Protests energise Old Trafford for Arsenal draw
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Shopify.com slash The Athletic. The Athletic FC Podcast Network. 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2. Bruno Fernandes, beauty! Now that is a... Beyond Masraoui, Timber, Rice, Delta, and Arsenal are level. Bruno Fernandes, Collier, Highlands. Smuggled away from him by Gabriel. Masraoui, Fernandes, Fires, Claudio...

This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. We are inside an empty in Old Trafford. It's actually busier than it normally is when we're recording these podcasts. There's still a hum of activity, a bit of energy, welcome bit of energy in this stadium today. It was only a one-all draw against Arsenal, but it certainly felt better.

Well, look at all the details of that. Of course, there was a huge protest before the game by supporters against the running of the club as well. We'll definitely reflect on that. And we also need to preview the next match, which is only in, what, three or four days here against Real Sociedad in the Europa League.

Laurie Whitwell, Karl Anka, Andy Mitton, the band is all together. Best podcasters, aren't they? Usually after a win though, but that was good, wasn't it? That was better, yeah? That felt almost like a win, you know, particularly at the end when Bruno Fernandes nearly got a stoppage time winner. I mean, that would have lifted the roof off this place.

And I do wonder how much the protests before the game fed into that atmosphere, because there were certainly a few tackles that went in, players sort of geeing up the fans, fans reacting. You've got that kind of febrile atmosphere that I think maybe helped in the second half, certainly. The first half was a bit boring, but ultimately that was the goal that Bruno Fernandes scored. And then at the end, second half, they cranked up, got a few more chances. And I enjoyed it, right? A goal in the first half, it could catch on this, couldn't it?

energy about it Andy, they actually probably should have won it actually considering the chances in the second half as well but just generally the whole game felt better yeah? It did feel better, I enjoyed the game of football, I thought it was much better in the second half but clearly Bruno's strike in the first half gave everyone a huge lift, I think the protest did add an edge to the atmosphere, the presence of one of the Glazers as well, Jim Ratcliffe as well, when people know that then that plays into it.

A little bit of chide in Arsenal because I think they'd won the previous four or five against Manchester United. Four in a row in the league, yeah. They had 69% possession in the first half, but United, despite all of the injuries, had a game plan and I think it started to work really well in the second half, even though they scored their excellent goal. Raya, who had almost nothing to do in the first half, had to make three, four, five good saves in the second half and you come away thinking, ah,

I'm sure we'll talk about those chances, but there's been so many games this year that have been really poor here. It's nice to talk after a good performance. David Raya somehow made the most glaring error in the game, but also was man of the match. Some of the saves in the second half especially were brilliant.

The way that United played today, Carla, I listened to Ruben Amrin talk after the game, saying it was necessary to play in a bit more of a low block against this Arsenal team. But they managed to still play in the shape that he wanted and they still managed to find transitional moments in the second half.

with the low block, it's like a marrying of styles but it kind of worked? Kind of worked. Look, Arsenal getting 60% possession plus against Manchester United only for Man Utd to counter attack and score. We've seen it before and at the end at half time I'm going, I've got a big grin on my face going we're going to do it, we're going to smash and grab them all over again because we've seen this happen so many times against Arsenal, against various Arsenal managers, with various United managers.

And that's interesting because Aaron has said the low block isn't the style of football he really necessarily wants to play. He wants United to be the protagonist. He's been saying this even before he turned up as the main United manager. I think he said it not too long after he beat Man City 4-1. We can't play this way. I heard him say in the tunnel, this is not for the future, but for now it's necessary. Yeah. I'm encouraged by that actually.

Amarant's not as dogmatic as he's often painted. I know there's a lot of conversation about this theory at the back, but when it's supposed to work and the players and the profiles are in there, they're not going to be playing 3-4-3 in every single stage. They shift and move all the time. In fact, one of the problems for a long time on the United on Amarant is when Harry Maguire has to wander forward and turn it into a 4-3-3. He's not necessarily the most mobile central defender to do that.

So that's good. They've developed a game plan to at least take Arsenal to a 1-1 draw, but unfortunately this time we didn't have an extra time and penalty shootouts to get it done. That would have been nice, wouldn't it? I was enjoying that. I was sat next to Paul Scholes for the game. You know, we have conversations sometimes, don't we, where we say 11-year-old me would have been absolutely chuffed. 38-year-old me was chuffed today, to be fair. And he predicted that free kick. As we sat there, he said, that wall's too far back.

and I said I think David Raya's quite far over he said I could easily put it in that corner player of Bruno's potential and ability and boom so what you're saying is you both saw it actually you're equals in that moment no no he definitely started it and then I the only thing I really added was the fact that the keeper was too far over this is before Bruno struck it we should have done commentary really fan cam the pair of us kicking every ball you saw it I think you're right and also he's got that

free-kick goal against Jordan Pitford so he's in the mode of it in that sort of corner as well again yeah it did feel like I mean yeah 11.2 yards they were saying right should have been 10 big

Is that a big difference? I don't know. Obviously, Paul Scholes is someone that would know that kind of thing. I don't know. Is it 11.2% bigger? Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Good maths. Quite simple maths. Look what he's got in his A-levels in maths. You know what I mean? Where's Critch when you need him? But I think what it showed us also was the adoration that Bruno is held in right now because the love from the fans to him and then him reciprocating that I think was really telling. There's a lot of emotions going into that.

starved of quality this season, the protest going on, the kind of enduring quality that he's got and the availability that he's got. I mean, by the end, he was absolutely knackered, wasn't he? And there was quite a few players that were sort of flopped to the floor. But he was there, he had his time, racing onto that chance from Masraoui. If he'd put it...

