Why always Anfield at the worst time? A December to forget
01:07:42 Share

This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate first. Like you know to check the date of the big game first,

before you accidentally buy tickets on your 20th wedding anniversary and have to spend the next 20 years of your marriage making up for it. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Savings vary. Terms apply. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Northbrook, Illinois.

At Sierra, you'll always find apparel, footwear and gear for 20 to 60% less than department and specialty store prices. But right now it's clearance time, so you can save even more on everything you need to get active and outside. Visit your local Sierra store today. The Athletic FC Podcast Network. This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. We're back and it's a happy new year.

Or is it? 14th in the table, 60 feats in December alone. The worst month for Manchester United in 95 years. Liverpool are way up next, then it's Arsenal. Don't worry about that yet. We've got the podcast to get through. We'll review a year of Ineos, talk about Rashford, talk about that sub for Xerxe the other day as well.

All good news really, so yeah, great to be back. Andy, Carl, Laurie, all looking back at me with the same sort of expression, slightly confused, sort of happy to be here. Lots to talk about, there's no question about that. How are we doing? Yeah, I'm alright. You got that flu cough thing that everyone else has got? Oh aye, yep. Yep, yep.

Lemon and ginger. More ginger than you think other than cayenne pepper on top of that. It's going to take more than lemon, ginger and cayenne pepper to sort me out, Larry. I don't know about you. I was thinking it needs a bit of spice in the United team, doesn't it? A bit of cayenne pepper sprinkled on top of what has been confusing, you said there, Ian. It's been some confusing displays. So much to get into, though. I mean, obviously, from a...

The fan within you is sort of wanting it to be good, positive, but obviously from a kind of journalistic perspective or just an interested observer perspective, there's so much to talk about. Yeah, it's amazing really that it feels like a long time ago, Andy, that we last recorded 10 days ago, gathered in that comms room at Old Trafford after the defeat to Bournemouth. But in some ways, nothing's changed in a way. It's just got worse. I mean, can you believe that Manchester United...

As we sit here now, a 14th in the table. It's the lowest rank they've had at this stage of a league season since 1989. And I didn't think it could get worse, but match by match, it seems to deepen. It does. The team, if nothing else, are consistent in that they keep on losing. As that all goes over Christmas, it was just worse and worse and worse. By the Newcastle match, I stood outside Old Trafford for two hours before the game.

and when you do that in real life you meet all kinds of people I didn't find anybody apart from a child who was maybe nine or ten who thought Manchester United were going to win the match that is how low it's become and they were right we saw within 19 minutes as Newcastle United went ahead it's been really grim and there will be a time in the future when things are a bit brighter when we'll look back at moments like this but we we are in the

You mentioned 1989-90. I remember it well. The team didn't win a game between, I think it was the 11th of November and mid-February. I remember it well. I never ever thought I would see this again. And it's happening. Do you remember at the start of December?

We almost joked about losing five last December. Well, you're getting told off for this, by the way, in our emails. This is from Stephen Underwood. One for Andy. Maybe next season, don't mention our festive results and we might not have five defeats on the bounce. We have nothing left, but our superstitions keep up the good work. Yeah, I feel for...

For everybody who's watching Manchester United right now. He's actually predicted a defeat at Anfield there as well, hasn't he, to be fair? Because they've only lost four on the bounce at the moment. But yeah, Carl, whichever way you look, I mean, the stats are not good, are they? I've mentioned two already. Another one, three straight home league losses for the first time since 1979. These are all from Laurie's relegation piece. I mean, I'll talk about the relegation thing in a moment because that's something we definitely need to get into. But yeah,

