Mainoo a 10 as Utd sail through to UEL last 16
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. And I'm going to say it again. Look at us, sat here, ready to record after Manchester United have won yet another football match. My goodness, we are living in very exciting times, aren't we?

We're going to react to that victory against FCSB in the Europa League, which has sent Manchester United into the knockout stages with no need for that playoff nonsense. We'll talk about a signing edging ever closer, although there could be a little bit of a hold up. We'll have the details on that. And yeah, four wins in five games for Ruben Amarim's Reds. Have they? Am I going to say it, Andy? Turn the corner?

Or are they at that point where they're approaching turning the corner, which we've talked about previously? We'll also discuss that. We've got Laurie Andy and Carlo looking back at me. Andy is still in Romania. How was it, Andy? Good, nice city. Massive United following. Really hard ticket to get hold of. Loads of Reds in the Old Town without tickets yesterday. 50,000 plus crowd. Very atmospheric, friendly. FCSB supporters fantastic.

The tone in my voice is probably lifted because Manchester United have won. Yet again, it's not that long ago that we were talking about a terrible win. I thought the tone was just lifted because you said the correct football team that Manchester United played last night after a week of investigations. Yeah, I have been. I get messages like, Hi Andy, I've got about 300 pages of Romanian sports lore. Do you want to have a read through just so you can get it right? No, I don't. But there is a big piece on the athletic and if you're into that sort of thing...

Have a read of it. I'm going to leave here and go to Stourbuckarest and go and meet the team. Manchester United are actually training there today. So by the time this comes out, that will be... Well, I don't think it's public knowledge. Or should I say the players who didn't play

will be training there and then the team are flying back to Manchester a win a clean sheet a good second half performance substitutes made a change for Cobby Manu was was impressive for for Bruno Fernandes was Diogo Delo was as well

top away end yeah all good this is what you want from a European away trip cheap beers most Man United fans probably went to like museums and saw cultural things but obviously one or two did have alcohol and weren't asked too much for that alcohol and why not why not indeed Carl you often tweet this and it always makes me smile so I've put it into a question for you now Andy Townsend voice better

Yes, yes. That was very much a sensible, but a little bit of a sterile first half. But the halftime changes, bring on Garnaccio, bring on Lomad, really switch things around. Ian, can you hand me a restaurant menu? Because I need to order some humble pie. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, so as we've started doing these Q&As on The Athletic, I did mine last week and someone asked me what I thought about moving Mainu to the number 10 position. Oh no. And I said, not for me Clive. First Ugarte, now this. I know, I know. So hand me a restaurant menu and tell me what sides I can order with this humble pie. Something salty I imagine.

Right, well we'll definitely talk about that because a copy in the 10 was pretty much 10 out of 10 last night apart from blazing a chance over the bar early on. But anyway, Laurie, just let's home in on the initial selection if we can. I mean, that was definitely a rotated 11 by Ruben Amarim. Not quite at the levels that we've seen in his early matches in charge, but actually it kind of worked out perfectly, didn't it? Starting with that team and then making that switch at half-time and there were much improved second half for it.

I think they were able to control possession a lot better than they have done since Amarant's come in, whether that's the opposition or whether that was the kind of players they had on the pitch, because obviously he picked four players that are, I would say, comfortable on the ball. Certainly Collier was, I thought, very good actually in terms of breaking up what FCSB were doing. Who, sorry? Yeah.

Don't make me say it again. FFS. And then you've got Eric Cernbruno and Mainu all comfortable on the ball. I thought United were pretty good that first half. They were... Martinez in that left channel again was being...

an offensive threat picking balls through and they could have scored but I thought yeah the changes really invigorated it Garnaccio in particular just injected that urgency I think down that left hand side and that was why United won the game Ahmad it was nice that it wasn't all on him to make the difference in this situation but yeah I thought it

enable I was surprised that he perhaps didn't go as strong to begin with because I thought they do actually do need to win this game really you know you will want to win this you know not only for the progress into the last eight you know without the extra need for games but also just to kind of maintain that momentum three wins on the bounce for the first time this season you know I was trying to think back to when that last happened even last season but to be fair they finished with three wins at the end of last season yeah I did the same FA Cup final victory went back in the research when did the last do oh right okay yeah yeah

But I thought it was a good accomplished performance. And yeah, Mainu was the standout, right, in that number 10 role.

close control in tight situations. That's what he's really good at. And Amarim wasn't afraid to say that again. He's pretty honest with his appraisals and saying that he's not very good or he struggled running back defensively. So get him higher up the pitch and get him on the ball. Right. Let's get into it then, Carl, on Cobby, if we can. Maybe we should lay out the case for the defence first. Why did you feel he wasn't suited to the number 10? And then we'll maybe look at the reasons why he was so good last night. Okay. So...

