Bruno staying, Mbeumo keen, but what about Sancho?
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. I'm going to say it again. Oh my goodness. This time I really mean it. So much has happened since the last time we recorded. It's absolutely silly. So much so that we brought our recording forward 24 hours to get it in your ears as soon as possible. To react to the news that Bruno Fernandes is staying at Manchester United, that Mateus Cunha has signed for Manchester United, that Brian and Boomer quite fancies playing for Manchester United. Oh,

And Jadon Sancho might have to play for Manchester United again. Maybe that last bit was going a bit too far, but Chelsea are sending him back. We need to react to all of that and more. To do it, there's only one way. We've got the band together, every single member. So hello, Karl Anka. Hello, Laurie Whitwell. And hello, Andy Mitten. My goodness, boys.

Just another 48 hours of MUFC, eh Andy? Yeah, it's crazy isn't it? I saw someone criticising Manchester United for inactivity in the transfer window the other day. You must have read it. I'm like, it's been open for like four hours, what you on? Just signed a player? So, given how bad United were last season and the league position, there seems to be a significant amount of optimism there.

going forward with the players who've signed, who want to come for Manchester United. I'm sure we'll discuss them, but we can't get carried away because it's only two weeks ago we were in Bilbao on the absolute floor. Yeah, there is that. This is sort of what everyone needed though, Carl, isn't it? A very fast start to the transfer window to try and move us on from that feeling of being on the floor in Bilbao. I'm sure quite a few of our listeners have seen The Godfather 3. I haven't. What's the plot that...

that he's referring to. There's a very famous moment in The Godfather 3 where Al Pacino in his kitchen spins around and goes, just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.

And that's pretty much how I felt on Monday evening when David Ornstein told me, Mr. Brian, and you're going for Mboumo, because that means I've been saying it wrong for years. Mboumo probably is correct. I tend to go for Mboumo. Look, if he becomes a Manchester United player, we'll all learn very suddenly, because that's very often what happens in Premier League football, isn't it? Yes. I have actually seen the Godfather 3 as well, but I just wanted to do the impression. And you did not disappoint me, Mr. Anker, so thank you very much.

Laurie, let's get into it then. We'll start with Bruno, actually, because I think that is the most important news. It was the start of the last podcast, us debating how we felt about the potential exit, but we don't have to worry anymore, do we? No, and I'm glad that I was absolutely on the money by saying this could be something that runs and runs. And then it obviously gets ended after about 48 hours. Well, literally about what?

half an hour before the news broke, you and I were saying, I think he's going. Do you think he's going? I think he could do, you know, reading into quotes from two weeks ago, picking the bones out, little scraps of detail that we had from people. But yeah, nice one Bruno. I'd have to think back to the last podcast because I've, you know, crossed various time zones since we recorded that. But I thought that I was saying that I think he'll ultimately stay. And I think,

in the fullness of his answers yesterday at Portugal's press conference which was very handily timed I mean it was interesting obviously the news broke Fabrizio Romano broke it didn't he yesterday morning and I wonder if that was deliberately timed so that then Bruno could speak at Portugal's press conference and put it all to bed at

in terms of Al-Hilal. I mean, we can maybe debate if there's some nuance within his answers in terms of competing at the highest level in Europe. Do you think there is? I don't think so. I think ultimately, you know, he's talking about how he spoke to Amarin, he spoke to his family, he's happy in Manchester, you know, United,

didn't want to sell him, but if they did want to sell him, then he might be open to it. It was intriguing, the kind of detail that he did go into. So clearly, as we reported, he was seriously considering this move. I mean, the amount of money on offer to him, you just have to really, don't you? And I mean, we might do some more on this in the days to come, but I think they even tried further Al Hillard to get him to change his mind than what's already been reported. So,

He was steadfast and said it wasn't about money. It's about his career and trying to, I think, get United to compete for those major trophies again and feeling that, OK, the moves that are being made in the market with Kunja, with Mbwemo, we need one of those... It's almost like if they did those things at the start of the season where players pronounce their own names, that'd be really helpful if they could do that. I've actually got access to it as well. Do you want to help us or inform us? Mbwemo would have done it the last...

