Fortunate Fulham winner for Martinez as United strikers struggle
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network. This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. And here we are again, sat recording a new episode after Manchester United have won a football match. I could get used to this.

Should we? I'm not sure. But anyway, we are here to reflect on United's victory that we all predicted at Craven Cottage. No matter the situation, no matter the form, no matter the players, the manager, whatever, we always win there, don't we? We did say that. Happy birthday as well to Ruben Amorim.

What a way to mark it. His 50th, as he said. It's amazing what Manchester United does to you, isn't it? Obviously, we'll talk about all the details from the win in London. We'll also talk about the new development with Manchester United's stadium project and the wider redevelopment of Old Trafford. We'll also preview the...

match against FCSB which we are definitely supposed to call the team that Manchester United are taking on on Thursday in the Europa League we'll have all the details on exactly why that is and the sort of shape they're in ahead of that match as well as United of course look to book their place in the knockout stages

I've got three men looking back at me. They all look ready to talk. They all look happy. They're all in different places than usual. Andy and Laurie are in London hotel rooms. Carl is in our London office. And yeah, it was absolutely dreadful, Carl, but they won, didn't they?

Absolutely dreadful, but they won. I'll take that. We'll vomit and move on, right? I think that's fair enough, Andy, isn't it? A win's a win. The record at Fulham stays pretty fortuitous. Manchester United were not peppering the Fulham goal, to put that lightly. No. But you can tell by the tone that it's a second win in a couple of days.

is there a chance that Amarinko get manager of the month for January? Well, I'm dreaming of the top half. I don't know about you. You know what I mean? I'm sort of beginning to look ahead and think, oh, there's only that many points to here and this many points to there. 10th place still feels a very long way away, Laurie, doesn't it? So are you now actually getting excited about Premier League matches, Ian? Because you were suggesting the jeopardy of

fallen out of your instinct for watching United games because a win takes United 12th and a loss plummets them to 14th it feels that way doesn't it because and that match was an example of that right where you've got I mean both teams were pretty anemic but United in particular to have to wait until certainly you know Lissandra Martin has struck the ball for their first proper shot maybe I mean I would still give De Ligt's header in the first half a bit

a bit of an XG. That's kind, though, mate. That is kind. I mean, I suppose perhaps if you glass half full in it, they were pretty organised against a side that can pick teams apart. But yeah, there was a lot of awkward aspects to the game that I think will give United problems if they continue. Although, could they do three wins in a row for the first time this season? Slow down. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Tranquillo.

Heady days. Yeah, you never know. We'll preview that match in Romania later. Carl Lissandro Martinez, let's start by talking about him. He's had his critics this season, certainly. It's not been the best of what we've seen of him in a Manchester United shirt at times. But his attacking output, you wrote about it in the match piece on The Athletic. He's actually having a decisive impact on football matches all of a sudden, isn't he? Yeah, it's a bit unusual. So the goal against Liverpool...

was nice. He got the assist for a MADS winner in the Manchester derby, an assist against Rangers. Now he's got the goal here. There were a lot of conversation about his use as a left-sided three in this new formation and it was all about, oh, he's passing from deep, it's going to be really useful. But I don't think many of us predicted he'd actually start popping up on the edge of the opposition's penalty area and start hitting the ball as hard as he possibly can.

Yeah, as Andy said, a bit fortuitous to take a deflection, but this is happening once or twice now. Let's see if Amarino fertilises it and it continues going forward because he does hit the ball very hard and that's quite nice to watch. Yeah, he does. I mean, yes, okay, this particular goal, you know, the shot was fortuitous to loop off Amarino.

the full-on player and going to the back of the net. But Andy, the sense of Martinez having an impact on Manchester United attacking is not fortuitous. It seems to have been an interesting development of the last few weeks. Well, the goals have got to come from somewhere and they're not coming from the forwards. There is that. I spoke to Martinez after the game, outside that lovely cottage in the corner. I said, what about the goal? And he just said, amazing goal.

Amazing, he said. Great finish, great finish. And he was joking, then he realised he was being recorded. He went, no, no, no, no, no. As a team, we work together and three points are very important. Did he explain the celebration? No. I don't think anyone's asked him what it was about. Does anyone know what it was? If you put a competent journalist in front of him, he might have asked him about it. Well, there's probably more interest in pressing aspects with Manchester United up to 12th

than exactly how Martinez celebrated after having one shot on target, unless you're Laurie Whitwell, throughout the 90 minutes. No, no, that was the first shot on target. The first shot, I can't remember the exact time signature of it, but Duncan Alexander figured out it was the exact time.

time United had their very first shot against Arsenal. Oh yeah, 41-27 was it from memory? There we go, yeah. One of those weird glitches, why does it take United this long to warm up? Yeah, it all happens in the 41st minute 27 second of the match. It's a bit unusual. Let's talk about Toby Collier before we moan about the attack maybe, Laurie, because he

And again, having a good impact off the bench and that goal line clearance was incredible, wasn't it? Absolutely astonishing. I mean, it just looked a goal from where we were sat and then for Collier to anticipate it...

sense that Anderson was going to win the ball and where he was going to direct it, get back on the goal line, but then to execute the clearance is quite remarkable. To kind of stoop his head down and get it away from danger in a moment's notice. Absolutely superb. Really pleased for him because he's clearly somebody that the players...