My thought, and my thought has been this for quite a number of English players, is that very often, a talented young English midfielder emerges, pretty good with potential of dictating games from deep, and then inevitably, someone comes on and goes, we've got to push them closer towards the goal, because that's the better way to affect games. And I'm always going, no, we need England national team and England players.

across the football clubs needs more midfielders that can actually be comfortable in the middle third and exist there. So when Manu popped up in that game against Everton, I went, oh, he's got it. He can do it. And yes, absolutely. There are questions over his physical capacity and whether or not he's going to be able to cope in the rough and tumble world where you've got midfielders like Morgan Rodgers and Sasha Lukic and Sander Burge in that area. But I would have

liked to have seen a 22 23 year old main who's tightened up his position worked on his progressive passing and stayed in the cauldron and perfected it now what it looks like is that Amaran's gone I'm getting frustrated of watching you having to track back 20 30 yards when the counter-attack and not be able to catch up with the players like Morgan Rogers who are just bigger stronger and faster than you so rather than

Have you exist in that cauldron? I'm just going to push you closer to the goal where your ability to make the ball stick, turn on the pressure and actually get into the final third. You're good at all those things. So why try and make you master something that is quite difficult? So this is what looks to be going on. So again, give me that humble pie. Yeah, it's only one game. It wasn't against maybe the strongest of oppositions as well, but it was certainly a hugely encouraging 90 minutes, shall we say, for Mainu in that position. Andy witnessing it in person,

How much do you think it suits him? I think we should credit also Collier, who has also come through the youth system. I thought he played it very simple. I don't know if he was injured. He went off at half-time, clutching his shoulder. I thought at first he'd been sacrificed because United needed the pace of Ahmad and Garnaccio to break down a team who were very aggressive. I really noticed that in the stadium. They were leaving it on Manchester United players.

but I thought, and they were quite physical, so it's to Cobby's credit that he came through that. I saw some lovely turns and twists, and after the match, spoke to Ruben Amorim, and

It's quite interesting to see what he's picking out. And it's all encouraging. He's saying that, look, the more time we have together, you're seeing combinations between the likes of Deleuze and Garnaccio. We saw Cobby's performance today. Because when Amarin came in, I think I said on this podcast, I felt, and I was pretty well sourced on this, that Cobby had to prove himself to the manager. And they all did, but he especially had to. Well, maybe not him especially, because there are other players. But he's doing that. He's had a good...

a good month. He took the goal really well. It looked quite simple, but actually I don't think it was. And FCSB are not Liverpool, although we don't lose to Liverpool, do we? But it was a really needed confidence boosting win. Cobby was one of the best players. I like him in that position. And another point Amory made was that

As FCSB tired, that really played to Cobby's strength because he had more space, so he could really work between the lines. He was the one player who his coach picked out as being effective as the opponents tired in the second half. And I didn't notice that as I was watching it, to be honest, but the manager, he certainly did, and he said that.

Yeah, the thing with Cobby last night as well, Laurie, is the fact that there was end product. First goal of the season, first goal since the cup final, first assist of the season, first time he scored unassisted in a game for Manchester United's senior team as well. So sometimes we talk about a promising performance, sometimes we talk about some of the elements you maybe didn't notice the first time you watch it. This was really obvious that this season's

seemed to suit him. He spoke after the game. He said he'd play anywhere, but he seemed genuinely happy about how it had gone in the number 10 role. So do you think this is now his position moving forward? Yes, I think that's going to be what Amorin now tries him with more often than not. I don't think it's going to be set. Why so hesitant?

Well, just because you've got Garnacci, you've got Ahmad, you've got Bruno, you've got multiple players that are in that kind of number 10 position. So I imagine that for different games, they'll pick different combinations. And against FCSB, they were always going to have more possession. Thank you. Okay, I had to really concentrate on that.

So it was a game where he was going to get on the ball more. Now, okay, if they're against a team that will come at United more aggressively, then maybe you want someone that's also a little bit defensively minded in that number 10 role. I'm not sort of saying you want to fill your team with defenders because, you know, obviously there's been matches where there's been far too many of them. But, you know, I just think that he'll decide defensively

depending on the opposition really but I mean he could have scored more couldn't he I mean that chance in the first half should have scored well he had two chances in the first half this first one was more difficult than the second one he obviously should have got the second one on target but it was quite a

a bright feeling. And in particular, you know, that celebration where Garnaccio's hoisting Manu onto his shoulders, just with all the stories swirling around. Take that, Ineos. It was beautiful, wasn't it? It was kind of like, you know, quite special and a bit poetic, really. And the goals were such good quality. I mean, the cross that he dug out for Dallo needed that pace on it. It needed that sort of direction to the far post. And that's where Amarant's system really does present itself as an attacking force.

because if you have the wing-backs advancing into the box and you've got extra bodies and there were certain other moments where they had quite a few men in the box, which hasn't been the case for significant portions of Ameren's tenure so far. So I thought, yeah, it was a really encouraging performance. But as you say, one game, let's see, for example, against Crystal Palace, you'd probably expect they would give up possession

to a decent degree but they do carry a sting in the counter-attack so it'll be interesting to see who he goes with there. Yeah, I think one of the interesting wrinkles is if you do persist with Mainu as the 10 you then create another situation as to who's going to play in central midfield next to Ugarte in those bigger games. Collier can run

But he's untested in terms of progressive passing and whatnot. So you might need to get more of a passer ahead of him. Perhaps Bruno Fernandes. You've got Fernandes and Mainu up there. And then you're going, okay, not quite the running in behind threat you want. Against FCSB, you had Bruno deeper and Mainu 10, which is sort of an inversion of how we've normally seen them. Fernandes has had two or three games recently on the Amarillo where he's looking more comfortable.

receiving the ball on the pressure and carrying the ball on the pressure. He's been really good recently, hasn't he, Fernandes? I was really impressed by how well he played at Anfield. Now, I'm not sure if that's a one-off or if he can do that on a weekly basis. So that would be a big question. I also think, bloody hell, Man Utd create some real big questions of a Mason Mounts future at Manchester United. Yeah.

right? So Mount was initially signed in to be the number eight box-to-box player next to the defensive midfielder. Maino emerged and took that spot and then it looked as if Mount was going to get reconfigured into one of these 10 spots and then unfortunately due to injury he's missed that window of opportunity and Maino seems to be taking that as well. I think Mount is a brilliant player. This constant evolution and twisting and turning is

makes me always look at that deal and go, why did United do it? He just needs to get fit, Mason Mount, doesn't he? I mean, worrying about where he's going to play or who he's going to play ahead of or behind or anything. I mean, for him, he just needs to have a spell where he stays fit and see where it takes him. I just feel for him because it feels like

it's becoming even more difficult, isn't it, to get him back to that point. You've touched on a question there, Carl, that Ricky asked us. So Andy, I'll put this to you. He says, with Bruno and Mainu having taken up the eight and the ten roles under Amarim so far, I'm guessing that in time they could be rotating those positions in play with either Ugarte or Collier or both at number six. He said that's exciting, right? Can you see that working?

