Rashford seeking 'new challenge' as Utd exit EFL Cup
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This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. Here we are gathered around our computers again.

at nearly half past ten on a Thursday evening. It's not Europa League action, it's League Cup action, but there won't be any more this season after United have exited the competition following a crazy quarter-final with Spurs. We'll get into all the details on that. There was no Marcus Rashford again after stating his desire to leave earlier this week. We'll talk about that too. And there's still Bournemouth to come before Crimbo. We might have a chance for a quick preview of that.

Just to sum it up really, Kevin F in the athletic comments section writes, In just the last 10 days, United have lost to Forest, sacked the sporting director, won in Pilsen, dropped Rashford and Garnaccio, beat City, Rashford's done an interview, there was a bit of a bombshell, and now the Spurs cup tie. Well, so Jim Radcliffe's increased his stake as well. The Spurs cup tie was absolutely mental. I don't really know where we start, but...

I think we start with an introduction. We've got Andy Mitten and Karl Anke here. Good evening, gentlemen. Good evening. Good evening. That's a very good introduction. Nice segue. Very nice segue, that. Thanks, Karl. I sort of was aptly warmed up by shouting things at the television for the final sort of 30 minutes or so of that game.

I think I was just laughing for the last 10 minutes. Just like, what is going on? What is going on? I don't know. I did the full-time briefing and you typically want to get most of it done by the 75th minute. And then you just start topping and topping on extra details.

So my Binder section was done at halftime. Was added to though, surely, yeah? I had to just keep adding to it again and again and again and again, as was a new section that I had to write, which is where this second half comeback came from. Very bizarre. Bizarre is probably the word. I can think of others as well to describe that game at Spurs, Andy, but I think it's safe to say Altair Binder is not getting an FA Cup run. No, both goalkeepers had a bad night.

I watched him closely warm up before the Derby game on Sunday because I was pitch side for a bit with Tom Heaton. I said to the person I was with, it must be really weird being a second or third choice goalkeeper and it is about time that he gets a chance. Well, he certainly got the chance, but as you say, he's probably not going to be getting one anytime soon. There was no VAR. He was complaining. I don't think any of them were clear-cut. I can almost see why.

He was disputing it and the first goal, he was a little bit unlucky because it went in off the post. He could have had some help from his defenders, but no, the one where he was complaining most, I don't think he was strong enough. Bad, bad night. I'm really disappointed because Manchester United are not going to win the Premier League this year. Some people look down on the League Cup. It is the least important of the trophies that Manchester United are in.

Remember how we all felt when we were at Wembley, having beaten Newcastle a couple of years ago? It's absolutely worth winning. Could have had two semi-final games. Manchester United need money right now. I think Tottenham were beatable. The other thing is we've drawn Arsenal away in the FA Cup.

who will be far harder to beat than Tottenham. So I'm disappointed. I know there's a school of thought where people say it's irrelevant, it doesn't matter. I disagree with that. Yeah, me too. I feel disappointed. I was a bit surprised with the selection. Should we start there? I know we've sort of begun to talk about the goalkeeper and...

My goodness, they were two crazy goalkeeping performances from both sides, weren't they? That second half was quite something. But the selection, outside Bandeirin, obviously, it was Victor Lindos' first start under Amarin, only his fourth start actually since March.

with the issues he's had with injury and also sort of falling down the pecking order. He only lasted 44 minutes. Anthony, Christian Eriksen, only their second start under the new boss as well. There was still Fernandes, Agate, Hoyland, Martinez. But Carl, were you surprised at that selection? A little bit. I was surprised that Anthony was starting. More than one person in a live discussion page on the Ethelic said the line-up felt like Amarant wasn't too fussed about winning the game.

Yeah, it was. Yeah.

So there's that. And yet we are still in this phase where part of the rotation is necessary because Amir hasn't been fit enough. And you also do feel that part of the rotation is Amir still trying to get a look at some of these players. So my initial confusion over Anthony getting a start eventually turned into, well, I suppose Amir does want to get a look at him in more and more advanced positions as well as wingback positions.

So then we got a look at him and now, a little bit like Binder, I don't think you're going to start for Manchester United for a while. What did you think of the starting line-up, Andy? Anthony was the one player I picked out in my own mind as being a surprise. And I thought, and I was speaking to a mate about it, and I'll just read it back here. I suppose he's given everyone a chance and he cost a lot of money. I thought he would do well given the chance. Didn't really happen. I'm with Karl there.

