Varane on Ten Hag and club accounts reignite debt debate
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This is Talk of the Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up, we get into all the details of the Rafa Varane exclusive with Charlotte Harper on the Athletic. Revelations about his relationship with Eric Ten Hag, how he felt about being a Manchester United player. The club's accounts were also released. Of course, the latest financial picture confirming what we've been talking about, the challenges that Manchester United are facing at the moment. We can go over the details of that again. And of course, we will look forward to

to Manchester United's final trip to Goodison Park to take on Everton this weekend, David Moyes and everything else as well. We've got Karl Anker and Andy Mithson with us. Hello, gentlemen. But we also have Charlotte with us as well. Good morning, Charlotte. Thank you for coming on. What a 24 hours you've had with this Rafa Varane exclusive. I thought you were going to say bonjour there, Ian. Bonjour, mon ami. That's all my French.

Yeah, it's an interesting one when you go and have a nice chat with someone a week ago, then you write it up and of course that nice chat has a bit of spice to it. Yeah, he's an interesting character, there's no question about that. Obviously, he left Manchester United, Carl, last summer. We thought he was going to continue playing football, but it's not worked out that way for him. No, he went to Como in Serie A recently for our team, played minimal minutes and then...

unfortunately got injured and decided to retire. I really enjoyed his retirement post. It was in typical Varane fashion, done with class. Yeah, and he's got an interesting new role as well, which I'll ask you about in a moment, Charlotte. But Varane, Andy, you had some dealings with him at United, didn't you? Yeah, I interviewed him in Spanish for United We Stand and he was quite good. He was a replacement for a player who

Who couldn't do it. And I'd like to think that I had a decent chat with him. It was most interesting when we weren't talking about football. And then in September, I went to Como. I hoped to speak to him and messaged his brother. He didn't get back to me. I walked to the stadium in Como, but the timing was atrocious. He'd got injured, I think, a couple of days before.

Tried to get in the stadium, they wouldn't let me in. Completely knocked me back. So I'm having an argument with the security guy on the stadium in Como. So that was a bit of a disaster. I thought Charlotte did a brilliant job of it. It was really interesting for me to read it. Feel slightly conflicted because I know he was a very good player for...

Madrid mostly, but in some games he was brilliant for Manchester United, top, top level. I think he's a smart thinker. I think he tries to understand fan culture. I noticed him on the terraces at Lons.

I wish it could have worked out better for him at Manchester United. And I've got to be honest, there were some complications. I know some journalists found him a little bit of a struggle to deal with. Don't think it was always the easiest fit for him at Manchester United. But really good interview. Well done, Charlotte. Yeah, Charlotte, let's get into some of the details of it. I mean, first of all, what is this new role that he's got at Como?

Good question. Yeah, I think this, this, you know, this wasn't expected 23 minutes into his debut, and his left knee goes. And that's where he was saying he tore his meniscus in his right knee 12 years ago. So when he knew the left knee, he was like, right, that's it, I've compensated for this right knee all my life.

So the role is on the board of Como. It takes an educational aspect. So he's, you know, really interested in youth development, passing on his experience to that. Set up some summer camps this year and also then on kind of more innovation, fan engagement, because he does have a business mind. So yeah.

incorporating those two aspects of his life but it's a massive change like imagine going from professional football he's only 31 and you know I was asking about this what what are you happy about and he said it's something new it's a challenge but of course you miss that adrenaline and that rush that that's irreplaceable what's your French like Charlotte? C'est bien. What does that mean? I was about to say do you speak French Andy? No.

And I used to be able to say, I have a rabbit called Coco and I live in a city in the northwest of England, which is industrial. I got really told off for my French exams. My French teacher, Madame Garrett, looked at me and said, your mind is clearly elsewhere. I am so disappointed in you. And of course it was. I had 500 fanzines to sell against Charlton the next day. I had a business to run.

Sorry, Mrs. Garrett, I've got us showing off. When everybody says, oh, you know, my favourite subject is, and I've got two dogs, like that's the way languages are taught in this country, but that is another matter and we're not going into that. No, that is a rabbit hole, not a cocoa rabbit hole, but maybe another type of rabbit hole that we could save for another podcast. Let's get back to the topic at hand. Fundamentally, Charlotte, when you read the article, when you read what he thinks about his time at Old Trafford, the

There is a fondness there, but it's very different to the way that he speaks about his time at Real Madrid. Did that really come through as part of the conversation? Yeah, I mean, we spoke about Real Madrid. He had an amazing time there, 18 trophies and played with some of the best, you know, Bale, Modric, Ronaldo, Benzema. And then that was the contrast to Manchester United, right?

