Dismal Christmas display as Bournemouth win at Old Trafford (again)
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We're here huddled up in the comms room at the stadium. We're carrying away from the weather. I'd like to carry away from the result for Manchester United as well. United 0, Bournemouth 3, but we can't do that. Grim weather, grim result, grim day all round really.

Two grim men looking back at me as well, Andy Mitten and Mark Critchley. How are we doing? You okay? Four in out, mate. You're saying it's grim. You didn't have to stand outside the ground for two hours before the match. I think we had four seasons every 15 minutes. I even saw a patch of blue sky at one point. As for the result, because that's going to dominate the tone of this podcast. That feels like the last four seasons as well. Yeah, good one. I said to people before the game, because people come up to you and they said two things to me today. Rashford's going, isn't he?

And I'd say, is he? What's your source on that? No, no, no. He's going, though, isn't he? And basically they're looking for you to confirm what they suspect.

And the second thing is, what's the score going to be? And I said to numerous people, I wouldn't be surprised if Manchester United won 3-1 or lost 3-1. Because you have no idea what is coming. Apart from that little uneasy sequence that I spoke about in the last podcast, we actually knew we were going to lose today, just like we know we're going to win the next two games. Let's just save the optimism for later on in the podcast on that bit.

Yeah, maybe. Laurie Whitwell is going to join us later on. He's not been at the game today. Carl is not with us, but we do have Critch. Thank you for doing this, mate. I'm sorry you've had to do it under such circumstances. Well, you know, it's a busy Christmas period. You've got to let the reserves come in every now and again. Critchmas! Merry Critchmas, everybody. It's not a very Merry Critchmas, I'm afraid. Now, look, I think...

I agree with Andy. You didn't really know what result you're going to get today because you don't know what United team is going to turn up. But I come away from it thinking Bournemouth have played exactly like I've seen them play all season, really well drilled, really aggressive, on the front foot, winning the ball high up the pitch. And it's everything that United aren't suited to playing against at the minute. And it's everything that United aren't as well. It's what we wanted this team to be. I think it's what Ruben Amorim wants this team to be as well in that respect. Yeah.

But it's not there yet. And look, that's acceptable. We all know this is going to take time. But I think, you know, for a team that has what? What's the capacity of Bournemouth Stadium, Andy? I think it came up in the press as you should know. It did come up. And I just had a word with Simon Stone from the BBC about this because he spoke to Bournemouth. It's not his hammering, is it? He spoke to hammering. He said, you know, Bournemouth playing in a ground whose capacity is 13,000. And I thought, I said, Simon...

you'll be looking to get 11 000 in there what do you mean i said sorry mate i'm just a stadium but but i was speaking to people from bournemouth today they are building a new stadium um but anyway basically since you started slagging off bournemouth their their capacity of the ground and also the surrounding areas being unsuitable for further expansion that they can't stop beating manchester united three nil at old trafford so i am partly to blame

I'm going to credit them. They've got a fantastic manager. I liked him as a player in Spain. I liked him as a manager when he was at Rayo. Obviously, he's from that tiny part of the Basque country, Gib Cuscoa, like half the managers in the Premier League. They've got a brilliant sports director as well, Thiago Pinto. He was responsible for Benfica, bringing all those youngsters through. Then he went to Rome. And he was someone who was looking at working in the Premier League for a long time. He got the Bournemouth job in the summer and

And down to him, he brings in people like Heysen who scored the first goal. 19 years old. I'd never heard of him. But Pinto knew that Juventus needed to sell because that's what good sports directors know. They've got intel. They know where the pressure points are. They've got so many contacts that they end up bringing players through. And I watched them today and you mentioned the game plan. Superbly organised. Superbly organised.

They've got a really nice mix of experience. I think Adam Smith's like 33 now, isn't he? But the younger players, Heysen's 19, got a couple more teenagers in there. And they looked like they were going to get a win right from the start. The manager was saying afterwards, it's a really difficult place to come when the crowd are behind you. And I just thought, he's just flattering it because it didn't feel like that. They felt so in control. He said last year was the game where we won 3-0, but we weren't in control. And I

I'm not surprised. It's not...

a coincidence that they've beaten Manchester United 3-0 in consecutive seasons. It's easy to sit there and wax lyrical about every aspect of your day when you've just won 3-0. In terms of that, actually, I had a stat on this. United have never lost by three-plus goals in consecutive home matches to the same opposition in the Premier League era. In fact, overall, in United's league history, they've only done this once before, losing 4-1 to Burnley in November 1961 and then 5-2 in...

in September 1962. So it's a pretty unprecedented couple of results for any team at Old Trafford. That said, Critch, I wrote down trends. So going behind...

Six games in a row now in all competitions that Manchester United have gone 1-0 down. Of course, they went behind in the Bodo Glimp game as well, despite making a fast start in that Europa League match. Conceding from set-pieces time and time and time again. And an 0-1 that reoccurred today, conceding in blocks two in two minutes. That's something we used to see under Eric Ten Haag. So,

None of them are good trends, are they? They're not. And especially when you're early in the days of a new managerial reign, you are looking for patterns and you're looking for certain trends to pick up on things. And it's not great that most of the themes that we're finding are negative ones. There's not a lot on the positive side because it's felt like the good results have come and gone and there's not been huge things to pull at and huge themes and consistencies within them.

