United undone by Arsenal set-pieces
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Before we start this podcast, I'd like to take this moment to pay tribute to Cath Phipps, who Manchester United announced earlier on today had passed away at the age of 85. On social media, United described her as Miss Manchester United. She was quite simply a club institution. She worked at United for over 50 years. Most recently, and the way that we'll remember her,

is the receptionist at the club's Carrington Training Ground. She was the first face that you would see when you walked into the main building at the training ground and you were always greeted with a huge smile, a very warm Mancunian welcome. Those who knew her best were given a hug, a kiss, a

and eye of love as they walked through the door. She just set a lovely tone for anyone who arrived at the club and it didn't matter whether you were Sir Alex Ferguson or someone delivering a parcel, she would always give you that very warmest of welcomes. She played a very important part at the club internally. You'd often see her processing fan mail for the players receiving parcels, sorting things out. She'd get autographs from the players to respond to that fan mail message

as well. She was warmly loved by everyone at Manchester United and she will be sorely missed. I will certainly miss seeing that smiling face behind the desk. So on behalf of everyone connected with Talk of the Devils, our thoughts, our warm wishes and love go out to all Cass family and of course the people who knew her best. Rest in peace.

This is Talk of the Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. Here we are the morning after the night before, which brought Ruben Amarim's first defeat in charge of Manchester United at Arsenal. 2-0 will reflect on all the details on that game at the Emirates Stadium. We'll also look ahead to Nottingham Forest and talk about where Manchester United are as we continue this extremely busy period of festive football.

I think it's festive now. I think we can say that. I'm sat next to a Christmas tree. And I've got two gentlemen looking back at me from London hotels, Andy Mitter and Laurie Whitwell. Both of them were at the game last night. Both of them look a little bit bleary-eyed. LAUGHTER

Not because of celebrating, Laurie. Bit of a sobering evening that, wasn't it, in some ways? A sobering evening indeed. But I need to give you props as well, mate. You were up in Newcastle finishing at, what, 2am? And you're now here with us early in the morning to discuss Manchester United. You were doing your other job. You were having a look at how Liverpool and Newcastle are getting on, eh? So thank you for being here with us.

Yeah, I've crammed in as much information as I can and listened to the majority of the game back while I was driving back last night. But you two might need to help me a little bit on some of the details. Here we go. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, from what I've seen, Andy, and from what we've sort of talked about before we've started, I don't think we're too disappointed. It was almost expected that, wasn't it? United have not won at Arsenal since the FA Cup under Oli Ball in January 2019. So that's...

six games, five defeats, one draw. That's now six defeats and one draw. So you never completely give up hope because you think there's like a 10% chance of winning. But I am sick of going to Arsenal and seeing Manchester United lose season after season after season. At half-time, given that context, I was pretty encouraged. It was 0-0. Manchester United not played too badly. You could see the structure. You could see the system they were trying to use. Arsenal were being forced out wide. Man...

Manu Garte was having success in the middle, breaking up Arsenal's play. Second half was different. The set pieces, which I'm sure we'll discuss. The corners, you can't say that teams don't know about Arsenal's corners. They've scored 22 since the start of last season in the Premier League alone. So a defeat on a pretty miserable night. I'm not massively despondent about it, but

I'm not happy when Manchester United lose games either. No, like I said to Andy there, Laurie, we didn't expect it to be a brilliant night. I suppose there's always that part of you that's hoping to be surprised when you say that. But in that opening hour or so...

Obviously, they didn't concede from open play. We will talk about the set pieces in a moment because they were such a crucial part of last night. But in that hour or so, with a pretty makeshift side again, lots of changes once more, was there encouragement?

I certainly think there was encouragement in the sense of Ruben Amarin feeling confident, or at least feeling that he had to maybe make changes and try and fit different players into this system and see what worked. And the fact that actually for all the...

Kind of idea that these were players, you know, perhaps just coming out of the cold, you know, in terms of Harry Maguire first start for two months, Tyrone Malassia first Premier League start, you know, in like 19 months. And I know he played against Bodo, but obviously he came off at half time then. It was a bit of a chasing experience. So for him to then be up against Bukayo Saka, I think everyone was thinking, each of this could be a long night. And yeah, I think Saka did have some success against him, but it wasn't absolutely a one-way street.