So yes, as you will read in the article and as we'll talk about, he was very critical of Manchester United in some aspects. And we'll go into more detail that. But he was very fond of the fans. He loved Manchester. He was telling me how a lorry driver pulled up and the lorry driver said, wind down your window, wind down your window. And Raphael Varane is in a pretty nice car, as you would expect.

And he's like, I don't want to wind down my window. So he wound it down. And the lorry driver said, oh, nice car, mate. What do you do? Oh, I'm a footballer. Oh, right. For which club? Manchester United.

oh yeah oh great have a good day mate and he was so surprised that that Mancunian didn't want anything there was no jealousy it was just like nice girl have a good day and yeah he was very fond of the Manchester United fans that engagement that love that respect he absolutely felt it and he made sure that I knew about that yeah the tactics as well wasn't it um

Karl, I'm sure this would have tickled your fancy, but the idea of the freedom of expression that he had at Real compared to United fascinated me. Yeah, the prescriptive nature of playing on the Eric Ten Hag compared to the freedom on Don Carlo Ancelotti. And Zidane as well, to be fair. I was reading that and I went, well, yeah, obviously it's a lot easier to be a bit more freeform when you're Real Madrid and you can buy pretty much any football player you want from

It's a bit different when you're having to play with Ex-Oisea United, but this is the Rafa Varane way. We know Laurie talked about before how Varane, partway through his final season at United, along with Casemiro, thought a new style of coaching that was more Ancelotti-esque might be more beneficial to Manchester United. So to have him confirm it, yeah, that was enlightening. Remember Fulham away last season on this podcast? Yes.

Yep, full of my weight. Remember I dropped hints like large bricks before the game? Like large bricks. So this is the game where Harry Maguire, to my mind, looked like he got concussed and then sort of laboured his way through the rest of this game.

You mentioned something about changes in the defence, didn't you? Yeah, Rafa didn't start and we predicted the line-up before the game and I said he wasn't going to start because I think the tension between him and the manager had reached a point. They both got their perspectives and he puts his across. I love the term muscular from...

Charlotte sat as a way to describe the conversation. So you can see that he clearly thinks about his words. And another thing, remember the cup final when I said, spoke to several players afterwards on this podcast, half of them were having the manager, half of them weren't really, but none of them said he has to go, but none of them were like adamant he has to stay. That got slapped back at me about four months later with people saying, why have you not said this before? Well, I said it like two hours after the FA Cup final on this very podcast and

I think what we can glean from that is we'd like Manchester United to be a much happier camp than it was. You suspect there's tensions. It's not in any of their interest to come out and say that there's tensions, but there were creative tensions last season. Well, yeah, and now one of them has come out and explained that. I mean, we won't play...

any other clip of the interview because it's in French and as we've established even on this panel that the French is pretty limited but I think you can hear in this clip exactly the relationship between Varane and Ten Hag this is Raphael Varane trying to find the words to describe that very relationship What was your relationship with Eric? How was it? It was...

He got there in the end, Charlotte, didn't he? What was the word that he stumbled upon eventually? Well, the first one is particulier.

You can translate that in various ways in French. It could be special. It could be unique. It could be particular. But this is kind of idiosyncratic is the word. And then he said tendu, tense. Okay. And he goes on to say it's compliqué, it's complicated. Sometimes Eric Ten Hag listened to the player's feelings. Other times he didn't.

And I think Raphael Varane was choosing his words carefully. He's an intelligent man. But tendu and compliqué, tense, complicated, were...

the key ones that he came back to. Yeah, it's interesting because we know that Ten Hag had to deal with a lot of different problems at Manchester United. He had to deal with a lot of individual players causing problems for him, like Ronaldo, like Jadon Sancho. But Varane in the interview, Charlotte, sort of makes clear that he felt that

But Ten Hag needed these conflicts almost, which I didn't expect to be part of the narrative, actually. Yeah, he said that his management style at times perhaps was to rule by fear. And as Andy mentioned in that, you know, fill them away, they had a...

muskler, a robust discussion, a heated discussion and he told him some home truths about how he felt that his relationship with the team wasn't benefiting the team. Now I asked him, I said well was the fact that Eric Ten Hag didn't play you, why was that? And he said I don't know, all he said was it was for the best of the team so a tactical choice and Eric Ten Hag said that in media as well.

So I said, well, when you said he was ruling by fear and wanted to make examples of people, did he want to make an example of you? And he clarified, no, he felt that he wasn't one such as, and he cited Cristiano Ronaldo or Jadon Sancho that he was making an example of. But he did say throughout Eric Ten Hag's management career, he always had to have somebody put to the side or an example to be made of.