like and feel they want in the team. You could tell that from Martinez's interview, couldn't you? Martinez's interview, yes, for sure. He was very strong on that. And obviously we'll get on to quotes from the manager that were kind of a different ilk about another player, let's say.

but Yoro Martinez with the kind of like sort of strangled him at one point in their celebration. It was that kind of raw, emotional outpouring of you've just won us the game here. It was, it's as good as meaningful as Martinez's goal, that, that intervention from Collier and the replay show just how close it was to going over and how precise Collier had to be. Well, it was getting it away from the players who were running into following on as well. What, what,

how deliberate that was at that moment, I don't know, but it was perfect. I think he's a smart player, he's an intelligent guy and he clearly gives his all and I thought technically he's comfortable on the ball but perhaps the next step is to try and be more penetrative but you know what you're getting from him and I think that's what the players really like and I didn't know he was going to be able to do that.

Just a quick word on Martinez whilst I can. I don't know if you know, but I went over to Portugal for a game. The outside centre-backs were getting forward. At one point, they crossed. One crossed for the other one. I asked Ammarin about Martinez after the game and said, is that what you want from your outside centre-backs? He's like, yeah, basically. They need to be getting forward into the attack to make it more of an offensive formation rather than a back five, basically. I would imagine we'll see this more from Martinez. Get them in your fantasy team then, eh?

Yeah, exactly. I think so. I think it could be that kind of vibe, you know. He said he was going to give Amarin a tunnel for his birthday and there was a bit of lost in translation because he was speaking in English and

but he didn't know what it meant. And he said, well, how'd you say this in Spanish? And I'm like, well, a tunnel is a tunnel, um, but you wouldn't call that a tunnel. Is it a canyon where you put the ball, where you go through someone's legs? And, um, I'm sure there's, I don't, I didn't know the proper answer and neither did he, but he said the players were going to surround him in training on Monday. A nutmeg. Yeah. So in, uh, in Spanish and in Italian, a tunnel can be, is what they describe, uh,

A nutmeg? Yeah. Ah. So that's a caño. So putting the ball between the legs is described as a tunnel because you tunnel it through the player's legs. Yeah.

But we're talking about tunnels in, you know, lad's tunnel on your birthday. A gauntlet. Exactly. Gauntlet. I think Laurie's right, yeah. Yeah, it is. And I didn't know the answer to that and he was obviously disgusted with me. Well, they do that, don't they, when there's players coming back from injury, right? We've seen this with Noro and Shaw and other players. So hopefully he gets a nice pat on the back from all of them, not like a dig in the arm. If we could imagine there'd be a few, we'd be tempted to give him a dig after the last few weeks. Yeah. Yeah.

Anyway, moving on swiftly, let's talk about the attack because we've mentioned how United did stutter going forward again. The attack has been, certainly the centre-forwards, has been a huge talking point throughout this season, really, throughout recent seasons for Manchester United. And Rasmus Hoyland in particular, Laurie, was the theme of your piece on the Athletic. Some of the stats really stood out to me in that piece. 12 shots throughout this Premier League season.

The same as Aaron Wan-Bissaka, Nathan Collins, Konstantinos Mavropanos and Joe Eribo. Yeah. That just, I had to read it twice. Well, I didn't actually include everybody. There was a few more sort of names that you... You just picked out the worst ones, did you? I mean, you know, trying to rev it up. That's the Daily Mail within me, the sensationalist. But yeah, there was a few other, I would say, perhaps even, you know, more awkward comparisons, you know,

that you could perhaps have picked, but kind of went with the defenders. But it's the number of touches as well, you know. So it's like the fact that he's had 33 touches in the opposition box this season. I mean, okay, Mohamed Salah is an absolute outlier, but he's on 248. And then you've got Ahmad for United, 113. Well, Ahmad's an awkward comparison considering he barely kicked a ball before Ruben Amarin came in. Yeah, yeah. So they're the kind of numbers that show, okay, he's got two Premier League goals.

How is he going to change that number with those kind of figures underlying everything? And now, is it a team problem or is it a Hoyland problem? It's a bit of both, isn't it? Because you look at last night and it was...

I don't know, it was kind of painful to watch him up against Anderson who was just gobbling everything up. It was getting into those physical contests again, but it was also his touch. There was a moment that I thought crystallised everything in the 29th minute when he kind of had a heavy touch to a ball from Ahmad who was trying to start a quick counter-attack and then seconds later he got the ball back

and you could tell that Bruno sort of hesitated even though Hoyland was in a really good position in between Sanderberg and Lukic and kind of behind them and he kind of paused just a split second and Fernandes is usually razor sharp on passing to his teammates. He eventually did pass it but again his touch let him down and Anderson nipped in

And, you know, then Robinson even kind of shuffled the ball out of Hoyland's reach when he was trying to press him. You know, again, commendable from Hoyland, but he just let out a howl into the night sky and you're sort of thinking, you know, you understand the issue here. And Ammarin afterwards, I asked him again on that front and he said,

basically said that there's a disconnect there, you can see it, and that only comes from training time after time. And that is fair because there was a moment later when it was actually a really good chance. When I watched it back, Hoyland sort of runs near post. It's a really lovely move and Garnaccio's touch is excellent from De Ligt and the overlapping run from Masraoui is exactly what you want. And then Hoyland actually does run near post, you know, like he didn't do at Anfield that I was kind of critical of him for. And he's in interbase and it's an easy kind of cut back and maybe it's a hard, you know,

to absolutely nail it but Maserati lofts the ball to Dalot instead and he was like in the middle of the box and he'd have to produce a worldie of a header to get you know a shot on target there and obviously Robinson clears it so there's obviously a disconnect there and I'm going to sort of talk about that only coming through training but also Hoyland isn't isn't being sharp and you question has he always been like that will he ever reach the levels that you need to reach as a United number nine it's obviously unfair to kind of

put so much pressure on him when he only had one proper season in Serie A and then he's a lot of money coming in, 72 million. But these are the kind of questions that you're going to be getting asked when you are leading the line for United and I think it's a serious issue for United to address.

