Hojlund & Garnacho score: Ruud's Leicester dispatched
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This is Talk of the Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. And here we are, all sat round a table in the London studio in the athletic office. Been let out for the day, haven't we, Andy? We have. We did a live show last night at the Leicester Square Theatre. Thanks to everybody who came down to that. And it's a beautiful morning in that London and we've made our way to the studio. And unfortunately, I've got to look at you three while we do this podcast. It's a bit of a mess.

In real life. The viewing in person is much better though, isn't it? Well, it depends on your take. I mean, I'm quite happy. And taste. I prefer a few more pixels actually. Okay. I'm sorry to Andy. He's seen me every single day since Sunday. He must be getting sick of this. We got on the train down to Leicester as well. You're going to get quite emotional, you two, when you part later, right? He just said to me, can I have my sandwich? Can I stop talking to you? And he just like, eat my sandwich. I did say that. You actually asked politely. Yeah.

I'm going to stop talking to you now. We had a great night though, didn't we? Leicester Square Theatre. It was amazing to see so many of you there. And thank you again for everyone who came down. We might be able to tease the fact that there could be a few more live shows coming. Sounds like you just did. At some point in the future. More on that in a few weeks maybe.

It was great though, wasn't it? Absolutely brilliant. And yeah, apologies to everybody that was expecting a podcast straight after the Leicester game. That is why we are on them. We did warn them. We did warn them. I'm not apologising. You were told. No apologies. Enjoy this podcast. I think it's probably the fact that United won, so...

People want to enjoy it, savour it. Yeah, that did affect the mood last night, didn't it? I mean, the atmosphere around Ruben Ameren and the team is different. Okay, it's only two wins. And actually, I was in a lift. We're in the athletic office, but we share it with a few other different floors, different companies. And I'm not here that often, and somebody gets in, takes one look at me and goes, so what's the score with football then? I looked at myself, I've got no identification that I write about football or anything. He's like, well, you know, floor four is fashion, and you're not a fashionista, are you? So it's obviously...

Seeing the trainers out there. Yeah.

I love it, the man on the street knows you're not a fashionista. Took one look at me and was like, yeah, you're obviously right about football. And anyway, turns out he's a United fan, but doesn't listen to the podcast, so hopefully, you know, we won't hurt this, will we? Me slagging him off, but hopefully I've convinced him to now listen to us. But he was saying, calm down, it's only two victories against poor sides. Exactly right, we're allowed to have a bit of enjoyment, aren't we? Well, you've got to, haven't you?

Yeah, well, take the opportunities when they come because there's not been many of them, to be fair. Yeah. What did you just say to us before recording about the rest of the season? Oh, we'll talk about that in a bit. The mood's lighter, though. It's been a good week from the football perspective. We're smiling, aren't we? Yeah, Leicester was brilliant on Sunday. I know we'll talk about it in detail. Brilliant away end.

clean sheet, Rasmus Hoyland scored, we knocked Real Sociedad out of Europe, everyone's buzzing, talking about how you're getting to Lyon, what you're doing to Bilbao, can't believe you booked Bilbao already, what if we don't get there? Well, you've got to wedge your bets. The performance against Arsenal brought out a lot of positives, so the mood is lighter. And, and,

It feels nice because there are so many times a season when it hasn't been like that. No, that's very true. Yeah, obviously on the podcast, we'll talk about that win against Leicester on Sunday. There's the Andy Mitten News Hound exclusive that we need to talk about as well, where Manchester United announcing the season ticket prices for next season. There's an England squad without any Manchester United players, which is unusual. What? Well, there's a currently contracted Manchester United player, technically. Yeah.

Yeah, it's on the website actually that there is a Manchester United player in the England squad but yeah, we'll talk about the players going away to internationals and we'll also look ahead to the remainder of the season which Laurie's teased already to be fair but yeah, Kyle you were there on Sunday, Manchester United winning 3-0 away from home at Leicester, players breaking goal droughts,

It was just a very successful 90 minutes basically, wasn't it? And it makes you feel like you want to play them every week. Just a bit, just a bit. It was a straightforward win in the end. It took about half an hour for United to finally find their fluency. Rasmus Hoylen got his goal just around the half hour mark. It's a goal that Hoylen's been trying to score for a while and I'm going to probably try and write a piece on this

throughout this international break about his shooting because I know I've been effing and blinding and moaning about how he doesn't shoot enough I spent about two hours in a tactics truck last week looking at all of his shots from December up until just before the lesson you have some lovely past times is that what you were talking to Andy about on the train when he was like please can you stop talking he was reading a non-league magazine of course he was

Hoyland likes to sort of drag to wide, get on a ball in a corner, burst into open space and then shoot low to the far post. Normally, he doesn't get the separation from a defender or that shot to the far post. It's too close to the goalkeeper or it just goes a bit wide. Against Leicester, he got...

