Spotlight on Manchester United Women after Villa dispatched
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This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. We are deep, deep, deep into the international break, but never fear, the podcast is here with lots of new Manchester United updates and a special focus, as many of you requested, on the women's side as well, who were in action over the weekend. Carl and Andy are with us as always, but we also have a special guest. So good morning, Charlotte Harper. How are you doing?

Morning, morning. Lovely to have you on. Thank you for coming on. We're going to focus in on the picture basically for the women's team at United, the future of the manager, Mark Skinner, the league position, some of the statistics from this season, which you did a dive into as well.

But yeah, generally speaking, where are we at? Just a really open question to kick things off with this women's side because there's not long left in the season. There are positives, there are negatives and it seems to bring something different each week at the minute. Manchester United are third and their mini trophy of the season is Champions League qualification. That is their...

ultimate goal and they're in a really, really commanding position. They were on a run of seven games that Liverpool halted last week. Maybe it was a blip, maybe that was an insight into the cracks that are part of this Manchester United but then a 4-0 win against Villa who are in a relegation battle to add that for context and

The real kind of twist is that they have an ominous run-in on the last three games against Chelsea, Manchester City and Arsenal. But they're seven points clear of Man City. Man City have sacked their manager, got Nick Cushing back in to get those Champions League qualification points.

in the bag and ahead of them are their rivals Manchester United sitting above them in the table. You were at the Etihad to watch Chelsea's last minute winner which for Manchester United's very faint title hopes was a huge blow.

But more importantly, for their Champions League hopes, it was a huge boost. And when you look at the league picture, considering the turbulent summer that we spoke of, Charlotte, this is pretty good, isn't it? It's all about expectation, right? You know, 2022 to 2023, Manchester United finish second. And they overperformed that season. Last season, they nosedived. Key departures...

from Alessia Russo on a batier in that 2022-23 period. Fifth last year and other significant departures in Mary Earps, Katie Zellum, Nikita Paris. You had the summer of moving out of Carrington and having to train at St George's Park for their pre-season. Moving into Porter Cabins when they came back. Very...

as I was told not the Port-A-Cabins of the 1980s, spacious, solid Port-A-Cabins. That's an important distinction, I suppose. But, you know, still some turbulence. Yeah. But they hit the ground running at the start of the season. A 1-0 defeat to Chelsea.

Mark Skinner was criticised for being so cagey and defensive and not opening up against Chelsea, but they were scarred by that 6-0 humiliating defeat on the last game of the season last year.

So, yeah, decent. But when I was talking about expectation, you know, Manchester United came up at the same time as Spurs. And now there's this sudden expectation that they should be, you know, consistently hitting top three, even winning. Omar Barada has set that challenge to win the WSL by 2028. But, you know, with what strategy? And I'm sure we'll come on to that. So, yeah.

In terms of expectation, there is always this expectation on Manchester United and that has filtered down into the women's team. Sitting third in the WSL and if they qualify for the Champions League, that will be a successful season for them. Karl, this idea of a team being in the top three, four places and having the option of qualifying for the Champions League through a league position seems fanciful, doesn't it? Considering the majority of the conversation we've had this season. Yeah, the...

The games at Leeds Sports Village have been a very interesting contrast to the travails at Old Trafford. It's a really interesting time in the women's team in that there has been a constant long-running question, which is how good is Mark Skinner exactly?

Going into this season, the expectation very much was it was going to be a transitional period. In fact, when Mary Epps left the club, she put a note, a status, however you want to describe it, on her Instagram story. And she said one of the reasons why she decided to go to PSG was because she thought the club was going to enter a transitional period. And inside and outside expectation was Champions League qualification wouldn't be close. But here we are. It's been a good transition.

I'm putting that in a slightly upward inflection. Good season for Skinner's team. There are questions as to have they improved or are they simply capitalising on a mini implosion from Manchester City? But surface level, this is all good. This is great. And all power to them. Why are Chelsea so good, Charlotte? I probably go to three or four women's games a season. I watch my daughter play.

every single week, so I'm really interested in it. But I just see Chelsea, Clay, I think they've won it...

the last five seasons, Manchester City seem to be pushing them. I know United will run us up in, in, in 23. Do Chelsea have bigger budgets? And is that because they have excelled in the Champions League and are allowed to spend that? And is that the next step for Manchester United getting to the Champions League, get some money there? Chelsea do have a bigger budget. Like if you look at their accounts from 2023 to 2024, their total expenditure was 13.1 million. Yeah.