We have to remember that this is his perspective. Eric Ten Hag will have another perspective. Some people at United felt that Varane didn't have the physical capability to adopt a high line. The same with Ronaldo when you're pressing, so then you have this donut midfield. Ten Hag stood by that. You may have very influential, very experienced players in the dressing room that can be

attract other players to join with them and follow their thought process. Other players may have not agreed with what Varane said. So you do have to have some balance here, but Varane landed on the fact that Eric Ten Hag and him obviously had their differences.

Yeah, I think that's safe to say. Andy, what do you think Ten Hag would say in response to this? I think Eric Ten Hag would be very reluctant to say anything publicly, but maybe he's slightly triggered. But as Charlotte says...

Both sides are entitled to their point of view. Humans are allowed to differ in opinion. I think Eric Ten Haag felt he was only trying to do what was best for Manchester United. Sometimes it's difficult to manage when you've got, I wouldn't say ego, but you've got these huge, huge names. I think increasingly towards the end of Varane's time at United... It's ego, Andy, isn't it? It is ego. I think that's all right. And money as well. These are all competitors. They're allowed to have egos. Yeah.

And ego can be a good thing in that environment. But towards the end of his time, I think it was looked at how many minutes are we getting for his wages, which were one of the highest in the world.

and we can see now that he was probably the first to be called from the INEOS cost-cutting, because again, I saw him play some really good games for Manchester United. I can remember speaking to him after the others, and he was buzzing for it. Charlotte's line about really falling for Manchester, we heard similar from Casemiro this week.

Professional footballers do like it because there is that respect which Charlotte spoke about. They're not getting smothered. They get recognised, but they get left alone. One of my mate's wives saw a bit of a fuss around someone in Altrincham. And she said, what do you do? And he said, I'm a footballer. She went, oh, like for Altrincham, because Altrincham have got a good team. He went, no, Manchester United played it right down. That was Johnny Evans.

He reminds her about that all the time. Sacrilege not to recognise Johnny Evans. They even like the weather, Charlotte, don't they? The Mancunian weather, it turns out. Yeah, Lake Como, everyone was going, oh, great trip, beautiful sunshine. I mean, it was, but it was raining. And Rafa said this is his perfect kind of training weather that he used to like to play in. He'd have got plenty of that. Yeah.

Yeah, especially in Manchester. Weather chat's never the most interesting, is it? But I do think it was funny that he did like the drizzle.

Karl, just going back to a point that we were making a bit earlier on in this conversation. The idea that Varane wanted more free approach. He wanted the manager to trust the players to be able to work things out themselves on the pitch. That's what they did during his very successful time in Spain. That sort of jars with what we've all demanded in a way of a Manchester United manager. We've wanted...

coming in to have a bit more of a style of play and a bit more of a system to play to. But it does explain why United still seem to thrive in chaos, doesn't it, in a way? I suppose it's a case of personal preference. There have been Talk of the Devils episodes where we criticised...

I should be specific. I criticised Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. Thank you, Carl. For the lack of structure. And I questioned whether or not that lack of structure was going to keep Manchester United away from winning the big trophies. And then you come in and you have a manager like Eric Ten Hag who was overly prescriptive. And now we're having conversations about whether or not Ruben Amor is too dogmatic. I think it comes down to player quality.

I want to find a kinder word than player intelligence, but we're going to go for player intelligence as well. There has to be a balance. Look, if you... I...

particularly enjoy watching Manchester City and it's not just because I'm a Manchester United fan but it's also because I like a little bit more improvisational quality when Real Madrid are carving Man City asunder and I can tell that this isn't pre-prescribed that's quite fun however to do it the Real Madrid way that's really hard to do you need a lot of money to bring in the sort of players that can do that over and over and over and over and over again and this is why so many football clubs in Europe now are getting more straightforward

structured routines because the structure protects you for when when you don't have a football player like Kylian Mbappe you can go and go off and score a hat-trick when you don't have a centre-back as good as a young Rafael Varane who can sweep up 30 to 40 yards and make a huge tackle at the end when you don't have a goalkeeper who's as good as Courtois or even David De Gea in 2018 you do need to structure in there eventually and I suppose it's all about finding the right balance

Even just listening to that clip of Varane in French talking about Ten Hag, it really does feel like oil and water here. You've got this soft-spoken, very erudite... I mean, Varane almost talks like a politician, at least when the quotes are translated into English here. And then you've got Eric Ten Hag, who is incredibly Dutch, super-duper Dutch, from the border. They called him a farm boy, even in the capital city of the Netherlands. And I think if you look at a lot of the...

at least through the United career, of the players who had fallen out with Eric Ten Hag. I think this might just be a case of one speaks cat and the other one speaks dog. And how they go about conflict resolution is just two very different styles of personality going on. I think he struggled with injuries and maybe the Premier League, which I remember him telling me it was far more intense than Spain. Spain was more technical, but the Premier League was non-stop. And

I know he was frustrated to work his way back from injury, get back in and then get another injury. He was good talking about the way the English teams counter-attack and that the key moment in a game is when you lose the ball and how you recover that

the ball and it was more pressure from the forwards in England they run more they press more in Spain it was about them going back to their position so that the team kept the structure so he had to get used to that at quite a late stage in his career but you could see his class you could see his speed there were some good moments but unfortunately

He won't be the type of guy who in 15 years' time people will be paying to see an evening with Rafael Varane because he's not got enough stories about trophies. I just wish it could have been better. I wish we could have signed him when Ferguson really made an effort for him. United lost out to Real Madrid, as we did with Karim Benzema. Karim Benzema is his best friend, him and Paul Pogba.

