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The Athletic FC Podcast Network. This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. Here we are. It's not midnight. It's shortly before 9pm on Thursday night and we're here to react to the 1-0 draw in San Sebastian in the first leg of Manchester United's Europa League last 16 tie against Real Sociedad. Could have been better. Could have been worse at the end, certainly. It's been another week of candid comments as well from Ruben Amerin. We'll reflect on that later.
And of course, Arsenal are next up on Sunday at Old Trafford. And we will preview that game. But first of all, I have got two gentlemen standing by to talk to us.
inside a football stadium. Laurie Whitwell and Andy Mitten, both over in Spain. How are we doing? It's been a while this, hasn't it? Since we've been able to couch together around the microphone. Yeah, well, we're told we have to. Parise Raleigh told us we've got to speak into the microphone to make our words nice and clear for the listeners because obviously they're going to be important and meaningful. Laurie, how long have you been podcasting for?
Well, I mean, am I even really doing podcasting now? I don't know if I'm... I feel like a bit of a fraud. You're on a podcast. Okay, I know, but, you know, am I genuinely doing it? Five years we've been doing this podcast, I think. Okay. Five or six. So you do realise that you are supposed to talk into microphones by now, then? I know, I do that all the time, but you...
I've got Andy right next to me here. We're cuddling up. It's very cosy. And you just have to remember to do it in this scenario. The closer Andy gets to you in the microphone, the more he smiles. He's happy. The most he was smiling was when he came into the stadium today and he had a massive burger in his mouth. I'm like, Andy, you've given me grief for allegedly, falsely eating chips every time I come to Spain. What were you doing having a burger in this beautiful cuisine place?
Hang on, weren't you talking about the pinchos and, you know, more Michelin stars than... Yeah, I mean, the burger was in my mouth. It's not going to be in my shoe, is it? So I came into the stadium and I'm an idiot because I've come to the culinary capital of Spain. And had a burger. No, no, I've had like pinchos. You can take the boy out of Ermston. I have had nice pinchos and they are fantastic, but I didn't quite eat enough.
and then I had a bit of fruit because I eat healthy because I'm not getting any younger and then I got to the stadium and I was just starving starving like worried about how hungry I was and then the only thing they sold burger or pizza which is ridiculous to come to San Sebastian and have either of those so I hold my hands up and Andy caught me doing it as well better than coffee and cheese which you normally scoff in just before a match yeah
I'm actually a bit jealous of you because I'm a bit hungry now as well. Yeah, yeah. So we'll have to find somewhere after this. It was succulent. Anyway, I don't think people have come here to listen to us talk about what we've eaten tonight. I mean, obviously, it all adds to the mix, doesn't it? But anyway, 1-1. Frustratingly 1-1. Yeah. I would have probably taken 1-1 before the game with reservations because United are
poor at Old Trafford although not in the Europa League we've had some decent results there I thought it was a pretty flat first half I thought United were much stronger in the second half well worth the goal well worked goal pretty impressive appearances I thought Dorga was good in the first half Casemiro got stronger we can talk about weaker players
as well but it turned on their penalty and nobody noticed the penalty did you Laurie? No I mean it's one of those where it's only ever given in the VAR world isn't it and we weren't told on a big screen what they were looking at you could kind of get a hint of it because Bruno's sort of talking to the ref and he's sort of making a nodding motion with his head is it though? No one appealed for it
Fine, he's handed a weird place, but okay. Do you remember the one we got away at PSG? Well, yeah, fine. Do you know PSG was six years ago tonight? Is that right? Yeah, yeah, that's right. Wow. Six years ago tonight. What a night that was. Anyway, we should concentrate on this game. In some ways, I'd rather just talk about that, but yeah, let's talk about Real Sociedad. I mean, yeah,
There was quite a lot of sort of mixed reactions, shall we say, online to that decision. But in modern terms, in the VAR world... As soon as you saw it on replay, you could see it was going to get given. Yeah. Just annoying because if they could actually, like...
shoot properly tonight and at times pass the ball properly in the box to tee people up. It felt like in some ways the most straightforward game United had in Europe this season. They could have won 2-0. It felt like one of those games where once they got the first goal, I mean, the big moment for me, OK, maybe it becomes a footnote after the event, but at the time it felt big and maybe it speaks to wider issues around this team, but was that chance in the first half where Dalot doesn't pass to Hoyland
And... Garnaccio had a similar thing in the second half where he shoots into the side net and I think for the second time, if he squares it, Hoyland's just stood there waiting to kick it in the goal. And his reaction that time was more sort of...
waving a white flag almost. His reaction to Dallow was the red rage. And then, yeah, I think with Garnaccio, he knows that's what he's going to get. He does keep passing to him, though, Hoyland. He keeps teeing him up. And it's a thankless task, really, for him. But the Dallow one just...
