Much improved United earn point at Anfield
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network. Fernandes. Again from Garnaccio. Garnaccio's cross. Ah! Well, that shakes it up again! Manchester United! This is Talk of the Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. Andreas, you asked for a commentary intro on the last podcast and you got it. It wasn't a victory at Anfield.

But it was certainly a turn up for the books with Manchester United showing some real pride and fight in that two-all draw. Showing the type of things that have been missing from their performances in recent weeks. We're going to pour over every single detail of that game and that performance. What a game it was in the second half to be fair. We've got Andy Mitten here, we've got Karl Anka here. Laurie, like me, is also here battling our way through leftover snow, sludging Scousers to get back home.

to record this podcast Laurie far more like it that wasn't it I thought that was a much more encouraging performance from Manchester United and I

I thought it was an absolutely thrilling game, a brilliant occasion to be there in person at because we've been there when it's been 4-0 defeat, 7-0 defeat, 0-0 when nothing happens and United are just thankful to get out of there. So United hadn't scored since 2018 at Anfield, so to get two goals feels very fortunate. Could have been three as well, that chance at the end for Harry Maguire. But I just thought there was so much about the performance to draw encouragement from, really good individual displays.

And I suppose Ruben Amarin and Bruno Fernandes afterwards were quite right to sort of be angry at the fact that they don't do this every week. But hopefully that has just reset the sort of downward spiral that United felt like they were on and it gives them a platform to build on. Yeah, it was that good Carl that... Oh, there we go. Oh, here he is. There's a cold beer in my basement. Cheers, mate. Congratulations. You've had a few watching the game this afternoon, though, haven't you?

I did have a few. I had the rare treat where I got to go to the pub to watch a Manchester United football game. I went to the old Nags Head. I know we get quite a few emails in.

From our listeners in North America in particular, you want to know where's a good place to go watch my United games is come to visit Manchester. And I recommend the old Nags Head along with Tip Street Tavern in Manchester town. And that was good. That was the sort of performance United have often been capable of when the backs are against the wall, they're up against a historical or geographical rival and they just find another level.

That was a first half where you are really appreciating the qualities of Mainu and Ugarte. That is also a first half where you're looking at players like Dalot and Hoyland going, oh, if you were a bit more confident, these passes would zip just a little bit quicker. That was a performance, a 2-2 draw where you're going, Manchester United absolutely do not deserve to be 14th.

However, there are enough problems in there where I cannot in all good consciousness say this Manchester United team is going to finish in the top four, top five at the end of the season. Don't bring it down just yet because Manchester United were 14th at the start of play and Liverpool had more than double the points of Manchester United in half a season having played a game less. But Andy, not in that 90 minutes they weren't.

Those two looked each other in the eye. England's two biggest clubs by an absolute mile, toe-to-toe with each other. I didn't see it from Manchester United when I woke up this morning, but as kick-off came closer, I started to think, actually, these players, they're not bad. And when I saw the line-up, I was more encouraged because...

The midfield caused the most concern against Newcastle the other night. And I think Ugarte's been good and Maino's been decent as well. And I really enjoyed watching it. Absolutely buzzing when Manchester United...

went ahead. Then I went through that. Oh, you can't lose it. Just can't lose this. And I'm thinking, when was the last time Manchester United lost five? And the journalist in me is going, right, must be back to the 1930s again. Top, top game. And I just had a message off a friend of mine in Liverpool, Peter Hooten, saying,

And he just said Manchester United were like a team possessed. Peter's in the farm. He wrote that song altogether now when he was 21. I've known him for a long, long time. I've got a huge amount of respect for him as a Liverpool Liam. And that was a bit of a compliment because, you know,

A lot of Liverpool fans were very, very confident. Oh, there was some confidence around. Yeah. My goodness. You mentioned the old Nags head there because we should have like a side column. Maybe once every 30 podcasts, great Mancunians. And Sean's a landlord there. And he's such a good figure for the city of Manchester. Really enthusiastic. Yeah.

I went in there two or three days ago with my family. There's hundreds, possibly thousands of pictures all around the walls showing Mancunian history, Manchester United history. And there is no shortage of whinging Mancunians. And Sean is the opposite of that. He brings people together. He really cares about his trade. It's a really difficult trade as well. So,

good on you and I know there are other good pubs as well and I know I'm going to start getting messages from people like the Crown in Middleton which just springs to mind going well what about us but yeah I'm sure it was good in there today Carl Oh it was very good we'll do a whole podcast about good pubs to watch United games eventually when things are

less hectic at Manchester United. Or it gets even worse and then we just need to drown our sorrows maybe, one way or the other. Yeah, let's get into some of the detail of it then. Carl, who knew that Lisandro Martinez could produce finishes like Ryan Giggs in the 1999 FA Cup semi-final replay against Arsenal? That finish was ridiculous. Yeah,

Laurie sort of alluded to it, the first goal since 2018. It was Manchester United's first goal at Anfield in nine hours and 18 minutes of football and it was worth waiting for, wasn't it? I mean, hats off to Laurie for fishing out that stat. I'll admit, watching it on television, my initial reaction was, did that take a deflection? Mm-hmm.