Confidence has gone Andy hasn't it? Yeah it's worrying and I'm glad Laurie mentioned Anderson because he did have the measure of him and he is coming up against top full backs and that's another thing Martina said in the Premier League every week and Anderson's obviously his compatriot he knows him probably better than anybody and

But it's really worrying because even when the ball was going in the area where he should have been winning it, he was barely touching it. Or if he was touching it, his touch was often letting him down. And he would come back to try and get involved in play. And that is usually a mark of frustration. Going back years ago to Gary Birtles, when he was a huge signing, he would come right back. And Frank Stapleton, his fellow striker, said, no, no, no, get near the goal. That's where you're going to get the goal.

Came off after 57 minutes, another game without scoring. I think that's 11 now. It is a concern because you can see he's a player. You can see he's got the attributes, but he was the poorest Manchester United player yesterday by a distance and it gives me no joy saying that.

And he is young and he is a victim of circumstance and changing systems. At any other major club in the world, there wouldn't be the reliance on him. It's not his fault that Marcus Rashford isn't getting picked or that Anthony is misfiring or that Manchester United missed out on other players.

He is there. He is turning up every week, as Ruben Amarim said. Extra training after sessions, right? Yeah, training. Commitment, yeah. He really is trying hard. We all want it to work out for him. But I just looked at the top scorers chart in the Premier League. There's no Manchester United players in it, and it's really worrying. But we've got Lissandro to smash him in.

That's where I think it could be a structural issue as well, Kyle, because I looked at Understart, a very detailed website with some data across the Premier League, and according to them, not just Rasmus Hoyle and Joshua Xerxe as well, obviously the two players who were playing centre-forward predominantly for Manchester United throughout this season, Ten Hag and Amarin being in charge, Rashford's had a few games, but Joshua Xerxe is ranked 77th in the Premier League for XG.

He's had a combined XG throughout the season of 3.81, scored three goals. Rasmus Hoyland is ranked 108th in the Premier League for XG. Throughout this entire campaign to this point, his combined XG is 2.35 and he's scored two goals from it. For anyone who's still not sure about XG, that's basically the expectation from the quality of chances he's been given is that he would score two goals, maybe three if he's overperforming the data a little bit.

So that's two centre-forwards who are both struggling in this Manchester United side. That's not these players missing a load of chances. That's these players barely getting any. It's the players barely getting any. And also these players are not hunting to turn quarter chances into half chances and half chances into goals.

So, Laurie pointed out the run Hoyland had in the 20th minute. One chance that really frustrated me happened a bit later on where the ball is coming out from the back, from the defensive third, just past the halfway line. And Hoyland is not watching the flight of the ball properly because the ball might likely go into space if he chases it properly. And he's just...

forgive me for the crudity, he's essentially grinding up against the center back. As you do. Because he's getting ready because he wants to duel for the header. And it's infuriating because if he runs into the space, the defender will get spooked and not be so stationary. And that's the sort of thing he needs to be doing.

I spoke to a club analyst at a club that isn't in the Premier League but is currently competing in the Champions League about Hoyland and they basically said they believe he's picking up some bad habits now in that he spent however long

not being played to his strengths, trying to do this target man role that he's becoming fixated in this physical duel and trying to battle with these six foot defenders instead of running the channels, which is what he's best at. This is a six foot two, six foot three striker who can run 100 meters in under 11 seconds. Why is he so stationary? Right? This is, Hoyland used to

be very good at running near post and very good at running back post and creating separation from defenders by getting against a broken defence. And he's not gambling in the way that he used to. Why do you think that is? I think that's confidence. I think it's confidence. I think it's the... There's the term learned helplessness, where if the cross isn't coming in in the first half, you're less likely to make the run in the second half. Martial was especially guilty of this later on of his time at Manchester United.

And it's really frustrating to watch, right? This is a player who should be able to use his physical gifts so much better than how he's currently using them. But at the moment, he's in these weird arm wrestles with centre-backs and he's not even dueling them properly. He needs to engage his core, right? He's six foot two, six foot three. Throw your hips into a centre-back if you're doing it properly. Come on. You're going to tell him he needs Bovril next, aren't you? He needs a lot of things, mate. And that's the problem.

