Rashford links. Mainoo/Garnacho panic, FA Cup defences begin
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Hey everyone, it's Robert Mace. The NFL playoffs are here, and we've got you covered on The Athletic Football Show. From wildcard weekend all the way through Super Bowl 59, my co-host Derek Claston and I will guide you through every game, matchup, and big-time performance on the way to one team lifting the Lombardi Trophy in New Orleans. Catch The Athletic Football Show wherever you listen to podcasts. The Athletic FC Podcast Network. Got Wi-Fi, huh? I'm buzzing.

This is Talk of the Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. We are back to preview the FA Cup ties for the men's and women's side as they both begin their bids to retain those trophies. There's obviously growing interest you will have seen in Marcus Rashford with the uncertainty continuing around his future and we'll also investigate reports that every United player is said to be available for transfer including the likes of Kobi Meynu and Alejandro Garnaccio which is of course fantastic.

understandably caused quite a stir this week. To do that, we're joined by Andy and Laurie. Charlotte will be joining us later on as well.

Laurie's at home, just your normal self, although he does have Wi-Fi in his new place excitedly for the first time. Andy, you're not at home. How far above sea level are you as you record this podcast? 1,600 metres. You're in a ski resort? Yeah, about 1,600 metres. Well, Kilimanjaro's 5,900. Okay. So you're a pop on the way up to the top. But one thing from...

Barcelona is in April you could ski and you could swim in the sea on the same day you could literally go to the beach in the morning and then two hours later you can do that so I've brought my daughters up just for one day and away we go sorted it with the fella it's

to record this podcast. I said, do you like football, mate? He went, no. But anyway, he's given me fast Wi-Fi and he's just given me the thumbs up. So away we go. The girls are eating the lunch. The dad is recording a podcast. It's just your normal mitten family day out, isn't it? There's loads to get into on this, Laurie. You've had a busy week already, to be fair to you, with all the transfer stuff that seems to be simmering for Manchester United at the moment.

Let's start with Marcus Rashford. Reports that he's held talks with AC Milan about a loan move. David Ornstein's reported the interest from Borussia Dortmund. There's been other clubs named now too. What's the latest on this?

I suppose the most concrete bit of information is that Marcus Rashford's brother, Dwayne Maynard, who represents him, is over in Italy, Milan, to hold talks, we believe, with AC. And I think there's a bit of interest in him from Serie A clubs. You've got Juventus there. And to me, people speaking around the situation feel that that would represent a plausible destination for him this month on loan because...

you've seen English players go over there before, Premier League players, obviously Scott McTominay scoring quite a few goals for Napoli, so Rashford firing and switched on, you feel like he could do some real damage there and that, from a United perspective, okay, it might make them look bad a little bit because he's going and scoring goals for another club, but,

I think from a value point of view, if they did feel like this was the end of the road for Marcus Rashford and he wanted to go, then you've increased the value there on a player who at the moment is not in the squad and not performing and his value is probably one of the lowest it's been because of that

clear issue around his playing time so yeah there's the Italian interest but yeah David Ornstein reported about Borussia Dortmund they've obviously seen what happened with Jadon Sancho last January that they brought him in you know it was a kind of a creative loan in the end because United actually got quite a bit of money out of Dortmund making it to the Champions League final they kind of had

inbuilt clauses in that for that reason and I think what it shows is that for all that Rashford has been out of the team and we know about the issues around that people are looking at the United situation thinking well maybe that's part of the problem you've had Jadon Sancho go away now he's playing for Chelsea and okay he's not tearing everything up but he's playing alright I mean the assist that he gave to Cole Palmer at Crystal Palace was brilliant so I think people are looking at that thinking okay well

We can maybe get more out of these players than United are. Obviously, the big issue is the wages. How much are these clubs prepared to subsidise one of United's top earners? Yeah, that is the question, wages. It was a question with Jadon Sancho, Andy, as well, to be fair. What do you think United would accept here for Rashford? Wages being paid. Manchester United have got some very tricky negotiations going on at the moment.

And you're not going to be seeing a repeat of Nani, for example, where Manchester United paid 75% of his wages, I think it was at the time. So if you look at Milan, huge club. It boxes it off if Marcus Rashford was to go there because he's like, I'm doing well at AC Milan, playing in the San Siro in front of 80,000 every week. But Milan need to improve. They're eighth. I went to watch them play against Inter in September and that was probably the high point of the season. It was a surprise win.

and they're struggling AC Milan should not be 8th in Serie A now we know this isn't a vintage Milan Dortmund similar set of circumstances I'm going to watch them in a few weeks against

Shakhtar, Donetsk. These are clubs financially below Manchester United's level who can catch these high-flying birds, get them... Players who had everything gone to plan would have been worth £50, £60, £70, £80, £90 million and get them for relatively cheaply. And everyone needs a striker, right? Now, if Manchester United can release some of the wages...

if Marcus Rashford can do well then his value goes up this was the plan with Anthony Martial when he went to Sevilla it didn't work out but it did work out with Jadon Sancho so United end up selling him to Chelsea 20 plus 5 dependent on achievements as they all are now so I could see it makes sense and the sounds out of the Rashford camp last week were yeah there's interest in Saudi and I've spoken to people in Saudi as well none of them confirmed that by the way but

but that would be seen as a step down. So going to Italy, AC Milan is a huge club. Going to La Liga, one of the top five leagues in Europe and doing well, you will be seen in a different light, like Scott McTominay is now. He's doing well there and absence does make the heart grow fonder. And your point about it being Manchester United's fault is a very valid one. All these players...

you know Anthony Martial's playing every week now in Greece Donny van der Beek's playing every week now in Spain it's not all on the players part of it has been on the culture of the club yeah I mean those two you've picked out in particular are playing at lesser teams but I understand the point that you're making certainly I mean Laurie if Rashford was to go which it seems actually in a few days it's looking a lot more likely that a deal can be struck during this January transfer window does that then give United the scope to bring someone in

I believe so. And yeah, I agree with you that my initial reaction to him potentially going in January and certainly people talking around it were not that optimistic or not that positive. I don't know what the right word is there because, you know, you don't...