Maybe two or three extra touches from a very generous back line. But the good thing there was once he got that shot in, it went in and you could see the relief in his face. It really meant a lot to him. Well, yeah, first goal in 21 matches. I mean, that's a hell of a run for a player who has been under so much scrutiny, Andy. Because that's the thing, we've all had differing views on him. But you just hope that that goal can ignite something now. I thought he played well in the previous game against Real Sociedad. Definitely, yeah. And...

Someone pointed out he's doing things more simple, so I watched him pretty closely the other day. Leicester are really struggling. Leicester can't score at home. Do you think the manager told him to keep it simple? Do you think it's a direct instruction, that? I don't know for a fact that he has told him that, but it was an observation that was put to me. And more effective, he's going to be judged given his fee against bigger teams and what he does, but it was...

I spoke to him after the game, and I know he's struggling, or has been struggling to score, but he's a very confident lad. He's very self-assured. Even now, do you think? Because I thought confidence was maybe a bit of an issue. I think confidence has affected him, but when he talks, I wouldn't say fronts up, he's quite assertive. He backs himself. He backs himself, which you want from a striker. He's needed to, hasn't he? I mean, he's not getting any protection, is he, to be fair? There's no one else stepping up and scoring goals when he's not either, so...

He's a young lad still. It was a big move for him. He'd not played that much senior football at the top level before he came to United. So there's probably a difference in Rasmus now than when he first arrived in that he needs to be a little bit more bulletproof because he's had a lot of things shot at him, to be fair. United have over-relied on him. I spoke to Teddy Sheringham about him about 10 days ago.

And I was really struck by how positive Teddy Sheringham, who knows a thing or two about strikers, was about Rasmus Hoyland. He knows a thing or two about coming through a difficult spell at United. Yeah. Yeah, you mentioned about this before, but I don't think we actually sort of explicitly said what aspects of Hoyland's game that Sheringham liked. I'd had a few beers when I spoke to him. Hence why the detail got left out last time. But he did rate him. Cheers, mate.

He was very sympathetic to him. Sorry, Carl. Lack of service, definitely said. That was after the fourth pint. He also said it's very difficult coming into a club where there's things out of your control. So he came into a club of serial winners and it was still difficult for him and he was still criticised. So imagine coming in

age 20 or 19, he's only 22 now, I think, Hoyland. Teddy was an experienced 30-year-old England international for Tottenham and it was still difficult for him in a pre-social media age. And he just said, cut the lad some slack. He saw things in him that led him to believe...

he's going to be the real deal. And I've had other people just shake their head and go, nah. But Teddy knows, doesn't he? The boxer tools Hoyland has, if you want to build a modern centre forward, you want someone of that height, you want someone of that speed, you want someone of that broadness who can tussle. But there are times where you talk about he's confidence on the way and he's probably tussling too much. When you talk about simplicity, he's not.

Like Laurie observed, I think it was against Fulham. The ball goes over the top and Haun is not looking at the flight of the ball. He's looking for the centre-back he has to wrestle with. And you go, no, you want to get your heels spin. Whereas against Leicester, he was running down the channels a little bit more. That's effective. It was also useful that this was one of Dalot's better, more consistent games out wide, crossing the ball. He had maybe 10, 15 minutes where he shanked two or three. But then once he got into his flow, delivery was getting better. Central midfield,

Ugarte being back in allowed Bruno Fernandes a little bit more of a platform so United got to assert their dominance a little bit more which meant Rasmus could play maybe five yards further forward which is what he wants to do there were two or three times when the ball's going over the top and he's now going I'm going to run ahead and try and run him behind which is useful I really do like going to the King Pell the press box is quite nice you've got a really good angle of how well the cakes Kyle come on that's the real do you not have any cake?

I did not. Wow, they have like a selection of cakes usually. I mean, this is obviously speaking as someone who went there regularly for years. But the press box gives you a really good angle. So one thing that also came forward, I was talking next to Charlotte throughout the game, was just how the back three moves to a back four all the time. So De Ligt got licensed to go forward from right centre-back, whereas Lindelof was talking to Aidan Heaven throughout the entire time, arm out to Heaven, basically going, I need you to stand in line. You need to be my insurance policy. If the ball goes over the top, I'm not going to be able to

spin around and get there as quickly as Heaven did. And that was really interesting to me because Lindelof is an interesting centre-back. But one thing that doesn't come up in any stats or any highlight rules is he's nicely gobby. He is actually, yeah. He's noisy, isn't he? That was one of the fascinating things about when United played in lockdown. You sort of begun to understand who talked and who didn't. And Lindelof was one of the talkers back then. You mentioned Aidan Heaven. Do we know yet on his situation? Yeah.

