United flop in Bilbao
49:34 Share

Selecciona entre una gran variedad de cupones digitales y utilízalos hasta cinco veces en una transacción. Mira nuestro app para detalles.

Kroger, fresh for everyone. At Tanger Outlets, find all the best brands all on sale every day. Step into the season's newest arrivals and save big on the styles you love. Shop Under Armour, Michael Kors, Crocs, and more. Hurry in for amazing deals from the brands you love. Up to 70% off only at Tanger Outlets.

In honor of Military Appreciation Month, Verizon thought of a lot of different ways we could show our appreciation, like rolling out the red carpet, giving you your own personal marching band, or throwing a bumping shindig.

At Verizon, we're doing all that in the form of special military offers. That's why this month only, we're giving military and veteran families a $200 Verizon gift card and a phone on us with a select trade-in and a new line on select unlimited plans. Think of it as our way of flying a squadron of jets overhead while launching fireworks. Now that's what we call a celebration because we're proud to serve you. Visit your local Verizon store to learn more.

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

This is Talk of the Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. I'm here, Andy's here, Carl's here and Laurie is here. We are looking over a football pitch covered in gold and silver ticker tape and glitter. We are in the San Mames Stadium. We've watched Manchester United lose the Europa League final to Tottenham Hotspur and we'll go through every detail that we can on the podcast today.

The performance tonight, the impact of the result moving forward, the opinion of Ruben Amarin, the opinion on Ruben Amarin and everything in between. We'll do our best to pick people up but it's going to be difficult Andy isn't it? Yeah I feel really low. I can't recall feeling lower than this as a Manchester United fan.

In my life. Really? Really. In my life. I mean, it's an obvious question for me to ask because I know the reason, but why? It's a team who just had the worst season in my life, so I can't talk about the relegation season because I know I'm old, but I'm not that old. And...

like a lot of United fans, invested what I hope we had into winning the Europa League, which was a huge game. It was Bill Bauer bust. It was about getting into the Champions League next season and we didn't win and it's bust and I just feel really, really low about it. I've just spoken to Luke Shaw, to Diogo Delo. I don't think I've ever interviewed a lower footballer than Luke Shaw. I'm sorry, I just...

You can try and be like... I don't know how you lads feel. I'm sure you're going to say how you feel in this one. I just feel absolutely devastated. And maybe it was wishful thinking, hoping that we would win this. I think European football is really important for Manchester United, for the financial make-up of the club, for the reasons we've outlined multiple times on this podcast. And we don't have that. Next season will, I think, really drag on.

I thought it was quite interesting that Shaw and Deleuze both said emphatically that Ruben Amarin is the man to take Manchester United forward. I've just seen Jim Ratcliffe walk through with all the senior executives. I've just spoken to former players, just spoken to three different Tottenham players as well, against a backdrop of them singing songs, just talking.

surrounded by joy. I'm just gutted. So many little reasons. My little brother's come here, it's his first ever European trip, 18 years old, and you just feel for people on that level. I think it's always hard when you lose a final in any sport, especially in football, whatever age you are. I remember being a kid and losing finals, but when we've lost finals before, at least we've known that there would be European football matches.

So when we lost him in 21, we knew he'd be Champions League football next year. Now there's nothing, absolutely nothing. And I feel really, really low about that. And I don't... I've just watched Ruben Amarin do like four or five interviews. I just stood next to him watching him and he speaks fantastically well. I hope he is the right man to take Manchester United forward, but I am devoid of...

of much optimism at the moment I feel like ending the podcast there to be honest I'm sorry nailed it to be fair I was like should we just go get some calimochos back on I've had

Call to eat as well, so you're talking about people who are grumpy, I'm hangry or whatever, is it hangry, is that the right thing to say? I'm not hangry, I can't even think of the term. You set the tone didn't you, we came in and okay, world's smallest violin but there's no food and we're kind of thinking. Oh first world problems, talk about the team's issues, the fans have spent a fortune, people are sleeping wherever they can tonight. You said about what people have invested, the hope they've invested.

the finance have invested it's cost a fortune it's the most expensive Europa League final ever for people travelling and they've watched that I just think let's get to the Nueva Plaza again that was that was nice this afternoon when there was atmosphere and there was people joyous and optimism and hope before they watch any football well this is it I mean hopefully people have at least enjoyed the journey because I know they've come all different kinds of crazy ways I know someone's

more than one person's got a flight back via Marrakesh to make it home so incredible credit to the guys that have made it out here and they did back the team strongly by the end of the game though as soon as the final also went a lot of people exited and it was quite interesting there was I don't know a few dozen fans a few hundred maybe that stayed and I think they wanted more from the players at full time more acknowledgement the players just it seemed to me totally drained sat down

apart, all sort of siloed, which I guess maybe that's just the natural consequence of defeat and you don't really want to be having small talk with anybody. You just want to kind of be in your own thoughts. Amarin going from sort of player to player a little bit, but mainly walking up and down on his own. You could see he was ruminating in his own mind and yeah, he said in his press conference afterwards, sort of on a similar tone to Luke Shaw and Diogo Dalo, that he is still confident he is the guy to

build this club back to where it needs to be and he's not going to quit but if the board if the fans think he should go then he's going to walk away without any conversation about compensation which is a kind of interesting note to take but it was a bit combative in his performance

post-match press conference as well because he was asked about not starting Alejandro Garnaccio when he came on obviously he brought a bit of dynamism had that shot that Vicario saved but he said I remember the big chance that he missed against Athletic Club in the home leg and you know I kind of have to make my decisions based on all of that and so Mason Mount started but it was a grind of a game wasn't it where United were the better team they you know I think they were, Carl's winting at me but okay Tottenham

that is a, okay, it's a defensive performance, but he's bringing on Danso for Brennan Johnson. He's going, I mean, I thought Tottenham were a team that played with a high line. I know they're not in this competition. He's changed his approach, but that was absolutely a hill that was Andrew Postacoglu who was going to die on. And they've obviously changed things and they've got the lead.

with a kind of goal that they were planning, you know, crosses in from the wing, driving through United's midfield. So that's where United looked vulnerable. They got the goal and then they just sat back and United weren't able to break them down, weren't able to score the goal that they needed to. Why were you disagreeing, Kyle? United weren't the better team.