It would be great if they could all solve the situation right and he could remain playing for United. But it feels like there's so much noise and chatter around it and interest that actually, OK, the plausibility is that he could go. There's a bit of competition almost, isn't there? Potentially. I've heard five or six clubs in the last two days really being linked across the media. Obviously, not all of them are going to be absolutely accurate, but that's certainly a lot more than it was at the start of last week, for instance. Yeah.

Well, it'd be interesting to see as well the Premier League interest, whether that's a likely outcome. Would United accept that, a loan to a Premier League club? I guess if they paid the most money, maybe, yeah, it would be a difficult one. And this is certainly something that in the regime of Ed Woodward, they were very reluctant to sanction loans or sales even to clubs they considered to be rivals. So that's going to be an interesting debate to be had.

Yeah, it does come down to money, I think, because ultimately that's why people are telling me there is no market because of the salary and who can afford a transfer fee and who can afford those wages. And Rashford would want compensating for a contract that he's signed and he's obligated to earn on. So yeah, that's why people were sort of

about a departure but I know just the noise around it does feel more you know sort of like there is a market there it's just exactly what price point and then United have got a decision to make and

And it depends on, yeah, as you say, if they can get good money in for him. Ruben Amarim will want him replacing. If he goes out, even though he's not in the squad, he will want him replacing. And that perhaps brings us on to Randall Kolomwani, who David Ornstein was reporting on earlier this week in terms of United having interest in him. One reason Manchester United want proper money, and someone told me from this at the club last year, is if they let someone go out cheap, then the inclination to play that player is,

is much less. So United have had situations where players have gone out on loan. I'm mad at Rangers, could be seen as one of them, and not had him playing. And if you play guys out on loan, you really want him playing because Marcus Rashford did really, really well at a Dortmund or at a Milan. Dortmund are in the Champions League, AC Milan are AC Milan. Then his stock goes up. And the perception of the player is often different with people who are not watching him every week. So,

Andrea, a friend of mine who is a Milan fan, is so excited about the prospect of Marcus Rashford joining. He messaged me yesterday. So there's that factor as well. And a change can be as good as a break in life, in football. Milan is a great city to live in.

and we've spoken about Marcus Rashford a thousand times on this podcast. De San Siro, in my opinion, is the best stadium in the world from the outside. The atmosphere is amazing. If you can spark that, that can ignite so much individually, collectively, including Manchester United fans going, well, he can't be that bad, can he? He's just scored against Lecce.

One point to make on AC Milan, my colleague James Horncastle tells me, is that they've got a player who plays on the left wing in Raphael. Yeah, Liao, yeah. A big player. So that's Rashford's preferred position. That's going to be interesting if they really do push ahead with this. Marcus, can you play on the right? Pretty sure there's been a story about that that someone has written in recent weeks. Yeah.

Right, if you think that's caused a stir, earlier on in the week there's been reports on The Athletic and in other places as well about Manchester United's position moving forward with the finances of the club and with their attitude to selling academy graduates. The headline that came out of it was that Cobby Maynew, Alejandro Garnaccio and others in fact, Rasmus Hoyland who's not an academy graduate but at different points has been seen as the future of the club.

that they would be available for transfer if the price was right. It's caused a massive stir, Laurie, this amongst Manchester United fans. There's lots of different aspects that we need to talk about. But fundamentally, what's the story here? Yeah, I think as you've outlined there, really, and I suppose it's a big if, isn't it? Because, well, have you got any bids for these players? What would you actually consider? Because I suppose...

you could say X player is available across the league. You know, I think I was talking to somebody and they were saying, well, you know, if somebody offered X,

120 million for Cole Palmer, would Chelsea have to consider that? But obviously that's one thing hypothetically posing a conundrum and then another thing, the kind of general feeling around something. So that's where this has come from. So this isn't they are being touted for sale. This is more the fact that Manchester United wouldn't rule out looking at bids for them if they arrived. Exactly that, really.

I suppose that's just a gear shift from prior to Ineos' arrival because these guys, Mainu and Garnaccio...

Okay, maybe initially when they broke through, there's a question mark over are they good enough? Is their application absolutely what it needs to be? I suppose in terms of Garnaccio, there's obviously been some teething problems. But I think both have now shown a level that fans are certainly excited about and managers, I would say, Eric Ten Hag has been very energised about and...

But then at the same time, what the hierarchy at the moment will be considering is that they have serious issues with finances, with PSR, and obviously academy players count as pure profit. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how it works, but the idea is that these guys were bought for nothing, so when you sell them in the books, you can whack it down and it just counts to a greater degree than obviously if you're having to take off any money

sort of lingering transfer fee that you paid for somebody. Their book value is zero. So anything that you get for them is pure profit. Whereas if you sign a player for 50 million pounds on a five-year contract, it'll be amortized that it's 10 million pounds a season. So basically, if you've got any of that contract left...

If it's two years, it's 20 million. If it's one year, it's 10 million. So basically, it's an easier way to get more wriggle room in bringing players in. You have done this before, Ian. Have you done some special podcasts on this or something? Have you been moonlighting for any other podcasts? Not on this particularly, but yeah, you might find me on the Athletic FC podcast this week talking about Marcus Rashford amongst other things.