Do you think that's what Amarim was getting at, Laurie, then, in terms of his quote after the game where he said, sometimes he goes long when he needs to go short. I'm paraphrasing a little bit and vice versa. We need to get into him in the training situations because his decision-making at times is wrong. Do you think that's...

he's acknowledging that he's just it's not a lack of effort but it's just making the wrong decision at the wrong time maybe still I think that's a lot of it yeah and obviously that is from understanding and trusting your teammates to find you I think he's got a pretty decent understanding of Martin as you know because it was obviously his ball at Anfield that put him through and it was a nice run from him in that moment recognising that Liverpool's defensive line was a little bit fragmented and he could stay on side he did a similar thing I

I can't remember which part of the Fulham game it was, but he kind of acted disinterested when Anderson was kind of backing off him and Martinez had the ball and then he suddenly shot in behind and Martinez found him and then he gave it to Garnaccio and Garnaccio's cross hit a Fulham player and they only had one United player in the box anyway, so it might not have come to anything. But that was the kind of thing that is a repeatable thing

and can work. Other times you've got Onana just kind of hopefully putting the ball up to him and that isn't, I don't think, good for anybody. Okay, maybe Hoyland could do better in those moments as Carl's suggested and I agree with him but equally the kind of opportunity to gain possession for him is pretty low because it's a hopeful pass rather than one done with...

and reason. So, yeah, it's a cumulative thing. And obviously in the situation that United are in, it's difficult to get those training sessions into a player and work

when there's so much pressure on the situation to kind of have the you know kind of freedom to try things and be a bit creative so yeah it's a it's a tough ask hopefully if United don't have to play two extra games in the Europa League there's a little bit of space to breathe that kind of thinking into Hoyland and his teammates he's got so many raw tools but he's not shooting enough

And I think if we're going to expand the tunnel gauntlet thing down at Carrington, you're probably going to start telling Hoyland, you've got to shoot twice on goal. It doesn't have to be on target, but I need two shots per half. And if you're not, you're in the tunnel. Until you learn. Get in the box!

OK, if you want to know more about Hoyland's issues at the moment, Laurie's piece is up on The Athletic. Before we move it on though, Andy, we need to mark Edwin van der Sar being at Craven Cottage yesterday. Brilliant to see him and great to see him in such good health it looked as well after the problems he's had. Yeah, and he was applauded by both sets of fans. He served both clubs incredibly well. He was obviously at Fulham

Before he joined Manchester United and he was a veteran. I remember the signing in 2005, I think it was. But nice to see him there. Not just him, but his family as well. And it's a very homely club. After the game, I saw Fulham players just stood in the street signing autographs for fans. I'm like, how many Premier League players could do this? And it is a beautiful stadium. They're not shy on charging tickets.

a lot for the fans to go into that beautiful stadium. But van der Sar is one of the best keepers in Manchester United's history. He's had recent health issues, but he's a good guy. I know Laurie went to see him a couple of years ago in Holland, not on his trip to Portugal. He did another trip, Laurie, you know, got to the World Cup.

I'm actually reflecting on that interview in a piece on Anthony that should be up by the time people listen to this podcast so just rehashing an interview that I was quite pleased to get but yeah I agree with you and I thought it was brilliant because he went over by the United fans didn't he got absolutely serenaded by them Rio Ferdinand was in the TV studio filming him obviously his old teammate and then he did a bit of an interview afterward didn't he so good to see him in good health.

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Okay, moving on then. When we recorded the last podcast, we weren't aware exactly of what had gone on with Rangers fans at the match at Old Trafford and the tickets that they'd managed to get hold of in the home end. We had lots of emails on it. Jessica said, I'm not exaggerating to say there were probably hundreds of away fans very near me in the home end. People were moving seats as they felt unsafe and parents with kids were leaving at half time. I normally feel pretty safe at games, but tonight I felt very on edge and left before the end. Yeah.

James as well. The latest podcast, Andy said the Rangers fans were better than United's on Thursday and that's fine. He's obviously entitled to his opinion. However, I was disappointed that after praising the away support there, there was no mention of hundreds of Rangers fans in the home end. Well, that's because at the point when we recorded, we weren't fully aware of the situation, Andy, were we? And obviously this has

caused issue again between the fans and the club about exactly how those Rangers fans got those tickets. Yeah, I had loads of messages on Friday, the day after the game, in a similar vein about Rangers fans were sat near us and

I said it after the Galatasaray game a couple of years ago. People want instant reactions. I'm going to try and build up a picture of what actually happened. Unfortunately, I can't do that immediately on social media. I need to speak to people, and I've been speaking to lots of people, including Rangers fans, to find out where they got the tickets. And so many answers there are not what people will want to hear. I think there's multiple parties to blame here.

And I will continue to research it because it was pretty uncomfortable for a lot of people. Yeah, we'll definitely talk about this situation again because...

It's happened repeatedly now, hasn't it, with some of these Europa League games, and it'll be something to keep an eye on as United progress in that competition, hopefully. As I've mentioned already, we'll preview the match against Stour Bucharest or FCSB later on. Right, Laurie, another piece that you've written over the weekend on The Athletic has been about Manchester United getting government support for the regeneration project of Old Trafford, which feels...

like an important landmark moment, this? I think so. It's the first time you've had the government say anything publicly about what, you know, United hoped to happen, really, which is to get public funding, really, for the area around the stadium. And so what has happened is the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, has basically said that she'll champion the initiative, the project, the community hub, and...

calls it a shining example, basically, of the kind of growth that the Labour government are trying to instil. A big thing of Keir Starmer's agenda is to sort of cut the red tape that they, you know, suggest was part of the last government. And, you know, so that's housing across the country. But as part of this, it is to do with sort of big infrastructure projects, which, you know, Trafford Park, the area around Old Trafford would,

be if they're able to actually figure it all out and kind of get the financing for it in other ways now how that actually works let's see you know Rachel Reeves doesn't talk about that in the announcement nobody talks about the finances of it yeah that's still the biggest question it's still the biggest question but I feel like this is this basically was a sign that

the government are open to this. Whereas before, they've been kind of, you know, United aren't going to get any public money. Come on, Jim Ratcliffe's a billionaire. They're a club with £700 million revenue annually. You know, what is their business getting, you know, taxpayer money?