I do think the set pieces thing is interesting because the one thing I would say is that I was looking at the table for set piece goals in the Premier League before. Do you know the top three teams in that table? Arsenal, Nottingham Forest, Bournemouth now after today.

So those three teams that United have played in the last three weeks when we've been having this conversation about set pieces, right? So they're coming up against really well-drilled set piece teams who are built to expose them at these points, right? So there is a bit of context there and a bit of a caveat. But at the same time, you know, look at that first goal today. Joshua Xerxe is up against 6'5 Guyon Hoysen.

I think we've seen a lot from Xerxes. He's a big guy, right? But he's not been particularly eerily dominant, you would say. The ball's been going up to him. He hasn't been holding it up. So why is he on him? That's the question mark you'd have to have. And we know as well that there's obviously been a change in the coaching staff with Andres Jorjson moving off the set pieces and Carlos Fernandez on. And it's aligned with that change as well. So it's something that absolutely needs to be fixed. And then, yeah, going behind early, going behind in games. I mean, it's something that...

you can do and if you show fight back then that shows character and personality and we talk about it in all these positive and I think we've done that over the past week right from Pilsen to the Etihad to even Tottenham game the other night in defeat we were talking about how

and how much personality United showed in those moments. But it's not something that you can keep doing over and over and over again. And it's something that United have forced themselves, a position they've put themselves in for the last six games. So that's another thing that absolutely needs to be fixed. Set pieces, 17 goals now conceded in the Premier League in 2024. They've got a couple more matches to add to that potentially. And already it's the most that United have ever conceded from set pieces in a single calendar year. In fact, this season, I think it's Wolves and United who have conceded

have got the worst record conceding from set pieces. So, Boxing Day might be fun with all the corners, might it? Probably win that. United have been decent at Molineux. Wolves were a poor side. You say 17, that's how many goals the team have conceded since Ruben Amarin became manager as well. 17 in nine games. Way too many. And he knows that. Seven in...

few days as well. There's some really soft goals again this afternoon. I mean, Semenyo's looked like Slanky's the other night. Another from a set piece, an individual error conceding the penalty. It's the theme, match after match after match, that the goals United are conceding are too soft. I mean, the XG again, I

you know, people read into this, people don't, whatever, but 2.26xG for United, 1.24xG for Bournemouth, 23 shots, 60% possession. I spoke to Alessandro Martinez after the game, he insisted that he thought United had done enough to win and it was just the clinical edge of both sides that proved the difference. I'm sorry, but when you lose 3-0 at home to Bournemouth for the second season in succession, you're not going to get away with a line that you thought that Manchester United needed to win. United's

chances were there the shooting was woeful every single game now I'm seeing shots not just going narrowly wide Bruno Fernandes had about four different shots but going miles miles over a mad shot into the Stretford end literally towards the second tier it's normally Diogo Delotte who's doing this and I joked in the last podcast about it's association football it's not rugby you're not trying to score a try and I can joke about that in lighter moments and this doesn't feel one at the moment

United didn't score a goal today. United have been... This team do not score enough goals. And we're picking out on Xerxe because of what he did yesterday.

for the first goal and in recent weeks it's been Deleux again because some of the marking and we're baffled that lads who are as tall as Critch I've just realised how tall Critch is how tall are you? I think I'm maybe not quite six if that's tall in your world then fair enough he's over six four these are lads Critch's height on corners and the ball's flying over him and this is happening not as a one-off Ian but every single game and that's when it becomes worrying

42% of the goals conceded have come from set pieces. I'm probably going to do a piece tomorrow, the number of horrific stats...

attached to this current Manchester United side and this is to a manager who's not in the honeymoon period now I've got to say he's a fantastic communicator I've just sat there in the press conference stayed dry and I just think he speaks with such confidence in such calmness and he says he's hurting that's just my view Critch, Tor Critch might have a totally different view to that

But he communicates so well. And he talks about the anxiety among the stadium. That was interesting. That was interesting. Because you could easily construct that as a criticism of the fans. And that's the first time...

I felt that from him because all of the time he's been extremely positive about the support he's had. I did ask him about this. I've got to be careful what I say because it was in the embargoed part of the press conference. But I would have asked him if it stayed into the open part as well. I don't think he has an issue with the fans, but then which manager is going to come out and say that he does have an issue with the fans?