Contrast that with Manchester United, that was 7.1. So nearly double. But Chelsea don't just spend money for the sake of it. They are masters of succession planning. They will recruit 18 months, two years in advance. And they're not... Yes, they signed Naomi Germer from NWSL, the star signing. They got Keira Walsh from Barcelona. They put their money where their mouth is, but...

They recruit that for a reason. But they're also recruiting like Maika Hermano, who no one had ever heard of, and then sending them out on loan, getting experience. Vika Kapteyn, a Dutch player, who is going to be the future of Chelsea. They're looking ahead always. They've got their finger on the button across the women's game.

Of course, you have the Emma Hayes era and that was stability and consistency. And it's easy to say it, but mentality monsters that they find a way to win. Sonia Bonpasture, who has won the Champions League as a manager and a player, has now come in and it has been a seamless transition. So why are Chelsea so good is because they have a plan.

And that might sound so simple, but I just don't see Manchester United having a clear budget. They don't know what they're going to spend in the summer. So if you want to say you want to win the WSL by 2028, that means you've got to get better players than Chelsea and attract players who want to play for Manchester United. This is not far away. This is...

less than you know three years yeah we've said the same with the men's team that the work has to begin already really if you're going to hit these targets I guess Mark Skinner's side are closer than Ruben Amerin's team at the moment considering the league performances this season but the money issue is a huge thing um

and you know your article that you wrote with Mark Carey looking into some of the numbers on and off the pitch for United this season we'll talk about the on-pitch numbers shortly but you said about the difference in budget for Chelsea well the wage bill situation United at the moment are seven points clear of a Manchester City side who have nearly double the budget to spend on wages each season which is quite an achievement for for the team to be able to do that

But also it points Charlotte to the wider picture of where does this women's side fall in the list of priorities for INEOS, for the leadership team that are in at the moment. Certainly Sir Jim Radcliffe's comments that

The women's side brings in 10 million, the men's team brings in 640 million. So you focus on the bigger issues before you look at the smaller issues. Again, in that round of interviews you did a few weeks ago, didn't look good. Yeah, and credit to Manchester United women's team. Their wage bill for 2023 to 2024 was 3.4 million. If you look at cities, it was 5.1. Chelsea don't disclose their wages. And for Arsenal in the same year, it was 6.2. So double United's wages.

in the same year. We haven't had United's account this year or the latest, but Arsenal's then goes to £9 million

So fair play for performing and credit to the players for the league position. So Jim Ratcliffe's comments, we've talked about this before, it doesn't help the women's team. Yes, we know that the women's team doesn't make as much money as the men's team, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have a dedicated resource that is making the most of that rough diamond that I think it is.

Because you've seen the commercial revenue that Chelsea and Arsenal have made, even from Arsenal selling out the Emirates. There is opportunity. And we've always said, you know, women's football is a startup business. You're not going to get immediate returns straight away.

But I just find it very disappointing. And even as an employee, if my boss doesn't value my work and my achievements and the grind that I'm putting out every day on the pitch, I did notice a slight turning point.

in Sir Jim Ratcliffe's comments. Yeah. And that he did admit that, well, you know, the women's team are doing better than the men's team, quite frankly. Even that little acknowledgement then feels different. You know, Sir Jim Ratcliffe says what he wants. He's very blunt. He's not going to beat around the bush. But it doesn't help.

why not use it as an opportunity to say, look, our women's team are doing amazingly. This is what we're doing to help them. These are the resources that we've put in. This is the specialism that we're going to do. Or, you know, get enthused about it because if you're saying...

whatever team wears the Manchester United badge and they should be winning. Well, you have got one of them at the moment who is doing really well. So why don't you highlight it? It's a fair point, Andy, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, results have been really good. Manchester United were second. I think they won five on the bounce up until recently. Even now, equal with Arsenal on 39 points, a much better resourced Arsenal side, as Charlotte is saying. I have seen the running. Chelsea at home, Manchester City at home, Arsenal away.

but as Charlotte said if you can get into the Champions League and provide him in the qualifier for the Champions League get another PSG like last time I thought that was really unfair you know what's going to happen next time are Barca and Real Madrid going to combine to play Manchester United at the start of next season well we can play Real Madrid I'd be quite happy with that yeah as long as it's not on their pitch exactly so

I've been a couple of times this season. I've enjoyed it. The defence is fantastic. I've not seen Manchester United women concede a goal yet. They've got the best defence in the league. One area I was concerned about was attendances. I know on a previous podcast we discussed that the game in September wasn't promoted so well. I

I think the club are really trying hard to promote the game on the 4th of May against Manchester City at Old Trafford. But I've sat in a couple of crowds of 3,000 and I've been concerned about that. Is that unfair for me to feel like that? Is Lee a problem that you can't get to Lee? Because that certainly feels that way.