It's really tricky because he's still set on a huge contract and we can say this about several players. I do think there is a talent there, but you've got to perform and he didn't perform tonight. I think there's a role for him and because of his left-footedness, Ameren will want to try him on the right-hand side because that's what he's enjoyed doing recently.

at Sporting and he's spoken about the importance of Ahmad's left foot. But again, because Anthony doesn't have the confidence to use his right foot and go outside, that really limits his opportunities there. So I know a lot of people have spoken about this before, but why not try Anthony on the left-hand side, see if that'd be better. Maybe there is something that he's doing at the training ground that means Amarin and others don't want to try him on the left-hand side, but we'll see between now and whenever. I think Anthony does have

some use in Manchester United. He had had some interesting cameos in recent weeks, but as a starter against a team who want to be finishing in

in the European places like Spurs? Maybe not. No, yeah, the subs definitely improved things for United, didn't it? That was the turning point in that second half, which sparked a little bit of a flash of a revival that they didn't quite see through. Obviously, that included Anthony going off with Hoyle and Eriksen, Manu, Ahmad and Xerxe with the players coming on. Ahmad again. I mean, just injecting enthusiasm, energy, energy,

work rate but Andy in that role in one of those number 10s especially if Xerxe is going to be the centre forward you need someone who's got pace who's going to commit players who's going to take people on you need someone to progress the ball in those areas and

Again, the comparison with Anthony, when you see Ahmad even just for a couple of minutes, it's stark, isn't it? You've missed one of the subs who does all of those things. The first sub on. Oh, yeah. And he scored. I mean, just judging by his stats tonight, mate. He actually played the last time...

Well, when Manchester United played Spurs in the 2009 final. Back to the days when Manchester United could field a second string 11 and still win competitions. Ben Foster, great game. We are so, so far away from that. Do you know when Johnny Evans last scored for Manchester United? Because I've done a bit of a dive on this. Oh, yeah.

So he's not scored since he came back, has he? No, he's not scored actually in any club game for three years. It was sort of Napoli, I think it was, in the Champions League for Leicester the last time he scored. But it's his first Manchester United goal in...

Since, and you'll remember this, Gabe, because if you thought tonight was a crazy cup tie, then remember this one. A 2-1 second leg League Cup semi-final win over Sunderland. Wow. In January 2014. Yeah. Which involved the worst penalty shootout I think I've ever seen. But in order to get there, Evans scored...

after about half an hour, that took the title extra time. Phil Bardsley equalised for Sunderland after De Gea had a bit of a fumble with literally about a minute of extra time left. That was United going out

on away goals before Javier Hernandez scored in stoppage time at the end of extra time to take it to a penalty shootout when 10 penalties were taken by both teams so five each and only three were scored it was dreadful the start of the intro for that the match report that night read Manchester United's season of misery hit new depths it wasn't quite that bad tonight but yeah you'd have liked to have celebrated a Johnny Evans goal Andy wouldn't you really rather than whatever that was

Oh, I did go on absolutely mad when he scored, you know, it was a big deal. I'm really worried that that game you talked about is 10 years ago. I can remember it clearly. Gus Poirier was the Sunderland manager and I was ghosting his column for him at the time and he was really good as a columnist because he was really open and he'd tell me what it was like and that night he went back and

He was buzzing because he'd beaten Manchester United and he went back to his rented apartment and people had put Sunderland scarves all over. And yeah, cheers for telling us this, Gus. Really appreciate this. Sorry, where were we with your column? So it's been a while. I didn't know how much Johnny Evans was going to figure because...

He seems to have become more peripheral since Amrin has come back. He's obviously had injuries as well. If you looked at the substitutes, they were very, very youthful. I thought Cobby did well, actually, but Ahmad made a huge difference. And Xerxe...

I think he had the first effort on target. That was after 62 minutes. And if I'm not mistaken, it was a header towards ground, wasn't it? If I'm not mistaken, it was also in the 62nd minute that Manchester United had the first effort on target in the derby. So do not go to the toilet or go and get a drink after 62 minutes against Bournemouth on Saturday because it's all about to happen.

We should mention Lindelof. I was a bit gutted for him. He looked absolutely heartbroken when he went off. If it is a recurrence, it's just horrible, isn't it? No footballer wants this to be happening. And he came off and Johnny Evans came on for him. The subs did make a difference. Pleasingly, this has happened a few times now under Amrim because we were quite critical of ten hard substitutes, weren't we? We said they'd taken too long.

But the whole game just sits under a cloud of United going out of a competition. 7,000 away fans there tonight. That's a lot of fans. Spurs weren't too greedy with the tickets either. And I just think it's a real shame because I was fuming at 3-0. United did well to get themselves back into it. But you saw the away end with five or ten minutes to go.

it was all but empty and it's just a shame I'm a sore loser it's one thing I've got in common with Jim Ratcliffe when he just said I hate losing you know against Tottenham nah it feels bad yeah I might again I wrote in the notes for the pod tonight Kyle because it wasn't just the goal it was like I said before the injection of enthusiasm and work rate but actually there's an end product as well four goals five assists so

So nine goal involvements across his last 10 appearances for United. That's the crucial thing. He is adding that as well as all the other stuff, the work rate and chasing lost causes and making Fraser Forster look like a pensioner. He's the quickest thinker in the room. I wrote a piece that went up today, being Thursday, on The Athletic about...