irritated me more so because that's your role in the team they practice it in the warm-ups just square the ball and I asked Amarin about it afterwards and he said he thought that probably Dalot wasn't aware that Rasmus Hoylen was you know in advance of his opposition you know player but those are the kind of chances that don't go down on the XG you know they don't don't even get marked up as a big chance because it doesn't get to that point but actually they're in a good position and the right kind of pass at
crossing first time that's my big right you know cross it first time and see what happens Dorgu does that and Dalo actually then started to do it and created a chance in the second half by doing so so hopefully that's a kind of flick that switches or a switch that flicks but yeah I feel like it
it was frustrating because you had lots of good performances there Xerxe Casemiro as you say De Ligt I thought was pretty much faultless perhaps only getting done at the end by Oskarsson for that chance but it's a lot of good performances particularly in the circumstances where you're thinking they've got no subs to make and they were clearly knackered at the end and that that
is a telling moment so it's frustration because you're just worried about what what they're going to do at Old Trafford particularly if Zubi Mendy's back well you worry that it's a different game considering the tie was there to win tonight in my opinion you could have been well out of sight by the end of that 90 minutes tonight in some ways and made the second leg a little bit more immaterial it's just the lack of confidence still isn't it I mean you talk about Hoyland zero shots you
He said that those opportunities don't go down as stats. Well, there is a stat that again highlights the struggle he's having and 19 games without a goal now for him.
And that's the centre forward. There's a few. I think Dalot looks short of confidence as well. He did do some nice things. He pulled the ball back for Bruno just before half-time. I thought he did well there. I don't think Garnaccio had a good game. It was very frustrating him. No. Hit the ball into the side netting. So you can see, and I agree with you, I thought Dalot was good. And Arne made some important saves. And to survive at the end, because the crowd woke up. It was pretty quiet there.
maybe because it was a 6.45 kick-off, which in Spain might as well be in the middle of the morning. So everyone's coming here. They've just had the breakfast. It's pretty quiet. You just had a burger, yeah. I've just had a burger. And then they got the penalty and it woke up, didn't it, Laurie? It was pretty loud then. It suddenly turned. It was quiet in here. When United were having that period of
superiority in the second half where it felt there was lots of space for them lots of counter-attacking opportunities and the crowd were quiet and then obviously the penalty happened and they start doing the Poznan well they not had a shot on target had they to that point to the penalty which you know that underlines United's dominance the Poznan just rubbed it in a little bit I didn't know that was a Basque thing yeah they did a
a big pause I thought United had control control of the game especially with Casemiro especially with Bruno I don't think Bruno had a great game tonight but I thought their experience told in the first half and United had a good block it was hard to break down first half stats 37% possession for United which is one of the lowest of the season but I still felt United were in control I was so surprised I didn't feel like that
I thought they had quite a lot of control. It really didn't feel like they were under the cosh in that way. Real Sociedad play a high line, United would try to put balls behind it, try to exploit the space there. And they've done that well in Europe this year. Most effective against Porto when Rashford scored. United had a flying start in that one. And this game was nothing like that. It was as flat as the atmosphere in the first half. But by the end of it, I think it sets it up quite nicely for next week and...
They were missing the best player, but United were missing even more players. And if a couple of them can come back, I'm sounding hesitant because...
We've seen United play at Old Trafford in recent weeks, haven't we? Exactly. That's the thing. You sort of wanted them to get a result tonight to make sure that going back to Old Trafford wasn't going to be an issue and obviously now it's finally poised. This is the ninth best team in Spain and this is not Real Madrid. This is a team who have not done well this season. They did look it. They did look it.
Lack of an edge. Lack of an edge. Until the final 20 minutes. Especially in front of goal. Not even a sense of occasion. When they first came to Old Trafford, they brought 6,000 fans. It was like, whey, trip of a lifetime, boys. And now it's a third time. And they won't be bringing anything like that. They'll be coming in a taxi. One of them jobs are full of them size the way following.
United fans were singing about going to Bilbao which is just along from it it would be amazing if we could get there are they not just mean on the way back I am let's call it for a look round yeah
You never know. And in most contexts, a 1-0 draw away from home in the first leg in a European tie is a positive. And Manchester United are still the only unbeaten side in the Champions League and Europa League this season. So there is one positive stat that we can still cling on to just about. When I said about Hoyland before, Laurie, you really frowned. And I didn't answer your question.
He went off in five different directions, which is what we love about him, obviously. Were you frowning at the question or were you frowning at Andy's response? No, no, because my view of Hoyland tonight was actually he played pretty well considering he didn't have a shot and Garnaccio had five. That was just Garnaccio being greedy and taking the wrong choice too often. And...
I felt that he actually was pretty good at holding the ball up there was a couple of times where Onana went long I mean the kick-off this is what we're now at with United they take a kick-off and go back to Onana and everyone pushes up and he goes long I mean this is where we're at now
But I thought, he was really unlucky, wasn't he, in that moment when he twisted nicely and he managed to keep on his feet even though he was getting his shirt torn off his back and the referee then blew up when actually Garnaccio was through on goal. Yeah, he did miss anyway. Yeah, true, side netting. So I actually thought he was walking off, he looked sad at the end of the game, he looked like, what have I got to do here to get a chance to shoot? Because he didn't... Yeah, I've...
criticised him previously for there was one chance at Old Trafford recently where he stepped over the ball instead of hitting it I think Dorgud had passed to him where he had opportunities to shoot and he didn't I don't think he actually had those tonight maybe he could have done when he twisted and he could have had a shot away but the ref had blown anyway so it wouldn't have counted but
I don't think there were opportunities really for him to shoot here. So I can understand why he's feeling deflated coming off the pitch. And Amarin, to that point, spoke afterwards and said he's just got to think of the next game and got to stay positive because he was doing the right things tonight, I think. I saw him run onto the pitch. He looked more confident before it. So I didn't look at someone and think that is a defeated person. You also had two of Spain's best central defenders marking him tonight.