Because in real time, I did not expect Lissandro Martinez to hit a ball that hard, that accurately towards goal. In the roof of the net, above Alisson. In the roof of the net. Laurie, in real time, he's proper hit that, hasn't he? Yeah, I mean, I think I thought it was a true hit. I didn't think it had any deflection on it. It was the kind of finish that you were anticipating or hoping rather that he would make because it was a second or two that he had left

to sort of steal himself. And you're thinking, go on, just absolutely smash this. And I guess you're thinking, Ian, right, of the FA Cup semi-final goal that Ryan Giggs bent David Seaman back with, or even the one at Main Road, maybe? That one from a distance where Keith Curl's telling him, go on, have a shot there. Go on, have a shot. Oh, you put it in the top corner. Oh. But it was a really good move. You know, before that, it was, you know, you got the centre-back there in open play, in the box, and Bruno Fernandes' lovely deft,

to find him. I suppose the one thing I would say is that United celebrated like it was their first goal at Anfield since 2018 because it went on for quite a while. The fans were absolutely going potty and fair play. You've got to savour these moments but I do wonder if it went on maybe a little bit too long where, I don't know, they

Because Liverpool equalised pretty quickly and there was Ruben Amarin talking to Bruno Fernandes at one point and the rest of the players sort of saying, stay focused, stay focused. Because it was obviously, there was such a high for them. And obviously with the context of everything that they've been going through, no goals, defeats,

everyone hammering them, telling them they're wasters. And I think that was just a moment to kind of, for them to really celebrate. But I do wonder if it, I don't know, if maybe they allowed themselves to enjoy it just a little bit too much and then maybe weren't quite as at it when the game kicks off again. Yeah, Laurie, let's talk a bit more about those celebrations. Like you said, you were there. So,

Just describe what happened. It was difficult for me to see from pitch level exactly what was going on, but Ahmad got booked for some of the celebrations. It looked like some of the players were almost having altercations with some of the stewards, pulling them away from the fans. It was pretty wild, the celebrations for going ahead at Anfield, to be fair.

Yeah, going ahead in the 55th minute or whatever it was, it wasn't like a last-minute John O'Shea-style goal, which I've already referenced today in some of my tweets in terms of Harry Maguire being that centre-back to go and win it at Anfield in stoppage time. But in that first goal, yeah, it was pretty chaotic. I mean, the away end looked fantastic. And to that point, they'd been really loud. And I thought it built into a really good atmosphere, actually, because obviously Liverpool, desperate to win the game,

they've got the title on the line. It felt like there was some pressure on them, certainly when they went behind. So I thought it made for a really fantastic occasion. But yeah, players just...

I don't know, they must have felt so much, they must be reading everything, they must be feeling so much pressure to perform. People are talking about relegation, not us obviously, but other people are. And so I think that there was obviously a huge release for them at that moment and they just really, I don't know, went crazy. I don't know exactly what Ahmad got booked for, but Martinez certainly was right in the mix there. And you had...

you know even Onana, Andre Onana went up from his old goal line sort of didn't quite get in the melee but he went into Liverpool's half and sort of thought should I come in here and it's like that would have been too much you know goalkeeper coming up all the way at that point but yeah absolute bedlam and I'm glad that it didn't then end in a defeat where it looks foolish like I think we can look back at that and think yeah that's fair enough to sort of celebrate you know

in a big way. But I think it did need Ahmad to go and get the equaliser and show some resilience, show some fight back when they went behind. I thought that was actually more encouraging than

as a performance overall, the fact that they then lost the lead and Liverpool were stirring and Anfield was rocking to then actually hit back and show that resolution, show that quality actually to get that equaliser. Yeah, I interviewed Virgil van Dijk after the game, Andy, that was one of the things I said to him, you know, after getting back in front from going behind is the most disappointing aspect from their perspective, the fact that United were then able to get them back and from a United perspective, it's

it's exactly the type of issue that United have faced where it feels like it's going wrong and the team struggle to find that control and find that response, especially at a place like that. So to be able to do that against this Liverpool team is hugely encouraging, isn't it? It was a top performance. The five or six players out there were eight out of tens. Bruno, Ugarte, I thought Harry Maguire had a good game. Yeah.

Majrawe and Madad moments as well um

And out shone several of Liverpool players, most notably Trent Alexander-Arnold. I thought Diogo de Lot, who's another player who did very well, had a really good game getting beyond him. And Martinez, who's another one. And these are lads who've not had top seasons so far. So as a collective. But it was like that right from the start, wasn't it? And we've not always seen that at Anfield. The 4-0 in 22, we were down after three or four minutes.

And my confidence grows. If you get to like 10, 15 minutes, you think we've got a chance here because, you know, individually, the players are decent players, right?

And I think it really rocked Liverpool and maybe they were a bit overconfident. Some of the challenges going in from Manchester United, late on from Lenny Oro who'd come off. What a tackle. Exactly. What a tackle. And there were a few of them. Maguire's that he got booked for was a brilliant challenge on Salah to be fair. Oh, such a good tackle.

such a good tackle. I'm telling you, Maguire's going to have a very fruitful 2025. I just wish he'd put it in. I know. It'd have been such a narrative change of that for the club and for him. It would have been. I think if you look at the fact that Manchester United are going to be playing three at the back...

for however long Thomas Tuchel is now the England manager I think Maguire as the middle centre back for club and country will probably have a very fruitful year I'm not saying England will win the World Cup or not but this will probably be the year where everyone looks at Maguire and gives him a proper fair assessment I think

Euro's tackle you can see why there's been two or three times where Amarin's been asked about Euro and Amarin's made it very very clear that he doesn't want Euro to get injured again he doesn't want to risk him whatsoever because he thinks that Euro has a thing that not too many United defenders have and you saw that again today recovery pace yeah

And also time with the tackle. There have been two or three times this season where you have seen United desperately miss Rafa Overan's presence. And I think Euro getting close to match fitness and match sharpness will go some way to compensate for that. And also, like you say, that first...