Yeah, I could. I think Bruno was a very important player last night. It's quite interesting after the game, seeing who stopped and signed autographs. Bruno was the last man to leave, really having time for people, which is not on-the-field performances that we're talking about. But yeah, I could see it working. I think Mainu's come to...

to his best form of the season. In that position, he would have to run more. We've seen some nice round-the-corner balls from him, from Bruno. So I see bits of optimism. The players are definitely getting used to the system more. But how much can they improve this season? Can they win the Europa League?

Could it be really important if we could win this? Can we surge up the table? Because we're optimistic now because three teams have been beaten. The league table's still not lying, is it? You know, we're clicking into February tomorrow. The season's going to be ended soon. There's got to be a major, major improvement soon. And Palace, I do worry about the Palace game, partly because it's at Old Trafford. And Manchester United...

seem a lot worse where the pressure is on the home team to break down a visiting team who are absolutely competent, who will defend in numbers. But if you've got Bruno and you've got Cobby, these are two creators. Cobby's started scoring, well, scored against FCSB, Stour Bucharest, whatever they're called. Ask Laurie. I'd love, Laurie, how much, serious question, Laurie. How much would I need to pay you to read my article on Stour Bucharest?

How many words is it? 2,200. Quit a word? I regret taking it on if I'm totally honest. I just climbed into a glue pot. Honestly, Andy, I'd love to because it's in-depth and it's vital kind of journalism and it's interesting. It's just the time. Honestly, when the window closes and I'm annoyed that it's not tonight. It is. When the window's over. How many times have you said that about DIYing around the house? That is true. That's very true.

There is another article that you could read on The Athletic which is giving optimism to what's happening now at the football club. And that's been written by a man called Karl Anka. You'll know him well. Are Amarim's methods working at Manchester United? It was out before the match on Thursday, to be fair. But, Karl, when you look at some of the details in that piece and you look at the fact that Manchester United are the only team...

in the Champions League and Europa League group phases, or league phases, sorry to murder the stat, that have gone unbeaten. Play date, 1-5, drawn three. Amarin, the first Manchester United manager to win his first four European matches in charge since Sir Alex Ferguson. More positivity, please. Just looking at the league phase table, United finished...

And you're going, hang on. I remember podcasts after Fenerbahce and after Porto and after Twente where we all thought the world was, the sky was falling. But they managed to sail through the choppy waters. The piece I did for Amman was because we've got a lot of questions, both in the podcast and the Q&A section and the comments, that were really, really fixated on Amman playing 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1. Whereas in the long, big...

answers Amarin gives in the second half of press conferences he very often tells everyone to please stop getting fixated on the 343 we defend in loads of different phases and loads of different times based on things so I just wanted to give a breakdown of sometimes United are playing in a 4-4-2 sometimes it's a 5-4-1 and

And there's a lot of fluidity in there. It has been easy for a lot of people to misdiagnose Amarin as this sort of very stubborn 3-4-3 or bust. Everyone has to do it a very particular way. Whereas he admits in press conferences, he makes loads of changes depending on the opponent and depending on which player is there. One thing that I thought was quite interesting yesterday was Masraoui was playing right centre-back. And that just helped with build-up play because he can receive the ball

in tighter angles in different spaces compared to when... That happened for a while, that, actually, either, was it? No, which is odd, because I think Maserati's very good at it. Yeah. If Dorgue eventually arrives and establishes the left-hand side... Sorry to tread on your toes, Laurie, a bit. But if you free up the left-hand side defence a bit more, you can then have someone to go right wing-back, and then you can move Maserati to that right centre-back, and hopefully that should help that horseshoe. So...

Yeah, the piece was basically me just going, Amrin's not as stubborn as he has been depicted as. This is what I'm trying to break things down. There are still huge questions over who's going to play up front. Is Mainu going to be a 10? Who's going to do blah, blah, blah, blah. I think what's also interesting now is if Mainu is a 10, that means United are going to go into another summer window and they're probably going to need two central midfielders. Again. Again. Someone next to Ugarte and probably someone to come in when Ugarte is a bit tiring.

