Wasteful United edged out at Spurs
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up, we'll talk about Ahmad's injury, which is a major setback to Manchester United's misfiring attack. It was an almost all-academy player bench at Spurs with Meynou, Agata, Joro also absent. And that defeat in North London to Tottenham is the 12th of this Premier League season. The last time Manchester United lost as many at this stage was 1973. And I won't tell you how that season ended because it wasn't good.

Anyway, before we intro the lads, we'd like to introduce you to something quite exciting actually. Well, we're excited anyway. Talk of the Devils Extra. Twice a month we'll be doing a feature podcast to add to the usual episodes we do around matches already. And the idea is to go deeper into the most important topics facing the club and answer more of your questions. This Wednesday we're going to kick off by looking at perhaps the biggest issue at the moment. And that's the summer search for a striker.

after Laurie's article on The Athletic last week. We'll also assess the current options in attack and hear from a former United number nine. We want to hear from you as well. Who would you like to see leading the line at Old Trafford next season? Get in touch, devilspod at theathletic.com. You can also contact us on socials and look out for that show in your podcast app on Wednesday morning.

So Carl's with us, Andy's with us, Laurie's with us. And Laurie, it's the perfect time to be adding an extra podcast, isn't it? After watching that glorious display at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. There's just so much to get into. And I, for one, want more of your time as well. I am definitely not tired of seeing your faces and speaking to you about Manchester United. So yeah, bring us some more extra time, baby. Now, now, salty.

But goal scoring is a topic we'll talk about on this podcast, Carl, as well, isn't it? Because it was yet another match where United's attack stuttered. Stuttered, staccato, misfiring.

lugubrious however you want to call it that was dismal blimey that was dismal in front of goal there's only two reasons why I'm not going to be effing and blinding on this podcast one of them is because it's late on Sunday night I want to shorten producer Ollie's time turning it around another one is honestly these lot don't deserve my anger it's hard to summon anger to be honest I don't know what the emotion is really

It's reached that stage, hasn't it? Yeah. It's pretty grim and we keep saying the same thing. It's Groundhog Day, more defeats. I am a bit surprised because Tottenham are terrible. I know they had a couple of players back and James Madison scored the only goal of the game. That's Manchester United fan James Madison as well.

But they've now beaten United three times this season. This is the worst Tottenham team for years. This is one where the fans were protesting before the game with a flag saying 24 years, one trophy, 16 managers. When you sort of think back, Manchester United have absolutely blitzed them in the last 10 years, the ones we've been moaning about for trophies. But Ipswich won at Tottenham, Leicester won at Tottenham, Manchester United lost at Tottenham again, 15th.

Failed to score again. Same old with the strikers. There's loads for us to talk about. Unfortunately, a lot of it is negative. Yeah, it is. Before we get into the details of the 90 minutes on Sunday, Laurie, obviously it was a pretty disastrous week for

building up to this game for Manchester United on the training pitch and it only really started to transpire quite late on after Ruben Amarin's press conference exactly what had happened didn't it? Yeah I mean he gave us a decent hint didn't he in the press conference because for a manager to be so upfront about the problems that he's suffering from usually they try and keep it under wraps don't they but clearly he wanted that message out there to perhaps just let the

Why do you think he didn't just spell it out? I think it's probably not his personality.

place is it to sort of you know absolutely say what's happened I mean maybe he could have just told people listen we think Ahmad's out for the season yeah maybe he could have done that maybe you want a little bit of mystery up until the game so that the opposition aren't able to totally plan that being said I'm sure they would have figured it out they've got their own means of finding out this information and then once it became apparent you know Chris Wheeler broke the story Daily Mail really great scoop um

And I don't think United, I think they knew they couldn't contain it at that point, obviously. So, I mean, I thought I'd done pretty well with the story before that with Mainu, Koleo and Ugarte being out for the game and Mainu a little bit longer. But yeah, I kind of missed the big one, right? Ahmad was the one that people cared about and that obviously just

you know deflates the mood because he has been the player not only statistically but also kind of emotionally that has kept the hope alive this season you know I mean he's 43% he's contributed to Manchester United's goals in the Premier League this season so six goals and six assists that sort of puts

puts him alongside the likes of Cole Palmer at Chelsea, Ollie Watkins at Aston Villa, Erling Haaland at Man City for importance to their team. And so you take him out, Bruno's their next best with 11, and then the next person on that list, Marcus Rashford with five, four goals and one assist. So you get into pretty bleak territory. So for the fact that United didn't score at Tottenham Hotspur shouldn't really be a surprise in that.

albeit we can still be massively deflated and annoyed about it. I mean, it's the 10th time in the Premier League this season out of 25 games that they haven't scored. That is atrocious.