Michael Oliver, I know people are going to listen to this and want to make some complaints about Michael Oliver later on, but I'll say the first 20 minutes of that game, Michael Oliver kept his cards in his pocket. And I think that suited Manchester United in that there were a couple of tackles, particularly from Ugarte and others, that were very much classic derby rivalry tackles of these lot haven't had someone boot them in a while, let's actually try and boot them.

So let's get amongst them. Which was really refreshing after just how limp and lacklustre United were against Newcastle. I think Maguire's come out of this trough of despair because he's had sustained stick for a couple of years now. But he's been one of the better performers. I think he did it right. He just...

put his head down he grafted he knew what he was good at I think this system actually suits him I was pleased the other day when we saw news that his contract had been extended I

I don't even take stuff like that for granted anymore, given the financial pressures at Manchester United. There has been talk, including on this podcast, about a lack of leaders. I do think he has got decent leadership skills as well. So I am pleased for him. The manager called him out on that in the press conference, to be fair, that he needed to show more leadership and

And that was a response, I think. Starving for leadership. Yeah, to be honest. To be honest, though. It was one of those things where it's a compliment for Maguire, but also quite damning of the squad. Yeah, and he thought about that, Amarin, didn't he? That was a very careful sort of wording, I think, of that particular issue for United. But I wonder, Andy, you know,

I was critical on the podcast, but away from it as well, about the whole relegation thing after the result against Newcastle and just sort of feeding the hysteria about that by talking about it and acknowledging it. But you wonder whether the messaging has worked, questioning the leadership,

Saying that the team is in a relegation fight or could get sucked into a relegation fight, was that in part response to some of the messaging that Amarant brought out in the last couple of weeks? I think they've got their own professional pride. They've been hurting. The confidence has been low. We spoke about the manager, the coach, sorry, having time on the training pitch. The manager dismissed that actually after the game. He said it was more about the way that they approached the game, their attitude, the front-facing mentality, um,

professional pride again. We just need to see it on a more consistent basis now because 13th and 14th is not where Manchester United should be. And, and,

He didn't talk about the system, did he? I think he feels that there's been an obsession talking about the system in the last couple of days. And there has been. I spoke to somebody yesterday who said, what sense does it make in bringing a new manager in in the middle of the season, getting him to change the system? Why not wait until the end of the season? And you're sort of nodding along, not in full agreement, but you can see that there's a logic there. So when you have performances like that, it pushes back against the narrative.

And Amarim needs any pushback possible because no matter how good he is at communicating, if you're losing every week, it becomes very difficult to get your message across. So I'm pleased that after that 2-2, he's got a full week with his players now ahead of a very difficult game at Arsenal. And you start to see the positives a little bit. Until United went behind at Arsenal a month ago, they weren't actually playing that badly. So you think bigger way following, you're telling me there's a chance and...

The mood has been so low in recent weeks that when I saw the Arsenal draw for, oh no, we needed the FA Cup and I'm a bit more confident now. Make your next move with American Express Business Platinum. You'll get five times membership rewards points on flights and prepaid hotels booked on amextravel.com. Plus, enjoy access to the American Express Global Lounge Collection. And with the welcome offer of 150,000 points, your business can soar to all new heights.

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Yeah, I think there is reason for more optimism. I spoke to Matthijs de Ligt before the game this weekend and he talked about the performance at Arsenal, defensively at least, being fairly solid. Obviously, it was two goals on that occasion in the league from set pieces that won the game for Arsenal. The result at Manchester City, giving belief, going to Anfield. And, Laurie, that will add to it this afternoon, what they managed to produce looking ahead to the Arsenal game. We'll preview that.

of course, on Thursday's podcast. But just homing in on another couple of details from this afternoon. Garnaccio looked better off the bench, didn't he? Yeah, I mean, the fact that he came on and made a difference, that's what Amorim wants him to do. Can he fit into this system? I know you're sort of right to maybe...

Why there's so much focus on the system. But it's because it doesn't allow for perhaps a player like Alejandro Garnaccio to get as much football as he would do in a previous system. So because you're putting in a wing back and taking out a winger, really. This is probably his longest spell without starting, I would think as well for him since he's come into the United team.

It's probably a balancing out though, because he was probably starting too much, right? He came into the side and he started like 30 games in a row or whatever it was. And that was too much for a young player that, you know, we have high hopes for, but he certainly wasn't the finished article. It's not like he's, you know, Wayne Rooney or Cristiano Ronaldo at that age.