He's trying to put it through the middle of the goal, I think, rather than the other side of Raya. So maybe trying to do the same thing again, putting it where Raya should have been. But this time he was there. And so, yeah, I think overall he's just a quality player. And afterwards, Zamrin was saying, yeah, we need more players like Bruno, basically. Yeah, producer always just texts me to say that actually it was 12% bigger. So got simple maths wrong there.

I don't know. It has been a long day. And I don't care, really, because that was really good, wasn't it? It was. It was. And that second half, there were so many moments in there. You're thinking, this is it. This is it. They're going to get them done. Xerxe with a backheeled... Just kick it in. A backheeled flick. I could have fallen over. Did he? Yeah, he couldn't have done it any other way. Just kick it in. One thing I really did enjoy was the wing-back-to-wing-back movement. So, Dalov, bless his heart.

He had a moment maybe five minutes before he burst forward to get this crossing where he makes a really nice clean tackle and the ball's free and he just dribbles it straight out of play and you can see he sort of shrugs his shoulders like "Oh God, what a goof!" and I'm going "You are so tired."

physically and mentally he's played so much football across 2024 and into this year he does sometimes make just the most ridiculous mistakes however because he has this sort of mini Bruno Fernandes I'm always going to be available I'm always going to put 100% in you do get that moment where he's bursting down and you go just get the cross right just get the cross right and he does he gets it from Masraoui I think Masraoui was sensational today you think about he's doing such a big shift and he's been fasting

as well. 6-0-6, I was really impressed as well. Before the game we were told 6-0-6 is when the players will have the opportunity who are observing Ramadan to break their fast and it was exactly 6-0-6 when Declan Rice scored and offered the opportunity for the substitutions to be made and the players to break their fast as well.

Not that that was the most interesting thing about today, but yeah. But that chance. Yeah, Masraoui should have scored. Wing-back to wing-back. That's what Amarant's football looks like. That's what sporting used to do all the time. That's the sort of football that, ideally, when Dorgou is coming back from suspension, he might be able to offer that as well. You've got the marriage of the low-block players

with the 3-4-3 and if you can get a little bit more of that wing-back to wing-back movement and you can get a bit more movement up front and you can I keep saying and and and and and and and and but it's got a bit of ands but yeah it's how far away this Man United team is away from what Amarant wants but there is just the tiniest shoots

One of Delo's crosses ended up in the cricket ground, but the one for Masraoui was beautiful. And he connected on it. Oh, it's horrible to that. He fell to his knees when Masraoui put it away. Yeah, because that's a week's worth of narrative turned on its head if he crosses the ball for a goal because he's had so much shit, bless him, because of Laurie's article mainly, about the fact he didn't cross the ball to Hoyland. I understand that he just didn't see him. That's what he said after the game. But yeah...

There was more in that, there was definitely more in that and Hoyland again as well. One of the chances was a brilliant toe from Gabriel, the other one, just stick it in the net. A bit like Xerxes, just don't try something clever, just stick it in the goal. He had two chances, Hoyland. There was a lovely tackle from Rice but Hoyland

Hoyland's first touch was heavy he didn't even get a shot off he hesitated as well Andy's just kicked me under the table there by the way that's what Hoyland should have done Andy's putting his foot through it I didn't mean that I thought Garnaccio was excellent today as well and you're right to talk about Masraoui I thought Collier when he came on there was a lot of energy about him I think he chased Trossard down at one point so lots to be encouraged about given so many absences I thought Casemiro was good so that's two good games he's had now

and 90 minutes he's trying he's trying the first half pointing out to Laurie maybe it's around a half hour mark what are you laughing at I'm remembering now Karl mentioning this to me and I'd seen it at the moment but then the replay comes up on the screen in front of us and it's Casemiro

trying really hard to get back. - California's got a bit of unbroken space, broken space, broken into space down the left. And Casemiro, this may be 10, 15 yards, Casemiro's going, "I'm gonna tackle you." And he's top speed, arms are flapping up and down and up and down and up and down and up and down. - And Carl's just pointing at the TV screen going, "Look at him, look at him, look at him." - I was just like, 26-year-old Casemiro closes this space and makes a tackle.

31, 32-year-old Casemiro can get there just enough so Calafiore feels the pressure and then his shot goes off target. And I think that's it, right? A bit similar to the Emirates game. This is not anywhere close to being an Emirates team. However, there are, you can see they're grafting. They're going, I'm going to gut this out and we'll figure out what happens next. The other little bit, to Kyle's point as well, wing-back to wing-back, is...

weirdly enough, centre-back to centre-back and De Ligt was doing that kind of role a little bit in the game as well, crossing the ball into the box. That's ultimately... If all these players are really comfortable on the ball, and Aidan Heaven is a case in point to that, Carl was telling me during the game that he used to be a midfielder when he was coming through and has dropped back, so he's obviously got that ball-playing ability. So if you've got those kind of auxiliary centre-backs able to carry the ball and put crosses in, that just...

makes it a much more attacking formation than a back five. And ultimately, you know, Dilip was obviously trying that today as well. Yeah, there was some reservations when people saw the team sheet and saw Casemiro and Eriksen lining up in the midfield. Rich, I think, pretty much exemplifies what fans are feeling. Before the game, he got in touch...