And so I think that actually there was some signs there that, okay, with a bit more time on the training pitches, with a bit more understanding of what Amarin wants, you could see people do okay in the system. That being said, it wasn't a very high bar, was it? I mean, we sort of reflect on...

this fixture last season where United had loads of possession passing it around the back and it kind of felt similar in a way. I think the possession was actually further up the pitch this time and Arsenal certainly speaking to people at half-time that have watched Arsenal every single week they were saying they look really flat and I don't know what's going wrong for them so they were kind of quite disappointed with how Arsenal were playing so I think that maybe should be

some credit for United in terms of taking out the sting from their game. But after the break, I think Odegaard started to get on the ball a bit more and push United back. And obviously the corners changed the game in the way that then Arsenal had a foothold. But yeah, I do think that

Yeah, it's tricky when then Amarin has to make five changes throughout the game, you know, and that then prompted three positional changes as well. So you had, you know, Masraoui as the kind of left-sided centre-half. We were discussing it, weren't we, before the game, Ian, about like, you know, who's going to play exactly where. In the end, it was Maguire as the central defender to Lick's on the right side of that centre-back line. So you had players...

not only sort of coming out fresh from not playing, but also in different slightly tweaked positions. I think that always just takes a little bit of getting used to. Yeah, definitely. And I think it felt like the right choice to switch Masraoui to that side, considering Arsenal are so strong down there, right, with Bakayo Saka. Andy, when you looked at the team again, were you surprised about how many changes Ammarin made? Yeah, but he's showing, I think it's partly, he's giving everybody a chance, right?

It's partly because of the intensity of games, which Ruben Amorim will never have had in his career, especially leading into the Christmas period. If you look at who Manchester United play between now and a month's time, not only are there a lot of games, there's some very difficult games as well. There's games against...

Arsenal in the FA Cup is just like another one on to that Liverpool away in the league at the start of the new year there's a team called Manchester City who Manchester United will play in a couple of weeks Forrester a decent side Tottenham away in the Cup so your two away Cup draws are at Arsenal and Tottenham away so long gone are the days where we were laughing oh another game at Old Trafford it's the 14th one on the bounce

So he's going to need all of his players and he is giving them all a chance. Maybe if you're an over-30s Manchester United player, you might not be as in agreement with that statement. But, you know, I'm looking at and making my notes in the game last night and I'm like, this is his first game since, this is his first game. So Malasia, Lenny Oro came on, Harry Maguire had not started a match for a long time.

So he is giving them a chance, but coupled with a new system, they've got barely any time to train for the systems. They've got literally one day. So if you look at Man United now, the team flew back from Arsenal last night. Today is a rest and recovery day. Tomorrow, Friday, is you're preparing for Nottingham Forest. It's one day. It's far from ideal. To prepare in a day for a team as good as Arsenal is difficult because

But after the match, Laurie and I both spoke to the manager and he said he was happy with his structure. And I was at halftime. I could see that it was working. Saka's very dangerous. He's up against Malassi and you're like, whoa, this is difficult. And he was doing all right. I think he probably came off because he'd been booked just before the break.

And then the second half, Arsenal just... They just had more quality. And United are particularly poor in the final third. And Amarim said that. He said, in defence and in the middle, United were all right. And Arnaud's been very good this season. He'll be disappointed at them...

two goals came in from corners. Not that he specifically did anything wrong, but the delivery of them corners was so accurate. It's not just the delivery, it's the Arsenal players moving around and getting in the right positions for them. It's well-practiced. Manchester United do not have time to be well-practiced because it's a new coach with new ideas. There's a couple of things that I want to pick out from what you just said, Andy. First,

I don't want to keep delaying this corner sort of discussion because it is crucial, but just a last point before we get into that, Laurie. The defensive shape and the defensive side of Manchester United's formation under Amrim so far, it feels like that's okay actually, doesn't it? It feels like those pieces, despite the fact that there's been lots of changes, enforced changes, players...

being lost to injury like Luke Shaw now, which we'll talk about later as well. But it is these attacking pieces that seem to be taking a little bit longer to quite work out. But that's maybe understandable, isn't it?

It's the harder part of playing football, isn't it? Putting the ball in the back and passing to your teammate at just the right moment so that you break the offside trap or having that understanding which you just need to know instinctively where a player is going to be so that you can pass it to them and create danger. Obviously, Arsenal have got that with their...

sort of from, you know, Foyer, Havertz, Saka, Odegaard, you know, even Martinelli, you know, they've been playing together for quite a long time. And okay, you could say that United players have been at the club for a decent chunk of time as well. But obviously having changes made, it was three different, three, wasn't it, from the Everton game. And so I think against a side like Arsenal that are so well drilled defensively, there was obviously moments where

United were making the wrong decisions. I think Garnaccio ran down a blind alley a couple of times. You could see Amorin also actually getting really frustrated that there wasn't more bravery. So often United would check back when they had sort of a decent attacking moment and he'd kind of get frustrated. There was a moment late on in the game actually where

when he threw his water bottle down onto the floor because I think it was a nice pass from Onana out to Bruno Fernandes in midfield he brings the ball forward and then you've got four players ahead of him that are all running forwards and he's maybe looking to do a through ball but then Rashford drops deep and gets it quite close to him and