So I think it's probably a more even sense of where he's at in his career, capable of absolute brilliance, but also has some faults to iron out. And in that situation, him coming on felt really significant for United because you could tell that there was opportunities for United if they attacked in the right way, particularly down that left. They were really good on that left-hand side. I think the stats show that like 58% of the attacks went down that path.

because you're looking at Trent Alexander-Arnold maybe not doing the defensive work so well. And yeah, I thought he was, I thought he's crossed. That's what he can do well. You know, we saw it against City, didn't we? When he wriggled into space and that was a comeback win, teeing up Marcus Rashford for the tap-in. And this time he's teeing up his mate, Ahmad. I mean, a small sort of side point on that, you know, Rasmus Heuland wasn't on the receiving end of it. And I did think that with a striker who's full of confidence and has a greater...

I don't know, appreciation of exactly where to run and drive. I don't know, I think United could have even scored a couple of goals in that first half. He obviously did really well to get through, but he didn't have that conviction in his finish for that one-on-one. I want to defend him of it, I'll be honest. That lad gave everything this afternoon, I thought, personally watching it. Do you think? I was watching him limping down the tunnel after the game. Yeah, he got kicked to crap. Fair enough there in that sense, I suppose. It just...

There was one where Masraoui put it down the line and he gets to the ball ahead of Robertson but then he goes past Robertson and sort of falls over. It just didn't stick too much in my opinion but I accept that

Again, he's a player that, you know, the price tag and the fact that he's number nine, he's playing a lot more and there's a lot more expectation on him than really should be the case given what he's done in his career to this point. And he can finish. He's very isolated, I think, as well. Even if he does stick and he does win things, it doesn't feel like there's often players up and around him to... Maybe I'm defending him too much here. But I just watch that lad come off and just think...

He just doesn't get opportunities very often either, does he? And when he gets one at Anfield, I know that the expectation of a Manchester United centre-forward is to take that one chance that they get. But considering how few opportunities he does get, it feels like there's so much pressure on every single chance almost. If this was Sunday League, if this was five-a-side and you had someone like Hoyland on your team,

There would probably be a moment where you are telling him, stop dropping deep, stop running wide and just get in the box and leave the dirty stuff to the rest of us. And if we fail, we fail. Laurie's absolutely bang on in that, that chance in the first half that comes on, he takes a touch. If he is confident and if he is in stride, he doesn't take that touch. He hits it first time before Alison gets his feet set. Is that...

right now doesn't take that touch. He's like, just wax that. Then it goes top bins and it goes whatever. And this is a very awkward situation that you've got a striker who has potential and absolutely has some things he needs to iron out, but also he's in a situation where he probably doesn't have the time to work on those kings right now. It's basically him or bust because Xerxe is such a different kind of striker.

And there are two or three times where, yes, he is isolated and he has to hold up play and he has to do things that aren't his natural bit. But there are times where the ball is flashing across the six yard box and he stood there and you're going, why aren't you sticking a leg out? And he's not sticking a leg out because he's not

feeling encouraged right now because that ball isn't coming with any sort of regularity. I think this is the annoying thing about Manchester United in that you've got a bunch of players who are absolutely better than what they can be but they're low in confidence. But how do you get them to be higher in confidence without essentially, I don't know, taking them all to a big curry night? He did really well to create the chance because he went the opposite way to the way which Liverpool's defenders thought he was doing and

And Alisson's a good goalkeeper. He did the right thing as well. He came out, he made himself big and he did shoot straight at the goalkeeper. And you do think at some point, because it has been a bit of a hallmark of his matches. You're not seeing these Rooney-esque finishes, but as you quite rightly said, he isn't a Wayne Rooney. Yeah, I think with Hoyland, I think he just, for me, epitomises everything about the team and the club at the moment, because you can see there's something there and every now and then he shows it.

and I don't think it's a lack of effort I was watching him wrestle with Kanate and Van Dijk and he's giving it his all and they're pretty formidable defenders Van Dijk in particular but Kanate as well certainly his physicality and pace he had his hands full and he's occupying the ball for them and he's trying to bring people in and he's trying to make the right run

And he just doesn't seem to get many opportunities. And when he does, he's snatching at them like he did in the first half. But, you know, if United are to get better, they need to get more out of the centre-forward. But if United are to get better, they need to provide more for the centre-forward as well. His shots per night, he is good.

He's also not shooting anywhere near enough that you want to strike it to. I think I saw a stat in the last couple of weeks that he had sort of the fewest shots of strikers who play regularly in the Premier League this season. And again, it's that real sort of five-a-side Sunday League stuff of you probably taking him to one side and going, Rasmus, you've got to shoot three times every single half. And if you don't, you have to buy a round for everyone after this game.

That sort of rudimentary, we don't care if it's on target or off target, just keep shooting more. Because when he does shoot, it does tend to be a decent thing because he's got enough between the ears, noggin, whatnot, and effort. But he's just not shooting enough because of other reasons. I think we get to this point with quite a few of these United players of, you are talented enough.

Just drown out the social media noise and whatever noise on the broadcast and saying you're this and this and you're average. Just keep running and keep shooting and you will win. I'm not saying you're going to be top four, but you will be better than what you eventually are. Just remember how good you actually are. Please, please.

Yeah, one day they will. Let's talk about Joshua Xerxe, Andy. The reaction from the away fans when he came onto the field, the reaction when he was warming up even on the touchline, singing his name, a warm applause coming on. It was good to see that, wasn't it? Yeah, it was right. Maybe elements of guilt left the way that he was treated the other night. It wouldn't have done his confidence any good at all. We discussed it on the last podcast.