I've just seen the team sheet for today's match with Ericsson and Casemiro in midfield and I'm already full of fear. Actually more fear than when Amarin did this against Newcastle. He then got back in touch at half-time to say, this is why I work in finance and not football. No matter the result, it's half-time when I'm writing this. Ruben, I'm sorry. I call them the got-to-hold-my-hands-up fans. They make really damning statements, not opinions like facts.

well I've got all my hands up here I said he should have been sold but he's now the top scorer and I mean fans can do that if managers did that well said it many times that's about the only thing Amarin's not done so far innit the one tweet to that though is that Eriksen was further forward this time yeah at 10 yeah so just to it was a slight reconfiguration of the Newcastle game midfield and central midfield is going to be really really important the first one reason why the first half was so turgid is because

Casimir Eriksen and Fernandes aren't the best carrying the ball from deep across that halfway line so a lot of those passes you're going to have to go along to Xerxe Xerxe wasn't getting the rub the green from the referee in the first half especially there was loads of times where he was backing up into the defender and then falling over and the referee was like stand up you're not getting a foul and when that's not happening you've got to be inventive and luckily you get Bruno Fernandes free kick to give you the advantage They played deep because they had to play deep we should also point out that Arsenal are not winning the league again this year

as the fans were coming in and congratulating Arsenal for finishing second again. Brilliant lads, second again, nice one, keep on finishing. Declan Rice, right? So here's me, my intonation. Great goal, whatever. But what on earth are you doing? What on earth are you doing? First of all, I don't really understand why you need to shush the United fans in the first place. But I certainly don't understand why you need to shush fans when you've just equalised against the 15th team in the country today.

And you're the team who's supposed to be trying to win the game. Shouldn't he be just running, going, getting the ball and running back to the centre circle rather than doing all this? Are you suggesting he should just stay humble? Because scoring at Old Trafford is a big deal for any footballer in the world in front of 73,000. It doesn't matter the position of Manchester United. It is still Manchester United. The reputation does precede them. And yet it could have saved 32 seconds had he bombed back.

But just get on with it. He scored a brilliant goal. An equaliser. If I was him, I would have gone right in front of the Stretford end as well. Stick that up, yeah, you wanted me, didn't you? You couldn't afford me, yeah, right in front of the Stretford end. Well, do it whilst running and then run back at the same time. And have a go at the south stand while you're at it as well. Stuff like that. I mean, he doesn't play for Manchester United, so I shouldn't really concern myself with it. But if I'm an Arsenal supporter, I'd be really irritated by that.

I love his... He's like Teddy's a Roy Keane here, hasn't he? On Rice. It's always Rice. Can I just ask you one question? Just little things like that. You need to win. So go and get the ball. Go back to... I don't care. You could have scored an overhead kick like Garnaccio at Goodison Park. If you need to win, which Arsenal should have been desperate to do today against the team that they should be beating considering United's form, get on with it. One question. Did Declan Rice used to go out with your wife? No. No.

How do you follow that, Carl? I can't. I can't top that. Shall we talk more about Hoyland? I'm just getting excited because we drew. That would have been something like Narratives and Dallow and yes, it was a really great cross from him and I knew you'd need to make that point after I... Write an article about it, Larry. I've done a tweet about it. That feels good correction. But Hoyland...

It felt like that would have been a narrative change, wouldn't it? Imagine scoring the winner in a game like this, coming off the bench as well. But that just sort of seemed to betray to me someone that hasn't scored for 19 games and now 20, obviously. Okay, it's a bit harsh maybe. All those aren't 90 minutes, are they? Appearances does count, doesn't it? Yeah, so it just like...

Obviously, the first touch was a bit heavy, but then get your body in the way. You shouldn't be taking a first touch. I don't mind the first touch because I feel like he... One touch, but...

but quick, sharp, really, he was taking one touch and then it was like another step and then that gives Declan Rice the chance. He doesn't know Rice is coming back to him that quickly, but he's not protecting the ball either, is he? No. He's just lacking confidence. He's thinking about things. Overthinking it maybe in that instance. He's thinking about things which happen when you're low in confidence, whereas Izak just hits that first time because he doesn't need to think about all these sorts of things right now because he's in such a flow. He can just tap into the correct part.

was fantastic and maybe that played into things but we...

I feel so bad for Hoyland because this is a person who clearly doesn't have a great deal of confidence. So he feels really mean when we keep talking about this. I think he's going to go and get the goal that sends Manchester United through to the quarter-finals of the Europa League on Thursday. There's my prediction. Why are you looking at me like that? I'd be buzzing. I want to believe in you. I really want to believe what you think. Let's manifest it. You know what we're talking about. We'll bring it onto the podcast again. I just want to shoot. I don't care if it's off target. I don't care if it's speculative. I don't care if...

He takes it and everyone knows, "Oh, he's going to shoot." And they just stand in the way and block it. Just put your foot through it and get in the rhythm of doing it over and over and over again. I've spoken to former pros and they talk about when they're in a funk like this, the coach comes over with a bag of balls and goes, "We're not leaving until you've scored all these." Or when you're walking back from training before you leave the pitch, if there's a ball just errant, you just turn around and kick it into the net and get yourself into the rhythm.

And he's just, lad, please, I do need you to do well. I desperately want you to do well for this football club. You do have to be brave, even when you're scared. Hit the damn thing. Yeah, I agree with that. I'm just thinking then, what number's Heaven? It'd be great if he was 17, but that's just my mind wondering. Why 17? Well, because people of my age remember that there was a band in the 1980s when you lot were about two called Heaven 17.