I sort of touched on it in a piece that I wrote on Saturday night about the impact of Ahmad and okay really this season is about avoiding relegation we're there in that sort of point again and maybe I'm being hyperbolic again because it's 12 points to Ipswich and in reality it'll be one win two wins you know 30 odd points is absolutely fine but it feels like that's now the limit of the expectation certainly in the Premier League you know you kind of had had hopes that

Europa League or FA Cup might bring some enjoyment and obviously massive bonus of Champions League qualification with

with the Europa League but that now feels just very remote because they're going to be found out in games because they haven't got this kind of goal making potential in Ahmad and yeah as we saw they actually created quite a few chances at Tottenham Hotspur I kind of enjoyed in a way what they were doing in the second half they were in front of us and it's one of those games where you're there in the flesh you're raised eyebrow I can see it you're there in the flesh I'm going back to Man City v United at Old Trafford and

but they were doing so I could see why Ruben Amrim was saying I didn't feel like it was the right moment to then go and try some of the academy kids I mean he eventually put Chido on he could have come on early he should have come on early I think just in that hope of getting a goal but I could see what he meant by

the momentum was with United in that second half. Yeah, it was in terms of chances created definitely and they could and should have taken at least one of the opportunities that they carved out. But this is a front line that's just badly out of form, badly short of confidence as well. Like I've teased already, we'll go into that on Talk of the Devils Extra this week as well and look at just how

big the issues are for this Manchester United front line at the moment. But Andy, just in terms of the hope for this season really, United are now 15th. Everton, with their resurgence under David Moyes, have now skipped ahead of Manchester United. They're eight points shy of the top half. Week by week, this is getting worse and worse and worse and worse. Like Laurie said, they're not going to get relegated, but for United to be anything like this...

It is thoroughly depressing, isn't it? It is. And apart from being thoroughly uneasy on the eye, there is a financial aspect of every position you finish in the Premier League, every one you go up, it's worth over £3 million. So if you look at the cuts Manchester United are making to the bottom line, and more of them are going to be announced pretty imminently,

It's really important that United finish as high up the table as possible. I know that's common sense, but by going up another 10 points, that's over £30 million more. It's a huge amount of money.

And talking about Manchester United being in 15th, I mean, this is unheard of for 30, 35 years. You said before, it's not been this bad since the relegation season. The form of the Ruben Amorim is definitely relegation form. There does look like there's a gap there. It's the first time Spurs have beaten us

home and away since 89-90. So, so many of these stats go back to 1989 because that's when Manchester United were last this terrible. And I just look, I was thinking today, what on earth must Bruno Fernandes think? Because I actually really rate him as a player and I know he divides opinion. I think he could get in some of the best teams in the world. And he must be thinking, what on hell am I doing playing in this team who...

they're just dreadful it's the worst team I've seen for Manchester United in terms of the results but quite often in terms of the performances as well I've still not got over that first half at Leicester a few weeks ago it was so bad that Tottenham was significantly better today and Manchester United lost the match yeah the thing was in isolation today certainly in terms of chances created in the second half it didn't feel like Manchester United were that bad it's the fact that you're adding it on to what you'd already seen in recent weeks that makes it feel worse and

You talked about that first half against Leicester, but you could add so many more performances. We were clinging on a little bit, weren't we, to the six wins out of eight record that United had coming into this game. But in terms of the Premier League form, it's miserable since Ruben Amirim arrived, really.

And obviously it wasn't great before that. So, I mean, Laurie, in terms of hope for what's coming next, the other injuries, Mainu, Ugarte, Joro, Eriksen, when are any of these going to be back? Well, I mean, Joro and Eriksen are illness, so you hope that's a fairly...

solution. Kobi Meunier I think he's going to be a few weeks potentially sort of four, six maybe as many as eight it depends. Ahmad obviously out for the season Amarin's making no bones about that now not even a kind of question it seems like. Ugarte and Collier I think they're small

smaller injuries so you hope that they're back sooner and then Mason Mount and Luke Shaw I think they're supposed to be back soonish but again we've had that before with them so yeah let's wait and see wait and see brilliant eh the bench was interesting wasn't it I think a lot of Manchester United fans will feel the same as you Laurie that

that there could have been minutes earlier for at least Chido Obi if not some of the others Carl what did you think? I think well the average age of the bench was 19.3 and a lot of that was tipped over because Victor Lindelof the 30 year old was dragging it all up the odd man out did you see the senior appearances stat? yes 382 senior appearances on the bench and Victor Lindelof had 381 of them the other one was 10 minutes for Aiden Heaven for Arsenal wow you wonder what they're all talking about on the bench erm

girls, video games, anything but the football that they're watching in front of them, I imagine. When I saw that bench, I didn't think Amram would make many substitutions unless the game state allowed him to. I know there was a lot of conversation going, oh, you know, we might lose today, but at least Amram will give the kids a go. And I was going, he's not. He doesn't strike me as that sort of manager. He's not Louis van Gaal, who...

felt some kind of way about giving as many starts to academy graduates as possible. Not necessarily even Jose Mourinho, where he thinks if one of these academy graduates is

particularly tall or strong, you give it a go. Ameren very much wants to... He doesn't necessarily want to throw any of these academy players into the cauldron unless he absolutely positively has to do it. He wants to protect them, I guess, Carl, doesn't he? Now, if a United fan very much believes in the strength of the academy and believes that Carrington will carry United through, then...