Five years? However long he's been in the Premier League for. Mbwemo, I'm pretty sure it's Brian Mbwemo. So you do pronounce the M as well. I always get it wrong for some reason. It's one of those names that I've kind of just not really nailed. So anyway, hopefully... Probably because he played for Brentford. Well, he scored enough against United, didn't he, to sort of think I probably should recognise this guy's name. So I wonder if those moves are something that Fernandes has responded well to and it feels like, yeah, this story's been...

sort of ended just at the point where everyone was kind of fretting and worrying about what it might mean for the future. Yeah, it's interesting, Andy, that he is staying now because in some ways I thought the move for these two players was a sign that he might not be purely because they're players who will more than likely predominantly play in the number 10 position, which still feels like the most natural fit for Fernandes in Ruben Amorim's system. We'll talk about how it all fits together in just a

at the moment Carl's been writing articles about exactly how these players are going to fit in potentially to Manchester United's

for next season. But just on the point of Bruno Fernandes, do you see any nuance in what he's had to say or do you think this is a firm commitment that he wants to stay at Old Trafford to fight for the biggest things? I think it's a firm, credible commitment. As of Monday afternoon, Manchester United had heard nothing. No offer had been received. Clearly, United weren't naive enough not to think that there had been talks, but United were confident that

that Bruno, having spoken to Ruben Amorim, would do the right thing by the club and stay at Manchester United. As we said on the last podcast, money was a major factor here. Do you leave and cash in? But he's already one of the best paid players

in the world. I was pleased about it because he's, by a distance, Manchester United's best player. I still think the focus is going to be about number 10s rather than number 9s. And as for his name, just call him Brian. Call him Brian. There's not enough Brians about. Manchester United's best players...

I've been called Brian and it's not a name you hear as much as you used to. So we need to help with a resurgence of the name Brian. McClare, Robson. Well, can't we just call him Bri? Why waste syllables? I'm not going to pretend that I'm down on the street like you. His name's Brian and I shall be calling him Brian.

Why not? Yeah, well, he's got a sign first in order for us to decide exactly how to refer to him. Yeah, there is that. Yeah, we could cross that bridge when we come to it. Kyle, we've had some reaction to this, obviously. Jeremy, great news. Fernandes' stay in his commitment and leadership for this club is unquestionable. So a big question for me is what's his best position? I feel we need to know this and build around it.

And I think Jeremy means in this system for Ruben Amarin. How exactly do you see his position moving forward now? Because it's one thing that does need nailing. It was one of the uncertainties of Fernandes' season, despite the fact he played so well last year. The signing of Mateus Cunha means Bruno Fernandes will now be a central midfielder. He will play next to... You're pretty certain about that? I'm pretty certain about that now. You don't commit to spending 62 million on...

to play in that left-sided position without having to plan for Fernandes. I'm probably going to keep going back to this quote from Amorin when he was talking about Garnaccio and what he wanted from the right-sided tent, about how it's really important to have a left-footer on the right-sided tent. Fernandes' left foot isn't to the level or isn't to the dribbling ability that Amorin wants there. So that means Fernandes has to shuffle back, which means we also now have to have a look at who's going to be Fernandes' partner.

in that midfield pivot and also causes a few other alterations. But yeah, my far too early and a little bit foolish prediction for the 25-26 season is Bruno Fernandes plays more minutes in central midfield than as a number 10. Now, my far too early and a little bit foolish prediction for last season was that Diogo Dalla was going to play more minutes on the left-hand side than the right-hand side. So...

Yeah, there was a change in management, which maybe put pay to that prediction in October time or November, whatever it was. Let's get to some more of your messages. Like I say, we had lots of them. Kelly, I thought it was pretty clear that Bruno was being played in the eight position often because he was the best option there for creating from deep and it was just getting fresh legs and attack. If we had a number eight with his passing ability, then he probably would have spent more time.

As one of the number 10s, Adair Bruno had the second goals and assists of any Premier League player bar Salah. We were 15th. Fans saying sell him to rebuild. But I have 1000% more faith in Bruno continuing to do what he does on and off the pitch than I have in the club finding a replacement. Ashraia, this is interesting, Laurie. Is Bruno now solidified as a United legend? For young fans like me who got into football during the last few years of Sir Alex,

Bruno is one of the best we've seen. A shining light in the dark days and now leaving all that money at this age and staying when we need him the most. For me, it's not all about trophies. It's about the impact on the club. We really needed him for this rebuild and he's been one of the best players and he's always available. Or maybe I'm being too emotional because I was so worried he would go. What do you reckon?

Firstly, you're allowed to be emotional. This is a sport that plays on your emotions. So I think it's a good thing that you are invested and feeling it that way. We discussed this, didn't we, before the Europa League final where we thought if Bruno ends up leading them to that silverware, then that probably would push him over the edge of legendary status. Didn't happen and he didn't have his best game. But I do think this...

element this episode stitches into his general mythology at the club where you you do have these moments of you know players seeming like they're choosing football over finances and and yeah as Andy says he's already really well paid so I suppose at what point does more money really materially affect your life and then you're having to change from Manchester to Saudi Arabia and you know from

We see him around this kind of area that I live in. Certainly you see him enjoying himself. He can play with his kids. He's out with his wife. It's a nice life. So I think that is something to be factored into at all. But it does, yeah, it pushes him towards that status where people will remember him in years to come in a very fond way. And let's see how these final few years go in his career. He's still only 30, but it's at that age.