I mean, Henri said some very complimentary words about his goal. By the way, the spot from Henri to see that he changed where he was looking for the bounce of the ball was a sublime piece of punditry. It's something that someone of that level, as in the player that Henri was, can only know about. I have never watched for where a ball bounces. I've only ever watched for the ball bouncing, if that makes sense.

Yes, yes. I'm constantly looking for the flight of the ball and tripping up on my shoe laces. Exactly, exactly. You've seen me play football. But those are the things that stand Ahmad out. And even his goal tonight, he's the fastest person to react. And that will stand him out constantly. We know Andy's spoken to people saying he might not win you the Premier League, but he's definitely there to contribute. And I think it's...

entering this very interesting time in the United attack where we've gone from players actively going, where is Ahmad? Can I get the ball to Ahmad? To this little phase now where the team almost feels spurred on when he does something of going, I want to match his level. I want to follow his example, which feels a bit weird to say about a 22-year-old. But there was also this phase when Mainu broke through last season where you could see quite a few players were going, hang on.

Mainu's taking it slow. He's not playing 100 miles an hour. Maybe I need to be a bit more like this. So there are two or three players, albeit they came off the bench on Thursday night, where you can see this is where Manchester United might end up going in the next 12, 18 months. And it'll be getting more players around these talents. And I'm hoping this, you know, tide's all right. But all boats will rise with the tide. But yeah, it's good. I'm really enjoying Amr in substitutions. He...

He identified that Rasmus Hohenheim perhaps was good, but not having the movement that you need in the six-yard box today. He also...

caught on to the fact that Anthony perhaps wasn't quite at the races so made the changes Mainu is really impressing me now he's adding parts to his game that I haven't seen previously he's got this nice little switch pass that he wasn't doing last season that he's doing a bit more now going okay this is fun and maybe this is the new thing for Amir Amir keeps talking about I want to improve the players I want to improve the team and there are signs of it here and there

Yeah, it's good to see Lenny Oro start as well, Andy, wasn't it? He's had quite a start, really, and he's played away at the Emirates, played away at the Etihad, played away at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, obviously had the game at Old Trafford against Forest as well, but he looks all right as well, that needs to be fair. He'll benefit from that run out tonight and he's pushing towards starting more meaningful Premier League games fully now as well. Yeah, I think that's a fair comment. I mean, I spoke to

People who were heavily involved in that deal and some of the references were glowing. The best one was probably, he's going to be Francis Centre-half for the next decade. But there was also several suggestions that he's going to make mistakes. He's still raw, he's still very young. But it was put to mid, it was like getting Varane from Lons, as Manchester United tried to do.

Ahmad, he's probably the most exciting player for Manchester United at the moment. I'm really confident you've seen him take shots, improving month on month. So really good. With Lenny, I think he's going to get more and more minutes. I'm looking forward to seeing him prosper. There's good young players there. Hoyland clearly is Amarin's favourite centre-forward now.

Ugarte, who probably had his best game in the derby at the weekend, he's only young as well. Big shift in the first half. Yeah, he looked sharp, didn't he? Yeah. I actually thought Christian Eriksen was heavily involved in the first half. Him and Bruno Fernandes were the two players most heavily involved. I thought Bruno was getting some success on the left-hand side and Manchester United did have some chances, but...

It just all evaporates when you're 3-0 down. You're thinking, not again. That's a third defeat already in December. Please don't do another five defeats like last year. I just can't take it. And another game in North London where another set piece is conceded. These scripts keep writing themselves. And as one of the posters said previously,

So much is happening. I just wanted just to slow down a little bit. As we speak now, I can see the semi-final draw and I just don't want to know who we would have got. As you were saying that, I just checked X and Mish had tagged us in the XG from tonight, Carl. I thought this might get your juices flowing. So Tottenham 4, Manchester United 3, but the XG was 0.78 to Spurs and 2.58 to

to Manchester United. Now, I'm sure Xerxe and Ahmad's goals would have rated pretty high, but it feeds into the theme that we've talked about a few times now, and it's becoming a little bit of a concern for me more than before. United are conceding some really soft goals, aren't they? Yes, absolutely.

So 11 goals now in the past five games. And when you sort of look through them, there's individual errors, a lot of them. There's set pieces, yet more tonight. One straight from a set piece. All of them, really. I mean, Solanke's second, probably as close to a decent move and strike from an opposition player that we've had. The rest of them have been...

like I say really poor goals the xg from this game is going to be weird because like you said United's chances from Xerxe no matter can be rated highly and Spurs' goal direct from a corner is going to have a very low xg as well Amring keeps using this word sloppiness for a long time under Ericten Haag there was this chaos up and down and up and down and up and down and I think unlearning that is going to take a while we mentioned Jorah a bit earlier there was a pass he made

That was a little bit off target. There was a bit of commentary Martin Tyler used a couple of seasons back for Fred. And he said, Fred passing at the idea of Fernandez rather than at Fernandez.