United have lost four times against Tottenham Hotspur. Tottenham Hotspur team that is one of the very few Premier League teams that's below them in the Premier League table. If Tottenham hadn't won tonight, it would have been the worst Tottenham team in 120 years, I think, according to their record across this season in all competitions. So you've just lost to a Tottenham Hotspur team that's gone to go down in history as one of the worst, at least in Premier League history. What does that make you? And that's... I think I'm numb to this. And...

I thought I'd be really, really angry. I thought I'd burst out in tears regardless of the result. And I just looked at it and I just went, this is a fealty test. There are fans who have opened up their hearts, their minds, their wallets and their emotion in the hope that Manchester United can repay that and give them a great cathartic relief. And what...

you've been given back instead is a limp lackluster performance poor execution of a plan A no plan B the thing about

the phrase the hill to die on is that it eventually involves you dying and and you didn't want to die today too many spotlights too many people watching too many people calling him this one and that one so he didn't die he played a 5-4-1 when he had a goal up changed the game his fullback stayed back he had that very combative midfield that we mentioned the other week legs

And we know Man United aren't very good against legs. And what you saw from United in the second half was not much. Trying to play perfect crosses against a full-strength Tottenham Hotspur back four that are content to head crosses away.

You have to be perfect. You haven't been good for basically a calendar year. United have struggled to break down that sort of approach from an opposition much longer than Ruben Amarin's been in charge of the team. It feels like a problem that even maybe predates Eric Ten Haag for United to be able to do that on a consistent basis. Just to spell out Spurs' performance, it feels hollow even saying this to be honest, but 27.7% possession overall.

Completed just 115 passes in the entire match. Three shots, and I think one of them, the counting, is Brennan Johnson scoring. I'm not even convinced he touched it. Maybe the counting, the chance before it hit Luke Shaw's arm. And all of those are the lowest ever recorded by a team in a major European final. That's the frustrating part as well. It felt like they were there for the taking. Yeah, they were there for the taking. I felt if United would have scored, they would have got another one.

Spurs are missing players. What did Spurs do well in the first half? Their crosses, well, if the goal came from across, they made them count more. But right from the start, United had 65-70% possession right through the game. As soon as they got the goal, which was a poor goal to concede, they just sat back on it and defended it. And United really struggled to break teams down, really struggled to score.

A couple of off chances. It was just horrible to watch. Adding the tension, and there was a lot of tension. I think two teams pretty low on confidence without really clear game plans the way I'm watching it.

And just horrible to watch. Just absolutely horrible. And then you get towards the end and it comes up like seven minutes and they're doing all the little tricks. And Richarlison was doing his little tricks. And then Romero was doing his little tricks. And they've had a very good run. They've had some pretty tough games. AZ, Eintracht have gone there. Bodo Glimt was a difficult one. But I just... It's just horrible. I just...

I don't know whether these players are good enough to even get back into Europe to be playing European competition again. I can't say with confidence at the moment that Manchester United would finish in the top eight next season.

And I know the way football fans are. I know straight after a defeat, everyone's really down. I know new signings, the emotions become positive and people become more optimistic. And at the start of the football season, people are more naturally optimistic. But even with the manager, he's new to this and he's all fresh-faced. He's not lived what we've lived. I don't know if he is still fresh-faced looking at him tonight. No, but he still speaks fantastically well. He still looks good. But he's only been in the job months.

41 games. His record is horrendous. But I don't feel in myself that get rid, because I just think, where does it end? Just bringing another manager in to... And then football managers are supposed to get results, and he's just not getting results. I think the pressure will build quite quickly at the start of next season. It's been relegation form since Christmas.

It's been horrendous. And this was the one, the guiding light, the possible saviour, all the prizes, and none of that happens now. It could have been a Super Cup final to look forward to, Champions League. Then again, what would this team have done in those competitions?

But it would have been nice to try. Yeah, it certainly would have been. It would have been fun going on the trips, wouldn't it? Like this one was fun until we arrived here tonight. Anyway, let's take a breath. I think we've all emptied our heads to a certain degree. And we'll talk a little bit more about some of the details from tonight in just a sec. In honor of Military Appreciation Month, Verizon thought of a lot of different ways we could show our appreciation. Like rolling out the red carpet. Giving you your own personal marching band. Or throwing a bumping shindig.

At Verizon, we're doing all that in the form of special military offers. That's why this month only, we're giving military and veteran families a $200 Verizon gift card and a phone on us with a select trade-in and a new line on select unlimited plans. Think of it as our way of flying a squadron of jets overhead while launching fireworks. Now that's what we call a celebration because we're proud to serve you. Visit your local Verizon store to learn more.

The

This podcast is brought to you by Aura. Imagine waking up to find your bank account drained, bills for loans you never took out, a warrant for your arrest, all because someone stole your identity. Hackers aren't waiting.

Why are you? That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Your personal data is a goldmine for hackers, and Aura helps lock it down. Aura monitors the dark web, blocks data brokers from selling your information, includes a VPN for private browsing, and a password manager to secure your accounts before criminals break in. For a limited time, Aura is offering our listeners a 14-day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked.