And I thought he did hold the ball up quite well. And that tug looked pretty harsh, didn't it? When Bruno put a nice ball in for him. No goals in 19. Of course, some of that is on him. Of course, when you're playing for Manchester United, that's never, ever going to be acceptable. And at one point, he was the leading scorer in his competition. That's now fallen right away. And...
We all want it to change, don't we? Yeah, we do. It's just difficult to see how it does change. I mean, the thing is, it's not just him, is it? You know, you're sort of looking for these players in the attacking positions to get more confidence and that only really comes with them taking the chances. But the more they go on missing these chances, the less confident they are and so it continues. Even Xerxe's attempt, to be honest, I think the keeper probably should have saved it, to be fair. It was...
Pretty central, wasn't it? It was his first European goal for Manchester United, so I'm not going to take it away from him. He hit it first time though, didn't he? That's what I liked. Hit it first time, hit it hard. Yeah, yeah, true, yeah. He had a bit of swerve on it, because that's what United seem too hesitant in moments. I want them to be first time and try things, because if you do it that way, then the defenders are caught off guard. They're facing their own goal. The goalkeeper isn't set. Well, just don't think about it too much. The overthinking and the overplaying and the mis-controls and the mis-cues and the scuffed attempts and...
It just all adds in, doesn't it, really? I also thought Real Sociedad's substitutes made a difference. Definitely. They came off the bench and when you looked at the Manchester United bench, you thought that was a very inexperienced bench. Although the players who came on were actually very experienced in Eriksen and Lindelof and Kolya came on as well. I'm not going to use the words finely poised, but...
but I just have done and it is I think I already have on this podcast no more we should ban it I think it's poised finally actually poised finally right you find 30 quid if any of us use those words in the next week
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In terms of the changes, yes, definitely. Real Sociedad's game gained so much momentum from the changes when they brought Oskar Son on and Becker as well. Why them two didn't start when you see the impact that they made off the bench, I'm not sure, because they look miles better than the players who they did have on in the first half and the start of the second half. But they injected energy. Manchester United's changes didn't necessarily. Amarim pointed to a lack of energy, a bit of fatigue.
at the end of the game. You could see that as well, actually. It's no surprise considering they only had about, was it 15 outfield players for the game tonight? Something like that. Or senior ones, anyway.
How much of a concern is that? I mean, we'll talk about Arsenal in a bit, but in some ways you'd be quite happy for them to just write off Arsenal, wouldn't you? And make sure that they're okay for the second leg. Well, it feels, I mean, some of the quotes are embargoed, but Ruben Amarin has done his pre-Arsenal press conference and I think I'm okay to sort of give a sense that the squad are tired and getting through that game is going to be the main priority, which is, I suppose, just where United are at at the moment. But we asked him yesterday why no...
academy players on the bench necessarily to perhaps then give that vibrancy obviously Harry Amas was on the bench he could have come on it was interesting that he said he wanted him for the Fulham game actually but he played the full 120 minutes against Arsenal he's played very good in that game and I don't think he could have really come off but it's interesting was that communicated in advance or why is that the case that he's then not able to
perhaps feature against Fulham or if that decision is taken elsewhere but clearly he wasn't entertaining any suggestions that he could have had some academy players on the bench just as alternative options he was very much saying I've got to look at the whole thing I'm not just going to put young players there on the bench for media and fans and obviously he did have a full bench of them at Tottenham so that was maybe one point being made and now it's a different point being made but that's three games in a row I think where he's not used his full substitutes bench or not
not named substitutes on it he said he's got plans in his mind as to what substitutions he's going to make so I presume Ericsson coming on Collier coming on Lindelof were all sort of ideas in his mind before the game but obviously you know Dogi went down in the first half and looked like he might be injured and that's
Do you plan for something like that? You kind of feel like you might just need a break glass in case of emergency scenario to have a few players that are in different positions and you never know you might need them. Well, particularly Jack Fletcher, who has been included in the Europa League squad, obviously in favour of Chido. Chido Wobbe, who I don't think we need to go over that again, do we? But you think even with that, he could...
he could be involved, couldn't he? He said he didn't train. I need to go back and just check what he meant by that, whether he's injured or whether he just wasn't with the first team squad this week if he's playing a youth game. But that was his answer yesterday when we asked why not Jack Fletcher? I suppose as well, they want to prioritise these lads being able to play in the youth games, especially because it's getting to a stage of the season where they're playing for...
They're beginning to play for trophies and obviously there's the FA Youth Cup and so on. Just on Garnaccio, going back to him with the changes, did Amorim talk about his reaction to being taken off or why he was chosen as the player to take off? Because...
