United and Garnacho frustrated as Elanga pace pays off for Forest
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I was never really a runner. The way I see running is a gift, especially when you have stage four cancer. I'm Anne. I'm running the Boston Marathon presented by Bank of America. I run for Dana-Farber Cancer Institute to give people like me a chance to thrive in life, even with cancer.

Join Bank of America in helping Anne's cause. Give if you can at bfa.com slash support Anne. What would you like the power to do? References to charitable organizations is not an endorsement by Bank of America Corporation. Copyright 2025. The Athletic FC Podcast Network. This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. Here we are the morning after the night before of Manchester United's 1-0 defeat to Nottingham Forest. We'll react to that, which feels like a match we've seen before in some ways, and there's

there's obviously always new things to discuss as well. Unfortunately, we'll need to reflect on Manchester United's under-18s defeat as well in the FA Youth Cup on penalties in the semi-final to Aston Villa. But there is a Manchester derby to look forward to on Sunday.

So hopefully we can be a little bit more optimistic building up to that. One thing we can be optimistic about, my goodness, thank you so much for a fantastic response to us launching Talk The Devils Live for Autumn 2025. The tickets are selling really, really well. We did have a slight issue with Cork. We all got very excited the other morning when we thought that it had sold out almost straight away. But George from Ballycotton got in touch. Thank you, George.

He said that the tickets for the Opera House were sold out on Ticketmaster, but there are still some available on the Opera House's own website. We'll share a link to that. Unfortunately, or fortunately for you, it's not sold out yet. So if you do want to get down and see us in Cork,

there's still a chance to buy tickets on the Opera House's website. These are the dates again, 12th October, Belfast, 13th October, Dublin, 14th October, Cork, 10th November, Manchester, and 11th November, London. We'd absolutely love to see you there, so go and have a look, get the tickets, get involved, and we'll see you in the autumn.

Right, we've got a full house. Normally we only do this when we get excited when Manchester United have won a football match, but here we are. Carl, Laurie and Andy are all here. Laurie, we shared a car down, we shared a car back.

We shared the experience of Manchester United losing at the city ground. It was just a very frustrating 90 minutes, really, wasn't it? You've been very kind to me there because we did share a car, but one of us at least wasn't fully conscious for both legs of that journey. So thank you for not bringing that up. That's okay. You were dreaming about Cole Palmer, I think, on the way home.

It was so weird, right? Because I did, I sort of woke up and I thought that, you know, Ian's dad was speaking to me. And obviously, you know, I've got Colin Little's revelation in my head and I sort of start talking about, you know, Cole Palmer being from Withenshaw and that was part of the conversation. Yeah, my mum was just driving past Withenshaw at that point. Ah, so that's what happened, right, okay. You heard Withenshaw in your half slumber and jumped to action. Yeah, Cole Palmer, yeah. What? What?

Anyway, back to the game. I'm sure people don't need to know about your dreams, do they? They don't. It's the most tedious conversation in the world. No, but I felt the game itself wasn't tiresome. I thought United obviously lost the game and very frustrating. 24 shots. I think that's the most they've had in a away game without scoring since Opta started having those records back in the early 2000s.

A lot of the shots were from range. They weren't high chances, were they? And you could see that as soon as Forrest got the goal, they were going to go back to their game plan, sitting in, spring on the counter. Anthony Alanga, with his speed, holds such danger for opponents, I think, and clearly that's how he scored his first

Absolutely fantastic goal, but we can question the defending as well, absolutely. I thought overall it was a pretty good performance. They deserve more than a defeat, but then at the same time, familiar failings, not having that ruthlessness in attack, not having that clinical edge, and that is going to be a huge issue come summer and into next season. Yeah, Carl, they played well. They played okay, definitely.

I'm sort of scratching around for words similar to that. There was nothing wrong necessarily with the performance. They had nearly 70% possession. It's kind of what Forest won in a way. So it played into their hands when they took the lead. They're maybe the worst team to go a goal down to in the Premier League, although United, I think only Leicester is it, or Southampton, one of the two, have gone behind more than United this season. I think it's Leicester. Anyway, it's not important. They've gone behind a lot this season.

And when you looked at the way they were attacking, 70% possession, 24 shots, that really should make Manchester United look like scoring. But apart from the one off the line in stoppage time, I think they could still be playing now and not score. It was predictable attacks. Arsene Wenger used the term sterile possession back in the day when his Arsenal team stopped winning. And that's how it felt like. Manchester United had a lot of the ball. Nottingham Forest were content with

to let them have a lot of the ball. And outside of a couple of switches, awesome passes around the back three, they didn't really run in behind in the way that you want Alejandro Garnaccio

went into hero mode a little bit I think it was three shots off target and two shots were blocked on the 75th minute when I had a look at it they just didn't really trouble one of the most stubborn defences in the Premier League right now the injury to Ola Eina and the swap into three at the back made it

meant that Forrest were going, okay, well, we know this shape works when you are trying to hunker down and counter-attack. And like we said before, if you've got a player like Anthony Alanga on the counter-attack, I also think Ryan Yates and Elliot Anderson were very good doing the dark arts in central midfield as well. That's the angriest I've seen Casemiro look after getting booked because it was very much a, hang on, why am I getting booked for something these two have been doing all throughout the first half? So it's a lot of the same mistakes in that they probably attacked better

than I've seen from United. But again, physicality, huge problem, not just with the Alanga goal, but in century midfield. Man United's midfield two were not better than Yates and Anderson's midfield two. And then toothlessness up front. Joshua Xerxe was...