Well true, his issue that he explained in the press conference if you haven't heard it was that he felt there was a real anxiousness around the stadium from the very start of the game before Manchester United even went behind when the fans were getting on Andre Onana's back for not taking a goal kick quicker. I think he mentioned that maybe just in passing after the Bodo Glimp game as well or he certainly picked up on a certain like energy within the crowd. I just think it's interesting that you know you say that he's not in the honeymoon period anymore. I

after that Tottenham game the other night, the amount of people that I saw and the amount of reaction that I saw to it that was like, even when we lose now, I feel that we're making progress and that I can see positives. And that- Maybe not today. Well, this is it. Like, I'm trying to still gaze the reaction at the moment because I don't think there were a great deal of positives today. I don't think-

that, you know, different, they take chances, that maybe the scoreline's a bit different, maybe it's not a 3-0 game, but there doesn't seem like a wealth of optimism to come out of this. And it almost felt like earlier in the week after that Tottenham game, this balance that he's trying to strike between having a bit of suffering, having growing pains, et cetera, et cetera, while still bringing everyone alongside, that felt like that was still in place. It's still got to be in place because how many games does he have? He's not even 10 games yet. It's nine games, right? Nine games. So it's still got to be there.

But it just feels like today was a little bit of a different reaction than it was on Thursday. The stadium emptied well before the end. And there was a small knot of fans in the Stretford end after who were singing for Ruben Amorim. I still think he enjoys an awful lot of goodwill. I think he's not only a good communicator, but he's a very good coach. That's why he's got the job. But he needs wins. And he knows that. And he desperately needs wins.

Because if he was to take United from 13th when he arrived, 11th, 13th, up to 6th, then he can say, I've made progress. And we can see within parts of matches that there is progress. Some of the football is decent. Some of the football against Spurs the other night was decent. But you cannot be losing matches week after week after week. You just can't. And he's lost four of his opening nine games now.

Eken's saying it was difficult at the start. I wonder how much he can rotate. And Charlotte Harper, our colleague, had asked him about that. I'm not sure there's a strength in depth to rotate among these players. I wonder if today's the end of that rotation to a degree. I mean, I know there's lots of games still coming up. January is extremely hectic, but there's a little bit of space now where there's not that match between Christmas and New Year like there usually is. It's the other side of New Year. So,

Boxing Day, the 30th at home to Newcastle. It doesn't feel like they're going to be rotation games this time. Newcastle was a huge game last year, if you remember. It was just before the end of the season. Manchester United got a really much-needed win just before the cup final. Again, Newcastle had loads and loads of chances. That's not a gimme them coming here. Long gone are the days where Newcastle United came and went home

they could easily come here and win. I think Wolves, I'm a bit more confident about. Wolves, I predict them to go down at the start. You've seen how they've gone on today, haven't you? No. They won 3-0 at Leicester. Yeah, they've got a new manager. With a new manager, Vito Pereira. I predict them to go down as well. And nobody else did that. No.

So we were looking pretty good until that 3-0 at Leicester today, weren't we? Watch him just go on a winning run now. Yeah, but I mean, it's there. It's on the record. But his first home game in charge is Boxing Day Molineux against Manchester United at 5.30. Do we seem to come up amongst teams having a new manager bounce more than anyone else? It just seems... Especially when we didn't really have one. Yeah. We had two great two minutes at Ipswich. Yeah, that was all right. No.

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It's still very early days and I feel like you've still got to bring Amarin along with the rest. It feels ridiculous to be talking about the honeymoon period being over really because it never really started in a way. I think in terms of the goodwill, that is still there. You heard people shouting for him or singing for him at the end of a 3-0 home defeat which doesn't happen very often.

But it was people singing by the way. Well, yeah, I know. I know, but there is still some, it's not like they're being booed down or anything, is it? But he was stark from the outset, wasn't he? That this was going to be tough. Yeah. Look, and like I said before, I think his task and his challenge is really, it's a bit of a cliche now, but it's trying to fly the plane while you're still building it at the same time. Right. That's what he's, that's what he's here to do. And to a certain extent,

Like, it's tough when you record a podcast immediately after the game and we're all focusing on one single game, right, in isolation. If we broaden this out, isn't this kind of what the whole season is going to be about, though? Isn't it really going to be about, right, we've gone into it, at the start of it, we've gone in with a manager that the club evidently didn't believe in because they've sacked him less than 100 days after they've extended his contract. At that point...

the rest of the season is going to be not necessarily a write-off. I think, you know, we can all see that there's still something to fight for here. It's like brickmanship, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. We've got to this position where, to an extent, it's just about rebuilding. It's just about having something to focus on in the future that we can be positive and optimistic about. And that needs to be over a longer term rather than a shorter term. And so I think it's interesting Andy saying now, you know, can we keep rotating? Can he keep doing this?

he sort of has to because in order to build that longer term vision that he's hoping to work towards it's going to be necessary to do that so yeah I think look it's easy to get carried away in the heat of after a defeat like this but we always have to put it in the context of just what this season is going to be it's going to be about rebuilding it's going to be about

tough times and some pain and suffering like you said when those tough times happen don't expect us not to react to them if we're going out to Arsenal it's going to be painful the emotion is going to be there the other night at Tottenham 7,000 fans went there they're going to be annoyed when your team loses and it's going

It's going to be painful. And that's what it's like being a football fan. It's the first Christmas period since 89. United are in the lower half of the table. I remember that time well. And it was grim. And for decades, you'd look back at that and thinking, remember how bad we used to be? And we're now back there again. That was a team who didn't win between the November and the February season.