He did look like he was sulking a little bit and he might be in danger of having to buy the Burger Kings at the airport on the way back, to be fair. He did. He said he was tired, which you could see. He'd done a lot of transitions. He said he felt he was tired and he wasn't making the same... Tired of the start, to me. Like he was carrying something, even, maybe. Maybe. I mean, maybe that's why he was shooting from... As soon as he got it, you know, just get a goal and that can change. Obviously, he's gone on a long, barren run, hasn't he? But, yeah, he said he was tired. He did. Amorim made a point of slapping his hand, you know, as a kind of...
well done or acknowledgement as he came off so it wasn't like there was a huff there it didn't seem to me but I swear no player was going to be happy to come off but you kind of would have thought Garnaccio would understand it Yeah you saw cutaways on the telly of him shaking his head as he came off and shaking his head on the bench which always looks worse doesn't it when they're viewed in isolation you can understand why he's disappointed to come off he's probably disappointed in his contribution as well he would have felt like he should have
help United win that game. There's another fact which Casemiro has often said about this place. It's a very difficult place to come as an away player. It's a difficult place to get a result. I'll be honest, I don't feel it. I don't feel that it's intimidating. I think it's a very wealthy, middle-class city and the fans are very pleasant. But I'm sat in the stand eating burgers. I'm not on the pitch. And he's far more qualified to give comment on what it's like as a player here.
Their home record is good. They've won the last four Europa League matches. It's not particularly good in La Liga, but, you know, Ajax came here and were beaten, Dynamo Kiev, Pauk Salonika. They put five past Midtjylland in the play-off. So, look...
We're watching two teams who are injury hit, out of form and struggling to score goals. And this is what you end up with. But I actually thought the second half was much brighter. And I'm not going to say how it's set up for the next leg. But it is set up, yeah, for an interesting game at Old Trafford. Before we move on and talk about the Arsenal game, Laurie, you did a piece this week about Ruben Amorim's attempts at sort of
Maybe the first glimpse that we've had in a way of some of his techniques to try and influence his players, certainly into a half-time team talk where you wrote the article about him being short and sharp at Goodison Park and then spending the rest of the interval pacing up and down
outside the dressing room. I thought it was an interesting detail. Tonight as well, it looked like he was out much earlier than the players for the second half. And it's been another week where he's been very candid, very open, very honest in his assessment, even suggesting that there's question marks about his future now, which I guess maybe is in some sections of football.
media and maybe amongst the fan base at times but it's an interesting tactic introducing that topic yourself into interviews and the press conference. He said this quite a while ago to be honest this is something that he's kind of repeated a few different times in a few different ways I mean he even said at one point that
that the sack can be liberating for a head coach and different ways. It was a good question by Chris Wheeler, the Daily Mail yesterday, where he basically said, you mentioned this a couple of times now, so he did it in the Sky interview and then the TNT interview maybe before last week, where he sort of said, if results don't go well,
you know, the way we want, then, you know, I'll face the consequences or this club will be successful, but maybe I won't be here to see it. And it's kind of like, why are you even introducing that? So that's curious. So he was asked that last night and he said, I'm just trying to be honest with people and talk about the bigger picture and show that I don't care, which I think he meant, I don't care if...
people are questioning my future. Yeah, so I'm embracing it myself. He's done this with a lot of subjects, hasn't he? He's tackled them head on, sort of disarming them from their potency by talking about them quite calmly and openly. I suppose my one question was, what does that do for a squad of players if they think the manager is sort of maybe, I
I don't know, just considering a future elsewhere. It's a funny one. He's a very idiosyncratic manager, isn't he? This is who they've appointed. He's got that charisma. He's got that ability to talk on all manner of subjects in a very intelligent way. I suppose this is a part of what you get when you sign up for this kind of guy. And he's too honest. He is honest, but I think the fans like that. I mean, I've been walking around the city today speaking to fans and they like his honesty. They just do.
And I don't get a sense that he is anywhere close to losing his job. More a sense of, I have complete backing from the people who gave me this job. We've spoken about the plan that we're going to do. And I'm going to do it this way through hell or high water. And it's going to be difficult at times. And we can all nod along to that. But then we can say, well, wait a minute, you've just lost six games this month. That's where the problem comes in.
And that's what he's acknowledging. Yeah, yeah. I think there is something in him disarming these conversations. If he talks about it first, if he opens it up, it's almost like him then saying it and other people talking about it. It's like, well, I've already talked about it. In a way, it does sort of
water down the impact of him being asked you know should you remain manchester united managers i've been talking about this for months if the results don't improve why should it be he said to me this week when i interviewed him that you know he thinks it's fair basically that people are
beginning to look at the job that he's doing so far and seeing that the performances and the results are not good enough. And how was that interviewing? I wanted to ask you about this. I've not actually spoken yet. Very open, very honest. I think the first question was, how do you think it's going, Ruben? And he sort of let out a big sigh and started laughing. He laughs a lot, doesn't he? Which I quite like. I mean, he laughed again tonight in different moments when it's
He laughed at me a little bit when I repeated the question about the substitutes bench and he talked about you guys and it includes you in the answer almost. Yeah. I think with him...
