Hojlund finally scores as Bilbao looms large
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This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. We are here to reflect on the latest ever draw in Manchester United's Premier League history or the latest ever equaliser at Bournemouth. Not huge amounts of narrative.

from that game at the Vitality Stadium. But obviously we are building up to the biggest game so far, hopefully, of Manchester United's season. The Europa League semi-final first leg against Athletic Club in Bilbao. We'll have all the details on that. And it's another week of yet more changes behind the scenes at Old Trafford. We'll also reflect on that too. And I am very pleased to say...

Hello, how are you?

Be good to get your noises on Manchester United's display at Bournemouth. We'll get to that. Laurie, you were there. I feel like I should start with you. What was sweeter, the last-minute equaliser or the cherry ice cream you had on the beach that you posted on Instagram? As soon as you said sweeter, I felt we've got an Ian Irving...

pun coming in. Yeah, I don't like you eating cherry ice cream before Manchester United play the Cherries, I have to be honest. I hadn't even clocked it until Rodri, who sometimes posts in our WhatsApp channel, had mentioned to people who wants a quick pre-match quiz, what is the nickname of the Bournemouth team? And obviously it is the Cherries. And so I had devoured the Cherries before the

United were unable to devour the cherries. It's not good enough. No, sorry. You wouldn't go to the Etihad Stadium and put blue ketchup on your hot dog, would you? I think only one person on this podcast has done that. I feel like Andy Mitton's got to have done that. He has been watching City a bit lately, actually. You were at Wembley yesterday, Andy, were you? No, I wasn't at Wembley. No, okay. The only time I've been watching City is for...

For work. Is that what you call it? Go on, carry on. What's your point? Well, I had a lovely day. South coast, little walk along the beach, getting out of breath and getting sunburnt. But yeah, then the game kicked off and it was a kind of familiar story, wasn't it really, from United? Stronger team than I think maybe people expected, but I also think that's with a view of getting some rhythm and momentum into the team. Clearly, as soon as 60 odd minutes hit...

Casemiro, Harry Maguire, Kobimenu all came off. That was clearly pre-planned. And even Masraoui came off, didn't he, after that sort of, well, red card thing.

after a VAR check, fouled by Evan Ilsen. But Amarin said afterwards that was just precaution. But it kind of felt that Thursday's match coloured everything, really, even though they were clearly trying to win the game. I think there was a point at which they were thinking, well, we need to win this game just so we're not going into it with two, you know, dispiriting defeats against, you know, teams around us in the table. And I suppose Bournemouth aren't

really that much around Man United these days. Slightly above, but that's fine. Slightly above. Nudged United up to 14th. These results have kind of become irrelevant, haven't they, in the Premier League to a degree. I know that might irk a lot of people because actually United should be trying to win every game, but clearly the focus is on Thursday and I think that just...

even his substitutions, bringing Chido Obi on, but leaving Rasmus Hoyland on to get that goal and get a bit of pep in his step maybe ahead of the game. Luke Shaw staying on was an unusual one, perhaps a full 90 minutes. Maybe that wasn't done entirely with Thursday in mind. And that'd be interesting to see how much he plays on Thursday because clearly he is going to have to feature. Although, in which position? Centre-back or wing-back? No, no, no. Let's centre-back.

I can't see him playing left wing back. Amarin said to Sky Sports before kick-off that this is his best position. I think Shortcourt was better when Bournemouth went down to 10. Yeah. But he's going to be a left centre-back for the foreseeable future. But he shifted up, didn't he? Well, when they were chasing the game, yeah, absolutely he did. When you look at the team though, is it the fact that Luke Shaw plays 90 minutes, Carl, that is the most surprising? Because you'd think...

He still needs protecting a little bit, doesn't he? I mean, we saw him play, obviously, more minutes than planned against Lyon and then was completely out of the squad against Wolves. So can he do 90 at the Vitality Stadium and then play in Bilbao on Thursday? I'd be surprised if he started. He has to, though, doesn't he? On Thursday.

Yes and no. How much do you trust Victor Lindelof? But he's played as the middle centre-half when he's played recently in the place of Harry Maguire. So then you'd have to play Maguire and Lindelof. So that's then yet another player playing in a slightly unfamiliar position because I suppose Matthias De Ligt could be back by then. Matthias De Ligt can be back. Harry Maguire does have experience playing left-sided centre-back for Hull and for England. So, yes, I was surprised that Luke Shaw played 90 minutes because he hasn't played 90 minutes since January 2024? Yeah.

February 1st. Very close, Carl. February 1st, 2024. 24 hours out. 12 hours out. Maybe it was January when the match started, to be fair. It was a late one against Wolves. I have re-watched the Lyon second leg at Old Trafford. I wasn't here on the podcast to talk about it, but I texted you partway through it going, this has been a really bad Luke Shaw performance. I think it was only expected to play 45 minutes and they're playing close to 75. But you could see the ring rust.