United were really spot on to identifying when he was 22 at Lons, but no, Madrid, and you get why someone might choose Madrid over Manchester United, but

But we did get him. I'm sounding hesitant because I just wished, like with many players, it would have worked out better. I will just touch on, interestingly, and this didn't make the interview cut, he felt that his injuries were kind of too mediatised. He said that everyone felt like he was injured all the time, but he didn't feel that at all. It was interesting from his perspective there. And I was interested, he said Bruno Fernandes was his best bud. Oh, at United. That is interesting.

Yeah. It's interesting that media ties, you know, do we fall for this a little bit? I'm looking at, he played 29, 34 and 32 games in his three seasons at Man United. You know, it's not bad. It's not bad. You also consider there is a time period where Rafa Varane is fit and available to play football, but Eric Ten Hag opted to play Johnny Evans in there, like you say, in the Fulham game. So he could have played more, but also,

While the signing is good in isolation, and it was a great day when he comes out in his suit and he looks amazing and he's embraced by Rio Ferdinand, a lot of rival clubs for Manchester United were going younger with their centre-backs and trying to get centre-backs that could play more than 95 matches in three seasons. Because United, ideally, at least on their Ektan Haag, were trying to play 60 games per season. Just to finish, Charlotte, on this section, if we can, the final knife was he was surprised Ten Hag survived the summer.

There was no doubt about that. I asked him, were you surprised? He said, yes. I said, why? He said, because the connection with the group no longer existed.

That is very telling. He said there was a global questioning around Eric Ten Hag's positioning going into that FA Cup final, which we all knew. And it was interesting that when he was frozen out in his words and I asked if there was a kind of reconciliation, he said no, but everyone else was injured. So I had to play back in.

And then he played 10 out of the 12, 90 minutes, full on. And then he got his injury again in April. He did say that he has to credit Eric Ten Haag for giving him the space and kind of calmness to recover and put him back into that FA Cup final, which Varane really had a good game in. But...

He also said that that FA Cup trophy meant a lot to him emotionally. It was really, really good to sign off against City at Wembley. And yeah, there is criticism. There's criticism about the structure. There is a lot of meat in that article. But at the end, he did say, you know, this criticism should be constructive and well-intentioned. I do want the best for Manchester United because overall, I had a positive experience.

Yeah, that's nice to know, isn't it? It's a brilliant interview. It's a great get. It's made a fascinating article on The Athletic. I'd recommend any Manchester United fan to go and have a look at that. And Charlotte, thank you so much for coming on Talk The Devils to talk about it today as well. When you think about red-hot businesses like Allbirds or Skims, they have a lot in common. A great product, a cool brand and brilliant marketing, and a business supporting them along the way to make selling simple. That's where Shopify comes in.

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Marvel Television's Daredevil, Born Again. Don't miss the two-episode premiere March 4th, only on Disney+. Manchester United published their latest accounts on Wednesday. There are articles on The Athletic from Mark Critchley, as you'd expect, explaining the situation for United, but they made sobering reading, Andy. We knew that we would. We've spoken about it on the podcast in recent weeks. They were pretty much what we expected. But one major headline from it,

that the Manchester United Supporters Trust pointed out. The £18.8 million debt interest payment for the six months to the 31st of December takes the total interest cost for the Glazers to more than £1 billion.

And I shudder at that because it should never, ever have been allowed to happen. It is just disgraceful and we've been saying it for 20 years and the fans protested for a reason 20 years ago and nothing has changed.

It really saddens me that that takeover was allowed to happen when he did that highly leveraged takeover. And the analogy I've used was Manchester United was swimming along just fine. But if you put one brick on top and two bricks on top and put eight or 10 bricks on the back of Manchester United, at some point that swim is going to sink completely.

We're seeing that because it is an inefficient way, in fairness to the Glazers, and I don't have a lot of time for them at all. They did nothing illegal then. They were actually pretty smart, cunning, call it that, to do what they did. But it's payback time because the fundamentals are pretty simple. Manchester United were geared up to be playing Champions League football and they're not.