All for free at Aura.com slash safety. That's Aura.com slash safety to sign up and start protecting yourself and your loved ones. That's A-U-R-A dot com slash safety. Terms apply. Check the site for details. Kyle, let's go back to the start. So a lineup that didn't include Alejandro Garnaccio, that didn't include Mama Legate, that did include Mason Mount, that did include Ahmad, that included, again, Lenny Oro.

Were you surprised that that was what Ruben Amarin went with tonight? A little bit surprised that he didn't pair Ugarte with Casemiro to go up against that trio of Tottenham Hotspur players. But I had no real complaints with that starting line-up. Amarin said to Laurie and other journalists Tuesday he wanted to win in 90 minutes. That's a line-up that you want to win in 90 minutes. You take it in stages and you get your early goal and then hopefully when the game gets stretched then Spurs come on to you, Garnaccio can nick some stuff.

by running in behind. The problem with that is you've got to score first and they didn't. And then it becomes a war of attrition. I mentioned to Laurie who sat next to me that in the first half at least, it felt as if United had command of the referee's whistle, I should say. There were two or three times where Casemiro was getting into his groove in the way that Barcelona fans would absolutely hate. He's doing that stuff that wins you finals. Mount was also doing that stuff that wins you finals. Ahmad was...

really being a little pest. Then you go, okay, two or three bits of combination play. But unfortunately...

There's just a ricketyness in both penalty areas for Manchester United. I feel uneasy when a team is running at pace towards United's box. I feel uneasy when the ball is pinged out wide very quickly and United are in the final third because I'm going, is that person going to make the correct decision? And a football team of United's history and supposed financial strength, these shouldn't be uncertainties.

You shouldn't be this uncertain about how to play football in May. It should all now just be automatic. I know exactly what I'm doing all the time. I don't need to tell a teammate, he's your man, because you should know it because you've rehearsed it all the time. You're referring to the goal. I'm referring to a lot of things. And it's still so uneven. The cornbread ain't done in the middle. The bit in the cake, when you put your fork, it's not there. And it should be. Why isn't? You can get into a myriad of factors, but...

Dan? Yeah, it felt like the selection was about keeping the ball a bit better, being a bit more progressive with the passes, trying to use the ball more effectively through midfield. But when I said this to you, maybe halfway through the first half, it still doesn't feel like they know who's going to be stood where and how to progress the ball through the lines effectively, quickly, smoothly. Those partnerships, those relationships like Carl's talking about, this team just doesn't seem to have them, does it?

No, I mean, I think the most frequent pass, at least attempted, was Maguire to Dorgoo as well, which is kind of not really, I don't think, the most potent attacking threat. I mean, Dorgoo did do quite well, actually. Some crosses first half and second half caused Tottenham a little bit of trouble, but they didn't really come to anything. But yeah, there was a few times, wasn't there, where the ball was at the back of the team and not going direct. There was one actually passed

straight to Masraoui that then did open up the space and he'd come inside and Ahmad was out on the wing and that was the kind of stuff you need to see more of I think that's the kind of stuff that Ammarin does want his teams to do that's what the formation is supposed to do it's just that

either they're not good enough, they're not listening, he's not good enough at communicating what he wants, a hodgepodge of all of it probably. But it was... There was a period in the first part of the second half where it just felt excruciating, where they were passing it around the edge of the box rather than going for the jugular. Because you could see Tottenham were... They were willing. I know they defended well, but they defended deep. And they basically resorted to time waste. I mean, Christian Romero just...

decided to go down every touch with Harry Maguire, wind him up and then yeah after the final whistle Harry Maguire had some serious words to say to him so that's an intriguing subplot I suppose but it wasn't like, I don't think they were doing anything too crazy, okay they did do Mickey van der Veen, that clearance sort of off the line from Rasmus Hoyland's header if that goes in I do think the game changes because United are in the ascendancy Tottenham's nerves would have been jangling I'm sure of it, even Luke Shaw's header at the end, you know

a good save from Vicario. So they're moments that if they go for United, then it could be a totally different complexion. But it still remains the case, to Karl-Anandi's points, that these systemic issues are there. So this would have been a kind of winning the raffle ticket where you know the season's been absolutely awful, but this is a get-out-of-jail-free card at the end of it that could then maybe just give you that...

that glimpse into the transfer market you get new players and you get a bit of positive feel about it it just seems to evaporate now and you're looking at the players Bruno Fernandes on his own we know there's been speculation about his future Al-Hilal genuine I think that is in terms of an offer to him mega money

what's he thinking in that moment? What are all these players thinking in these moments? So I think it's going to be a real fascinating few weeks ahead. It's difficult really to know in some ways the direction to take the conversation because we've had so many emails already. We're recording this at, what time is it? 10 to 1 in the morning local time. And literally the email notifications have just been coming consistently. People questioning the

the line-up, why substitutions weren't made quicker. James saying the lack of substitutions from Amarim was really poor to make so few and to make them so late cannot have been the right decision. Not just in hindsight, everyone watching that match tonight was shocked at how long it took to get Garnaccio on.

Well, Harry Maguire said at the press conference yesterday, he obviously made a joke about it in terms of, you know, I've been practicing my dribbling, you know, to kind of the question about his performance in the semifinal. But he ended it by saying, I don't want to be upfront about

chasing a game and what happened he was up front chasing a game again that can't be a strategy from United's point of view and Arna was up front as well towards the end well the big man's coming up it felt 99 vibes and at the end you had Garnaccio and Casemiro going for the same ball it would have been a spectacular goal but that kind of a double overhead kick never seen that before that kind of summed up United's miscommunication didn't it throughout the game yeah I mean

When I say I don't know the direction to take the conversation, just because there are so many different angles to this, there's so many different sort of parts of the conversation, none of them are particularly pleasant. It feels like it's much more than just one podcast really, dissecting all of this. But on the substitutions, did you think he could have done something different earlier? Yeah.