And I joked at the start of this month about how December this year can't possibly be as bad as December last year because that was the worst since 1933. And we lost five games last December. We've already lost four now. I mean...

It wouldn't be the biggest turn-up ever if Manchester United lost one more game this month, wouldn't it? Imagine if they lost six. I don't think that's ever happened in the club's history. And that's appalling. And the manager's got to get a bit of heat from that as well. And I like him and I like his ideas. And I do have confidence in him in the medium and long term. But he also must be winning games in the short term. You must do. You're at Man United. There's no other big club in the world. You don't go into Real Madrid or Barcelona...

lose half your matches because you're going to get destroyed for it and he actually said that as well and he's right yeah it's hard to disagree with him to be fair you two have finally raised a little bit of a smile what are we nearly 20 minutes into the podcast which is good and I've got another smiling face sat next to me as well Charlotte Harper Charlotte thank you for coming on

You've witnessed that today as well. We've been sort of searching for positives, trying to work through some of the trends, but whichever way you look at it, it was a hugely concerning result that for United, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was. Amarim, he's got away with the media in the sense that he did spin a bit of positive in there. He said United created more. He said that they defended better. I know the scoreline doesn't reflect that, but he's saying that they conceded fewer big chances and they had more possession. If you look at the stats, yes, 60% possession, better XG than Bournemouth. And it feels like...

One set piece and then one penalty and they're down in the dump. So I do get where he's coming from. But the results don't lie. The table doesn't lie. And it was just, I was chatting to Critch for 20 minutes and we're like, anything really happening here? Like it was just, it was, there was just this sense of lethargy. There wasn't any spark. I think they started pretty poorly. Yeah.

and as Critch has just written about, like they just left themselves with a mountain to climb. I'm also speaking about that anxiety, even from the first kick, um,

Which is interesting that, A, he's so candid about admitting, yeah, I felt it, the players felt it. But also, why? This is supposed to be Old Trafford and a fortress. Why are players anxious in those first couple of minutes? Well, yeah, it's the way that this season's gone. It's the way that the last few seasons have gone. I think that particular aspect of Onana,

and the defence building up in that way doesn't sit comfortably still with Manchester United fans, particularly a United team who haven't quite been at the level that they need to be in recent times under Amarim. Longer than that, a team who sit 13th in the table. I mean, Charlotte, you did loads of fantastic work over in Lisbon to build a picture of who Manchester United were getting in Ruben Amarim. Do you think he...

Do you think he knew how big this task was going to be? Do you think he's up to the task still? I mean, his communication skills are there certainly, but the team must get better quick.

I still think he's up for it. I'm not sure how his eye bags are faring. He seems to get more weary as the day goes on. The vitamin D in Lisbon is in short supply in Manchester. Even today, it was clear sky, blue, no cloud, and it was still raining. How that's possible, I've no idea. Well, when we were doing the Buddha Glimpse piece, they were saying, oh, yeah, vitamin D supplements, that's just the standard in the Scandi countries. Maybe he needs to take some vitamin D to keep him chipper. But...

He's such a confident man, so assertive. Like, you know, responsibility is on me. There were questions about set pieces and Carlos Fernandez and Andreas Georgson and who's in charge. I'm responsible for that. I take the flack. And he might have this smile, but I do get the sense he's very assertive. We've seen with Rashford and that ruthlessness. No questions about that. He just said, I know what I'm doing here. We know what we need to do.

There's no sense of panic from him, even though we may see that from the players on the pitch. No panic is a good thing because you'd forgive him if he was panicking considering the way the start has gone. Charlotte, while we've got you, we need to talk about the women's team if we can. You've been covering them very closely as well as the men's team since you've been up here in Manchester. They're in the top half of the table. They're just outside the top three.

There's definitely some positives to bring, but still a sense of unease about the way that Mark Skinner's going about things. How do you read the first half of this campaign for the women's side? I think if you look at the table, people go, what are you moaning about? Exactly, that's the bizarre thing, right? I just get this sense, and I've got a piece coming out on Christmas Eve, a lovely Christmas Eve treat for you on the impact of Ineos coming up to their one-year anniversary on the women's team.

And the thing is with the women's game, you can win an FA Cup and you can be in the top five of the table and drift. And that's fine because there isn't that depth in competition. You have Chelsea as the leaders and then you've got kind of Arsenal, Man City as the ones trying to challenge them. And Ineos are absolutely fine to say no.

The men's team are the priority. We're sorting out the coaching and the facilities. And it's just TBC at the moment. Skinner's got a contract until the end of the season, TBC. Got a head of women's football, Matt Johnson, an interim until the end of the season, TBC. We don't really have a plan of how we're going to win the WSL by 2028, even though Omar Barada has said that's for the men's and women's team. And we're quite happy not to have a strategy and just let that drift.