And maybe that played into it. Why he played 90 minutes? Because Amron's going, okay, you need to get some reps in. Well, to be fair, with Luke Shaw that day, he wasn't anticipated to play anything like what he played. I mean, the planned substitution was Viktor Lindelof. I mean, I've never heard this before. So Masraoui has to leave at halftime for personal reasons. Then Lindelof is prepared throughout the halftime period to come on.

for Masraoui and then he finds out at the end of the period that he also needs to leave for personal reasons because his child had been involved in an accident. Thank goodness he's okay. And then...

basically sure with barely any warm-up then has to come in for the second 45 minutes it's no wonder he looked rusty considering he'd not played for so long and he is probably the worst player that you would want to be able to bring in with barely any warm-up they're clearly having to be very careful with him which sort of flies in the eye of him playing 90 minutes yesterday and then being needed for Thursday. Needs must Manchester United are carrying in

It was awkward watching Luke Shaw against Lyon. Even more awkward when Lyon went down to 10 men and were passing through Manchester United's lines. When Lyon scored four goals against Manchester United. United have just got to learn, hopefully, from that game that you're going to be exposed against the better teams in Europe. And Athletic Club are the best team Manchester United will have played so far this season.

Luke Shaw is still rusty. You can understand why. As you've said, it's a long, long time since he started a game. Then again, some of his best performances that I've seen him play have been on the left centre role. I remember a game at Chelsea a couple of years ago. But can you expect someone to get to those levels in such an important game when they've been out for so long? Especially as he's been nursed back in very gently because Manchester United don't want another injury. It's tough. There's lots of tough decisions to make this week.

Yeah, the thing with Shaw as well is people's patience maybe is a little bit thinner than it would have been considering the injury problems he's had over the course of his time at United. I guess going to play for England in the summer,

obviously has annoyed some Manchester United fans as well. Just coming back to some of the other topics then from yesterday, Laurie, I mean, the standout thing, the latest equaliser in Manchester United's Premier League history scored by Rasmus Hoyland, 96 minutes, 95-34, was it? Something like that. Yeah.

And then his social media posts afterwards, he needed that. We all needed that, but we could have done with another one after that as well, maybe. Yeah. I mean, they did try, didn't they? Yeah. Social media posts. We kind of debated this off camera, haven't we? Off camera, off recording. Off air. Where is that the right thing to sort of immediately do in a dressing room after a game? Because I think he does his own posts. But then again, United players were posting after the Lyon game and we were

quite enjoyed that you know Ahmad's post even even Hoyland's post himself you know about semi enjoyed it the semi yeah shall we say I semi enjoyed it yes I mean I can understand where he's coming from he's had a lot of frustrations he's clearly you know going through it isn't he so if he wants to just tell people that he needed that then I suppose that's okay it's just that I kind of think that in the immediate after effects of a draw like that you're sort of thinking okay just sort of talk amongst your teammates rather than get straight onto Instagram but um

Maybe it's a new generation and that's something that we just have to accept. Who invited Roy Keane on? Well, it has been a thing though, hasn't it? I'm pretty sure, I don't think I'm speaking out of turn by saying that Darren Fletch, when he first came into the club, had a few conversations with people about going on their phones in the dressing room straight after games and was trying to guide them away from that. But it's obviously an easier...

thing to say than to kind of actually do but you know if they go and win you know in Bilbao I'm sure we'll all be perfectly fine with them posting and tweeting from the dressing room oh no it's only half time maybe it's just the context you've got to do it in the second leg you definitely can't do it then can you yeah unless it's fine maybe yeah

But, I mean, it was certainly a game. I mean, Amarim, I was watching him on the touchline and he was feeling everything. You know, he was kind of rubbing his brow. He was having his arms out. He was, you know, prowling the technical area. Adelio Candido certainly enjoyed the equaliser. He really did celebrate that. And I think there was a little bit of a moment where Bournemouth bench got, you know, tested with that. And there was some, you know, officials kind of trying to calm the situation down a little bit. It wasn't anything too dramatic, but just it showed that clearly these are people that are...

appreciating the seriousness of the situation in the Premier League, let alone then what it leads into in the Europa League. But there were certainly moments where Amram was having to convey to the players on the pitch which positions he wanted them in. They were a little bit uncertain as to exactly where to go. I thought Ugarte was left centre-back at one point,

Then it was midfield and Garnaccio was maybe a wing-back, but then maybe it was Shaw. So anyway, it was kind of a bit of a freestyle formation at times. And I think Amarin basically said it wasn't really tactical instructions that I was getting across to players. It was that...

I didn't want them to allow space in the middle and potentially a counter-attack that then would have lost us the game. Clearly, that's going to be something that is an important aspect in Europa League matches when it's a knockout competition, when you might get these different configurations of players, Harry Maguire going up front, when you really just need to try anything to get a result. I think maybe having that as muscle memory in their minds to not then be too open to conceder counter is important.