And if I look at some of the biggest teams in Europe, and I've seen Barcelona women play, Real Madrid, I've been to Lyon, they're playing in the main stadium or dedicated stadiums right by the side of the main ground. We've spoken about this before. If you take your foot off the accelerator, fans are not going to be as interested if they don't know about these players. We had significant departures in recognisable names and players

women's football has tended to follow kind of the star names rather than the teams and so the club need to do their bit as well in promoting and telling these stories like we put interview requests in that are rejected why good question Andy

That just seems bizarre to me. Surely you want to get the message out there in a respected outlet. And also, like, celebrating their achievements, telling these stories. Well, raising the profile of the players as well, Charlotte, surely, because, you know, you listed big-name players in the women's game who've left Manchester United in...

recent years and you know Ella Toon stands alone really as a proper proper bona fide household name in that side now Grace Clinton is getting there Millie Turner obviously with her longevity at the club is getting there for Manchester United fans but you've lost some of the biggest names in women's football basically who non-Manchester United fans would come and watch Absolutely and this is how fans relate right

It's through story and storytelling and filling that connection with the players. And Manchester United are quite happy to fly under the radar for the women's team, given the noise off the pitch, and happy to have their kind of points tally. But that's not enough, especially in terms of attendances, as you said, Andy. I think the one thing that speaking to people that...

What they've said to me is just how together the group is. You know, they're performing in spite of the instability at the club, the chop and change. And it's really these players who get on well with each other on and off the pitch, who

work hard for each other and have that kind of glue that really sticks together but we'll come on to the numbers that can only get you so far and I'm sure the Chelsea squad are pretty unified as well and the Arsenal one so yeah

And Carl or Andy said earlier about teams around them. There's been a lot of instability at Arsenal and City and United are benefiting from that. Andy, in terms of your attendance's concerns, our producer Ali's just posted a table that's come from a website called footballwebpages.co.uk and they believe that Manchester United have the sixth highest average attendance ever.

in the WSL this season. These figures can be completely skewed if you have a big attendance at the main stadium. So I wouldn't read too deeply into the average, but...

But I have sat in crowds of 3,000 and I have thought, why are there only 3,000 people here? For a league game, for a cup game. And I think Lee is part of it because it's 12 miles from Manchester, because there's no rail connection. There's no public transport. There's no rail connection. If you want to go, you've got a carpool or you've got to drive or you get a cab. And that makes...

That makes it quite difficult to go as a first-time fan. And the diehards that go to Leeds Sports Village are phenomenal. They do carpools, they do trips, and they go up and down together. But if you are the Man United football fan who watched England win the Euros and saw their children go, oh, I really like Mary Earps.

and went, okay, I'm going to get you a trip down to Leeds Sports Village to watch Marriott's play for Manchester United. There is a drop-off there because Erps is gone and...

figuring out all the logistics to get in the car and get all the way over to Lee, especially for the nighttime games as well, where it's particularly a bit of a schlep as well. I mean, you talk about traffic in and around Old Trafford on match day, you want to see the traffic in and around Lee's Sports Village an hour before kickoff because it's all single roads. It's in and out. It's one in and out. It's a logistical headache if you're new to it. And I think that has had an effect. Losing the big recognizable stars will have an effect as well. And as Charlotte says, storytelling. There's so many...

good and interesting stories in that women's team that haven't been told properly. I think Melvin Mallard has gone from being the don't fall in love with a lone player to being every time Mallard is on the ball for United, you proper get out of your seat stuff because she's a phenomenal attacking football player. And yet there is very little of her across club media. I'm just doing a big shrug here and sort of

We talk about the plan. The plan doesn't just have to be on the field or in terms of finances. The plan also has to be how do you get people in the ground? And very often it is well-meaning people on MUTV going, please come, please come, please come, please come. Did you know that the game is on this day? Please come. Because it's just a bit finickety in a way that it probably shouldn't be if you're Arsenal or if you're Chelsea. Well, we can get behind the team, can't we? And we'll do exactly that after the break. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