I felt a more important point was that Bruno Fernandes, who's your best player, didn't have a good game. He's won so much for us this season and I thought the substitutions were more marginal. There were chances. Was it Ahmad who flashed a ball across after 15 minutes? If anyone would have got a touch on that, that was going in. Dan Acho's shot when he first came on. Yeah, and he brought a bit of energy, but how good are these players?

We back them because they're our own. We want them to do well. But now's the time when we should be making end-of-term assessments and looking at the league table. And it makes for absolutely awful reading. It just does. It's nearly as irritating as that leaf blower guy who's just started on the pitch. I don't know if you can hear that listening to the podcast. I'm quite grateful that he's getting rid of that glitter. We don't want to be looking at that, do we, any longer? No. I think one of the...

with the substitutions can change the game is the substitutions still have to operate in a 3-4-3. And Postakoglu's won by changing his principles. It's not high intensity football. Your full-backs are staying deep. The fundamental shape and the way that we have seen Tottenham Hotspur play changed, not just in this final, but in multiple knockout games of the Europa League. The fundamental way Amarin wants to play this game of football will not change. And that means...

While you can get a substitute on and they may have long... If you bring on Garnaccio at halftime, he has more game time and therefore, in theory, more time to have shots like the shot he had against Vicario. But he's still not a seamless fit in a formation that is not a seamless fit for the majority of that squad.

And then you get into the big, deep, uncomfortable questions. Did any of you notice that the Bonnie, Tyler, Ruben, Amrin chart died down in the second half?

I think all chance died down, didn't it? Because people are tense. It's difficult to sing in those conditions. And to your point on Ange, I think he felt, it seems to me, that he's going whatever. I mean, it'll be interesting if they do stick to their guns like Manchester United didn't do last season with Eric Ten Haag. So he's able to compromise his principles in this competition because he's just trying to win it.

And then he wins a trophy in his second season, as he said he would do, and he can go off into the sunset. Can't Amarin do that, though? Well, I think... How did Eric Ten Hag win in a flick-up? Yeah, no, totally. Or triple-two? Totally, but he thought he was going as well. So it's kind of like, I will... And I don't think Eric Ten Hag was particularly rigid on a formation as such, but I think Amarin clearly is, and he thinks that he's going to consistently...

be at this club or in his mind he wants to be. So if he changes that, then he's dead. So I think he felt like he had to. But I agree with you that it then makes a really awkward look for things when you're having to put Maguire as your striker and Xerxes as your 10th.

Why are United finishing with so many defenders on the pitch at the end? Well, when Maguire went up front, it was like a carousel of shuffles, wasn't it? Loads of people were going into different positions that they weren't in a moment ago to accommodate a centre-half going up front when United really should have enough attacking firepower with the money spent, with the time invested in developing these players to not have to rely on that. Ruben Amarin, on his unveiling, said he... When United approached him, he said, could we wait until the summer? And United...

the executives whoever was in charge said it's now or never sporting won the portuguese title over the weekend united have just done this so and i've always got this sort of nagging thought of the person who tells amarin it's now or never what was your decision making process before you got to that bit amarin deciding okay now is a good time to join i've seen that squad but now is a good time to join raises questions about amarin's decision making so i'm just sort of

This is a bad squad. Andy keeps going, how good are these players? The league table tells you how good these players are. You are what your record tells you what you are. The ball does not lie. Let's get back to some of your emails then. This one from Chris.

I don't know how loud that leaf blower is on this recording, but it's very loud in my ears and it's getting even more irritating, to be honest. But anyway, it's going to continue for a while because there's a lot of glitter to tidy up. But Amarino's tried the same thing against Spurs multiple times and failed. Spurs were allowed to play this game

as a Premier League tie, and that was to United's detriment. I had reservations about him coming in, and his lack of pragmatism really does not have me feeling any support towards him. It goes in line roughly with what the lads were saying a moment ago, although that is stronger than what they said. Sean, Ruben's starting line-up has to be seriously questioned. Why Rasmus again? Why Shaw? Why Mount when he's better off the bench? The timing of subs and the whole buy-in.

Binned off the Premier League to focus on the Europa League and produce a tactical disaster in the final game against the Spurs team, missing multiple key players. Gutted and tired of pretending otherwise with this manager, Kevin. Yeah, I mean, from the emails, Andy, from speaking to a couple of people who were in the United end tonight, it has tested people's faith. That's the word that Amarin used in the press conference as well, that he needed people to show in him and the path forward.

Tonight has tested that more than ever. It's going to. I can understand why he made the decisions that he did. So Ugarte didn't start, but when we watched Ugarte here a few weeks ago, he gave the ball away three times in the first 15 minutes. And he's been doing the same in the Premier League. Mason Mount did very well against Athletic. So at some point, you've got to reward people. And we know that Mason Mount has done well in the Champions League final. He's not someone who's just come in...

off the street off the street yeah so I could see why it was a 3-4-3 I could see why he made it with Hoyland you watching Hoyland working hard I thought Hoyland played well when when we were here a couple of weeks ago erm

But he's a goal scorer. He's got a score. So what happens now? You bring a goal scorer in, you bring a midfielder in, suddenly the mood picks up off the floor a little bit. A bit of confidence with the team, a few results together. But at the moment when we're here, I just don't even feel like talking like that. I feel so down about what I've just seen. And we had the prize right in front of us. I actually stood talking.

with the trophy like by the side of me for six minutes seeing all the names etched on it like Manchester United 2017 it's just it's just horrible it's a horrible feeling and uh

It makes it a bit worse because Tottenham didn't play well. Tottenham did have injuries. There was more despondency among the Tottenham fans than Manchester United fans before the game. You had the manager losing his rag with journalists. Losing his job no matter what tonight, supposedly, according to reports. Yeah. I don't know whether he will or not.