You're not bored yet? No, I can't be, can I? I'm not allowed to be. No, it's fascinating. This makes me a bit angry in a way. I get it. I understand that the financial constraints at United are working under now are tight. I understand the situation, but the whole ethos of selling academy players...

Manchester City are a great example of someone who've used it over the years to sell academy players and be able to bring in money which they can then spend on improving the first team. That said, in recent times, there are good examples of how that's backfired a little bit maybe. Cole Palmer being the best example who probably would be in the Manchester City first team now given the way that their season has gone and given his progress that he's made at Chelsea since. Selling players like Willy Cambwala is one thing, isn't it, in the summer?

considering selling Kobi Mainu to improve the finances is a very different thing isn't it? Yeah my understanding is that no named players are being hawked around and some people who might have seen those headlines and thought that that was the case if we go back to April there was the same story anyone is for sale at the right price and you could say that right across football you know Messi wasn't for sale Neymar wasn't for sale except they were at the right price the

You use the word sad there or potentially concerned because of the youth players. I think things like the record that Manchester United have of having a youth academy graduate in every first team line-up for pushing 4,000 games. I'm really proud of that. Me too. It came close to breaking against City. Cobby Mayne was the only player in the squad. Yeah, and I think it would be really sad if that was broken. And not everyone...

Would agree with that, but that is my opinion. And it's one of the things that makes Manchester United special. Part of me was sad when Scott McTominay went. I know that Eric Ten Haag didn't want to sell Scott McTominay, but because of the reasons you explained, it was far more attractive to sell Scott McTominay. So, as I said earlier on in this pod, there are very difficult negotiations going on

with Manchester United with several players at the moment some of them getting done Ahmad is a player who they absolutely want to do

Harry Maguire is a player who Manchester United did last week. But you mentioned Ed Woodward earlier. A decade ago, Woodward was boasting to me that we can compete with anybody for money. What's happening now is because Manchester United were geared towards being a club with a wage bill of a top-end Champions League team and haven't come close to reaching that level on a consistent basis...

the cutbacks are inevitable. They're not the budget's fault. With the financial fair play rules, that means there are cuts everywhere and they're painful cuts. They're cuts to staff, they're cuts to play negotiations and you see headlines like this. My understanding is that Kobi Mainu has been happy at Manchester United, happy with his progress. I see his dad at matches, dad's a big supporter of him.

From their perspective, they're going to want to negotiate competitive contracts as well. And this is a bit where I do have some sympathy with the club. If Manchester United have made mistakes, it's giving huge contracts to players who haven't won anything. And at the time, the fans are like...

Give them what they ask for. Break the bank. Oh, yeah? And who's paying for that? You're paying for that. That is your money that he's paying for that. And so I think there's got to be a bit of balance on both sides. You've seen a peaking of television revenues. You've seen this line going up of player wages for 25, 30 years now. That's probably going to be coming down a little bit. And I hope that Manchester United don't be seen as a soft touch.

that you can go there for a final payday. Because there's been times when Real Madrid players have thought, yep, we're not quite at the level we were at the Bernabeu, but we know we can go to Man United and get a wage increase. But I saw them headlines the other day and I was sceptical. Yeah, Laurie, we've had so much...

on this comments to pieces emails comments to the last podcast Carl's done a piece with Liam Tharm which is up on The Athletic about how Cobby Mayne who in particular fits into the future of Manchester United Thomas in the comments to that piece said if nothing has an emotional value and everything can be bought and sold under the unfazed hard cold glare of the businessmen then we as fans arrive at a place

called What is the Point? We identify to our football clubs in a way that Radcliffe and co can never seem to understand it seems. I'm not even sure if he's a Manchester United fan with how he's termed that. Robbie, not Cobby, says, it can't be right that meeting financial targets stroke PSR means selling academy products. If anything, it should be incentivised to keep them and play them regularly as Manchester United play.

has always done. Richard as well suggesting that this story has undermined some of the positivity from the draw at Anfield. It's definitely an emotive topic there's no question about that.

Yeah, very eloquently put by the listeners there as well. And we got a similar response. I've had one in, I've done a Q&A this afternoon and a lot of the questions are about this. And I agree wholeheartedly. I think that maybe we do have rose-tinted spectacles when we think about United and the academy, but I think it's genuine. You know, I think the fact that you've got these

consistent peaks of players coming through from the academy. You've got that affinity with them and obviously the Class of 92 being the biggest example when they go and win everything at the club and what a special story that is. The quality is genuine as well when you've got an FA Cup final against your biggest rivals and two academy graduates scoring that game. That is unique to Manchester United. That is something to be proud of. That is something that fans have been able to cling on to throughout some of the years of disappointment as well.

And if you want to make it about a value, then does that not add certain value to, you know, a kind of priceless kind of value to your club, you know, this kind of special heritage? I mean, obviously, you