And this is an element that is intriguing and totally agree with Andy saying that there was no official confirmation from Al-Hilal in terms of what they would bid. There's some speculation, some scepticism, shall I say, rather, around were they definitely actually going to offer £100 million for him? I'd sort of heard £80 million, that they would potentially then go to £100 million. Now, United...

even with the sort of importance that Bruno has, would we even have had to consider that really? Because a 30-year-old, is he actually at the peak of his powers? Is he going to be dwindling from this point on? And I do wonder if somewhere in the background they were having this kind of debate as to say, well, actually, we could reinvest that money in a kind of younger profile. It would be a total reset. I think ultimately the kind of power, as we discussed on the last podcast, that Bruno has...

in terms of around the place with the academy players with the fans with the staff you know all those kind of little soft touches that he does to sort of show that this means more than just a kind of business i think that ultimately is invaluable and i don't think you can kind of put a price on that so and and yeah to the listeners point you know can you really definitely back them to spend the money in the right way to then improve the team um but it does you know

with all these positional questions as well, it does leave that as a bit of a debate, right? I mean, so say Brian does come in. He does seem that, you know, right-sided number 10 role. That's kind of where he's done his best work at Brentford. He's probably more out on the wing and then he cuts in. But I mean, he's phenomenal, isn't he? Coming in off that right flank and slotting in a left-footed finish. So you can see how him and Cunha would work as those two number 10s.

but Bruno and he has played deeper certainly and I agree with Carl I think he'll play more of his minutes there next season but I wouldn't rule out him playing as a number 10 next season as well because he has that's where he probably does his absolute best work you know around the box and threading those passes it does leave how did these all fit in exactly it leaves a question number nine that was the priority at the start of the season Liam De Lappe obviously chose Chelsea

who do they go for now? It's an intriguing subplot that Al-Halal are also after Victor Osherman, for example. So now they've actually got more money to commit to his wages. I'm told that that offer to him in terms of the amount of money that he was going to be offered is now going to be higher. And so, I'm not saying that United were definitely pursuing him, but he was one of the guys they were sort of considering. And so,

Al-Halal having that wider check button now is an intriguing aspect to it all. But I still personally think a number nine is required. Maybe they look at Rasmus Holden and think, OK, with support around him, he can then take that step. But yeah, I think it sounds fantastic. These are clearly guys that have scored goals in the Premier League if Mbouma does come in, and obviously Kunja is.

can they now fit together in a United team that then scores the same amount of goals and gets the better performances from all the teammates?

Oshiman, I'd be surprised. I get that United fans absolutely want a number nine. As for choosing your heroes, you can choose whoever you want to be heroes. There are Man United fans who remember players from the 70s who didn't win any league titles. To this day, they are their heroes. It's personal to you. Norman Whiteside is a hero for people who watch Manchester United in the 80s. What Bruno's done, it has...

upped his status. He's chosen to stay for Manchester United. Remember when Ole Gunnar Solskjaer turned down Tottenham Hotspur, even though he was offered basically guaranteed football and more money? Fans don't forget these type of things. And...

it is really good that he's staying and earlier on finally when I said on the floor in Bilbao that wasn't a dig at the United fans who were actually on the floor in Bilbao I just realised as soon as I said that quite literally I'm still getting horror stories you know one lad come up to me the other day and said he came out the ground and he needed a number two

and he couldn't get back to where he was staying. Oh, no. Honestly, it is one of the funniest, saddest things I've ever heard. I mean, what do you do? Have we gone from number nines to number twos? We're on a number two now. You're in Bilbao, it's three in the morning, nowhere is open, you need a number two, there's no taxis taking you back to where you've paid to stay.

Do you know what this lad did? He broke into a building site because he saw in the distance one of them portable toilets. It gets worse and worse and worse. I'm going to spare the details. You haven't really. I wasn't having a dig at those people on the floor. We're just going through the motions here. Let's get back to the number nine chart. Very good. Very good.