Kyle, can you believe just how bad this has got? Because people are asking for a group therapy session again. Mike's missed it over Christmas, he says. Yes, I did think it'd be bad. And I've said that this is going to take a while. I've said this is going to be in the year of churn. And I said it's going to take seasons, not weeks, to get better. Andy said this multiple times about how he's been told by people in and around the club that the squad isn't very good. You may remember after one of the live shows, I brought up an instance where

where a former United pro went. The problem is this team are soft and unfortunately not very bright. And I've got stories like that ringing through my head. It's very, very rare that you have a squad that is this low on physical capacity and running power that also lacks this amount of technicality. Normally if you're

you've got a bunch of people that you can bully off the ball they tend to be really crisp precise passers or vice versa and United have a dearth of both so there are games like say Newcastle where Newcastle is just utterly dominant physically they're out of possession scheme you know you've got midfield of Tenali Joelinton and

and keep them out of it and you're like right they're just going to run it through your guts and then be done with it and then you've also got games like Bournemouth where Bournemouth are as Andy likes to call them a decent side that can pass the ball a bit and they can access areas pretty well there are multiple ways you can get this United team which is brutal so my advice is stop looking at the league table like it's going to get it's going to get really nasty before it gets good again not our word nasty but stop looking at that table yeah our word nasty I mean

I was surprised that Amarim chose to acknowledge the relegation stuff. It seemed to me like the type of thing that you could just dismiss out of hand, but you picked out the quote, Laurie, in your piece. We have to acknowledge our position. I think people are tired of excuses in this club. Sometimes I talk about relegation because our club needs a shock.

What do you make of the way he embraced almost the questions on United maybe being dragged into a relegation fight? I mean, it is his style, right, to approach things head on and not shirk away from difficult topics, which I think we all admired, certainly in his opening weeks of, well, opening days, I suppose, of his management at United. But this one is an interesting one because it is,

I've spoken to people around United that think it's perhaps, it's a bold, it's a gamble because you're talking about relegation. Are you then readjusting players' mentalities to that being the case where, you know, sort of you're not even trying to aspire towards European football and that then allows people to sort of, you know, accept, you know, lesser performances, you know,

And obviously, United being out of Europe is a huge issue financially for the club. That can't be underestimated. Or, I think in his mind, he is trying to, as he says, shock the players, jolt them to say, you are not as good as you think you are. You need to actually work hard. That's the first thing you need to do to avoid being in a relegation fight. And I think he's obviously going down that route where he feels like it's a case of shaking them up

saying the unthinkable and then that hopefully generating a kind of collective response that can then get United up to the table and maybe even

challenging because I mean they're not you know not a million miles away are they from the European places it's just that at the moment it feels like there's only one direction with the way the performances are going and then you are looking over your shoulder thinking well Ipswich beat Chelsea you know they're seven points behind they're the ones in the final relegation spot and so that's why people are then sort of thinking about this but I agree I was surprised that he kind of lent into it so much because I sort of thought you'd you'd

you'd sort of, as a United manager, you wouldn't want to address that kind of talk. I mean, I remember Eric Ten Haar getting criticised for saying that, you know, Champions League qualification was an achievement and everyone's like, well, that's not an achievement for United, you know, title, you know, challenging for the title, that's an achievement. So it's quite a fall. Survival. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I think it will be intriguing to see the effects of that kind of talk. But I suppose what I will say about Amarin is that

He does still in that moment when he's talking about relegation, it doesn't seem like he is stressed. He's obviously thinking about it deeply and clearly wants results to turn around, but he's kind of saying it in a sort of light way. So it's not, it doesn't feel so dramatic as maybe the quotes themselves look on paper, but certainly it's going to be,

Yeah, a fascinating development, how this is taken on by the players and also the executives. What's their thoughts on him addressing it in this way? Andy, they're not in a relegation fight, are they? I mean, OK, it's seven points to Ipswich. OK, they're in 14th, but it's the same margin to eighth place. I mean, they're 10 points from fifth, which is further away than it's felt in recent times and obviously could be worse in the next few weeks, maybe. But that said, they're not, are they? Come on.

Yes and no. The team are sliding. Come on. I don't think the team will go down. Well, come on in, you say. You know, I've spoke to United fans who do remember the team being relegated last time. And throughout that season, there was this phrase, we're too good to go down. And there were top players in that team. Alex Stepney, Martin Buchan, George Best, Gerry Daly.