Martin O'Neill did TNT, her punditry, and he kept saying Xerxe needs to get a hold of the ball, get a hold of the game. United just weren't the protagonists last night, and that's what happened. Yeah, and they really should have been, having that much of the ball and that many shots, in fairness. I think it's the angriest Casemiro has been at a booking since he did that little twirl thing away at Aston Villa and jumped up and down on the spot, if you remember that. That was a good one. His reaction wasn't quite meme-worthy this time, but he still was extremely angry and obviously got subbed not long after that. And it just...

In some ways, it felt like United had gone back a few weeks with that performance. It was the type of display they were putting in. Okay, they've improved in a lot of senses. There are definitely things that you can say they're better at now than they were a few weeks ago, but they're sort of...

The lack of goals and the lack of cutting edge is just a theme that we've had all season and beyond. And conceding early goals, going behind all the time. So that's 11 out of the 30 Premier League games where Manchester United have failed to score. We're not even talking about wins or draws here. That's failing to score a single goal. And Carl touched on how good Forest are defensively. They've only conceded 10 at home, which is the best in the league for being clean cheek.

But it's a seventh league game under Ruben Amarin where Manchester United have failed to score a goal. It is a glaring, glaring problem for Manchester United. And he knows that. You could see him in the post-match interview. He just looked completely cheesed off because his team did dominate possession. They did create chances. I thought Manchester United played well in the first half. It was a decent performance. And I thought the team finished strongly at the end. But it was also desperate, bringing Harry Maguire on as your main striker.

was desperate. Talks about the midfield, it's interesting that both Casemiro and Agate were the first two to come off. I wrote a piece ahead of the game saying some reasons for tentative optimism. Maybe being away for two weeks makes you yearn for Manchester United. Maybe you're thinking, yeah, we're doing all right. And statistically, there has been an upturn in form, but...

The league table doesn't lie to you. Manchester United have picked up the majority of their points from teams in the bottom three this season. Forrest are in the top three. United had 24 shots away from home against a team who've really turned it around. So there's encouragement there. Forrest was 17th last season and the third this year. So it shows how things can turn. He says, hoping the same thing happens to Manchester United.

but the lack of goals is a consistent worry. Yeah, Paul sent an email in and it kind of sums up what you've just said really. Such mixed feelings about this. Nervous moments when Forrest broke on the counter, but United dominating possession, especially in the first half. Ten corners. If a match ever screamed the need for a proven goal scorer, this was it. I mean, it's hard to argue with that, Laurie. Carl mentioned Xerxe before. Zero shots. Hoyland, zero impact really off the bench and

I saw a tweet late last night by the XG philosophy saying that Harry Maguire amassed more XG in stoppage time than Hoyland has in his last 15 appearances combined. Yeah, that's horrible. That's an awkward stat, isn't it? That, I mean, obviously it comes down to that huge chance that gets cleared off the line, but 15 appearances though. Yeah. Yeah. That is stark, isn't it? Um,

And he even had that one from Dorgu, didn't he? The header that actually went way off target, but was a really good chance when you think back to it. And that's why he was sent on. Ruben Amarin, we asked him about it after the game. You've been so disciplined in sticking to three players

4-2-1 and saying that you could just put a striker on for the media or the fans to go two up top. And again, that's what he did in the end. I mean, the most unorthodox method we've seen since David James was roaming around up front for Man City, maybe. Well, he's been in English football for a few months now and he's fully embraced 4-4-2 with the big man up top. So, you know, the man who was never going to roll back on his principles...

Morning, Ruben. Maybe he's been watching a bit of Mike Bassett during the international break. Yeah, but it's needs must, isn't it? In a way, I was encouraged by that. You sort of wanted him to do it a bit earlier in some ways to try and get the goal. So what? Whatever you want to play, you need points. You can't criticise him for being so dogmatic. Not when we've criticised him for being the other. No, he's been pragmatic. But yeah, it speaks to just the glaring underlying issues, doesn't it? I mean, Xerxes overall this season has had 25 shots in the Premier League.