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At the risk of offending the people of Cameroon and Brentford fans even further, let's talk about Brian. Now, our producer, Ollie, pre-empted the fact that we'd struggled to pronounce his surname. So I was actually putting the running order, Brian M. Kino, because he's keen on coming to Old Trafford. How keen, Laurie? Well, you know, obviously my esteemed colleague, David Ornstein, has said that he's chosen Man

Manchester United over those other suitors, in particular, I think, Newcastle. And you're sort of seeing reporting from that region. They seem quite bruised about the fact that Brian has perhaps chosen Manchester United. And I don't know for what reason exactly. We can probably find out in the days and weeks to come. You know, money might come into it, but also...

the allure, I suppose, of playing for Manchester United, the stadium, the heritage, the history, the kind of raising your profile as an individual that it brings. You absolutely get a huge boost to your personal brand. I know that shouldn't be the first and foremost point, but it feels like that's the way he's headed. Now, obviously, it

now requires a deal to be struck though you know Brentford from what we're told would like to have a fee that is basically you know the same if not more than Cunha's because they look at his stats compared to Cunha's and they think that they are more consistent the higher obviously 20 Premier League goals last season is a phenomenal return I know there have been reports of sort of 50 million pounds I'd heard the same myself but it's intriguing clearly it's not quite a set

fee it seems to me that needs to be figured out so yeah let's see in time if United can end up doing it because people are in

investigating United's financial fair play, PSR calculations. And I think we should have a piece that addresses that from our good friend, Mr. Mark Critchley, in the days to come. But the upside of it is that United, I suppose they have a bit more money from the DILAP. They came into this thinking that they could do Cunha, they could do DILAP, and it would be okay without European football and without needing to sell players, you know,

first they obviously still do expect to sell players but how much more does Mbumo cost than De Lappe you know let's see and obviously you can spread the costs over a number of years in terms of installments as they are doing with Cunha you know in terms of those three equal shares

Kyle, you asked for a hero on the last podcast. You asked for people to be desperate to lead Manchester United forward, to be the key components in changing the fortunes of the club and restoring them back to the top of English football. Can Matthias and Brian be those two? Are they the heroes that you asked for? I said you need to be a little bit delusional, didn't I? I said you've got to believe in yourself and believe that you're going to be the one who

who's looked at all this mess and gone, many people have failed here, but I might be one. Brian Mbwema works. He is a football player I have enjoyed watching for several seasons now. If you are a Man United fan that pretty much only watches Manchester United, that's the majority of your diet and you haven't seen too much of him.

this is one of the best players in the bottom half of the Premier League so much so Brentford aren't in the bottom half of the Premier League anymore because of what he did last season I was going to say yeah the 10th he is the forward I am most convinced can make the jump from 10th place to Champions League I think he should be playing for a top 5 team

And the decision he's decided to come to Manchester United brings me excitement but also fear because this is a signing that should work. He's Premier League proven, he fulfills an area of need, he has a very pleasing skill set and a skill set that should get Manchester United fans off their seats.

But dot, dot, dot, this is Manchester United. And I felt this way about a number of other football players in the past. This one should work. And if it doesn't work, that says a lot more. I think that one probably says a lot more about the current mess of Manchester United more than him as a football player. Because this one, oh, he's good. He's really good. Yeah. I mean, Andy, in terms of the age profile, the Premier League experience, the sort of level-ish of the two clubs in the Premier League, the price tag, I

They're both very similar moves, Brian Mbuemo and Mateus Cunha. So is this a shift from Manchester United? Because this is not really the type of signing we've made much of in recent years. Targeting Premier League players, maybe Mason Mount aside, it's not really been a consistent move.

habit that United have been in but then obviously missing out on Liam de Lappe as well the first three targets of this window are all Premier League players with experience It's a shift I like it's a shift which is partially necessary because Manchester United are not top of the transfer tree anymore partly through experience of bringing players in

People like us saying, well, it is his first season. Is it just him coming from France, from Spain, wherever? The Premier League is really tough. It's more difficult than any other league. So if you've got Premier League proven, that helps. I like the age profile. I once got dumped for someone called Brian. Just remembered that. I've got to be really careful how I tread here because the lady still knows me family. And I was sort of seen. It wasn't serious or anything like that. That's why you got dumped? I said, I'm like...

Can't dump me for someone called Brian. Unless it's like McClare or Robson. You know who else we've forgotten in this one? Oh, Greenhoff. Would it be okay? Greenhoff was a lovely fella. God rest his soul. Would it be okay to be dumped for Brian Greenhoff? Yeah, I would accept that.

Brian Kidd? Kiddos, yeah. Kiddos are legendary. Do you know what Kiddos kids call him? Kiddo, you've already told us this. You've told us this. Sorry, sorry. You need a buzzer for when I repeat stories, but I do love that. I'll tell you what I've not told you. We should give credit to Bruno Fernandes' wife, Anna, because she's played a part in this. That's obrigado, Anna. You are now an honorary Mancunian.

and remember when Reds sang for Cathy Ferguson after she helped change his mind? I reckon. We should get a song going for Ana Fernandez, shouldn't we? That's a good idea. She posted on Instagram last night as well, basically saying Old Trafford is our home. So just to really rubber stamp the he is staying rather than not going to Al-Hilal. I think that was quite interesting.