So the results, yeah, 1-0 finish at Crystal Palace to finish off the year. But I don't see any realistic title challenge prospect in the near future. Definitely not until the end of this season. So looking at 2025 to 2026. Lady came up to me on to Matt Busby way today and she goes to all the women's games. She said, I'm just concerned. I'm concerned about the way it is. But also that a lot of money has actually been spent and

as Charlotte says, so much of it seems to be TBC. Charlotte did some really good background stuff on Amarim in Lisbon, but we should also mention our colleague, Laurie Whitwell. He made a trip to Portugal as well, and he did some good stuff around the Braga game.

He's not talked about that much, has he? Just one other thing. You talked about the anxiety in the stadium. I think it's because the team looks so unsure when they're trying to pass out, that feeds into the crowd. It doesn't inspire confidence when you're thinking, it's going to lose the ball here. And there were several times, I think, Malassi gave the ball away, which led directly to a Bournemouth attack. And that was before the first goal. And the fans can feel that. They're not stupid. They know what they're watching. And they know that they're not watching a vintage team.

I would say on that, they're up against a team that is so good at that. And I know it's just Bournemouth and it's just the 11,000-seater stadium, as Andy would say. But the way that they've... I mean, they've beaten City, they've beaten Arsenal, they've beaten Tottenham this season, all by using that game plan where they press high and they get at teams. And when they come up against opponents like United, who are still trying to figure things out and are still what...

Has it even been six weeks yet? Or has it been a month, basically, since the start of the Switch game? It's really not. Six weeks. Six weeks, OK. Six weeks into a new manager trying to work out a new system. I think those vulnerabilities were always going to get exposed today. It was just to what extent they were going to get exposed. In the end, it's a 3-0. I think also you looked at the clip for the derby and Amram's going, ''Ahmad! Ahmad!''

And it's very much that, like, I'm looking to the coach of what to do because it's not automatic. They don't know where each other are. Those connections in this new system take time. And Bournemouth are so well drilled. They know exactly where their teammates are rather than kind of looking to the sideline of going, oh, where's Ruben telling me to play? And it felt like that. And those seconds are costly. You don't have time in Premier League football to...

be judging or questioning where you're going to play your next pass. No, it's a great point. I noticed as well when the subs were made and Bruno Fernandes was dropping deep in midfield, he was looking at the bench to say, am I going right? Am I going left? Is Maino going right? Is he going left? And those little things working out, any sort of indecision around that can definitely have an effect, no question.

Right, I'm going to say goodbye to Critch and Charlotte. It's been lovely to have you on for a little moment. We'll get you on in the new year to talk properly about the women's side as well, Charlotte, because the impacts of Dan Ashworth leaving, how the season's going generally as well. We'll do an update on that and we'll look forward to the piece on Christmas Eve as well. Merry Christmas to all Talk of the Devil fans. Yeah, Merry Critchmas as well, Critch. Thank you for coming on. Merry Critchmas, everybody. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Charlotte. Thanks, Critch.

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Well, what a treat. This has been our revolving cast on Talk of the Devils today. Laurie Whitwell is now joining us at home. Hello, Laurie. You okay? Hello, I'm good. I'll check my sisters. I'm around here for a roast. A roast three days before Christmas is an odd one, but there we are. It was very nice.

I'm sorry to inconvenience you by joining the podcast on this Sunday. You've been inconvenienced by Manchester United as well. We've just been through the performance with Andy, with Critch and Charlotte. Andy's still with us, obviously. But we want to talk a little bit more about some of the general themes as United head towards 2025, because this is actually the last podcast that we're going to do online.

in this calendar year. Obviously Wolves on Boxing Day, Newcastle on the 30th as well to look forward to for United. But Laurie, the big talking point, you've been writing a bit about it as well, outside of the football is the situation with Marcus Rashford. Not in the squad again today. Again, Amarin explained it was a selection. It wasn't a disciplinary issue in his words. It wasn't an injury or an illness or anything like that.

The longer this goes on, the more matches he's left out of the matchday squad, it becomes harder and harder to see him getting back in, doesn't it? Yeah, in a way. Although I do think that, as you said, after the derby, Ruben Amorim's trying something different with Marcus Rashford. So I think he's seeing that through. So it wasn't, I didn't think, going to be a quick win.

re-emergence for him into the team because I think Amarin's obviously made a decision based on what he's seeing in training and his general perception of Marcus Rashford's application and I think it's quite significant the reason for him coming out of the team out of the squad and I think he's challenging him to up his standards and show that commitment show that desire to play for Manchester United again and I know he's done the interview hasn't he sort of talking about the

looking at a departure and leaving the club. But surely he'd have to get back in the team first to earn a good move away. And obviously there's huge complications with any kind of transfer away in terms of the wages, in terms of a transfer fee. But yeah, I mean, I kind of view it more as this is something that I think Amarin set out to do initially when he decided to take Marcus Rashford out of the squad. And I don't know how long it would go on for, but he will only bring him back in when he feels that he's going to add

to the team and he's deserving of a place. Yeah, it was interesting to hear Amarim say before the game that it's solely his decision. It's not something that's come from above. It's not like they have any influence as such, the leadership team, on this sort of decision. It's being driven by the Manchester United head coach and no one else. In terms of training, I understand Rashford's involved. I understand actually he's been training well from what's been said, but...