Amaran didn't really like that and then Rashford tries to play a wide pass out to Amar then it skips off the turf and goes out for a throw in and that was what provoked him sort of being so frustrated and I asked him about that afterwards and he said you could tell that yeah he didn't want to hammer his players he's very honest with us isn't he in public and he's been quite truthful but here he was diplomatic and he said

that's the harder part of the game to instill those moves, those kind of, you know, understandings between players as to exactly how to attack in different ways. So that's something that, you know, as Andy's touched on there, you know, United have got so many games coming up. I mean, every team has, but when you've got a new system, new manager trying to get ideas across, it's just difficult, right? You know, I think 15 games in 57 days he's got now. So,

So, you know, how many training sessions are you actually going to be able to... I know he's saying he's going to walk through his players in these moments, but, you know, jogging or whatever, but to kind of do it at full pelt, he's not going to have much time. Well, he suggested that the best training sessions are going to be the matches, hence why there are so many changes to the starting lineups, hence why there are so many changes in game. And that's not just personnel, that's the individual's positions as well.

And I think we'll continue to see that, like you said. Certainly if players are going to be injured during this period as well, it'll definitely have to be suspended. It's definitely going to have to be something that he's still working through. And maybe when we go to Arsenal next in the FA Cup in January, perhaps the team will look in better shape to be able to try and express themselves in an attacking sense a little bit more clearly.

but it is very early days isn't it right let's talk about the set pieces because um there's lots of different aspects even to talk about on this fundamentally how disappointing andy is it to concede two goals from set pieces against the team where you expected them to be a danger from set pieces what first attracted you to the millionaire you might say yeah massively disappointing but it isn't just about the set pieces so

I remember seeing Garnaccio give a pretty sloppy pass away. He lost the ball. Arsenal attacked from that moment. That led to the corner. So before we get to the set pieces, how are we conceding the set pieces? Arsenal had 13 corners. Manchester United didn't have one. Marcus Rashford was pretty sloppy giving away one of those corners. I think that also...

led to another goal as well. So if you're playing a team as technically good as Arsenal, if you make mistakes, you're going to be punished. If there's any background here, I think they're rebuilding the hotel above my head. I'm on the 11th floor and I think they get a little warning when they're checked in that, you know,

As soon as you start doing a podcast, it's going to start making it as difficult as possible for you to do this podcast. Well, if you will check into the Dorchester, Andy. They're obviously doing renovations there. I was going the other way. These youth hostels are just not what they were, are they? Go on then, lads. Get your line right. So the corners, right. I mean, they're brilliant corners. They're absolutely brilliant. They delivered, what, Saka Odegaard?

putting him in Saka and Rice and Rice sorry I did make a note of Rice Rice takes a brilliant corner I remember seeing him early on when he started taking the set pieces for Arsenal last season thinking why on earth is a man that big

taking set pieces that's sort of Phil Jones vibes but turns out it's quite good that's right who senior senior people on the football side at Manchester United said get Declan Rice and he's going to cost a lot of money get him and almost build your team about him Solskjaer wanted him Eric Ten Hag wanted him Solskjaer wanted him there was some pushback internally though as well amongst the scouts they were debating whether he was good enough for United I think he definitely would be just purely for his corners Andy

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Just in terms of the preparation for the game, Laurie, as well, I mean, don't concede as many corners. That is a good tactic to try and stop teams who are adept at set pieces. But when you're away at Arsenal under pressure,

and you've made lots of changes, there are going to be corners that you concede and that is going to be part of the game. But we had a couple of emails about this as well. So, Lee, my frustration with zonal marking bowled over tonight. I'm clearly happy to be wrong, but surely zonal marking's biggest fault is if five or six opposition players are running into one area, we'll never have enough players to mark them in that specific area. Patrick, I actually thought United defended the corners well, but when you give a team like Arsenal that many, it's rare you don't pay.

there's different ways to do it for the Saliba goal in particular watching that one back there's a hell of a lot of people in and around the six yard box

And does that help defend the corner? Well, I mean, I need to speak to an expert here. I don't have to figure out whether zonal marking or man marking is a better course of action. I mean, people who are employed to do this should be able to make the right decision. Yeah, because obviously what they do, and I don't know why more teams don't do it, because it seems like quite a good idea now, doesn't it? They just sort of wait at the back post altogether and then they run to the near post. But then obviously...