I don't think it's as bad as it was feared. I think the fact that you guys saw him walk out, okay, he had a protective boot on, but... No crutches. No crutches. I'm told that he's been at Carrington without a protective boot. So, you know, you just surmise from that that it's not going to be too long after the international break that he returns, hopefully. Because it got very serious, didn't it?

at the time. Yeah, it's strange that Sky, I was watching it on TV, didn't show a replay of it. I mean, I know you don't want to go in gratuitously into somebody's despair, but I feel like it did then sort of raise this kind of suspicion of, okay, this is a serious, like a leg break or something. And obviously it's not that. So yeah, hopefully more positive because it was devastating, I thought, because he'd

come through with such promise and then to have something that it looked like was going to be a serious injury on top of all the other injuries that United have had that are serious, you know, Ahmad, Martinez, you're just thinking, what are the chances? But hopefully it's not as bad as that. Yeah, especially for a lad who's making his first...

Premier League start as well and playing so well. He's superb. He was the best player. He was, wasn't he? He was absolutely brilliant. Made some key blocks. I love the fact that De Ligt, who I also think he's playing well, I think he's having his best mums, was again talking him through. I don't think Victor Lindelof had a good game. But then... But he vied hard for that chance, didn't he? He often does. But Leicester's central defenders saved him a bit because they had an even worse game.

Masraoui pretty steady lots of encouraging moments Deleuze beautiful crossing so he's had a couple of decent games as well because he's had a much more difficult season big win for the confidence at Leicester yeah definitely Harry Amas as well became the 253rd academy graduate to make his debut for the Manchester United first team he did it on his 18th birthday as well which is great and

And does this mean you'll get more questions about why Harry Amas isn't being used or will you get less? Probably less, right? Because now people can see with their own eyes and make their own judgments. I mean, I think, I know I've kind of been hesitant to say, you know, give him a chance because I think it is a jump. And did you message me and say, okay, I can see why, statue-wise, you're sort of saying he needs time to mature. He is small. Which I think people know, but he is physical. Like he can get about the pitch. He's not going to get taller at this point.

point now. He's just more muscular, isn't he? More kind of like just growing into your body. He's still only just turned 18, obviously. But there we go. Who mentioned that earlier? Good thing about him is he's got quick feet. Really good quick feet in tight spaces. So when Heaven went off, they made some swaps and Toby Colley was on as well. But when Amas came on and also when Casemiro came on, you had Casemiro being able to just progress the ball with long passes, which is something that I think Amarin's

to rely on a little bit more as a plan B of if United are playing a little bit slowly I can introduce Casemiro and he can ping it a bit more. Well that Dalot pass Dalot had made the run earlier and wanted it and he didn't pass and he went back and so the second time he did it obviously that then led to the goal so you could see that's clearly something they've worked on. Yeah for the third goal. I was working with Owen Hargreaves

on Sunday watching that game and he said that's the best goal that Manchester United have scored under Ruben Amri. Okay. Because he could see what the plan was, he could see what had been coached, he could see the movement, he could see the positions.

Chris finished though, wasn't he? Still needed Bruno to apply a hell of a finish. Amazing. Harry Mass' first touch was a cross straight to the goalkeeper and Bruno Fernandes just looked at him. Oh, did he? Yeah. You're with the big boys now. Do not do that again. Can you have a word with the others then? Yeah. Yeah.

I think on Bruno just quickly I think he is I think he's I think he's entitled to do something like that because he is from what I'm told very encouraging of academy players when they come into first team training and speaking to them and things like that so you can then you can give them a stare and just on Amas like I said I saw him at the Emirates saw him against Chelsea in the League Cup in the FA Youth Cup and I do think that the stuff that he was doing I thought okay United's

given their current situation with the wing-backs, I think maybe now I can see why he introduced him in that game, you know, when they're comfortably winning. It's the right kind of environment to do it in against a team that clearly aren't all that really. And it was interesting that he had said he wanted to bring him in for the Fulham game, but he'd played all the game against Arsenal. And so, obviously, there's conversations that must go on all the time and getting that in the

It's difficult balance, right? Because you'd want them to get games. You don't want them to just be sat on the bench. But a team like this was a nice way to get his debut, certainly on his 18th birthday. Happy birthday. Interesting that Carl said about Casemiro. You're totally right there. He's one of the few players with the ability to play a lovely ball out of a chaos area. We saw how Manchester United scored that goal in San Sebastian yesterday.

winning the second balls, even losing the first balls, long free kicks going into the middle, get it to Casemiro, he's got the physical ability and the experience to play the ball out of the danger area. United are using the wings effectively, get the ball out to Garnaccio. Did you see that on an advertising audience, by the way? Twice.

He was really, really keen to sit on that advertising order. Looked comfy, didn't it? I quite like the fact he was trying to do it really nonchalant for the first goal. So he sits down and he sort of does that, I'm not going to do any facial expression. And once the off-cycle happens, his face just drops. And I was like, oh, mate. Well, yeah, I mean, talk about goal droughts, 24 games he'd not scored for either, which for someone who had a real purple patch earlier on in the season for goals and has produced for United in the past, that's a long time ago.

Someone else, young, making their way in the first team still and being expected to deliver. He'll feel relieved too. For sure. I think the more relieved that he managed to actually get the goal confirmed...

