Cunha in, Bruno out? post-season tour report
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Kroger. Fresh for everyone.

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The Athletic FC Podcast Network. This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. And finally, that chaotic campaign is over.

As this season becomes last season, there's question marks emerging over the future of captain Bruno Fernandes. We'll get into that. Mateus Cunha has said yes, supposedly. Liam de Lappe has said no, supposedly. We'll have the latest on Manchester United's early transfer work and there'll also be a round-up of what happened and what didn't happen on Manchester United's post-season tour. Quite eventful. Laurie's still there. Karl and Andy are here as well. How are we doing everyone? Are we okay?

I'm good. How are you guys? Alright, I think. Again, I seem to say this at the start of every podcast, but even more so when we've had a bit of a break. It's been about a week as it's since we last recorded. A lot has happened, again, in the world of Manchester United, including, let's get straight into it, the potential exit of Bruno Fernandes. Just spell out the detail of the offer to start us off, Laurie, if you would, please.

Yeah, so obviously there's different numbers being reported. I can only go off what I've been told, but the figures are all similar, I suppose. They're all mega money and the numbers I've been told are 25 million euros a net year for Bruno Fernandes. So that's the salary offer from Al-Hilal and then United would be getting in the region of 80 million pounds transfer fee. I've seen 100 million as well. So I mean, listen, I don't know, maybe...

would actually up it to that amount in the end. That'd be 100 million if you want Bruno and the rest. Well this is it, we can get into it. He's a 30 year old footballer, he's obviously a talisman. I know Carl's been having a debate with himself about it, is it the right thing to even contemplate accepting a bid or not. But

But we believe, we're told, that Bruno Fernandes is giving it serious consideration. Talks are ongoing with his agent over in Riyadh, so they wouldn't be happening, I don't think, if Bruno Fernandes wasn't. But then we also asked Ruben Amarin about it after the game in Hong Kong and he said,

You know, he didn't absolutely confirm that Bruno would stay, but he gave a strong sense that that was his feeling anyway. So, listen, it's a really interesting topic to get into. It feels like it's up in the air. I know that United are relaxed about it and Bruno Fernandes has been exemplary over here with signing autographs, posing for pictures. Hasn't everyone? Well, no, they haven't and we can perhaps get into that as well, so...

and I think that just shows the commitment that he's got also to the young players as well there's a lot of young players on tour he's been giving his time giving advice so yeah I think he's absolutely committed but now we've got this sort of waiting game as to what actually happens with the offer from Saudi Arabia Yeah Carl you've done a twist on the Andy versus Andrew idea that Mr Mitten put out during what we're now calling last season and

It's George versus Damon in the debate in your mind about whether Manchester United should contemplate selling their captain or not. Indeed, that was a fun Friday morning cleaving my brain in two. So George was one of the names my dad wanted to call me when I was a baby and Damon was the name my mum wanted to call me. Carl went out in the end. And this is also very strange to me. One, why on earth is Bruno Fernandes so open to hearing this bid?

He's making the eyebrows fly off my face. Well, there could be how many reasons a year, Laurie? 25 million?

Net. It's kind of like triple his money, isn't it? I mean, yeah, you're right, Carl. It's a totally different thing going over to Saudi Arabia. And that was one of the things Ruben Amarin touched on. He said he should be playing in the Premier League. Yeah, he should be playing in one of the biggest leagues in the world. He's only 30 as well. So the idea that his people are even entertaining ideas of talking to another football club, that was a real, huh?

But then, of course, the league table doesn't lie. And what's going to happen next season? Okay, sure. Why not? You've committed. You've done a lot of running for Manchester United Football Club. Maybe you don't want to run as hard and wouldn't mind getting a pay rise to do less work. Um...

This is also very, very, very hard. I didn't really come to a proper conclusion right at the end. And I had two or three people email and message me going, what was the point of this piece? You didn't tell me what to think. And I said, well, yeah, because I still don't know what to do myself. There's one side of me that goes, look, you're being offered 80 million, 100 million for a football player who, while he's really, really important, maybe...

is going to be ending on a downturn possibly entering a downturn maybe it's better to cash in now and get some better players but there's also the side of me that goes what better players who are they are you going to get a better Bruno Fernandes player this summer

regardless of how much money you got. We know what happened last time Manchester United got £80 million for a football player. They got Antonio Valencia, Gabriel Obertan and Michael Owen. You want that sort of summer window again? So I'm really torn. I want to know your thoughts. Andy, this is me passing it to you. Where are you on the Bruno Fernandes?

keep or sell, stick or twist? That was a big sigh before that man started his answer, by the way, and he's not started it yet. Manchester United's best player by a distance, and I don't think I'd ever celebrate Manchester United losing their best player. I get the counter-arguments. It could be a lot of money. He's 30, he's 31 in September. Realistically, how long can we expect top, top-level Bruno? Another three years, maybe.