Does it feel like Amarin's getting more animated on the touchline? Because I saw him during the Newcastle game and he looked downright furious and he seems to be throwing his arms around a bit more compared to January time.

I think he's always been this way, right? I mean, I don't know if I mentioned, but I went on a trip to Portugal once and he was certainly... Braga, was it? He was certainly very demonstrative on the touchline then, shall we say. I thought he was different against Bournemouth. So if you felt that in Newcastle, then I think maybe that's a fair comment to make. He's obviously just...

straining to try and get his team scoring goals and that's his way of he feels it doesn't he's quite an emotional manager he said that after the Brighton game where you know he clearly he spoke to the players in a very fierce manner and he said afterwards that he perhaps should have let himself

calm and then go in and so that's why he doesn't really give a debrief in the dressing room afterwards because he's so wound up so we're seeing that in visual form on the touchline I think. He's very emotional and there's been times in games at half-time when he's gone in and Bruno Fernandes or one of the other coaches has led the talk in. He's clearly under a huge amount of pressure and Rasmus Hoyland is as well and when he put that tweet out I didn't mind it. I think you've obviously got to be wary of

of sentiment when they're putting stuff out there, but he's under a massive amount of pressure because he's a goal scorer who doesn't score. So he goes out with that comment. I thought his one after Leon about the semi was pretty funny. I'd much rather have players doing their own social media posts than an agency doing them. Cause I've read some over the years and I'm like, this sounds absolutely nothing like you. And I don't like that, but they've also got to be careful and, and,

aware of the responsibility of their words. He needed that goal. Desperate for that goal. Glad he got that goal. If that lifts his confidence going into that match, and if he feels that he has to put a message out, then I'm all right about it. Yeah, I am too. I think two goals in 29 matches, that is now. It's his first goal post the March international break. And the team needs him to score as well. The team needs him to feel confident.

that sensation you could see in his celebration that he definitely needed it he didn't need a social media post to tell us that and I kind of feel like we should all follow Rasmus Hoyland this week like all of his pictures across the last two seasons in Manchester United colours in Denmark colours anything he's done in his personal life like every single post and give that boy as much of a

pep in his step in the words of Laurie Whitwell that we can give him ahead of Thursday night what do you think mate I totally endorse that and I'm sure you've already gone through a few of his pictures all the way through giving it the old thumbs up a few flame emojis on the comments maybe yeah okay fantastic um uh

I think maybe he just wanted to make sure that people knew he'd scored the goal because the stadium announcer actually announced it as Manuel Ligata's goal. Oh, really? Yeah, maybe he just wanted to nail down that second goal into nine games. Also, it wasn't a celebration, it was just frustration that he'd not been given the proper acknowledgement by the stadium announcer. Yeah.

Someone please appreciate the touch, the deflection, the deliberate act that I made to make this a goal. Not the type of goal he's been scoring though, in a way. Yeah, exactly. Good point. Even the way that the team responded, okay, Bournemouth were down to 10 men, but this is a Bournemouth side who are playing for Europe in the Premier League. It's a Bournemouth team who've caused Manchester United problems. Maybe these stats were inflated, Laurie, by the fact that we're playing against 10 men, but they ended the game with 25 shots, over 60% possession, an XG of 2.5,

Garnaccio again supplying balls from the left-hand side that weren't finished. Mason Mount again missing a great chance. Fernandes put in one wide. I nearly got my Mason Mount moment, didn't I? He keeps getting these chances that are just not quite going in. It was on target, deflected wide. I feel like something's coming there. Yeah, in Bilbao.

Well, let's not get too heady, but you know. Something's coming. Yeah, but I mean, there's a resilience there. There was a spirit there to United again, you know, and a late equaliser after the late equaliser against Lyon, again, just underlines that this team's not giving up, even though these games feel like they don't mean as much. They feel like maybe there's not as much emphasis placed on them as the Europa League games were.

some of them looked knackered at the end to be honest they'd given it their all very knackered I saw Luke Shaw with hands on his knees obviously as we've touched on because that wasn't part of the plan I don't think Garnaccio again Hoyland as well so these guys are obviously trying I think every sinew really I don't think that's actually the question trying every sinew that's a new one

straining every single they're trying every single they're straining every single listen I just vibe I just you know go off piece a little bit with some of these sayings I'm not sure my brain doesn't catch up to my voice anyway not then the what was my point

I often wonder oh that was it it's different to in the Ralph Randik era where at the end of that season you could tell that the players I don't think were trying every sinew shall we say so I think that's a counterpoint there and even as you say I know the stats were inflated by the 10

10 men, but they were creating chances when it was 11 v 11. I mean, that one from Fernandes to Garnaccio could easily have been a goal. Garnaccio had a couple of other shots. So it was, it is kind of like an even contest, I think, really. And it was just, you know, United conceding in that annoying, frustrating way.

that made it then a Bournemouth game for them to lose. Yeah, before we move on, we need to reflect the way that the goal was conceded, don't we really? I mean, Kyle, is it any surprise that there's speculation about Antoine Semenyo in the week and that equals an Antoine Semenyo goal against Manchester United? If you like narratives, if you're a superstitious person, I guess so. I think, again, it's the problem Man United have in that they are

low in confidence, trying out a style of football that's been implemented in mid-season, trying to do what Emery wants, building up from the back. And also, they're weak. In that area, yeah. I can dress it up. You can say weak in that area, or you could say physically weak. There were two or three moments in that game where Bournemouth players are just bullying United players off the ball. And that's why I keep asking Emery about physicality. That's why Emery is then forced to talk about physicality a lot more, because...