I spoke to a Tottenham fan before about, you know, what if he wins a trophy? And the person said, well, Juan de Ramos won us our last trophy and he's not remembered as a legend. And I thought, OK, you know, you're much closer to it than I am. And just envy because you're seeing that whole end and as the game goes on, they're singing or when the Spurs go marching in and you're just thinking, I wish this would be ours and all your mates are in the United end, you know,

The financial and emotional investment that they put in to get here, as you said at the start, it's really expensive. You've just got to go home now. It's flat. You associate winning finals with great cities and Bilbao fitted that description. It could have been a rotterdam. It could have been a talking point. Or maybe we were naive even thinking along those lines. I do wonder that now. Maybe we were putting too much hope into a team. But they're worse than us.

Their record in the league is worse than Manchester United. They've had salvation in the Europa League for the majority of the season like United had. So that makes it even worse. I agree. When you lose to Barca, they were miles better than Man United in 2009 and 2011. There's still a sense of pride in the team that day. Despite losing in the final, there was a genuine sense of pride at what you were watching being a very special Manchester United side. And that's also how it...

It cuts deep because you're watching a team that are falling so far below what's expected of them. What is there to fall back on? It just feels like we're going into the wilderness now, that the good times have ended. And I know it can turn pretty quickly in football, but there's no European football next year. That 14-15 season dragged so much.

That's because we were watching Louis van Gaal's football as well, though, to be fair. But you know what? In part of that season, the football was good. You just had to wait ages for each match. In the spring of 2015, the football was good under van Gaal. That was like his...

You could go for a piss halfway through the second half, you'd miss nothing and be gone five minutes. There's all that mad statistics. If you sit at the scoreboard end, you've not seen a goal for eight months and stuff like that. I think it was something like an own goal was scored on the opening day. Memphis Depay scored in September. And other than that, no one scored at that end until February in a 3-0 win against Stoke. And I'm gutted...

Whether we like it or not, this is our job as well. The trips that you go to, the interviews you would have had. I think of the interviews with the Athletic or the Lyon players in recent months. None of that now happens. Far fewer games to go to. Could any good come from this? Well, Manchester United's financial situation could become so precarious that there is sea change that ultimately brings in something positive. But I'm not sure how that happens right now.

Selecciona entre una gran variedad de cupones digitales y utilízalos hasta cinco veces en una transacción. Mira nuestro app para detalles.

Kroger, fresh for everyone. In honor of Military Appreciation Month, Verizon thought of a lot of different ways we could show our appreciation, like rolling out the red carpet, giving you your own personal marching band, or throwing a bumping shindig.

At Verizon, we're doing all that in the form of special military offers. That's why this month only, we're giving military and veteran families a $200 Verizon gift card and a phone on us with a select trade-in and a new line on select unlimited plans. Think of it as our way of flying a squadron of jets overhead while launching fireworks. Now that's what we call a celebration because we're proud to serve you. Visit your local Verizon store to learn more.

$200 Verizon gift card requires smartphone purchase $799.99 or more with new line on eligible plan. Gift card sent within eight weeks after receipt of claim. Phone offer requires $799.99 purchase with new smartphone line on unlimited ultimate or postpaid unlimited plus. Minimum plan $80 a month with auto pay plus taxes and fees for 36 months. Less $800 trade-in or promo credit applied over 36 months. 0% APR. Trade-in must be from Apple, Google, or Samsung. Trade-in and additional terms apply.

The Jeep brand has always stood for American freedom. And now we're standing with you with Employee Pricing Plus. Hurry into your Jeep brand dealer for details today and join the family. Jeep, there's only one. Offer valid on select 2024 and 2025 Jeep brand vehicles for non-FCA employees and retirees. $200 admin fee applies. Not all buyers will qualify. Restrictions apply. Does not apply to leases. Ends June 2nd, 2025. Jeep is a registered trademark of FCA US LLC.

Laurie, Andy introduced the topic just a moment ago, but what happens next from here? Ruben Amerin said in his press conference he didn't want to talk about the future, but we need to, don't we? Yeah, I mean, as Andy's saying, I can only think as far as getting home at this point. But let's try and flick it a bit further than that. Obviously, we've reported about Mateus Kunja,

advanced negotiations with him on his contracts and the essence of that deal feeling like it's been done really and being triggered by

the release closed once the season's over that was my understanding. Does that still happen even though there's no Champions League football? I thought it was independent of that and that's what Amarone I think was alluding to when he said we've got two plans you know and so it felt like Cunha and De Lappe were two Liam De Lappe's the other one sorry so obviously reported on him this week having face-to-face talks with Man United but Chelsea very much in the mix for him and other clubs as well so

does he choose United? It's kind of up to him a little bit. But yeah, I think it does now throw forward a little bit of uncertainty as to exactly the kind of players United can get. We're kind of, I think we kind of came into this thinking that United would ultimately get the job done and maybe that's how they've been approaching things with their targets. So it's worth a fresh round of checks just to make sure that everything we thought was going to happen will actually now happen. Kyle, Andy said before that, you know, the players are,

at least in front of a television camera, fully behind Ruben Amorim. Sounded like Diogo Dalo and Luke Shaw were very, very firm in their assertion that he is the right man to take Manchester United forward from this point. But he's got one hell of a job, hasn't he? So hard. And I'm sorry, I keep staring at the glitter being leafed away. And I can't shake the feeling that this is an end of a frontier. United aren't going to be playing Europa League football for some time.