But he is so essential to Manchester United at the moment. At one point in maybe March or February, we put on the cover of United We Stand, well, at least we still have Bruno. It was literally the only redeeming feature it felt in such a difficult moment of the season. On and off the field, I think he carries himself really well. I think he's a good Manchester United captain. I think he...

got really strong last season because even he had his critics amongst some Manchester United fans for... He had a slow start to the season as well. Yeah. I don't know what motivates him. I don't know what motivates his agent. I've seen football agents before be highly motivated by money. I don't know Bruno's agent and...

what is going through his mind. I don't know the personal circumstances in Bruno's family, whether his family are happy living in Manchester or not. I've never heard anything untoward about that. I think my first reaction would be one of disappointment that he goes to play in Saudi Arabia. I've interviewed a lot of players over there. They actually talk the league up, but you can't escape the fact it's nowhere near as strong

as a Premier League and you're playing some away games where the crowd are two or three thousand people. That seems to me like a great shame for one of the top players in the top leagues in the world. Would you trust Manchester United to spend the money? Well, given the record in the last 10 years, he's been one of the very, very few players who has actually justified it

who has been a success, who did significantly improve Manchester United right from the first minute. And it was minutes. I remember his debut against Wolves straight away made an impact into that team. So he's been the best signing of the post-Fergara. Again, by a distance, and it'd be sad to see him go. It doesn't feel like you're letting someone go because...

There are natural successes. Like in 95, you knew that the class of 92 were coming through. It doesn't feel like there's any of that. Not really at Manchester United. You may have said Cobby. You may have said Mason Mount. Had both had really good seasons, but that simply wasn't the case. We've talked about his position being in a crowded area of Manchester United's team. But again, he is Manchester United's best player by a mile.

Yeah, he is. Critch has written an article, Laurie, as well, outlining the importance of Bruno Fernandes statistically and other aspects in fairness, but I thought this was interesting. At the start of the piece, he says,

His goals and assists basically were worth 10 points in the Premier League to the club. No Premier League player again for the third season running created more chances than him. He played 4,927 minutes in all competitions, the most of any Manchester United player as well. And he also details some of the work

that Bruno does off the pitch. Most of it is unspoken about, to be honest. I know for a fact that week to week there is a lot that he does to keep the squad together. There's a lot of work that he does as a talisman of the club, as a statesman these days, as the captain, obviously. But Critchwright's about him offering to pay for staff to attend the cup final out of his own pocket, organising the meal and the bowling in Altrincham midway through, when was it, February, I think it was, to encourage players

a little bit more unity at a time where United were really struggling. He was the one you wrote in your article who went to see Joshua Xerxe when he was taken off early in that Newcastle game at Old Trafford when it looked like it could be the end of his Manchester United career. And that's the tip of the iceberg. United are not just potentially losing a very impactful football player, but they are very much potentially losing a very impactful character as well.

Yeah, for sure. And as I touched on earlier, the way he's conducted himself over here has been really warming to see. Even, I mean, he was coming through the mix zone after the game in Kuala Lumpur and there's, you know, sort of journalists, but also fans really. And they were asking him to sign a couple of shirts and he says, yeah, no problem. And he's even instructing them on how to stretch the material so that he can get a proper signature. Footballers are very particular about that. They don't want to do...

scuffed signatures on shirts. If I'm going to sign it, I'm going to sign it properly. As much as possible, yeah. And then hold it at a certain angle as well. Yeah. And he picks up the tab for, you know, social events. So, yeah. So, I come to it and think, my gut still believes that he stays just because of that kind of commitment, the importance that he is to the team. Yeah.

Does he really want to go to Saudi Arabia? Is this a case of seeing what's out there? Like he did last summer, to be honest. He admitted publicly that he considered his future and then he had that conversation with the bosses at United, felt disappointed

that he wanted to continue, liked what he heard, signed a new contract. And obviously we're a year on from that. They've got no Champions League football next season, no European football at all. So does that then make him reconsider everything? There's people that think the Saudi Arabia offer, if United start to entertain it, that then that would invite European clubs to the table. So that kind of changed the dynamic. I don't know. I mean... Are United entertaining it? Well, Ruben Amrin said...

to me that they can find other ways to raise money. They don't need to sell Bruno Fernandes. So that's, I think, a strong indication of what he's thinking. I think that United are obviously in a very difficult financial situation and they would, I think they have to at least

you know, weigh it up. I think ultimately, I hope they come down on the side of thinking, no, we just have to keep him because you're taking the heart out of the team there, the club really. And so it's not worth the money that we'd get. And yeah, as we've all sort of said, would they actually be able to spend that money in the way that would benefit the team? Who knows? I think the jury's out on that one. So,

Yeah, but I think that they have to kind of weigh it up really. But like I say, let's see. It's kind of been fascinating how quickly it's sort of become a big talking point. And I suppose maybe now there might be a little bit of a break from it. You know, I presume Bruno Fernandes is going on holiday, you know, and I don't expect that we'd have a climactic moment just yet. But we're at the stage of cryptic Instagram posts, so it's definitely progressing in that sense. Yeah.