I'm trying to figure out if it was unlucky that one should he be offside or did Rasmus Hoyland delay it slightly too long obviously he ended up it's almost like this guy doesn't pass to me so am I really going to pass to him in this moment you've got Bruno on the left Garnaccio on the right Garnaccio has the right pass and obviously then goes and finishes it brilliantly really

but obviously that little delay then it was very close offside but he was so thankfully for him he then was able to actually get the goal and yeah I mean he takes a lot of shots doesn't he I wouldn't be surprised I'm plucking this stat out the top of my head but I wouldn't be surprised if he's had the most shots for United

Guy Nacho? Oh, definitely. Maybe Bruno, but Bruno by volume of games that he plays, I'm not sure, but... Volume of games for Guy Nacho? You think even? Yeah. He plays every week, doesn't he? The thing that puts Guy Nacho aside from the other forwards, and I don't include Bruno in this, is that the way he attacks space and the way he can pick up the ball 20 yards from goal and go, right, I'm just going to run at you and try and see if I can make it. Different to the others, isn't it? And look, it can be deeply frustrating sometimes when he breaks into that final third and you go, put your head up, put your head up, and he just whacks it. Or when he...

takes it too close to the near post and you go, come on, not there. But...

If there was any player in this season, at the start of this season, I think I said, if there was any player who was going to break 20 goals, it was going to be Garnaccio. That's not come to pass. But if there's any player I'm quite confident about is going to keep getting a goal here or there when we get back from the international break, I think it'll be him. That's not quite a bold statement. He's going to break 20 goals. Actually, I've slightly adjusted this. He's going to score occasionally. Cameron was...

you were in the room and the complimentary about going at your own I wasn't in the room I was interviewing Ugarte in the mix zone saying hello to Rude Van Nistelrooy as well whose dad had come over from Holland to watch the game felt a little bit for Rude

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At Sierra, discover top workout gear at incredible prices, which might lead to another discovery. Your headphones haven't been connected this whole time. Awkward. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. It's time for basketball, and Uber Eats is dropping deals on game day favorites to keep you locked in on the action. Like when you're craving a buzzer beater, but also buffalo wings. Or when an upset makes you want to ugly cry into a pizza.

And right now, Uber Eats has game day deals from McDonald's, Popeyes, Pizza Hut, Wendy's and hundreds more local favourites. So you can keep your eyes on the ball and your hands on a hamburger. Order now, only on Uber Eats. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. What was it like to actually see Ruud van Nistelrooy lose a match as a manager in person? Distressing. Yeah. Just, you know, because it was against Manchester United. You weren't bothered? I couldn't live with that. I'm glad that we smashed him. He's a top man.

The United end was singing for him. And I said, did you notice that? He went, yeah, but he couldn't acknowledge it, could he? Because he would have ignored all the people. Just one final thing on that away end. And Garnaccio sat down right in front of it. Two of the best away ends have been at Fulham at seven o'clock on a Sunday evening and Leicester at seven o'clock on a Sunday evening. I can't think why.

And I'm not a fan of seven o'clock on Sunday evenings. And I met lots of United fans who'd stayed over in Leicester. They couldn't get back. But it was one of the best two or three of the season. It was brilliant. I was singing your song as well, weren't I? It's not my song. We popularized it, which we are available to do for future songs for a small fee.

Sean's got in touch actually saying just emailing to say it seems that Bonnie Tyler's catching on even more we've heard PSG singing it obviously United and now apparently St Mirren have also adapted the song for their repertoire I'm a Red living in Edinburgh was at Hearts versus St Mirren and heard the away fans belting out a chant to Bonnie Tyler for a lot of the game and then he's finished Sean with copycats

How have PSG heard that and then sort of copied it already? It feels quite fast. They may have been singing it before. Is it? Maybe, but let's move on swiftly. Connor as well emailed. Thank you for your email, Connor. He said, please can the buzzer stay on the podcast going forward? Well, I've not packed it coming to London, but we've not needed to. I mean, look at this positivity, smiling faces. I've not even needed to lift my finger towards a buzzer that might have been on the table last time we recorded.

Steve said, in case listeners are emailing to say they like the enforced positivity in the buzzer, I did not. Let it rip, warts and all. Okay, Steve, let's have a look at Manchester United's remaining fixtures when they come back after the international break. My goodness, right. Obviously, the Europa League's the target now. But Manchester United's league fixtures, Nottingham Forest away, Manchester City at home, Newcastle away, Wolves at home, Bournemouth away, Brentford away, West Ham at home, Chelsea away, Aston Villa at home.