Not playing more of those players, even if you are losing, can be annoying. I saw one or two United fans say that's a bit cowardly to not give the kids a go because United is all about courage and being brave and giving young players a chance. But Amrin, in his knowledge, decided this was not a situation to give any of these youngsters a go. It's a tricky one. Laurie's right. The second half, United did have a bit more momentum for certain phases. It's really hard to throw in... I mean, they're senior professionals now.

who aren't that good coming off the bench for Manchester United, let alone players who've never made a senior team appearance with this club. Laurie, you were in the stadium. Any of those teenagers look frustrated on the bench and going, coach put me in? Well, some of them, I saw Chido warming up on his own. I was like, has he just gone out to warm up because he's like,

pick me, pick me. But actually, I think he had been told to go out. It was a few minutes before, well, a minute before he was then, you know, due to come on. And Amberyn actually, you know, was kind of hurrying him up when he kind of called him back and, you know, was telling him get ready quicker. Could he have given him more than just stoppage time considering he was going to bring him on? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because Casemiro was on a booking for...

what was it the whole second half and that was the change that he made he put Xerxe kind of right back to kind of the number six role which was I mean even further away from being the number nine you know Amarant told us again that he's not a number nine so you're sort of getting deeper and deeper I'm kind of waiting for him to be this kind of sweeper at the back you know in time and building the base yeah

I mean, Xerxes, just on a quick point on him, he was pretty good, right? With the ball control and kind of linking play better. And I don't know, maybe there's something there. But yeah, Chido, I thought, could have come on earlier because to Amarin's point afterwards, he said he's the guy that with loose ball in the box, you know, could just finish it. You know, he's kind of not always the crispest of finisher, but he kind of is in the right place. He seems to just get the ball in where you need it to be. A bit like,

I mean, Solskjaer was a crisp finisher as well, but he just had that knack, right, of scoring goals. You also need to get lucky in that scenario and only having three minutes of stoppage time to be able to get lucky is not really long enough, is it? You've got to pop onto the ball in the edge of the box. You actually have to get the ball into the box more than twice a half, which is another one of the United problems. I thought they were doing that. Because you look at Garnaccio, Hoyland, they all had shots in moments where...

And there was a couple of moments at set pieces where the ball could have fallen and that's where he's saying if Chido had been on, but then you didn't give him that amount of time. The rest of the bench, they're in the squad because of all these injuries, right? They're not yet ready. Sekou Kone, Travis Binion, the under-21 coach, was saying about how he needs to physically develop at that level. So to say, OK, we're going to throw him into a Premier League game

ferocious pace when United are losing as Carl's right there the game state I think affected it if they're 3-0 up I'm sure he gives a couple of kids a go but it's not like they had a load of attacking options on the bench Jack Fletcher is like a number 10 he's a very talented player very technical but I don't know would he have gone on and then made that

impact, that's what he needed from somebody. So I think Chido was the only real option as an academy player there. Well, the thing is, Chido Obi coming on, he became the third youngest ever Premier League player for Manchester United, 17 years, 79 days behind only Angel Gomez, who was 16, 263 days and Shola Shuritiri at 17 years and 19 days. And obviously Gomez and Shuritiri, Andy, were given a

in very different circumstances. Gomez was the last game of the season from memory, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. I remember Ole Gunnar Solskjaer giving him that saying, I think it was at Wolves Away, saying that he'd risk playing the younger players because he thought it was important that young players experienced... Wasn't Adrian Gomez Jose Mourinho?

Gomez is having Mourinho. What was the Wolves game at the end of the season? Am I played in that one? Yeah, yeah. Charlotte Tiret is the end of 2021.

I think Shobha Teh played in that one, yeah. Angel's done very well and when I spoke to Shola a few months ago, he's gone to Greece to sort of try and get his career going and he's doing well too but now they've established themselves at Manchester United. I think there are a lot of hopes for Chido Obi at the moment but he is still very, very young and

Manchester United's youth system is a strong one. I just don't think players will be rushed in. But I'm watching that today thinking, just get him on because it's just desperate. It's just desperation. Give us something to cling to. Give us something to hope. And he is a goal scorer. He's a professional footballer. Yeah, and the thing is, you know...

All right, this circumstance is different with the league position like we've talked about, but Makeda's debut came amongst a little bit of chaos, didn't it, Laurie? That change ended up obviously with that incredible moment against Aston Villa. Marcus Rashford playing against Michelin, he was nowhere near contention for the first team when the circumstances of injuries and so on meant that he ended up coming into the first team. And sometimes these lads can surprise you, but...