I wonder what Ruben Amarin's exact thoughts on this are because would United even be considering it if he was absolutely certain that these are guys that he wants to continue with in his team? Do you not think he is? Well, that's the question that I pose. That's the doubt that I have maybe because when you look at Garnaccio, obviously he dropped him out of the squad for the City game. He hasn't started since. I know he's come on in all the games and that's fair. A manager's allowed to

kind of push his play you know, Eriksen Haag did it with Garnaccio when he was first breaking through he comes on and assists for Ahmad you know, brilliant goal at Anfield so you wonder if that's going to you know, eventually come to a fruitful sort of relationship but yeah

it just leaves a question, doesn't it? Like if you've got a head coach who's come in and he's told you actually can't sign any players because we've got no money because the Glazers have landed the club in so much debt for their leverage buyout and we've made really bad transfers in the years since Alex Ferguson retired, then he's going to be like, well, okay, where can I get value from my squad? And okay, these two players are clearly the most valuable, you'd say, from a United perspective. They've got contracts that run, you know, sort of three or so years so that's kind of protected in that regard. And yeah,

and Kobi Mainu is another one where he's not he didn't start at Newcastle for example he started Casimir and Christian Eriksen in centre midfield which we're kind of scratching our heads about he puts him on he plays well you know and they kind of steady the ship a bit and then he plays well at Anfield and you wonder to Andy's point you know has Mainu kind of won him over there but they're the kind of questions that will inevitably become inevitably come if the

these players aren't starring week in week out okay well maybe if there is value in other clubs think highly of them and we look at main i think he finished third did he in like the kind of european ballon d'or for for youth players so clearly you know he started a euro final at the age of 19 uh for england it's it's incredible what he's done so far and yeah there's going to be sort of troughs as well as peaks but i think certainly he is someone who's come from you know being at the

academy for years from a very young boy you know four five six and and so I feel like he especially you know United fans would want to protect

I mean, it feels in some ways like selling academy graduates to balance the books is just your sort of easy way out of correcting some of your mistakes, which is maybe the wrong way to go about it. But Ben on email makes an interesting point. He says, I was wondering, with United having such an awful season and very likely to finish outside the European places, why bother complying with PSR? I'd rather lose a few points this season than lose Cobby. Yeah, Cobby's stock's very high at the moment. FA Cup final last season,

The local boy, the United fan, as you said, he's been at the club for so long. You can understand why he's very popular with United fans. But I think I made a point on this podcast shortly after Ruben Amarin came in saying that Cobby needed to win his manager over. And I stood by my source on that at the time. When he plays as he did at Anfield, you're absolutely going to win your manager over. Cobby was...

extremely highly rated by Eric Ten Hag, helped a lot by Casimiro. There was an exchange in training where Casimiro went to Eric Ten Hag and said, this lad has got it. This lad is, you know, push him up, push him up. And had he not been injured in Houston at the start of last season, he would have played an awful lot more. We've seen he can do it. We've seen he can do those wonderful moments. Laurie and I were at Wolves last February.

He's got it all. Is he the next Lionel Messi? No, he's still got loads to do. He's a young player, he's going to make mistakes, he's going to dip in and out of form. His personality and his professionalism has always been praised to me. But someone also said to me, that's fine at one level. Once you're in the first team, once you hit big money, once your life changes, you can't go to the Trafford Centre because you're getting mivered, because you're getting recognised all the time.

for you then be able to keep your feet on the ground and continue to prosper as a professional, that is also another challenge. And we've seen it with other players. We've seen really talented homegrown players at Manchester United, supremely talented ones, not spend their entire careers at Manchester United.

for a multiple of reasons. Whether that is Jesse Lingard, that is Ravel Morrison, that is Mason Greenwood. Some reasons are far more serious than others. And you get others who go to a certain point and then they leave. Nicky Butt was a really good Manchester United player, but wanted to play more than he was playing and felt that he was better than the likes of Cleverson who'd been brought in. Disagreement with the manager. He moves on. Cobby's in a good place now.

Equally Manchester United have got financial pressures which they've not had for most of the last 30 years. I wouldn't like to see him go. I don't think any United fan would like to see him go. And I have no evidence whatsoever that Manchester United are trying to push him out or cash in on him.

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I'm sure there'll be more on the transfer window as January progresses, but let's talk about something completely different. It's FA Cup third round weekend for the men's team this weekend. There's a trip to Arsenal, which we'll preview in a moment. The women also begin their FA Cup title defence against West Brom in the fourth round of the competition as well.

But this weekend marks 25 years since Manchester United pulled out of the FA Cup. This is back in 2000, the season after the 1999 treble-winning campaign.

and they were invited to play in a tournament called the Club World Championship. Older listeners will definitely know all about it. Younger listeners might have needed Jack Lang's piece this week to explain exactly what this tournament was and understand some of the controversy around it as well. Andy, I know you were there. I know you enjoyed your time in Brazil. I'll talk to you about that in a moment.

But Laurie, why was this so controversial? Why did United have to pull out of the competition? Yes, it was all about the 2006 World Cup bid, really, because you had England and Germany vying for it at this point. They were both appealing to FIFA, you know, making campaigns. And the perception was that going to the Club World Cup would help England's bid, you know, Manchester United winning the Champions League, Bayern Munich being runners-up, and they would have gone if United had pulled out of that. So it was...

became a sort of clear battleground really in this sort of bid for the 2006 World Cup. I think Ferguson, nobody at United wanted to pull out the FA Cup but the prospect of them actually being able to field a team in both competitions was not possible. It would have had to be a youth team going in the FA Cup third round and that was something that Ferguson felt would not be very good for their development, you know, obviously detrimental to their development quite, quite, quite

firmer than that actually you know were United trying to get a bye to the next round I don't know but it certainly feels like it was a speaking to people when we did the kind of 20th anniversary piece a few years ago now there was pressure exerted on United to go there you know I spoke to David Davis who was chairman of the FA at the time who

you know, clearly made the point to United that they needed to go because it would enhance England's World Cup bid. And, you know, I think on reflection, would Ferguson do the same thing again? I don't think so. And particularly when you actually look at what happened with that World Cup bid, Germany won anyway with, you know, England...

very frustrated and making accusations of all kinds against FIFA, which of course would never be the case in terms of corruption or votes for bids or whatever. So yeah, it's a fascinating story though, because actually going over there, and I'm sure we'll get into it with Andy who was over there, but yeah, there's some great stories from the players and the coaches that went over there. Yeah, there certainly is. Andy, before we do that, the