Wow. Good job they're safe from relegation, is what you're saying. Well, I mean, they'll prioritise the Europa League, clearly. But they are some tough fixtures. If you want to be the man, you've got to beat the man. So I'm not... I can't keep being scared of the fixture list anymore. I'm sick of it. Might it benefit them? Yes. And after beating Real Sociedad, Amri kept bringing up physicality. I asked him...

how do you make sure your team matches the physical threat of teams going forward? He said, well, when you play against Leicester, that route's moved. Well, I talked to my route going three at the back and he's like, you've got to go man for man. You just have to start putting your arms in. And then I asked him about it again after the victory and he goes, yeah, we're getting better. And he goes, this comes with time. And I think one of the

of this international break and the fact there aren't too many players going away on their national teams is Amrit's got a little bit more time. A couple of these players will have a little bit more time in the medical room to get back to where they need to be. A couple of these players are going to go, right, this is how you scrap, this is how you throw yourself about. I'm a bit annoyed that the lid got picked up right at the last minute for Netherlands duty. I would have liked him to stay at Carrington to get two or three of the finer bits on going from a back three to a back four. But,

I think United have got better over the last two weeks and this is how you test it when you play against Nottingham Forest and you play against Manchester City look I'm quite confident about the derby oddly I don't know why They're having a really poor season it does seem pretty daunting but United have got to start measuring themselves against better teams and to beat Forest that would be have Laurie going statement victory again and

And Bournemouth, Bournemouth and the Forest games, these have been some of the worst defeats. Newcastle United as well. So Manchester United should be feeling vengeful. I agree with Carl, there is more confidence there. If we can get a couple of players coming back

away and bouncing, singing about going to Bilbao. Doesn't quite rhyme that. Follow, follow, follow. A man of your sort of taste, I don't know if that's the right word, how much does it irritate you that it doesn't quite? No, it doesn't. I like it. I just don't love it. Something's got to rhyme better with Bilbao. Would you prefer them to just like change the words to make them right? Like Bilbo, Bilbo, Bilbo, or Folau, Folau, Folau? I don't know. I don't know. I'm just happy that we're still...

The season is carrying on and we're in with a chance of going to Bilbao. Do you know there are other options that you don't have to like just say words that don't actually exist? Okay. You can just find something that rhymes with Bilbao instead. I'm trying to think of some now.

Could sing in Basque. That'd be brilliant, wouldn't it? Let's go now. Bilbao. We could be going twice to Bilbao because we could be... I've already been there once. Via? To San Sebastian? We haven't. You have. How have you not been there? Well, I flew there. I thought you went to Saussure Dad, didn't you? I went to Saussure Dad, yeah. Lovely place. After I went to Betis. I will say, Amarin did call them Saussure Dad on Thursday. Oh.

It's the easiest thing to do, Andy. Just accept it. You can't keep saying Real Sociedad because it is a pain. And if you start calling him La Real, you just seem like a hipster. But it is factually incorrect. Right, international call-ups.

Still a lot of players going away on international duty, to be fair, for Manchester United. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 players. Not as many as usual, but there's lots of injuries. You mentioned Matthijs de Ligt, left out of the original Netherlands squad. I thought he'd been left out and then somebody said he's in and...

There's some rumour that he might end up not being in. I'm sort of throwing that out there without checking it thoroughly. He was on a late call-up announced on Sunday because I was doing some work on the Dutch players being called up. Koeman and De Ligt don't necessarily see eye to eye.

He's not keen on Xerxe either. He's never really been keen on Xerxe. He tends to prefer Memphis and Vegels. Not keen on Brian McClare either after he marked him out the 91 Cup winners' cup final in the best man marking ever done in a United game. The interesting thing with De Ligt now, tactically, is he's played in a back three for various clubs, mostly...

in the middle historically but he seems to be now carving out a bit of room for himself on the right. Aaron seems to be giving a bit of room there. He's got a bit more aggressive. He's playing on the front foot more. I think maybe... Faster. Him running towards the game in front of him

I've used this to describe Maguire before. I've used this to describe Phil Jones before. If the game is in front of Dillict, fine. You can look at it, see ball, attack ball, bang, I'm going to bully off the thing. It's when the defender runs in behind, he's got to turn around and do things. And this is all really important, especially when you're playing wingbacks. Because he's not the quickest, that is where things can often come undone. There's obviously, there's the famous, famous,

mild mistake he made during the Euros for the Netherlands where he gave away a red card. Handball. Yeah. I think the last international break wasn't particularly successful for the entire server. Koeman was, I want to say scathing, but it's not scathing. It's just how Dutch football managers talk about their players. So that's a big challenge for him. I'm just really happy for De Ligt as well because...

this will mean a lot to him getting called up. Yeah, it will and it's a reward for how well he's done for Manchester United in recent weeks. Xerxe left out, Alejandro Garnaccio left out of the Argentina squad and no, this is going to get technical again with you, isn't it? But no current Manchester United player currently playing for the team available next week when the international break is over to play for Manchester United.

No player in the England squad for only the second time since 1976. And I think the first time was the tail end of last year, actually. It was a pretty recent round, wasn't it? Yeah. Obviously, Marcus Rashford has gone to Aston Villa and got called up, so that's a really interesting note in all this, in terms of what might happen to him in the summer. But yeah, I mean, I suppose it's just a...

of where United are at really, you know, with the injuries as well. You know, Luke Shaw, I know he's been injured but not played for United for a year now, hasn't he? But... Maguire, Mount, Maynard. Yeah, Maynard's probably the one, isn't it, that would definitely be in there. Although having said that, I think Maguire would probably be a shoo-in given the kind of players that Thomas Tuchel's sort of

I think Maguire more than Maynard. I mean, the midfield spots have been... Morgan Gibbs-White was left out originally. It was a brilliant season. Has he not been called up as well? Yeah, because Cole Palmer. Right, okay. Maguire chose not to go into the England team. I was focused on the live show. Oh, sorry. Maguire chose not to go into the England team because he wanted to focus on getting back for...