Yeah, Luke Shaw should be playing a better pass in that moment. He should have the awareness to realise that pass isn't on. But for some reason he doesn't. Dorgut should be stronger in that moment and recognise the incoming danger. There was a moment, I think it's around the 20-minute mark, where Garnaccio goes scampering after the ball and Kerkers just gets into a squat and goes, no, you're not getting this. You're not getting past me. And then I think 33 minutes afterwards, Bruno Fernandes deep in the bottom of half and Semenya has dropped deep and just gone...

Bosh having that counter-attack and this is this is the concern in that yeah there are times where you can see a little bit of nice one-touch play down the left-hand side with United there are times where you can say oh okay this this might get better if Amarant gets two or three players in the summer but for now there are two three bits where United are doing nice footwork and there's just a just a bigger football player going no punch

Done. Goal. And I think that's what happened with that Bournemouth goal. There's little bits where you're thinking this is nice play, but Hoyland's goal was only the second goal in five matches. I mean, that's a disgraceful statistic. Manchester United have been struggling to score goals. The one conceded yesterday, why invite pressure from one of the best pressing teams in the league? Yeah, exactly.

Bournemouth, who'd already beat Manchester United, were on the way to another win. So it's to United's credit that they did find some intensity, which they struggled to do to get back in the game, albeit against 10 men. I thought Bournemouth were aggressive and the physicality point is an important one. And just that equaliser, it does lift the mood in a week where

where it is needed but I'm watching United yesterday for large parts thinking this is such an ordinary team and to be fair the manager has said look it ain't getting any better this season this is like it or lump it and people are lumping it at the moment but we've got this potential get out clause with the Europa League could have done with lumping it from that little build up from the back really couldn't they

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In the build-up to the match at Bournemouth, there was a Laurie Whitwell exclusive on The Athletic about a change in the scouting department for Manchester United. Director of Scouting Steve Brown will leave the club as part of wide-ranging changes to the recruitment strategy. Laurie, what's the story with this then? I think it's a significant one because Steve Brown has been at the club since 2016 and

was a key figure really in the shaping of United's recruitment and you can obviously question the degree to which that was a success or not but certainly they had to I think evolve the structure after Sir Alex Ferguson departed and Project Bethlehem was christened as the kind of rebirth of United's scouting structure and you know sending this global army of scouts out there

trying to bring data into the process and inventing Trackerman, this kind of bespoke database for hundreds of players. So United will have information on every single player really that is of note in the world. It's just then whether or not that information was acted on decisively, whether targets were aggressively pursued and whether you had that synergy between the manager, the

or the head coach, and then the people that are making the decisions and the negotiators. So Steve Brown was a key figure in that. And he also became more prominent, shall we say, in Ericsson-Harg's reign. You know, he was involved in meetings, you know, when they're discussing who to go for, for example, when Frankie de Jong was clearly not going to come and they're trying to look at alternatives. So that kind of era. So yeah, I think it was maybe the writing was,

on the wall with this because you know he was aligned you know John Murtagh was who brought him in they worked together at Everton and Murtagh left you know last year and you know Jim Ratcliffe's regime have brought new people into that picture so Jason Wilcox as technical director Christopher Vavelle has had his interim director of recruitment job made permanent and I think that then led to um

new offer of a job to Steve Brown that he felt wasn't suitable for his experience in his point of his career so he turned that down so it's his decision to leave and I think it also comes at a time when Ratcliffe has desired for more redundancies and they're going through that process at the moment I think the scouting area will be hit

I think they're having HR meetings coming up in the next week or so where they're going to go through that process but yeah they had about when I first did a piece a couple of years ago it was 140 scouts 90 I think casual 50 sort of permanent and then that's even come down to about 80 more recently but still that is probably a

pretty big number and Ratcliffe, I think, is saying that that's too much. And again, you can debate the merits of that a little bit, but clearly these are changes that I think were in the offing for a while and now they've come to conclusion, really. Yeah, just to spell it out then. So Project Bethlehem, that was a recruitment rebuild in the aftermath of Sir Alex Ferguson's just contact book, basically. And then Tracker Man was designed, which was United's bespoke scouting database to be across all

the data and all the lists of players across the world that United were targeting, which led to the... How many write-backs did he assess before signing Aaron Wan-Bissaka? 804. 804. So it was a pretty well-extensive... And obviously, you know, so this was something that, for example, Ed Woodward, he was the... He led this in a way, you know,

trying to change this and I think he quoted that number to people and you could say... To me? That was my interview. Was that actually in your interview? I thought it was only of a stuff sort of, you know, off the record. So, okay, it was actually in your interview. I mean, but people would say, well, are, you know, 800 right backs really good enough to play for Manchester United? You know,

Well, when the out comes Aaron Wan-Bissaka, I mean, I can understand why 800 might be assessed, I suppose. Yeah, anyway, let's move on. Aaron Wan-Bissaka's long gone. Andy, in terms of the future then, we'll talk about some of the redundancies in a moment because...