Sammy McIlroy, Brian Kidd, Lou Macari, and they went down and nobody thought that was going to happen. If you ask me now, I do not think Manchester United will go down, but the dip in form has been a lot. That statement alone is incredible, isn't it? It is, it is, yeah. Yeah. Um,

Part of me did think the other day what a buzz it'd be going round the Championship. You're thinking about the stadiums aren't you? No, no, no. We've got the Europa League for that. Yeah, we've got the Europa League for that. I don't swear very often there but you know, come on. I mean, Laurie touched on it about the financial cost of going down. It'd be catastrophic if United went down by the way. Yeah, it would. I think the fans would absolutely stick with the team. There'd be a lot of defiance there. I don't think the team will go down. No. Yeah.

But this alarming slide, it has to stop. And I think it will stop. I just don't know how. Players will come back. You know, we're missing a couple of key players.

The fixtures will get better. The fixtures will get better and there are three, four, maybe even five teams in the Premier League who are worse than Manchester United. Relegation talk, I think, is fanciful. Maybe five. Maybe even five is fanciful. I think we do need to reconcile the other financial ramification, which is no Europe. Yeah. I think that is a more... A more realistic...

financial ramifications yeah is the fact that there might not be any European anthem or midweek games being played next season unless they win the Europa League unless they win the Europa League unless something another fanciful run in the FA Cup I don't think Manchester United will be playing in Europe next season but also at this point in time you're looking at the things going wrong at Manchester United and quite a few of them are answered by Ameren getting more contact time at Carrington yeah

Laurie, what was the number? You put a number on it as to how many training sessions he'd had with the group to work on this system. He said four with the group at Carrington in total, which seems like quite a...

small number really. He said four altogether. Yeah, altogether, yeah. So, I mean, there'll be other ones where I suppose he's not got all the players, but he was saying four. So, that's obviously because you've had so many matches. I mean, it's incredible. When you start, when you think about the December being the worst month for United basically in history, it feels like. 95 years. Yeah. But it's likely the 4-0 win over Everton. So, you sort of think... It's a derby win in there as well. A derby win. It's been such a long month, but... So, and clearly that is, you know,

unusual there's been Christmas and what have you so you feel like as Carl's saying more contact time is what he would like you know European football would allow that if they're not in there but would the commercial team with the financial department like that I don't think so Carl in terms of the system right there's been a lot of takes on this already to be fair

It's obviously not working as well as we would want it to, but Amarin is steadfast that he will stick to it. And I kind of saw his argument where he said, you know, Eric Ten Haag got sacked playing the sort of system that you want me to play. This was in response to the journalist asking about it in the press conference afterwards. And we're in exactly the same situation. So why would I change to a system I don't believe in?

as a solution to Manchester United's problems. But there's no question that the players weren't bought for this system and there's no question that the players are still getting used to it. I mean, I spoke to Christian Eriksen after the Newcastle game. He was still talking about the midfielders not quite understanding exactly what they needed to do in specific situations, which, you know, six weeks down the line, eight weeks down the line, whatever we are from when Amarim arrived, that's not great, is it?

No, it's not great. But also, we should give Amarin some grace here. There is no system out there that this group of players is good for, right? This group of players is an assorted grab bag of undervalued, overpaid parts. It's a Frankenstein's monster. It's a Pactual quilt. It's...

This is why so many managers come in, try to do something on, oh God, this doesn't quite work. I guess I'll try and do some counterattacking football because I've got Bruno Fernandes on three balls and Marcus Rashford and one other player who's very good running in behind. There is not much good structure to this team. And you talk about the midfield confusion. The midfield confusion is going to be there because the midfield has been disregarded and undervalued ever since Michael Carrick hung up his boots.