What do you think to that? Odd. I don't see the point, to be honest. Yeah. Don't play with people's emotions either, in my opinion, but, you know, maybe that's coming from someone whose emotions are being played with. Yeah. The post was...

It was like, you can criticize people that don't try, but you know. Yeah, it didn't say that, but it was something along those lines. Sorry, I was trying to recall it off the top of my head. But yeah, basically, it's better to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all. The English version, I think, of what was a Portuguese phrase.

Let's talk about the other side of it, Carl, because I think the immediate reaction from everyone, well, pretty much everyone, although, to be fair, some of the emails we got were quite mixed, although they've maybe had time to think about it, is like, how on earth are you thinking of selling Manchester United's most important player on and off the pitch? The flip side, the George side, the guy who wears his glasses and tracks his steps every day, religiously, what would it...

What would he do to lose someone like Bruno? Considering the money that comes in, alright, there's debate about how that would be spent. But actually, at times, he has felt like someone who Ruben Amorim has been unsure of exactly where to use. He started games in the number 10 and dropped back. He's dropped back

from the start of games and then been moved forward. He doesn't feel like he's a definitive number 10 in this system and it doesn't feel like he's a definitive midfielder in this system in some ways. And you wonder what it would do to the collective as well. Would people have to step up if the guy that they always look to isn't there anymore? There are those arguments, absolutely. There were definitely times

particularly towards the end of closed-door football where two or three midfielders would look up and you could tell they were just looking for Bruno Fernandes and just going, I'm going to get the ball to Bruno Fernandes and he'll sort this out. And it caused

real difficulty decision making there and there are times where Bruno Fernandes' ability to do everything chop water fetch chop water there you go chop water that would be an ability yeah a unique one do it do everything has caused a number of teammates to defer decisions and defer the responsibility because Bruno Fernandes takes care of it all Manchester United are going to be in a transitionary period next season it is a rebuild and

There is the sporting argument that rebuilds are better to do when everyone understands you can't, I'm going to use this word and I don't mean it in direct, you can't scabble win. You can't get Bruno Fernandes to get you a free kick goal. Or Bruno Fernandes to hit something the last minute. Everyone understands the totality of the task. And if you're not in for it, you have to go. And that also encourages other players who,

aren't properly in free only there for two or three years to go as well and that tops up your bank account just a little bit more as well so instead of it being oh well if you've got Bruno and this what this what this what you can get back into the top six or top eight and get European football and you don't have to address the other bigger problems that are still there

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Kroger, fresh for everyone. Right, well I think that won't be the last time that we talk about Bruno Fernandes and his future, so we'll see what develops with that one. But Laurie, that's not the only thing going on at the moment. As we record now, it sounds like an agreement for Matthias Kunjer to join Manchester United from Wolves is imminent. As I said on the last podcast, right, I thought it would be something that would get done sharpish June 1st today, so the transfer window is open.

party poppers. So yeah, they've obviously triggered the clause in Cunha's contract. It's three installments, so over two years. So that was the one point of negotiation that they were trying to, I don't know, change where they were perhaps going to spend a little bit more money and spread it out over five years, like they did with Joshua Xerxe. In the end, Wolfe said, no, this is the deal. They'd agreed it all with his agents in January, pay the release clause, basically. He's agreed terms.

is allowed to undergo a medical. I'm not sure exactly if that's been booked in just yet. So yeah, let's see. But I think it will get wrapped up fairly quickly. And then there's other transfer business that hasn't gone so smoothly for United. Yeah, Liam DeLapp takes into it.

He had his choice of clubs. We spoke about it, didn't we, where he met with Man United officials, made the 19th, I think that was. So he actually flew up to Manchester for that and went back to Ipswich that night for their Player of the Year award. So Ipswich were allowing him to go about this process in a very open way. He also spoke to Chelsea, I believe Newcastle and Everton, as David Moyes has mentioned as well. So, yeah,

and there's other clubs as well I think he had more tentative conversations with ultimately he's gone with Chelsea there's those links there with Enzo Maresca who had him at Man City's academy I know United had the Jason Wilcox factor being the academy chief that signed and

Lim de Lart, but also there's Joe Shields, who was at Man City, who's now at Chelsea. So you've got these links, and I think maybe the Champions League appeal for him with Chelsea, the fact that he probably will get a lot of game time there. Yeah, that's where he's gone. It felt like it was always going to be between United and Chelsea. People at Ipswich were thinking that he was going to go to Chelsea. That was the likeliest destination, they felt. United did, though, I think,

make a strong pitch for him they hoped he would sign. He hasn't, so that now leaves open the questions to where they go next. Andy, what do you think? I was told a couple of weeks ago with De Lappe that he had doubts about Manchester United, A, because of the obvious, the way the team is, the league position, etc. And B, because of the mixed messages coming out around the manager as to whether he will be in charge or not. So I think that is a negative of when the manager comes out with these really brutally honest assessments of himself and

And the headlines the next day are, is Ruben Amarim going to be Manchester United's manager? And then the next time he speaks to the media, he's like, no, no, I didn't quite mean it like that. This could be a negative effect to that. Manchester United is a very turbulent, unstable club. We've seen that this season. That doesn't make it any more attractive to a potential super. It makes it less attractive overall.