if you're expecting that then for this Aliba goal they just actually peeled off they didn't run as much so they kind of stayed at the far post and

and you've got that understanding there between Saka, Rice and the players, what corner is coming in, and they can deliver it. The accuracy, the precision, repeatedly was incredible from both of them. In swinging corner, get it into that six-yard box, put Onan under pressure, get players around him, and something might happen. I thought it was an own goal for Timber, and I thought it was maybe an own goal for Saliba, but in the end, they're both actually very good

okay Saliba's actually ducking out the way of the ball but he just deflected off him almost didn't he yeah have you ever seen a player score a goal whilst actually trying to get out the way of it but yeah but Timbers had it I mean and again that was a bit of the dark arts wasn't it because he's pushed Hoyle and Debb just before he's gone to head the ball which has put him off balance it

It's not enough for a foul, is it? But he's got that space there. Hoyland can't get the trajectory of the ball and he's glanced in. It's really nicely done. But how do you defend that? If you've got a load of players, man-marking players at the far post and running with them, they're going to run all over the place. They're going to try and cause chaos that way. I think it is incredible that you've got Gabriel out injured, who's clearly their biggest threat at set-piece, and they go and still score two goals. The biggest set-piece threat. Some of it though, Laurie, is it not just about going...

Go on and head it in the ball. Go and head it. Well, that's why Harry Maguire was selected, surely. Shouldn't Casemiro have been selected for the same reason? I mean, it feels like he's almost the best header of the ball for Manchester United defending corners. I don't know. I kind of feel like he was obviously looking at more open play selections. Yeah, but we knew set pieces were going to be crucial. I mean, Arsenal scored more goals from set pieces than any team in Europe this season by a distance. Their set piece coach, Nicholas Jova, he was getting a song sung about him.

by the Arsenal fans last night. That's how much... So Arsenal, isn't it? I know. Jovo Ole, Ole, Ole, I think he was. I mean, he likes... So Carlos Fernandes comes out, you know, Amarillo's number two. He's the one there that gets pointed out by Amarillo. Go and be on the technical edge of the box to kind of make sure people are in the right positions. He's the set-piece guy now, not Andreas Jorgesen, who obviously was from the start of this summer. And yeah, Jovo comes out for Arsenal and he's there sort of at the edge of the technical box, like, you know,

surveying the scene and making sure players are doing what they want and yeah he's getting a song sung about him so I mean yeah that's what football is in 2024 I guess. Just on the corners again do you think United will look to change this moving forward Laurie? What was the vibe that Ruben Amorim was given after the game? Because even when it is that congested Onana can't really do anything he can't go and clear out four, five, six people in front of him really because I saw a bit of scrutiny about whether he could have dealt with it differently but I

It's so congested. I think that the expectation of him coming out to claim those balls is just going to lead to errors. What was the vibe? I mean, after the game, actually, it was quite a pointed comment, really. It was the first one we've had from him so far. Obviously, he's been so charismatic and pretty nice that I think he, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but he was saying that

you know, Saka and Martinelli, they basically go on the outside when they're attacking in open play more often than come inside because they know they can win a corner that way. So he was kind of saying that Arsenal play for corners, which Arteta was asked about when he then came in. And yeah, he didn't seem too pleased about that. So I wonder if that's like a little, tiny little bit of needle between them that might develop as the season goes on. But I think he also, like you said, was kind of,

maybe disappointed that United were giving away corners too easily 13 to concede is a lot and obviously Rashford was trying to juggle the ball to clear it for one of the goals so

clearly just sort of switch on to that danger but it's early days so he then this change with the set piece coach you know like i say it's carlos fernandez now you know that's going to have responsibility for them not andreas george and let's see if as the season goes on you get some tweaks because clearly when you talk about the priorities what they're trying to look at in training i'm not saying that they're disregarding it they're clearly working on set pieces and they actually are doing it in the warm-ups aren't they yeah yeah so that's that's a change i've

I wonder, you know, on the actual training pitches, is there enough time to kind of really drill down into exactly what to do in different moments? Well, we'll see moving forward whether it becomes an issue for United in other matches. And obviously at the other end, they obviously got the goal against Everton from a set piece and that was a point of encouragement from attacking corners. So we'll see how that develops. Let's just talk about Lenny Oro, Andy. You mentioned before about him

getting minutes. It was his Manchester United debut in competitive football anyway. What did you think about him? I thought his first pass was a bit rusty, which it's going to be because he's not been playing football. I really liked the way Trossard was running towards goal and Lenny Joro. It looked like Trossard had got past him, but he just got in and got a foot and stopped the Arsenal attack. So I heard such good things about him and he was scouted by Manchester United long before the new regime took over.

I hope he is as good as people say that he is. Equally, he's very, very young. He's going to make mistakes. He's living in a new country, although his injuries actually helped him get used to living in a new country. Now it's about getting used to Premier League football, which is very difficult. But going back to when we signed and the discussions we had and the people we spoke to, he could be the best French central defender for the next decade.