And there's a massive deficit, and that's where you see all of these cutbacks. Critch's piece is really, really good. The stuff from Must yesterday was really sobering as well. And their headline take was the pre-tax loss, the fact that the club had spent £14.5 million giving Eric Tenaga a new contract, sacking him four months later, the interest payments, as you say,

And without the INEOS cash injection of 80 million, Manchester United would be down to 15 million in cash. Manchester United are basically going bust. If you're looking at these figures, without that injection, and even with that injection, it's looking really, really ropey. If that's not bad enough, the finances also...

confirmed that the club are a billion in debt if you include the debt that they owe the money owed to other clubs in transfer fees I mean it's gloomy the picture we we have been very frank about that on recent podcasts but to see it confirmed by the club makes it feel even worse doesn't it really the Glazers have made one billion off Manchester United since their ownership while the club goes into one billion in debt there are things in those financial figures that

can be sobering the 4.1 million to bring in Dan Ashworth before letting him go now looks like a costly misfire but 1 billion in debt Manchester United don't need a billionaire

I know there was a conversation about this or this or this, but Manchester United on their own back with such a huge fan base did not need the Glazers to buy them. It's been a disaster, 20 years of just the club going from the tippity-top footballing summit to a billion in debt. It's financial malpractice if you're not a member of the Glazer family, but also if you are or you're one of their accountants, this is good business, isn't it? The size of these numbers, Andy, as well,

It's created a moment for most of the Manchester United Supporters Trust that we spoke about a second ago to point out the potential ticket price increases that are coming and to ask the question of how much of a difference it's actually going to make when the numbers are so big for the debt.

They say price increases would make a trivial difference to the financial picture of United. They describe it as futile and counterproductive, citing the harming of fan sentiment and also the worsening mood at the club at the moment as well.

We don't know what the prices are going to be moving forward for United. Obviously, there's already been the controversy around the increase to £66 for a certain portion of tickets and getting rid of the concessions on those tickets as well, which has already caused a lot of ill feeling and anger amongst the fan base, understandably. What did you make of that part of the conversation?

Manchester United need to cut costs and increase revenue. I think that's pretty clear, whether you like Ratcliffe, Ineos, whatever, or not. But Musk's point is absolutely right. These figures, which would be realised from a small increase in ticket prices, are pretty small compared to some of the payoffs given to individual staff members. Mm-hmm.

Why should a working class person in the Stretford end be paying for the malpractice of others? It doesn't seem fair.

It isn't fair. And yet I get it that life's not fair sometimes. I get it that this is extreme capitalism that allowed the Glazers to do this because they could never have taken over Barcelona or Madrid, for example. It's not allowed. They're member-owned. You're not allowed to do it. Manchester United had no such protection. So United become victims from their own success, coupled with the fact that coming up against state-owned clubs, clubs with...

Russian oligarchs like Chelsea, and it just sped the decline up of Manchester United. I really felt when I spoke to Jim Ratcliffe that he listened to me when I pushed him on ticket prices. He did understand that you cannot price out working class football fans. I don't think he was being polite when I said this to him. Equally, I expect ticket prices to go up. I don't think it's been decided yet. I know there's been talks.

I know that the fan advisory board have had talks with him. There's some good people on there, really smart people on there. People who are doing it for nothing, by the way. They're getting a cup of tea in the travel expenses. Really smart, professional people who you want on your side, who are getting basically no thanks because ultimately it's what grade is the bad news going to be? Is it going to be a bit bad or is it going to be really bad? I've been fighting for ticket prices since 1992, since I've been a kid.

The minute that people are priced out of going, and some people have already been priced out of going. FC United exists because people were priced out under the glazes. My brother played for FC. I went to watch FC away games. I met people who couldn't afford to carry on going to Manchester United games. They exist. Manchester's a working class city, which was another point I put to Jim Ratcliffe.

I get that we've had a good run on tickets for 10 years, and we have. I get that 30 quid to sit behind the goal at Old Trafford in some seats is a good price, although is it when you're losing every week, when you're losing five out of your last six? Well, I think the point about harming fan sentiment and worsening the mood as well at the moment is crucial, isn't it? You need the fans. You do. You need the fans. Also, how does this get better if a price increase would harm...

harm fan sentiment even more than the results and that the picture at the club already has do they need to be careful about exactly what decision they take with this yeah because of that very reason they do they do and they should however this is 2025 and quite frankly if you listen to the senior night kingdom the running trend for the last however many months is you are now paying more money for a qualitatively worse service and that can be your public transport that can be

So many things in this country. I've got to retire somewhere else. I've got to do an Andy. But paying more dough for a worse experience is commonplace here. And yes, I totally believe Andy, when you talk to Sir Jim about ticket prices, that he looked at you and you felt that he was taking on what you were saying. However, Sir Jim Radcliffe doesn't stay a billionaire by listening to people like you.

