or the talk that you tried here he goes well I mean Ruben Amroun himself said we need to survive the season again after this match you know United going into this game 12 points ahead of Ipswich are you like okay that's that's enough of a buffer right I mean Ipswich aren't going to win four more matches than United but obviously if they then went and won at Old Trafford it's going to be

It becomes a bit tighter. The current trajectory of United, points per game for the whole season, we'll put them on 44 points. Obviously, West Ham went down with 42. The current trajectory at the moment, one point a game under Ruben Amarin, puts them at 42. You've thought about this, haven't you? I've just been doing the maths just because I'm thinking...

I just want to make sure that there's no chance. Well, that's why beating Ipswich is crucial, just to stop you making these calculations and everyone else. I would love that. Thank you. If United could go and do that, that would be absolutely fantastic. And I think just one player that Andy has briefly mentioned that I kind of wanted to touch on was Patrick Dorgue, because I felt...

as Andy said, particularly in that first half, but even in that second half, he was getting the ball and driving with it. And he actually touched the ball the second most of any player on the pitch, 89 touches behind Bruno, who had 109. He's been bought for this system, though, hasn't he, as well, which again gives a little bit of encouragement, maybe. Yeah, for sure. And you could see that, obviously, playing on the left again. It was telling, though, quite striking, I don't know, in a good way or a bad way, how often United players were looking to him.

in those attacks because you're thinking this is a 20 year old kid who's playing in his third game for United really shouldn't be looked to as the guy to make a difference but he was getting the ball going with it putting the crosses in now obviously the crosses weren't absolutely t-top but you know hopefully that will come in time and the aggression that that was the aggression that you were talking about that was missing at least he had that in the first half like he wanted to actually be an agent a proactive person in the game rather than a reactive person and I think I could be wrong but did he win the free kick that

eventually led to Bruno's goal it might have been Garnaccio but I thought he won a free kick I think it was Garnaccio and then it was the handball then from Decore for the second free kick which then Bruno scored from okay so but I felt like he won he certainly won a free kick down in that channel that you might be right he gets the ball and he just manages to get his body in the way and it's that kind of and I'm not saying he's actually trying to keep going with the ball but he's making them either foul him or he gets away with the ball he's not leaving it to chance where they could potentially get the ball so I thought that was really encouraging and hopefully hopefully

that can carry on against Ipswich. No mugs though are the Ipswich. Is this Kieran McKenna's first return to Old Trafford as well? He'll have a little bit of motivation based on that too, I would think. Yeah, they beat Tottenham away, didn't they? But they are out of form and it looks like

They are favourites to go back down. As I speak, Wolves are winning and if Wolves can hold on, that would be a five or six point gap between them and the bottom three. Leicester City, under another former Manchester United player, Ruud van Nistelrooy, are really, really struggling. They're losing all the time. Their home form is worse than Man United's and they can't even score at home. But Ipswich, as we saw at the game when Ruben Amarin arrived, because of course that was his first match,

I don't want to say anything clichéd here, but they are no mugs. Kieran McKenna will be absolutely vengeful to prove a point. Kieran McKenna was sounded out about being Manchester United manager to replace Eric Ten Haag. Kieran McKenna was well respected as a coach under Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. Been with Ole all morning, speaking to him about Kieran McKenna.

He's still very close to him. Getting it to switch up twice is a major, major achievement. There's always going to be a struggle for them to stay up. At some point, I thought they would stay up. At this point, I don't. But if they won at Old Trafford, and my worry is when I've seen Leicester and Southampton and the other teams come to Old Trafford, and when I see that Wolves have still got to come to Old Trafford and West Ham come to Old Trafford, the teams who were all around Manchester United...

Something has got to change at Old Trafford. The anxiety from the players, maybe the fans have got to change. Maybe the fans have got to be more supportive. I don't think the fans are bringing toxicity into the stadium. I don't think the fans are being negative, but maybe the fans need to bring more. Maybe the players need to feel that the fans are really, really behind them. And I know that's hard when those fans might be asked to pay more for the season tickets or the match tickets next season. I know it's really hard when the team...

are so poor and there's a chicken and egg here because you could argue that the team should lift the fans and not the other way around. But these are desperate times and desperate measures are needed. And if United keep going the way they're going at Old Trafford,

then Laurie's working out those points is going to start to look pretty ominous. I'm glad that he's done that because he hasn't looked at the points all season. He's looked under the points under the new coach. And it is a pitiful average. And that has to change. I feel that

Had United lost to Everton and not had that rally in half an hour, you would have had more people jumping on, not a bandwagon, but just saying, I want it to work out with him, but this just isn't working out. And I feel that had Everton won, this would have been more negative, not just us obsessing over the results, it's the performances as well. And I do wonder if Patrick Dorgue was brought in to play the system and he looks good, great. But what about the other players?

Because we're not seeing evidence that this system is working. And if it's a short-term game, OK. But the team has to stay up. And as I keep mentioning now, and this is massive, it's almost £4 million for each Premier League place. If you're dropping members of staff,

or making cuts or putting ticket prices up to save a million or two million. The easiest way of getting more money in the bank is by getting up that Premier League table. And that's something they've been unable to do all season. Yeah, nine points away from the top half as things stand now. I mean, we're recording this while the 3pm kick-offs are at

just the start of the second half. West Ham are winning at Arsenal, as we record, so they're level on points, on 30 points with Manchester United. Wolves are winning, like you mentioned before. Ipswich losing against Spurs, so at least that does mean there is a 13-point gap to the bottom three. It also means that there's a five-point gap potentially opening up between Ipswich and the teams above them, so that is a timely knock to their confidence ahead of coming to Old Trafford if the scores stay like this.