I like the laughter. It endears you to him. I think that's part of his sort of weaponry, isn't it? That he is charismatic and that he does smile and wants you on side. And I think, you know, generally speaking, him being open and honest is being received really well. Like Andy said, you know, you speak to members...
of the travelling away support in San Sebastian and people are positive about the way he is. I think, you know, United fans can see that it's not good enough. So him acknowledging that and not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes, I'm not surprised that's being received positively. You just think there's going to have to come a point, though, where he begins to build confidence
the job up that he's doing and build the players up and build the club up again to try and get back to a point where, you know, there is something to believe in. Are these players who are struggling from confidence in need of a bit of a boost from the manager, a bit of a pep talk, a bit of a, you know, even blowing smoke up the backsides a little bit. They're young lads, a lot of them, you know, they need protecting. I think he does do that. I don't think that he hangs people out to dry. I just feel like the whole narrative around the club
from somewhere needs an injection of positivity and I don't know if the results are going to bring that so who is going to bring that what is going to bring that to try and lift things because we don't want the end of this season to be next week at Old Trafford in the second leg of this last 16 tie do we? No that would be a disaster one thing by making him put himself front and centre is that the attention goes to him and that can also act as an umbrella against your players and
You say the players are young. He's also a young coach. He's not managed at a huge super club before. You know, I sat behind Jose Mourinho last week for their game against Fenerbahce and I just thought he was like a wily old fox waiting to go in for the kill.
It was fascinating because I couldn't hear him. And the Galatasaray bench was extremely animated, like jumping around everywhere. And I just watched Mourinho just watching like a hawk. And he was an experienced manager. And there's so many ways of winning in football, including the mind games that go on.
happen off the pitch and at the moment Amarim is still in a honeymoon period there is an appetite for yet another change United couldn't afford yet another change and I do actually hear some people going I'm sorry I'm not having him this is just crap
You know, I pay hard-earned money to go and watch this team. I reckon it's going up next season and it's just absolute rubbish. You do hear that. People do say that and they're entitled to say that when you're losing most games at home. So he won't get away with it forever. The support is not unconditional, but the fans are still singing for him. They sang for him at the weekend. Heard a little report that PSG fans were singing Bonnie Tyler songs.
Last night, I will speak to my extensive scouting network and report back on that, seeing if they're copying us. Remember when City copied us with the Alanga song? I know. You know what I mean? I don't want to talk about what the topic of their Alanga song was because it wasn't a backup right winger.
Laurie, what do you think? You wrote the article, you sort of understood a little bit of the techniques that he's using as well. Yeah, I mean, is it high risk, I suppose? I think he is absolutely unashamedly being himself. From what I'm told, this is the kind of stuff he would do at sporting. It's like...
You can only be a close friend to the players so much. You need to have authority as well and giving them a short, sharp, half-time team talk is one aspect to that. We do talk about Jose Mourinho. That's the personality
for Portuguese coaches, isn't it? Where he did so much for them to sort of blaze a trail and I think there's definitely aspects of what he managed like in what Amorim does for all that he's very charming and gregarious, which I guess Jose Mourinho was. Sometimes. Sometimes, yeah. On his terms, most definitely. Well, even Amorim, obviously Amorim doesn't really want to do too much media. He said that from the very beginning. He obviously has to do a lot contractually, but I feel like
he won't probably do anything beyond that. He'll give his time and he'll give his personality in it, but wider than that...
maybe not. The half-time stuff is interesting, yeah, I like you, I think he was out before the players this time as well. Obviously he doesn't usually say stuff to them after the game either, he waits until the next morning to kind of debrief it, apart from the time after Brighton where it was a very emotional post-match inquest, I suppose, or plea from him to be better and to listen to what he's saying. So yeah, he's clearly an emotional guy, I'd
I don't think it's an act. I don't actually think it's done for effect and...
let's see what happens. I mean, clearly, you know, Omar Barada, the chief executive, you know, this is his guy, it feels like. So he's, you know, they're aligned there and I think that's a very strong relationship. And so, and he was here tonight, I saw with Jason Wilcox, the technical director as well. I think Mark Armstrong was here as well. He was. You know, the story that you broke, Andy. And Colette Roach as well was here. So you've got, you know, leadership here in support and,
yeah it feels it's just an interesting dynamic that we haven't had before have we where usually particularly under Ericsson and Haag it was I have absolute confidence that I will be a success here and even Ole Gunnar Solskjaer said the same didn't he after that Everton game I'll be a success here some of these players might not be and it's up to them basically whereas this is actually just an unusual way to approach it but if he's got the backing from above that's all that matters
And football changes quickly and at the moment it's flavour of the month and it can change. I remember coming here in 2013 and going to the Timo Town and I just thought back to myself today, there's not a single person now at Manchester United
who was there that day. Not one player, not one member of staff, maybe one director, Michael Edelson. And everybody else has changed. So that was quite a while ago. That shows how old you are. Only two years ago, Manchester United played here. And I'm just thinking who I saw on that trip. And they've almost all gone. And Adam Crafton has written a piece naming some more names about some more departures.
And I remember meeting a couple of people for the first time. There was a picture in the local Basque newspaper, which is excellent, by the way. Does really extensive coverage in print, which I really like. You don't often see that now. There'll be like 15 pages tomorrow. And it showed a picture of the Man United directors and they've all gone.
So we're talking now like, okay, this is how it's going to be. But statistically speaking, in two years' time, all these people could have gone as well. I don't think that's going to happen. There's new decision makers. But football changes so, so quickly. And just on the final point on that, obviously Dan Ashworth came in and was gone after five months and he's a sporting director. Never mind two years. Yeah, so I think...
when that's been happening, you can't really say for certain any which way on any role, really. They're definitely not afraid of change, are they? They're not afraid of change. The one constant is the fans. The people I'm seeing here, they were here last time. They were here the time before that. That is the mainstay of this football club. That is the lifeblood of this football club. I know it's the cliche that without the fans, they're nothing.