Rasmus Hoylander has 21 shots in the Premier League overall. I thought we'd move past Xerxe as a number nine, to be honest, as well. I thought it was one of the things that before the international break, you know, it was going to be Hoyland up front and Xerxe as one of the tens. And he said, didn't he, that it was a different game. He said, oh, well, Xerxe fits it for this particular strategy, but I don't really see why. Didn't prove true, yeah. I think if you look at Forrest's centre-back pairing,

That's a proper cat and dog pairing. And Xerxe is better with his back towards goal and can hold the ball up better than Hoyland. However, the options to run in behind there were Garnaccio, who had an off day. I'm sure we'll get to this eventually. And Bruno Fernandes, who can. I mean, Bruno Fernandes in the first five minutes has that shot on from the edge of the box. So I can see why he thought this would be better than putting Hoyland up front and have Hoyland...

not engage his core when he tries to put his back up against the centre back but also again it's actually just

He's not a goal threat to the level of club of Manchester United need. So, yeah, didn't quite work in that first half. No, and you wonder whether, you know, Xerxe having the international break off and Hoyland obviously playing for Denmark, whether that affected the decision. Certainly taking Ugarte off early looked to have been affected by maybe the international break that he had. Let's talk about him then. Obviously,

Andy made famous a song about Anthony Alanga. He got a nice reception actually from the away support and it's not like he's a player who left under any sort of cloud. I think Manchester United fans wished him well but the sight of him taking seven touches across the 85 metres in nine seconds and putting the ball in the back of the net Andy was quite painful to watch wasn't it?

You can look at Alanga different ways. Good kid, good professional. Manchester United financially made a good profit out of him. If there were any protests about him leaving, I certainly missed them. I think there was definitely a feeling of, OK, fair enough. He looks a better player than he was at Manchester United. His confidence is up. He's playing in a winning side. But it was a horrible goal to concede. It came from a moment of United pressure with a corner.

That he ran so far, that he wasn't tackled, that three or four Manchester United players didn't put a tackle in on him. I'm not sure what Garnaccio was trying to do. Other players, De Ligt's positioning looked a little bit awkward as well.

And I thought United started well and suddenly you're down and you're like, as you said right at the start, we've seen this film so many times before. And Forrest know that Manchester United struggle to break teams down. So they were quite happy to tweet. It was like 35 minutes gone.

and Forrest were effectively playing with five at the back and completely comfortable with that. Six at the back, according to Ruben Amarin. Yeah. Well, Daniil old skipped off and high-fived every single member of the Forrest bench when he was substituted with just half an hour gone, which I don't think I've ever seen before. He was delighted to come off. And the crowd are not bothered either. That's the thing at Forrest. I've seen him do this repeatedly, Nuno, and they just trust it. They're not bothered. You know, they're doing so well.

whatever he thinks is best, let's go with it. They would. I mean, Forest were down to 18,000 a few years ago. They're a club who've been down to play third tier football. This is a team who've won the European Cup twice. They've had a really, really turbulent, even last season they were 17th, but they still beat Manchester United last season at the city ground. That was probably the low point last season. That's when it really, really kicked off and it's,

I actually feel more optimistic today than I did after that defeat over Christmas last season. I just think that with time, with maturity, with some more of his signings, Ruben Amarin will hopefully get things right. But the league table doesn't lie. United are 13th. It's been a truly dreadful season. United were 8th last season, having lost at Forest.

over Christmas. And that was a dreadful season as well, being eighth. Yeah, it was. But if you go back a year ago, we were saying it can't get as bad as this. It's got worse. It's got significantly worse. The thing is, it's April. United have won 10 league games all season, minus four goal difference. They look...

Like, the top half is out of touch now for them in the remainder of this campaign. Whichever way you look at it, it's stark. Even last night, you know, Forest beating United in back-to-back home games and done the double over them in the league for the first time since Brian Clough was manager. Again, you know, historic lows for United. Yeah, I think it was 91-92. That was a famous game at Old Trafford because United were going for the league and some idiot put champions at last on the front cover of a fanzine and... LAUGHTER

And printed it and sold it outside the ground. Was it a statement campaign, Andy? It was one of my top three efforts. That is incredible. I know. Champions at last. Oh, wow, Andy.

What were the other two if that's only top three? That might actually be the top one to be honest. I still get people in Leeds laughing at me and it was me. It was my fault. It was my shout. I was a kid but I was so confident Manchester United were going to win the league. Stood outside Old Trafford. Everyone was buzzing. Forrest, we're going to beat Forrest because Forrest aren't that good. Champions at last. Bring it on. Have you got your tickets for West Ham, mate? Yeah, everything's sorted. This is going to be brilliant.

And then the wheels came off big time and I got absolutely hammered quite rightly. Imagine if that would have happened in the social media age. Oh mate, you'd never have been able to eat anything. Please listen, can someone find this copy of United We Stole? I'll find it as a speech. I keep a record of them all. Great. What does beauty have to do with sports or advanced technology or the economy?