I've literally never heard of them. Have you heard of the Beatles? Let's just establish where we're at with music here. I know about East 17, yeah, but that's not to do with heaven, is it? Well, they did have a song called Stay Now, which does that sort of reference heaven in it? They look like they're in heaven on the video. Let's talk about musical interludes in heaven. Luke, who very graciously allows us in to,

to keep recording afterwards. Allows us to stay in more pertinently. Suggested a possible friend chant for Heaven once he establishes himself in there. I can't believe you're actually giving him the credit here. He tried to get me to sing this on this. The DJ Sammy song. Baby, you're all that I want When you're lying here in my arms I'm finding it hard to believe In Heaven

He's got to play more than 15 minutes. Try getting 50 lads from Salford to sing that. You're a brave man if you get that going. I can see merit in it. Belinda Carlisle, heaven is a place on earth. I used to fancy her when I was 14. Who else? Belinda. I don't know. A lot

She's probably a great-grandmother or something like that now. One night in Heaven, M People, but he was a blue one, Mike Pickering. What about Heather Smalls? Was she a red now? Sorry, I'm sorry. He's squad number 26, by the way, Heaven. I feel like we all need to regroup a little bit. So what, back to Aidan, have him been good at football? Just briefly, and then we'll take a break and then talk about the protest. He made a lot of interventions that I thought were very good defensively.

defensively he's good defending large areas of space which works in those in that sort of role right when you are those two wide centre backs you're going to spend a lot of time turning around tracking back 10-15 and then making a tackle on one of those wingers who are either going to try and cross the ball or invert you've got to have legs you've got to have awareness you've got to check your shoulders a lot and you've got to be brave in that one V1 heaven is a place on earth

I've got it. I've got another one. One of the most famous songs to come out of this city, Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now by Morrissey. But you can't be singing Heaven Knows I'm Miserable, is you? You're supposed to lift him up, not put him down. I thought you had a good idea then for a moment. No, no, it just popped into my head and I'll work on the idea and get back to you. He was signed to be the backup or eventual backup for Lissandra Martinis at that left centre-back spot. And if you look at it now, him and Lissandra Martinis, left centre-back, Joro and...

De Ligt in the right centre-back. I think De Ligt again had a really good game. He seems to be more comfortable playing on that right-hand side as well. Then you get the question of who takes the middle centre-back role, who I still don't know. I think Maguire can do it, but Maguire... Victor Lindelof, big Vic. First start since March in the Premier League, last March. Not the one gone, the one before. Won three aerial duels today. He doesn't always win that many against Premier League teams, so this is the thing. This United team isn't very good, and they've got a long way to go before they're an Ameren team, but they can scrap, or at least they can scrap against Arsenal.

A bit of humble pie for me actually because I thought that Aiden Heaven being announced as a first team signing was a bit of PR potentially because they hadn't signed anybody else apart from Patrick Dorgue. It has took 12 first team injuries. Fair enough, okay. But, clearly...

He is capable enough to do it. I know it's only been a couple of cameos. He looked great. Yeah, but it's clearly of that level. So I think it's a fair thing to call him a first team signing. Yeah, because that was a real challenge as well in the second half when Gabriel Martinelli's brought on. You could see why Arsenal were making that change to put a little bit more pressure on him. And Arteta would have seen plenty of him in training at Arsenal as well before January. Yeah, to come into a game like that, because you've seen how difficult

It's not easy, is it? I remember Willy Cambuala at Bournemouth last season, for example. The risks of making mistakes or being stunned by the magnitude of it in front of 73,000 people. So a good day for him. Relaxed, a little bit too relaxed was Amrin's post-match assessment sometimes, he says. But I think that's a good thing because obviously the pressure gets to some players at Man Utd.

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OK, well that's the game talked about for now. I'm sure we'll come back to certain details on it, but of course before the match there was a huge protest outside Old Trafford, marching from the Tollgate to the forecourt from the 1958 group and lots and lots of Manchester United fans demonstrating against the ownership, once again the Glazer ownership of Manchester United and the running of the club as well. These three were all out there.

witnessing what went on and how many people do you think it was? How many fans? 6,217. Well counted. A lot. So one of the journalists, a lot, one of the journalists said to me, police had said 1,500 and they completely disputed that. That's what they were getting ready for or that's what they thought it was. That's what an early estimation was. And the journalist said more like 5,000. So I stood on Sir Matt Busby Way and I'm a bit of a nerd for numbers.

And it was huge, mate. It was huge. What stand could it have filled? In what ground? Well, let's say that there were 5,000 people. That is a lot of people to show their anger, isn't it? There were a lot of people. Now, how many of them were walking to the ground anyway? But it was a lot. It was the opposite of a load of people behind a banner. It went on. I mean, it took them 10 minutes to pass where we were.

The journalist Oliver Holt came to see me and he agrees with it but he said singing about Joel Glazer dying is just the total wrong way of doing it and I think he tweeted that, I think he got a bit of stick for that.

A lot of people were wearing black. It was good natured. There was no aggression. The police policed it well from what I saw and it just shows the strength of feeling. There's frustration, there's desperation for the reasons which we've covered many times on this podcast. It was a perfect day for it because it wasn't a super early kick-off. The weather was fantastic.

And I think the fans who were on it behaved themselves and we live in a country where you are allowed to legally demonstrate. Kyle, you've done an interview with a member of the 1958 group about the protest. We'll play that in a moment, but if you'd like to just tee it up, what was the circumstance? Yeah, so I got to the toll gate just before three o'clock

Trying to get to Andy's level by sizing up a crowd. I know we've done Talk of the Devils live shows in front of 400 and 500 people and went, okay, how does this compare? So I thought that was it. And then I talked to the gentleman and I said, this is a big crowd. And he assured me it was going to get bigger. The original intent was they were going to meet at Tallgate for three and then hopefully get to Old Trafford for 3.15. That walk took...

half an hour because the numbers were so big. There was a point where I thought rather than just stand in front of it and take loads of photographs, I should probably stand on top of a wall and get a video and get a scale. And when you do that and you really see how far deep it went. Also the fact that, because it's a big fixture as well, there are many United fans coming from all over the world. So I saw one protester holding a banner saying United fan from Poland against the Glazer ownership as well. So this isn't just...