And maybe some good can come from the bad that happened against Newcastle. To know that, from his mind, Manchester United fans are behind him, even in these difficult moments. But he will still have to be performing well to get the full support of the supporters. There's more focus on him now.

I was willing him towards the end. He put that ball across for Harry, didn't he? Yeah. It wasn't the perfect ball by any stretch. And Harry McGrath was also in another position. Canarte just got his head to it. He was just waiting to head it in again in front of the away ends. Imagine what a buzz it must be scoring in front of the away ends at Anfield because you're so tight in there, aren't you? It's 3,000 people. It's one of the best moments in world sport when...

they sing their song about walking through a storm or whatever. And then the whole end just goes, Manchester. It's absolutely brilliant. There was actually some solidarity between the two sets of fans today, which I think I should mention the 1958 group and the, the spy on cop 1906 group. They had, um,

a joint they met and held up a big flag saying stop exploiting loyalty it's all about ticket prices and I found that quite interesting because we've not seen that before but

But, you know, I want Liverpool to lose every game that they play. But the two clubs and the two fan bases do actually have a lot in common. And they face very similar issues, especially on issues like ticket prices. The thing about today then, Laurie, it's got to be something to build on now, hasn't it, for Manchester United? We said that in fairness after Ahmad did his thing at the Etihad, but now he's done his thing at Anfield as well. This has to be a platform for better for Manchester United. I thought Bruno Fernandes was spot on in his interview after the game where he said...

where's this been in previous weeks if we can do that here why can't we do that everywhere and he includes himself in that yeah I like how Pat who does the Sky Sports post-match interviews then said well can you answer your own question please Bruno yeah exactly where has it been why can't you do it every week and he didn't really have an answer and I suppose maybe he does have an answer but he can't really say it publicly and

And, you know, Ruben Amarin echoed that in his post-match press conference. And we touched on it earlier about him saying stuff like, you win a relegation fight, you know, and kind of embracing that. And he mentioned that sometimes he doesn't always say the right things. He accepts that maybe, you know, he says too much perhaps, but he tries to jolt people. And he said that people at United, players, everybody have been too comfortable and he's trying to shock people. So,

I feel like that's a fair enough way to be and there's a humility there as well in terms of accepting maybe not everything is note perfect. But I think ultimately what he's trying to convey and what Bruno's trying to convey is that this obviously has to be a weekly occurrence. It can't just be, let's get hyped up for Anfield and let's show people that we are good players and let's prove them all wrong. Yeah, it's got to be, you know, at home to Southampton in the next Premier League game. I mean, that really could be something. I mean, the way that Southampton are going, you know, there's...

there's opportunity there, you think. But it was really encouraging, the number of good performances. And I think that first 11 that he picked was pretty close to what could be his best 11. You know, if you maybe put Lenny Yoro as the right centre-half, although I thought De Ligt did really well, albeit, you know, he kind of got done by Gakpo for the first goal and then, you know, the handball for the penalty. Other than that, five minutes maybe, yeah.

Yeah, I know it sounds a bit like quite a big caveat, but he was aggressive in the tackle. You mentioned Maguire's tackles. There was two by him and De Ligt on Diaz in the first half that then just really set the tone. And then Garnaccio, even when you mentioned him coming off the bench, he was flying into a tackle with, I think, Harvey Elliott. And it's that kind of commitment that you want to see where, you know, straining every sinew, you know,

running yourself into the turf so that when you do come off, you know, you're like, I have given absolutely everything there. And because there is quality and I think perhaps we haven't done enough on it, but Manuel Agarte, I thought was absolutely superb in midfield for intercepting and sensing danger. And then Bruno next to him or slightly ahead of him, you know, wriggling out of really tight spaces under pressure in build-up and then picking the right passes. I thought he was really, you know, a lot more sensible with his technique

decisions in play and I think he said that after the game didn't he where he realised that having control particularly at Anfield where Liverpool are so good on transition and if they have a loose ball they'll seize it to the maximum so I thought it was a pretty complete performance you mentioned Xerxe there the pass to Maguire was he right to pass was it the right pass I

I think Amarin defended him afterwards saying it was the right choice. He had the same thing with Dallow in the first half. Could he have put it along the floor? Was Ahmad too advanced? It was quite close, these moments. The other way, it would have been a very memorable victory that would have stood out in history, really, given how bad United have been and feel. But obviously, all the more important given the current situation. So they need to use that as fuel for the next games, for sure.

Yeah, they do. And Bruno Fernandes as well, he sort of owed United that performance in a way at Anfield, didn't he? He missed the nil-nil draw last year because he was suspended for the game and then the 7-0 return

He was one of the most heavily criticised players, to be fair. You could see it in him, actually. I saw him in the tunnel before the game. He looked incredibly focused. I thought he was Manchester United's best player today. Best of a very good bunch. We saw how much he was missed the other night. Him and Nogate, to be fair. Him and Nogate, yeah, the two of them. So when they came back, I loved his combinations with Ahmad. I noted that him and Deleuze

were the two players who were picked out by Slott, the Liverpool manager. To be fair to him, he called it right before the game by saying Manchester United have got some very good players. He didn't buy into this, and a manager's never going to. But I thought he was very realistic, and after the game as well, he actually praised Manchester United. But Fernandes was...