He's staying at Old Trafford. Yeah, well done, Anna. She's more clear than her husband. Yeah, nice one. That's what we like to see. Much better than... Whose wife was it that said that Manchester looked like the back end of a fridge? Was that De Gea's missus? Di Maria. Di Maria. Oh, dear. Because obviously, Mrs. Di Maria, you know, the part of Argentina you're from is like Florence. Do you know what I mean? She just got a bit carried away. Right. I think she regretted that because she got absolutely hammered. Raphael Varane's mum was called Anna. Yeah.

I once had a song made up for him, but it was all dependent on him becoming better and better. And it was to the tune of You're Free by Ultra Narte. Remember, you're free. And one of the lines he had in there was, Annie is the name of his mother. But he just didn't play enough to get the seal of approval to start singing it. So maybe if Bruno carries on like he did, we can work his wife into a song and get it bouncing around Old Trafford.

Yeah. Let's try that at some point in the future. If not just to settle. Your dad voice came out of there. Just, yeah, sure, maybe. Been using that a lot on this family holiday. Andy's absolutely giddy today, isn't he? He's got his mojo back. It's good to see him. He's had a packet of sweets. He's over in, where are you, Andy? Hang on a minute. You know he says, like, oh, these transfer junkies that just need their hair. I mean, he is now the ultimate transfer junkie. He's been picked up by Manchester United's early summer business.

Can you entice him, excite him, I should say, any further, Laurie, with any other news of any other players that Manchester United may or may not be targeting in the coming, well, hours, minutes, seconds? Give Andy his hit. No, what I did want to pick up on was Carl earlier said, this is Manchester United in a way that was like, so you can't actually, you know...

have too much hope something bad will will happen but it's actually been this is manchester united has been that gift that's been going around hasn't it where it's like of course they're signing you know this is manchester united so it's kind of funny the the different tone that you can strike with that particular phrase that then carries a different meaning i

think this is Manchester United means that United will still try for more players. I'm told that Amarin would like an athletic number eight. I do still think that the wing-back positions is an area that United need to improve, but that

now I think we're drifting into an area where it does probably take some, you know, equilibrium in the accounts to, uh, to get some more fresh faces in where, you know, you then you get into Marcus Rashford, Jadon Sancho, Anthony, Tyrone Malassia, you know, these players that are on the, the fringes on the way out. Although I will say, um, Alvaro Fernandez, as we knew him, uh, Caresas, I think as he now is known, um,

his potential move to Real Madrid would give United some money I'm led to believe that they've got a 20% sell-on clause over the sale price so it's like £5 million to Benfica so if Real Madrid go and buy him for like €50 million or something like that I think it's worth about £7 million to United so you know we're getting really excited I don't know if that will quite hit the mark for Andy in his transfer junkie state but you know it's money right just check your maths there Laurie as well I've changed currency a few times

Did you change currency? I'll let you worry. I've done it already. Can you scrutinize me? Um,

Transfer junkies, they wind me up, I'll be honest. You are one, Andy. Don't be giving us that. I'm not one. This is the arc we all needed. You are decidedly more excitable on this podcast than before Manchester United did any summer transfer business. Pre the 1st of June, Andy Mitten is a much more miserable man than this one, trust me. It's because I've had a good night's sleep for about the first time in weeks. In answer to your question, Laurie, I'm in Munich for the Nations League. Who else is also in this city? Bruno Fernandes. Ah, yeah.

one thing about Alvaro, Laurie, I think is quite interesting. United have been crying out for a left-back in the last couple of years. Does it not show some sign of negligence that Real Madrid are trying to sign this player? I mean,

A player who I only ever heard good things about. True. We both spoke to Neil Wood about him, I think. And I remember a story Neil told us about going for a meal with his wife in Hale and Alvaro was out with his family and he picked up the tab and it was just a little thing that you...

You hear these little good stories about young players and you hear bad stories. And I only ever heard good ones about Alvaro. And for him to go to do well at Benfica and then go to Madrid. Wait a minute, this was a Manchester United player. And I actually bumped into him in the car park at Carrington as he was leaving. I think for his loan move. Was it to Girona?

I think he went to Granada. Granada, sorry, Granada. And he was one of the Gs, sorry. And he was really pleasant. He was just, you could tell he was a bit gutted actually, not to have been given more of a chance at United at that moment. So yeah, he's obviously seized it with both hands at Benfica and let's see if Real Madrid get the deal done.

No one said Preston, did they? So that wasn't a G. Oh, he went there, didn't he? Yeah, he did. Unlike Alaves or Girona or whatever else we said. Anyway, let's take a quick break and we'll talk about sales because somehow Manchester United are going to have to fund all of this stuff that makes Andy Mitten excited. I'm not getting grief for being a transfer junkie. You've outed yourself. I invented the term. Oh, dear.