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So this weekend then, the women's side are in action in the WSL against Everton. It's on Sunday at Leigh Sports Village. There's no fixture, remember, for the men's team. So if you want to get down and support the women's side, you can do that. There's then the FA Cup semi-final with Manchester City, which is the 13th of April before the run-in in the WSL. And remember that game at Old Trafford, 4th of May, the Manchester derby, Everton.

against City. Tickets are available now and it could be the crucial game to see whether United are in the Champions League next season or not. Right, let's get back to the conversation then. Where were we? Charlotte, storytelling. Yeah, one story that I find fascinating is Fallon Tullis-Joyce, who is Mary Earps' replacement. She's had a phenomenal season and

I think there was some concern regarding Earps's departure given A, quality of goalkeeper, but B, the personality and status that she brought. And as we said, attracting the fans.

But Tullis Joyce is crazy about marine biology. She will be like fossil hunting around the UK. She's a real geek. And I say that in the best way possible. She's a great character. But on the pitch, I really want to focus on that because she had expected to concede to

just over 13 goals and she has significantly outperformed how many goals she's actually prevented and so when we're talking about the numbers it's actually Tullis Joyce who has saved United's bacon here because they're still conceding

the same number of chances and quality of chances as last year. And so they're really outperforming those defensive statistics. You know, that sounds positive,

But that can only last so long if your goalkeeper's bailing you out all the time. And that's why those numbers were interesting, is that the league position does flatter United slightly because their defence has been solid, it's been decent, but they've really had to rely on their goalkeeper. And their midfield, Mark Skinner has said, has been more dynamic defensively.

With the departure of Katie Zellum, Dominique Jansen has come in and has covered more ground to cover those spaces, control their transitions better. That's been better with Manchester United. But there have been some kind of lack of creativity in that final third and a bit stodgy or turgid at times. That's improved a lot. We saw that Aston Villa looked the most free-flowing I've seen Manchester United in.

But again, as I said previously, this is against an Aston Villa side who are struggling, fighting to not get relegated. Yeah, it's certainly better than the nil-nil draw that United had against Villa earlier on in the campaign. And maybe that does speak to a little bit of a development there. Your article with Mark Carey is on the Athletic. I'd urge supporters to go and have a look at that if they want to know more about Manchester United's overperformance performance.

on the XG at both ends of the pitch. But let's talk about Mark Skinner, the head coach. He is a topic of conversation every time we talk about the women's side. But there is question marks constantly about the job that he's doing, about his future, despite the team's league position, despite some of the positive things that we've talked about. So the deadline I'm writing St Charlotte is in the next few days for his contract to be

automatically extended a one-year option to be triggered in his current deal, which expires at the end of this season? Yeah, so this time last season, he was coming to the end of his contract. In May, they gave him a one-year renewal with an option to extend for a further year. And that really screams stability, doesn't it? If you're going to your coach, have one more year. And so the crunch time now is this week.

do they automatically trigger that option for him to stay for another year? Now, if they don't, that's not disaster. That means that they could renegotiate on new terms and have a new contract for a two-year with an option, for example. He suggested that that's happening as well, right? When I have spoken to people, there are positive conversations. So the direction of travel seems to be that way. But...

his contract as it stands would expire at the end of this season. Now what I just keep reminding myself is Ineos' mantra was best in class. That's what they want and they want to win the WSL by 2028. So the question is, is Mark Skinner best in class and is he the man to get Manchester United that WSL trophy? Now in previous seasons,

That hasn't been the case. Like Mark Skinner has been steady and stable and they've kept him in place, but it just seems all TBC. If you're really committed by a manager, why did you just only renew him for one year? And my other key question is who is making this decision?

Because I've just, in my recent, you know, coverage of the men's game, it just shows me that there aren't any eyeballs on the women's team from the club. Dan Ashworth was the man appointed to make the women's team a success. And he's left. So who's filled that gap now? Well, there's interim. Yeah, interim. The head of women's football, Matt Johnson, who replaced Polly Bancroft last year, is on an interim role. He doesn't even know if he's staying. Matt...

is doing a good job and maybe they will have him stay, but it just seems so piecemeal from Manchester United's leadership. I agree with Charlotte on the direction of travel with Mark Skinner staying. I know that other coaches have been offered to Manchester United, so the job is still very attractive. WSL is attractive to foreign coaches. Manchester United is attractive as well, but I would expect him to stay. But as Charlotte said, there's a lot of interim work

So the fact that the club are doing so well, given all the instability, is a credit to Skinner and to the women's team. Yeah, absolutely. OK, if you want to know more about Manchester United's women's side, lots of brilliant writing, as you'd expect, on The Athletic. About that, we'll look out for an update on Mark Skinner's future from Charlotte in the next few days. Keep your eyes peeled for that. But Charlotte, while we've got you, can we talk about Phil Jones? Because you interviewed him yesterday.