Now, clearly, the government feel that there is some value to it from their point of view, from the public purse, because if it's an area that gets regeneration, then it's good for the community. Let's see how it all pans out. It's going to be a controversial issue, isn't it, with people across the country. But, you know, you could make an argument for saying that there's justifiable reason for having

public finances used in that area to help with transport, to help with community. Yeah, and the point is that the public money is being used for those things, not to build the stadium, which, you know, that was the immediate reaction from people saying, well, why are the government paying for Manchester United to build a new stadium? That's not the point. Which would be wrong. Yeah. And that's still the big question. How do you fund...

a £2 billion new build. We touched on it in the Year of Ineos piece where Ratcliffe in part had previously said, what about Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos privately funding it? So they are looking at different options, but obviously the debt that's already on the club makes things extremely difficult to go and get more

loans let's say yeah obviously there's still not been a preference stated by manchester united andy for whether they want a new stadium or whether they want to redevelop old trafford this feels like it's pushing more towards the new stadium idea again um we'll wait to see exactly the findings and and report that's been put together by the task force on that but

What do you make of this development? Are you encouraged by it or do you think the fact that there's still no explanation about how exactly this is all going to be paid for is an even deeper question now? I'm encouraged that the government are prepared to support it rather than block it. You want the government on side.

You want the government to be helping because it isn't just a new stadium. You need the area around it as well. And you've got to sell a case, a project, not just for a stadium. And it also, it should benefit local people. There is a housing shortage in Manchester. Now, football is only one part of this. But as you rightly said, people were jumping in, right, this means this is happening with the stadium. It's nothing to do with that. That's still not been decided yet.

And as Laurie said, we still don't know how it's going to be paid for. That is the biggest question over all of this. And going back a few months and people were saying, yeah, build a new one, but keep Old Trafford. You're in la-la land. You're absolutely miles off. Who is paying for this? Whether it's a redeveloped stadium or a new one, I suspect Sir Jim Ratcliffe prefers a new stadium. We've seen some results from fans. There is a divide on this. 100%. And...

The money, where's it coming from? That's the main question that needs to be answered. Yeah, there's a lot of buzzwords going around, Carl. We're talking about turbocharging development and the biggest opportunity for urban regeneration since London 2012 and all this sort of stuff. If you just read the quotes, it's quite easy to get a little bit excited, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Speaking as someone who grew up in East London when London 2012 happened, I've got my eyebrows up just a little bit going, hang on.

And Andy's right. We don't have information on who's paying for this, which leads me to believe, and again, speaking as someone who grew up close to Stratford, the longer this goes on and you don't have clarity on who's going to pay for it, the higher the chances the person who's going to pay for it will be you, the Man United fan, somehow.

That's the interesting, awkward bit here. And of course, yeah, it does not surprise me that Rachel Reeve and Starmer have spoken positively about the regeneration project. Governments like having big, shiny public infrastructure projects. So even when things years later are finished and you go, oh, what did this government give us? They can go, well, they actually built this thing over there. So,

redeveloping Old Trafford and the area around, redeveloping the area around Old Trafford, I should be specific, absolutely sounds like a good idea. And when they're using buzzwords and talking about how it would create so many jobs, really sounds promising. And when they talk about building housing, sounds really promising. But Andy's also right. When you talk about building housing, is it for the annoying southerner types like me who...

ridiculous glasses. Manchester has enough skyscrapers already right now. We need affordable housing. We need things and jobs for people locally in the area as well rather than this very odd sort of brain drain thing that Manchester keeps trying. So yeah, interesting buzzwords but just be wary because everyone's talking and not actually doing stuff right now. Yeah, and speaking of being wary, the atmosphere amongst Manchester United fans towards Jim Radcliffe

demonstrated, Laurie, yesterday that they are wary. Yeah, I mean, it was quite striking, really, because the chant that we heard, so, I mean, maybe we shouldn't necessarily voice exactly what they were saying, but obviously it was strong terms equating Jim Ratcliffe to the Glazers, basically, and obviously we know what United fans think of the Glazers.

and also singing 66 quid you're taking the piss and this was I'm told you know I sort of looked at it and thought they must have seen Jim Ratcliffe in the director's box because he was on that side where he was he had a couple of big yellow mitts on and so yeah I spoke to people that were in the away end and they said yeah we could see and then we sort of started getting the chance going because they want to make their voices heard and

So they've obviously done previous stuff, the protests with the 1958 group before the Everton game and other supporters from different clubs as well, Man City, Everton, Liverpool, you know, stop taking fans for granted. Also, must have actually said,

released an open letter this morning to Sir Jim Ratcliffe calling for a ticket price freeze and an end to the war on season ticket holders. And there's some detail in that letter that I'm sure will be on The Athletic by the time people listen to this. So they're trying to make a concerted effort, both, you know, I think now in the stadiums visibly, you know, it's a TV game. It was picked up by the mics, right? People could hear it. And also with kind of lobbying behind the scenes and also applying pressure publicly with these letters, you know,