I suppose if you're Casemiro and Eriksen go, that's your two out, two in. Just on that point, I think you're right there, Carl, to mention Masraoui as the right centre-half. It's because it feels like Malasia, I'm really unfortunate for him, but he just isn't up to it. It doesn't feel like, since he's come back from his injury, it's the fourth time he's been replaced at half-time since he started under Amri. He needs to get match sharpness, doesn't he, bless him? It's just difficult, isn't it? When do you get the match sharpness when...

you kind of make him, you know, that foul that he gave away got a booking pretty early on and then from that point you just knew that he was going to get hooked at half-time because it wasn't worth the risk. Could the last days of the window provide him the opportunity to play more regularly? Possibly. I mean, obviously with Dorgud coming in. This was asked to the manager last night, you know, could he benefit from going on loan? He gave a pretty non-committal answer but it's clear to see because of what you're saying, Laurie, he's not playing well. I mean, he's a

some way from the player I saw be one of the best players on the pitch in a win against Manchester City at Old Trafford in his first season. It's pretty sad to see. He was clearly the worst United player in the first half last night. He had tenacity then, didn't he? And, you know, kind of aggressive. There were some moments where he got in on the left-hand side, but that feels to me that's what's kind of

of locked hammering really into this sort of defensive setup because he hasn't been able to trust someone on the you know he's put Dallow there he's put Masraoui he's kind of been rotating those guys rather than kind of really attacking left wing back which we presume which we think you know Carl's on a big tactics truck piece on Patrick Dorgue that's what he's supposed to come in and do and obviously Luke Shaw what timing he's back in training hi guys incredible coincidence yeah

And yeah, but I mean, when we go back to him winning the Europa League and those stats you were saying, Ian, you know, this feels like the best chance, right? It's obviously the best chance. Well, he even talked about it after the game being the best chance, didn't he, of winning something. He sounded very positive about United's chances in the competition. Well, that's it. When you look at the opposition they've had, they should really have gone unbeaten. Like, I know it's easier said than done. You know, they should have won every game 5-0, shouldn't they? Well, they should have, you know, they should have beaten 20. Yeah.

they possibly could have beaten Fenerbahce, which I think he would have. Porto definitely should have won. Yeah, they were winning 2-0 at Porto. So, you know, they could have won all matches, but it does, what point, and this is something that was asked in the Q&A with the subscribers, at what point do you think they kind of prioritise that over the league? I think they're not there yet, clearly, because he wants to get rhythm in, but there will be a point, it feels like to me, that, well,

March time when they re-enter the competition that they kind of go okay this is what we need to focus on. Yeah you've teed me up nicely Manchester United do not need to worry about the Europa League for all of February now the last 16 phase of the competition takes place in March that's when Manchester United will rejoin it and we know United will face one of Real Sociedad Galatasaray

RZ or Michelin Andy just out of interest Michelin obviously you know big Danish side play at the MCH arena any idea of the capacity of their stadium I'll go not played this for a while no we haven't I'll go 14,000

Ooh, 12,148. Not bad, not bad. Decent, decent. I'll give that. Yeah, I'm having that. Pull your socks up, Mr. Mitten. They're not a big Danish club at all. They're a semi-artificial construct who use data very, very well. Are you listening, Michelin? Yeah, they also had the cheek to charge Manchester United £75 for tickets

for the away game there. I don't know how many years ago it was. It was absolutely freezing there. Don't charge fans 75 quid. Go on, ask me about the others. We don't need to. You've already offended a certain region of Denmark, so that's fine. We'll move it on. Watch us get Mitchell in now. Business taxes. We're stressing about all the time and all the money you spent on your taxes. This is my bill?

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Hey, it's Lauren Dragon from Wirecutter, the product recommendation service from the New York Times, and I test headphones. Sweat is actually conductive because of the saline content in it, so we basically make our own fake sweat and spray it over and over on these headphones to see what happens to them over time. It's 85 dB of airplane noise. We're going to put on some noise-canceling headphones and see how well they actually block out the sound. Put them on the ground and kick them over there. Okay. Go. Go.

Are they broken? No. I have 3,136 entries in my database. Kids, workout, running. Does it have a connector that's lightning or USB-C? What version of Bluetooth is it? Does it have FDX HD? At Wirecutter, we do the work so you don't have to. For independent product reviews and recommendations for the real world, come visit us at nytimes.com slash Wirecutter. We even have one that's solar powered.

Right, let's do transfers. Today is the 31st of January, but in a twist to the usual proceedings in the January transfer window, the window will remain open for three more days until Monday, or...

If you're in Italy or the Netherlands, it will remain open until Tuesday. Or if you're in Turkey, it will remain open until a week on Tuesday. So Andy Mitten, the transfer junkies, the window wonderers, worriers, wonders, whatever it was that you said the other day, can live on a little bit longer. Before we get into transfers, Laurie, you did a Q&A on The Athletic the other day. There was a lot of transfer questions, as you'd imagine.

But there was one major question which went unanswered, and I think that's unacceptable. So on behalf of James M., I would like to put this question to you for you to actually answer it this time, please. Would you rather fight 10 chicken-sized Andy Mittens or one Andy Mittens-sized chicken?

I'm really annoyed at myself for not actually answering this in the Q&A because I saw it early on and I just thought that can't be the first question I answer. Did you chicken out? I'll come back to that later. I mean, it's foul play not answering it early. All these are bad puns.

I think it's got to be one large chicken sized, wait, what was it? One large chicken. There's no large. You're just calling it. What is it? It's one Andy Mitten sized chicken. Andy Mitten sized chicken. Right, that. Because imagine 10 Andy Mittens in your life. One's bad enough. Imagine having 10 little chickens chirping at your ankles. I,

I had the worst ever chicken wings in Bucharest yesterday. I like chicken wings a lot. I've got a great respect for them. And I sat with a vegan lad, Martin, so I've already disappointed Martin. These chicken wings, he said, are they actually from a chicken? Do I like as big as like a one pence coin? I don't know if a Romanian chickens are small, but I've said enough nice things about this city. Worst chicken wings I've ever had.

Was the beer better in Bucharest or in Pilsen? I've...