I do understand that he is trying to protect them as well. That's the other side because you don't want to overexpose them early because this is not an easy circumstance to play football in at all. And we've definitely had that, haven't we? Accusations of managers throwing players into very hard situations and then they've not...

been able to show their fullest self and also you know i think certainly managers in the past have perhaps given academy players a go because then it's their name against their debut and if they're going to do something brilliant then they're kind of associated with them forever well didn't marino start listing them in his first press conference it's like you don't play young players well actually i do and here's a list and then name some that he'd given like two minutes to or something yep and some 20 odd year olds as well um

I think maybe Jack Morehouse, I've only seen him a little bit, but he's a strong ball-carrying midfielder. So maybe in this particular game, for 10-15 minutes, he could have made a difference. But who do you take off? Because he's

Is he going to take off Hoyland? I mean, how embarrassing is that for him? And I'm not saying that you should just protect somebody's sensibilities, but, you know, he was, he did have a couple of shots and he has scored at this level. Xerxe was kind of actually in his groove a bit. And again, it's a low bar, right? I'm not saying that this is anything to get excited about, but I'm not sure exactly who he could have taken off. Casemiro was the obvious one. Maybe you could have taken him off earlier. Maybe you take off a defender as well, I suppose. And then, you know, you kind of, you know, all hands to the pump and,

But he doesn't want to change his system, right? He kind of keeps it predominantly free centre-backs and wing-backs and, you know, OK, maybe you can then get more men in box at different moments. But they didn't feel like an obvious switch to make to get that goal when that was the

desire of the team at that moment. I think it's not only just who does he take off but it's also who looks after these players. Yeah good point. Okay. Very good point. If you are of a certain age you may remember super young Johnny Evans being played at centre back when there was a defensive emergency and Vidic was there to help him through those games to

show him the ropes as things were going on and kick balls out of play and eventually when Johnny Evans became closer to the elder statesman he was showing the younger player through the ropes and whatnot and that's traditionally how you do it if you are going to play an 18 year old in your midfield or in your defense you have someone towards their 30s going this is how you do it now the thing about playing a very impressive midfielder be it Kone be it Morehouse is that your 30 year old who's supposed to

hold your hand and walk you through that performance is also someone who cannot do it anymore to the top level. The 30-year-olds in this Manchester United squad are struggling. The older players in this team are really struggling and they're either going through a physical decline or they're overwhelmed with the amount of extra jobs they have because other players can't do it. They do not have time to babysit.

call me intern call me youngster call me novice call me greenhorn whatever you do it a greenhorn i don't know that one before that's a greenhorn is a more of an american sense sorry we're an international podcast carl give me this is it um however you want to do it imagine being an 18 year old football player coming to central midfield and you are next to casimiro but you're next to this version of casimiro not the casimiro from 2022

I think, yeah, if you had two or three very impressive midfielders coming off the bench, Casemiro from 2022, 2021 would absolutely go, this is how you play it, don't worry. Casemiro from the League Cup final telling Marcel Subitza, don't worry, you can push up, I got this. But the Casemiro who stood there as Bergwijn just skipped past him, shifted the ball out wide, then cut back inside and

and he's just struggling to spin and keep his head on the swivel. It's hard. It's hard. He hasn't played any Premier League football for six weeks, Casemiro. He has not. It's his first start in 2025. This bench will contain a number of football players who I'm sure will have a role to play in Manchester United at some point between now and whenever. But...

Putting your hopes in them now is ill-advised. Carrington's going to be really, really important in the next couple of seasons because it doesn't sound like the club has too much money to go out and buy superstar players. So they're going to have to build them. But also sometimes the best way to build some of these great young players is to not throw them in in a chaotic, weird game of football against top of the hotspur. So if you win, you can finish 12th.

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Any other positivity, Andy? We're good in cups. Cup games. I'm talking about tonight, ideally. What about Andy Patrick-Dogu? He can play left, I've heard. Someone told me that. I thought Xerxe...

possibly Manchester United's brightest point. Bright points, I'm really struggling, I'm sorry, I think it's a pretty glum time. These are unprecedented in the last 30 years that we're now talking about a team who are 15th

And with little sign that it's getting better. No, it's getting worse. It is unequivocally getting worse. Yeah, yeah. Someone sent me a stat before that Ruben Amorim has already lost more games than Ralph Rangnick, nine against eight. And Ralph Rangnick was in charge for eight more games. And I can remember when we were talking about the Rangnick period and that was horrendous as well. Was it Ralph Rangnick that sent you the stat, Andy? Yeah, it was a number from... Someone close.

An Austrian dialing tone. Yeah, Austrian number. It was actually. Double R. Yeah, I didn't think who it was. Thought it was Rolls-Royce again. Yes, my latest sponsorship deal. Thank you. Yeah.

Great, isn't it? But yeah, Dogu was decent, Kyle, on that side. Who knew? He was decent. I would really have liked it more if Alejandro Garnaccio actually spotted one of his overlapping runs. He's just not used to looking outside, I don't think. He's used to wing-backs who stay back and keep a back-five shape. I think that might have been it. Dogu made a lot of off-ball runs for Garnaccio that Garnaccio perhaps went, thank you for distracting the defender. I'm now going to continue to cut inside and shoot.

But this is the balancing act, right? This is Garnaccio in his third season proper. He's got 13 Premier League goals to his name and yet he's the top scorer in the Premier League out of all United's current strikers. Yeah. And he's not scored for 18 games. He's not scored in 18 games, but United need to turn to him and United need him to...

Often he's the one who's generating the shots because he's the one who's best at attacking space. Not scored in the Premier League under Ruben Amorim. He should have scored today, shouldn't he? Amorim wheeled away so angered. He should have scored. The XG on that shot isn't too high, but the eye test will tell you you put that away. You have time, space, awareness to use your favoured finish and to put it that high, that wide is...