Was topping towards the end. He was trying to take shots. He was going for that winner all the time. And Trent Alexandrano will not be forgetting Bruno Fernandes. I thought it was his best performance of the season. And there was one moment, it was about 10 minutes to play. He had four Liverpool players around him. It was brilliant, yeah. And he took them all on and he came away with the ball. One of them got booked, I think. Trent. Yeah. I just thought, the control he's got here. Yeah.

It's just lovely to see. It wasn't quite au lait, au lait, was it? But lovely to see, especially at Liverpool. He can do more of that as well, progressing the ball through the middle of midfield. That's been one of the criticisms, I think, of him and one of the reasons why people have wondered how exactly he fits into this system for Ameren because they are desperate for players who can progress the ball in those areas.

We need to talk about Kobi Mainu as well. I keep saying we need to talk about things, but there's so many different things to pick out. We need to talk about a lot of things, Kyle. We need to talk about Kobi Mainu. It's his best performance of the season, wasn't it? I think due to the December congestion, Ameren was so focused on rotating that squad and making sure no one got burnt out that we might see between now and the start of February, the Ameren XI come to the fore. And I think...

Ugarte and Mane will probably come out as the best centre midfield pairing. Those two players are able to take the ball and drive with the ball through central midfield to a superior degree than Kasimir and Eriksen.

The interesting thing about Mainu and the thing that more than I've talked to Premier League club analysts and whatnot, and everyone keeps looking at Mainu and they're going, how good is he as a passer? And it's a real big question mark. So we've talked about his ability to carry, we've talked about his ability to receive the ball. We've talked about his perhaps not incredible recovery pace. But there are times when Mainu gets the ball, hits a pass and going, hang on.

Can you do that consistently week in, week out? And if you can, then United as a whole, you can start projecting them on a much better place. And he did a couple of passes in the derby and he's done a couple of passes now at Anfield where you're going, this is good. Can you do this week in, week out?

And I think this is the next big challenge for Maneu is that he, okay, there was two or three times in the first half in particular where Alexis McAllister was just burning into the pace. And you're like, all right, fine. If you can't catch that, you can't catch that. And we'll have to sort that out in the back three. But there are bits where he's got the ball, he's dropped the shoulder, hit the pass, hit a switch pass especially, which he wasn't doing last season as well. And you're going, this is good. How many times can you keep it in this switch pass? I think this is the big thing about Maneu.

Manu going forward is that we're going to reach. It's all uncharted territory for him. I don't know how good Manu is, but there are signs every now and again where you're going, he could be very, very good. And if you get the right bodyguard next to him, which Ugati seems willing for the fight, the signs are very promising. I think with Manu, he's had to prove himself more to the new coach than almost all of the other players have.

I agree, for sure. You know, Eric Ten Hag was a big fan of Kobi Mainu. I think that Ruben Amorim has been like, oh yeah? And you've seen him fade a bit from view and obviously he's come in and today was great for him because it was his best performance of the season. And how wonderful to see a Mancunian United fan doing so well and another who combined well with Bruno. So you can see...

If that midfield that you're talking about starts to click, then you're like, whoa, we might be moving up from 13th to 11th by next season. Yeah, the interaction actually between Bruno Fernandes and Kobe Mania really worked, didn't it? They seemed to play in a similar sort of area throughout that game and a big reason why United were so effective on that left-hand side. I mean, the other thing, Laurie, we've not really talked about was the conditions. There was obviously quite serious concern about the match this morning so much that it needed...

two safety meetings, one at nine o'clock and one at 11.45. Obviously they decided in the end that the game would go ahead. There was sort of well-known evidence

What a sartorial choice that was. Yeah. Danny on X, Danny Rowan says, where do you get your plastic trousers from, Ian?

um well if you want my honest answer um it was a bin bag from the media lounge that the woman behind the counter very very kindly gave me it was the only way to stay dry it's all glamour this television lads you don't know what you're missing at times but yeah i mean the conditions were they needed to be up for the fight united just to deal with all of that because it was miserable wasn't it for sure i mean you know the roof was leaking let's not uh

forget to mention that. How was that not headline news? I thought that was supposed to go viral everywhere as soon as the roof leaked. If that's Old Trafford, you know, that's getting tweeted. I mean, I put it on my Instagram story, so I don't know how widespread that'll be picked up, but, you know, so you had that... I've not seen your old mates at the Daily Mail picking it up just yet. Okay, exactly, there we go. So, you know, different standards maybe when it's Old Trafford being talked about. But, yeah, I mean, the conditions were freezing. I think it was two degrees at kick-off, something like that. That's not quite freezing, just... Okay, well...

Almost freezing. Okay, bloody Mr. Technicality. I was trying to think of a famous weatherman there and I couldn't think of anybody. Michael Fish. Okay, fine. By very definition, it's two degrees above freezing. Okay, facetious, fine. But I was very impressed by Harry Maguire, Matthijs de Ligt, Ryan Gravenberch and Cody Gakpo. So Dutch representation, big time there. Short sleeve, no gloves.