Chelsea, London living is appealing for some. Champions League football, the Maresca link, as Laurie says. I think it's disappointing at the same time because Manchester United are not going to be signing Ousmane Dembélé at the moment. Long gone of the days when Manchester United shopped at the top people's store. So you're going for someone who's Premier League proven,

who's young, you'd like to think that there was a good relationship with Jason Wilcox from when they worked together. So it's disappointing with a small D because I think even United fans felt, you know, we're not getting prime time Ronaldo here. But it's worrying as well that players of his stature, of a relegated Premier League team,

and now deciding against Manchester United, who are a far, far bigger club than Chelsea. But maybe he doesn't want that. Maybe he doesn't want all the abuse that comes with it, with being a Man United player and not scoring all the goals. There's less pressure at Chelsea. There is some pressure, but it's not the same as Man United. Maybe he can just think, I can do without all that shit in my life. You could understand if that was the case, Kyle, to be honest, and that's going to be the same thing that faces a lot of players when they look at the option of joining United this summer. On the other side of it,

Yep, yep. I believe Amarin said that...

he doesn't want players that are joining United because they want to play in the Champions League. He wants players that are joining United because you want to be a Manchester United football player. We are looking for football players that, and I mean this with the deepest respect, a little bit delusional, right? We want players with a little bit of an ego. I think you can stick Guna in that bracket, by the way. The ego bracket, yeah. You want players that can look at this absolute mess of Manchester United and have the ego to go, you know what?

I could be the one to fix this. We've said people call it, you know, United still have big pole, United still have aura, United still have the historical pole.

a lot of it is the best football players there are loads of football players out here with ridiculous egos and go I would become a legend of the game if I am the one one of the people that have helped turn Manchester United around I've heard Diogo Dalo say this he said this before the triumph in the FA Cup final for Manchester City imagine what it'd be like if you're one of the people that were here when we when we sort this out

One day, Manchester United are going to win the Premier League title again. That's going to happen one day. And the people who are on that bus are going to be legendary. They're going to have effigies painted of them across cities and there are players out there. You want to find those players. You want to find those individuals that are going to, yeah, it's going to be me. You want someone who...

You want a striker who right now is looking at United going, I could still score 20. Easy. Yeah, they do. They need plenty of them. The issue it does give Andy is that this...

was a potential straightforward deal that could be ticked off early. So you could have two players in Cunha and De Lappe through the door almost instantly at the start of the window because there is a hell of a lot for Manchester United to sort. That's just talking about incoming players, outgoing players. We've talked about Bruno Fernandes, but there's Sancho, there's Rashford, there's Anthony, there's even...

Bits about Rasmus Hoylen. There's a hell of a lot for United to get sorted here, isn't there? Yeah, and the buyout clause was relatively small as well. And he was Premier League proven. So you could see why he was attractive. And if he then goes to another club, then that becomes...

Some money Manchester United have lost. And who did United then go for? There's not a lot of strikers out there. They're expensive as well, aren't they? More than 30 million. They're very, very expensive. So that release cost was quite low. So disappointing with a small D again. You saw when Manchester United went for Rasmus Hoyland a couple of seasons ago, they weren't the only suitors. PSG wanted him. PSG offered more money for him.

It's a sliding doors moment for him there that he chose Manchester United over PSG. Tottenham Hotspur wanted him. Would you join Tottenham or Manchester United right now? One's got Champions League football, London living, whatever, whatever. It's pretty depressing, isn't it? But the reality is Manchester United are at their lowest ebb for decades.

So someone, and I like Carl's point, someone somewhere has got to think I can be the saviour here. But even then you're entering a complex dressing room and that's more power to Bruno's elbow as captain to try and have relative harmony in that dressing room because that's not an easy job either.

Success has many claimants. When things are going wrong, you're getting all these cryptic messages everywhere. None of them want to be playing for a team who are 15th in the Premier League. No. I left out Alejandro Garnaccio from that question to Andy Laurie as well. Obviously, his situation...

I was going to say his situation is clearer, but it's not really. It's clear in some ways and not in others. Obviously, he was on the tour. We'll talk about the aspects of that and how that went in a moment. But that's another complicated sale for United to work out, isn't it? Especially when...