It's going to be another difficult week to be around the club. There's been a lot of them in recent weeks off the pitch. But what do you think the future of United's scouting department looks like then? What are these wide-ranging changes that they're trying to bring about? It's another rip it up and start again, almost bringing all your new people in. We're a dis-idealised version of a brighter future. None of us know whether it's going to work or not. There's a reduction in the numbers of personnel there.

reductions in staffing in almost every area right across Manchester United.

And employees are deciding whether to take redundancy now when the terms are relatively attractive compared to what it might be like in the future. Some of them are moving on at their own accord. Some of them are losing their jobs. It's a difficult time at Manchester United. The headcount continues to be reduced. Some really good people are leaving Manchester United.

I wish every single person who's moving on well. The club is losing some very competent people. James Holroyd, who headed up the merchandise, which is incredibly lucrative and profit-making, he's going to be the new chief executive at Burnley in the Premier League.

So this is a calibre of people you are losing. These aren't people who are going, oh no, I've been lucky to work at Man United. Not everyone is a genius. There are some people I've seen lose a job and I've privately thought I wouldn't give you a job. But there are lots of others with decades of service who are moving on. And this is part of the drive to get the staff headcount down to around 700 because Manchester United are losing so much money. But there's a lot of tension at the club. There's a...

There's uncertainty. I'm hoping this will be the last round of redundancies or where people can take redundancies. And I spoke to a lot of staff who did just like, it's just not for me anymore. I want to move on. I want to do something else. And they're entitled to make those choices. That's quite a difference, Andy, though, isn't it? From the last round of redundancies. I mean, speaking to people around the club in many different departments, just the way that things have gone over recent times is,

It feels like there is a lot more people willing to leave now than there was the first time around. Is that fair? It is fair, and there are a couple of reasons for that. There are redundancy terms being offered at the moment that are unlikely to be there in the future. If you look at how INEOS makes staff redundant, it's not normal for them to offer such redundancy.

general terms. So some members of staff are like, okay, I can go now. I can get this amount of money. That gives me a little bit of breathing space to look at what I can do next. I can weigh up my options. There are others who are just like, I'm not happy in this environment. This isn't for me.

I've given it a shot working under the new regime. I don't particularly like it. And there's two sides to that, you know, that, that, that is our option. And, and they decided to move on. And then there were other people who were losing the job, plain and simple. Yeah. And that's obviously difficult because they've not really done anything wrong. The, the, the, the spanner areas that,

When the redundancies were originally announced, it was originally said there's only going to be one round of redundancies. This is now the second round of redundancies. So when that happens, staff are like, well, wait a minute, you didn't say that. So a neutral will be hoping that there will be not another round of redundancies. But the fact is Manchester United were losing between £80 million and £90 million per year. It couldn't carry on.

You're now bringing the staff count right down to not even being the biggest employees in the Premier League. And you could argue that while Manchester United are absolutely bobbins on the pitch, it's still a huge club and you need staff to be able to do that. You're seeing little mistakes because someone who was in charge of that part

has left the club. And that's why there's little bits of tension and mistakes. In the best case scenario, you would hope for a leaner and more productive workforce. But it's been an incredibly difficult time for people at Manchester United. That said, there's been a lot of new arrivals as well. They deserve their chance to shine. They deserve their chance to make a good impression. There was definitely an element of staleness

a lot of people who found themselves in positions that they weren't qualified to be in if I'm honest and

Now you're seeing all of these changes. Some changes were definitely needed. Yeah, you want a motivated workforce as well. United have to try and find a way to get that again right across the club. The timing, I'm sure, Kyle, will be down to some legal issues and technical issues. But again, you know, Laurie says there that there's a week coming up where people are going to be finding out and having meetings with HR. And it really is a stark contrast with the team needing to give their all in their work

Europa League semi-final, doesn't it? I mean, the timing, there's never a good time for people to lose their jobs, clearly, but the timing for the team seems a bit questionable again, but maybe that's beyond their control. Timing for teams seems a bit questionable. I'm the son of an accountant, so my head's going, hang on, who taxed you? What with the April and whatnot, so is that maybe doing that? You're getting a feel for your budget, so what are you going to do now? You know,

shuffling the deck I think Andy's completely bang on in how things feel a bit different in this round of layoffs compared to the other one in that there are people there are a section of people that are going nah this is becoming an environment that's not for me anymore and I'm going to walk albeit with a hand in my back at the same time there are football clubs like Chelsea that

It was expressed to me when Chelsea do layoffs, they rip the Band-Aid off and do it all at once and get it over and done with. But this is Sir Jim's way, Ineos' way of doing things. And unfortunately, this is the new reality. I think you are, if you are particularly eagle-eyed and covering when you're looking at Man United, I think you can even begin to feel the difference in the smaller workforce. There are two or three bits now when I'm looking at Man United's youth team coverage. I'm going, hang on.