there is a very specific change that Amarin wants to see, Laurie, and he says that everyone at the training ground, no matter who they are, are very clear on exactly what he wants to see. Yeah, and I think we've touched on it before, haven't we? Where,

The reason why he came out of the team under Eric Ten Haag early this year was because he went on a couple of nights out in Belfast and then reported sick for training, missed a training session, missed a couple I think, and then obviously didn't play against Newport County. But Eric Ten Haag did bring him back for the very next game. Wolves kind of challenging him to prove himself and then he went and scored. So that was one approach. Amarillo seems to be taking a different approach.

and I think he wants to have complete confidence that he's got a Rashford that he's dialed in and doing absolutely everything that he can in training, out of training to be at his peak. Yeah, it's obviously a situation that's going to continue. Again, it's going to be interesting to see if there's a way back for the Wolves game on Boxing Day for Rashford. Either way, the story's going to continue. There's no question about that. I mean, in a way, Andy, is this the Manchester United manager, I'm going to call him head coach,

laying down his authority on this group taking on someone like Rashford sends quite a message to everyone else doesn't it? Yeah it seems clear that it is like that but I also feel that he must have the backing of those above him to be doing that and

Rashford wasn't featuring today. I've seen Casemiro not featuring. You've got two of Manchester United's three best paid players there who are no longer starters in the new manager's perfect 11. I know saying perfect 11 is a bit of a stretch because it changes so much. Especially when the team are 13th, yeah. Yeah. Is there a perfect 11? Yeah.

And I think Laurie's point about Rashford last year at Wolves, we were both stood outside the ground last year at Wolves. We knew what the sentiment was around Marcus Rashford last year at Wolves, except it was only this February, but it seems like a long, long time ago. But we also saw how quickly the sentiment can change because he scored after three minutes and fans who'd been slagging him off were singing his name. So that shows how fan sentiment can change really, really quickly. I'd be really surprised to see Marcus Rashford start at Wolves. Wolves is also the place where he was dropped the season before Wolves.

So this is a place where Marcus Rashford makes headlines.

And maybe the manager, and I wouldn't be surprised if he did it this way either, goes, right, here's your chance then. I've made my point. Come in, do what you did a couple of years ago, around this time of year, if I'm not mistaken. Weaved his way through, scored a great goal. Cobby, who I thought was pretty poor today against Bournemouth, scored a wonderful goal, his best goal at Wolves last year. Wolves, come on, lift the mood again off the floor. Yes, please. Tons of emails, Laurie, on this. We did a lot of them, obviously, in the last podcast.

Again, the conversation is reflecting a lot of the thoughts as well. But this one stood out from Laura, actually. She said, I fear there's an element of burnout with Rashford. The high turnover at United has felt exhausted as a fan, let alone as a player. I just want Marcus to be happy and flourish. I hope he can do it with us. But if it means leaving the club, I'd support him to do so. I've never forgotten his speech after the Europa League final against Villarreal.

There's so many different ways to view this. There's kind ways, there's unkind ways, there's critical ways, there's understanding ways, there's positive, negatives. Manchester United fans across the board have got so many different views on this, such deferring views as well. I'm conflicting myself when I talk about it. But the one thing is, it

it's going to need sorting out now, isn't it? Already, Amram's beginning to be asked, is this a distraction in the background, this situation going on? It's fine when you're winning games. It's fine when you win the Manchester derby. But when you go out of the League Cup and then lose to Bournemouth, it's easy to start saying it's a distraction. Yeah, and obviously the fact that Marcus Rashford still is one of United's top scorers this season, you know, in terms of goals and assists. I think it's only Bruno Fernandes maybe that's got more. That's the thing. It's not like he's...

it's not like he's been really poor, is it? Okay, his performance level, you'd expect to be higher at times, but he's contributed. Yeah. And so that's why I feel like they're trying...

they're taking a broader view of this, you know, in terms of perhaps what's been going on for, you know, a year, 18 months, I'm not sure exactly how long, but, you know, and Andy's point there in terms of, I think, the whole club being on the same page of this. You know, I believe that, you know, Amarin isn't acting alone in this. You know, obviously he is the driving force, but equally you've got the executives that are on the same page. And so then it comes from Marcus Rashford himself, right? And obviously you,

you can view it different ways in terms of, I think Laura's point there was a very astute one that, you know, he's come through at such a young age and it was such an incredible, you know, he really did break out into the first team, you know, scoring on all those debuts internationally as well. And he shouldered a lot of the burden for United for several seasons and played through pain. He's done a lot for the club in that part.