It appears to be so clear, like I say, that he has to leave. I mean, that's not a great negotiating position for a start, is it? No, it does rather reduce the leverage as a selling club that you have. For one of your most saleable assets, right? And that's obviously why he had to come on tour and he had to play. He actually played...

pretty well in the second game. It was probably the brightest spark in the first half against Hong Kong. So, you know, at least he was putting in the energy there. Although I saw his Instagram posts on landing and it was finally with like a kind of cry emoji and a beach, a palm tree. We can all relate to that, but don't. Yeah. So, yeah.

yeah, I mean, listen, they are, they're going to have clubs come to them for sure. There's a young player on the market, so obviously Chelsea are looking at him. Napoli made a bid in January. I think there's other clubs as well, you know, on the continent that would have a look at him. So there's going to be suitors and United can perhaps say, listen, yeah, we know what the manager has said behind closed doors. He said it in a group of

a group of players so it feels like it was going to come out. That is perhaps a calculated move by him to show authority but then it does kind of make things more difficult from a sales point of view. But I think they can still say, listen, he's still a very talented player. We've been into all the stats, haven't we, in terms of what he's done for a 20-year-old and how he ranks compared to others in Europe's top five leagues. So

Yeah, I think they've still got a decent way of getting some money from him. But yeah, it's going to be another long, drawn-out process, I think. I don't think it's going to be a quick one. No. It brings me on as well to some more of the detail in your season review piece that we talked about on the last podcast.

Who's leading all this transfer business in your opinion? I mean, you wrote about the strength of the relationship between Jason Wilcox and Ruben Ameren, about the sort of creative tension is probably the way I'd put it between Sir Jim Ratcliffe and Ameren. So who is working on these deals? Who are the ones who are deciding what Manchester United should be doing this summer?

Well, there's Christopher Vervelle as well, who is the director of recruitment. And so he's becoming more of an influential figure in this. I think he's somebody that would speak to agents and sporting directors, that kind of thing. You've also got Matt Hargreaves, who's the director of negotiations, who will do as the job says and negotiate these kind of deals. So it gets into the finances of things. But Jason Wilcox is the technical director, so he is...

supposed to be the person that maps out the way that United are playing. Obviously it's changed hasn't it really because Ruben Ambrin has come in and this game model is probably led by him really and so you're signing players based on

fitting into the system and I know we touched on the fact that you can certainly have players that are adaptable right but clearly Kunyu has played in that 3-4 2-1 for Wolves so that maps on you could obviously play in other positions but it does feel like this is still a situation that's kind of in a bit of flex I suppose and

we'll see exactly how it comes to fruition, but they're the figures that are leading this. And I think they've got the work cut out to try and now shift focus on that striker because that's the number one priority, right? A lot of us talk about being in a state of flux. It's quite right. And you can see, so Jason Wilcox last year appointed a coach in Andreas who's decided to leave the other day.

So is the tail wagging the dog here at Manchester United? Are we keeping on indulging the managers and their coaching staff? Because there's now no place in the coaching staff for him and he's leaving. And I was told, and I don't know the fella, that he was really good. That he was an example of a very good appointment made by Jason Wilcox. And now he's deciding to leave. So that is more power then to Ruben and his immediate coaching staff.

And if that's going to work out, then great. But we've been down this road so many times where the manager and the people around him, including the agents, have all the power. And when they then lose their jobs, it leaves an even bigger hole because of good appointments have been made. I've then left the club and that concerns me.

Ruben Amorim's job title is head coach, and yet in press conferences, he frequently refers to himself as the manager. And if you go back to interviews with Sir Jim, where he's using the term game model, he said the game model is meant to be first agreed upon, then you choose a coach to fit that game model, and then you choose the players who can do that. That quietly has been shelved since Eric Ten Hag.

was dismissed. Ten Hag was the first United manager to keep using the term game model towards the end of the FA Cup winning season. And that very much felt like this was something that has been brought to the table by Wilcox. However, whatever game model there was under Eric Ten Hag was incredibly hard to ascertain, mostly because of the injury crisis. We do know the game model

in part had to do with promoting academy players because Ten Hag said our game model you have to find space for players like Maino and you have to find space for Garnaccio but we need clarity on what this game model is we need clarity on who is defining the game model I have real questions as to if Amarin is leading the game model because that's not what Radcliffe said is supposed to be happening this should be the technical director's job because you need to have someone who can pick game model that multiple head coaches can

If Amarin is still going to be the head coach or if he's going to do an Arteta and start off as a head coach and then if he's successful, he becomes the manager. But Amarin, you've got to be successful first. You've got to win some games before you get this managerial job title. It's all a mess. It's a complete, again, it's not even tail wagging the dog. Who's doing what? Laurie, please. Family tree.

I need another one. The thing is that the names have changed, the roles have changed, but the situation seems to be exactly the same, doesn't it? These are exactly the sort of conversations we've had numerous times in the past, Laurie, isn't it? Well, I should add another name into that, actually, when Carl was speaking. Chief Executive Omar Barada, obviously, is a key figure. He was integral in Ruben Amaran getting the job. He's been over here in Asia alongside Mark Armstrong, Chief Business Officer, and Colette Roach, Chief Operating Officer. So,

but it's a commercial endeavour. Jason Wilcox wasn't here, you know, so that is an interesting note, I think, to make. And this is a, you know, it's a big role for Jason Wilcox. He's been at Man City's academy leading that and you have to say that doing a very good job there because of what City won, the kind of players they had, the kind of players they kept,

and then he went to Southampton but now he's at Manchester United and it's a very tough job even for somebody who is well seasoned in this kind of role so I think that will be an interesting arc to observe but yeah it is I mean listen it's a huge summer isn't it it's a difficult job for anybody with the stuff that's been going on with the players that you need to sell you've got such a strong manager who makes big statements privately and publicly sorry head coach and

And so...

managing all that is very difficult. Head coaching all that. Head coaching all that, yeah. Game modelling all that. Yeah, it's complicated. It certainly is. This seems like a great place to stick our survey in anyway. So how has the season been for you guys listening with Talk The Devils? Not you three, I'm talking to the listeners now. We want to hear from you all. Check out the link in our show description to give us your feedback on the podcast. What content have you enjoyed this season? What would you like us to do differently?