There are just fewer people to help bring all this information in. And it's just something we have to get used to, unfortunately. And I think things will stabilise.

Once we get a clearer picture of if any European, if United were playing European competition next season and what happens next after that. That's a really good point, Carl, because if you're playing European competition, your budgets are going to be much higher, even Europa League, which obviously United can't play next season. You've got loads more match days. Each match brings in millions of pounds. Every single department is affected by this because if, for example, you're the analysis department, then you've got,

20% fewer games need analysing. If you work in the shop, you've got 20% fewer games that that needs to be staffed at. This is another reason why it is so important to be playing European football next year, but it's still a stretch because, well, what are we saying? A one in four chance? Let's talk about Europe after this.

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Hey, it's Noah Chestnut from The Athletic. If you're into games and sports, pay attention. I'm going to give you four sports terms. You tell me the common thread. Ready? Axel. Lube.

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Okay, Thursday night, Bilbao, Manchester United in the first leg of their Europa League semi-final against Athletic Club. We've already mentioned it, but quite simply, it's the biggest game of United's season so far. And Andy, you can tee this up for me. You've been in conversation with an insider recently

He knows a little bit about our opponents. Yeah, Josu's an athletic fan. He's a football coach as well. He worked at Barca with the young teams. And I know a couple of athletic season ticket holders and I thought he would be good in part because his English is decent. So I met him on Friday and we had a little chat. Welcome to Talk of the Devils, Josu. How do you feel about your club playing Manchester United in the Europa League?

For us, it's a good opportunity to feel better and demonstrate to Europe that we can fight against one of the monsters of the clubs here in this continent. So for us, it's an opportunity. What is the atmosphere going to be like in San Mames on Thursday for the first leg? At home, it's always, always fantastic. You are going to see against these kind of matches, it's a little bit different.

one step better because the people are always helping the team. Never, never, never saying bad things about the play. How has this season been for you? Fourth in La Liga, progress in Europa League. Yeah, it's a super, super season because our idea was, the first idea was maybe try to repeat the King's Cup

But then with the final in Bilbao, the other idea was this, arrive there. And of course, the fourth place in the league is a way to go to the Champions League. So for us, it's amazing. Who are your most important players? We have some players, good level. We have maybe the best goalkeeper in La Liga, it's Simon. We have two central backs.

with a good level, Vivian and Gerrard. And then in the midfield, we have some players who can play, who can fight. And we have Sanchez, offensive midfielder. Maybe he doesn't play on Thursday because maybe he's injured, but we don't know. And then we have Williams brothers. Williams brothers, they are so dangerous for the opponents because they have power to go, to try to dribble in the opponents, to score. So we have chances to...

to try to win. Your coach, Ernesto Valverde, is very respected. He won the league at Barca. He was somebody Manchester United were interested in taking as manager two or three years ago. Tell me briefly, what is he like?

I think Valverde is a little bit not modern coach but he's super equilibrated. He always has clear ideas with a clear message for the players and for the atmosphere of the fans. When he wins he never loses his idea and when he loses the same.

It's an important thing for us because with the philosophy of Athletic Bilbao, we need these kind of coaches. The philosophy is Basque-only players. Is this something you would ever like to change? No, it's impossible to change that. The mentality of Basque people and Bilbao's fans is always play with the people from Basque country. It's not our club if we change this idea.

What do you think of Manchester United and what kind of reception will the travelling supporters get in Bilbao? There were some problems with Rangers supporters, but last time when United played there, it was an incredible party atmosphere. Yeah, I think it will be a party. Bilbao is a good city to have one or two days to drink, to eat.

to visit we have some museums some things to do and then the atmosphere of the of the of the city is always trying to to receive good to the to the to the visitor so Any problem? Are you confident with a lot of respect from from Man United because You are one of the best teams in the world from for me not now because

The level is a little bit poor if you compare with the best of the Premier League, but for us it's always Man United, one of the best teams in the world. So maximum respect, but confidence, yes, of course. How important was the game in 2012 when you won at Old Trafford and then back in San Marmes? Yeah, yeah.

I was there with Bielsa, 2-3 we won there. It was amazing because you were better than now in this year with Rooney, with this kind of players. And for us it was an amazing match with a good team. For us now it's different because we have now the... Maybe the... We need to win because the final is in Bilbao, so it's a different chance.