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Can we just go back to Alanga for a minute because I thought Ruben Ameren's comments after the game, Laurie, I don't think it was personal to Alanga as such and you could probably link it to a couple of loanees.

that Manchester United have sent out in the second half of this season as well, potentially. I know people have. But his comments about players who've not done it at United and are doing it elsewhere was pointed. I think so, yeah. But I think from his perspective, he will be thinking, I'm an United manager. I have to protect what I've got. And everybody that isn't a part of that

I don't really care about. I mean, that was certainly his response to the question about Marcus Rashford before the game where people were asking him about what have you made of his loan spell at Aston Villa? Well, what he did say was it's good that he's on a positive trajectory like with Anthony at Real Betis because that ultimately is good for the club because that means that their value goes up and then they can perhaps be sold for a higher fee later on. And so the same kind of applies with Anthony Alling. He's right though. These players

And I think Andy's right in that there was no great upheaval about Alanga going. I think maybe my one point would be, I think the transfer fee felt light compared to what other people had been sold for that window. I think Morgan Gibbs White was bought for Nottingham Forest for a lot more of that window and Alanga had scored in the Champions League and Swedish International. So that was my one sort of consideration. But equally, you can see why it works at Forest because he's given the licence, they do sit in, and he's given that licence to break

fast on the counter repeatedly at United the whole strategy would have been different you know you're in the final third you're trying to break down a deep defence like last night at the city ground so his skills wouldn't necessarily have been at full flourish and that's kind of bringing me on to Alejandro Garnaccio which well I'll leave there for a moment but there's a correlation there perhaps

So I can see where Amarant's coming from with Alanga. And also, as he says, the pressure's different, the focus is different. You can have, as Kyle said in the last podcast, a few bad games for a club outside the glare of Man United and not really get too much criticism. If that's happening at United, then the focus is there. You get countless column inches written by idiots like me about it. And so...

handling that is a different kind of thing than what he's doing at the city ground it's absolutely fantastic what he is doing and he is a an incredible professional you know you see the work that he does in the gym the exercises that he does to make sure that he can you know sprint as fast as that I mean he's

Yeah, you're sort of thinking, Gannaccio, just take him out. He just wasn't quick enough. And then Masraoui is sort of hesitant because he's got the, I think it's Gibbs White, isn't it? There's a potential passing habit. It's a good run from Gibbs White. I think it got to the point where Masraoui could have engaged Alanga and kept covering the angle. And Dogu could have as well. He could have got in. And to the point, I think one of you guys made earlier about the corners, United actually did look

quite a threat from corners, bizarrely. Dalot had hit the crossbar, Casemiro had a chance, Casemiro had a chance in the second half. It was a goal from one of our corners, to be fair. Well, there we go, but then obviously it then allowed Forrest the chance to counter. So you're sort of thinking, I don't know, what's the lesser of two evils here? But yeah, I mean, fair play to Alanga for doing so well, but I can totally see where Amarant's coming from.

I think as well, you know, obviously he scored the winner last night. Obviously it was a fantastic run, a brilliant moment, a great goal. Can't take that away from Alanga. But, you know, in the game, he was a passing threat really on the transition. The goal last night makes it five Premier League goals for the season. In the entirety of last season, he only got five Premier League goals as well. It's not like United have sold a player who's scored 30 or 40 goals. And it's also not...

I don't think it's a fair expectation that every single player that Manchester United are going to sell now is going to be a failure everywhere else. When United move to the model that they're moving to, which is to move players on to get better at selling, we are going to have to accept as a fan base that some players will go elsewhere and will do well and will maybe do better than some of Manchester United players. Unfortunately, that is the risk of selling young players. You can't stockpile all of them. You can't keep all of them.

And it's probably something that we will have to get used to because historically United haven't sold very well and haven't sold... For that reason, to be fair. For being fearful of what they might do elsewhere. Yeah, but then you can't operate like that. You have to be able to accept it. Laurie's completely right in terms of this is what Alanga's good at. Space to run in behind, on the counter-attack. This is where he's most dangerous. He played a pre-season game against Atletico Madrid ahead of the 23-24 season. And...

Alata Kometovic just hunkered down deep and there was loads of chat on this podcast all over the place. United need a right-sided attacking player. United need a right-sided attacking player. We can't break down stubborn defences. Alanga's not good enough. And when things...

are reversed and United are playing 70% possession and defences are deep Alanga's not going to do as well he went six games he went six Premier League games this season without scoring there are teams in the league and they will it will happen a lot more next season when teams go okay this is Nottingham Forest they finish in the Champions League and that's stop running at them and see how they break down a deep defence and that'll be Alanga's next step but

selling Alanga was not complained about and he's completely correct there was no protest there was no whatnot there was loads of excitement over Jadon Sancho being as a right-sided attacking player there was some excitement over Anthony being a right-sided attacking player these were meant to be the players that could take United to the next level and then they've just completely fizzled out and I think this is this is also the thing of okay United do need to get better at selling they also need to get they need to get better at making sure they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater

We've all spoken before. Alanga is a gym rat. He got described as being refreshingly boring by someone at the club when he was there and the fact that he lives in the gym. When United were...

Under Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, at their best, that full-flow counter-attack you had, runners, peak Marcus Rashford running, anti-martial when he could sprint, plays like Alanga. Well, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer said, if you ask Alanga to go down to the quick ground and get me a can of pop, he'd do it, no question. And it was United at full-flow, spaced the running behind, and could run. And you look at United against Forest in the times when they did manage to run in behind, and it was just Garnaccio by himself. So the problem that's happened recently

steadily, since Oli left and the Rangnick years and whatnot, is this sort of... You get so focused on how do you improve Manchester United and get them to push higher and higher, closer to the table, and you've forgotten the necessary physicality that's needed to keep them from dropping out of that top eight, shall we say. Because, I mean...