We talk about the stadium goer and we talk about the TV fan. This is a huge depth of feeling across Manchester United fans on local, national, international level who are all aggrieved about the current state of their football club. Ticket prices was a theme. So 66 quid, you're taking the piss. And also it's worth noting there were anti-Rackcliffe

I thought that was interesting as well. And my conversation with Steve, who I've spoken to in the past, I thought what was good from Steve was he actually gave a little bit of clarity as to what they hoped to achieve from this protest. Why? Where do you want me to start? The football club's on its knees. Glazers have killed us. Radcliffe's come in and he's done no better. So, you know, we're going backwards and...

All these fans here now are much-going fans and they're speaking for us all. Rakhov's saying hard decisions have had to be made. Do you buy that? Hard decisions a bit. Do you know what? Hard decisions are being made.

The average national wage of the employees that he's sacking is £24,000 a year. We're paying £103,000 a day in servicing the debt of the Glazers. So you get your priorities right, Jim. And where do you think things go from here?

Who knows? Who knows? But we won't stop making a noise. This is what we're capable of creating. And it'll carry on and it'll get bigger and it'll get louder. Jim Radcliffe needs to come out and give us a clear plan of where we're heading. Because if he doesn't, this just carries on.

yeah lori doesn't feel like today's the end of anything does it it feels like like steve's saying there to carl that you know there could be more of this no i mean obviously we've had you know quite a long time with this now going right back to 2004 2005 when the glazers takeover was going through uh and strong scenes back then and you know you think back to the liverpool game in 2022 in august that's probably the last time it was this big i feel like the crowd size because we've had

sort of protest since that point but maybe this one was the one that really captured the imagination um and and so you know to steve's point there and carl's point where does this go so what do they want from this and i think all fans can understand the desire to show major dissatisfaction with where the clubs are and the fact that you know we've said it numerous times what the glazes have taken out the club in money you know over a billion pounds in terms of the cumulative net

interest on the debt, a billion pounds of debt. It's obviously scandalous what's happened. But where do you go from here? So I think that's probably the next step maybe to give us specific points as to what

is desired, clearly they want Glazers out so that perhaps points to Ratcliffe buying up the rest of their shares and then investing his own money into the club again but it's very hard to say exactly how you can pick your way through this because there's perhaps small wins to go along the way so you talk about ticket prices as well and we've obviously had the protest from Must and the fans of Ormond having the discussions with Jim Ratcliffe about the ticket prices and I think that's a key point at which then to take

take your reference from in terms of the current ownership scheme. So, yeah, but I thought it was a very powerful site today. I thought a lot of people, it was bigger than I thought it was going to be, to be honest. And I was in the Munich tunnel where there's, you know, green flares going up. You've got kids on the shoulders of their parents. So you've got that message sort of being spread. You could smell the flares in the tunnel before the game. I mean,

Personally, I like that smell. It reminds me of when I was at Porto here and it was 4-0 and there's a flare going up in the stands and obviously it used to happen back then. So I think that it was a very powerful message. And I think the point of these protests, you've got the kind of twin lobbying behind the scenes and then the very public show of dissatisfaction and anger really. And I think what that does is keeps what has happened to United in the public narrative so that that's...

that that does apply pressure and maybe applies pressure on something like sponsors, which I know does affect what the Glazers think of the club. And if they're then thinking, OK, maybe we're not going to pay as much for a sponsorship or we're a bit nervous about making a deal with United because of these protests, then that will have an impact on what they think about the club. So, yeah, I think really powerful image today. How much do you think people will listen, Andy? I mean, we've had continued protests since...

the Glazers first took over, certainly in recent times as well it feels like it's ramped up and it doesn't always feel like they've listened particularly, it doesn't feel like there's been much of a result from the protest but this is like Larry said probably the biggest protest has been in the last 12 months since Sir Jim Radcliffe has been a minority shareholder in the club. Do you think he will listen?

So who's listening? Is it the Glazers? So one of them was in the stadium and that's pretty rare. Ed Glazer. So he was here with his family and close friends and it can't be nice on a human level if you're hearing people singing about your own family. So do they do anything about that? History would suggest no, they're incredibly thick skinned but now you've got new decision makers.

and it is in their interest for there not to be protests all the time because it makes the club less attractive. Laurie touched on the attractiveness to sponsors for example and I know there are other factors such as sponsors want to be associated with a winning football team but fans know that this is a tough time. Some fans even accept that tough decisions needed to be made. There was a lot of fat surrounding Manchester United. The club could not carry on losing as much money as they have been doing but

but what happens in the future? What is the roadmap here? So I think communication could have been better from the decision makers. On what specific points? Well, we've not heard from some of the key people at Manchester United. Nobody has laid out beyond those first few meetings...

what the intentions are. We were told there was going to be one round of job cuts. There's now been two rounds of job cuts. I've heard criticism of the fact that no one came out to address the media or of the public, the fans, when those decisions were taken as well and it was left to the manager in the press conference to take the questions. Yeah, and that's

I have some sympathy for that being landed on a manager as to what they can say. One of my criticisms of the previous regime was that everything was on the manager. And I think a club of Manchester United's size should have more than one person speaking. Clearly the manager, Jim Ratcliffe. But I don't think it should only be Jim Ratcliffe. So when I spoke to him, I thought, wait a minute, you're saying that you're not making football decisions, but actually you're making lots of decisions here.

I think we should be hearing from other people. He tried. And then Manchester United lost 3-0 against Liverpool in September. So then if he...