And then you sort of wonder, has he got drained by everything at the club? I don't know exactly in his life as well. You sort of wonder, does he want to have just different perspective at this point in his life? So I wonder, yeah, you hope because he can be such a fantastic player at his best. But obviously the interview that he did, it felt like, okay, this is towards an exit now and a separation. But like I said, that would be easier said than done.

But I think everybody would like him to be on the pitch smiling happy. But obviously that has to really come from him.

Yeah, OK. We'll await the next update on the Marcus Rashford situation. While we do that, let's talk about some of the other issues that United have got on the agenda as we head towards the end of the calendar year. Laura, you've been writing about Harry Maguire. So he's out of contract at the end of this season. There's the option for an extra year, as is the way with a lot of the Manchester United deals. But there's some uncertainty over exactly what's going to happen with that. Yeah.

Yeah, a little bit. I mean, obviously his statements after the derby, wasn't it, where he said it was very positive. I think that is to be taken totally as the most first-hand account of what's going on. But that being said, it's not a done deal. So let's see. And the thing is that he's got this plus one in his contract. So he is technically able to

it sounds they haven't triggered that so he's technically able to speak to foreign clubs in January even sign a pre-contract agreement for the summer so he would be a free transfer in that sense but if United then try and trigger the plus one after he's sort of agreed to join another team it kind of becomes maybe a little bit legally complex it's an interesting one to debate and I think we've not had this before have we with someone maybe signing a contract in January and then having a plus one done after that or have we we've had it through a few more fringe players certainly not someone as big as Harry Maguire but

So if you look at Amari Fawcett, for example, he ended up going to Monza and talks were going on. Manchester United offered him a contract. The club felt they had to run around a little bit, but certainly no one as big as Harry Maguire. Yeah, I mean, we had it, I suppose, in the past, Paul Pogba or Jesse Lingard. So, you know, they could have...

you know technically united if they decided actually after the event to you know try and keep them then that would have been an interesting uh dynamic but i think this is the first time where you've got a player that they would like to keep but they're kind of debating exactly what kind of contract they'd want to give him and what he wants and then he's also definitely got interest from you know clubs abroad i've told that napoli you know they've had a good success with scott mctominay so antonio conte loves the premier league yeah

I mean they get on well don't they Scott McTominay and Harry Maguire I'm told and you know West Ham made a joint bid for them sort of a couple of well last summer was it the summer before so yeah I mean you could maybe I'm sure they've been talking maybe about the Naples you know cuisine and the pizzas or whatever the Aperol Spritz but yeah

So I think he's got options, Harry Maguire. And starting again today, I know it wasn't the right result, but I don't think you could really criticise him too much for the goals that went in. It was sort of different players, I would say. But yeah, I feel like it's been an interesting one to observe, but it feels like Harry Maguire wants to stay. So I'm sure they'll come to some resolution, but it's just going to be an interesting one exactly how it works out. I think from their perspective, they think United need to be quick. I think he would like to stay.

I'd pay good money, by the way, to hear a conversation between Scott McTominay and Harry Maguire about Aperol Spritz. Feels like a more lorry conversation than that, doesn't it? Yeah, I've got just Italian, you know, sort of cocktail there. But is that right in Naples? Have I got that all wrong? I don't know. I mean, Naples is famous. I'm being put into a corner here that I can't answer. Maybe pizza. Maybe he's saying the pizzas are absolutely brilliant here. Yeah, it is famous for its pizza.

An Aperol Spritz, you can see it sort of being drank maybe on the Amalfi Coast or something like that. You can see the promo around that lovely picture with the scenery behind Mount Etna. Not by a lad from Sheffield, with a lad from Morecambe. LAUGHTER

No, when you make that point, yeah, fair enough. It's the Stockport lot who are into the cocktails, isn't it? Another thing, this post-season tour for Manchester United. Malaysia seems to be the destination. I mean, did the drink wrapper all spritz there, Laurie, you know, in sort of early June? Oh, I'm just thinking live shows, right? Can't we follow them out there and get something done over there? Kuala Lumpur. I'm putting the bosses into a corner here, making the pitch live on a podcast.

Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? And I wonder how this will go down because Newcastle got a lot of criticism. I think Spurs have done one, haven't they, for going to Australia post-season. Is it really what you want to be doing? Didn't they play each other? Yeah, I think that was it. There we go. So they both had to then travel. But, I mean, you know, it'll raise what we think is maybe something like $10 million and you look at that as being important, I guess, for the, you know, PSR calculations. But I do wonder the...

maybe of having a long season and then flying to the Far East and then having your players, you know, I don't know, performing in some kind of friendly, you know, it just feels a lot. And then you think about then pre-season tour, are they really going to stay local for that? You know, I doubt it. So it's going to be a lot of travelling in the summer, in a kind of summer where they could have, you know, kind of got a bit of rest.

rest and keep their feet on the ground. You've got to fit in the trip to Bilbao in there, Andy, as well, haven't you? Oh, yeah, that would be a belt to that. United are very popular in Malaysia. I've seen them play there several times. In fact, I once went there in 95 and

and was in Kuala Lumpur, was in the country. And four days before United were due to play, the game still had not been confirmed. It was supposed to play two matches. And like 30 of us just travelled out there and were waiting. And it still hadn't been confirmed. That sort of stuff wouldn't happen now. Manchester United would get the money banked. Money does talk. It's not just some English clubs who do these post-season matches. Barcelona have been to Australia and the United States a couple of times in previous seasons.