You can look at what Garnaccio is trying to do and trying to stop Alanga. He's not as strong as Alanga. He's not as big as Alanga. And everyone in the league now is getting six-foot giants. And this is why Amarin is going on and on and on about physicality. You just need to be able to run and fight to the level that Forrester is doing now. Because if you can't,

Teams like Forest, teams like Bournemouth, teams like Brighton, teams like Palace, they're just going to punch you. Let's talk about Garnaccio because we had quite a lot of messages about him. Daniel, a Mancunian in Walthamstow, we said see you at Soho Theatre. See you there, Daniel, says another frustrating attacking performance. I'm beginning to wonder if we're going a bit easy on Garnaccio, especially compared to the heat Hoyland and others have faced. I don't think I've seen Garnaccio as frustrated, Andy, as he looked in that second half last night. There's no question he's trying, but...

but sometimes the energy maybe needs to be diverted a different way. Yeah. I think his attempted tackle on Alanga was not effective at all, but what frustrated me more about him was when he lost the ball inside his area, which allowed Gibbs White to have a shot on goal about five minutes into the second half. And he was frustrated. He was booked deservedly, so...

And you still see pockets of sublime skill. He took the ball beautifully about 20 minutes from time. And that effort was blocked by Yates. And sometimes I look at Yates and think, love a player like that for Manchester United. You can see why he's a hero with the Forest fans. And he's having a frustrated time. He's not had a productive season. He is a young player. We should cut him some slack for that. I think his decisions sometimes hurt people. But he's a growing young man. I'm just...

I'm reluctant just to start hammering every single young player. Yeah, definitely. Because one reason someone like Elanga does well, not that he was scapegoated so much at Manchester United, but there were moments, as Carl Reitler touched on, you can't just hammer every single young player. And the pressures of playing for Manchester United are very real. The abuse is very real. And I'd be more inclined to protect, although I do get frustrated sometimes.

When I watch Garnaccio, I have been frustrated a lot of times this season. I think when he's blaming the fans, I'm like, no, you've read this situation completely wrong here, but he's a young lad. And hopefully, not just him, but the team and the manager will mature for the better. The team will get better. The players will get better. There's some very talented young players there. Even Eric Ten Haag has said sort of,

post losing the job you've just got to give some of these players time Josh Xerxe is a very good player it seems strange to be supportive of Hoyland but I did feel he tried to play like a number 9 when he came on last night but clearly he's not scoring enough goals the team are not scoring enough goals the confidence is low

That's why I was encouraged going into the game, but losing the League Cup game affects the mood, the Youth Cup game, sorry, and then that. And then we've got Derby next, we've got Newcastle next. It's a really tough run of fixtures. And even the teams lower down in the table, Manchester United about to face, like Wolves, like Bournemouth, they've both beaten United already. So we could have more forest teams who do the double over Manchester United and not the most glamorous teams either. Yeah.

And this is what happens when you're 13th in the table and you don't score enough goals. Yeah, absolutely. Laurie, your article on the Athletic, your match reaction focuses in on Garnaccio's performance, the situation with him. There may be

Well, you've analysed how much of an awkward fit he still is for this system for Ruben Amarin. One of the lines that stood out to me was one of the stats in the piece. 11th most shots in the Premier League, Garnaccio, this season, but only the joint 61st highest scorer. If that...

That tells a bit of a story in itself, really, doesn't it? Yeah, there was something that I kind of just wondered, you know, when you, you know, he's having a lot of shots, I wonder where he stacks up against other people. I actually thought he had the most for United, but that's actually Bruno Fernandes, who's got 78. So, but they're both having quite a few shots. And yeah, but he, you know, he's high up there, you know, there's nothing wrong with having shots and everything.

Antoine Semenya is having quite a few for Bournemouth. For example, he was higher than Garnaccio, but he's only got seven goals. So, you know, for all the attention that he's getting, it's not like incredibly different to what Garnaccio's doing. You know, Garnaccio on four goals.

So, yeah, but clearly it's the quality of shots that he's having, right? I mean, we saw it yesterday. The best chance he had was that Yates one that was blocked and that was unlucky. It was a really good drive. And when he switched to the left, so at half-time, Amarin switched because he put on Hoyland, he put Xerxe as a number 10, Bruno back and put Garnaccia from the right to the left. I think that...