In the second half, Maguire actually came out with a kind of underlay on and then there was a bit later on in the game where he was like, sod this, took off his whole thing, took the underlay off and put his t-shirt back on. I mean, the piles of snow on the pitch side, I mean, it nearly caused an injury to Trent, I think, at one point. Cobby Mayne did like a pirouette and a

a forward roll he did have an odd dance he would have been proud of that I mean and I know this is like the world's smallest violin but I had to park across from Stanley Park I'm saying it I'm saying it and I didn't Andy you know he's had some expedition the other week up K2 this is to rivalry and he did it in trainers this time as well so go on Laurie so where did you get from a two

Well, so Goodison Park, remember that place that got locked in after the seven nil. So fortunately, you know, there's no lock in this time, but I had to walk back through the pitch black through Stanley Park in trainers and my feet got absolutely soaked.

because I kept standing in puddles. It would do, mate. You weren't even wearing hiking socks. What's this about? Exactly. So you walked like one kilometre across a concrete. It might have been 1.1. Wow. There was some mud there, Andy, actually. There was some grass and ice and snow. It was slippy as well. It was slippy. There were steps. I had to get a bridge over the lake or whatever it is. And I nearly slipped and broke my neck. It's pitch black.

you know, thanks guys. I appreciate, you know, your solidarity in this. You're very lucky that I'm even here to be on the podcast, basically. And Ian, what happened to your fancy new coat, by the way? Why were you wearing a bin bag? No, no, I was sat in the bin bag. The coat was on, the coat was great, but I needed the bin bag to keep my legs dry. Right. Okay. So you didn't have the pants. My mum always used to say, if you're stylish, you can get away with wearing a bin bag. So I'll get her a picture of you in the bin bag. You don't need expensive clothes. Yeah.

It was a clear bin bag as well Andy. Okay. Barely pushed the boat out. None of this black nonsense. Right. There was one man who missed out on it all and before we finish the podcast we should talk about it because Laurie's article went out on The Athletic on Saturday explaining some of the context around Marcus Rashford's continued absence from the Manchester United team. Obviously he was back in the squad Laurie for the Newcastle game. He missed this match according to Ruben Amarin because of illness.

But there was some very revealing, I use this word a lot with Manchester United and athletic articles of late, but some very revealing detail in the piece about exactly why he's been out of favour of late. Yeah, so I think for me, it traces back to a conversation that Ruben Amarin had with Marcus Rashford after the Everton game. So if you remember, he started that game, scored two, played well, looked really vibrant. But what had been talked about with Amarin before that was that he didn't

realised this before the game, was that Marcus Rashford had gone out on the Friday night in Manchester and he was told about this afterwards. So, Amarin had a conversation with him to ask him because I don't think he thinks that going out within 48 hours of kick-off is a good move. That's not something that he wants players in his squad to do. Had a conversation with Rashford about it and Rashford assured him that there was...

I think the right phrase in the piece is that he'd been misinformed about a late night, shall we put it like that. So there's claim and counterclaim about Marcus Rashford's social life. But I think what came from speaking to several sources is that there is a concern about the level to which he is applying himself in training and getting enough sleep.

And then there was a poor performance in the training session before the City game when we were described as putting in a lacklustre performance, sort of looking fatigued. So that's on the Saturday before the Sunday game. And that's obviously the bit where then Amarim puts in the, well, someone puts in the WhatsApp group what the team and squad is and Rashford realised that he's not in it. And Garnaccio as well, obviously, in that moment, we should add that. But clearly, as we've seen, the Garnaccio thing, as I think we've mentioned on this podcast before,

isn't judged as seriously as the Rashford situation. So it feels like it's a pretty tense situation where Amrin wants to see a lot more from Rashford in terms of his training application. I think Rashford will say that he's not doing anything other than what every other young player perhaps does in the Premier League. He's allowed to enjoy his life, but I think maybe from Amrin United's point of view, if that comes at the expense of

you know, performing and playing at your optimum, then I think then there's going to be an issue. So he's, you know, we speak about him, you know, speaking...

in a way of shocking people. Well, he's taken an action here that certainly caused a jolt and let's see how it ends up. But we obviously know that there's a January transfer window open right now. There's some people that will suggest, is this part of Manchester United looking to offload Marcus Rashford? I don't know if I subscribe to that because his transfer value goes down the longer he's not in the squad. But equally, I suppose they might be saying, well, it makes it unsavoury for him to stick around if he's not playing and that will make him more open to a move.

But he said himself that he might be open to a new challenge, whether that was in response to stories that had come out about United being open to offers. I think that's one argument that's been made. But clearly it feels a very delicate situation. It feels one where there's not a clear path through unless there's a sort of serious change happening.

um from Amarant's side anyway in terms of what Marcus Rashford is producing at Carrington yeah okay obviously he's missed out there on a two-all draw at Anfield like he missed out on a 2-1 win at Manchester City as well so you wonder if that if that stirs something in the situation or whether it's beyond it to be honest at this point just on the transfer situation Andy just just before we go Amarant did say in his press conference before this game that they were going to try to do something in January um

Do you think there is any wriggle room to try something? Yeah. Or is that just him being optimistic? I think it would be players leaving first, creating that wriggle room. So if you add some of the higher earners, that will create some room for him to bring players in. So I think Marcus Rashford's situation could be interesting. Casemiro's situation could be interesting. Holtzman,

whether Manchester United beat Arsenal next week is also a factor because he's got a plan for the number of games he's got until the end of the season this month we're also going to know about the Europa League as well because remember we're all going to Bilbao in May for the Europa League final because if you can please I know exactly mate because

Because if you can play like that against Liverpool, then you can certainly play that. And Bilbao is such a good city as well. Honestly, it's one of the best food, one of the best cities in Europe. The Basques are absolutely great. I wonder if I started talking about the Europa League final. I don't know. But January is important because it's going to set forward what's happening. So I think...