There was definitely an early attempt. Just remind people of who was speaking and what the circumstances were, just in case they didn't hear you talk about it at the time. So Omar Barada and Dan Ashworth had a meeting with a number of journalists before Manchester United played Liverpool at Old Trafford in September. It was pre-faced that it was meant to be a conversation to explain the summer window in particular. This was also the conversation where Omar Barada said they have 100% full faith in Eriksen Haag.

Many things were mentioned. Dan Ashworth explained how his job fit in and what he thought the future of United transfer dealings would be as well. Now, they haven't done one since. Could that be because United lost 3-0? And then some of those quotes...

the quote about backing Eric Ten Hag looked very different when those quotes eventually came out because United lost 3-0 could it be because Dan Ashworth isn't here anymore and he might have been might be a good reason he might have been more willing to have that sort of conversation as well but they do need to have more communication if you look at if you look at German football clubs their relationship with the media is very very different it's very much if you're going to write about us we're going to talk to you because we want to make sure you get the facts correct

Whereas Manchester United historically, under the Glazer ownership, don't want to talk. And I think Ineos have made... Ineos' attempts to talk have not always gone down well because this is such a huge fan base that if you give any... And I feel this about anyone talking about... Nice. I feel this about not just the Ineos current situation, but also talking to Steve. I asked him, what happens next? And he said, well, we'll figure that out. And this popped my brain going...

shouldn't you know this or part of my brain is going shouldn't you tell Jim Radcliffe what you want and then see what his response is and it's this very you can call it a poker game you can call it whatever where you've got two sides there that ideally want to be working together but they're looking across from each other going what do you want and the other one goes I don't want to say it yet

I think fans want hope and there's just been this welter of bad news, bad news on and off the pitch. I think they want a vision to move forward as well, don't they? Because there's so much uncertainty and stability as well, right? There's no stability at the moment. How do you build for the future when you don't even know what the base is yet and the base keeps changing?

Well, when Dan Ashworth comes in and then he leaves, stuff like that is a big negative against their decision-making capabilities. Results do affect the mood, undoubtedly. Oh, of course. Even the performance today, right? Yeah. So if you've just won 10 on the bounce, you will see over-exaggerations on social media about the ability of the decision-makers. And the opposite, which has been the case this season, is

is also true. So we mock the idea of fan sentiment, but it is very real. You can almost say nothing when things are bad because people just want a dartboard to throw darts at and to get their frustration out of there. And I think Karl handles it really well. When Manchester United lose, he often puts on social media, just go for a walk because you've got all these really, really, really angry people and it can be irrational. And we love the passion that football fans bring, but it can have negatives as well.

It's difficult because the Glazers are this cloud over the football club. I think United fans have been patient on many levels with managers, but Manchester United shouldn't be 14th in the league. And fans want to know why is this happening? Why has the recruitment been so bad? There's a lack of trust and...

During COVID, the club actually did lots of really good things to win back the trust of supporters. I could think of 10 things off the top of my head now, from helping fans with travel to away fans, not furloughing staff, and they all cost the club money.

and now we're seeing the opposite of that because the club are saying we've got to save money everywhere and I get why that they have to save money everywhere but each of them tends to be a little negative because people lose out and people lose their jobs and they're bitter and they're angry because they've lost their job or

You've had other instances this season when all the Rangers fans were in the home section. It's just been negative after negative after negative. I think a better communication would be a good thing. But what can you say? Results? I put it to Ratcliffe. He said, if you start winning, everything changes. And he has a point there.

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OK, let's look forward then to Thursday. It's the biggest game of Manchester United's season so far, to be fair. The second leg of the Europa League tie in the last 16 against Real Sociedad. 1-1 from the first leg. Carl, finally poised or poised finally? I'm going to go for the latter. This one, I'm nervous about this one. Although, I'll tell you what, Old Trafford was properly rocking in that second half. A bit more of that, please. Yeah, absolutely. You can start the first half with the noise that...

We made, I'm going to call them we. Take Me Home, the country road song, right? We've talked about this and the attempt from the first team players to have that played up until kick-off. It's difficult in the Premier League because of some of the stipulations and so on, but that definitely helped at the start, didn't it, tonight? Yeah, there were loads of good factors into what was actually quite a turgid and boring first half. And then it woke up again in the second half. I think part of that is also because, I mean, I've said it two or three times, I do like playing Arsenal.

Everyone does. They do, don't they? And it goes back to what Amarin and Bruno Fernandes were saying after the Emirates and after Anfield that it's easy to get up for these sort of games. But Thursday, it's easy to get up for that as well, isn't it? That's a big occasion, right? Oh, for sure. I think the atmosphere will be good on Thursday. We spoke to Christian Eriksen after the game. The quotes are embargoed, but they might be out by the time you listen to this podcast. But the general gist about Thursday was that they know that this is a big game. They're not trying to

trying to downplay it as you know it's just another one to get through that they know the significance of this so i think that will feed into their how they start the game because they need to start quick i think just to kind of keep that energy going and yeah i mean if today i thought today was good like you know in terms of the atmosphere the sort of reciprocal nature of it all i agree with carl the fact that it was arsenal i think does eventually play into it their fans were sort of singing we want glazers in which obviously antagonized the home fans

There was actually a bit of aggro in the Munich tunnel before the game as well because that's where the visiting fans go in and there were still the kind of lingering protesters and there was a bit of chanting for Arsenal and then a bit of aggro. So, you know, I'm not endorsing that at all, but I do think that a bit of edge in the stand...