And that stuck with me a bit. There's quite a few passes that United players do where it's at where the play used to be rather than where they are trying to run into. And I think this is why Mainu and Mad and quite a few other players stand out. So in that first half, United were doing some pretty good build-up, then hitting the switch over to Dalot and then Dalot was trying to hit the pullback for Eriksen. And yet the switch to Dalot wasn't as clean as it could be. And then Dalot's pass back to Eriksen

to Ericsson kept going on his left foot instead of to his right foot so he could hit it a full pelt rather than trying to mangle it through this crowd of bodies and these are the differences between a team like Manchester United's current point in time and a team like the teams or the majority of the teams in these League Cup semi-finals and unfortunately you don't get better at this until you just start drilling it over and over and over again

This will take time. And maybe Amarin, I've not listened to Amarin's post-match conference. I've just been half listening to the interview there when you've been talking and he sounded fairly pleased with the performance.

I think he might be in that the seeds are there and you're seeing a couple of green shoots. And I think he might not be too fussed about getting knocked out of the cup because he knows in order to get better in the long run, you just need to start drilling these boys a lot more about you pass to their strong foot when they receive the ball. So they don't have to keep slowing down and getting that extra bit there and there and there.

It is so up and down. It's winning two. It's drawing two. So Bodo, Glimpton, Everton, win-win. Arsenal and Forest, lose-lose. Victoria and Man City, win-win. Tottenham and no, no, no. Stop this pattern now. No, I won't. I won't. But there's an awkward pattern coming on here, isn't it?

Imagine if it carries on right through to the end of the season. Two wins, two defeats. Two wins, two defeats. Tenhawk didn't draw, remember? Yeah, but if there's no draws, we would actually move up the table because we'd be getting the wins.

I can't guarantee it we've had a few wins lately and we don't seem to have gone anywhere we've gone from 14th to 12th to 13th round again it's tight though Ian it's really tight I know we're going to come on to Bournemouth but Bournemouth are 6 and if United beat Bournemouth on Saturday United go above Bournemouth really? yeah honestly Carl's looking startled wow yeah really really

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Okay, let's talk about Marcus Rashford then. It's been a week of Marcus Rashford, hasn't it? After he was left out of the Manchester derby, along with Alejandro Garnaccio, who is back on the bench tonight. I'm sure we'll have our say on him as well and his situation. But Rashford obviously is more pertinent after revealing in an interview with Henry Winter this week that he's looking forward to

to a new challenge and for the next steps in what that entails. He was then left out of the squad again tonight. Amarim has said once again the door is open for him to continue his career at Manchester United, that there's training available

that will take place on Friday, that Rashford's expected to be part of that, and we'll see if he's part of the squad for the next game against Bournemouth. Now, Andy, we spoke a little bit about Marcus, obviously, after the derby at the weekend. We know a bit more now, after that interview that he's done this week. What's your take on all of this? Sadness that it's come to this, that a Manchester lad who supports Manchester United, who came through the academy system, who should be at the top of his game,

is talking about leaving. I feel that I could write strong arguments for and against, and I know people who know him very well, and they fight his corner, and they say things to me like, if Gary Neville would have made his debut at the same time as Marcus Rashford, would he have had the same career? Because Marcus has played through a pretty troubled time at Manchester United. I just feel...

Him saying the other day that he could move on. He might relish another challenge. My first reaction was, why say that? What good can come from saying that? And maybe he's being honest. But if you're going to sell something, i.e. yourself, okay, you're putting yourself out into the marketplace. What if no one comes in for you? Because you earn too much. Who is going to come in for you? Are people going to do background checks onto you? They are.

What are they going to find out? Even now, I'd still love him to be a success at Manchester United. I'm proud that he has come through and so many of the things he's done off the pitch as well. But I'm tinged with a real mixed feeling about the whole thing. I don't know what you two think, whether I'm being fair or unfair. He's become a very polemic figure where...

Some United fans are just not having him at all. I said back in February and it didn't add up. I couldn't find anyone else who had the away end who wanted him to stay. But then half an hour later, the whole away end's bouncing, singing to Marcus Rashford. So maybe that's not even a good indicator or a good example because fans really changed the tune. And if Marcus Rashford scored six times in the next six matches, we'd all be celebrating him. And that is part of being a footballer as well.

Part of me feels sorry for him as well. I think you're right. If Marcus Rashford scores six in the next six games, things would be different. But also, Marcus, one, has to do something in training to convince Ruben Amarin to give him the minutes. And two, he has to score those goals. Recently, that hasn't been happening. Ruben Amarin says, for some reason, the way the performance or whatnot before training, before the derby, wasn't good enough to start. Ruben Amarin sees him more than anyone else. And that's his decision to make.