If Ruben Amarin loses players, then he's going to want to replace them. Either, I think as Carlo Lloris said, loan moves would be more likely. You're not going to be getting any Bruno Fernandes 75 million quid signings. Those days are long gone. The longer you watch United under Amarin, the more it becomes very clear that this team needs a left-footed left wing back.

in that I am very grateful that Malasia has come back to playing football again. But also, if Malasia is in the starting lineup, that is a soft indication from Hammering how seriously he's taking a game. And United will probably need to get a player who is superior to Malasia in a number of facets on the left-hand side. And I think the quickest way United go from being

where they are to being a better team is if they can get a left wing back between now and January and what knows. I mean, there is a very interesting buyback clause on one football player who can do that job, but I have no idea if you're going to have enough money for that. So we'll see what happens between now. I'm looking at my watch. I'm sure Laurie and Ornstein are going to... Yeah, I'm sure Laurie and Ornstein are going to be...

On the phones, checking that out between now and the end of January. Laurie, final word? I agree with Carl that that left wing back position is one that Amarou would love to strengthen. You've got Dallo who did really commendably there, but I think he's been...

his sort of fit in that situation isn't necessarily a perfect one. And so, yeah, I think if they can do anything, I wouldn't, maybe they can do some kind of loan deal. I'm not sure exactly on the space that they've got in PSR and FFP, but it certainly feels like it's got to be exits for incomings. And I suppose that there's a few players in that squad, to Andy's point, that are on quite a bit of money that they might want to shift on.

So Victor Osherman one way, Marcus Rashford the other then, Larry, that's what you're saying, that sort of loan deal? I mean, yeah, absolutely. Let's try and figure that one out. I mean, they did do a weird loan deal, didn't they, when Valtvegos was on loan somewhere else from Burnley and they had to recall him for that and then put him back on loan. So I don't know what the exact circumstances are with Napoli and Galatasaray with Osherman, but...

Yeah, I don't know. It'd be fascinating to see what this month brings. Victor Osherman's agent is a very particular character. Napoli's chairman is a very particular character. They're both quite rambunctious and quite...

on social media and newspapers. So what I'm telling you on this podcast is to not pay attention to what's being tweeted out. Well, he's already said, I think, Osherman's agent, that he's going to be playing in red in the Premier League. I think no matter what they say, you should pay attention to what Laurie says first because he's going to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Yeah, agents trying to manipulate and formulate new deals from... From Manchester United? Never happened. Yeah, it's not just new contracts, right? Excuse me, I've got a phone call from Sergio Ramos. Yeah, could be anyone, couldn't it? Yeah, I know the journalist who got that phone call. It was from Sergio Ramos' brother and suddenly it's like, yeah, Sergio Ramos is interested in joining Manchester United.

It's happened quite a lot in the last decade, hasn't it? Dani Almo is a good player at Barcelona and his contract situation is a complete mess. The probability is that he's going to go out on loan to a non-competing club and

with Barcelona he's an absolutely brilliant midfielder he's a bit like Scott McTominay actually who scored against David de Gea for Napoli the other night but Olmo and I've gotten zero indication that he's going to Manchester United by the way this is just he was leading us to that wasn't he then and now he's just in a U-turn no no I have spoken to people Olmo is a very good player Scott McTominay scored past David de Gea this week

Romelu Lukaku scored past David De Gea this week. Yeah, in the same game. Yeah, there are plenty of former Manchester United players out there in the ether who are doing well. I had one person message me before kick-off today who said,

sent me the old lineup from the last time Manchester United got a win on the Louis van Gaal in 2016 saying how many of this 11 do you think would you take in the current Man United 11 and I went it's more than one person as they are now as well yeah well

Well, there's more than one person in 2016 I would say, and there's more than one person where I went, yeah, you know, how are you doing Ashley Young? Yeah. I was going to make you say that name if you didn't do it yourself, Carl. How are you doing Ashley Young? How are you doing?

I had a great interview with Ashley Young just before Christmas for Prime Video when I was working for them. And it was done early because obviously it was coming up to Christmas and it was to preview Everton's trip to Manchester City on Boxing Day. And Ashley Young being the seasoned pro that he is,

managed to pick up a booking the following weekend against Chelsea and missed the game against Manchester City. Veteran experience. Hence making our interview absolutely useless. But it was a lovely chat, Ashley, and thank you again. I do remember there was one game just before Christmas where it very much looked as if Marcus Rojo wanted Christmas off. Yeah, and did it happen? He didn't get a direct red card, but it just very much looked as if he wanted Christmas off.

Yeah, I think there's definitely something in that for some players, certainly. I'm not suggesting that Ashley Young wanted to miss the trip to the Etihad. He might have just wanted to ruin our interview, but anyway...

Never mind. Let's not end on a sour note. Let's end on a positive note. Manchester United look far more like a Manchester United side. Let's hope it's the start of something. We're back on Thursday. We want your questions as well ahead of our next record. Devilspod at theathletic.com. If you want to get in touch, you can ask us anything ahead of the FA Cup tie at Arsenal this weekend. We'll be back on Thursday with the next podcast. But for the moment, Andy Carl-Lorre, thank you very much and thanks for listening. See you soon. Bye-bye.

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