On Ericsson's comment, Carl, do you put that on him as well? Like, he's had two months to work it out. Kind of. Like, Christian Ericsson's a very interesting football player because he's, to my mind, one of the more tactically adept century midfielders in the league, right? He's played in a myriad of systems. He's a very intelligent football player on and off the pitch. He's a great talker. Before Copenhagen away, I asked Ten Haag

essentially a question about what he wants from his midfield and Ten Hag gave a very long answer that essentially boiled down to what's more important than what I want from my midfield is whether or not my midfielders can recognise how to receive the ball properly and how to pass the ball to the players correct foot properly and I put the same question to Christian and I said is that

Interesting. And Ericsson said, words to the effect of, it's a lot more freedom than I have on the previous managers, but that freedom allows me to interpret what I want very, very well.

Eriksen can get a lot of things. The problem is obviously Eriksen is unfortunately unable to run for longer than 60 minutes. And now increasing the first half, he's just getting shoulder barged off the ball. But that's a separate thing to not understanding exactly what he needs to do, isn't it? The lack of physicality. It's half and half, right? In that you are more likely to be caught

and bullied off the ball if you're not exactly stood where you are. And the margin for error for a player like Ericsson as well is also going to be a bit bigger because his legs aren't what they used to be. And I think you're going to see this with a lot of these players for a while in that you're going to have that, I'm making mistakes because I'm learning a brand new thing.

And also I'm making mistakes because I'm not naturally suited to that sort of thing. So unfortunately, between now and however long, silly things are going to happen to Manchester United. And I think one of the big things for Amri is to make sure those silly things don't lead to goals being leaked. And also when those silly things happen, these players don't get discouraged and then you have a flurry. I don't know how you felt watching the Newcastle game, but when Tenali hit the post,

I was quite thankful because I had one of those things that goal goes in the floodgates are going to be open and you might be seeing three or four so you're going to need bits like that where the mistake doesn't quite lead to a goal and then you have someone in the on the ground to go right forget about it next job well completely and people you know teams are targeting this as well the set piece situation teams are targeting it was a relief in some ways that the Newcastle

malaise at the start of the game didn't include a conceding from a set piece I mean we've got to the point where I was going to say we've got to the point where full backs are shooting from corners I mean I interviewed Mateus Cunha after the Wolves game and he said yeah we planned for that we saw it as a legitimate route to hurt Manchester United I shoot and the manager tells me that the team will look after the goalkeeper I mean I

I thought that was stark. I couldn't believe that they'd actually prepared for that. And obviously this is a different goalkeeper to the one who'd conceded straight from a corner the week before, even conceding straight from a corner twice in a week, learning a new term, Olimpico, which we'd never heard of. Manchester United have now found a way for that to find its way into common parlance. Um,

Just shocking. The start to the Newcastle game, obviously Andy wasn't helped by the fact that Ugarte and Fernandes were suspended. We'll talk about them being back for the Liverpool game later on. But one of the ways that Amarin tried to deal with their absence was starting Joshua Xerxe in the number 10 role behind Rasmus Hoyland. Obviously he was then withdrawn after just over...

half an hour to one of the worst reactions I have ever heard inside Old Trafford to anything to be honest I was completely shocked by it you've written an article about it what's your opinion? A lot of it is in that article and I spoke to players who played for Manchester United who've been booed in the past there's so many different strands to this I don't think it was all

personal abuse towards Zirksey. There was a lot of frustration mixed into that reaction. Frustration into what Manchester United have become. Shock because you don't expect to be 2-0 down against a very good Newcastle United team. I think you've got to credit them. I thought their midfield were excellent and they

disappointment because Xerxe hasn't been the player so far that fans hoped that he would be I remember the pod after the Fulham game when he scored the winner at the start of the season and some of the opinions floating about smart signing sensible football people now in charge and I remember really holding back and saying let's make a judgement in six months and five or six months on we're now in that

a better position to make a judgment. Did you not think it was personal to Xerxe then? A little bit. In the fact that people have been disappointed about his signing, about his impact. A little bit. If any other player was taken off, it wasn't even the boos for me. It was the ironic cheers that his number had been held up, which, you know, no matter what, that just feels incredibly harsh on him. I didn't like it at all. And I've written that in the piece. I do actually think if it would have been one of five or six other players, you would have had a similar reaction. He,