That's the gross, nasty, hyper-capitalist facts of the matter. He's made an investment. He's made a deal. And you said on this podcast multiple times, he did the deal that he could. And maybe now he's looked all around and gone, oh, maybe this deal isn't good enough. I need to start doing things.

The Glazers historically made their money by financial real estate and rent of real estate. So they buy shopping malls in America and they just sit and just wait for the rental prices to increase, increase, increase, and just live off that revenue, which is what they've done to Manchester United. If you're Sir Jim Radcliffe, you buy underperforming bits of BP, flip it, and then you turn it into INEOS. They keep their capital by making unpopular decisions, but the unpopular decision very often fails.

If a billionaire comes up and tells you we're going to make some hard decisions, that very often means your wallet's going to take a hit, not theirs. And this is why when we ask questions like, who's going to pay for the stadium? The longer you don't get an answer, the answer is it's going to be you, eventually. You're totally right. But how old is he, 72? I genuinely think he cares about his legacy.

When he said to me how proud his parents would be that he was in this role at Manchester United... And he told you he grew up on a council estate and he wants to put the Manchester in Manchester United and he's made more than 350 people redundant. Why are you believing him? He's the richest man in the UK. If his legacy is going to be the man who made Manchester United even worse...

I don't know what he gets out of that. I don't know what he gets out of putting the 300 million. What's he getting? He's getting nothing but bad press at the moment. He had a little bit of a fair wind when he presented Bruno with the shirt for 250 appearances before the Leicester game. I remember commenting saying it's very rare for the decision maker to receive polite applause and he wouldn't get it now. The mood has totally changed against that.

So what does he get out of it? Kudos. What's the kudos? People coming up to you at Fulham having a go at you, abusing you. He will get kudos eventually. Right, think this is a 72-year-old man who is the richest person in the group. There is nothing he can't buy. He couldn't buy that suit you wore at the League Cup final, mate. That was special. There's no price on that.

Well, he can't buy fan sentiment at the moment. He can't buy fan sentiment. And he should care about fan sentiment. Yes. There is a price on it. Now, this is the tipping point. And this is why fan sentiment and what must they're doing and what the fan advisory board are doing is very, very important. Because he will care about public, loud, discreet moments. No, not even public, loud, and discreet. Public, loud, and continuous moments of dissent.

Because the longer Manchester United go on this weird rainy day, whatnot, the more people go, wait, is Sir Jim intelligent? Wait, are Ineos really, really smart? He cares about public perception. So therefore, if you are a ticket holder and you're not annoyed about this, it is up to you to start being annoying, disruptive. Are you not contradicting yourself? You're saying that he doesn't care, but now you're saying he does care about public perception. Billionaires don't care in the short term about unpopular decisions because they just go, well, people forget eventually.

So this is why you have to be annoying over a long, long, long, long, long, long period of time. And this is why the we want Glazers out chance and the various things directed at the Glazers from the Stratford end have been very, very good. And this is why Manchester United historically, when non-United fans go, oh, why are you complaining? Oh, you're getting your green and gold scarves out when you lose it. And the United fans go, no, actually look at the facts. Why have the chances been good? Because it's good. What have they changed? Oh,

The Glazers haven't listened to them and thought, we'll go away. No, this is the... So I protested when they tried to take over, like everybody did. I used to do some writing for people. I lost some work off the back of it because I was too close to the bone with the stuff that I wrote. I preferred INEOS to Qatar and a form of state ownership. I think a lot of people...

in my world, were of a similar opinion. But when push came to shove, the Qatar bid either couldn't or wouldn't show proof of funds. I think fans should absolutely be loud. I think fans should protest. I do think he cares about his legacy and public perception, like you said, and I think it would be incredibly damaging to that if you go and shit on your own doorstep. You cannot on one hand be saying...

pro-Manchester stuff, where you're from, and then become a reviled figure. Equally, he does have to make difficult decisions. I get that. I get looking at reading Critch's articles, speaking to people in the financial world. I wonder whether he's done a good deal or a dud deal.

I do think he wants Manchester United to be successful. Of course, yes. No question about that. And I think he will deliver in discreet moments and present tangible things. So when people do question his legacy, he'll go, hey, I did X. This is why the stadium is a really, really big thing. Because if he does deliver a stadium, regardless of who eventually pays for it, there will be a section of people in the football world that go, so Jim Radcliffe, the man who

either refurbished Old Trafford or built New Trafford and that will be his legacy and then we can all argue round and round and round and round and round about who paid for it in the same way that we argue about the Millennium Dome in the same way we argue about the Olympic Village I would put more of this onto the Glazers than I would than I would onto Ineos and Ratcliffe who at least they're putting their own money in

They'd like to put more in, but financial fair play rules prevent them from putting more in. We are seeing bricks on the ground and Carrington being redeveloped. I disagree with some of the decisions they've made. The Dan Ashworth thing just looks like a mess. Eric Ten Haag, there is a lot of hindsight Harrys now.