We also saw Jim Ratcliffe after the game in his car with a couple of fans. There's a video on social media where they're directly having a go at him, really. He winds the window down. I'm not sure to try and placate them or to say I think they want a picture, but it doesn't really last that long, the conversation, and they're obviously pretty angry at him. So you'd wonder...

how much does he take on board that kind of stuff? Andy asked him questions directly on this and so I've been treated to know his thoughts but surely that has some impacts on you as an owner to have that in the back of your mind and thinking about what you're going to do with ticket price rises because Carl's absolutely right. The way that United will look at this is by

raising ticket prices is by extracting more money from the people that are so wedded to the club that they feel like they have to keep giving money to the club and maybe removing discounts I'm not sure exactly of the mechanics of what they would do we know that's what the £66 tickets was all about removing concessions for under 16s and over 65s so

I feel like that was a really interesting episode. I mean, Jim Ratcliffe is there in a stand that Fulham have just built, right? That has a swimming pool on top, which I actually didn't realise until I went last night. You're sort of wondering, is he looking at that thinking that Old Trafford could use a sort of open pool at the top? Manchester rooftop pools? No. No.

Even London and rooftop pools, I'm not particularly sure. It was pretty chilly last night and pretty blustery. Yeah. Andy, what's your reaction to this? I mean, Laurie said there, you've spoken to the man himself about these issues. How do you read what his response will be to this sort of criticism and things like the open letter from Must?

I've been writing about ticket prices since 1992. There's nothing new here and it's something I've felt very strongly about and always will do. And it's the reason why I asked to interview him and it's the reason why I spoke to him face to face. And people read exactly what I said to him and I stand by what I said and I'm sure he stands by what he said. Ticket prices are a major emotive issue for Manchester United fans and working class fans should not be priced out of watching Manchester United.

We know that changes are going to come. The club just need to be aware. And I think they are. I told him. You've seen the reaction at the game last night. In mitigation, I like the fact that Jim Ratcliffe goes to matches because the Glazers weren't turning up at matches. I like the fact he's spending a lot of time on Manchester United. I think he's making some mistakes. But...

United were losing a fortune. That's why the Glazers announced that strategic review. Anybody in the world could have tried to buy into Manchester United. Anybody. We ended up with two groups, right? One of them proved that they had the funds. And that's the Jim Ratcliffe. And he's come in and he's picked up an absolute mess. He can't say it publicly, but I can, from the Glazers.

If he hadn't have come in, what would have happened? Manchester United would have continued to slide, continued to lose money. So very, very tough decisions need to be made. They just do. I know football fans don't like to hear this. I know some fans were even saying to Jim Ratcliffe, buy some new players.

The facts are Manchester United were losing 80-90 million quid per season That cannot carry on If it does you're going into liquidation You're going into administration These things happen Someone's got to take the tough decisions The unpopular decisions I don't think they should be £66 tickets But people have lost their jobs People have done nothing wrong There's so many negative sides to this

but I don't have a magical wand or any other way and it seems that nobody else in the world does either. He's come in, he is trying to make changes here but we're on the bumpiest road ever and it's really awkward and we're going to see more and more tension and ticket prices is a major, major issue. I've made my feelings really clear, we all have.

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Okay, before we preview the match on Thursday then, which I've teased more times than I've ever teased anything I think on a podcast ever, but it is coming on Thursday and the preview's coming as well later on in this podcast.

We need to talk about transfers. Just a quick section because it feels like in some ways not much has changed. Laurie, I know you're across all of this. So if you can, here's a little challenge. Try and fit into an answer. Anthony moving to Real Betis. Let's you playing hardball on Patrick Dorgue and Amarim's latest comments on Marcus Rashford and his future, please.

Well, you left the humdinger to the end there because it was quite a scene in the press room at Craven Cottage when he was asked, it was the final question for Mark Ogden. He'd had a pretty good press conference prior to that point, you know, joking about him saying stuff that he then regrets in terms of him being 50 rather than 40 to the TNT broadcasters. Obviously, he's 40 today. And he went and then said something else that was quite

Eye-catching in terms of Rashford. Yeah, Mark Ogden asked him, you know, what does he have to do to get back in this team? And, you know, Amrim basically said he has to change, you know, I'm not going to change. So, and he mentioned his training performances. He mentioned his life as well, which obviously we've touched on on the podcast and in The Athletic. So the...

but the main sort of headline was that he would rather put his 63 year old goalkeeping coach george a vital on the bench than a player who doesn't give the maximum in training every day he's not the most mobile either is he yes exactly we've seen him kind of around the place we actually were a little bit confused who he meant at first this is sort of bad on us because i thought he meant radek vitek the kind of reserve goalkeeper and then i realized he was on loan uh

and he kind of slightly got the name wrong and I was like he hasn't done that surely and then we realised he means the 63 year old as you say fairly immobile goalkeeping coach so I think his statement was even more profound when we realised that and

And, you know, OK, people will say he's not talking directly about Rashford. I've seen that on social media. But the questions were about Rashford, trust me. And, you know, it's disingenuous to say otherwise. So how does that leave his transfer situation? He was obviously at the game, arranges in a private box. And clearly he would like Barcelona as a loan outlet for the rest of the season. I'm sure United would like that.