You've reminded me of something. Do you think this helps the players, Laurie? The number of switches that they're having, even in game. I mean, even the centre-backs, left and right, got switched at half-time last night. Bruno Fernandes played in three different positions. Is this really benefiting people, do you think? I think for Bruno Fernandes, that's one thing. He's 30, isn't he? So he's experienced and he can handle those different requirements. I think for someone like Garnaccio, whose natural ability is clearly a bit like a Langer, getting the ball in open space, driving his opponent on the wing,

cutting in and having that stamina to do that throughout a game I thought it was good that he lasted the whole game I thought Amarin keeping him on he could have taken him off but actually said no go on keep trying but that sort of channel he's just narrower isn't he in these two number 10s he doesn't get those chances to go out wide as much but when he's on the left I think he does a little bit more and I think Amarin I could be wrong here but I'm just guessing I think he swapped

Yoro with Marzraoui for that kind of reason to make sure that at least Garnaccio had the same person in the centre-back role behind him that was kind of looking for him with passes so in that way Amarant's trying to adapt for the players to make it not as confusing or as much of a different picture but

But yeah, he has shots from that edge of the box, cutting in. One of them was okay, sort of just clipped the top of the netting, but there was that one that went into the Bridgeford road stand and the Forest fans jeered and they were revelling in the fact that he booted the ball onto the advertising hoardings and he kind of lifted up his shirt and you could see he's kind of really ruminating over this whole thing, angst. And Hoyland, to be fair to him, saw that and went over to him and kind of gave him a bit of a pep talk to kind of say, no, keep your head up.

At the end of the game, he collapses onto the floor on his back and you can sort of see, I think, Mason Mount probably thinking that's probably not the best look. I know you're exhausted mentally and physically probably, but he went over and kind of lifted him up and gave him a pat on the head. So you can see a player here who's trying very hard in his own way, clenching

clearly not quite getting things right. I mean, Dorgo thought it was a bit of a bad game and that understanding between those two when they're on the left clearly needs work. But it's not quite working and is that because the whole system doesn't suit him? So we can flip it. He might not suit the system but equally the system might not suit him and we've got to appreciate that. But,

But clearly he's someone that cares because if he didn't care, he wouldn't be having these kind of outbursts. And as we say, he's only 20, he's very young. And I suppose Hoyland, to the original question, Hoyland's 22. So maybe that's why there's a bit more, and he was bought for significant money. So maybe that's why there's a bit more focus on him than Garnaccio. And obviously Garnaccio scored in a FA Cup final. So you've kind of got that credit in the bank. But yeah, it's a, I don't know, it's a,

fluctuate on Garnaccio. I think it does open the question, doesn't it, for what happens in the summer? We had all that talk in January. Napoli were interested, made a bid, £40 million. You kind of wonder how this all fits into the end of the season. I think the one point to make actually is Amram was very

defensive maybe is the right word he's obviously not been shy of criticising him previously this season when he dropped him from the derby and in other moments but actually after the game last night he was he backed him really he said he was doing the stuff that I want him to do running back so like with the Alanga chance okay he didn't execute it but at least again he's showing that determination to run like a mad dog like Amarin wants and

but it's just not quite working. He said, I could have pointed to loads of people where it wasn't working in the final third, so let's not single out Garnaccio. But I thought that was interesting that Amorin took a, you know, considering he is so blunt with his appraisals at times, he kind of took a softer approach there. Yeah, if you want to know more about Garnaccio's performance and also the situation around him at the minute, go and have a look at Laurie's article on The Athletic.

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Let's reflect then on Manchester United's defeat, unfortunately, as well in the semi-finals of the FA Youth Cup on penalties against Aston Villa after a 1-0 draw at Villa Park after extra time. Laurie, you've done back-to-back night games in the Midlands. Beautiful. What a place. Your old stomping ground, obviously. But yeah, in the end...

a very disappointing finish to Manchester United. It's extremely exciting and promising youth cup campaign. Yeah. And I got a positive vibe getting down there. It was glorious sunshine. I was driving into the car park and I saw Sir Alex, you know, speaking to a fan from his car in the car park. I was thinking, okay, it's a big occasion. He's made the trip down, which was a nice touch. I thought, um,

And yeah, it was just one of those games that could have gone either way. I thought United's team were really good in control. They obviously conceded early from a free kick deflection, sort of a bit of an

misfortune about it but equally the war kind of separated but they got control of the game and they were creating chances and James Scanlon did really well to equalise and you're sort of thinking right they're going to go on from here and seal it like they had done at the Emirates but Villa street wise team good defensively and they were a threat on the counter and they did have really good chances they missed a penalty and then it comes to the shootout and yeah Sam Proctor I think it was in the Villa goal

couple of really excellent saves to be fair and I mean he had certainly he sprung into life after sort of having quite a few ailments in extra time where I think he was maybe you know gearing up for penalties to make sure it got to that point but yeah I mean the Villa fans absolutely loved it they were

huge celebrations from their players. You can see how much it means to them and you could see the kind of desperation from United's players. They applauded their away fans. A really good voice by the way, the away fans, a thousand or so singing throughout. So that was, you know, again, nice to see. But it is just, it feels like such a shame that you don't get that Old Trafford final that might be against Manchester City. But as the guys were saying to us on the podcast last week, you know, hopefully even in defeat, you can kind of

why it's happened, make adjustments and use it for future years. Yeah, let's hear from Adam Lawrence. Obviously, he was on the podcast with us for that Academy special and this is some of his thoughts after the game. We were obviously trying to take the game to them but we just lacked that little bit, last little bit around the box and in them final moments where