And then we've had this interview where Marcus was asked the honest question and gave an honest answer. And I feel sadness that he's talking about when rather than if, but also it's a very sad situation. This is a football player who's been at the club for however many years. He has lived the dream of so many Manchester United fans, score in debut after debut after debut. And when things were dark and bleak, he put on his boots and,

even when his own body was beginning to fail on him and did what he could for Manchester United. And now, for whatever reason, the request being made by Ruben Amorim to go into training and do X seems beyond him. If you can't bridge that gap and do the thing that Amorim wants him to do, then you have to deal with the next scenario, which is what happens next. I think however you feel about Marcus Rashford, and I'm walking around Manchester City Centre and whatnot, and

There are Manchester United fans who are absolutely done, get rid, have him gone. There are also Manchester United fans, I will say, who like Marcus Rashford and also go, he has to go because he's not happy here. And I don't see him being happy here anymore. And maybe for his own good and for the club's own good, just have a clean break whenever and do this, which is another scenario as well. It's all very sad and it doesn't seem as if

everyone's properly aligned at a time where Amarin is constantly talking about the need for alignment and the need for everyone to work as a team, as a collective. So to have someone who, I said before in a previous podcast, this is the period where you find out who's going to fit in and who's going to proverbial not be there for a while. Dalo in the mix zone,

talked about how this is a period of suffering and how everyone needs to suffer and everyone needs to work really hard because that's how Manchester United get better and if this is a situation where the next phase of suffering isn't if Mark isn't capable of that then you have to deal with what happens next unfortunately

Well, there's a banner in the away end tonight which spoke to one of the schools of thought that you referred to then, Carl, where it said, excuses, ta-ra, Marcus. I don't suppose that speaks for every single Manchester United fan, of course, but obviously it's

Got to a point really where fans feel the need to create banners like that and take them to matches and display them in that way. I mean, I got a little bit of criticism when we did the live show in Dublin for trying my best to stand up for Marcus and support him. Because for me, as someone who grew up following the club in the local area, the idea of having a local lad in the team...

And this goes for any local lad in any team, to be honest. I interviewed Curtis Jones a couple of weeks ago and I know he plays for Liverpool and whatever else, but I found myself respecting him and sort of admiring his stance on being a local lad and representing the area, you know, a scouser in their side and things like that. I just think fundamentally it's a really important element for our teams to have local lads, people who've grown up supporting the team in the first team. That could be any of us doing that, but obviously...

If any of us are doing that, we'd like to think that we'd be giving our absolute all for the side at every given opportunity. And unfortunately, that seems to be one of the main points of criticism for Rashford. That said, Andy, the thing that stands out for me in this situation with Aaron leaving him out

and also with the interview the other day as well, I'm just asking why. So I know Amrin's kind of explained why he's out of the team, but we don't really know the specifics of why. Even the quote he gave to Henry Winter, for me personally, I think I'm ready for a new challenge and the next steps. The follow-up question should be, does that mean you want to leave now? There wasn't that clarity. And also, if you do feel that you're ready for a new challenge, why? I mean, Wayne Rooney obviously said,

not popularly with Manchester United fans, released his statement, didn't he, at the time where it felt like he was desperate to leave the club and was questioned in the future direction and all that sort of stuff. There was real clarity over that situation. We knew exactly where he stood and what was going on. Whereas with this, I'm just like, why is he out of the team? What are the specifics? And if you do want to go on to a new challenge, why? Explain. Let us understand, you know.

As we stand, he's a depreciating asset. He was spoken of being a £100m player a couple of years ago. What would you get from him now? £30m, £40m? Who would come in for him? I don't even like referring to him as an asset though because he's a human being trying to make his way in a pretty complicated city, which Manchester is. It's a goldfish bowl.

No one's given him any practice to live this life. And I don't really buy the line, he earns X or he earns Y. Don't even have a problem if a player has a certain type of car or not. He will predominantly be judged on how he performs. And because he's not performing as well as his wage would suggest. Because if he was on 40 grand a week, do you think the criticism would be as harsh against him?

I don't. I think a lot of fans have just lost patience with him. I've said a few times as a journalist, he's got a really awkward relationship with the media that does him no favours either. I think I've seen some of his PR in recent years and I've cringed, I'll be honest. I kept a close counsel on some of it.

But someone said to me the other day, you know, when he's relaxed, when he's giving you his attention, when that smile breaks through, he's a lovely, lovely human. Underneath it all, there is a lovely human. And I don't see that smile, but I'm not close to him. I don't know what's going through his mind. You know, you don't know what battles he's having in his life. Nedda Manua did a piece. Is it even fair to judge him? But when you are a footballer and you are in the public eye, people will judge you.

There's Manchester United players who have done far worse than what Marcus Rashford have done and still been celebrated. There's statues of some of them outside Old Trafford. But some fans do need a scapegoat as well. I was pretty struck by the criticism, Ian, when you stuck up for Marcus in Dublin. And I'm nodding along there as a local lad. But where are you from, Ian? Where am I from?