I remember the polls around the time when the decision was being made and Eric Ten Hag enjoyed very, very favourable rates of support. You might say, well, do not listen to fans. Don't listen to fans because they're charged by emotion. You're the ones who should be making the more difficult decisions. And they probably went with fan sentiment on Eric Ten Hag, combined with the fact that a couple of the people they wanted didn't want to come. I think it could get worse before it gets better.

I'm not saying Jim Ratcliffe is a panacea to Man United's problems, because I think we're actually going to have even more problems. I think the criticism against him is only going to increase. But what is your plan B? What alternatives are there? I'm going to have to step in here. You two could do a whole podcast on this. Maybe we should do a Talk of the Devils Extra on this, actually, listening to the pair of you. I don't think I've spoken for about 10 minutes because I was fascinated listening along.

On the subject of Talk The Devils Extra, thank you for the response that we've had this week to our first episode, which was on your podcast feeds on Wednesday. It was all about Manchester United's striker situation, the problems that the current players are having, the summer search that could be coming for United in that position. And we also heard from Louis Saha on that episode as well. If you've not listened to it, go back and have a listen. Let us know what you think. Devilspod at theathletic.com. Hashtag TOTDX.

on social media as well and obviously let us know what else you'd like us to talk about on Extra I've already got my idea for the next topic so yeah please get in touch and let us know and don't forget as well you can stay up to date on the club news with the Athletics Dedicated Manchester United WhatsApp channel I'm told there's enough people in there now to fill Old Trafford which feels like a little bit of a landmark but yeah go and check it out search for Manchester United on WhatsApp

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So, Carl, that conversation has meant we've overrun recording the podcast, so we're going to have to let you go. But thank you for your company. And Andy and I will now preview the trip to Goodison Park this weekend. Take care, lads. All the best. And, yeah, I'll see you next week, whatever happens. Whatever happens.

Saturday lunchtime, Everton versus Manchester United for one last time at Goodison Park. It just feels a shame to me, Andy. I know why clubs build new stadiums. Obviously, it's a hot topic with Manchester United at the moment as well, but I really love Goodison Park. I think there's a real primal sort of quality to it.

nestled in amongst the terraced houses of that area of Liverpool. The atmosphere when Goodison growls is a powerful thing for the football team. It can also be a pretty difficult thing for the home team to ride out at times as well when the home support is not really feeling like they want to support the team on a given day. But United have had some memorable days there down the years and let's hope for one last one. I mean, it's difficult to feel optimistic about it, but let's hope for one last one there this weekend.

Goodison's one of the great English football grounds. It's England's Wrigley Field. It's a historic sports venue.

It sits on this really irregular block close to the city centre. And you can see a map of the area around Goodison from 1900. It's almost unchanged. Dozens of these dense terrace streets pack around the church and the football ground on Goodison Road. And it was England's first major football ground. It was once seen as being too large. Now it's seen as being too small because the footprint's too small because they can't really get above 40,000.

United are going to go for the last time. Some great, great memories from United fans. Older fans will say the FA Cup semi-final replay in 79, Liverpool against Manchester United. Younger ones like me, you know, fresh ones like me. 1990, was it 91, when Lee Sharp scored a few days after a 6-2 win against Arsenal away. Mark Hughes, chance for Lee Sharp. It's his read.

Just remember thinking, Man United are getting good again. That was my first trip, I think, to Goodison. It was the only ground in the 80s, along with Old Trafford, where you could stand and sit on both sides. I've been so many times. People listening to this will have been so many times. Winning the league there in 2003.

I took a picture that day of a man called Coco, not my rabbit. Coco was a really well-respected figure in Manchester, within United's fan base, really well-respected, very well-known in Manchester, massive United fan. And Coco passed away a few years ago. And that picture I took seems to be the only one on record of Coco, or Gary as I'd call him. And it keeps surfacing all the time. And it's him in the main stand at Everton with the players celebrating a league title in the background.

Oh, for the days. Oh, yeah. We saw those days. Oh, for the days indeed. 0-4 was a great one when United came from, I think it was 2-0 down. No, that was 0-7. 2-0 down to win 4-2. Chris Eagles. Chris Eagles. And here's Eagles. He's got Ronaldo up with him. Eagles tries to steer it in and he's done that. Yes!

Just to emphasise, what a day this has been for Manchester United. How that man's legs did not give way just before he put the ball in the net, I still don't know. Watch him back. He almost falls over there, Chris Eagle. He's got a little excited, but he settled himself beautifully. There was a 4-3 at Everton. I think that was 0-4.