Normally we'd be more clinical and that ruthlessness in and around the box was probably lacking in that over the course of the 120 minutes. So once it goes to lottery, in terms of the penalties, it's a lottery and we're more disappointed that we couldn't get the job done in 120 minutes. Naturally, we've come up short today and obviously congratulations to Aston Villa.

but across the competition, the games that we've had, the opposition, the levels of games. That's what we want to expose our players to. We want to expose our players to the best games, the best opposition, the best level. Ultimately, we want them to aspire to get to the level where they're playing in stadiums like this every week.

and in front of fans in terms of creating that. And I have to say, in terms of from the start here, the Manchester United fans and the support that we got from them was absolutely incredible. So we felt that throughout the competition as well. You obviously want the boys to think about these things and realise how special it is, but then they've also got to be really focused on the performance and the game. But I think they know in terms of how special things like that are and those people supporting them. So they definitely felt that.

Yeah, Andy, obviously a huge disappointment. But when we spoke to Nick Cox, he was talking about, and he has talked about with us previously, using these moments as growth for the players. Obviously, there was the defeat to Swindon, which was an even bigger disappointment in last season's FA Youth Cup. And that was an extremely successful group of under-18s. This side, again, have been brilliant this year. It's not necessarily...

It's not the end of the road for these players by any stretch, is it? No, they bounced back really strongly after Swindon last year, which was a major shock. Shocks happen in football, more so in youth football. I think the feeling from the people I've spoken to is

inside the academies that some of the players didn't turn up. But that's football. I know they definitely appreciated the support. A lot of United fans went down there in B1, B2, B3 in the main stand at Villa Park. The pressure got to some of them. But it's just really disappointing because...

A final at Old Trafford in front of, I would have been confident of getting 60,000 there, like against Forest a couple of years ago, 2022, when we did the best podcast ever after the game.

And it's not to be. And there'll be players who regret that throughout their career. That is football. And it's just really unfortunate to lose any game on penalties. I thought that Villa certainly had enough chances to score as the game went on. They'd had a couple of players who played first team football as well. But I think United will show...

That away following, the fact that it's Alex Ferguson turns up, the fact that it's still a very good youth system. We saw that listening to the people from the academy last week. Look at the league positions where the young Manchester United players are at.

look at the players who get first-team opportunities. The pathway to the first team is very real at Manchester United, but you can't pretend that a defeat in the semi-final on penalties doesn't sting. Penalties sting big time. We've gone out the FA Cup on penalties. We've gone out the Youth Cup on penalties, and it's horrible. Yeah, it certainly is. I think we need to cheer ourselves up a little bit. Here's a reminder of the last time we faced Manchester City. Martinez is through. Hamad through the middle. He's got a touch on it. In the...

Well no Ahmad Karl, but optimism? Facing a Manchester City side who have recovered a bit from the nightmare spell they had before Christmas, but they're not what we know, are they? By any stretch. I think I said on a previous podcast that I'm oddly confident about this game. That confidence might have taken a knock.

after watching the defeat to Forest. Look, I heard a rumour that Erling Haaland is scared of Aiden Heaven and Yanni Joroh and that's why he's got an ankle injury. That's what I heard. That's what I heard. You'll get yourself in trouble, Carl. Pep will be happy. I heard he's running from the grind. Look, it's a derby. It's a derby if we're talking about physicality. That City team, they've got a soft underbelly nowadays.

This United team shouldn't need any extra encouragement to run at a team that we know, if you run at them properly and you hit them hard enough, you can hurt them. So I don't want to hear any stats about the poor ex-G of Hoyland from this derby. I want him to empty the clip continuously. I want Garnaccio to get at these City defenders in the same way he did today.

during the FA Cup final as well. This is a very winnable derby and you have to show up. Yeah, we want XG over performance, Carl, don't we, in this Manchester derby? That's what we want. Yeah, on Haaland, I mean, seven weeks out, obviously no chance of featuring in the derby. 21 Premier League goals he's scored this season. The next player's voted on seven. No one else has got more than five. Very reliant on him, Laurie. When you look at the team, even...

The goalkeeper situation has been a bit unclear at times this season. In defence, they're still suffering with absences. Kusinov and Diaz are the last centre-back standing almost. Right-back has been Rico Lewis or Mateus Nunez. Hopefully it's Nunez after what happened in the derby last time. Thank you, Mateus. Midfield looks pedestrian. Obviously, they're missing the centre-forward. I could keep talking and it only makes me feel a little bit more confident that a Manchester United side who we...

improved obviously last night's a step back but a loud Old Trafford a Manchester derby a team in Manchester City not quite what they were I mean Conor

Yeah, you've sold it to me. I feel like Man City, obviously the way they play, will be more open than Nottingham Forest. So perhaps that suits more naturally. You know, Rasmus Hoyland running in behind, Alejandro Gane actually getting the ball and driving with it. And I also thought the fact that you've got a bench that's looking a bit stronger for United now, Mason Mount getting on and actually, you know, his first minute since the derby away when he started that game and it was a big

moment for him to start and then he pulls up injured and he was 12 weeks out with a hamstring problem and he looked sharp in the one moment that he had where he got the ball and nearly scored so I think that's reassuring for United I just think that maybe, I don't know, City they do have a soft underbelly don't they but I thought they were pretty good at Bournemouth to come back from