It's the mark of someone who hasn't scored in 18 games, right? Well, it's divided confidence. He's not the only one. They all are. You watch the way that they play. for you to miss chances like that. And that's the real problem in that when you're in a team that generates so few chances, there is often the compulsion to...

hit those chances as hard as possible to try and make sure you're authoritative. And that was the time where he actually had time to roll it out from underneath his feet and get it there. Laurie, you're in the stadium. You said Amron, what, span away in frustration? Yeah, yeah. And he was asked about it afterwards, actually, sort of what goes through your mind in that moment. He's like, yeah, you're frustrated. You want them to score. But then a split second later, I'm back out coaching the team, trying to help them win. And he was, you know, but he obviously wears his heart on his sleeve, doesn't he? But yeah, I think everybody there was like,

ouch, that should have been in the back of the net. Yeah, and it wasn't the only moment in the game either, was it? Again, we will talk about Manchester United's problems in attack on Talk The Devils Extra on Wednesday. Let's change tact. Let's talk about the new Chief Business Officer of Manchester United, Mark Armstrong. And Andy has prepared...

an extensive explainer on what this new man is going to do what's his job then andy newshound andy i might add by the way exclusive mitten content listeners andy has been doing most of this podcast with his reading glasses on and now he's been called to do he's taking them off he's about to get into this oh go on then andy what's his job bring money in basically oh how

Get on the phone. Ring people up. Cold call. I used to do that. Angling home improvements. Hello, it's Manchester United here. Can I interest you in sponsorship for the 15th best team in England? We've got a variety of packages. We've got £600 for an advertising order and you can have your company's name at the next defeat at Old Trafford going right up to £25 million for a kit sponsorship.

That's what he's got to do. And you get loads and loads of them in. He's been ringing like Cockneys and Americans where all the money is. You get these Cockneys going, I'll have a bit of that, son. Bring them loads in, Manchester United will be wedged again. And he's obviously done it well at PSG, in the NBA as well, that basketball thing. And yeah, he starts very, very soon. So let the dough roll in.

What's just happened? Andy's brought a bit of cheer to this podcast. Yeah, a little bit of levity required. This is a job role that we know United have been on the lookout for since at least the close of the summer window.

What, the joker that Andy's just played? Are you talking about chief business officer? Chief business officer. Oh, sorry, okay. We're looking for another jester. This is a role that has been scouted, touted for a while. And yeah, clues in the night. They're not going to have too much input onto the footballing side of things. This is very much about sponsorships. So you are drumming up interest in Manchester United, getting Manchester United to all sorts of places in the world and all sorts of untapped places.

business streams. So

I would not be surprised if you start seeing Manchester United talented in digital spaces or Manchester United being brought to India more or Nigeria more where there are more fans and they'll probably look to try and find a way to mobilise and monetise that fan base as well. They need to win a few more matches though, don't they? Just to try and entice those people possibly. Winning football games is always the best way to raise money. I was going to say, the thing is they've been doing that for a while, the commercial team, right? I mean, United's...

you know for whatever you might think of the Glazers and certainly the idea that United might actually link up with some a smaller number of prestige companies shall we say was the original thought that pre-Glazers and then they came in and said let's just associate ourselves with all these kind of brands across the world but anyone yeah anyone would do noodle partners tire companies mattress partners regional noodle partners yeah that was the one that was that was their big idea right you break it up into regions right and then clubs copied them but United did pretty well out of that but

Shajim Ratcliffe has come in and he's

totally adjusted the I think he wants to adjust anyway the amount of spend that's done by the commercial team on getting these deals over the line people would say it was excessive some of the kind of spending that was going on to get the sponsors to sign on the dotted line so there's been a lot of change in that department there's been some questions about whether that's the right thing to do but clearly Ratcliffe has got his own mind on what he wants to happen and Mark Armstrong is an appointment to that end so yeah but it's going to be a huge aspect of United's you know

fortune going forward because they need money. They need to have these sponsors coming in and there's going to be, you know, deals expiring, you know, the trading ground, the shirt sponsor, stuff like that. You know, there's issues that are going to be coming to a head. So yeah, he's got a big job on. There's a few vacant slots and this is just common sense. Companies want to align themselves with successful global brands and Manchester United are global, but they're not as successful anymore. And there's...

One of the three biggest clubs in the world, but so far off it, not just domestically, but in European competition now. It's probably similar to a role Richard Arnold had under Edward Wood. And United did some really significant deals. I remember that Chevrolet one coming in thinking, how on earth have they pulled that one off? It was huge at the time. So were the Chevrolet shareholders. Yeah. They were like, what's happened here? But that wasn't Manchester United's problem for doing a really good deal there.

United has become a harder sell and revenues are needed and good luck to him in the job. I think Mark, he will sit underneath Omar Barada who is also more focused on football. I think you're seeing an overlap now because Dan Ashworth's not on the football side of it. You've got Colette Roach working more on the football side of it. You've got Jason Wilcox as well.