Let's see, it's going to be financial. The same thing with Patrick Dorgue. Lecce are holding out, they say, 40 million euros. Whether they actually are, it's unclear. United have made an offer which we believe to be 25 plus 5. I don't think that's going to be accepted. It might have even been already rejected, but the talk will continue. Alvaro Fernandes is there in the background as a buyback option if United do want a left wing back to come in this window.

And then, what was your final one, Ian? Sorry, I've talked so long that I've forgotten the first bit. Anthony. Anthony, going on loan to Betis. Just explain why they're paying 84% of the wages, why that particular number, that would be helpful. I think that they want to make it clear that Betis are contributing quite a lot to Anthony's wages because there's been reports about Anthony being on £200,000 a week and it's not true. He's on...

this season, about £105,000 a week because he's got the Champions League cut in his contract. He was on £140,000, something like that. It's around those figures. So, bettors can afford him, basically. The wages weren't so much that they ruled him out of loan options, which is, you know, I guess, well done for negotiating that deal. Obviously, not so well done for negotiating an £86 million transfer deal. But yeah, and then just to

a very small flick because we have had mention of this in sort of dispatches elsewhere but Christopher Nkunku as a potential loan option because you're looking at the Alejandro Garnacho situation thinking if he really gets sold...

How on earth can United then go without replacing him? And potentially, Christopher Nkunku on loan might be that option. I'm not saying anything's advanced and nothing's close, but maybe just one to keep in mind. Okay, we have got two more podcasts before the close of the January transfer window. And of course, the Athletic will be right across every single detail of this. Andy Mitten looks so excited, he can barely contain himself.

I know what he will be excited about though. And that's a trip to Romania on Thursday. Am I right? Or am I right? Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I went there the week before COVID. And I've seen United play there a couple of times as well. And I'm on my way there actually. I'm going to go from London to Germany. I'm spending a bit of time with...

a football team from Ukraine and then I'm going to end up in Bucharest. FCSB in the national arena in Bucharest. Yeah, bring it on. Yeah, bring it on indeed. Right, let's get some more detail then on the team that is FCSB. Why exactly they're not called Staua Bucharest anymore and the shape that the side are in to face Manchester United on Thursday. Here's Romanian football journalist Emmanuel Rossu.

There's still a massive ongoing legal case between FCSB, the team Man United will play on Thursday in the Europa League, and Staua, the army sports club who now own the brand. The historical Staua brand is in the Romanian army's possession, who have a team in the second tier, a team which is blocked there basically because they have no access to professional football because of an administrative problem.

law in Romania that prevents them from making a step into professional football. But the dispute is still there. The legal case is still in the judge's hands. There have been verdicts. They have been attacked by both parties. But as things stand, the brand and all the related symbols attached to it

being held by the Romanian Army through the Army Sports Club Stella Bucharest so on Thursday you're going to hear a lot of Stella chanting because more than 90 percent of the fans who identify themselves as being Stella supporters are backing this club fcsb the club owned by billionaire uh Gigi Bacali a guy with a with a big big mouth you've surely heard of

He's already very enthusiastic about the game. He's sure that he's going to win on Thursday. And the fun fact is that he's going to attend the match. He stopped coming to games four or five years ago. He only returned for...

one or two occasions. He went to Salonik in Greece earlier this season and before that he celebrated the title win for FCSB but before he stopped attending matches for three or four years but he promised to be in the stands for United's visit on Thursday because he wants to see what level his team is at. That's what he told us.

FCSB is not anything special by football standards, but they are a team who can surprise you. They try to play fast football, but they will be bothered by the absence of their captain and their most important player, Darius Olaru, who's had an operation on his shoulder and will be out for two or three months.

So yeah, FCSB is not anything special, but judging by United's problems this season, they could be troubled in certain circumstances on Thursday evening. The match is a sellout. It's not just a normal sellout, let's say, but it's absolutely nobody can get a ticket now. It's a big problem.

case in Romania because not even VIPs, not even politicians are able to still get tickets because the demand is so big. More than 50,000 people will attend and we expect an electric atmosphere at the National Arena in Bucharest on a Thursday night.

Emmanuel, thank you. Absolutely fascinating to hear about the politics and the legal cases behind Stour Bucharest and FCSB. We'll talk about the team that Manchester United will face on the pitch in a moment. But Andy, this situation is incredible, isn't it? Yeah, I'll write a piece about it for The Athletic. I went over there and

It is as clear as mud, mate. I found myself being surrounded by like eight hooded lads trying to explain to me how they didn't like FCSB. And then I found myself talking to the captain of Stour Bucharest team from winning the European Cup in 1986 and

And, right, you're Stauer, but your goalkeeper has now switched to the other club. So I went to the goalkeeper's house. He died last month, Dukadam, legendary goalkeeper. So you now support different clubs, but you both claim that it's the same club. But wait a minute, can I just sit down and just start writing this down? Yeah, I'll tell you what we've got for you, Andy. We've got some legal papers. There's 462 pages here in Romanian, which you might want to have a look through. Crazy. I'll try and make sense of it, but...

The arena which was built where United played Galatai is going to be full. It's going to be like 55,000 people. Bucharest's a decent city as well. And I'm looking forward to it. And there's not the pressure on Manchester United that there would have been if the team wouldn't have got that win against Rangers.