Last week, the article again is up on The Athletic and I don't know, he's a fascinating character, Phil Jones, because of what he's been through as a player and the idea now as well that he wants to be a manager and a coach surprised me, to be honest. I thought, considering the way his career had gone...

he'd be as far away from football as he could be in some ways, but it feels like he's got unfinished business and some of the stuff that he said to you in the article speaks to that. This was a roundtable interview at the UEFA Pro Licence course that several coaches were on, including Sonia Bonpastor from Chelsea Women and then you've got Phil Jones from

as well and many more. So the media put them through their paces with different press conference scenarios. We got some time with Phil and he really kind of spoke about just adapting to life after football and being told you've got training at this time and matches here and you get on the bus here and suddenly you're left behind.

at home and you've always been active thinking, what do I do? He initially took a sporting director's course, but he said his bread and butter is on the grass. That's why he wants to be coaching. He spoke very candidly about his injury struggles and just how those knee operations left him in bits, but he played through that pain. The game against Wolves, my comeback game, if you like, after being 10, 11 months out of the game.

I mean, I played the game and my knee was in bits, like bits. And I knew I was going to play because Harry was injured. And just to get onto the pitch, honestly, I mean, it gives me goosebumps now. Just to get onto the pitch was just the biggest achievement because I was down and out. Like, I'd had so many operations. I'd had about four or five operations on my knee. I'd been to this guy, that guy. And I knew as soon as I came off the pitch and everyone's high-fiving, even though we lost the game 1-0,

Everyone was high-fiving the changing room afterwards. I just sat there and I just knew that that was probably one of the last games or my last season, if you like. I feel so sorry for Mason and Luke and I know exactly what they're feeling. For me, it was almost like an embarrassed feeling. You're at Man United, the biggest club in the world.

All you want to do is play football. I love playing football. I didn't do it for any other. I just loved playing football like a little kid. And when you can't do something, you have something taken away from you. It's difficult to deal with. You have the fans, you have social media. So I can absolutely sympathise with them. What I would say is they've got to come back to a state where they've got to feel right in themselves, feel confident that they're ready to come back and play and compete at a high, high level. But I absolutely sympathise with them. It's a really, really terrible, tough place to be.

tough time but listen I still look back now so many fond memories and

As a player, I don't think you get to look back too often at your career and what you've actually did. And when people come up to you now on the streets and say, "I remember this game in the Bernabeu against Ronaldo." And you think, "Oh yeah, I remember that game. I was all right in that game." So it's nice to talk about different memories and different games and stuff. I enjoy that. Where if you'd have asked me six months after, I'd be like, "I couldn't even speak about it." I can't thank the club enough. The club were absolutely brilliant with me. Gave me as much time as I needed.

allowed me to go and do what I needed to do to get myself in the best possible shape to compete again. You know, speaking to Nick Cox when I finished and Adam, the 18s manager, that allowed me to go back in and help and work with the 18s was... The club have been brilliant. I can't thank the club enough and I can't thank the fans enough, to be honest. I've never really had the chance really to thank them and appreciate them for the support they gave me through, you know, pretty tough times.

Phil Jones had horrendous injuries at Manchester United and he got a lot of abuse. Do you know where that came from? Manchester United fans online. And I think that really changed his personality. I know people who know him and his family really well and I don't get any red flags. Really nice lad. He got that much abuse, I think he just closed ranks on everyone. I just think he...

went to the people that he trusted. And there's a bit in that roundtable interview where he talks about the brutality of leaving the WhatsApp group. And that's it, bang, what are you going to do tomorrow? Everything's been done for you. You've got to start again. It's to his credit that he has been keeping busy, that he has been doing various courses. I know a lot who've been on stag do's with him, say he's absolutely switched on, got loads of really good ideas. For drinking games. After drinking games, in my sort of drinks, not Laurie's, by the way,

People think he's going to be a good manager. People who I respect say he's a really bright lad. Why? What's the sort of points of encouragement? Just the way he talks about football, the ideas he has. I've seen him on television and I think he comes across very well. Surprised he's taken to punditry, to be honest.