I've actually drank in Bucharest. I was in Germany the other night, had a nice beer there. I watched Dortmund, they had one of them glue wines. You can see it, watching German teams with a big hot wine, which was very nice. I'm professional and I've drunk on this trip covering Manchester United with my expert analysis. You couldn't have a drink to write that article, to be fair. Try explaining that after a few pints. I just...

They try to pull me into both camps. You know, thanks for writing about us. Thanks for speaking to us. Speaking to like the top people at both clubs. And they start off by saying this is really simple and it's not simple at all.

And then you're right, and you're like, yeah, the way you've interpreted that is nicely correct. You know, there was a flag. Andy, whoa, whoa, don't spoil the piece for me. I've got this to come. I'm looking forward to this once the transfer window closes on February 3rd. There was a big flag in the United End last night saying, FCSB are not the real stour. And I thought, that is very, very cheeky. I reckon it might be Romanian Reds with that one, because there's no way people travelling from England care about

enough to do a flag about that. Perhaps he'd read your article. I started getting messages yesterday saying, look at the Athletic, proper journalism, look how they've done it, not falling into stereotypes. So obviously one side is happier with the article than the other side is.

And again, you know, you don't respond to that. It is absolutely fascinating. One thing yesterday at the game, there was a huge TIFO before the match, one end, for Dukadam. And we've spoken about him on this podcast. I love the fact that this man is now getting credit and, you know,

This would have stayed inside Romania had they not played Manchester United. And to save four penalties in the European Cup final is utterly heroic. I had the good fortune, and it was good fortune, of meeting him and sharing whiskies with him, not beer. Good luck with that. The whole stadium was singing for him last night. It was absolutely brilliant. And he was one who sees FCSB as Staudt.

But all of his teammates who won the European Cup with him have a different opinion to that. And I'm going to go and meet some of them now. I think I'm going to go and meet the captain, actually. Okay, yeah, we can look forward to that article then in a few days. Maybe he's got a little bit more time on his hands because he's been hot on the trail of Manchester United's transfer business. And lo and behold...

They're signing a footballer, but there's been a hold-up. Hold-up? Yes. I mean, Patrick Dorgue will be arriving. I think I'm fairly confident in saying that. Fee agreed, broad terms with Lecce. There's quite a few caveats for a first sentence of an answer there, by the way.

Well, it's just because he's not in the country, so I'm always slightly wary. Listen, it's going to happen, isn't it? Yeah, because I thought he was going to... There were some plans that he was going to fly yesterday, so Thursday, that's been delayed. He's not going to fly until absolutely everything's been signed off and it's all agreed, personal terms, payment structure for the deal, that kind of thing. So the broad terms are all sorted. It's going to happen. It's just getting to the final...

you know, what is it? Dotting your I's and crossing your T's. I always get that the wrong way around. But so it does mean that the Palace game, which I thought maybe there's a chance that he could, you know, get registered in time for, that's not going to be likely as it stands. So, well, not be possible as it stands. So yeah, I think he will be coming in. Obviously, you know, 20 years old, like I say, Carl's done a big piece on what we can expect from him. But I think it's a,

Yeah, it's another signing, right, where it's a young player coming into this league having not played before. So you've got to have that kind of patience with it. And it's not certainly a guarantee, but looks like an exciting signing for the kind of role that United need. And...

a smart bit of negotiation potentially as well? Yeah, no, let's say we're asking for, well, demanding 40 million euros, which I think United were always confident they could get them down from. Matt Hargreaves, the director of negotiations, has been leading it. So he's the guy that they send in when they know, you know, which player they want and the kind of parameters they're able to

go with and yeah so I think 30 million euros plus 5 million euros in add-ons and the majority of those are kind of harder to achieve they're sort of based on achievements rather than just appearances so you can probably expect United to pay 32 and whether they pay 35 is up to how well he does and how well the team does and then they'd probably be happy in that scenario Right okay yeah interesting Carl what do you think? You've obviously sent us a voice note a couple of podcasts ago you've written the article as well

Is this an important signing, do you think? Is it...

Is it no coincidence that it's this sort of footballer that Ruben Amarin signed him first? Yeah, yeah. I think I saw the one podcast, the quickest way for United to get better between now and Valentine's Day is to sign a left-sided defender. And here comes Dorgut. Big thing that came through when I was watching his matches was he can run. He's really got physical capacity. I talked to some Danish journalists about his performances for the national team because he made his debut in the Nations League against Switzerland, scored within 40 seconds.

And he gets mobbed by a lot of Danish players. And I went, oh, that's nice. And someone pointed out to me they were really happy about this goal because he scored with his right foot because he doesn't do it too often. And then I went, hang on, handbrake. Let me go rewatch some of these games now to see if he actually passes and crosses with his right foot because I'm not getting burnt like I got burnt by Anthony. Just got rid of one of them. I know. And then, yes, yes, he can pass, cross, dribble, go on the outside quite comfortably on his right foot.