Can you teach me some Basque? Yeah. How do I say "glory, glory, Man United"? You can say, for example, "gora, gora, Man United". "Gora, gora" means a little bit "up, up, Man United". Something like that. "Gora, gora, Man United". And when I hear "aupa", what does this mean? It's similar. It's similar word, but "aupa" is a Spanish word with... But we use there in the north of Spain, "aupa". But "gora" is Basque word.

So it's similar. The Basque cuisine is very famous, the pinchos. What is better, fish and chips from the north of England or the pinchos and the freestyle Michelin restaurants of the Basque country? For me, pinchos, but we can try both. Prediction, please, for the game in Bilbao. 2-0 for Bilbao. Am I allowed to call you Bilbao because everybody says... Athletic. It's always athletic. Athletic. Athletic or athletic club. Athletic.

Yeah, it's athletic for us. It's never Bilbao? Never Bilbao, yeah. I thought that. I was just checking. It's athletic, yeah. Eskeri Kasko. It's never athletic. Andy, you weren't calling him by the wrong name there, were you? No, just checking. Okay, yeah. Eskeri Kasko is thank you in Basque. So if you go in, just be really appreciated if you spoke a couple of Basque words on Thursday.

They're confident. I can see why. Fourth in the Liga, they've got a five-point cushion in the Champions League places in that competition. One defeat in the last 10, and that was away at Real Madrid with a pretty heavily rotated team after the games against Rangers in the quarterfinal of the Europa League.

The thing that stood out to me, they've only conceded two goals in the past eight games. And if Manchester United are a team who struggles to score, that doesn't sound like a very good statistic. They're a team with no passengers. They're a very competent team. And if you look at who they've been defeated against this year, it's Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico. They're incredibly consistent. The only time you could say they've slipped up is...

is against Besiktas, managed by Ole Gunnar Solskjaer in his first game. They got beaten 4-1 there. Could we tap him up maybe for some insider info, Andy? I don't know if you've got a number for him. I will get some inside info on that one. The other game they lost was in Olympico against Roma, 2-1 away, but they won 3-1 back home.

in the Basque country. The atmosphere will be off the scale. They've got three or four top, top-class players who could easily move on and play in a top European team. Their manager is exceptionally good. Strong history of Manchester United against Athletic Club. There's a game in the 50s in the European Cup and obviously the game in 2012 where they won home and away against a much stronger Manchester United team. But...

I want some positivity here. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Look, we're going to go into this. We're going to be thinking we're, you know, this is a team who are fourth in Spain. They're not first in Spain. They are an upgrade on Real Sociedad, but they are beatable. And the second leg is at Old Trafford. And in normal circumstances, that would be a good thing. But then I saw Lyon score four times at Old Trafford.

Hey, it doesn't matter if we score five, that's fine. Exactly. Bring it on. I'm buzzing that we're still in this competition. No Scouse in Europe, no City in Europe. Manchester United are still in Europe. I don't want to be anything other than positive either. So looking at their away performances, Laurie, in the Europa League...

0-0 in the last round at Rangers with 10 men. They lost 2-1 against Roma in the last 16, which Andy's mentioned. He also mentioned the defeat to Besiktas as well. It's just at home, isn't it? They've won all six of their games in the competition at the San Mames and United really do need to be leaving that first leg with...

something more than a deficit to build on in the second leg, do you feel? Yeah, I think so. But I know, I re-watched the highlights of them taking on Rangers, you know, okay, maybe it's a condensed... Well, we saw off Rangers easily, didn't we? Didn't take much, did we? And they had to get...

A red card after 12 minutes at Ibrox, a VAR penalty at Ibrox that they missed, a VAR, well, a penalty in the home game as well. So, yeah, if the VAR officials are just on United's side again, as they were on the south coast, then they'll be OK. And I've got more positivity for you. United have scored in every single game in the Europa League this season. That's 12 games, 28 goals, a rate of 2.3 per game. Go on, Laurie, lad.

Athletic club Bilbao have got nothing for it, for that kind of fierce attacking unit. Just to paraphrase the 99 statement, United...

are they going to score? They always score. Clive Tildesley said those words in 1999. I feel like the commentators could say those words again in 2025. I don't know why I've said it like that. My mind is gone. I'm frazzled by this revelation that United are actually an incredible offensive force. I love that. Being called the monsters. The monsters of Europe. Only unbeaten team in Europe. When you look at Athletic, there's the Williams brothers. Obviously, Nico Williams shot to fame last summer.

He's been battling a little bit of a calf injury. He was back for the last game off the bench against Las Palmas, so you'd think he'd be fit. But the good news is that there's a huge doubt over their top scorer, Oiham Sanset. Is that the right way to pronounce it, Andy? Yeah, he's from Pamplona. I'm speaking to one of their other players who's also from Pamplona today, who will probably play Alex Berenguer.