It's sort of peak ABU time this isn't it? Anyone but United. The front page of a tabloid newspaper sums it up really where you've got this bizarre moral panic of it girls, war veterans, even the Prime Minister at the time Tony Blair all giving their opinion on why it was an outrage that United weren't appearing in the FA Cup. What are your memories of all the sort of controversy around it at the time?

wanting United to stay in the FA Cup. A few weeks before it happened, Manchester United went to Tokyo and beat Palmeiras, a Brazilian team, to be crowned world champions in inverted commas, except that was the champions of South America against the champions of Europe. So it needed a...

a true world club competition which still exists to this day which is very highly respected in South America far more than in the UK I don't like British attitudes to it actually I don't like the way that British people look down on it because I know how seriously it's taken in other parts of the world this is because of a 10 day holiday you had on the Copacabana in January 2000 isn't it that

That's why you think it's wrong to be snared at. So obviously, if Manchester United play in Rome or Mandalay or Rio, it is my duty to be there supporting my team. It wasn't 10 days. It was more like 20 days. So Rio de Janeiro, high summer. The beaches are absolutely packed. You're going to watch Man United in the Maracanã. I've never felt as ugly in my life as walking onto one of those beaches. We look like proper gringos.

We went into the Maracana. The noise that Vasco da Gama fans made when they played Manchester United. It's the most beautiful noise I've ever heard in a football ground. 50,000, 60,000 of them. And there were 300 of us. And we're like, we've got to do our best here. It's 300 of us against them. Come on, get behind them. Why aren't you singing? Proper try to steer it up. 300 against 60,000. Come on, we're Man United. We won the treble last year. We can win this.

Problem was the conditions favoured the local teams. The grass on the pitch was really long. It was really, really hot. Manchester United really botched up the PR over there. Just were seen to be arrogant, aloof. You had Real Madrid who were, you know, they're not a little village team. The Real Madrid, they were going into the favelas. So because the players were being 10 men, it was down to us fans to be the ambassadors. We went into the favelas. We went to the Samba schools. Never...

felt as a shame to try and dance have you ever been to a samba school got all you got a thousand Brazilians moving around beautifully I've seen you dance as well and just looking like an absolute tool we met the ultras of Flamengo who supported Man United because they didn't want Vasco to win there were teams there from Sao Paulo Corinthians who won it

So we ended up going to the final, me and my mate, and standing with the Corinthian fans. Just the noise in the American art, the ground is moving up and down. Rio's a rough city. It's probably the most beautiful city in the world, in my opinion, until humans started messing with it. And you've got to watch your back there. But there's such an energy about the place. It's a big, big football city. People

people still talk about it now the players well they were up to all sorts they went paragliding without permission we walked into this massive nightclub we saw Martin Edwards there he was United's chairman and we saw

And we'd be thinking like he'd be hiding away because we knew him. He looked at us and went, this is fantastic, lads, isn't it? And it was that kind. It was cheap because it's Brazil. The pound was really strong at the time. It actually worked in so much as Manchester United went back to England and started winning.

and won the league again because there had been a lot of hiccups until that point but it was top the football was the worst part of it Gary Neville's confidence was whacked and he's only told me this in the last year for the first time he said he felt on the eve of the millennium he'd never been as confident in his life as a footballer as a human and a series of setbacks a relationship ending what happened in Rio it whacked his confidence and

And probably didn't help that Paul Scholes was text messaging him. That's what it was at the time. Fiasco de Gamma, Gaz. And he's like... F-off. F-off. Can't swear. You sat next to your daughters. I know, I know. I've met Vasco de Gamma fans maybe five times in the last 25 years and said, can you remind me of this song?

And once in Albert Square in Manchester, someone went, ah, it's this one. Oh, yes. Yeah. Life is now complete. The circle of life is complete. Seeing United playing the American, ah. There's a proper collection of United fans over there, by the way. The type of people who can go to Rio.

for two or three weeks in January, you know, not the conventional types. And you'd be getting stories going, all the Salford lads around there on the corner, so-and-so from Earlham's down there, what's he doing coming to Rio? They're all here. And then I met a fella called Pubby, who you met last year, Laurie. He did all the T-shirts. I met him up Sugarloaf Mountain. This is my final bit of the story.

And he bought like the worst memorabilia you could buy in Rio. Like, you know when you go somewhere and the shop's selling absolute tat? Like, you know, Velcro cartoons. And Puppy was buying them. I'm like, what are you doing? He said, everywhere I go in Man United, and he goes around the world,

I buy the worst thing I can find and I give it to my mum because everywhere people go, they buy the best thing they can find. So I buy the worst thing. I said, my mum absolutely loves whatever I bring back. A Velcro shawl from Rio with a picture of Christ the Redeemer. And one other thing, which doesn't cast Sir Alex Ferguson in the best light,

One of Manchester United's most loyal fans went up to see Christ the Redeemer, the famous statue. And this lad's well known among the fan base. Fergie thought he was a tabloid journalist and started having a go at him.

really aggressively, don't you follow my players. I'm like, I'm not. I'm a Man United fan. I'm going to the top of the statue. And Fergie was really out of order there. So we love him for many reasons, but he was capable of doing stuff like that in the name of protecting his players. But he was bang out of order that day. As he was for...