The interesting thing about Dorgiou, and I think the thing that's popped up two or three times, is if you look at his minutes played or the positions he's played this season, he's actually played quite a bit of right wing, which made a lot of people go, well, made a lot of United fans go, hang on, are we actually signing a wing-back here? There's been more than one manager who's tried to give him a similar position

like Gareth Bale had and like Saka had, because he's so... He can be so explosive and because he can be so dangerous, they thought maybe have him cut inside on his left foot, whipping crosses, have shots in there. You're getting a player who is...

probably going to play too many games for Manchester United this season, to be perfectly honest with you, because he is automatically going to be one of the best options on the left-hand side of the defence. There might be a game or two, a bit like last season with Garnaccio, where you go, ah, you're tired and you're making mistakes positionally. But I think you are going to see times where his positioning, he'll be out of position, realise he's out of position and then get a move on and track back 15 yards, make a tackle and you go, ah, that was good. Good application there.

there's a reason why you're signing him from Lecce rather than signing him from

AC Milan, but you are getting a player who can be very, very good in a couple of seasons' time. Okay. Any more for any more then, Laurie? That'll be my next question. Ornish reported United's interest in Bayern's forward Matthias Tell, who sounds like Tottenham are in talks now, according to The Athletic, but only if he was made available for loan was what David Ornstein inserted. Do you think there's any chance of progress on this? Yeah, I don't know. David Ornstein, obviously, all over that one. I mean, just from my position, it looks like

Spurs, if they've agreed a £60m deal with Bayern for him, is it too late to complete a permanent at this stage? Would he rather have a loan with then an option, obligation at the end of the season to survey his options? Maybe that gives United a little bit of a chance but I think the financial picture we've already said, haven't we, that even doing the Dorgu one is pushing the limits but they've been able to sort of

change a few bits about and obviously Anthony going out on loan gives them a bit of wriggle room in the wage that's going out of the club each month. Yeah, because there was no loan fee for that, was there? So it's not like they're getting money to reinvest there. And that was one. I mean, I did a piece on Monday on his exit and kind of how the salary that he's on at United does actually reflect and

from speaking to sources how they kind of knew they were overpaying for Anthony at the time you know a deal that was potentially worth 100 million euros the second most expensive in United history they knew he wasn't really worth that and the salary kind of reflects that because it's more of a modest squad salary okay it's still a lot of money right but it

means that a club like Betis were able to afford him pay 84% of his salary rather than him being on 200 odd grand a week and just totally blowing out any chance of getting a departure in this window so that was yeah perhaps go and read that if you haven't yet but that kind of allowed them a bit of space but yeah I'd be

It's all going to come down, isn't it, to Marcus Rashford, what's going to happen in the final few days of that window. If he goes out, surely Amrin will want a replacement. I know that he's been using his squad without Rashford at the moment, but it feels like he would want somebody in for that and maybe then Attell comes into play. Andy, we still got you?

Yeah, I've just, I mean, I read Laurie's article and just, they just blew me away. It was absolutely brilliant. I'm just thinking how happy it made me and all that detail. It was just, just a fantastic feeling. Carry on with the podcast, lads. Amazing. He's got the time to put it together, isn't it? Um, but anyway, I guess it's sort of transfer related. So there is time in the remainder of this window. You teased it, Laurie, let's do the latest micro analysis of words that Amarin said about Marcus Rashford quickly, if we can. Um,

What do you think? Yeah, more conciliatory and yeah, I mean, the Q&A again was sort of dominated by Rashford questions, but a lot of it was why are journalists asking so much about Rashford? Is that ironic that your Q&A was a lot of questions about Marcus Rashford, moaning about there being a lot of questions about Marcus Rashford? You can't really win as a journalist. Yeah, sometimes it's a brilliant job, but...

part of the critique is finding that balance between asking the right questions and then also reporting certain aspects you know even such stories that we've done where people have been saying you know you're leaking too much here but also we do want to know what's going on so it's this kind of dance really that you have a little bit and Rashford yeah I accept that certainly there's more conversations to be had around the club not just focusing on him but he is a big story he's out the side it's a kind of bit

Bit of intrigue around why he's out the side exactly. He's on a lot of money. So you've got this kind of conflict with the financial picture at United and then this guy that's not in the team. But Amarino, I think, after his quite explosive, shall we say, comments after the Fulham game was more reflective here and emphasising that he meant any player if they weren't

playing their maximum. He'd put them on the bench or put George Vidal on the bench ahead of them if they weren't giving the maximum. Vidal, by the way, I saw him training the goalkeepers in open training this week and he does look 63, a bit of a limp there. But yeah, in terms of Rashford, I think he was trying to say

listen we would love to have him back in the team firing on all cylinders he makes us better that's the kind of player that we need so I think there's a certainly a perhaps a reframing of his position in the final few days of this window. After the press conference last night one of the journalists said to Ruben Amarim you see we can do one without asking you about Marcus Rashford and he's like well done guys well done you know it is possible I congratulate you but you

You make a good point, Laurie. Sometimes fans, why don't you ask? I remember getting hammered. Why don't you ask about Donny van der Beek? I have done, mate. I knew you were going to say that. I have done, mate. 16 different times. We'll ask him again. The irony was one of the questions in my Q&A was saying you wouldn't get these kind of articles about Donny van der Beek and you wouldn't get this kind of question about Donny van der Beek.

and I was thinking we did. And also, he achieved nothing like what Rashford achieved at United. So it's obviously going to be more questions about Rashford. Rashford's pretty much the most high-profile footballer at United. He's one of the best paid, if that's your metric. But he's one of the best players. You know, you look at the form that he's had over recent times, I know it's been up and down, but on his day, he is one of the best Manchester United footballers, if not the best, and he's not been in the team for...

what, 10, 11 games now. So it's definitely a story and it's a story that will carry on. It's a big story and the manager feeds that story because his quotes are so strong. And, you know, Marcus Rashford is potentially a world-class player. You know, we've seen glimpses of it, obviously not for a while. Talking about old goalkeeping coaches, I bumped into Raymond van der Haal this week. Oh. 61. If you ever want to feel ugly, just stand next to 61-year-old Raymond van der Haal. He's 61. He looks fantastic. He looks fantastic. Wow.