We've had top potential before, but it seems like we've got Rafael Varane

the new Rafael Varane at the right age now, rather than watching him go to Madrid and getting him when he's a lot more expensive and a lot more older and a lot more injury-prone. I asked Amarim in the press conference before the game about how excited he was to work with Jorah and what he'd seen in him so far. And he spoke about his pace, he spoke about his quality on the ball and about how important he's going to be for United's defence moving forward in terms of covering ground. I mean, do you see him playing...

On the sides of this back three, Laurie, do you think that's predominantly where he's going to be used? I think so, just because if you've got De Ligt in your team and Maguire, clearly they're going to be the central defender because of the mobility thing, right? So it kind of makes sense to have them in the centre and let the auxiliary, I don't know if that's the right word, centre-backs kind of go and press because that's...

in answer to your question from the press conference, Amarim spoke about wanting defenders that were really good one-on-one and I think that's what Joro brings, right? He's got that speed, he's got that aggression, that desire to get on the ball and go and win it higher up and that was actually something I think that he wanted from Masraoui earlier on in the game. I think he was a little bit uncertain because he was playing on the left side of defence rather than on the right and he was kind of imploring him to get forward and kind of press Odegaard. He was playing in between the lines and

Masraoui looked a little bit uncertain but I think that's the whole ethos of what Amarim wants, this kind of man-to-man almost defending when you haven't got the ball and then you can win it back quicker and break dynamically. Last point on this Andy, it ended Amarim's 34 match unbeaten run in league football, obviously lion's share of that because it's time at Sporting clearly but obviously it punctuates his start at Manchester United as well.

He said in the press conference that the storm will come. I'm not sure it was quite a storm, but nevertheless, it probably spells out quite how early in the process this match came for him and for his team. And there could well be bigger steps back than the Emirates. There could be. Look at the league position. We know that Manchester United are not that good.

Ameren also said, I've got to watch what I'm saying a little bit. So I think he knows he's being a little bit too honest. But Arsenal away could have been a stomp. Manchester City away could be a stomp. Nottingham Forest are a decent team coming to Old Trafford. There are prickly hedgehogs every single week now for Manchester United. And we can see how bad it is if we just look at last December when it was the worst December since 1933 for Manchester United with five defeats.

I'm not going to say I can almost live with a couple more defeats, but let's be realistic about this. Manchester United are not going to be winning every game.

in December with them tough matches. I think that for the encouraging bits that we saw, and I asked him about this after the game, he talked about the structure. If we can see more evidence that United are improving, if we could see, for example, that Lenny Yoro is actually really good and he starts playing regularly. Ahmad, who didn't start, he's been encouraging. That's the stuff, not just results, that Manchester United fans will cling to.

I'm all for being surprised and going away and beating Manchester City but it's difficult it's very very difficult and the circumstances of him coming without a pre-season only add to that as well I'm having him I like him I like the cut of his jib I watched him pretty closely last night he was using his area better than an arna he was pacing about here there and everywhere he's a prowler isn't he he's a prowler and Arteta was a little bit as well

I am enjoying watching Manchester United because it was a defeat for him, but I think seven games unbeaten before that. And all those seven games were matches you would have expected Manchester United to win, but I also expected Manchester United to beat FC20 in September.

Okay, well, another story that we wanted to reflect on this episode was Adam Crafton's story, which dropped on The Athletic in the build-up to Wednesday's match at Arsenal. And that was that Manchester United's players reportedly abandoned their plans to wear warm-up jackets in support of the Rainbow Laces campaign before the win over Everton at the weekend after Nusayir Mazraoui reportedly refused to join the initiative.

for religious reasons. Now, if you're not aware of what the Premier League's Rainbow Laces campaign is, it's a campaign which supports the LGBTQ plus community and aims to make everyone welcome and feel included at matches. As we speak now, there has never been any current Premier League player who has come out as gay. And of course, that isn't reflective of wider society. As you'd imagine, we've had lots of emails on this from lots of different perspectives today.

to be fair. So, of course, as usual, we will try to reflect your views in our conversation. But first of all, Laurie, what's your reaction to this? I think it's probably one of sadness because the whole ethos of the campaign, right, is just to make people feel inclusive and it's not...