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Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Right, well, if United are going to spend money and they are going to target more players than just Mateus, Kunja, Brian and Buemo and whoever else they can get their hands on, they're going to have to sell someone, at least someone, if not a few people. And that now includes Jadon Sancho, Laurie, doesn't it? Who we

We talked months ago now, I think, about this penalty clause of five million quid for Chelsea to send Sancho back to Manchester United and not go through with the obligation to buy, which now feels far more like an option than an obligation. I mean, this is hugely damaging for Sancho, I think, to be honest. I know a lot of United fans, because of the way it went at Old Trafford, because of the Freedom Post campaign,

on social media won't be too upset that it's worked out like this but United have now got a problem to solve haven't they? Yeah they have because you know whilst it was Ericsson Haag as manager that obviously you know

There was a clash there. There was a massive disagreement over application and view of how Sancho was training from his point of view. Ruben Amarin has come in. It's a different head coach, but I think the general feeling sustained. I think ultimately it was a club call. I know Ten Hag was a very vital voice in all that, but the club had decided also to let him go and basically sell him. And Ruben Amarin's

quotes around what he wanted to do next season have all been, it's a fresh start, it's a reset, the good times are coming, we kind of need to look forward. So I think

reincorporating Sancho would be a kind of backward step in that regard so yeah it's really interesting that Chelsea haven't followed through on it I mean I'm just looking at his stats now you know he started 19 league games for Chelsea last season 12 as a sub you know 6 in Europe 2 as a sub you know FA Cup appearances as well played a lot scored 5 goals played in the final scored in the final of the Conference League ok I know it's not the

pre-eminent European competition but still it was a trophy that Chelsea were very happy to win and he played a vital part it seemed to me and Enzo Maresca spoke about him afterwards so ultimately I think

a big factor is wages, right? And this was always something that I think we hinted at being a possibility because when you sign a player on loan with this obligation, a lot of the time that has already been worked out at that moment, but it was obviously quite late in the window, wasn't it, when Sancho went? So there clearly wasn't the time to get his salary then at Chelsea sorted. And we've come to this point now at the end of the season where they're having these negotiations. It's not really taken too long. So clearly,

maybe Chelsea ultimately were always going to go this way, but they've not come to an agreement on his salary. So therefore, he goes back to United and Chelsea pay five million quid. You can't sort of force a player to join a club. I don't know, how does the salary work then in that case? Is this normal? I can't remember ever hearing of a penalty clause being paid for a player, well, a club, sorry, to get out of an obligation to buy before. I can't remember. It may have happened.

I think they are included because I think this is a possibility, isn't it? If you don't agree the wages at the point at which you sign the contracts to go on loan, then you're always going to get to this stage. The issue, I suppose, is that because Sancho has got a very good salary at United, it becomes more of a big topic, whereas lower down the food chain, you can have these negotiations and it probably gets resolved because it's not

huge amount of money that you're talking about whereas Sancho even with the Champions League cut to his contract as all United players have we're talking £200,000 a week and Chelsea that's been their new mode hasn't it since the takeover of the club that they don't pay big wages really they get them on long contracts and it's players that are young

as well so it's their first perhaps major contract so the idea is that they're not going to be paying players over the odds so to bring Sancho in on more than that then would upset you think the squad dynamic so yeah it's a really interesting one it'd be fascinating to see

if this gets resolved at the point at which United are returning for pre-season, how does that all work? They could have quite a few players in that boat, actually, as we touched on earlier with Rashford, with Anthony, with Malasia. Clearly, United and Amarin and everybody else at the club would want it sold before them. Yeah, Laurie's right. Sancho is going to be the most complicated one to sort out from Manchester United's perspective.

Anthony's done exceptionally well in Spain. There will be suitors for him. Marcus Rashford did well at Aston Villa. There are likely to be suitors for him. Sancho, we're not saying he didn't do well at Chelsea because Laurie's just outlined that.

But because of his wages, because of his status, that is the most complicated one, as far as I understand, for Manchester United to get sorted out. Any chance he plays for United again, Andy? I'd be very surprised if he did, but I'm not in charge of the first team. I'm not being facetious when I say that. I just... I would be surprised. I mean...

I just would. And I would be surprised if Rashford or Anthony played for Manchester United as well. I wonder how many times I'll ask the question, Carl, will Jadon Sancho play for Manchester United again? Can Jadon Sancho play for Manchester United again? The one thing about the spell at Chelsea, it's not like it's been a disaster. He's been okay, hasn't he? Laurie mentioned the stats earlier.