And I had a drink with Raymond and his wife. She told me the story about how the people, including Cath Phipps, had once confided in us, said, you know, do you know what all the girls at the club call your husband? It's Raymond van der Gorgeous. And she's like, OK, let's take this. I mean, it's factually correct, isn't it? But lovely guy, he's a goalkeeping coach at Shakhtar Donetsk.

and so he's spending a lot of time in Ukraine and we just reminisced about his time at Manchester United and yeah yeah when he when he when he arrived he wasn't even sure which Manchester club he was joining and he was saying to his wife is it the big one or is it the small one and then they came came through the doors at Manchester airport and this Scottish man called Sir Alex Ferguson was waiting for them I mean imagine that now that's mad yeah wow

That is crazy, isn't it? Did he have his name up on a little card, take him to his Mercedes so he can sit in the back? You'd like to think so, but I'd like to think that his name was too long so it wouldn't fit on one of them boards. Just Ray. Ray. Brilliant, right. Well, we started that bit talking about transfers. If you want to know any more, of course, keep your eyes peeled on The Athletic for the updates ahead of Monday's deadline, 11pm UK time.

But it's not over then, Laurie, is it? There's still more like a tease before. So even if Marcus Rashford or others haven't left by 11 o'clock on Monday night, there's still a week and a day to go to Turkey. So it goes on ever longer.

Okay, let's preview Manchester United playing football again. That'll be good, won't it? Manchester United against Crystal Palace Sunday at Old Trafford. If only the recent record, Carl, wasn't so patchy against Palace. One win in six Premier League games against them. They've won three of the last five at Old Trafford as well. Yeah, it's up and down and up and down. And even then you have the draw where Casemiro was sent off due to VAR intervention as well. So, yeah, they're becoming a bit of a...

Well, one more annoying result and then you might be crossing over into bogey team territory. Yeah. I reckon. It's since they scored those two goals. Do you remember those two late goals? Or was it one late goal? It was the latest goal that United had ever conceded. At least they three-kicked, wasn't it, or something? Yeah. Yeah, look. Crystal Palace are an Andy Mitten decent team. And they can play well. Glasden's got them...

doing a very very fine tune uh they shop very very well in the championship as well i think wharton has the potential to be a good football player and mateta ever since he tucked in his shirt has ended up being one of the better strikers in the premier league so you take this team lightly you're going to get punched in the face they can play physical football will hughes is fond of picking up a yellow card if you try and run past him with the football being strangled yeah

indeed yeah so I think this this will be a similar test to the not to the same level Southampton but this is a team that can defend in a very stubborn manner they've got a striker who can be very physical and

You've got to pay attention to your set-pieces because FCSB also came close to scoring via set-pieces as well. So be serious. Ugarte was rested on Thursday, so I expect him to start. I expect Ahmad to start. I think Maguire will probably play, depending on his fitness, just to buff up United at set-pieces.

I have no idea who's going to start up front because that now appears to be a coin toss. Yeah, that's a big question in a way, really, isn't it? I mean, in terms of Palace, Waterton, who you mentioned, hasn't played since October. They've had injury issues. They've found it difficult to find the rhythm this season. They obviously finished last year brilliant, including that 4-0 win at Sellers Park over United. But they're in their best running form of the campaign. Four wins in five before defeat to Brentford last weekend in the Premier League.

Who do you think will start up front for United, Andy? Because again, for Hoyland against FCSB, it wasn't perfect. And obviously there's the option of Xerxe, who played the last five minutes in that game. It looks like he's probably favoured to start, maybe. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if I ever did start.

With United leading 2-0 in Bucharest, you saw a lot of protected minutes. You saw players being brought off with the game, the big game between 12th and 13th in mind at the weekend. Did it feel like he kept Hoyland on to try and get that goal? Yeah, because he has been scoring in the Europa League and Hoyland was another like Bruno who was very patient, stopping and signing autographs after the game last night.

I didn't ask him for one because that would be very unprofessional of me. But the gentleman next to me did. And he said, you know, how are you doing, Rasmus? And he said, I'm fine, thank you. How are you? And he seemed pretty relaxed. Now, if he just relaxes a bit more in front of goal, then he might do what he's paid to do. This is the battle of the two teams on minus four goal difference. This is how it's going to be billed as a worldwide battle.

bonanza pretty shocked actually carl how bad united are that that stat there against um crystal palace so they do win the seal of being called decent bogey have they got to bogey status as carl was mentioning they might be approaching and his head is in his hands at this point

He's took a deep breath. You know that game in May 22 where Ten Hag turned up at Sellhurst? I think it was the last game of Rangnick. That is up there as one of the worst games ever. Although I'm told Leeds-Burnley on the telly the other night was literally the worst game of football ever. Oh, it was dreadful. They only conceded about five goals all season, haven't they, Burnley?

Leeds put out, I think it was Leeds or it might have been Burnley, one of the teams put out like a highlights reel of the game and it involved the kick-off, a goal kick and then the manager shaking hands at the end. It's very good. Own it, yeah. I don't know. I really think it's 50-50 if Xerxe or Hoyland starts and neither of them is convinced enough to become the automatic starter. And I think you find a trend where, certainly in the case of Xerxe, when he comes on he actually looks pretty impressive and then he starts in the next game and looks...

less impressive so sorry for not being able to give you a more comprehensive answer maybe no i don't think the manager knows the answer either because he's rotating between i mean tywin's got a question carl do you think there's any chance that garnacho has ever tried out in the number nine role given the struggles i don't think so if only because garnacho is not six foot tall he ain't holding anything up is he to be fair yeah it's one thing that makes garnacho's

forecast or wherever you want to play him a bit difficult is that he's not got the biggest frame and he's not necessarily a player who can put on a lot of muscle to without losing a bit of speed there strikers now are just getting bigger and bigger you're not seeing too many of the Aguero type shorter gentlemen with the chunky thighs like we used to a lot of these number nines are six foot and 11 to 12 stone and

So I'm not sure if Garnetcher works as a number nine. I do think though, if Amarin figures out what his best number 10 duo is, that might actually end up having a flip effect onto the striker. So rather than figure out which striker is in good form, he might just go, eh, whatever. These two number 10s are playing well. They're good at X. So therefore the most complimentary striker is Y to get most out of the 10s, which is a...