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Okay, what goes on tour doesn't stay on tour because Laurie's written an expose on Manchester United's post-season tour of the Far East. I think that's probably the way of describing it, although it was only two places, neither of them were Singapore, as we established on the last podcast. But Andy, it's not the most eventful post-season tour Manchester United have ever had, is it? No, there's been absolutely mental crazy post-season tours. Players being tapped up, armed robbers,

Paddy Creran, the tough man of Manchester United midfield, having a gun pulled on him, a robber in the team's hotel, which was above a pub in Sydney. You know, the type of places Manchester United stayed in has changed a lot.

I think this was the first post-season tour since 86. Basically, this stopped happening under Sir Alex Ferguson. And they've always been infrequent. You know, Ireland is a place where Manchester United have always been very popular. There's often been post-season games there in Scandinavia as well. But there was these crazy ones in the 67 and 75 where Manchester United spent the whole close season travelling.

Went back for a week's holiday. Players missed the birth of the kids. Manchester United went to Tehran in Iran in 1975. In 83, they played in Swaziland and didn't have enough players, so joined up with Tottenham Hotspur to form a team called Topman to play a game. Got all these crazy situations. My Uncle Charlie was in the Paramount Hotel off Times Square there.

in 1950 the team had traveled there five dollars a day to be given for spends they'd gone on the queen mary boat and he got a call from columbia offering him 100 quid a week 10 times what he was on at manchester united would you fly to columbia tomorrow to talk to us via miami so he did he didn't even tell his wife he didn't even tell his mum my great grandma he just went to columbia and signed a contract

And he was like a star winger for Manchester United. And that was all happening on a post-season tour. And Busby, the manager, was fuming with him. And then when he calmed down, he said to Charlie, did he need a manager as well? Because the money was just so off the scale. And then you had the ones in the 85 when they won the cup. They went to the Caribbean, to Trinidad and to Jamaica. And it was just a holiday. They were inconvenienced with a couple of...

games as well but I've spoke to all the players and they're like yeah I've just sat there on the beach with a spliff and this gust of wind came up and blew the hair piece off the manager and we called him Cabriolet from there on just stuff which was absolutely crazy and there's not been one for a while so even though the stuff happening this time is eventful

I'd be very surprised if the players were betting on parachutists missing the stadium they were supposed to land in, as happened in Jamaica in 1985. He correctly predicted that the Jamaican Air Force would

hadn't got their angles right and one of the parachutists got entangled in the roof of the main stand. That's hitting the mark isn't it in one way and not another I mean there was no no guns nothing was smoked and no hair pieces were lost during Manchester United's post-season tour of Malaysia and Hong Kong Larry but there was still quite a bit going on wasn't there? Well yeah I mean it feels tame by comparison when Andy's rattling off that mega list of events but the

There was a few, yeah, I mean, listen, we've put it in the piece, haven't we, that I think they got on the flight and I think it was a pretty raucous atmosphere, shall we say, on the way over there. They obviously wanted to let their hair down after this season. And I think, you know, a flight out is kind of, you know, we all get a bit giddy, don't we? Night one. Night one. It's always night one, isn't it? Night one. And there was also, I think, when they landed a bit of a nightclub episode,

So then as the tour progresses, we get glimpses of them out and about in town. So we had the episode of Alejandro Garnaccio and Ahmad trying to get scooters in Kuala Lumpur and having to get locals to help them, posing for pictures and saying hello. Joshua Zerks, he had a stroll across the road at midnight because the room service offerings at the W Hotel weren't to his liking.

Very nice hotel, though, I should add, because there were some grumbles about previous hotels that United have stayed in. But yeah, Xerxe went to a Thai restaurant instead. 24-hour, I think it was. So yeah, little bits like that. And I suppose maybe one of the crucial aspects was this sort of flipping the finger, shall we say, from Ahmad, Alejandro Garnacha mainly,

you know, I was trying to get to the bottom of it. It feels like they're kind of doing it as a sort of ironic, sort of cool pose where Manuel Lagarte has been doing it all season. They're kind of copying him. I don't quite understand it. And clearly people that have seen it have been bemused by it. There was a fan, an Adidas signing event that I was speaking to, well, a friend of theirs, and they were sort of like, what do you think of this? There was the, Garnaccio did it coming off the pitch as well in London.