Manchester United but I'll leave you to the international chat because I do not care is that Andy Newshound again just giving us a bit of exclusive information just stepping in and stepping in like Matthijs de Ligt and just giving us the info is he going to be back for Forest then based on that erm

I like it. Scrutinising him here. I'll just give you one piece of information. Just be happy with that. It's my job to ask you follow-ups, isn't it? I don't know. And I don't care about the international break. No, that's why I asked you a question about the next Manchester United fixture rather than the international. I would say so if you're asking me to edge me back. But,

Don't go crazy at me if that line-up is announced. There's some bold claims being made today. I mean, Carl's saying that Garnaccio might score again this season. Andy's saying Maguire might be fit for Forest. These are big statements. He's getting back.

And he's ready to lead the charge to whatever rhymes with Bilbao. The international break, actually two weeks away, I'm shattered from all the Man United stuff, which is a really nice place to be, but I love the international breaks to get away from it all. Kyle's more of an international fan, aren't you, Kyle? I do enjoy international football greatly. I'm also double-checking what I said, because I said De Ligt played more in the middle of a centre-back in the three for the Netherlands. I'm just double-checking to make sure that was right. Well,

Well, to be honest, when I said he's faster, I thought you were talking about Xerxes, by the way. You know when you were like, everyone's looking at me like, huh? No, De Ligt looks faster as well. Okay, they're both fast. They've both been working in the old gym. I don't know if either of them are fast, but they look faster than they did previously. Okay, comparatively, yeah, yeah. They're

definitely playing in a more proactive way compared to what we saw at the start. Confidence though, innit? We talked about this a couple of weeks ago when there wasn't any confidence. It's amazing what winning football matches can do for these players, right? It's just saying it takes time. It takes just more time but with processes and repetition of the... They would have probably practiced that third goal against Leicester multiple times at Carrington but you have players that are

Coming back from injury or absolutely knackered and the execution hasn't been quite there. Bear in mind, I mean, we only got a taste of Patrick Dorger in the Premier League yet. Flavour. Yeah. Encouraging one. Yeah. Nice flavour. Tastes good. He's right. He's right. So what he will be able to offer...

In the fixtures that come back when we return. Also, it's one of those strange things. You look at the international break and you're like, wait, Manchester United got quite Danish very quickly, didn't it? It's three players for Denmark. Yeah. That's more than any other country. Yeah. Just try to work out what I think about this. If I was like a Norwegian or whatever, but I'm not. So the interesting thing I'm...

You said, you know, when it's international break, you whack on all your alerts for the various newspapers to see if any of those United players do an interview and you come through and my phone's buzzed through because Hoyland apparently... That's smart. I don't do that. They can get loose, can't they? Yeah. Hoyland's already given some chat and I'll try and put that through a translator, but I think... Already, has he? I mean, he's supposed to be one of the top striking options for the Denmark national team and obviously they're always...

When the international player isn't performing well for Manchester United, they're all going, hang on, is this going to have a knock-on effect for the international team? So, Hoyland's been...

Again, I'll put this through something better than Google Translate later on, but Hoyland's already been speaking to Danish press. I think it's really interesting, obviously, because Hoyland talks about, he basically jokes that Ericsson's his granddad or his uncle and Ericsson's like, calm down, calm down. Ericsson nearly scored one of the goals of the season on Sunday. We're saying he meant that, right? He meant that. Yeah, yeah. What did Owen Hargreaves think? I don't know. Okay, fine. What did you think?

I think you meant it, yeah. Yeah, I did. If there's one player in the team who can do that, it's him and probably Bruno. He looked like he tried it again second half almost. The goalie was beaten. Yeah.

Definitely. On Hoyland, you know, when we talk about celebrations earlier, I loved how he actually did his gladiator celebration. He wasn't shy about it, given that he's been such a long run. You said the next time Hoyland scores, it will be an atomic celebration. And it wasn't quite that, was it? It wasn't quite that. He kept it quite cool. I did also joke about how when he first started doing the gladiator 2 celebration, that film was in the cinemas and we're on the drive-in.

last night and it was like gladiator 2 now available on blu-ray and DVD and I was like yeah it's been a while it's been a while but I love the fact that he went with it still that's his celebration in it now I like that and you can imagine that actually popping off in Bilbao I would like to see it a bit more frequently maybe eczema isn't always obvious but it's real and so is the relief from Evglus

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Okay, let's talk about the Andy Mitten exclusive on The Athletic, which broke on Monday afternoon, that Manchester United will increase season ticket prices for next season by 5%. There's been lots of speculation. We've all heard lots of different things as time's gone on about what was going to happen for next season. Sir Jim Radcliffe obviously referred to it when he did all those interviews last week as well.