That team against South Melbourne. We went to the South Melbourne Hotel. Do you know who the manager was? 34 years old. I know. Go on. I know. Go on. Ange Postacoglu. I can tell you two both read The Running Order. I actually didn't. That was the point, yeah. You never read The Running Order. They're a pair of you. There's more chance of Laurie reading my book. I thought he'd read it in that book. That ain't happening. And finally, finally, right, we went to the FIFA Hotel. Me and my mate Juan Pablo. And people know who he is.

at the match and we knew that FIFA were there and we're like who's the main man here Michel Platini he ran world football he was the most important person in world football so my mate went I'll go and ask him for an interview for United We Stand he was involved in Red Issue which was the other Man United fanzines as well as Red News

And we basically just went up to Michel Platini and went, can you give us an interview for our fanzine? And he went, yeah, no problem. So we went back the next day and we had an hour with Platini for United We Stand, which was a massive scoop. These days, there'd be so many PR around him, you know, what you can ask him about. And we were having a go at him about, you know,

playing at Old Trafford for Juventus and stuff like that. So I've got really happy memories. Finally, finally, finally. There's more. As we went to the airport on our last day, we got a phone call from the airline saying, your flight's been delayed 24 hours. You're going to have to stay in this upmarket hotel with all the air stewardesses from your flight. And me and my mates are rubbing our fingers. We're in Rio, all these gorgeous air stewardesses. The truth is we didn't speak to one of them, but we did get another night in Rio.

That was like when you pull a drawstring back on a toy and it just keeps going and going and going and going and going. There's about five different points. I was like, oh, I'll interject there. And I was like, I know Andy's still on a tear here. Shows how much fun you had. Yeah, it's obviously a fantastic memory. I mean, Andy did mention within that how bad it was on the pitch. Gary,

Gary Neville's basically called it the worst two minutes of his career when he gifted two goals to Romario in a 3-1 defeat to Vasco da Gama. He wasn't even the most embarrassed player after a Vasco goal that day. Go and have a look on YouTube to what Edmundo did to Mikel Silvestre for the third goal. Beckham got a red card in a one-all draw with the Mexican side Nkaksa and the group stage was rounded off with a 2-0 win over Ange Postacoglu, South Melbourne. Jack Lang's piece is on The Athletic as well if you want to know any more about

And there was actually some detail in that that Andy didn't mention in that amazing answer. Great memories. OK, before we look ahead then to the FA Cup weekend, have a look in the show description. Laurie mentioned a piece that he wrote five years ago for the 20th anniversary. There's detail on there exactly who was paragliding out of the Manchester United squad. So go and have a read of that.

Let's talk about these two games then. Arsenal away for the men's team on Sunday in the FA Cup third round. West Brom at home for the women's side on Saturday in the FA Cup fourth round. Charlotte Harper's joined us to do this. Charlotte, thank you for coming on Talk The Devils. Always lovely to have you here. What sort of shape are the women in ahead of their game against West Brom? I think they're in good shape. United have been flying under the radar in the league. One point off second overall.

So going into that pretty steady, I think, should be, you never want to say comfortable, but on paper, you know, this should be a very convincing victory, given the disparity between the two sides. And yeah, I think it's been quite quiet from a women's team perspective. Is that a good thing, considering the way the year's been? No news is good news, is that what they say? Maybe, yeah. I think they're quite enjoying that out of the spotlight and for once...

From my perspective, covering the men's game more, you just see how many eyes are on the men's team. And there is, maybe we'll come on to this regarding Ineos and Dan Ashworth, but there is a lack of scrutiny around the women's team. And so they're quite happy to just be doing their own thing and...

tick along without anybody snooping around. Yeah, like you said, it should be a win easily, to be honest, this weekend. West Brom are eighth in the National League North, which I think I'm right in saying is the third tier of the women's game. So yeah, you'd expect that to be a Manchester United victory. And they finished 2024 in great form as well, didn't they? Great goal-scoring form.

especially in the final sort of two or three matches. Grace Clinton, though, as well, has been the one player so far this season, Charlotte, who just seems to be the undoubted star of the campaign, put simply. Yeah, she's very graceful, really a pleasure to watch. And those who had followed Spurs knew that she was the one that pulled the strings and is really kind of that heartbeat of the Manchester United team that makes things tick.

Interesting regarding Serena Wiegmann's comments when she was playing for England that she needs more consistency. She needs to focus on the bigger picture around her rather than just her individual efforts. So definite things to improve on, especially, you know, looking ahead to Euro 2025 for Grace. But she will be a key, key player for the next six months or so.

a standout for Manchester United and as we've been recording news just come in that Manchester United have triggered her one year extension option in her contract so that means she stays until at least 2026 which is great news for the club to

have such a talent on their books for at least another season. Hi Charlotte, after the West Brom game, there's two games against Manchester City, how important have they seen us being? One of them's in the League Cup if I'm not mistaken. Massive, it's so, so big, this Manchester derby, you know, the rivalry transcends into the women's game, although Manchester

I'm going to do a piece on this. There are, interestingly, Manchester United men supporters who actually support Man City women because Man City were formed before Manchester United women. That's a bit of a side note, but it's really interesting, that rivalry. Bizarre, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, that's cool. What, what, what? They're called purples in my book, if you read them, you're blue. So they support Man United men, but Man City women. Correct. Yeah.

I've never heard. Wow. Right up your street, Andy. We did have an article about 15 years ago about this purple. He wanted to be anonymous. He basically followed United and City. He watched one at home one week and one at home the next week. Such was the stigma attached to it. Couldn't put his name to it. Yeah, this is again a different quirk to the women's game that they're actually quite happy to do that. And especially like off the back of the Euros, City women having so many England players, um,

Well, you know, the same could be said for United women with Erps as well and Toon. But coming back to your question, Andy, yeah, huge game. City are struggling with injury. So, you know, a good time to play them where you're playing each other three days in separate competitions. So, you know, that could be...