If, if sunset doesn't, doesn't play. Okay. Sansa has been their best player this year, but this hasn't been a good couple of months for him. There's a lot of very tired and a few injured players in that team. So he had a hamstring injury. He came back. He was substitute a few times. He did start against Las Palmas last week. Athletic. We've got a huge gap coming into this game, but he came off after 22 minutes, which is not a good sign for them. If he, if he doesn't play, then Alex Berenguer,

who I'm going to speak to later, who scored the goal to win their first trophy in 40 years last year, he would play. He's also an excellent player. Yeah, 17 goals in all competitions, Sanset. No one in, I think 15 of those are in La Liga. No one scored more than six in La Liga other than him, Kyle. So it would be a miss for them, wouldn't it? Absolutely. He's one of those players that,

I'm sure we'll get linked to a number of Premier League clubs this summer before those clubs realise how much more difficult it is to get a player out of Athletic due to their unique approach to transfer dealings. Also, Enaki Williams is in around there and I've been watching him for years and years and years because he declared for Ghana. Fascinating football player, played, I want to say 251, started 251 games consecutively.

made more remarkable because for a certain amount of time he had a piece of glass in his foot and he just kept tracking and he cited good hard Ghanaian food is helping him play football so look the Yanaki brothers are tremendous individuals and great football players to watch and I wish them a absolutely miserable Thursday yeah absolutely and I hope next Thursday's rubbish as well what about the lineup Carl how do you see United going I mean there's no Diogo Dalot

Sounds like he could well be out for the season, actually. Maybe he could make it back for the Europa League final if United get there, but his injury definitely will keep him out of this first leg, no question. Obviously, Masraoui was taken off early, so you presume that he is in line to start at right wing-back. We don't know whether Matthijs de Ligt might be back. There's a question, like we said, about Luke Shaw's capability of playing midfield now with Mainu in the mix, with Ugarte, Casemiro, Bruno...

Hoyland has to start that's the one thing we do know so how do you think they'll go United? Ugarte and Casemiro will return in a central midfield pairing I believe and then Bruno Fernandes will have this sort of floating role as a number 10 I think Garnaccio will be a number 10 and then it's Mainu and others as your finishers off the bench I think the team is almost beginning to pick itself if only by default

Dallow is a miss. You did see the lack of physicality in wide areas for two or three moments against Bournemouth. But yeah, I'm not too concerned about this line-up. There's not too many things Amir can throw at me now that make me go, what? Excuse me. Which is odd. Yeah, this is doable. It's going to be hard, but it's doable.

Laurie, any chance of Ahmad being back? I don't think so. I mean, I know he's returning to training. We saw him a couple of weeks ago sort of

solo but when I asked around that at that point the suggestion to me was that semifinals would be too soon I mean I guess he's got obviously another week then for the home game he's obviously you know chomping at the bit isn't he to come back and that would be a real big boost I suppose you just don't want to throw him in when he's not quite ready but I suppose it being an ankle injury rather than a muscle injury you feel maybe a bit safer to try him in that sense and

It was interesting, actually, Amarin after the game at Bournemouth for the first time said that not having Chido Obi in his squad was unfortunate for the Europa League, whereas previously I think his approach had been, well, he wasn't on the radar at that stage and it was just circumstance. It didn't seem to have too much impact

significance around it but I think after the game I think he realised okay maybe it would have been quite good to just have him as an option to send on because he sent him on didn't he against Bournemouth and within five minutes he'd kind of got a chance for himself shot on goal awkward angle so they're the kind of chances that he seems to be able to make for himself even though you don't want to rely on him but as an option to alternate from Hoyland then yeah I think clearly Amarino's probably gone yeah I would have quite liked that Andy final word on this it's a European semi-final but

Most teams in English football are not in Europe. It's going to be an amazing atmosphere in a top stadium in a wonderful city, which is difficult to get to. Ticket prices for United fans are less than half they were in 2012. So there's been progress made there by fan groups, by UEFA. Can't say the same for the home fans. Their average ticket price is €180. Wow. The Basques are really friendly. Yeah.

It's going to be a party atmosphere. There's a little bit of tension around the Rangers game. There won't be that there with Manchester United. If you're going, get behind your team. Enjoy it. It's a huge game. And as you've all said, got to survive it and get back to Old Trafford with a fighting chance of reaching the final and a trip to Bilbao. Boomerang to Bilbao. OK, that's it then for Talk of the Devils.

For this episode, Laurie, Andy, Carl, thank you so much. We are going to be back, though, ahead of that first leg with Talk of the Devils Extra. It should be out late on Tuesday or early Wednesday, depending on how quick our producer, Ollie, gets on with this. And it's all about Manchester United's best ever

ever European away games and the best trips that you've made as well. Loads of you have been in touch, so it should be a brilliant episode. Thank you in advance for everyone getting in touch. We're hoping that it's going to bring some good karma for Thursday. The usual podcast will be back after the first leg in Bilbao as well. So we'll speak to you on either of those podcasts. But yeah, thank you for your company. Good luck United on Thursday and we'll speak to you soon. Thanks for listening. Take care. Bye bye.

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