does occasionally feed into the pitch because then you've got hard tackles going in. There was a rhyme at one point, Old Trafford's falling down and Ruben Amarin's a clown, which I thought for them, not bad really. Yeah. I'm never going to take a lead off Arsenal when it comes to fan culture because I respect them as a football club, but not for now.

not the Vanco. What about North London forever? I mean it's one of the worst club anthems I've heard in my life it's absolutely atrocious and they are a great club my uncle Charlie's dream when he was a kid was playing for Arsenal not Manchester United where he ended up playing so it's long standing but no for Vanco I saw Laurie in the tunnel like being a proper newshound on the edge of all the action I saw his new trainers before a

before I saw him. Like two Belisha beacons on his feet and I'm like, whoa, it's Laurie there. I really didn't think this through, did I? My shoe attire. I was like having to properly, you know, get against the wall to kind of let people go through. It was a bit silver there, isn't it? They've actually survived quite well, to be fair. I heard the police commander going, yeah, there's a risk element just to the right, just to that fellow with the Belisha beacons on his feet.

So they've obviously made a mark today. Can I just also say thank you very much to everybody. I think Karl and Andy both had this. And it was a protest and that's the main focus. But people were being lovely to us, coming up to us, saying hello. We love the podcast. And so thanks to those guys that did that. There was an Irish dad and son that said hello to me, Pa and Ryan. So, yeah, thanks to those guys. Real Sociedad. Yes, please. All right. So I spoke to Rui Feria, Josie Mourinho's old assistant, who wrote UEFA's technical report the other night.

I found him very interesting analysing Manchester United and quite complimentary that for 70 minutes in San Sebastian, Manchester United's game plan worked, which was to sit deep, not to have possession because they figured that Real Sociedad are not scoring goals. Let's just forget the last 20 minutes because they came on really, really strong and players like Casemiro, while they played well, tired and

and there was a tiredness throughout that Manchester United team, and the crowd really got behind him for that last 20 minutes. But he praised the maturity of Casemiro and Bruno Fernandes in knowing that Real Sociedad play a high line, and Ruben Amorin said this before the game, he said they are brave, and they are. So they played this high line, and Manchester United knew there would be space behind that high line, so it was all about them two players getting balls out to the men on the right. And United actually had

were effective in doing this and the game plan was completely working United looked in control even without the ball so I think he called it right tactically they will have their best players it'll be Mendy back and he will have the ball because they

Manchester United will let them have the ball but I think I think Old Trafford's a bit more ready for that now though than before yeah I feel a lot better after the first leg and I feel a lot better after what we saw here today and it is a huge game it's probably the biggest game of the season I think it is yeah because if you win the Europa League we're all smiling and everyone's buzzing and if you go out and your season ends and the league's over I mean the the

The Premier League now, Liverpool have won it and the three teams are going down. It's a real damp squib. My concern, Carl, is that I didn't think Real Sociedad played particularly well in that first leg. And this is a brand new football match. Manchester United had their opportunity away in Spain to decide that tie pretty much and make this second leg nowhere near as important as it is on Thursday. And yes, today was better, but there is...

scars there from some of the performances at Old Trafford this season, isn't there? Absolutely, absolutely. I asked Amrin post-Arsenal whether or not he thought this team had a confidence problem. To my mind, when United score first, they get their tails up. They're pressing better, they're running in behind more, they're not taking four touches to control the ball, they can take two. And I said, well, how do you make your team start games in the same way they play throughout the second half? And Amrin explained that

about how you want to not be chasing the result and be in the situation. It's a very unusual football team. I mean, Andre Inanna spent the entire first half against Arsenal. Anytime he got a goal kick, the Arsenal fans going, "Oooh!" Because they're trying to rattle him. Right? There are players in this United lineup

who for better or worse are now rattleable I'm not even sure if that's a word trying to rattle a home player by a 3000 strong away support or whatever it is doesn't happen very often either but you do feel they add an effect they're trying to get on the players skin and when you are learning a new anything you're learning a new language you're learning a new skill those early bits where you're quite bad at it

They can discourage you from being really ambitious. You start, well, first time learning how to swim. You're like, oh God, my feet don't touch the ground anymore. I'm going to swim back. Whereas Amin's going, no, deep end, deep end, deep end, keep going. Push him in. Yeah, and I think that that's the big thing on Thursday is that you cannot get scared that your feet don't touch the ground because you've got to win. There's millions and millions on the line.

And that's just to get into the next round, let alone winning the whole tournament. You can't be scared. You have to be brave. Hoyland, please, put your foot through it. I need two shots per half, minimum.

Bring your shooting boots, Rasmus. I thought what was interesting as well, just on the lines about the goalkeeper was, Amrim was the one instructing a lot in the first half. Don't play it short, get it long. He was shouting into the middle, to Bruno mainly, to get the message back to Andre. No building up from the back, get it long. Which, against Arsenal...

is an interesting tactic because they are very adept at dealing with long balls, aren't they? They're probably one of the best teams in the league at being able to deal with that. But I think the idea of getting it away from the nervousness around the box, which he's talked about, the manager, the head coach, in the crowd as well as the team, to be fair,

I thought it was very interesting that that was his way early in the game to sort of remove some of those nerves when there was those moments where the Arsenal fans were trying to get on Andre Onana. Well, actually, I suppose in that regard, it was quite similar to the last time, the protest I mentioned in 22 Liverpool, because, you know, Ten Hag changed it there, didn't they? And he said, De Gea, kick it long, basically. So, you know, maybe there's something about protests and good performances against big teams. Don't treat the ball like a bomb, but don't dick around either.