You know, most Manchester United fans listening to this will not be Mancunians. They might see things differently. And they're also entitled to that opinion as well. I don't think he's going to be the world-class player that we thought he might be. But is that our fault for building him up? Because we're putting too much hope into somebody. And he has played at a very unsettled club where he has been asked to play a different way under numerous different managers. Yeah.

He really could help himself, but that's easy for me to say. I remember in the middle of when the halo was being put above his head and he was rightly being celebrated. People in Ermston, where I'm from, collected 15 grand and they wanted to present it to him, but that wasn't possible. But what was possible was Burberry and Prada and all these huge deals. And that irked people locally. But then he was so famous...

David Beckham can't do everything that's asked for him either. And I know there was pushback. Okay, concentrate on the football now. But then there was pushback against that. What you're saying is more important, a game of football or actually solving hunger for kids who can't have school meals? Some good came out of

what he did. I just feel conflicted and sad about the whole thing. I don't like the way that Man United fans always need a scapegoat. They just do. They always need someone to have a go at. And Scott McTominay got so much stick last year at times and fans can change the tune so quickly.

But I also think the level of abuse that Marcus Rashford has taken at times from Manchester United fans and beyond has almost been unprecedented as well. I mean, you look at... Yeah, that's not on. It cannot have been easy to be him. It's been unprecedented. There have been studies of him being one of the most abused athletes in the world. We also have to talk... I'm sorry, I'm going to have to bring up the fact there's a racial element to some of this as well. I think there is, Karl. You don't have to apologise for that, Karl, at all. I think that's fair comment. And when we talk about the inconsistencies...

Andy, you talked about how he's been working in a dysfunctional team. On a really number one level, we talk about, oh, Marcus Rashford's goal tally goes up and down and up and down and up and down. Put it next to Luke Shaw's minutes per season. Marcus tends to play pretty well when Luke Shaw is fit. And it's one thing, is he going to be a world-class football player?

No, probably not. Can he be a 10-goal, 10-assist or 15-goal, 10-assist football player if Manchester United had worked harder to make sure there is a left back of some sort in there on a season-on-season basis? Maybe. However, a lot of these questions now are besides the point now in introductory paragraphs because the big question now is what happens next? And the answer to that probably is how hard...

does Marcus Rashid want to work? If it's in a Manchester United shirt or in a shirt playing for somewhere else, he is going to have to apply himself at a level that we've seen before, right? Marcus's level of graft is,

in previous seasons has been ridiculous. I remember seeing him during a phase where he was wearing flip-flops because his foot was so swollen. He couldn't wear hard shoes. And then pretty much the next week he went off and scored a great goal in the Europa League because the one time he could wear hard shoes was of wearing a football boot for United. And he's been willing to put his body on the line and work hard in the past. I suppose the question is,

Well, the big question, or the big deciding question is how hard are you willing to work to get the thing you want next? And then you figure out what's the thing you want next. Is it working really hard to get your place back into Aaron's team, to win back part of this part of, I don't think the entire fan base is going to love him ever again, to work to get back part of this fan base again, and to maybe see how the rest of your career goes?

at Manchester United and we'll go, yeah, that bit was a blip. Or is it you work really hard to get your stock back up so therefore more clubs are likely to try and be in for you at the next transfer window. But no matter what happens, Marcus needs to work hard enough to get into Manchester United's squad and then you've got to take it from there.

And every single Ameren press conference so far, he's been hit with a barrage of Marcus questions. And I think he's answered them all very well in saying the door is open. We have training. If Marcus wants to work and play to a high and perform at a high level, he's here. We are better with Marcus in it. So we have to wait and see what happens next. With Lululemon, the real gift happens when your holiday checklist is complete. When you give them the softest lounge drawer set, you both get more moments like this and this.

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Let's just reflect some of the emails we've had on this because we've had a lot, as you can imagine, people feeling very, very strongly about this. I think it's such a sad situation that we're here with someone who has been at the club for the length of time that he has, has a relationship with the club that he has as well. But anyway, Liam, I've never enjoyed Rashford being somewhat scapegoated and I imagine loads of fans are going to question his attitude after his statement. But is it worth mentioning that this summer,

And two weeks ago, the club seemed to be making a point of broadcasting very publicly that they wanted to sell Rashford. I'm not sure if that's true, but that's the take that Liam had on it. Becky, many big players who have come through the academy have left, whether it's been amicable or under a cloud. Ultimately, no player is bigger than the club. I hope Marcus stays, fights for a place, adapts and helps the team move up the table. I'm not sure if it's going to happen, though.