While we're here, let's talk about the Europa League draw. Because that's the thing, you know, they can write off the league season if they want to. The points look like they're probably at the stage where they don't really do need to worry about survival, despite your calculations, Laurie. But the Cups, they have to raise themselves in the league to at least have some momentum for the Cups, don't they? Yeah, I mean...

Yeah, because you don't want to go into those kind of matches cold, do you? Where you're sort of thinking, right, can we actually spark something? You want a bit of positivity and momentum. You can't pick and choose when to play, can you? No, and they have to get into that rhythm of understanding and trusting each other so that when there comes those tense moments in those games, as they inevitably will do...

able to understand and know how to react and it feels very brittle and fragile doesn't it it could easily have been an Everton win today more so than easily it probably should have been but they got away with a point and that perhaps gives them a little bit of muscle memory for those matches going to Real Sociedad thinking actually we're not out of this yet if it takes a

a wrong turn obviously ideally like them to get a good start in a game and make a platform to build on rather than first half goal maybe well that would be yeah it's it's ridiculous isn't it how long that is going on for now but yeah

I keep banging that drum. If they somehow manage to win the Europa League, then they're winning a trophy, they're in the Champions League, and the picture is flipped quite dramatically. Yeah, obviously Fulham in the FA Cup is next up in terms of the cup competitions, but this trip...

or this tie, I should say, against Real Sociedad. Andy, what do you think about it? I think that Real Sociedad are one of the better teams left in it. I worry that United, to win the Europa League, are going to have to play well over 180 minutes. I would have said to you that Real Sociedad are one of Spain's success clubs.

in recent years. If you look at the league finishes in the last six years, six fifths, six fourths, six last season, but they're actually out of form now. They're 12th in the league. It is a wonderful city, one of the best in Europe for any United fans who didn't manage to go on previous trips. Try and get there. It's not easy to go to.

Before the last game, I spoke to two of their players, Mikel Mourinho, who's now at Arsenal, and Robin Lennarmond, who's a defender, and he moved on as well. When I was speaking to Robin, I'm thinking, you're going to be at Man City in four years. And that's what they do. They're a really, really good football club for developing players. Thankfully, he hasn't gone to Manchester City. Now, the other thing with Real Sociedad, or L'Ariel, as you should call them,

Before they play Manchester United, they've got a away game at Barcelona on March 2nd. And they're playing a team called Real Madrid midweek this week. So they've got some really tough games. And then between the two United games, they're playing against Sevilla. So they've got very, very difficult matches. I like some of the players a lot. I like the manager a lot.

They're in the Copa del Rey semi-final. It is the toughest game Manchester United could have hoped for, but the fact that they're so out of form gives me a bit more hope than maybe I would have had. But then United have just got to click. So that is L'Oreal. They brought 6,000 to Old Trafford when they came a few years ago in the Champions League.

We've never played them and now we've played them, what, three times in a decade? Six times in total. What did you think of the draw? What, in terms of who United have got or how they did it? Well, they got the route to the final. How they did it. We take too long. We can establish that. They told us we could get one of four teams and then we'll pick which side you go on. Yeah, just tell us who we've got. But having the route to the final was interesting, wasn't it? Yeah, I mean, you can pick your European trips, right? So, yeah, I feel like...

There's an FCSB tie potentially coming up. We can reread the piece that Andy wrote. I feel like I should have some redemption there, shouldn't I? If that is happening, I need to atone for my...

My aberration earlier this season. Yeah, I mean, I will actually be going via Bilbao to get to San Sebastian for this trip. So I'll let you know what it looks like. And hopefully we'll be all back there come May. It is May, isn't it? The final. So, yeah, I mean, I think it is just a case of it sounds like a football manager now, but one round at a time. It's just like, you know, you've got this team...

You can't really get excited about, OK, we'll beat them and then we'll do them and then actually we'll turn them over because... That's fair. You never even know what they're going to turn out like during a game, let alone from week to week. So, yeah, I think we'll... It's a bit more reassuring that Real Sociedad are having a difficult season because I do think that...

you know, at their best in recent years against this current United team, I think they'd win. So the fact that they're actually having a bit of a tough time, okay, gives United a chance. Our worst versus your worst. That's a bit of a twist on the best, our best versus your best, isn't it? Right. Thank you for everyone who got in touch as well. We had lots of angry emails, including Soren, who sent us a very angry email when Manchester United were 2-0 down and then replied,

to his own email at 2-2 saying, my argument still stands despite this unlikely comeback. Conor as well, who spotted me on the subs bench for Manchester United. I was waiting all game for Carlos Fernandes to give me a shout to go and warm up, but it never came, unfortunately. Maybe next time. But we'll leave it there on Talk of the Devils. Obviously, we always appreciate you guys getting in touch. Devilspod at theathletic.com if you want to do exactly that. I hope you've enjoyed this

This sort of bite-sized episode, but we wanted to bring you it as quickly as possible after this game. And we'll speak to you again after Ipswich. Andy, enjoy the rest of your time in Turkey. Thank you for joining us, Laurie. Thanks for keeping me company here inside an empty Goodison Park. And we'll see you on the next one. Thanks for listening. Take care. Bye-bye.