He has become more of a scapegoat. He's been asked to play in different positions. I think Brian McLean makes an interesting point in the piece that I've done. People look at him and make an assumption about the type of player that he is. He's actually not that type of player. I've seen Ryan Giggs booed. I've seen Michael Carrick get horrendous abuse from Manchester United fans. It does turn it upside down a little bit because you often hear match-going fans say,

feeling that they wouldn't do the pernicious abuse of players that you sometimes see on social media. Well, there was abuse of Joshua Zirksey the other night. Yeah. And there was just a lot of frustration in it. Fair play to Garnaccio for encouraging fans to,

to applaud him fair play to Xerxe for not storming out the ground we've seen that before for coming back out for the second half he came back out straight away yeah okay he was only in the tunnel for like a couple of minutes I think yeah but he was upset wasn't he and I can understand it I've spoke to so many players over the years who say there is nothing worse than being booed by your own fans

really your confidence just ebbs away so what do Man United fans want from this did he want his confidence to ebb away and he just slowly leaves the club and goes to play for Girona with Donny van de Beek or do you want this guy to have more chances which I do it doesn't look like he's good enough to play for Man United at the moment but neither do the other 11 players at the moment you know

I'm pretty forgiving. I think people should... As you said, he's 23 years old. He's living in a new country. He's playing in the toughest league in the world, in a faltering team, in a changing system. There's so many factors there. I would like to see him supported. And I also think United fans could be doing better. I don't think the fans have been great this season. It's all right cheering when you're winning, when you're winning trebles. Now is when that team needs the support more than any time ever. And it's a bit chicken and egg here because fans will go...

What, they're asking for 66 quid for a ticket or they don't deserve our applause. I get that. Equally, I go to football games around the world where the atmosphere is miles, miles better, miles better than at Manchester United, where fans of teams really low down in the league play.

in South America really get behind the team what do we get at Old Trafford you get the players coming in warming up 15 minutes before the game starts and the stadium's empty I think the fans can do more I really do and I know it's difficult but if you're going to get behind the team and the fans did it at half time for Ruben Amorim they really started singing him and that was good I like that defiance

Then again, it's chicken and egg all along this. How much difference do the fans make? Would the fans being loud have stopped Newcastle United steaming through the midfield? It's a basket case of awfulness at the moment.

Yeah, Patrick's email on this point, Laurie. I've been going to Old Trafford for 30 years, but I had a six-month break due to travel and work. I was shocked by the change in the vibe on Saturday. So this was prior to the Newcastle game, I think. From kick-off, the fans were on the players' backs, shouting at them for doing something wrong, especially Xerxe and Malasia, pressurising them, oh, Nana.

or just straight up shouting insults. It was a terrible atmosphere, in his opinion, from the first minute. I'm not misty-eyed. I remember gigs getting stick and Cantona in his last season, but this is something different. It felt toxic. It felt like United need a captain like Keane to stand up to the fans and say, your job is to support us, not hinder us. One thing I've always loved about United is how we support our players, even returning players coming back to Old Trafford playing for new clubs.

always respectful polite applause and a warm welcome it made me ashamed seeing the United fans sarcastically cheering Xerxe then booing him he's a young lad huge pressure foreign country and only a few months in the fans behaviour was the opposite of what I love about our club we need to do what we can to put a stop to it I think it's worth trying to

analyse exactly what happened in that moment because I think I was trying to figure it out as I was there watching it. Yeah, there was jeers for the number coming up because at that point people were just exasperated at the fact of Newcastle walking through United. You mentioned that Tenali chance. It was like trying to walk the ball in the net. It was taking the piss and I think United fans were thinking what are we watching here? So I think anybody, everyone was asking for a substitution at that point. It was 30 minutes in. Everyone was like this midfield is getting overrun.