But he's good at it, Ian. I know. He's really good at it. This isn't someone who just goes in there and you think you've not prepared. This is someone who does follow-up questions, someone who disagrees. And that's not easy to do when you're new into that game. Not at all. I have been impressed by him. But considering the abuse as well, which you have to factor in, for him to make that decision to put himself back into the public eye, back into football, would have been a huge call for him. And speaking to...

the types of references that you've had, Andy. He won't have taken that decision lightly, I'm sure. It's not easy to do that. No, and other players, they have just walked away. I know players who've just deleted the social media, some of them big names, and just gone, that's me, I hate that industry. And he's obviously still got something to give the industry. I wish him well, and I think...

He shouldn't just be limited to doing stuff at Manchester United with the junior teams. I think he could fly high and surprise people, and I hope that he does. In the interview as well, Charlotte, he talked about being undeterred by the experience of some of the other players of his generation who've gone into management, and it's not been straightforward for them, the likes of Frank Lampard and Wayne Rooney. So he's clearly aware of what might be coming his way. Yeah, he's fully aware of the scrutiny.

He thinks that English managers of his generation are judged too quickly. But he's like, bring it on. He said he wants to be that guy. He wants to be the guy that turns around the fortune, is what he said. So he's obviously had time away from the pitch, kind of gone sporting director, wasn't really for him. But he just says he loves it. He loves it and wants to be involved and wants to give back. And that was a very clear purpose and purpose.

That word purpose, what do I do after this career, after I've dedicated my life to this football pitch? And he's found it and he's got the bit between his teeth. Andy, you mentioned he'd been working with the younger age groups at United. There's several players who've been doing that and it's a pathway into rising up. I think he's been coaching with some of the younger teams, just observing how a football club works away from that first team bubble and

Paul McShane is another one. Really, really bright lad, Paul. What then usually happens in football is that an older and often wiser coach spots somebody and goes, he's really good. This is what happened with Kieran McKenna. This is what happened with Mikel Arteta. What happened with Enzo Maresca. They were all good players, but that is no guarantee that you're going to be a good coach. And it's where somebody goes,

he's smart, I'm going to help elevate that person. I think Phil Jones is very, very early in a coaching path and he's clearly keeping his options open and other people do that as well. Do we want to be a sports director?

If you can just soak up as much knowledge as you can about the whole industry of football and you can be put in an interview situation, that's good as well. Because I reckon when he played in that dressing room, he's just closed ranks and thought, I don't want to speak to journalists. I don't want to know journalists. But if you're going to be a football manager, you have to communicate with journalists. You have to have relations with at least with some journalists.

As I said, if people were coming to me going, nah, or just going, yeah, or whatever, I wouldn't be talking like this. And I don't know Phil Jones, but I hear good things about him. And when I saw him on terrestrial TV, maybe a month ago, I thought that is someone who's thinking about things. And he impressed me. Yeah. He praises Nick Cox in the article as well, Phil Jones, for integrating him and helping him to work alongside the

the under-18s coach Adam Lawrence. And we'll have a special focus on the next episode of Talk The Devils on the academy side as well as the under-18s build up to their FA Youth Cup semi-final next week. But Charlotte, I think we can let you go there. It's been fantastic to have you on. So thank you very much for being on Talk The Devils as always. An absolute honour, guys.

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Right, let's round up what's left over then that we've not talked about on the podcast so far. The international players, we've got some questions as well that we didn't answer on our mailbag episode. If you missed that, go back and have a listen. We had a real dive into all the different questions and thoughts and feelings we'd received from you all. So thank you again for that.

But yeah, Denmark-Portugal has been a very interesting dynamic for Manchester United fans, Carl, to observe. The first leg saw Rasmus Hoyland do Ronaldo's Sioux celebration in front of Ronaldo, who then later said it was an honour for Rasmus Hoyland to do that, which seemed like a

Way of diffusing any sort of tension there and all the headlines that might come from the former Manchester United number seven commenting on the current Manchester United number nine. But if you thought that was interesting, what about the second leg of that tie? Second leg where basically everything happened apart from the proverbial kitchen sink. Portugal ran out 5-2 winners. This Portugal team is odd in that, I'm going to quietly say it,

they might be better off if Ronaldo comes off the bench but they're not they're going to start Ronaldo so that means there are opportunities for shall we say smaller teams or teams with a smaller talent pool to bloody Denmar so the first leg was a result for Denmar going into two legged Nations League quarter finals everyone thought it was a bad idea and then yesterday the majority of those games went to penalty shootout and if you had the Amazon Prime pay will end up being pretty good