they will not be playing Champions League football for some time. Second time in 35 years there's no European football. Amman's job remit has shifted from... So the question, you get to a game between United and Liverpool and inevitably in the press conference room someone asks...

when are United going to deliver title number 21? How long do you think it's going to take? How long do you think it's going to take? And I think now we often get this word realistic. What's a realistic transfer window? What's a realistic aim? What's the end of meeting standard quality? The realistic aim for Ameren is you've got to get this team to be a top half team. We're not talking about top five. I don't think we should be talking about top five next season. I don't think we should be talking about Champions League qualification next season. I think we should be aiming for competence,

Because United have been incompetent in so many important facets of football, not just on the pitch, but off the pitch as well.

So something I said to Shaw, he said, things have got to change. What has got to change? And I'm paraphrasing him here. It was something like, I don't want to go into it now. But I had the same chat with players after the cup final last year and things have changed and got even worse. Because six to, what were we, 16, 17? So it sounds like, as we stand here now inside this stadium in Spain,

that Ruben Amarin will continue as a Manchester United manager. He said in his press conference tonight that as long as the fans and the board are still behind him, he will not resign, he'll not walk away, he'll not quit. Laurie mentioned before, if people do want him to leave, he'll walk away tomorrow with no conversation. No conversation about compensation, easy for me to say.

Is that the right thing? This time last year, we're having exactly the same conversation about Eric Ten Haag. I feel his position... After a cup final win. Yeah, I know. But I just feel his position is different to Ten Haag's. I just do. He's only just got to the job. I think it would be really harsh, even though it's dreadful, to get rid of him when he's inherited a team assembled by other managers, a Frankenstein's monster of a squad...

He seems very clear in knowing what he wants. And when I speak to players, they are absolute in him continuing. I wasn't getting that a year ago. I really wasn't. I said on this podcast a few hours after the cup final that I'd spoken to players and none of them were like, he has to go, he has to stay.

and then when I wrote that like six months later people were like why didn't you say that I said I said it on the podcast straight after the cup final the circumstances feel different now I

I saw someone message before and say, if Amarim went to another club, he'd be hugely successful. And I can see the sentiment there. Sporting Lisbon. Yeah, yeah. He had a good life in Portugal and he looked broken in that press conference. Yeah, I think I've seen him angrier than he was tonight, but he certainly seemed irritated. There was a back and forth about team selection. There was a back and forth about the message for the fans. There was a back and forth about the future, about his record. He's in quite a combative mood tonight.

Yeah, it's just such a huge question because fans are fed up of the churn. They're fed up of get this manager, get rid of him, change this, change that. I mean, the last two or three years, we're not just talking about signing new players and changing coaches and managers. Literally everything's changed. The ownership structure's changed, the leadership group, the executive group, I should say. Everything's changed and yet we're in this position.

yeah, well, obviously change isn't necessarily always a good thing, right? It needs to be competent. It needs to be...

people working together. I think the big question, right, this summer is that they're going to have to back him. If he stays, they're going to have to back him and with players that are more suited to this style. Now, okay, you might say Mateus Cunha could work in different positions, I suppose, and if a manager comes in with a 4-2-3-1, maybe he swaps roles, but he does play this system with Wolves, so you can see how it correlates. And so, yeah,

wing backs is going to be another thing I would say you know trying to get that to a level where it really then becomes an aggressive system and the auxiliary centre backs as well I thought Lenny Yoro was good again tonight certainly in the second half came into it was bringing the ball forward was trying stuff and he looked really cut up at the full-time whistle as well youngest player since Brian Kidd to start a European final for Manchester United would have been lovely if he'd scored as well like Brian Kidd did that night so

So another sort of thing that I think is notable is the likes of Garnaccio and Mainu. So, I mean, I think this is fair to reflect because it is a public account, but Garnaccio's brother has said, posted a picture of Garnaccio going past the trophy, working as no one else, helping every round, coming from two goals, last two finals, just to be on the pitch 90 minutes and get thrown under the bus, which I think is a reference to Amarin mentioning that he'd missed a chance against Athletic Club in the last round. So that's why that influenced his decision on Mason Mount.

So that kind of stuff does feel like if they make that call based on what Amarim wants, then that does change the club going forward, changes the team. So do you think it affects Garnaccio's attitude to his future not being picked to start this game? I think it has to, doesn't it? It feels that way. It feels, you know, some players will react really well to this kind of

you know, situation. He came on and he was trying stuff. Maybe that can be a consistent theme. And he has picked him a lot, Amarin. He has felt that he's improved, certainly. Maybe it's a, you know, this moment is a snapshot of time and okay, in the fullness of, you know, the weeks to come, then it changes the emotions. But yeah, I do feel like it's such a big match that he'll be hurt about that, surely. Casemiro came back from not starting the cup final, didn't he, last year, to be fair. So things can change, I suppose. But is it a different...

stage of his career I mean I feel empty even trying to do this part of the conversation but is there any part of you Carl that thinks United not being in European competition next season could be a good thing if you're trying to play devil's advocate if you're trying to have a full conversation about this

Amarant tried before this game to prepare the ground that if they didn't win, the fact that there wouldn't be European games in the week, it felt a bit hollow at the time, if I'm honest, when I was listening to it. And me even asking this feels a little bit hollow. But does it help having weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks without midweek games and having the time on the training pitch to sort things out, considering how uncomfortable they still seem to look in this system? It does, but you have to have good players.