There's still some jeopardy though, certainly. I mean, there's four teams of which FCSB are one of them, just a point behind them. So United are on 15 points, FCSB and Tottenham are on 14 points.

And there's other clubs who could catch United as well. So, Kyle, it's still a match that United need to win. And listening to Emmanuel talk about FCSB and the atmosphere and the sense of occasion there, they're going to have to be up for it, aren't they? Absolutely. You can't treat this one like a dead rubber. This might have some similarities to some of United's visits to Turkey in recent years where the atmosphere almost shocks them and has them start slow for the first 10, 15 minutes. I hope so.

Amarin can keep everyone focused. I don't think he's going to make too many changes. This might not be a game for Casemiro, but I don't know if Amarin does believe there's ever a game for Casemiro anymore, which is interesting. It's a match for Toby Collier then.

There you go. Could well be, couldn't it? He's certainly impressed in recent weeks. Laurie, just in terms of the team that Manchester United are facing, second in the Romanian Superliga on goal difference, level with a team called, and forgive me, this is even tricky for me and I've practiced it,

Universitatia Cluj not CFR Cluj who Manchester United have faced previously in the Champions League they're the other team from Cluj both scored 34 goals as well but the Cluj side have conceded three fewer

Lost once in the league since August, FCSB. They didn't have a great start to the campaign, but in the Europa League, they've beaten Pauk, they've beaten Michelin, they've beaten Karabag, they've drew with Olympia, Eikos and Hoffenheim. Lost 4-0 to Rangers though, so that should give some confidence, shouldn't it? Yeah, I mean, let's take that one as a signifier of the level that they are and hope that United can...

get through and win in Bucharest and slip smoothly into the final 16. Why do you sound the way you sound? Because I don't really know what to expect from this game. I don't know anything about FCSB. Thank you very much, Emmanuel, for your voice note giving us some information. Andy, I'm sure he's going to enlighten us, absolutely. I'm just going to turn on the TV and see what happens. I'm not out there. Andy's absolutely chuckling at your reaction.

I mean, what changes can he make? I mean, yeah, I would think Collier probably starts, Xerxe probably starts. Is Garnaccio going to start with all the questions around him? Bruno clearly will start. Would you play Malasia? I mean, why not? Let's see if he can actually perform again. Every time he started, he's played 45 minutes and then he came on, didn't he?

against Fulham and played actually on the right-hand side. So, you know, that kind of left-inverting full-back that Amarin likes, you know, let's see about that. But he didn't really have much to do, did he? But yeah, actually, I would say let's give him a last year ago and let's see what his levels are.

Andy, anyone else you'd like to give a go to in Laurie's enthusiastic tone? No, I reckon if you do like a Venn diagram of what the four of us are most into, the crossover point between me and Laurie is like his weakest when we're asking Laurie about Romanian football teams.

I mean, you say about the team from Cluj there, the way my brain works is when I went to Cluj, I went to the other stadium of the team who were top of the league, but no one cares about stuff like that apart from me and maybe one or two of our on-balls. I'm interested. I am interested. It's just, I'm interested. I found the detail from Emmanuel fascinating. Emmanuel's a top guy. I meet him when I go over there and he tells you, he's really interested in talking about rugby

Romanian football he actually runs a tour for ground spotters round Romania where you go to these mad second and third divisions CYA friends can you imagine anyone who'd be interested in going on one of those things er

no Andy I can't he says to me you'll have to come there's no way I'm getting that past my wife without a complete lie not a chance just do what you normally do and go on holiday there and don't tell her just say you're going out for the day and then I went to Barnet on Saturday right it's 24 quid to watch a non-league game I was bored out of my head and my wife said where are you I just said London for work and

It doesn't need to go any deeper than that. There you go, Romania for work. I'm in London tonight and I'm either going to go to Chelmsford City or Carshall and Athletic. But even I know that, you know, I've got to have my limits, haven't I? Chelmsford City is...

Yeah, Kyle, come on, a bit of local knowledge. Tell him where he should go. I haven't watched Chelsea City since I was maybe 17. And even then, I remember it being quite bad. Yeah. Well, Laurie's eyes have glazed over. Do you want to come with me, Laurie? Do you want to come across with me? I've got plans this evening, Andy. I'm really sorry. Let me just think of some. Sorry.

I can't wait for the transfer window to be open. Like the window warriors all come out and you don't have to stand on the street selling fanzines as people come up to you going... Window warriors. Window warriors. That's what I've decided to call them now. The new transfer junkies. Yeah, I invented the term transfer junkies. I'm proud of that. It's my turn. I do think January brings out a different type of transfer junkie, which as you've now so eloquently put, the window warrior is now a thing in January. I definitely think there is a different...

feel to the January transfer window than the summer. What about window worriers? United aren't making a signing. Andy's a window worrier. I think we've got a worry. I get why people are worried because we've been bobbins this season and we do need new players but you can't buy them when you've got no money. Yeah, anyway, you're all welcome on this podcast, window worriers, window worriers and anyone else who doesn't identify as a window worrier.

type of thing you're all here you're all welcome and we love doing these podcasts for you I hope you enjoyed that another magical mystery tour of Manchester United's latest trials and tribulations but Carl Andy Laurie thank you so much for being with us as always Emmanuel thank you again for doing the voice note for us and thank you for listening along we'll see you after the match against FCSB whatever happens on Thursday thank you again take care bye bye

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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