in Malaysia and then obviously Ahmad off the bus, Ahmad is saying that there was insults to his mum which we obviously don't condone but the kind of theme of these sort of gestures clearly it's an insulting offensive gesture so it feels confusing that you'd be using it and

People at United did eventually have a word and kind of guided them away from that. And in Hong Kong, it didn't appear. So I think that's at least something to be said. But I find, you know, Carl shared in our WhatsApp group, didn't he? David Beckham's comments on this. Basically, it feels like that's what he's referring to when he's saying, you know, we...

the main thing that we did when we were in these kind of environments was be nice to the fans, sign autographs, you know, post pictures. Show respect. Show respect. It just felt weird. It felt at odds. Even if it's sort of part of an in-joke that you've got, nobody else is part of this joke. So why are you doing it? So anyway, yeah, hopefully they've learned from this and they don't do it again. Yeah, to sort of borrow a city...

Link, Carl, it's a bit like the Gallagher brothers, isn't it really? They were famous for flicking the V's at people. I think this is the finger rather than the V's, but you're not pop stars, lads. You're football players representing a football club.

Laurie's giving the explanation there and I just had to double check both Garnaccio and Ahmad's ages. Ahmad's 22, Garnaccio's 20. I'm going, is this that sort of, you're young, you're stupid, you think you're on holiday and this isn't going to come back to bite you, but you forget everyone's got a smartphone now. But no, it's disrespectful, right? If it's an inside joke, part of the joke is they don't understand what the real meaning of this is. They think that we're just flipping the finger. You're still flipping the finger at someone. You're still flipping the finger at someone who...

Loves Manchester United and maybe only gets to watch Manchester United play football in the flesh two or three times in their lifetime. These are Manchester United fans that wake up at ridiculous hours of the day to watch you play or attempt to play Premier League football and often lose games. And yet they still chant your name and defend you.

and in their houses and this is the way you treat them. It's just, it's in poor taste. It's in really poor taste. I'm glad they were spoken to as well because it's not on. David Beckham, who's won...

ridiculous accolades from Manchester United doesn't think it's on and that was when the team was winning it's definitely not on when you've just come off the worst Premier League season in Manchester United's history. Yeah and David Beckham would have faced more than his fair share of abuse down the years to be fair even on those tours I imagine considering the strength of feeling there was at times with him. We had a very strong email from Bahir actually which

sums up the local feeling really. We as Malaysians love banter as much as the next guy but to walk off the bus flipping your own fans who are just begging and pleading for a photo or signature is truly disgusting. Garnaccio doing the same at an official Adidas shirt signing event and at the end of the game as they walked off having again lost the match was beyond comprehension. Yes, the tour was a money-making trip, we all get that, but to be treated as

like were the cause of the club forcing players to make their way out to a far-flung country after a 60-game season is a joke. I'm disgusted with what Ahmad and Garnaccio have done. They have truly made me, an international fan who has been supporting the club for longer than they have been alive, feel unwanted. If they were reacting because they were tired, then maybe both of them shouldn't have been out at 3am in Kuala Lumpur. Truly embarrassing. I don't know about the last point, whether that's true or not, but that's Bahir's take and thank you for sharing it.

On the pitch, they were booed off after losing to the ASEAN All-Stars 1-0. The second game, though, was a bit more positive in Hong Kong, a 3-1 win. And Chido Obi, Laurie, putting his hand up a little bit. We saw him in glimpses at the end of the season, but he hadn't found the net for the first team. He's done it now in a senior match, albeit a friendly.

but maybe that's a bit of a nudge considering Liam De Lappe don't fancy it. Yeah, it was quite nice timing, wasn't it? Putting his hand up, putting his head up. It was a great glancing header to a fantastic Mason Mount Cross against Hong Kong. But his first one was even better. I thought it was a turn, one touch, two touch, left foot finish.

And it was at a time when United were losing the game and I was sort of wondering, you know, I was laughing to myself, I have to admit. I was watching this game unfold and I was thinking, how can they lose the first game, get booed off? You know, and I think there were some gallows humours on the coach from the players sort of saying, you know, only we could kind of...

come to this part of the world and this happened to us and then they're losing the game against Hong Kong despite playing pretty well I think they've kind of got into the groove here you could kind of put the first match down to the temperature was extreme and they've obviously just come off a flight the temperature in Hong Kong is more modest and

Yeah, they had like 15 shots and there was that moment where Bruno's tried a Rabona when he's cleaned through on goal. You've got Hoyland having a bad touch. You've got Camerson having one cleared off the line. It's such a comedy moment. I was just thinking this is going to be two defeats to just really round off this season.

In that moment, Chido Obi came on at half-time, did the business with two goals to turn it around, Aiden Heaven put the gloss on with a third one. So, you know, those two boys that were signed from Arsenal last summer at least salvaged something satisfactory at the end of this tour. But yeah, I think it showed that he is raw, right? He's got some touches that you're...

not as tight as you'd like. And general play obviously needs to improve aspects of it. But I think that kind of instinct for goal is clearly there. And that's something that United clearly need. Amarin, after the game, said he's been doing that for the youth team. It's nice to see him do it for the seniors. Obviously, he's got more to come. And he was pretty pleased, I think, with all the youth players, actually. There was a nice...