Could go either way, right? Yeah, it's always intense when you've got two matches in quick succession against the same side. I mentioned before about the year that the women's side have had. Obviously, there was the blow, as you've written about, of losing Dan Ashworth, who seemed to be a huge advocate of the Manchester United women's team during his short spell at the club. But,

You did a piece just before Christmas about the impact of a year of INEOS on this certain side of the team. I mean, how do you sum up really what was in that article? Because it was a very revealing read. I think from the outside, and Laurie knows this, you're always trying to connect the dots, right? You're getting pieces of information. You're trying to build the jigsaw piece. And then I spoke to INEOS and I said, you know, well, what has the impact been? And they said...

well, to be honest, quite limited. I was like, all right, so you've got this ambition that Omar Barada has set out for the men's and women's team, as Laurie reported, win a title by 2028. Spell out on the stairs, as I read in your article. Yeah, so basically, as you go up, we visited Carrington, another...

Good aspects from the women's team that they invited media in to go round these portable cabins, which are, I can confirm, you know, sturdy, high quality. They've got space to do what they need to do. And you go up the stairs to the women's offices and there are steps of their progress on one flight of stairs each.

And then you turn the corner and on the other flight of stairs, there are kind of eight empty steps. And the top golden step is win the title by 2028. And then you look out and there's the big picture of the team winning the FA Cup last season. And so I said to Ineos, like, you've got this, you know, massive goal. It's a really exciting prospect, but what's the strategy? And they're like, well, we're not going to lie to you. There isn't one.

And so we got that sense from the outside, but someone, and I kind of respect them to be so candid and say, yeah, again, as in line with Sajan Ratcliffe's comments, priority on the men's team. We haven't really looked at the women's team. It's all TBC. And there it is in kind of plain writing that,

The women's team are, I would say at this stage, despite Dan Ashworth's attempt to make it more of a one club mentality and link together, they are still separate and nobody's really looking from an INEOS perspective about how they're getting on or a long-term plan. Mark Skinner any more popular?

Again, United flying underneath the radar. The league table is looking promising on level, on points with Arsenal. He's had quite a bit to deal with, to be fair to him as well. Yeah, and I think, you know, it's not Mark Skinner's fault that Sir Jim Ratcliffe is saying men's team is a priority, haven't focused on the women's team.

You know, he's between a rock and a hard place. You're not going to call out your employer who is basically having your job on the line.

But I don't think players who have left have necessarily spoken positively at all about their experience. Irene Guerrero, who left in the summer, reported that she'd been crying in the changing room. Of course, players who don't get minutes or regular game time have a different aspect and point of view. And I think regarding his communication in the media, people...

are left thinking, you know, what substance or what key points are you really trying to get out here? There is a section of the fan base that are extremely unhappy with Mark Skinner and it is crunch time for him. He's entering the last six months of his contract when, again, United in a TBC kind of way said, yep, we'll give you a year extension just to kind of... It's like...

You're just over there. You're just a bit of a burden at the moment. We'll deal with you when, you know, when we get to it. And it's all very piecemeal at the moment.

OK, well let's see if another run in the FA Cup can bring the women's side to the top agenda of the club again. Obviously the men also are in action this weekend away at Arsenal. Laurie, how much of an opportunity do you think it is for the team to build on what they achieved at Anfield? Yeah, it's huge and obviously that's what

Ruben Amarin and Bruno Fernandes were saying after the game that they can't then take their eye off the ball because away at Anfield, the pressure was on them. The eyes of the nation certainly felt like they were expecting United to lose, so prove a point. Now away at Arsenal, the jeopardy is still there with Arsenal being high in the league and United having a poor record there in recent years.

losing 2-0 at home to Newcastle in the Carabao Cup was interesting for Arsenal. I think they were a bit unlucky with chances and Newcastle were pretty clinical. But that being said, I think if United can go there and win, I think it'd be a really huge result and confidence booster for Amre and for the players overall.

and you know that would then hopefully set them up for a you know a good run from here if they then go back the other way and they don't perform and they kind of don't show that kind of commitment that they had at Anfield then the questions will start again so yeah it does feel like an important game and I do wonder exactly what kind of team he'll pick because I wondered after the City result obviously they went to Spurs after that didn't they and he changed it up and

It was against a Spurs side that themselves had injury problems and it wasn't at full strength and they ended up losing 4-3 in a game that you felt like they could have won, given the way Spurs crumbled after being 3-0 up. So I wonder if he really should... It's a weak gap as well. It's not like it's a midweek game. So you feel like pick your strongest team, go and try and win the game and that can really have...

a pivotal benefit for the team and the squad. Andy, like Laurie mentioned there, it's a different Arsenal side to maybe the one that United faced in the Premier League at the start of December. The form not quite as good. Nobukayo Saka, of course, the key man who's injured at the moment. And United do have happy memories of playing at the Emirates in the FA Cup as well. The last time they did that in this competition, it was a 3-1 win in January 2019. There's still pictures of Jesse Lingard

celebrating he might still be celebrating over in South Korea it was one of the best moments of his Manchester United career so there is some positivity and reason for optimism ahead of Sunday

I agree with everything Laurie says, which is not really great for a podcast, is it? Because you're supposed to disagree with each other. Well, you can agree, but add to it. It's a huge game. Yeah, that's fine. I want them to go out of the FA Cup. Right. Well, I don't because it was a highlight of our season last year. I was gutted with the draw because they're really good and Manchester United have not been really good this year. To get through this would absolutely lift again.