I was surprised that it wasn't Casemiro or Ericsson coming off I think people did particularly react to Xerxes number going up with the Jays I think the boos then I heard boos I was wondering what they're booing are they booing that it isn't somebody else coming off I think it was actually fans turning on the Jays so I think there was some kind of checking yeah

of people that were as Patrick's email says were not kind of behaving in a way that I think they felt United fans should behave and then even as Xerxe was coming to the bench there was people stood up around me applauding him to try and sort of show support and then yeah he goes down the tunnel comes back out well even going down the tunnel so as he goes down the tunnel he's got his head down very quiet because it was right in front of us the fans are then beginning to applaud him yeah sort of

exclusively applaud him. Yeah. As if to sort of pick him up because he was so visibly affected by what had happened completely understandably that they tried to pick him up and then he didn't respond to those,

to that applause which again is understandable considering how upset he would be with it and then there was then people booing the fact that he'd not responded to the applause I mean it's just ridiculous wild kind of atmosphere a night game you know you sort of got that thrown into the mix as well he comes up with his hood up so clearly he's like I just want to get back to the bench and not have to acknowledge everybody else

So it was really, it was a surreal, it was quite a striking image. I think to the point of, you know, players in the past getting stick, you sort of felt that they were perhaps more robust, you know. I mean, certainly Fergie didn't, he used to kind of have a go at gigs because he knew that Nani was listening and really the message was for Nani, you know, you're kind of playing off players

people's characteristics so I'm not saying that therefore they deserve a boo and Xerxe can't handle that kind of criticism but it felt particularly awkward for a guy that's new into this league that's kind of trying to establish himself and I'm not saying that it's the right signing necessarily and maybe it hasn't it's not going to work out but I feel like

yeah that kind of atmosphere is not going to help the situation albeit you can understand why people in this world of potentially being asked to pay more for their tickets are feeling entitled to voice their displeasure I think that you've got to throw that into the mix but

And also, you know, Amarim sort of picking that midfield of Eriksen and Casemiro. We've seen it before this season. We know it doesn't work. And, OK, he's trying different things. But, you know, then to take Xerxe off it, it was, yeah, we can analyse that and sort of wonder whether that was the right call, you know, in the fullness of time. But it was, yeah, such a striking image of what is going wrong at United at the moment.

I use the New York Times games app every single day. I love playing Connections. With Connections, I need to twist my brain to see the different categories. I think I know this connection. Look.

Bath is a city in England. Sandwich is a city in England. Reading is a city in England. And I'm going to guess Derby is a city in England. I started Wordle 194 days ago, and I haven't missed a day. The New York Times Games app has all the games right there. I absolutely love spelling bee. I always have to get genius. I've seen you yell at it and say, that should be a word. Totally should be a word.

Sudoku is kind of my version of lifting heavy weights at the gym. At this point, I'm probably more consistent with doing the crossword than brushing my teeth. When I can finish a hard puzzle without pins, I feel like the smartest person in the world. When I have to look up a clue to help me, I'm learning something new. It gives me joy every single day. Start playing in the New York Times Games app. You can download it at nytimes.com slash games app.

Okay, well, we'll try to look ahead then at what's to come for Manchester United in the next few weeks. Obviously, it's Liverpool away up next. We'll preview that in a moment. But since we last recorded the podcast, Laurie, you've put a piece out on The Athletic with some of your colleagues looking back at a year of INEOS and...

looking at how the club is going to function moving forward from this point as well. An extremely revealing read once again. Not all of it positive, it feels like either. Yeah. I mean, it's been a year since they got the keys to the place and it was that Christmas Eve where...

Sir Jim Ratcliffe was basically telling the Glazers to hurry up and accept his deal and that's all in the SEC filing that then got published later on, a few months later. So it felt like a good point to just assess what's gone on and we did have a few people say, well they didn't actually get approval until February, you know, is this really a genuine year? Well no, yeah, they were having influence from Christmas Eve. It's not the biggest issue at the moment is it? I know, yeah, it's the timing. So I think it was, yeah, just

Just interested in the fact of they've obviously come in, made a load of redundancies, they're stripping things back. I think some of the details that we found out about how they're stripping things back was startling and we're still seeing it, aren't we, with reports of disabled supporters, clubs having funding potentially cut, Man United Foundation. There's different aspects of this club that it feels like are getting scrutinised for money that you're wondering if...