There's a piece actually by Adam Crafton now on The Athletic explaining how Manchester United came to this decision and some of the

work of the fan advisory board and other people within the club but what's your reaction to this Andy? I don't think anyone's ever going to celebrate a ticket price rise it's negative news no but actually it's more positive than people thought that it's only five percent for the majority yeah I was and no more for under 16 the feeling I was getting two months ago was much much higher than that yeah I'm not going to say pleasantly surprised but I was do you think they've listened? I do

And I think you have to credit the fan advisory board for pushing. I mean, I pushed Jim Ratcliffe as far as I could on ticket prices. Just got to make these people aware that,

and just explain the nuances of people who go to Manchester United matches. Someone who goes to every single game and some of the less attractive matches is very different from someone who turns up for Liverpool at home once a season. I think they need to understand that. There's a few little devils in the detail of the ticket rises. I think we should also credit a positive in that under-16 season tickets are being frozen.

I expected it to be more. If you'd have asked me a month ago... Much higher. Yeah. Yeah. So... Do you think that's part of the strategy where you're kind of going hard... Could be. ...knowing that you're probably always going to come down a bit and... Well, maybe, but it's only 5%. So... It's only 5% for now. And I know far less about this than Andy. And when I'm reading Andy's literature about this, the phrase he kept using all the time was thin end of the wedge. Yeah. Fans worry this is the thin end of the wedge. And...

However way you cut it, Manchester United fans will be paying more money for a worse product next season. Well, a better product next season, by the way. Unless Bilbao happens, big thumbs up. But there is... Oh, they'll have to pay more then because of the Champions League automatic cup scheme. So you're paying more for something that's not as good. And they've not announced the Champions League prices yet. And this is part of the big sort of...

The tech people call it "enshitification" where we just say again and shitification Okay, so things up at the public infrastructure and your tech or you pay more money for a product that's just getting worse My Adobe Acrobat used to be a lot cheaper now. I'm paying a subscription now the quality is worse. It's just shitified itself Okay, that is what I've been bad this and and and I'm not gonna put words in your mouth Andy So I'm just gonna ask you five percent now

Is that because you're getting prepped for more than 5% a season after and a season after and a season after?

I think there's various factors here. One of them is inflation. I also think United fans have had a result for a decade where there were no ticket rises for 11 years. I think there's been serious progress because of fan activism that has led to £30 tickets for away games in the Premier League, which I think is really good value. Now, 15 years ago, the likes of Fulham and Birmingham were charging way north of 50 quid. Arsenal were charging 62 quid. The big issue then was European away games and

They have also come right down. So we used to complain about Real Sociedad or Athletic or Sevilla or Barcelona charging over €100. They're now not allowed to do that. We've seen much more reasonable prices in Europe this year across all three European competitions. So I know the reaction is to moan when there's negatives, but I think we should temper this with some of the positives that have happened. If ticket prices were to go up next season by 15%, everyone will kick off completely, as they should do.

5% is a surprise to me. What's the current rate of inflation? It's not far off that, is it? 3%? It's fluctuated over the last 12 months. But there's some devils in the detail. Some people will end up paying a lot more than 5%. Well, my dad is, and I've had him on the phone this morning. What's he said? So basically, his discount, because he's over 66, was 50%.

And obviously in the announcement yesterday, it was presented by the club that the discount now will be 25%, which it's a very unclear situation why they have said that they need to be consistent on this.

So I presume that means that some people over the age of 66 were only getting a 25% discount whilst others were getting more. They brought it in didn't they so they changed it a couple of years back where it was just the standard that over 65 I think it was 50% and

And then they changed that. So you had some people that were already on the 50% just carrying on with that. But then people that were getting to 65, paying 25%, getting a 25% cut. So say you were 66, 67, but just happened to fall the wrong side of this particular line. So what they've done is they decided to spread that out across everyone that's now above 66. So I'm not coming in here now campaigning for my dad's ticket to be decreased again, but...

I think it's an interesting case study that he's been a season ticket holder since the 70s. He's been watching Manchester United since the 50s. And whilst the 5% increase for most of the season tickets is a bit of a result, for the most loyal fans who've been going for the longest time, in some cases, his ticket's gone up 70%. Yeah. That doesn't seem fair. No, well, it's not fair.

And there's other... Matches are going to be categorised now as well. That's a big thing. And it's not going to be less, is it, for certain games? No. That's your standard, OK? It would be funny, though, if they put, like, Man City is a category D. Not to respect them and say it's like six quid to watch the City game. We just don't acknowledge that they're any good. And there's going to be...

executive seats around... That's a big change. I'm a bit concerned about my pitch side position actually. You're getting elbowed out there. I'd love it if you were binned. You had to sit on the roof. Or you've got to pay 20 grand a year. Other clubs do this. Barcelona have done this. Chelsea have done this. Look at City. Brighton moved our seats in the press box last season as well because they've got their version of a tunnel club. So there's...