Right, you have to have good players. You have to have players capable of doing things. And Laurie's spoken very well about Kunja and the lap and the situation with the wing-backs. When you're going to play wing-backs, it's also really important that you have your wide centre-backs can carry the ball. Euro solves that problem. I think Los Angeles Martinets maybe solves that problem. So, one game a week.

maybe you reduce the physical workloads on some of these players maybe Patrick Dorgo gets told you only play one game this week you can run you can take it to you can play in fifth gear and come off in the 70th minute because you've got an extra bit of time but right now this is all theoretical right this is all theoretical if buts maybes perhaps possibilities question marks over starting levels as I take people out

The fact right now is that this Manchester United squad is going to go down in history as one of the worst squads ever. And right now, Ameren is statistically one of the worst managers in the Manchester United dugout. He said he had nothing to show to fans to say, believe in me and do this. It requires faith. I cannot be on this podcast and honestly tell a Man United fan, why should I have faith in Ameren? I can't give you...

an answer. I can't say you should follow this man. If you want to follow him, follow him. If you don't want to follow him, don't follow him. Because right now, I'm just standing there going, you need way more help than what you're currently getting. And I don't know, and I don't necessarily trust your bosses to get you that help. Manchester United very clearly need the defensive midfielder last summer. Very clearly need someone to take it from Casemiro. They delivered the football player who Amar in the side of...

didn't quite have the correct attributes to start a European League final. Somebody's worked with before as well. That felt like the cutting thing to me. He's the one who should know the system and should know the way to play. And you have this cycle where every player gets cheered out and every new signing gets cheered in as though it's going to be an improvement. And then you see players like Scott McTominay doing really well for Napoli. And the people at the club were like, we should never, ever have sold him. So many people said to me on the inside,

What on earth are we doing? It was a financial decision, wasn't it? Okay, it was a financial decision. But I mean, really? It's a financial decision because you bulls up other investments elsewhere. You have to sell Scott McTominay because unfortunately you're on the hook to Ajax for a player. Yeah.

And history could repeat itself this season with other young players in that squad who are homegrown talents, who would be 100% on the balance sheet of profit if they were sold. So, Cobby, Garnaccio, I wouldn't be stunned if either of them left Manchester United. You could see them pushing for a contract which plays them on parity with top, top players. But are they top players? They play for a team who are 16th in the league.

What are the players who play for the teams around Manchester United on? Not a fraction of what some of these lads are asking. Are they that good? I don't know the answer. I want to believe that they're good. I've seen moments when they're good, but... It's not just those two, though, is it? It's not just about those two. I thought Lenny Oro, I think he's good. I really do. Lenny Oro's good. Absolutely, he's good. I thought he did all right tonight. But also, you're asking young players who have played a lot of football, Garnaccio especially, to be consistently...

United's leading players and that is difficult that's difficult in a team that's well established with very experienced players who can guide them through games who can pick up the mantle when they're struggling and they just don't have that network around them in this squad there's good players there Masraoui is a good experienced player Harry Maguire is a good experienced player I'm not saying that these are absolute best walking to Real Madrid Barcelona teams no but they're not 16th place footballers either are they so what's going wrong?

It's every week. We'll lose it. Do you expect to beat Villa? I have no idea what Sunday's going to be like. It'll be awful. It'll be the easiest ticket that you've ever seen. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah, they have to play again, yeah. You know, it will. And we have been there before. We were there in 88-89, and the crowd's dropped down to 26,000. There was a massive, tangible drop-off. The bizarre thing is that...

The demand for tickets is really high. I mean, are people ill? There's like queues for season tickets.

Is it like a desperate... Is it some sort of syndrome where, you know, punish me more? I look at other clubs like this and there are... That is called something, Andy. Yeah. Lou Van Gaal once mentioned it. Yeah. Yeah. There's been a couple of clubs in Germany, huge clubs like Hamburg and Schalke, you know, 50,000, 60,000 average crowds have gone down to the second division and the crowds still stay the same. It's really worrying. It's really...

Financially though, tonight is a disaster, isn't it? Because we've talked a lot about how precarious the financial situation is. So how big an impact does that result have on trying to get United back to the sort of levels...

even close to what they should be yeah well it's like 85 million for just being in the Champions League basically you could get bombed out in the group stage and that's basically what happens obviously it's more if you actually progress the Europa League is sort of like 40 odd million if you win it

Was this just prize money? So you've got gate receipts and everything on top of that? No, no, that's kind of the whole thing. I mean, that is why, to Carl's point, Carl was crouching head in hands when he realised that United were playing Villa. I don't know what he's going to do when I tell him that they're also going on a

post-season tour to Kuala Lumpur and Hong Kong where they're playing two friendly. It's just watered out of the stadium. That is done for money. That's done for commercial reasons. You're not going to have a ball on that trip, by the way. And I said for months ago, every Premier League placing is worth millions. Every time Manchester United have a game, the megastore is full. The takings are full. There's revenues from matchday programmes, from executives, from ticket sales. It is substantial. It's a huge business.

and all the auxiliary businesses that feed off that, the hotels, and that has all gone. It's gone for next season. There will be none of it. There might be runs in the FA Cup, but they've even binned replays away for that now, haven't they? You're going from... I remember writing a piece for the Athletic a couple of years ago. United played 62 games, more or less, and the angle was 10-0 once is every season because it shows we're being successful. I'm like, how many games that season? 39.