Also one from David as well. If Rashford was to repeat over the second half of his career what he's achieved in the first half of his career, he'd end up Manchester United's all-time record goalscorer and second highest appearance holder behind Ryan Giggs. Rashford hasn't failed Manchester United. I mean, there's lots of opinions. There's lots of deferring opinions, Andy, as well. Fundamentally, do you think he will leave the club in January? Where? Where will he go to? Where could he go to?

There is a very good piece on The Athletic outlining some of the options. It's not that many because Marcus, as you pointed out, Marcus is one of the highest played players in the Premier League, which makes him one of the highest played players in the world. And it's a five-year deal that was only signed in the summer of 2023. And he's also best off in a position that is very well stocked in some of the richest football clubs in the world. There's quite a few clubs that have a very quick contract.

left-sided forward who likes to cut inside and shoot. Some of them in Spain have too. I'll read that tomorrow, mate. It's not impossible. And there is always... It's not impossible. And I suppose if everyone is aligned on finding a move, things can happen. It's not too long ago that we were talking about Romelu Kakou, who was on more than 300 grand a week for Chelsea. And we were describing him as stuck. And then all of a sudden, Chelsea found a way to...

get a loan deal with him and another club. Italy's tax exemptions for foreign football players is not what it used to be. So I have no idea if any of those Italian clubs are well inclined to do that. But it is this very, very weird situation in that there's a football player who is on superstar wages and sometimes hits a superstar level who needs a spot and the best spot for him.

might be United but also he's got to want it. Yeah I mean PSG's been eternally mentioned Andy the MLS and Saudi were the other ones that featured quite prominently in Critch's piece on the Athletic about Rashford's future but at 27 it seems far too early for that sort of move doesn't it? I mean I think I'd be even more sad about the situation if it ended up with Rashford moving to America or Saudi at this stage. How old was George Best when he played his final game for Manchester United? 26 years old.

I'm not saying that Marcus is like George Best as a person, as a footballer, because he's not. But sometimes it ends in sadness. Football lends itself to sadness. I don't know where he'll go. I don't know who would want him. I don't know whether he's happy. It doesn't look like he's happy. He's got all these things which people covet and want and desire. I wouldn't like to be him at the moment. I wouldn't like to be him with that life at the moment.

no and sometimes a change is as good as a break or there's a cliche there but if you love someone set them free but but where to you do see some players go to another league and they start to thrive but his wages are a huge huge obstacle so what did you know i do like nanny okay he retired last week um

Should give him a nod there because he had a decent career. He earned too much money and Manchester United wanted to get rid of him. So he went to Sporting in Lisbon and United ended up having to subsidise a huge amount of his wages. I don't know what the solution is. I mean, as Carl says, I've not disagreed with anything that Ruben Amorim has said about Marcus Rashford. I genuinely believe...

He will get another chance tomorrow. I wouldn't have been surprised if he would have started against Spurs. That's not happened. But there are so many games. It's not inconceivable that he'll train well and get chances again and even score goals again.

The issue as well, Carl, that we've had an email from Greg about this, that it summons is, he says, in addition to all the other indignities we've suffered the last couple of years, I think another longstanding tradition could come to an end soon. I suspect that our 87-year tradition of always having an academy graduate in the matchday squad could come to an end this season without a legitimate defender or goalkeeper from the academy who's at least benchworthy each and every week with

with McTominay sold Rashford on his way out of the club, I think that would leave just Garnaccio and Mainu as our first-team regulars. And, of course, obviously Alejandro,

wasn't in the squad at the derby, was back in the team and on the bench tonight. But yeah, that's actually a serious concern when you spell it out like that. This got pointed out after the derby that without Johnny Evans going out to run Rashford, only Mainu kept the record intact. Yeah. This is me completely gut feeling that after the derby, someone might have just nudged Amarim going, could you just make sure there's one extra play on the bench and it should happen again? Evans coming back or Evans' performance...

for the most part, against Spurs makes me think the record might be a bit safer. And also, we do have to say Garnaccio not only featured in the squad but also played against Tottenham. And he was Ameren's roll of the dice when he wanted to go in search of that equaliser at 3-2. Whatever pathway is back for Garnaccio to get...

into either Amaran's good graces or the fan base's good graces, that pathway seems to be set and Garnaccio's already taken the first step. So maybe the record there is

kept a little bit healthier through Garnaccio's presence as well. Yeah, I don't think the issue for Garnaccio is as deep as Rashford either from what I was told anyway. And it sounds like already Garnaccio is doing what he needs to do to be back in the reckoning. And hopefully that does become just a one week issue for

where he's left out of the squad. I'm sure he's not been perfect and that was why he was left out by the boss. But it sounds like there is obviously, like you say, a path that's already been trodden. I know Laurie's probably listened to this podcast as well. And given the amount of chat everyone gives Laurie about the January transfer window,

I think he might be going, United have no money, which therefore means Amarin's probably going to have to pay more attention to Carrington, which therefore means there's an opportunity for one academy player in 2025 to maybe be on the bench a couple more times. I'll be interested to see what Amarin makes of Toby Collier. There's some top young players there. Some top players, the 18s are the national champions.