to, you know, advocate a certain message wholeheartedly that people have to adhere to. But it's just a little sign to say, you know, we're with you. There's so many people that watch football that are gay and it's just a sign to say, yeah, we're with you, we're supportive because there have been really difficult times that they've experienced in their lives. You know, it's not easy to come out at all and also, you know,

you do have homophobic chanting at games and things like that, that I think this is just a little sign to say we are with you. And so United have done work like this before. They've worn a couple of Adidas jackets in the past, in the last two seasons, that have had a little flick of colour, basically, to sort of say that's what it's about. Equally, I do think everyone has the right to have their own opinions on it. And so if Masraoui didn't want to wear it, I don't think he should have had to be forced to wear it for certain. But I think then, because it...

it became this thing about a squad and a team. You can understand football players, some of them in the dressing room will want to show solidarity for a teammate because that's what comes first in their minds, the sporting integrity of the team. But then it kind of probably has made it so that other players that probably would have wanted to wear it haven't been able to. So you've kind of got the total flip of...

happen and then obviously it's become a story and people might say well you know you're journalists at the athletic looking for stories and making it a big thing it's been actually quite striking some of the responses to this on the athletic app and obviously on social media and my thoughts do go out to people that are affected by it because you know you know adam's a fantastic journalist and you know he certainly had a difficult time i think since this story's come out i hope i'm not sort of speaking out of turn by saying that

because it is and he won't want me sort of batting on his behalf at all but you know he's strong enough to kind of you know ride through it but he's just doing his job in terms of reporting a story that I think is of note to people it certainly has been because of the reaction that we've seen to it

And I certainly know that the Rainbow Devils group that you've got that follow United, they go to matches home and away. They are fans, basically, but equally they're fans that have got a common cause that want to just make sure that their full personalities are reflected. I think that's fine. People should be able to live how they want in modern society and

I think that it's not a major deal to have this little period of time that is just dedicated to touching on those themes, right? I think it's fair enough that football, it's trying to be inclusive for everybody. So that's the idea behind it. And I feel like this...

is there enough conversation I suppose going on around it to make sure that footballers understand what the causes are what the reasons are clearly you know Masraoui's got a stance based on his religious beliefs there was some pushback from Bayern Munich fans when he expressed support for another player in France that pushed her back against the campaign that they had over there so you know this is something that I guess he won't change his mind on which is which is okay you know that's that's up to him but

but I do feel like it shouldn't then affect the other players in the squad if they want to support it. Yeah, Rainbow Devils released a response or a statement to Adam's piece. They said, Andy, that they were disappointed by this situation. They said that they respect...

the right of the player to have his own views whilst they also felt disappointed that he put the rest of the squad in a position where they felt they couldn't wear the jackets. They also said that they worried about the kind of negative effect the incident might have on any player at the club who might be struggling with their sexuality. I guess that is the point a little bit is that

the players seemingly choosing to support Masraoui's position and not single him out, as opposed to actually supporting the campaign. Yeah, it's an individual decision. I love the fact that Rainbow Devils exists. As Laurie says, you should feel free to go and watch football and not feel threatened because of your sexuality, for example. I've seen big changes in the crowd at Old Trafford, very progressive changes over the years.

From a time in the 1980s when it was pretty grim, where racism and homophobia was pretty prevalent, where you would hear songs and you can still hear some songs which are deeply offensive. If it was me, my personal choice would be to support it and to wear it. For him, with his religion, with his constituents, it's clearly far more complicated. A respect to players' rights

to make their own decision. But you can see by the reactions from Adam's piece, and Adam, as Laurie says, is a top journalist, is a Manchester lad, Adam.

I think he's really brave in his reporting. Adam's an award-winning journalist as well. Adam asks questions sometimes which are difficult, which other journalists shy away from. That's what proper journalism should do. I'm in support of it. Yeah, Laurie, the Rainbow Laces campaign this year has brought, it feels like, more controversy than previous seasons, maybe. I mean, we've got the situation with the Ipswich captain, Sam Morsi, deciding not to wear...

the rainbow captain's armband. Mark Gay's now written two messages, two different messages on his armband as well during this campaign. I mean, it's become a little bit of an argument between, it's almost a religious argument in a way, which I don't suppose was the original intention of the campaign for it to be this. It is more about showing support to people

people from the LGBTQ plus community and feeling like football is a welcoming place for them, feeling like as players that someone at some point can feel confident enough to be able to express their own sexuality, which I think is an incredibly sad state of affairs that we as a society cannot accept.

seem to accept that a footballer can come out as gay or at least that's why it feels like no one has stepped forward so far but at the same time being properly respectful of the opposite view because that's kind of the point in a way as well because the wider point is about inclusion and about respecting people's views and respecting people's individuality as well it's a very complicated situation but it kind of all shows why this campaign exists doesn't it

Yeah, and I mean, has all this actually, you know, harmed the campaign because it's, you know, made it a divisive issue? Or has it actually, you know, raised awareness and sort of raised the point of, well, this is still something that we need to discuss in this, in 2024. And that's why there should be little moments in the season that kind of just reflect and reflect.

touch on people's hardships that they've had throughout their lives just to be able to support football you know people might say well it's a societal issue why are you bringing it into football well because you've got fans that clearly want to support their club and want to be able to sort of show their support fully. Well football is used as a vehicle for affecting change as well and shifting opinions in society isn't it I mean there are a lot of people who are

watching football, Premier League football during this period. And if the messaging can reach those people through football, then it will be used for this. It's used for lots of campaigns similar to this, you know, the anti-racism campaigns which go on as well. It's not new this that football is used in this way. Yeah, and it's not a lifestyle choice, is it? It's not like, you know, I quite like...