The money from one of those games or two games can basically pay for a top player for a year. So I think that it will become more of a trend and players increasingly complaining more about it with good reason as well. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what the reaction is from the players and manager when they...

when they hear about this, when it's confirmed, I'm sure they'll tow the club line as you'd expect. But there's also internationals, isn't there, in June? Post-season internationals. So players will be, you know, you'd expect a lot of Manchester United players will be involved in that as well. Right, just before we finish then, just to preview these matches, Laurie. Wolves on Boxing Day, fresh from a 3-0 win over Leicester in Vito Pereira's first game in charge. We've got his first home match and he's already lamented

taking on a team who are getting a new manager bounce, which feels like it happens more often than not for Manchester United. Also Newcastle as well, before the new year, because we're not actually back until the 2nd of January. So there's these two matches to look ahead to before we face the prospect of Anfield in the Premier League and the Emirates again, this time in the FA Cup. They need wins, don't they? It's desperate really, isn't it? I mean, bottom half at Christmas, what a start that is.

first time in the Premier League and it just really emphasises where they're at. I mean, I'm kind of reflecting on my post-Everton tweet where I probably got a bit giddy and it was sort of, I called it a bit of a statement for Ruben Amorim's tenure and I think maybe reality has bitten and

this is probably the level of the squad where you can go away to somewhere like Man City, pull off a good performance and, you know, okay, it had a bit of individual brilliance didn't it too with Ahmad but, you know, they could do that kind of thing against a city side that's obviously weak but then, you know, play at home to Bournemouth and it was a, you know, kind of like a bit of an even game in a way but then obviously Bournemouth go ahead first and,

then they just put the foot on the gas and United just so loose defensively. And you're just sort of thinking, well, you know, they feel so brittle at times, you know, to play against. So away at Wolves, they've actually done all right, haven't they there? You know, the 4-3 and obviously Rashford scores a couple of times. So yeah, as Andy says, will he make headlines again if he comes back? And then Newcastle as well. I mean, they looked really good against Stipswich. You know, that was a really good,

strong result performance from them. Isak's looking sharp. So, yeah, they're going to be two really tough games and it just feels like you're just not sure what you're going to get from Manchester United's team at the moment. Yeah, I'm absolutely sure because this pattern's going to continue. It's this win-win, lose-lose. So...

I'll tell you exactly what's going to happen in Manchester United's next 10 games. Wolves away, win. Newcastle at home, win. Liverpool away, lose. Arsenal in the cup, oh no, lose. Southampton at home, win. Brighton at home, win. Rangers at home, lose. Fulham away, lose. Bucharest away, win.

Palace away, win. Tottenham away, lose. Everton, lose. Imagine if it just goes like that right through the season. I've not seen a shred of evidence which tells me that is not going to happen. The one thing about it, Laurie, and I'm going to try and finish on a positive note, the goals that Manchester United are conceding are really soft goals. They're set pieces, they're individual errors. Stop making individual errors, stop conceding from set pieces.

And it sounds simple, but you can see how in open play, the defensive solidity that they are finding, the consistency of selection, I think helps as well in that. It could turn...

a bit more meaningfully, couldn't it? We're just cutting out those errors and set-piece goals. Yeah, for sure. I mean, although I will say that if they keep happening, you sort of wonder whether the play is therefore good enough. Like, can you just turn that off? You know, I think it kind of is just part of your game if you switch off maybe or... I'm trying to finish on a positive, Laurie. I know, I'm sorry, Ian. I know, I'm trying to... OK, well...

How about Rasmus Hoyland coming on? I thought he, you know, again showed a bit more potency. It feels like they're getting into positions where they make the right pass or right movement and it's a goal. There was a few like that today and I sense that maybe Garnaccio and Hoyland, kind of each one of them wanted to have a shot when they should have passed or vice versa and you're sort of thinking, okay, you just need to have trust in your teammate in those moments and understanding totally the

they're going to be on the end of a pass or they're going to pass it to you and it feels like that's not quite there at the moment to get those goals that are obviously going to be so vital to affecting the momentum of a game. Right, we'll leave it there then for 2024 on Talk of the Devils. Thank you, Laurie. Thank you, Andy. And thank you for your company listening along as always as well. It's been fantastic to do this podcast throughout the year. I won't get all soppy like Carl did at the Etihad.

Doesn't feel like a day for that. But yeah, it's been absolutely brilliant. So thank you for all your support. We never say this, but rate and review if you like. Get yourself subscribed as well, wherever you listen to your podcasts. Tell your friends and we'll see you the other side. So a very Merry Christmas from all of us. A Happy New Year as well. And let's hope, please, there is some positivity to kick off the new year. Thank you again. Take care. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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