And I think Mark Armstrong will be purely commercial. Get the dough in, get on the phone and do like I just said. I'm sure it'll be exactly like that. I'm sure on his first morning in office. It sounded like you were reading off the Man United script there, Andy. It's almost like he writes for a living, isn't it?

Let's see how he does. Yeah, we spoke extensively about Manchester United's financial situation on the last podcast. So if you want to go back and have a listen to that, Critch joined us to bring some of the numbers to the conversation as well. We had a very good response to that from you guys listening along as well. So thank you very much.

for that as always just to give you a flavour of what people were saying so Dougal said just listen to Thursday's podcast I think you're letting Jim Radcliffe off way too lightly at least 18 of the 20 Premier League clubs make huge losses I think Ineos is hiding behind the glazers to push through redundancies and ticket price increases announcing that the losses are not sustainable is a great way to get fans to accept price rises there was Paul I'm sorry to be negative but I cannot see a fit

until the Glazers are gone for good, maybe when they get their $10 billion. And also then Gerrard, who got in touch with a very detailed and perhaps harrowing summary of the situation at the club at the moment. He then said, I don't know if I should laugh or cry, but he did send us a rather nice picture of him with his children smiling, saying they're in it for the long haul and there's no bandwagons here. So thank you for depressing us a little bit more with the summary, Gerrard. But

cheering us up a little bit with the picture. No matter which way you look at this, Laurie, there is not any or much good news for Manchester United, is it? And the whole sort of atmosphere around this season and the end to this season is going to be extremely interesting to witness because if things don't improve on the pitch, the mood is only going to get worse off it and further developments off the pitch, further developments on the pitch are

it could go one way or the other this couldn't it well yeah if it continues like this and then the Europa League becomes not a possibility and the FA Cup they get knocked out of that then the mood will just evaporate won't it because what is there left to play for I think the mood's already gone I don't even know what the right

term for it is but it's already reached new depths and it could go even lower right yeah I think we're gonna experience because United are on the road at the moment we haven't yet heard the immediate visceral response from the ultra effort crowd I think that will be telling when that game against Fulham arrives when that game against Arsenal arrives if results continue to go the way they're going and

whether or not fans direct their ire at the Glazers, at Sir Jim, at Amarin, or indeed at all of them. But I think that will be interesting. I think Amar will be safe, won't he? He usually manages even when they've been really responsible for things. I'm not sure, Laurie. I think the mood's turning against him. In the stands? Yeah, I just don't think you can lose every game. Yeah.

I remember very clearly the start of last season when Ten Hag took off Hoyland to bring on Martial and that decision got booed. And you can see almost two or three people on the coaching bench going, hang on, what? They're booing us. And I feel as if there is a great understanding from the United fan base that Amarin has been dealt a really bad hand. However, and I've said this before about Ten Hag, that's not an excuse to play your hand badly.

And I think two or three decisions. We had emails with people who were wound up about Dorku on the right. Some of them from a small schmanker. We are going to get in emails, I believe, in tomorrow morning about people who were annoyed that Amarin didn't play any of the academy players. There are certain things you can do as a football manager, but there are certain things that Manchester United fans want you to do because you are a Manchester United football manager.

If you keep doing those small, tiny little errors in perception, you might get some of the fan base on your back. And I'm interested to see how he's going to be received when we go back to Old Trafford. Because you can feel it. I can feel the mood turning. So when we get back to Old Trafford, when we get back to Old Trafford, it's against Ipswich Town. Now to lose that one...

That would be very different to losing at home to a team who are at the top of the table. I think as we speak now, most Manchester United fans are with the manager. As you say, he's been dealt a rough hand recently.

But this is relegation form and it's not unconditional, the support for him. If the team go down and we're sat here in a year's time and we're 16th in the championship and we've got a manager talking fantastically well, he's not going to be getting support. I think at the moment, it's not unusual for fans to be singing his name. But I am starting to get people who I respect coming to me going...

questioning the manager basically in the same way that if the team were winning they would be praising the manager and I think the manager would accept that as well that just it is a results business but the worrying thing is the football's not even any good you can't really come out and say there's been a big improvement because individually this play has improved or that play has improved because there just isn't that much evidence I think people's frustration is the fact that this system that he wants to play which you know we're more than willing to get behind it

it doesn't feel like it's becoming clearer. It doesn't feel like the players are understanding it more. 20 games in, aren't we? 20 games in now. And there's been clear weeks now. And I take it that, you know, last week with all the injuries, it would have been a very complicated week. But still, it doesn't feel like there's progress there, does the lorry?

Well, the point I'm disagreeing with Andy and Carl on is that you're talking about the reaction in the stadium and they were singing his name the whole of the last game, you know, the Stretford end, basically. So I'm saying that I don't think he will get criticised. I think the ire will be directed at the ownership and that's going to be really interesting. Yeah.

Glazers but then the new ownership you know Ratcliffe I think that'll be where their anger goes because ultimately they've then appointed Amarin as well by the way so I'm not saying and I totally respect what you're saying there I have my own doubts about Amarin I think everyone would have to like at this point you know I think even he's kind of accepting that right which I you know you kind of like that in a guy he's pretty

humble in that kind of way but at the same time you want a manager there's the point where you need a manager to be like I know I'm going to be a success here managers have said that before at United and they haven't been so what really value is that I suppose but I just mean I don't think he's not going to get booed in the stadium he's not going to get chants against him in the stadium they just won't go like that with him whatever happens I don't think but

I do think that as the weeks go on it'll be really fascinating to see how much anger is then generated at the people in charge.