When you consider how tough the competition is, that's a real achievement. I've been down there a few times this season. And while football is becoming more globalised and you suspect that these records are going to vanish, actually the opposite can be true. Look at Barcelona. Most of their amazing young players coming through are Catalans who've come through. They're U-franks. Sometimes clubs have to

go back to seeing what they can bring through because of financial necessity. And that's certainly going to be true of Manchester United as well. Yeah, and obviously the youth team won in the FA Youth Cup 5-0 in the third round against Coventry. A fantastic way to start that competition. We'll keep a close eye on them as that tournament progresses. You spoke about January a moment ago, Carl. There was lots of talk of a £79 million injection over the last 24 hours from Sir Jim Radcliffe.

taking his stake on to 28.94%. We're getting very precise in the club.

But it's understood that that money actually is for further investment in infrastructure and not any sort of budget for the January transfer window. But anyway, before any of that, we need to preview Bournemouth. We've gone on quite a bit already. Tricky again, Andy. Painful memories of that 3-0 defeat for Manchester United against Bournemouth last December as well. We do not need a repeat of that, do we? No, absolutely not. But...

I keep saying Bournemouth are decent, so I'm not going to say it again, but Bournemouth... They are though, aren't they? Yeah, they are. They've got a top manager, they've got a top sports director. I thought it was significant that they beat Manchester City, but everybody beats Manchester City, so it's not quite that significant. They showed what they could do coming to Old Trafford last year. I mean, that was a stunning win for them and I wouldn't be stunned if Manchester United lost again. I just wouldn't. Look at the...

The pattern of matches... You wouldn't be stunned. Would you be annoyed? Yeah, I would be. Of course I would. My brows are furrowed as I'm even saying this. Four defeats in December. I'd be absolutely fuming if Manchester United lost that. But they're a good side.

The thing is with Bournemouth, Carl, they've beaten City this season, like Andy mentioned, but they've also beaten Arsenal, they've beaten Tottenham as well. But these results have come at home. It's not been away from home. The only games they've won on the road in the Premier League so far have been against Everton, Wolves and Ipswich, which I think off the top of my head is the bottom three or at least maybe three of the bottom four or five.

United are much higher than that, but you'd like to think that this is the sort of game again where we can take a step forward, we can start looking at the table. Like we mentioned earlier on in the podcast, there's seven places between United in the bottom half and Bournemouth in the European places, but only three points. So we're at that stage where even now one result counts.

couple of results and the table was looking completely different and things had just seemed better not being 14th now's the time to build momentum although Andy says they're a good side they're no mugs and 13th sorry not 14th I wasn't at Old Trafford last year but I do remember Dan Sheldon I believe sending some mixed zone quotes after defeat and one of the Bournemouth players pointed out that they actively targeted the space behind United's fullbacks and

in that defeat, knowing this idea if we win the ball back and we can hit the ball into those areas quickly, we can get a result. I think Bournemouth have some very good players who probably could be playing in the Champions League. Their left back in particular impresses me. I think Evan Nilsson has the minerals to be playing Champions League football eventually as well. So I think this is a good test again of Amarant's

I think that right-hand side now is getting better and better and better, especially the longer Ahmad and Masraoui play. I think Ugart is getting better, but they're all also things that need to be sorted out. This does feel like one of those games where you hope Hoyden has a good first touch in the first 10 minutes.

I think there were two or three moments against Spurs where you're going, ah, you're not gambling in that six-yard box. I need you to really try and break your nose to get on the end of that cross. If he does it, I'll treff in the first 10, 15 minutes against Bournemouth. I think United could be away. This is still a confidence team in Man United. Once they get one goal, they sadly remember how to pass crisper. So first goal's key. Fingers crossed. Right, well, let's leave it there on Talk of the Devils.

It's been a long day for Andy Mitten on his 51st birthday, but happy birthday, Mr. Mitten. I hope you've had a lovely day and enjoyed spending your final hours of your birthday or final hour or so of speaking to us on Talk to the Devils. It's been a pleasure as always. Thank you for your company listening along. Thank you, Carl, as well. Remember, if you ever want to get in touch with the pod, the email address devilspod at theathletic.com and we'll speak to you again after Bournemouth. Take care. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

The first ever 12 team college football playoff is set and you can join me, David Ubbin. And me, two-time national champion of Alabama, Damian Harris. And me, Chris Vanini, two-time national champion in the college football 25 video game. On until Saturday, the Athletics College Football Podcast for all the playoff previews, predictions, coaching carousel, and transfer portal news four times a week throughout the CFP.

Dame, how do you think Bama's going to do in the playoffs? Shut up, David. Listen, the time may be out of the playoffs, but I'm super excited to see the 12 best teams in the nation play. All the banter, insights, and more on Until Saturday. Subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.