I know that the fans can't put a pass in to make a goal but the United fans good numbers here tonight couldn't really hear them that loudly if I'm honest quite far from us aren't they they've got a megaphone came through on the television did it yeah in the second half when United were dominating it was the United fans you could
There's also a big screen in front of them, so that ain't going to help anyone, is it? And there's a big net behind them as well. And I've seen some pictures. I think they've enjoyed themselves, haven't they, over here? I met someone, a bus over from Bilbao to here, and I started talking to them after a bit. They were very much enjoying themselves. And they go, so what do you do then? And I eventually said, I'm a journalist. And, oh, do you know Andy Mitton? I was like, for God's sake. So that's their reference point for journalism around Manchester United. It's correct to say.
And just one final point, maybe on the away fans as well. Quite a lot of tickets apparently going. And that's a result really of people not having to come in person to pick them up from a member of United staff. They've done away with that. That's part of the sort of reshaping of United by Ineos and Sir Jim Ratcliffe. So people now basically can buy a ticket, not turn up, but still get the credit for a future away. And I think that needs to change. Yeah, I agree with you. And it is much talked about...
by the people we've actually not talked about it on the pod have we no but the people go everywhere yeah you know it's a real big thing for them I can see why and they work hard to build up the credits and they're going to get tickets here this is a hard place to get to you need a couple of flights to come here unless you're going to come by yacht across the bay of Biscay but it will become a big issue if United start getting good again and start getting to finals yeah
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OK, well, as Andy teased a moment ago, Adam Crafton has written another exclusive on The Athletic about the reshaping of Manchester United's executive team. Three more senior members of that team are leaving the club as part of INEOS's work. Annie Hale, head of HR, Florence Lafayette, commercial director, and James Holroyd, chief commercial development officer, are those individuals. Obviously, if you've heard it,
You'll know that on Talk The Devils Extra, we talked about INEOS's Mission Impossible, which is trying to get Manchester United's team back to title-winning standards. The job that they've got on, how exactly they're going about it, the individuals involved. If you've not listened to it, go back and have a listen to that. Laurie and Andy are on it.
and also Oli Kay as well, talking about Sir Dave Brailsford's role in all of this. Have a look at Adam's article, of course, as well. If you want to set the agenda for a future extra, you can get in touch, devilspod at theathletic.com or use the hashtag TOTDX.
on social media daniel says he's feeling more positive about manchester united after listening to that extra pod which i didn't think would be the takeaway that people had but power to you daniel particularly after you've just called it mission impossible yeah well mission impossible was carried out wasn't it by tom cruise and friends repeatedly yeah we're on about mission impossible seven it took a few explosions and and you know a few near-death experiences but i think
people would go through that, wouldn't they, to see the impossible realised again? Yeah, yeah. I had a few comments about that. It's funny, isn't it? Sometimes when you think you've got a downer, people think that you're positive. Morris is like the most miserable man ever, but I used to find his songs uplifting. It's weird, the psyche on it. I suppose it depends what level you're at when you listen to it. If Morris is not as down as you are, he'll lift you up to his slightly down level. It's a Rorschach test, isn't it? Yeah. There are none of the members of staff. I wish them all well. I think they all did their very best for Manchester United. Yeah.
One of them was James Holroyd. Last year, my daughter had a nosebleed at a game. Not the sort of thing I'd ever mention on this, but he, and only he, really took care of my daughter and I appreciated it. These people are humans and...
They didn't want it to end like this. I don't know the circumstances of them going or not, but I'm speaking in more general terms of the hundreds of people who've lost their jobs. I'd wish them all well. It's just a real unfortunate side to all the changes. And some of the changes were absolutely necessary to what's going on at Manchester United. OK, let's preview the Arsenal game then. It's nice to welcome a team who are struggling to score goals as well.
Oh, yeah. Who've just hit seven in the Champions League at PSV. That was timely, wasn't it? Why do these things seem to happen to Manchester United? Six different goal scores, I think, was it? Something like that. I thought there was a chance of that happening for United tonight, to be honest, when Xerxe scored. It felt like the floodgates could open, but alas, they didn't.
How do we feel about this game? United's record actually is really bad against Arsenal in the Premier League. I know obviously we knocked them out of the FA Cup on penalties earlier this season, but we've lost four games in a row in the league to Mikel Arteta's side. It's the best ever run for Arsenal against Manchester United. Even longer than that, United have only won two of the last 13 Premier League games against Arsenal.