Cameo from Shea Lacey, Sekou Kone, I think, was really good, snapping into tackles as well. Yeah, I can say Camerson, I liked as well. So you've got, you know, hopefully that's one positive around this tour, that you've got these players that have

understood what it is to be a Manchester United player, got a bit of time around the first team squad, got some relationships being built and maybe that can be a good platform for their summer and then pre-season. Yeah, in terms of some more of the positives, Andy, a huge support following Manchester United in both of these places. Okay, there was some sort of banter stuff about the bus tour on social media, but generally...

you know shows united they've still got a huge following they can make a huge impact in countries on the other side of the world i'm sure people listening to this will be sat in those countries as well and obviously there's a piece on the athletic as well they are still the second most valuable football team or football club institution business whatever in the world behind real madrid so

In terms of the power of Manchester United, it's not gone completely despite finishing way, way below what we all anticipated and expected of last season. It's not gone completely. I wasn't on this one. This was the first one in, I think, 13, 14 years that I've missed. Part-timer. I had a wedding to a City fan to attend to. Blame him. I'll send you his own address. Congratulations. No, the blue. They've got a Ruben Amorim song, by the way. He was singing it at the wedding.

celebrating that Man United don't win in a bin anyway, getting distracted. And I've seen United play in Hong Kong four or five times. United supporting both Malaysia and the adjoining countries, Thailand and Singapore. Indonesia is really strong in Hong Kong as well. That's why you get the promoters who can meet Manchester United's big match fees. They're sophisticated consumer markets where there are sponsors, where the fans buy tickets.

shirts which are not counterfeit shirts it all adds up for Manchester United and the fans there contribute to the players wages so even if the players were meant to their jokes were meant ironically it's still a poor look humour doesn't always translate to different parts of the country and

I mean, I've been in Bangkok where the players couldn't leave the hotels. So the fact that they can go out and see a little bit of it and have a good night out, that's definitely applause. And, you know, players have always let their hair down a bit on tours before.

Less so pre-season because you're gearing up to what's come ahead. But you're being judged constantly now because everybody's got a phone. I saw loads of things on pre-season tours that may have not looked right and viewed through a different type of prism. But United go there and they play to huge stadiums.

I did hear grumblings about the ticket prices, especially in Hong Kong. I think they were very expensive and significantly more than last time. And when you support a football team, you support them through thick and thin. It's not just about when the team are winning everything. Manchester United are absolutely in a thinner moment of their history now. So it's good that the fans are sticking by the club and that interest remains. The issue is...

If United are not at the top table for the next 20, 30 years, which I don't think will happen, and I do think United will rise again, then other clubs gain attention. Other clubs grow their support.

I've been to Asia many times and spoke to fans and said, why do you support Manchester United? And you get varied answers. But David Beckham was a popular one. Just those two words. So you've got to have something that attracts you to a team in the first place. If you're a young football fan in Kuala Lumpur,

or in Hong Kong. United have still got it, is what I'd say. Yeah, and that's a good thing, isn't it? Right, let's leave it there. On Talk of the Devils, Laurie needs to catch his plane home to mark the end of this season. In fact, before we finish, in a word, Laurie, how glad are you that this season is finished?

um yeah glad yeah i mean just as you were yeah um satisfied relaxed i don't know this job's fantastic and obviously i'm very lucky to be over here and experiencing i'm just looking out at hong kong you know talk about concrete jungle the skyscrapers you know as far as i can see uh it's a beautiful place to come and walk around but yeah it's it's nice to i'll be going back home i'll be taking a nice long break and

probably dipping in and out of some transfers. But yeah, it's been an unusual way to finish a season. I think all the players were scratching their heads a little bit and you can obviously suggest that maybe...

performing better would have meant that they hadn't had to come on this but uh let's see if they do another one um obviously we've got america in july yeah so it's not even too much longer until that but it was funny i mean the final thing that reuben amarin said to us in his uh press conference obviously there's four uh journalists that have come over here um and he said i will miss you guys two months i can't believe i won't be seeing you you know very much tongue-in-cheek yeah well

We'll be seeing each other though, won't we? We're going to do another podcast later on in the week. So the season is not over just yet, despite the fact that it's been a bit of a slog and it will be a bit of a relief not to talk about it for just a week or so, whenever we...

take a break on the podcast but i've enjoyed this one there's been a lot to get in the next episode we'll do a little bit more of a season review we'll look back a little bit more at what's happened what's gone wrong what needs to happen moving forward so yeah we'd welcome your company for that so keep your eyes peeled there's a survey as well so go and have a look at that and fill in we'd love to hear from you all what you think about the podcast what you like about it what you'd like to see done differently so get in touch but andy carl lorry thank you very much as always

And thank you for listening along. We'll see you on the next one. Take care. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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