From the Portugal perspective, Bruno Fernandes probably could have got an assist, but there was a deflection and there's some arguments, I think, goes to the Dubas-Golos panel as to whether or not Bruno Fernandes gets a contribution for one of his efforts in there. And Diogo Dalo seems to be a really important person in this Portugal dressing room, a dressing room that is being shepherded to an interesting degree by Roberto Martinez. So Portugal are doing well. Denmark are...

doing well considering. I think I've said it before. It's quite fun that the Manchester United team has become quietly Danish. And Hoyland now is in a really interesting spot in that he's only 22, but...

We've seen enough emails in to talk with Devils from listeners saying he should be swapped for Chido Obi up front. And there's also two or three players emerging, not just Chido Obi, emerging up front for Denmark too. So it's good that he's got a goal for his national team. The amount of interviews he's given seems that he really feels like he's got the proverbial off his back as well. So here's hoping to continue this good form when things return at the start of April.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the United links for this fixture and these two legs, Andy, were everywhere. Christian Eriksen missed the penalty in the first leg. Cristiano Ronaldo missed the penalty in the second leg, which he won when that was given away by Patrick Dorgue playing for Denmark. Obviously, Carl's mentioned about Hojland and Bruno Fernandes and Dalo as well. Dorgue then later set up Eriksen for the equaliser and

in the tie last night. So, you know, lots of Manchester United interest and a big point of Manchester United interest off the pitch from this tie as well. Christian Eriksen saying that he expects to leave in the summer. Are you surprised by that or not really? No, I'm not surprised by it at all. It's probably sensible for all parties.

I've watched bits of it. I'm going to go to the Nations League final. I learned this weekend it's going to be Munich and Stuttgart in June. So I've got to go to Bilbao on the 21st for us to see Manchester United win the Europa League. And then the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th of June, Diogo Dolo lifting the Nations League, having knocked Germany out in the semis. Cristiano Ronaldo is a top scorer in the competition, by the way, still. But with Cristian, no, I'm not surprised. I think we know, you know,

We're not going to be seeing him playing for Manchester United next season. We're not going to be seeing Tom Heaton. We're not going to be seeing Johnny Evans playing for Manchester United next season. So this is not a surprise to me. Might we see Jadon Sancho playing for Manchester United next season, Carl? Yeah, this is an odd one, isn't it? Yeah.

I've never heard of this before. This is utter Manchester United that you can discover there are ways of paying your way out of obligations to buy, which I've never heard of happening ever before. Yep. So as reported by David Onstein yesterday, Sunday, there is a sort of penalty fee for Chelsea if they choose not to commit to this obligation to buy for Jadon Sancho. So we've previously reported and previously discussed that

If Chelsea finish higher than 14th this season, which they will, they were supposed to have an obligation to buy Jalen Sancho for somewhere in the region of 24 million. It looks as if Chelsea have a backdoor or a clause or however you want to describe it.

Transfer News is not my area of expertise, so please forgive my language here. So if something happens and they choose not to want Jadon Sancho, they can pay five million to not do that. Which, if I'm Jadon Sancho, I'm embarrassed.

The world shouldn't even know this thing exists because I should have been pulling up trees left and right trying to prove a point so that it's a done deal and a complete no-brainer. People should be saying that Chelsea have got an absolute bargain to get me for 24 million. The fact that this is even known and that, okay, in Ornstein's report there is discussion that the winger situation at Chelsea has less to do with Jadon Sancho's form but actually has a little bit to do with Mudrick.

and the repercussions and the reverberations of his drug testing as well. But, and I've said this before, even if you don't like Jadon Sancho, even if you are the Manchester United fan that goes, I can't stand him, we spent all this time and all this money chasing him and whatnot. As a Manchester United fan this summer, it is in your interest that Sancho has a pretty good couple of weeks in a Chelsea shirt,

one maybe he can convince Chelsea maybe we should we should take it for 24 million or if only because when Chelsea paid that 5 million and he returns back to United this summer another football club in Europe goes alright we'll have a go with him we should have a go

5 million buys his freedom, Andy, doesn't it? Nah, don't buy the freedom line. I think it's really disappointing how highly he was rated before he joined Manchester United. Remember, Dortmund wanted 110 million for him. And United thought they got a result by banging that down by 20, 30 million.

for the following season. I don't watch Chelsea every week. I speak to people who do. They say he's been disappointing. He's not scoring. He's not assisting. I still think somewhere there is a player there. He's still relatively young. Unfortunately, he's an example of Manchester United's poor recruitment. But, you know, we looked at it at the time. I didn't find anyone against the idea of buying Jadon Sancho. He was really exciting. I watched him play for Dortmund with Erling Haaland. He was a top scorer.

ahead of Holland when I went to Dortmund just before COVID. So...