And it doesn't really feel like we care, in a way, what happens this weekend. We do, but you certainly have to put more emphasis on the second leg on Thursday than the game on Sunday in the Premier League. Yeah, because, you know, they're safe from relegation. It's a line, again, I never thought I'd say, but that is the reality of it, where you feel like, OK, they're not going to go down for sure now. And so all the eggs are in the Europa League basket. It's...
even though we didn't kind of get into it really in the last bit on Amorim but obviously he sort of said even that won't save our season and it was a weird answer I agree with him you agree with him yeah because the season's been a disaster hasn't it I mean United cannot be in this league position and the season be anything other than a disaster yeah I totally take that
But it would save certainly the future. Maybe it wouldn't save this season because this season would be a disaster whatever. Save the finances as well. It's just huge, right? It transforms what they can do in the market. It transforms the perception of people. It transforms the perception of him maybe if they win it and it's then a trophy. So it's an interesting sort of split conversation to have. But yeah, I think ultimately...
the second leg of this takes, you know, massive priority over the Arsenal game. So it'd be interesting to see who he picks, you know, how many substitutes he makes to kind of keep players fresher. I think that's going to be really important. But yeah, I mean, Arsenal, you know,
That's an interesting reference, isn't it, for United that Mikel Arteta came in, had to clear house to a large degree, suffered a lot of early trauma. People were calling for his departure, weren't they, quite strongly at one point. Two eighth-place finishers in a row and then fifth, I think it was. I know that Amarin does use Arteta as an example.
the way that Arteta conducted himself throughout that period, the way that he showed unwavering belief in the way to play and the way to behave and the way to conduct himself as a boss. I know Amarin has looked at that and does take something from that. Do you know where he's from, Arteta? Near you, yeah. No, he's from literally a mile over there. Yeah, that's near you. Where we are now. Didn't mean Hermston. I didn't mean Hermston. LAUGHTER
Why aren't we going out of his house? Let's go meet his family. I used to know his cousin, Maria. All right, Maria. I bet you did. I did. Not even a joke. I thought you were joking for a split second and then I realised. He has got a cousin. I'm not following up. We can somehow just... Why don't we go out of his house now or his family home and just say, go easy against Manchester United. You're not going to win the league.
Well, I actually went to a lovely little taverna that apparently is Giabbi Alonso's favourite here as well, who's another, you know, sort of local, I guess you'd say. But I don't know where Michel Arteta's favourite restaurant is. They're all from here. Lopetegui's from here. Emery's from here. And literally within five miles of here. It's just, it's the most amazing statistic, isn't it? That this isn't like saying from a region. This is like saying from Salford, a real small part of a small region.
Them lads we spoke about. They used to train on the beach down here as well. You know when I said we only had 10 minutes to preview Arsenal? I'm not sure whether this was... All right, Arsenal are good or away. Manchester United are terrible at home. Okay. Terrible at home. Thanks, Andy. Our record against Arsenal is absolutely terrible. Yeah. Going into the game, there's going to be protests before...
the match. I'll talk about the protests in a moment because I think it's important to mark that but just in terms of who he's going to select Laurie, obviously Dorgu is suspended again domestically. Chido Obi is eligible to make what would be his first Premier League start and the romance of that facing the team that he turned his back on to come to Manchester. He missed the chance to play against them in the FA Youth Cup so here's another opportunity straight out the gate. You remember that Rashford
kid making his debut in the Premier League against someone at Old Trafford as well at 18, not 17. Injury hit Manchester United, youngster burst through on the scene. Yeah, an Arsenal team on the periphery of the title race I think as well at that time. Any chance he starts him? We reflected on the last, not on Extra, but on the last podcast about whether Amrim was actually even aware when he spoke after the game against Fulham that Obi was ineligible to play
in the Europa League this season. And he was sort of saying, Carl asked him the question, that he'll assess what he thinks the right team to be for the next game. And the way that Obi played, the fact that you need to keep the forwards fresh for the Europa League as well, is there a chance?
Well, his answer to Carl was interesting, I thought, in that it was more positive than a shutdown of what he has done previously when it comes to academy players playing. Because I remember the first question on Chido Obi, actually, it was in that week where all the injuries had happened and maybe he was just sad about all those. But his answer there was kind of more, well, he's done his bit and he's doing what he's
does in the youth team and you know we'll consider it it was kind of much more arm's length than what it now sounds like um i don't know if he knew he was ineligible or not i mean i suppose you know you have to it was quite technical wasn't it the reasoning for him not being allowed and then who was for you yeah i had to pick it through but um but i don't know he's still trying to work it out i'm not his face his face is working it out i could i could see i
I'd be very surprised if he started. But you could certainly frame it in a more positive way than Hoyland being dropped in this way because he's run his heart out tonight. The bigger game is the Thursday and you're basically just saying, I'm actually protecting him. So rather than it being, oh, Chido Obi's coming, 17-year-old, at the expense of a guy that United have spent 72 million on, it actually could be slightly recalibrated and that maybe makes it
the percentage points of it. Yeah, so, but I would still be surprised. Yeah, me too. He looks very raw, doesn't he? You know, we've seen youngsters break into the first team before and...
Obviously, the quality is there, the ability, the promise is there, but he does look raw. He does look like a 17-year-old playing first-team football. He's the perfect person to bring on with 20 minutes to go looking for a goal like he did in the FA Cup because he can force chances for himself and he might just take one. He was obviously unlucky in that game. He did, and if it wasn't for a brilliant save like we said last time from Leno in that game, he'd have been the hero. He'd have scored an historic goal for Manchester United that would have remembered, I'm sure, for a long time.