Second half to fight back. Yeah, Nico O'Reilly's obviously a very good player. It seems like he might get more of a run towards the end of this season as well. Not for this. Not for this game. I bet your Pep does not throw a kid in for this. Off the bench. He did help change that game. He's 6-5, Carl. Played in the community shield against United, to be fair. To temper my bullish talk earlier, I am a bit concerned about Mamouch's

Because he does run in behind very well. And he does offer a more varied point of attack. But also, just run at him. Just beat him up. Yeah. Matthijs de Ligt will have him in his pocket. That's another point to make. I thought Matthijs de Ligt was very good defensively against Forest. And I think he's been pretty good for a while now. I prefer him on the right-hand side of the back three rather than the middle. So you think Maguire comes back in? I think Maguire... Yeah, Maguire's middle. No, Maguire's up front, surely. Yeah.

More XG in stoppage time than Hoyland's last 15 appearances. You can't put that man back at centre-back, surely? Hasn't John Stones played up front for City at times? He's played in midfield. He won't be playing anywhere at the weekend, though. He's one of the injuries for them. Andy, Hoyland's goal against Bournemouth at the weekend made him the first Premier League player to score 30-plus goals in his first three seasons in English football since. Oh, I didn't know where that was going. I was just going to say, great, good for him. Is it rude?

It's Ruud van Nistelrooy, and obviously tonight, before the Manchester derby, we're recording this on Wednesday morning, Manchester City take on Ruud van Nistelrooy's Leicester City. And Andy, you know the question I'm going to ask you. Are you available to make your way to the Etihad Stadium later to ensure that City's derby build-up is less than ideal? I can't be there. I don't want to be there. I'm stunned how bad City have been this year. I thought they'd win the league. They might not even play Champions League football anymore.

I think United have played them once this season already in a league game. What was the score? I don't know. Were you not listening two minutes ago? I think it was one of the rare buzzing moments of the players absolutely going mental in front of the City fans, celebrating. Moment of the season. It was. Really? It was. That last five minutes. Have we actually become the team who lives for winning the derby now? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I hope the Europa League brings something more, but...

Yeah, I mean, Arsenal in the FA Cup was decent as well. The European form is fantastic and getting a draw at Liverpool. So, FA Cup third-round wins and derby victories. That's our season right there. This is our reality. This is what happens when you're lower end of mid-table. City are poor away. They've got the 10th best record away from home. But the problem is United are poor at home. United are 12th at home. United have lost more games at home in the league.

Can you believe that? Manchester United have lost. In April. I think it's really hard to predict. I'm not going to come out with the cliches, but I do think that anything can happen. I feel that what happens in the Premier League...

is now secondary to what we'll be talking about next week when we're going to be in Lyon because that will make or break the season. It just keeps everything going. If we would have gone out against Real Sociedad, it would be flat and flat at the moment. But we still, the season is still alive and I am thankful for that. But what happens in the league, you know?

Get a good result against City, great. We pick out some good performances. There's always chances for improvement. Up to 12. There's chances for Manchester United to start scoring goals. You know, if the team finish the league strongly, then the optimism some of us may have thought in the first half at Forest will just continue and be like,

Also, it's not like the Cup and the League are completely separate. You want the League form to pick up so it fires your Europa League form. There's a lot of people who say, just write the League off, forget about it. I don't think as a player you can switch on and off from match to match. It's confidence. It's absolutely a confidence thing. You've got the derby, then you have to go to Lyon. Then when you get back, you have to go to Newcastle at St James' Park. Tricky games, yeah. Amren's going to use the word physicality a lot in the next couple of days. He's going to talk loads about the physicality need for City. He's going to talk loads about the physical threat

of Lyon and how that was different to that posed by Real Sociedad. And he's probably going to mention that just disgusting midfield trio and disgusting as a compliment that Newcastle have. I think the turnaround between Lyon and Newcastle is going to be quite painful, but this is it, right? These United players are going to have to gut it out and they're really, really, really going to have to start using their elbows and engaging their core for when they're scrapping with these

opponents for the next couple of days you can't take your foot off the accelerator in the slightest otherwise we're going to be here not this upcoming Sunday but the Sunday after that and we could all be looking quite sadly down the pint glass well let's hope the celebratory pints on Sunday evening let's hope when we record this next podcast we start with more glorious Manchester Derby victory commentary lines I hope so

Do get in touch, devilspod at theathletic.com. Also remember our live dates as well. All the details are in the show description to buy tickets. You can look at our social media for that as well. Tickets are selling well. So yeah, we'd love to see you there. And thank you for everyone who's bought one so far. We'll be back after the game on Sunday. But for the minute, Laurie, thank you. Carl, thank you. Andy, thank you. And thanks for listening. See you on the next one. Take care. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.