Disappointing for him, for Manchester United. My concern is how much money Manchester United can get for him. Well, yeah, if this is paid and then you have to renegotiate with another club when he's been rejected on an obligation to buy from Chelsea, it's going to be a hard sell, isn't it? This is Anthony Martial territory. A lot earlier in his career. A lot earlier in the career. This is where the teams who want you don't have money to pay substantial transfer fees. This is the difficulty in that Jadon Sancho's wages...

probably box him out of the teams that could most use a player like Jadon Sancho because for all of his talent one thing that became very clear with him under Eric Ten Hag is that he is not he doesn't have the explosivity or the pace or necessarily the physical strength to work out well as a winger in the Premier League he needs to have a fullback to do a lot of that running for him and

I know we've had some emails going, could he work as a number 10 in Amarant's system if he came back in? That depends on a lot of work being provided by the wingbacks. And it also depends on a lot of scrapping Sancho has, right? He's more of a poet than a pugilist. He's a lover. He's not a fighter. And if you keep looking at how Amarant keeps talking about physicality, I'm not sure if that works either. Jadon Sancho is a good football player. There is enough evidence of his time at Dortmund, both times,

to suggest that he's a good football player. I don't think he is a Manchester United football player and I don't think he's a top six Premier League football player. Everyone in this league is getting bigger, stronger, taller, faster. He just seems like an odd fit for the way the top half of the Premier League is going. Well, I can see us talking more about Jadon Sancho incredibly between now and the end of the season. Remember when we used to have a Sancho section? Well, yeah, I didn't think we'd ever need one again. I didn't think we'd ever need a sentence even on Jadon Sancho's situation. But here we go.

Right, just a couple of last bits. Manchester United are returning to Scandinavia for a pre-season friendly and they're returning their rivalry against Leeds for that said friendly as well. Yeah, Leeds are big in Scandinavia and that's a legacy of how good they were in the 70s rather than when they somehow won the league in 1992. Manchester United played Leeds last year in Oslo, not the start of this season, the start of last season.

Manchester United keep actually playing Leeds United pre-season because played in Perth as well and Leeds away following because they don't play European football is massive compared to Manchester United this is that Euro away well it is yeah because if you're not travelling to European games and you've probably got disposable income to go on your

pre-seasons but they massively outnumbered Manchester United in Perth a couple of years ago and in Oslo Cardiff and Swansea not count yeah I'm sure Leeds enjoy the trips to South Wales so this is a game in Solna Stockholm it's where United won the Europa League in 2017 Friends Arena yeah I think they might have changed the name of it now United have also played I can remember a friendly there in

2014, I think it was. It's called the Strawberry Arena now. Is it sponsored by strawberries? I told you it changed names. Yeah, you get strawberries for a quid outside. It's good, isn't it? 10 kroner or whatever it is. Why do Manchester United keep going to these places? It's because that's where the match fees are.

United would have a much bigger support in India or in Nigeria or in Indonesia but the match fees are in the United States they're in Australia they're in Scandinavia that's where the consumers can afford to pay top whack for the tickets China Malaysia United will drop into post-season Hong Kong it's the same markets all the time that's where the promoters can pay Manchester United's match fees and the club will go there so they'll go there and then they'll go on to the

the United States so we are having some clarity to a pre-season which is very similar to last year let's just hope that next season isn't similar to this one although we're going to win the Europa League yeah and we can relive what it felt like at the Strawberry Arena back in 2017 was it when Manchester United last

lifted that trophy. Right, let's leave it there then for Talk of the Devils. A lot to get in in that podcast again. A lot of different stuff that we don't always have time to discuss in depth as well, so I hope you enjoyed that. It's lovely of Charlotte to come on, but Carl and Andy, it's been great to have your company as well, so thank you very much. And we'll see you on the next one. It will be a special focus on Manchester United's academy and under-18s as they build up to their FA Youth Cup semi-final. We've got some...

interesting guests, shall we say, for that as well. We'll see on that one. Take care. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you soon. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.