The mood after what happened at Anfield, he's got to go strong. He's had a full week to prepare for it. The FA Cup, I'm sure Ruben Amarin knows this, is really important in the history of Manchester United. There were actually patches in that match at the start of December where Manchester United played quite well.

but then when Arsenal, it was them goals from the corners, surely you've got to be learning from those mistakes. 19, top night, it was a night match, there's a bigger way following.

because you get a bigger allocation in the FA Cup. But there's been some bad times as well, Ian. I remember 1988, FA Cup fifth round, Brian McClare hit a penalty, 17,000 travelling fans in the clock end. And that penalty only just landed last week in Papua New Guinea. It went miles, miles over. And if you're listening to this, McClare, because I know that you will be, where's our apology for that penalty? LAUGHTER

I feel like you've spoke to him about that on a stage in Ireland at some point in the last few months, to be fair. I'm sure you brought it up. Charlotte, you wrote a piece a few weeks ago when you were covering the men's team about the system for Ruben Amorim and about...

You know exactly how he goes about instilling this new way of playing, the short-term harm that was likely to do, which obviously has been borne out in results lately. But having a clear week help go into Liverpool, having a clear week again heading to Arsenal in the FA Cup can only be a good thing. And time on the training pitch is the only way this gets better for him, isn't it?

That was the piece about leaks, wasn't it? That too. The drip, drip, drip of Old Trafford Stadium and how you patch up your roof. It's Anfield now that's raining, it's fine. They launched an investigation, Liverpool, into that. They really took it seriously. What are United doing? Yeah. I actually really respected Amarim's response saying, I don't want to use time on the training as a reason that we played better.

Because people say, oh, you know, they've had two days on the training pitch. That's, you know, magic away all their problems. And the fact that he went out and said, you know, we need this attitude, we need this level of intensity. And that hasn't just come because of time on the pitch.

Having said that, of course, having your players all available because they're not resting from game time is going to add to that. And just it's like anything. It's a new skill that you have to reinforce by repetition. And you can still see that in terms of Amarim coaching on the side. It's very much like.

thinking before playing rather than those instinctive connections and automatic responses between the players but

I wonder, and I'm going to throw this to Laurie regarding team set-up, the first time that he's had that back five again consistently against Liverpool, whether that was just a testing out period in the first couple of weeks and then he set 2025, right from now on, I'm going to have a bit more consistency now that I know the players that I'm working with. Against Arsenal, when they last played, you had Malasia, Mount and Garnaccio starting.

which seems a bit of a world away, like mentioning Malasia and Mount in the same phrase as Ruben Alba and Rims' team. I mean, I think Mount would still be certainly in the first team picture if he was fit. Malasia, I just feel like after he's come back from his injuries, just not at the level required. So, yeah, I wonder what happens with him. Garnaccio, yes, we touched on the different reasons maybe around that one. But, yeah, I think you're right, Charlotte, in the back five against Liverpool felt like it was the obvious one because it was kind of the most secure position.

But actually, in practice, it was pretty aggressive. Obviously, Dalot really got after Trent. I wonder if he's able to do that against perhaps a more defensively savvy or a more, I don't know, a team that feels able to hit back against the back three. I think Aaron's system really did cause Liverpool problems in that game and show maybe that Dalot and Masraoui can be offensive in certain aspects of their game. I wonder if Lenny Yoro comes in. That's maybe my only question. For delete.

Yeah, possibly. I mean, De Ligt got booked in that game, didn't he? And I'm not saying that then rules him out of the FA Cup, but it looked like he was trying very hard and you wonder what that's taken out of him. And Joroh came on and the speed of him just really clearly showed itself. And obviously that tackle on Nuno's was...

incredible really so I wonder if he starts this game Amarin's treated him pretty carefully hasn't he up to this point I think the injury he's been mindful about but whether this is a chance to start him in a pretty big game I wonder that could be the one to change Yeah it'll be interesting as well to see what happens next because after Arsenal like Sam's pointed out on Spotify the rest of January looks like potentially a good time to build momentum Southampton at home Brighton at home Rangers at home Fulham away

Stalbukarest, whatever they're called now, which we'll do a podcast on, I'm sure, nearer the time. FCSB away as well. So it's a better run than United have had in recent times. And it needs to be better, of course, for everyone connected with the club. Just before we finish, Charlotte, a quick word, which I missed out when we were talking about the women's side earlier. You've written about Hayley Ladd being sold to Everton, Emmy Watson going on loan there as well.

How do you see January playing out for the women's side and how do you see the rest of the season playing out for them quickly as well? Yeah, regarding January transfer window, I'm not expecting a lot at all. I think it will be quiet for United, as it will be for the rest of the league, to be honest. But they've got no long-term injuries whatsoever.

a pretty big squad. They recruited six in the summer. Ladd left because she wanted more game time, simply. Wales have qualified for their first major tournament this summer and United aren't desperate to replace her. And if they do, it needs to add quality to the team rather than just for the sake of that.

And clubs are cutting costs and that affects the women's team as well. They've got to be savvy. If they're going to sell players, then...

Again, it takes time and effort to replace them and make sure their quality is topped up. I think the one space that they need to strengthen is in the goalkeeping area. So competition for places with Fallon, Tullis-Joyce. But apart from that, I don't expect any big news coming from Manchester United transfer players.

Their defence has looked very secure in front of goal. It's a big improvement for last year. And in contrast to last year, they need to score more and they know that. So there'll be more expectation on those attacking and wide players. But it's a big month ahead. City, Brighton, Spurs, one point off second. They have to maintain...

that good run of form and in previous seasons they have not slipped up but you know tailed off a bit tailed off exactly from February onwards yeah okay game on then for the women's side that's it then for Talk of the Devils thank you Laurie thank you Andy thank you Charlotte for coming on as well if you've got any thoughts any questions for us devilspod at theathletic.com and we'll be back after Arsenal thanks for listening take care bye bye The Athletic FC Podcast Network

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