If you go long, you can beat a line. Question, gentlemen. Do you start Rasmus Harden up front on Thursday? Yeah, you have to, don't you? Well, Chido's ineligible and I think you have to, don't you? Maybe you don't. I suppose Xerxe played quite well today. I thought you were going to say earlier, Rasmus, bring your flippers if he's diving in at the deep end because what an analogy that was from Carl. I think start him.

What were you going to say before? I forgot. Oh, right. I spent Friday with Teddy Sheringham. That's random. No, but I asked him about Rasmus Hoyland and he was incredibly complimentary, saying how good he thought he was, but he doesn't get the service that he needs. And I thought he had a relevant opinion over a player like that. Start him and if it's not happening after 60 minutes, make the change. But the manager will be seeing a lot more than we do.

in-game, but you've got to stretch and you've got to get behind that Real Sociedad back four because they're going to come high. But United have got really quick players to go beyond them. And if they go along with the long ball and if you don't win it, you can follow up with the second balls. So I'm pretty confident. In terms of players available, Karl, you were in the press conference.

Lenny Lloro went off at half-time. It looked like an ankle foot issue potentially for him. He was getting a lot of spray from the Manchester United physio team to try and get him through that first half. Bruno Fernandes as well looked like he maybe had a bit of an issue with his knee towards the end. Bruno Fernandes took a knock late on in the second half. In that way, Bruno Fernandes often does.

He looks like he's half dead at first and he stands up, limps around for a bit and then 30 seconds later he's running. I don't know how he does it. He did look sore though. Yeah. Lenny Yoro went down first 15 minutes in the first half, got a bit of treatment, came back on. Aaron said there's a problem with his foot and we'll have to see later on. And then he was asked any other players returning back and he offered a shrug. And Ugarte, he said, Ugarte, maybe, I don't know, in the true, I'm not telling you right now, am I?

No, there'll be another press conference, of course. If there's one thing Amarin doesn't want to talk too much about, it's whether or not players are coming back. Yeah, Ugarte was here. He walked through the interview area, actually, after the game with Lissandro Martinez on crutches.

Ahmad as well, who still had a protected boot on. But, yeah, Ugarte back feels like that would be a boost. Obviously, Harry Maguire, we don't know exactly the situation with him. I could list all the injured players, but I think they're maybe the only ones who've got a chance of featuring on Thursday. Harry Maguire from set pieces would actually be quite a crucial element to the team. De Ligt had a head of second half, didn't he, that was a good save from Ray, although...

fairly straightforward save, I suppose. But you're sort of thinking they're the kind of moments that they could...

you know, benefit from. I've remembered what I was going to say. That was it. So the point about the Arsenal game, kicking it long, a lot of United's chances actually came from them then winning the ball high. So like Casemiro, obviously pressure into the Hoyland chance. Garnaccio, I think, had like three successful tackles in the game. So a lot more aggression. So you sort of wonder, okay, it's going to be a bit different, isn't it, against Sociedad if they've got the higher line. But you feel maybe just go for it. Clearly, style is out the window really with this one. I think the result is absolutely all important. Yeah. Yeah.

And Casemiro on set pieces. There was a point where he was very frustrated. I think Deleuze had a shot ahead of him on target, but Casemiro's like, that was coming for me. De Ligt gets forward. Heaven, I'm not sure he will play. I doubt it from where we are now. But he was good in the air. Well,

We're looking at a sign that says Manchester is my heaven, by the way, Old Trafford, which maybe if he scores against Sociedad... It'll be Aiden is my heaven. It's not Sociedad. That doesn't mean anything. Sorry, sorry. We need to pick up Oli, producer Oli, in the title for the last podcast. We had a few comments about this. He put Sociedad in there. That's not the name. No, no, yeah. It's just not the name. So what is Sociedad? It means society in Spanish. Okay. It doesn't mean anything.

Not like City though? Like if I call them Man City? No, it's not. You can call them La Real or Real Sociedad or

Why do you say La Real but Real Sociedad? He's a man of all cultures, all people, all accents. That is fun, Carl. You just dug me out of the hole of a good question. Carl bought me chocolates today. Where's our chocolates? I'll give you some. What are they called? Reisen. I think they're German. I've gone off Maltesers and I mentioned him passing and he brought me a big bowl of them. They are just like...

sent to me from heaven yeah I thought you mentioned reasons on a previous podcast but they are new to you I'm into them they are my thing at the moment and if I have mentioned them it's because I'm banging to them they are class I basically drop I used to get them after every swimming session did you yeah good stuff if the fella who owns reasons is listening to this I don't know Ralph Rison whatever his name is send some our way please we like your product

Okay, I did not expect the end of this podcast to go this way, but we should know how.

Talk the devils can go sometimes when we're all together and we're a little bit giddy after a positive result. One thing I didn't point out earlier, which I think is a lovely start actually. We know about one aspect of this, but I think bringing it in this way is really good. So the Athletics' Will Jeans posted, Manchester United still haven't lost a league game at Old Trafford when they were winning at half-time in Ruben Amarin's lifetime. That's nice, isn't it?

It's very nice. When Bruno scored, I was very happy. And then someone pointing out the halftime record is on the line. I went, oh, oh, oh. Tell you what, if Declan Rice hadn't celebrated quite as long as he did, that might have been under more threat than it was. Old Trafford is a fortress. And when it is rocking in the way it was rocking today, great things are possible. So we do it again on Thursday through to the next round. And then hopefully by that time, Laurie will know not to call him a sussy then.

Okay, more of that on Thursday, please. But for the minute, Andy, thank you. You just passed me a chocolate chew. Kyle, thank you. Laurie, thank you as well. Thanks for listening along. And we'll be back after the match on Thursday against L'Oreal or Real Sociedad. See you then. Take care. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.