You could actually have 40 games next season. You could have 40 games next season. So we might get some more mad commercial ones where they go...

for money but how big a ticket is Manchester United I'll switch into serious mode again you've got a new business manager there who's got to go to market and say would you like to sponsor my football team the day to do his impression again already by the way the sponsorships decreased from the fact that they're not in the Champions League there's automatic clauses in place with Adidas for example 10 mil off that's

massive amounts of money huge amounts of money and that's why I say Bill Bauer bust this is bust now the club ain't going under but sound like Jim Ratcliffe I do sound like Jim Ratcliffe just walked past me twice didn't speak to him I didn't blank him just like you know it was a busy room and I was preparing to speak to Luke Shaw that interview with Luke Shaw I'm not going to say harrowing but

But, because I'm going to arm myself back here because it is only football and in the real world and real news, you do see harrowing interviews. But it is honestly one of the most despondent interviews I've ever done with a football player.

It's just on the floor. The whole... Was he more despondent than you at the start of this podcast? Was it his energy that had worn off on you when you... You literally looked like you'd just been dug up when you walked into the press box before. I felt bad and you looked worse than I felt. I feel terrible, mate. I feel... I've got to do a summer issue of United We Stand. Can't say it to my printer. Can't pay you this month because the team I support are absolutely sh** and keep losing every week.

He's not going to turn around and say, oh, that's fine, I'll tell my staff. You know, I'm not going to invoice for the paper. The knock-on effect of this, it's just awful. You know, we're getting people messaging in now, I can't be listening to the podcast, lads. Well, don't worry, we didn't want to record it either. I don't want to record it. It's 20 to 2 in the morning or whatever it is. I don't want to be stood here listening to a bleeding windblower.

Anything to add? My only thing is Laurie laughs at all my jokes. That's the only thing that is making me smile on this planet at the moment. I saw an email, I think, which sums it up and we're going to go out on this. This is from Matthew. I'm dejected, angry, miserable and a whole host of other negative emotions. Where do we go from here?

I have no idea. But he's not got to get back to his bleeding hotel. Tell him Bill Bowat's waited till 2 in the morning, has he? At least you've got a hotel. Yeah, I know. And I'm lucky for that. Very lucky. Some people are going back to a park bench, aren't they? Literally. You have to go through this. If you don't know what you're doing, you have to go through this. And you have to go through this together. And you have to be committed. Everyone has to row in the same direction together. You cannot... It's going to be hard. It's going to take a long time. Committed to what?

What are we committed to? Tell me a dream. I'm all ears. Someone has to give a dream. Someone has to give a dream. Someone has to give objectives. Has to give good ones. You said top half finish before. Look, you can laugh. If you say Man United are going to finish 10th and we're going to do it with this person, this person, this person. We're going to do it this way. And Amundsen to this. Fine. Do it. Pick your plan. Execute it. We all go together. Because I'm so sick of...

How much time, money, emotional investment these fans come. They've traveled all around the world to watch that game and you didn't turn up.

There are so many times I've watched Man United this season and I've gone, this is not worth my time. I get paid to do this and I don't think it's worth my time. I think about the sentences I have wasted to try and explain, find new ways for the word dysfunction or chaos or uneven to describe this football team. What you are is a football team that's going to finish 16th, 17th. You're out of Europe. I can't believe we've lost four times to the shittiest Tottenham team ever.

I don't know. Someone just like laughing at us going, you've had a right result for most of your lives. I just want to go home. I just want to go home as well. I just want to go home. Can we end? How long have we got left? No, let's finish it there. It's been long enough. I usually say I hope you enjoyed that, but even that feels empty. Thank you for listening. Thank you, Laurie, Carl and Andy for being here with us. Thank you for those glorious leaf blowers for interrupting the entire record. And lo and behold, they have literally just stopped as we finished. Thank you.

That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? Safe travels back if you're listening to this before you've got home. Take care and we'll speak to you again after Aston Villa. Fantastic.

I'm not saying I'm obsessed with basketball, but my neighbors definitely know when there's a new doc on Prime Video, because I yell at the TV like I'm coaching the team! And with Amazon Prime, I can always count on fast, free delivery when ordering a mini hoop, ankle socks, and three different headbands, because style matters, even when you're missing layups.

We'll be right back.

If your job at a healthcare facility includes disinfecting against viruses, you know prevention is the best medicine. And maintaining healthy spaces starts with a healthy cleaning routine. Grainger's world-class supply chain helps ensure you have the quality products you need when you need them. From disinfectants and cleaning supplies to personal protective equipment so you can help deliver a clean bill of health. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, clickgrainger.com, or just stop by.

Granger, for the ones who get it done. In honor of Military Appreciation Month, Verizon thought of a lot of different ways we could show our appreciation, like rolling out the red carpet, giving you your own personal marching band, or throwing a bumping shindig.

At Verizon, we're doing all that in the form of special military offers. That's why this month only, we're giving military and veteran families a $200 Verizon gift card and a phone on us with a select trade-in and a new line on select unlimited plans. Think of it as our way of flying a squadron of jets overhead while launching fireworks. Now that's what we call a celebration because we're proud to serve you. Visit your local Verizon store to learn more.

$200 Verizon gift card requires smartphone purchase $799.99 or more with new line on eligible plan. Gift card sent within eight weeks after receipt of claim. Phone offer requires $799.99 purchase with new smartphone line on unlimited ultimate or postpaid unlimited plus. Minimum plan $80 a month with auto pay plus taxes and fees for 36 months. Less $800 trade-in or promo credit applied over 36 months. 0% APR. Trade-in must be from Apple, Google, or Samsung. Trade-in and additional terms apply.