I don't know, the colour red, you know, it's something fundamental to these people's makeup and therefore you can't just sort of say, oh, well, actually, can we not talk about it? Can we not be like that? You know, it's just who they are. Yeah, you are right in terms of it clearly being an issue now. You've got Gehi, Morsi, Masraoui, obviously religious beliefs, you know, should be absolutely respected as well. Is there enough communication maybe? If these players feel like they're being, you know, just told to do it, then that's,

I suppose, where the pushback might come from and if there's a way of having a communication about it. I don't know, maybe they'll always feel like this and they won't want to wear it either for their own beliefs or knowing that if they wear something like that that signifies support for that, then they're going to get criticised from their own demographics. So, yeah, but I feel like it's...

I don't know, I just have the utmost respect and admiration for the guys at Rainbow Laces because I feel like it is a difficult life to have led in a way, you know, to kind of come out to people and just, you know, have this appreciation of who you are. And it feels like a little moment, a little touch to say, we're with you, we can support you, be who you want to be at a football match. Right.

Okay, well, I'm sure this won't be the last thing we hear about this situation. And Kiva O'Neill has written an article on The Athletic about the broader issue surrounding the Rainbow Laces campaign this year and about the message as well. So if you do want to go and read more about this situation and about the campaign, of course, you can go and do that. With Lululemon, the real gift happens when your holiday checklist is complete. When you give them the coziest scuba matching set, you both get moments like this and this.

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Right, let's have a flick of a preview then to Nottingham Forest this weekend. 5.30 on Saturday evening at Old Trafford, Andy Mitten. And they've had a good season so far in Nottingham Forest, but they've lost three of the last four. So maybe we are facing them at a decent-ish time. Good. I spoke to a Forest fan last week and asked, why are you having a good season? Because I'm not watching Forest every week. And he's just like...

The defence works, the midfield duo are relentless tacklers, the wingers are speedy and one of them has a special trick that seems to work more than it should. Let's hope it's not corners popping in on Arnaud's head and Manchester United have learnt from that.

The striker is at a superb run of form, scoring loads of goals. It's a real surprise to Forest fans that they have done so well. They've had some amazing results. They beat Liverpool. They've been really close to the top of the table at times, but they're struggling in the last few matches. I don't know what to expect. I mean, Forest ruined my 21st birthday because Stan Collymore scored a couple of goals. I think that was the only defeat that season. 94-95 came to Old Trafford.

Saturday afternoon, my 21st was that night. Nice one, Stan. I've told him about it 600 times since. I think that's my earliest memory at Old Trafford, actually. That game, yeah. Not to make you feel old. That wasn't my intention, but yeah. Yeah. I just remember Stan Collymore scoring and there being a sense of... Was it the first goals they conceded at home for a while as well or something like that? I said, which Forest players this season are doing well? Yeah.

Ayena, have I pronounced that wrong Ian? You always pull me back. Ayena, yeah, he's been excellent at right back, very good. Faster than Kyle Walker. Well a few have been recently, yeah. The Serbian defender. Serbian captain. Milenkovic, yeah. Nemanja Vidic is his hero, yeah, Nikola Milenkovic, he's been excellent. Murillo next to him as well, very, very good. As I walked to Arsenal last night, I was surrounded by Arsenal and this big group of Mancs walked past singing the Vidic song, so I thought yes.

quite enjoyed that. To be fair, the games they've lost have been Newcastle at home, which, you know, Newcastle can do that to good sides, can't they? They nearly did it to Liverpool last night. Arsenal away, Manchester City away. So, you know, they're not, it's not like they've fallen off a cliff. The easy game that they had during that run, they won against Ipswich Lorry. So,

I do think this is going to be a challenge for United, definitely. Yeah, I mean, you've got a striker in Chris Wood who is up there with the top scorers in the Premier League. They've obviously got a good, consistent way of playing. And yeah, I feel like I need to apologise for some Nuno slander that I said on this podcast previously where I was suggesting that he wouldn't necessarily be a success at Nottingham Forest. So clearly he has...