Obviously, he scored in the Conference League final. Enzo Maresca, very complimentary when he spoke about him after that game as well. He said, if we finish fourth, it's because of Jadon. If we won tonight, as in the final, it's because of Jadon. He said everyone's up and down a little bit during the season. That's part of the game. So, yeah, it's not like he set the world on fire, but it's not been a disaster for him. But this just feels so damaging, doesn't it? Yeah, I whispered on the previous podcast, we should get ready for...

one of these loan players to return. I also completely forgot that Tyrell Malassio is going to return back from loan from PSV as well. Champion, no less. Dutch champion. Chaos in my house when that happened. Sorry to mention that in the anchor household. Sancho's been fine. I think I said previously, I feel so sorry for him. The fact that we even knew there was a five million penalty clause was an indication of

direction of travel and how... I mean, this is a player who in 2019-2020 was behind basically Nino Messi in terms of goals created and goals scored. In terms of on-ball value. This was meant to be a slam dunk and it's just not worked out. And I feel...

I'm not angry at him because there are tactical reasons as to why it's not worked out at both Manchester United and Chelsea. The one reason why I liked watching Jadon Sancho for Dortmund is he's not the biggest, he's not the quickest, he's not the strongest, but he is the fastest thinker in the room. And if you can create a team designed around that, he can pull off things that a player of that size and a player that's quite amazing can't.

The problem with that is if you rely on being the fastest thinker in the room, you need to make sure

everything going on up top is absolutely perfect and you also need to make sure all the players around you can be in sync with what you're thinking because you are thinking just a fraction of a second quicker that didn't work happen at the start of his Manchester United career for various reasons there was a reason why eventually he he starts playing on the right hand side and eventually plays on the left hand side and I think that was because he desperately needs overlapping fullback regardless what football club he has and I think as you've seen at Chelsea or if you

that lack of explosive pace that lack of premier league intensity and strength puts a limit on where he is and it feels like i'm not saying they're the same player i'm not saying the same character it feels a little bit like the end of jesse lingard's manchester united career where you've got a player there who undoubtedly can play for a number of teams but

But his wages price him out of the teams that probably need him most. I think there's plenty of teams in a Europa League level, a Conference League level, that their most expensive football player is on 100 grand a week or 120 grand a week. And if you can get Jadon Sancho for that price and build the team around him, you're going to build a pretty good team. Problem is, as Laurie said, he's on wages north of 200 grand a week. So those teams can't get him. And that means he's...

for a bit until some sort of resolution can be resolved. I believe his contract expires in 2026. I'm looking at Laurie here as if he's got transfer market plugged into his brain. So maybe some sort of thing can be resolved. I know I saw a lot of people on social media drop freedom and loads of jokes at him. And I'll say the same thing I said previously. Even if you hate Jadon Sancho, even if you believe Jadon Sancho has been disrespectful of Manchester United or disrespectful to Manchester United managers and you...

You find it funny. You do need Jadon Sancho to be good because you need money. There was a point where it looked like you're going to get 24 million. That was going to help. And now it's only going to be 5 million because Jadon Sancho was okay. So certain top six football clubs are kind of good at hiding when their players are bad.

or not having a good form. And I think Man United fans need to get just a little bit kinder and better at doing that. Just a scooch. No, I think you're right, Carl. You're right, Carl. It's snide. And these lads, whatever you think of them, get enough abuse as it is. And I don't think fans have got any idea how much abuse Manchester United players get on a daily basis. Absolutely loads. Practically all of them.

You know, one bad game and you get a torrent of abuse. Just imagine if that's you. Do you know what I mean? It isn't on. I understand this contract because I do have Transfer Market open in front of me. My man. And it says expires June the 30th, 2026. So Harry Maguire's also... But you're now a plus one. A plus one. Okay. But they're not going to exercise that, I don't think. No. That's the debate. Do you exercise it to try and get more value in him? I don't think they're going to do that. No.

But then you've got the commitment of paying the higher wages for longer as well, haven't you? Which creates more of an issue. It's complicated, isn't it? I feel bad for him. I feel so sorry for him. And maybe it's because we're both from London and I look at him a little bit differently compared to some of the other players at United. But even when Sancho does something that, yeah, I can understand why a lot of season ticket holders go, I'm not having him. I'm not angry. I'm just like, mate, come on. And yet when we spoke to him, he was a lovely lad.