Not what I expected at the start of the season, but here we are. I was in the friendship files last night. I was looking at the game thinking, well, I remember that picture. That was Garnaccio, Mainu, Hoyland. They're good mates. Ahmad's also mates with them. So if you've got Garnaccio...

and Mainu as the 10s, Ahmad as the right wing-back and Hoyland up front. Maybe their friendship could... That's a good pod for it. ...some sort of moment for United and blend, but I'm not sure it quite works like that. We're all friends, and I'm not sure we'd be great as a front four for United either. Speaking of sort of weird left-field things, like the suggestion of us playing up front for United, Harry Mara, Laurie, in as a consultant...

for a short period. He's a running coach, basically. Liam Tharm's written an article about why it might be a good idea on The Athletic. What do you make of this? Yeah, interesting one. When I heard about it on Monday or Tuesday, I was kind of intrigued because I thought, OK, I mean, United's

sort of running capacity has been something that I think we've kind of thought, is there more room there? And I suppose when you think about it, do footballers get taught how to run? They kind of get taught how to play football, right? Which is obviously the main thing. But to actually then cover the ground as Amarim wants, to run like mad dogs, is there something there that can be taught sort of mechanically to improve them? Yeah, I'm told that it's a kind of light touch approach. He's working with the staff. Who is he? He is a 78-year-old.

So when I first heard it, I thought maybe he's got a place on the subs bench next to George Vital. But he coached Ashton Eaton to back-to-back Olympic gold in the decathlon. He's also coached Olympians in heptathlete as well. So he's a very well-renowned coach. So 2016, he was named the World Athletics Coach of the Year. Track and field is his speciality.

But yeah, I actually bumped into him at Carrington on Wednesday. He was walking past in his United tracksuit and he's been in the director's box actually. He was in front of Fergie for the Rangers game. So he is around the place. We're told that it's going to last a few weeks and this kind of thing happens before where they've brought in expertise from outside.

to consult and offer guidance. Amarin was asked about it before the game by Critch and he said, yeah, it's a club decision basically, but he's on board with it and it'd be interesting to know how much interaction he's had with different members of staff and even the players and whether that then does

produce some kind of results it's yeah it's an intriguing one right it kind of does feel a bit bit wacky maybe marginal gains marginal gains it does feel very marginal gainsy doesn't it we haven't talked about marginal gains for quite some time have we to be fair it's been a while here we go it's back it's absolutely a skill that can be worked on and refined when I was covering Southampton in 2019 I noticed Danny Ings had changed his sprinting style

particularly when it was pressing goalkeepers who were trying to play it short. So he was breathing in a certain rhythm. He was using his arms when he was sprinting in a very particular motion. And that helped him close down defenders if he was running in a straight line. But if the defender sent him for a dummy, he couldn't change direction from 12 to 2 particularly quickly. So it was a thing of, here's how you get better pressing in a straight line, but also...

be aware this will affect you in other movements as well. I'm not sure how, if enough, if a couple of weeks is enough to get super noticeable improvement unless you're watching United every single week, but it's absolutely a thing that players work on.

I think he's been around it for a few weeks already. So yeah, let's see how long he is. And he looked, you know, he said hello very, very nicely. He's got a lovely tan. He looks very good for 78. I was thinking if you spend too much time in Manchester, that tan is definitely going to fade. So maybe he's the one asking for it. Amarin's tan's gone, isn't it? Amarin and Agate, both their tans have gone. Amarin's changed his trousers. Good. No more, no more brown chinos. Yeah. He's lost to listen to podcasts. Hi, Ruben.

Amazing what Paul Smith can do for you, isn't it? Let's finish on a lovely email that we've received. This is from Grant in Washington. He said,

that's Grant in Washington Grant I hope you have a fantastic trip to Old Trafford Andy a tip for Grant or anyone else indeed who's coming over for for their first game or only game as he termed it just soak it all in walk the streets of the city walk around Old Trafford visit visit the museum the thing that makes Manchester is the people and in a similar vein I met Romanian and Bulgarian Reds last night and they've all got the most incredible stories it's

pretty depressing that most of them relate back to I started supporting United because of either Cantona or Beckham you know I didn't really meet anyone saying it was Matteo Darmian who caught me and the love of the club has started since that point or some of the other players sorry Matteo in the last 10 years just enjoy it you know it's Manchester is a good city and it's changed a lot and yeah just soak it all up.

Let us know how you get on, Grant. Devilspod at theathletic.com and of course anyone else who's got a question or a point to make, get in touch. We always love to hear from you. But that's it for this episode. Thank you, Laurie. Thank you, Carl. Thank you, Andy. We'll be back after Crystal Palace, whatever happens. And I don't sound quite as glum saying that as I did just a couple of weeks ago. So don't surprise me or disappoint me or anything like that. But thank you for listening. Thanks for your company as always. And we'll see you on the next one. Take care. Bye-bye.

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