Right, let's talk about the protest, Andy. The 1958 group, we reflected on it a little bit towards the end of Extra, but since then, the details have emerged, since we recorded anyway, that they are going to march from the tollgate to the match against Arsenal at the weekend. They're encouraging supporters to join that march and to wear black in their terms to signify that the club is slowly dying. What
What do you think about the staging of this, the moment and the work that the 1958 group are doing? All the lads wear black anyway. Manchester United's hooligan firm was called the Men in Black. So yeah, just come in your normal clothes. Alright, be more serious now. The wearing black was suggested for the 2005 Cup Final. That was the week that the Blazers take over. Yeah, I remember it.
And for all the noise, I'm not going to say on social media because it didn't really exist. It was a real damp squib. So few people turned up wearing black. I think now there is a lot of frustration among supporters. It's absolutely supporters' right to protest, to show the strength of feeling. The people who are organising it, they're completely well-intentioned. They are concerned about issues like ticket prices, about the glazers, about the direction of the club. A look at the...
The results and the league table shows why Manchester United fans are concerned. And it does grab headlines. How effective is it? Well, the Glazers are obviously very, very thick-skinned. But I think it's new to the new regime. I kept saying a fair wind. And they definitely had a lot of support. And I think this is more against the Glazers. I think there is some sympathy from some that the new decision-makers have got to make
difficult decisions but it is just a sign of frustration and then United fans argue among themselves because that always happens well wouldn't it be better if you didn't go in the ground and didn't pay the money anyway what's the point of protesting but still paying money for a ticket it's pretty sad that there's often a lack of unity so I'm all for everyone trying to bring some
some unity I was speaking to some lads today in the main square in San Sebastian and they spoke about how they fell out after the Glazer takeover I didn't speak to mates for years because they all had different views on what was right and I thought how sad is that some went to FC United some thought that should never go to FC United and a whole multitude of views and
in between. My whole feeling about the whole thing is one of sadness that it has come to this. Yeah, it's interesting that they point out an ongoing lack of communication and also like an assault on fan culture in their terms as well, which obviously is in line with that lack of communication and also the
the potential ticket price increases that are to come along with the ones that have already been introduced, obviously. Yeah, for sure. I mean, this is obviously a visible way of voicing your concerns. And I do think it has cut through because you've got, you know, Shijim Ratcliffe is more present, much so than the Glazers. I think the Glazers, you know, were very,
disregarding of fans protesting in this way, it doesn't matter to them really. Well, you're on the other side of the Atlantic, it doesn't really affect you, you're not there to see it or feel it, are you? Apart from, obviously, the Liverpool game that got postponed, that was a big moment and also sponsors. I think when they really targeted the sponsors in a meaningful way, I think that had an impact. So I think that that's part of, you've got the visible process, which I think is, I think football fans should absolutely do that. Clearly, this club has not been run well and people should
forever be reminded of how the Glazers took over this club and the fact that they have drained you know billions of pounds you know we're talking a billion in debt and a billion in terms of the debt that's still on the club and obviously the money that they've taken from Ratcliffe I mean that was another question that gets brought up it's like why did the money that Ratcliffe paid for his shares not go to the club to pay off the debt and it crossed people's minds sometimes that the Glazers don't care about that what they care about is money in their own pockets so you
then that should absolutely be reminded of people and obviously Must had the ticket price protest as well in conjunction with others before and I think they do good work behind the scenes you've got the fan advisory board and the fans forum that have got communication with the club that do things in a different way to try and apply pressure by dialogue and communication I think that has worked in the past to certain degrees you know with
the executive seats getting ripped out and with the TRA and the cost of beer in there and the standing section so you've got these different mechanisms of fans voicing their displeasure and thoughts on matters and at least there is still it feels like some engagement from the club now let's see obviously when it comes to ticket prices because that's
That's coming on the horizon. But I absolutely endorse and applaud fans that take the time and the effort to go and do these kind of things because it does require effort and repeated persistence. I think other clubs freezing their ticket prices for next season really adds pressure to Manchester United. And I hope that Manchester United, well, they can't not see it. Obviously, getting through in this competition...
will be financially beneficial to Manchester United or put it in another way not getting through would be
disastrous for Manchester United. United's fan culture should be protected and as Laurie says there's different ways of doing it and a lot of progress has been made. You know during lockdown so many good things were undone by that Super League announcement. United furloughed, United were brilliant in the local community. You mentioned Laurie about the price of beers. So many good things have been done in
in the last decade because I can remember what it was like I'm a bit older than you lads you know honestly I really am when there was zero communication but he got away with it because the team was so good and then when the team dropped the communication has been good so we need to know where Ineos stand with communicating with fans Jim Ratcliffe has I spoke to him I've never spoke to one of the Glazers he
He met the fan advisory board face to face at Carrington. And there's good people on that fan advisory board. Competent professional people who give their time up for free. So it's alright moaning at them. They're taking time off work to try and do what is right for Manchester United fans. Don't hammer them about it. Support them. They're on our side.
OK, well, we'll see what Sunday brings on and off the pitch. And of course, we'll be back on Talk The Devils to talk about whatever goes on at Old Trafford when Manchester United take on Arsenal. But that's it for tonight. Andy, Laurie, thank you for your company. Safe travels back. Enjoy your post-match pinchos and pints. I'm very jealous. If you want to get in touch, devilspod at theathletic.com. But for the minute, thank you for listening. Thank you for your company. And we'll see you on the next one. Take care. Bye-bye.
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