that was my impression of him, you know, in my only dealings with him, he was really polite and friendly, but obviously I've heard other stuff about him where, you know, he has rubbed up people the wrong way. Well, I think, I think he can be a complicated character from what I've been told, but he's been through quite a lot, hasn't he really? Um,

playing for England, obviously. It doesn't feel in some ways like he's recovered from that summer because obviously then things started to go wrong as soon as he moved to Manchester United. And you hope for him that he can, you know, rekindle what he had at Dortmund prior to,

moving to Old Trafford. Even the loan spell at Dortmund, it seems to be finding or beginning to find some form again. At Chelsea, we've seen it in flashes, but yeah, unquestionably, it's something for Manchester United to work out. Laurie, just quickly before we finish, in terms of other departures, we've mentioned all the names. Is there anything else that you feel is imminent on anyone else going out of the door? Not necessarily imminent, but Marcus Rashford is a big one, obviously, and I think he's

brother Dwayne Maynard who looks after him as well was over in Barcelona for talks Hansi Flick has been pretty complimentary about that so that's perhaps one to watch although as ever with Barcelona there's the financial picture and whether they can afford such a move I wouldn't be surprised I know yeah what was the levers I wouldn't be surprised I did the whole podcast referring to them as levers for the athletic and then realised at the end that they were just levers so yeah

You're trying to get your Catalonian pronunciation, were you? Exactly, yeah. But I could see him being another loan, to be honest, given the wage situation. And also, Rasmus Hoyland is an interesting one. I know I touched on him earlier, but Inter, I'm led to believe, are interested in him. Inter are into him. Inter are into him. And so, let's see...

how that shakes down I'm kind of intrigued as to whether United say let's just rip the plaster off or whether they say actually we can still work with this guy and we don't want to give up on him yet but yeah there are a couple more players that I think United could be looking at potentially selling as the weeks go on. Okay well I'm sure we'll cover that on future podcasts and this episode actually was supposed to be

Well, Manchester United cancelled their end of season awards again. That's happened far too many times in recent years, hasn't it? But we're going to do our own alternative end of season awards. We will still do that. We're going to do that on the next podcast next week, but we had to just delay ours because of the amount of transfer business and transfer chat that there needed to be considering the way that this week has gone so far for Manchester United. But we will be back next week and we want to hear from you. We want your nominations and your comments on the following categories of

So I'm going to challenge Laurie, Carl and Andy to pick candidates for these categories on the next podcast. But obviously we want you involved and then we'll decide together who wins them. So the first category is player of the season that wasn't Bruno, because we would just have everyone saying Bruno Fernandes. Your favourite goal of the season?

I named this the goal that got you. So not necessarily the best goal, but the one that made you feel something. It might have been happiness. It might have been excitement. It might have been anger. I don't know. But the goal that got you feeling something. So your favourite goal of the season in that regard. The standout moment.

So this doesn't have to be on the pitch. This could be something off the pitch as well. Maybe walking into the Plaque Nueva in Bilbao, seeing the flares, the sea of red and black and white Manchester United flags, fans with smiles on their faces, beers in their hand. I don't know. That in some ways feels like my standout moment of the season. But you might have something that you experienced this year with United that's not just about on the pitch. Then again, on the pitch, football.

There's not been many, but there are a few. So get your suggestions in for that.

And this one is your category alone. I won't be asking the lads about this. I just want you to get involved with this. So your favourite pod moment, what's the best section, the best discussion, the best feature that we've had on the podcast this season. That's all about you and your thoughts. So get involved, get in touch. Use the email devilspod at theathletic.com. But it'd be great to hear from people on all these, Laurie, wouldn't it? Yeah, I mean, clearly the best moment on the podcast has just happened, right? With Andy's fantastic description of

somebody being caught short after the final in Bilbao so I think that's the home run right there. Yeah Andy does anything stand out to you that might be able to get people involved? Yeah your pronunciation of Plata Nueva in Bilbao. Yeah. What did you say? I got there in the end. Placa Square. It's right though isn't it? Placa Nueva? No? No. What was it? Plata it's a place it needs a new square.

I can't speak Basque. It's not even that Basque. It's just in Spanish, that is it. I can actually speak a little bit of Spanish. So yeah, apologies to...

My Spanish teacher. Carl, anything that sticks out in your mind that might get people talking and reacting to this? We want them involved, obviously. Goal that made you feel anger. That's an interesting new criteria. Well, feel something. I think I've spoken before about the amount of Danny Welbeck goals against Man United that have really hurt extra. I'm like, Danny, please. What are you doing this to me for? Yeah. It's just cruel now, Danny. So stop it. Yeah.

I thought Marcus Rashford's goal against Ipswich for that one, to me. It's not by no means the goal of the season at all. But him scoring that at Portman Road a minute into Ruben Amarin's reign felt like a real, oh my goodness, he's saying this is the guy. This is the time. We're back.

Maybe not when Amari Hutchinson deflected, Curler went into the top corner. But anyway, get involved. We want you to have your say, especially on your favorite moment on the podcast as well, devilspodattheathletic.com. But for the minute, thank you, Carl. Thank you, Laurie. Thank you, Andy. And thanks for listening. We'll see you on the next one. Take care. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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