I don't think watching football low is a good thing. I think it's a bad thing. It's the proximity to the dugout though, isn't it? It's the rubbing shoulders. It's not for people coming to watch the football. They will charge them through the nose for this. If you just want a picture, if you want a selfie. The Chelsea ones are thinking £12,500 aren't they? Something like that. I spoke to the lads who did the Chelsea fanzine last year.

So they're obviously going for a very, very different type of person. The people I would be concerned about there is those who lose the seats. And they've been there for years, yeah. Well, that was seated in 91, 92. People have already lost the seats, though, because of the reconfiguration of the benches and the number of people that can be on the bench and our broadcast positions. South Sound stuff last year, wasn't there, with the hospitality? Well, that too, yeah. So lots of people have already been...

sort of moved in those seats for a long time I suppose that's just you feel like if it's a new stadium everyone's getting moved right so like that's going to be your result there surely if you do it properly you shouldn't and this is one thing the West Ham fans talked about a lot when they moved from Upton Park to the London Stadium is what you should do is just

we'll cross this bridge when you come to it later but when you do move to a new stadium you should just take them all in blocks and go right you're sat in this area we'll move you to this area I'd give people the choice because you'll have a lot of people who want to sit with their friends who don't sit with their friends now or they might want to sit next to this guy that's well annoying can you move mate or they might want a different view or they want to be in a different tier to what they're in now or whatever else but at least having the option to pick your seat in the new stadium in the seat that you've got as a first refusal Everton fans are doing it now and the

You can see the optimism around it. Can we just go back to what you were saying before? Because I thought it was a really interesting point. So if they were intending to do this rise from the start, I don't think this is the type of rise that is going to cause more fan anger. I think if it was higher than this, bearing in mind it's been 5% the last two years already, if it was higher than this, I would agree that I think they're coming high

you meet somewhere in the middle and people feel better because it's not that happy number. But at 5%, if they actually were intending to do this, they could have done this from the start and actually removed a lot of anger and frustration that was already simmering. Yeah, fair enough. And I think maybe I'm just sort of playing a bit of devil's advocate there just to sort of put the idea out there. But I do, I think to Andy's point, he asked him directly, you know, Jim Ratcliffe to his face about this and his viewpoint clearly was why United...

so low in inverted commas compared to Fulham. And so that has been the agenda it felt like, certainly. Andy mentioned the fan advisory board, the fans forum, must, even the protests, I think, do all these different ways for the 1958, have their combinations of putting pressure on and making people, effectively Ratcliffe, aware of the realities of it. Because how many people are able to be truly honest with him, close to him? That's the question I would ask.

I do think I would question he said to Gary Neville in his interview that he wasn't in the detail of the £66 ticket rises and maybe that's the case but I would be suspicious about that happening without his impetus surely he is driving that it feels like everything has got its

fingerprint exactly so I think I don't know I'd be so that I think that he thinks that United is an asset that people should pay more for because of the prestige of it because of the scarcity of it we'll get them up the league table then well this is then coming down to it and was it really necessary how much of a factor was the kind of millions of pounds that they paid for Everton Haag Ruben Ameren Dan Ashworth a factor in all this well this raises 15 million pound in extra revenue which helps go towards some of those decisions

The other thing I'm really uneasy with is the salaries of some of the players because this is what Jim Ratcliffe kept making the point to me, we need to give the players more money. When you think it through logically, do these players need another extra £38,000 per week? It's just really offensive. United got the £66 ticket thing wrong and they've not made every decision right since they've come in. They got it completely wrong. The concessions will be reinstated next season.

But I think you'll be seeing ticket prices a lot higher than 66 for those premium matches. It's just what Barcelona have been doing. And their diehard fans are fine with that. They're like, if you want to come in from Dusseldorf for a one-off game against Real Madrid, don't expect to pay the same as me when I'm there on a Tuesday night against, you know, sporting tapas all over the place. What a way to finish.

It's making me hungry, all this chat. Well, that is after that. Well, this has been lovely, hasn't it? To sit around a table, look each other in the face, huge grins as well. Really, really enjoyed it. So thank you, Andy, Carl, Laurie, for your company. And thank you again for a brilliant night, the people who came along at Leicester Square Theatre. We're going to be back...

A little bit later on in the week, you've not got long to wait actually, we're back on Thursday, we're going to do a mailbag episode, so please let us know if you've got any questions that you want the lads to answer, any points, thoughts that you want to make. Recently, song lyrics seems to be the choice of people's messages.

All emails are welcome. Devilspod at theathletic.com. Also as well, while I've got you, go and have a look at a new piece that's on The Athletic about the state of Manchester United's finances. It's by The Athletic's new football finance writer, Chris Weatherspoon. And it's a very revealing read. So go and have a look at that. We'll see you on Thursday. Thanks for listening. Take care. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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