The moderates want to support the Manchester United manager for as long as possible. And Amrin is still a confident, charismatic person in these press conferences. You ask him a question, he gives you an honest answer. Sometimes to his own detriment. This week will hurt especially because, I mean, even on Monday's podcast, we were talking about no midweek game. Do you think United are going to be better? Because there's extra training time. And then pretty much everything has gone to pot. And United have lost in pretty meek circumstances.

I do think the mood is pretty low. I do think the mood can get worse. I am expecting frustration and anger and noise in the coming days. And I think there will be dark clouds when we next go back to Old Trafford. We're definitely going to hear anti-glazer chants. We're probably going to hear some things directed towards Sir Jim. I do think between now and that Ipswich game, Amring could be doing things to make sure that

When those boos do start, they're not at him. That there is just a greater understanding that Amarin is doing everything in his power to maximize what he can do. Because at the moment, he's had two or three games, or two or three decisions recently, where the...

not moderates, shall we say, are going, I don't understand why you're doing this. I am beginning to lose some faith in you. There's a couple of things work in his favour. A lack of appetite for yet another managerial change. It would just be ridiculous. Who could come in and change it? Because they're not his players. He didn't want to come in mid-season, by the way. He wanted to stay at Sporting. I do genuinely think he's talented. He's got this very clear idea. I think most of the players are having him as well, but

These are clearly difficult times. So what are the trigger points for protest? If there's an announcement over tickets, that's potentially one. Jobs. Fans are very sympathetic to staff who lose their jobs, but it doesn't affect them as intrinsically as, right, your season ticket is going up from X to Y. Combine that with a home defeat against Ipswich, for example, where

And you'll see more despondency. But then the mood's really low now. I'm seeing people saying, just get this season out of the way. But there is still the flicker of light from the cup competitions. And that is genuine because if you support Tottenham, you've gone out of two cups in the last couple of weeks. Although...

Manchester United could play Tottenham for a fourth time this season. In Bilbao, yeah. In Bilbao. I would love to get to Bilbao. I just can't see this team being good enough to get there. That's why Ahmad's injury was so galling, wasn't it? Because not only is he the brightest thing in the team at the moment, but

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Laurie, Adam Crafton, one of our colleagues from The Athletic, posted on social media, many people were saying when Amarant came in, us included, that you may basically have to write off this season to come through the teething pains and get the system ready for next season. But the truth is, many people cannot bear the reality of that. Well, this is the big conflict, I think, internally for every United fan, where...

You've got a new guy here who has won things in sporting, has achieved above what the expectation was. Now, people might say that's easiest to do there. This is the Premier League, it's different. But you've got a situation where he's had no chance

in the market to make the squad what it's supposed to be, apart from Dorgu, who, you know, he's played two games, looked quite promising. On the left. Yeah, on the left. But the question for everybody is, is he actually the guy? You don't know that for sure. So that's why you're like, you know, why are we even going down this route if we don't know for sure? But that's the kind of, the...

I don't know, the dynamic at the heart of this whole thing, because maybe he is the guy and you really do need to go through this pain and then it will be OK. You know, Sir Alex Ferguson, there's obviously doubts about him. In five years, it was. And I know it's different times. I know that, you know, it

It was a totally altered club that he entered and he proved to be the greatest manager of all time. Taking on the culture though, that's what Ferguson did and Amorin's sort of doing the same, maybe not quite as dramatically, but there are similarities. And did people know at the time? People tried to get rid of Alex Ferguson at that point. Most people did. Most people did and they very conveniently forget that.

They wanted him out. And I'm not saying that Amorin is the guy, but that's the question, right? That's why there's this doubt and conflict. You're totally correct. You're totally correct. We get, if you look at the devil's inbox, we are constantly being asked, loads of questions are, we spent X amount of money on Eric Ten Hag, getting Eric Ten Hag's players. Then we've got in Amorin and Amorin wants to play 3-4-3. Is it correct to do this? And then we'll be saddled with a bunch of players who only want to play 3-4-3 and won't be able to adapt to everything else.

which is one of those secret questions of, I'm not sure Amarin's the guy, but we need to make sure the squad doesn't waste money in the same way that Ten Hag did. There is no answer to that until we see what Amarin's team looks like, or until we see some Amarin's players arrive. We are looking at a football team, a football club, that has had...

very little consistency and commitment to a plan for a long time. And Amarin's come in and gone, this is the plan. It's 3-4-3. It's going to do this. It's going to do this. It's going to do this. And yeah, I can't guarantee this is going to work. But unfortunately, we're going to have to wait quite a bit of time to see if Amarin's plan is any good. And holding your nerve and not pranging out and not trying to cheat the system and trying to shortcut it

is how you're going to get out of this. Because there have been two or three times on the two or three previous managers when United have got a competent working structure, have got a really good working culture, and then they had an opportunity to stay in the top four or try and cheat things and become a title winning team. And they went, let's go out and get...