galvanised them in a way they've obviously got quality right they've got players that can do things on the ball Hudson-Odoi came through at Chelsea he was always thought of as somebody that

maybe was more hype than substance but actually I think at Forest he's found a really good level really good niche and he changes things up doesn't he Nuno it doesn't necessarily play him and Alanga all the time it's different horses for courses so they have got different ways of beating you or scoring goals against you at least I think it is all based on that defence they've got a really good defensive record so United will have to be better than they were at the Emirates to be able to break them down

No Luke Shaw for this game, Andy. Just looking at the line-up for Manchester United and obviously we saw his statement which he released once it became clear that he'd not travelled to London for the match against Arsenal. It's been described as a minor setback but it could be a few weeks until we see him back in the United team. I mean, part of me feels...

sorry for him that he suffered this again and part of me just feels frustrated at the general situation that he he can't seem to be able to get himself fit yeah i agree with that i saw it for no not again but yeah he doesn't want to be injured does he but there comes a point but i could have said this at the start of 2017 he's missed so much football not like phil jones levels but

Ruben Amorim was pretty supportive of him in the post-match press conference. He said he's a top player. He also said not just for your club, as if all the journalists support Manchester United, which they absolutely don't, but your country, your

And Luke Shaw was playing for England in 2014, wasn't he? He was a kid. He was at Southampton. He played in the worst game ever. I'm going to refer to it again. England 0, Costa Rica 0, Belo Horizonte in the World Cup. Did you just pronounce Costa Rica wrong? Costa Rica? No. I think you just said Costa Rico. Costa Rica. My Spanish might get me anything. But go on then. I was going to say that. You pronounce Belo Horizonte then.

You just pronounced it two different ways, so which one am I supposed to follow? Yeah, because I'm tricking you. How would you pronounce Brazil's... Belo Horizonte. Right, go on, Laurie.

Well, didn't you do a little Belo Horizonte? Yeah, I did, but I was hoping you weren't hearing because you were on your phone. No, I listened. I was perceptive there. Yeah, all right. So, Luke, get back as soon as possible. We'd love to see you playing football every week, but there's so many buts there. It's just frustrating and sad, as you say. I'm glad Forrest are up. United didn't play them from that game when we scored eight in 99 until they came up two years ago. Now we play them every two weeks.

Laurie, six more changes for United. Who do you see being the six this time? Yeah, yeah, could see it. I mean, yeah. Yeah.

Start for Lenny Yoro. Ahmad, obviously, will come back in. I would think that's a given. Casemiro. Yeah, I think Ahmad will come back in. I don't think Yoro will start just because after the game, Amrin made a point of saying how he had to manage minutes and he said, we really have to manage the minutes of Yoro. Fair enough. Mainu and Martinez are back from suspension as well. So you think they'd be in contention? Yeah, you'd think those would be in, wouldn't you? Yeah, I mean, on Luke's show, it's a sad state of affairs, isn't it? I mean, one thing that Amrin did say last night was that he works...

he's working really hard, he's working in the gym, on the pitches, but he said he was losing weight, so it just suggests to me that there was, you know, when you have these injury layoffs, there's obviously something that you need to keep physically, and it must be difficult for him to maintain that, and I think the leg break that he had, right, I think that's obviously had so much of an impact for years to come, that still he's working his way through, but I think that really does impact now,

what United need to do in the market. We already thought this anyway, didn't we? And maybe January's too soon. They're saying it's very unlikely that they'll make major changes. But I think that that left-sided defence really does need additions, right? At least one proper left wing back to come into the squad. And then we could make more changes in January, Ian.

We'll see, eh? One last thing to reflect on before we finish. Nottingham Forest on Saturday also sees the new United We Stand on offer. Your interview was to Jim Radcliffe. Andy, how can people get it and read it if they want to get it? Yeah, it's on sale at Old Trafford from sort of two o'clock. Support the fanzines. We've got a big print bill to pay. You can get it online. That'll be midnight on Saturday going into Sunday. It's 4,000 words. There's an awful lot in there.

It's a very robust chat. We agree on things and we disagree on other stuff, but I felt it was really important to put issues to him, such as the ticket prices that we've discussed in recent weeks and for him to understand the strength of feeling on the ticket prices. So, yeah.

support the fanzines don't rip it off don't go for these aggregator accounts ripping off our work adding absolutely nothing a lot of work goes into getting an interview like that okay I look forward to reading it thank you Andy and thank you Laurie as well thank you both for being on Talk The Devils this morning thank you for listening thank you for your emails and yeah if you do want to get in touch with the pod ever remember the email address devilspod at theathletic.com but we'll speak to you after Forest thanks again bye bye

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