I think United were 3-0 up after half an hour. Louis Sahar recently on this podcast, Ruud van Nistelrooy, and then Everton got it back to 3-0 after 75 minutes. 89 minutes, van Nistelrooy put a Cristiano crossing to make it 4-3. His cross was unbelievable. You won't get a better cross now anywhere in the world. It wasn't all about his tricks and you don't see him 20 step over the top.

He makes one step over and puts the ball in, which is more effective. And I think he sees it now. Evan had a young substitute that day, a lad called Wayne Rooney, who had a chance to make it 4-0. Tarried away from Wayne Rooney. That really was a top stop by Roy Carroll.

He joined United a few months after. There was a really vicious, really difficult FA Cup, fifth round, 2005, a lot of trouble that day. And then I think a couple of months after that, Duncan Ferguson saw a very rare Everton win because United were so good there for years and years and years. And then the world changed. United went there at 14. David Moyes was manager. There was that grim reaper, wasn't there, in the main stand, the triple-decker.

and Everton won David Moyes lost his job April 19 4-0 to Everton I remember speaking to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer after that and he just said we've got to apologise to the fans we've let the club down They were better than us in all the basics we just didn't perform and that was not worthy of a Man United team and we're all the players in there know that we've got a big job to do and

We're going to do it. That's the thing, because this club has been down before and we've just got to pick ourselves up. It might not happen overnight, but it's going to happen. And that was an unusually angry Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. I'll miss Goodison, but their new stadium looks beautiful. It's on the banks of the River Mersey. They needed to move. They needed to grow.

credit for them to delivering it because there's plenty of stadium projects that have been mired and the Everton fans I speak to they're not slating David Moyes anymore for leaving them No there's no Grim Reapers in the home end now that's for sure I mean what do you think about the Weitemanns some fantastic memories there you know Wayne Rooney

Had some very interesting days at Goodison Park as a Manchester United player, kissing the badge after getting booked in 2008, I think it was. He got left out by Ferguson when there was a load of newspaper scandal around his private life. I remember that was one of the first press conferences I attended for Sir Alex Ferguson at the training ground and just being amazed at how he commanded this really difficult topic and protected it.

his most high-profile player at the time by leaving him out of a game, which, can you imagine if that happened now, there'd be even more of a worldwide interest in that sort of decision. What about this weekend then? United have actually won four of the last five at Goodison Park in all competitions. I mean, part of that was perhaps the greatest goal ever scored in the Premier League by Alejandro Garnaccio as well, another incredible Goodison Park memory. David Moyes has made a huge difference to them though, 13 points.

from a possible 15 and it will be another difficult game for United, there's no question. David Moyes said his priority was keeping Everton up. They're now above Manchester United in the table. I know the recent run has been good. I know that the victory at Old Trafford in December was just about the most impressive Manchester United result this season. Laurie called it a statement win. He gets gutted when I say that to him now. We thought we were going to surge up the table. Hasn't quite happened.

I want to be hopeful, but I just worry when I watch Manchester United at the moment. Everton are a surgeon. United fans will pack out that triple-tier away end in the Bullens Road with its lattice steelwork, the old Archibald Leitch stands. They've clad the exterior in royal blue, Mersey blue, with heroes of yore. And a few of them, Andrej Konczelskis, I think, is one of them.

I hope when we do the next podcast on Saturday, we're talking about a Manchester United win. The form in this calendar year, six wins, the problem is the league form, specifically the home league form. This isn't a home game. Come on, Manchester United, turn up. You've shown what you can do at Weverton this year.

But yeah, Moyes likes beating Manchester United because he still feels that there's unfinished business there. Just doesn't do it very often, do you, David? I hope you're listening. I'm going to message him to try and disrupt his... I don't reckon he listens to this, but... No. I need to sort of get in his head to affect the way that the game's played. I need to blag him and say, look, I shouldn't be telling you this, David, but Manchester United have got a young lad who they're going to play.

I just make something up. I don't know. It needs to be convincing and that doesn't sound convincing. No, it needs a bit of work maybe, mate, but we're going to leave it there on Talk of the Devils. Thank you, Andy, for your company. Thanks for lasting the distance and like the other two on this podcast. We'll be back after Everton, of course. Whatever happens, if you want to get in touch, devilspod.athletic.com. Go back and have a listen to our new style of podcast, Talk of the Devils.

extra from earlier on in the week. And also I need to remind you of the Connections Sport Edition, the new game for sports fans from The Athletic. It's a daily dose of trivia, very satisfying and very addictive, I'm told. So you can play now at theathletic.com forward slash connections. But thank you for your company. Thanks for listening. And I'll speak to you soon. We all will. Take care. Thanks for listening. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.