Cristiano Ronaldo and completely blew things up. Like you have to, you have, you've got a plan now. I don't know if this plan is any good, but you have to stick to this plan for a bit longer than just 20 games. And I know it's really hard. And I know no one wants to lose every single week.

But if you're not prepared to suffer, and I mean properly, stink for ages, you might stink for a bit longer than you previously anticipated. But Adam Crafton is right. Fans do want the cake and want to eat it. So you say like, change everything, burn it to the ground, cultural reset. Okay, this is what it looks like. Oh, and then if you whack in, oh, your season ticket's going up by this much at a time when the team are not playing very well, that only makes people feel...

worse about things as well. I think Andy as well, it's because they've been so bad, isn't it? You know, I think fans can cope with them like being below the level we expect, but they've been so far below the level that they expect. And also with Amarant's system as well, you want to see more signs of...

hope in there don't you I mean I suppose in the Spurs performance Laurie there was some signs of hope with some of the attacking play that they put together some of the chances they created that can give supporters you know a

A little bit of positivity. You were even getting criticism for being too upbeat with some of your coverage of the match on Sunday. Yeah, I thought I was just reporting what I saw, but obviously threaded together, I suppose they were all kind of positive, apart from the first bit where I said it was a soft goal to concede. I mean, poor goal to concede, right? That one where the players just don't seem to be reacting to things. And then ultimately it's the decisive moment in the game. But I think, you know, we think back to the game at the Etihad in the game at Anfield where...

Certainly the one at Anfield where there was more front-footedness away from home against a team that are very good, probably going to win the title. And that showed what this system at its best, well maybe not at its best because it's still, you know, it's kind of putting players into positions they're not necessarily accustomed to. But if he had all the players that he wanted, there is potential in this system where you've got,

as to you know tonight's performance door group overlapping the number 10 and you've got two attacking players there and if they get that combination right that's that's going to be a goal like it feels like that is a repeated mechanism that can work if you've got these kind of athletic creative players in the right positions where it does become an offensive formation rather than a back five and so that's why my hope would always be give him a chance he's done it at sporting I know it's a different environment but

It's not like this guy is a chump and doesn't know what he's doing. You know, he has won things before. I always try and have patience with managers anyway. I just think, you know, if you get into a system where you're changing a guy every year, what's the point? Because you want to have something to get behind and believe in. I think there's an assumption that it will come right. But, you know, two years ago tonight, Manchester United played Barcelona off the park in Cam Now. Mm-hmm.

Is that two years ago tonight? Two years ago tonight. Wow. About Vegas number 10. Maybe I'm stretching it saying they played them off the park because it was a 2-0, but it was a really good Manchester United performance and United did go through to the next round. Of that team, only Casemiro and Luke Shaw and Bruno Fernandes remain at Manchester United. And with every sale, we assumed...

that this was because Manchester United were going to improve because of this sale and that the next player coming in would be an improvement. The reality has been that there has been a huge regression and we're assuming that Ruben Amorim is going to get things right. And the patience tends to snap at about two years. We've got loads of evidence on that now.

And we're assuming or hoping that any of us get it right because they came into a fanfare. They came into phrases like best in class. I can remember this podcast after Fulham in the first game of the season and the plaudits from listeners to this podcast going, at last, serious football people in charge. Oh yeah? 15th in the league with a third of the season to go. They sacked one of them. Yeah, they did sack one of them. Now,

I do think we do have to be patient. You know, this is clearly a bigger ripping up of the structure if there was one, but there's no guarantees at the end of it. And as Jim Ratcliffe said to me in that interview, oh, by the way, everyone else is trying to get to the top as well. It's not just us. And they're far better resource than they've ever been.

Right, we've still got two more podcasts to do this week, so I think we should probably leave it there on Talk of the Devils. This was supposed to be the bite-sized post-match Spurs reaction pod, but I think that was a very important conversation. I think it echoes what a lot of Manchester United fans are feeling at the moment, the conversations that people are having with friends in the pub on WhatsApp.

the conversations people are having with themselves. I think it's pretty well reflective of that. Before we go then, a couple of reminders. Connections Sports Edition, it's a new game for sports fans from The Athletic, a daily dose of trivia, very satisfying. And Laurie can tell you that it's very addictive. I think he's top scored on that.

I wrote more than one. Well, I tried writing more than one of these puzzles for it. Oh, so Carl's contributed. Nice. If you spot one that isn't too US-centric, that might have been one I did a draft or two in. Interesting. We can keep an eye out for that then. If you want to play, you can do that at theathletic.com forward slash connections. And remember, Talk of the Devils Extra is coming this Wednesday. It's on Manchester United's Striker Search. If you want to get in touch with us, devilspod at theathletic.com.

And we'll do our normal episode previewing the trip to Goodison Park, the last trip for Manchester United to Goodison Park on Thursday. So we'll speak to you soon either way. Thank you, Andy. Thank you, Laurie. Thank you, Carl. And we'll see you on the next one. Take care. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.