is this really beneficial to the club? Is this really going to save you the kind of money that needs to be saved? No, is the answer. But it's obviously a strategy and approach from Ratcliffe. And his influence was very clear to us when speaking to people as to how he wants Manchester United to run, you know, counting the pennies. But yeah, I think they also need to make sure that the pounds are looked after and that comes back to recruitment. You know, we've spoken about it a lot. And the manager situation. But yeah, there's a few little bits that I thought were quite interesting in terms of

For example, Chief Executive Omar Barada, from what we're told, has a spending approvals limit of £25,000, which is a small amount of money, right? And it goes... Anything above that is basically then passed up the chain. Ratcliffe, Roger Bell, the CFO, Rob Nevin as well, we think are involved in looking at the kind of spending that United do. So that is quite interesting. And then also, sort of...

questions about the stadium you know it's already been pushed back it was supposed to be the end of this year that a kind of decision was made or at least a recommendation was made by the task force clearly Ratcliffe would like a new stadium but how on earth do you fund that when the Glazers have put the club in so much debt and I'm not letting them off the hook here because they've certainly damaged the club to a degree where it now makes it very difficult to take on more debt and

and will they even allow for example Jim Ratcliffe to put his own money in if it means equity coming out of their stake so there's all kinds of questions that are being asked and the piece hopefully goes into that in quite a lot of detail it's a long piece so pour yourself a cup of tea but hopefully it's one that gives a little bit of insight into what's been going on Yeah it was quite a thing to pour over Yeah you read it all on Christmas Day right Ian? Christmas presents and cooking on Christmas morning yeah absolutely

Bar Humbug comes to mind. But, Carl, I mean...

When you look at the finances, and we'll talk about what the picture is heading into the January transfer window for United, but when you look at the finances of the club, clearly something has to change. But I can't help thinking that some of the headline changes, some of the headline cuts that are reportedly being made, aren't exactly helping the mood at the moment, are they? Yeah, it's really awkward. There's been two or three stories about job cuts to Jim Radcliffe recently.

looking at certain areas and trying to make people redundant. And you're going, who benefits from this? And as Laurie put there, yeah, they're watching pennies, but the pounds are the real issue here. And sometimes it does feel like being cruel for no other point other than to be cruel, rather than to help write this huge, bloated, super tanker of a football club. It's difficult. I don't think there's any situation where

looking into trimming the funding for retired players or the foundation is worth whatever you get in the long run but I'm not a billionaire so who knows

Andy, you're not either, but... Millionaire. Another opinion. On the way. So many awkward announcements. Someone in the club said to me during one of the... around one of the defeats, we just can't get a good headline at the moment. And that's partly because the football results are bad, but partly because of these headlines that we're seeing. Some of the changes were absolutely necessary. And Laurie's quite right to say the glazes. Someone had to pick up the pieces deliberately

Jim Ratcliffe's picking up those pieces and their shards of glass because there are problems everywhere. And one of the bits in the piece that Laurie did, David Gill was on a million pounds a year. You know when Sir Alex Ferguson's money was cut as well, somebody said to me, the fans are going to revolt against this. And I'm like, no they're not. I don't think they will at all. Sir Alex Ferguson's one of the greatest managers that I've ever seen.

But there are people who are on serious amounts of money and you would question what they're doing to earn that serious amounts of money. At the other end of the scale, a player who gets a few hundred quid for turning up and working the lounges...

and that plays a big part of their social life as well. It's not just financial. This is where a football club is part of the community. And at the heart of it all, Manchester United, as we saw with Caf, Caf Phipps and the reaction to that, there is still a real good family feel to that football club, but it's changing massively now with Ineos coming in. And I've told them, I've told them about the former players. These players,

These are the legacy, they are the history. A lot of people support Manchester United because of the history. There's been major milestones in the club's history which make the club very attractive. It's the same with Liverpool, it's the triumph, it's the tragedy. It's not just a fluke that these two clubs are by far the biggest in England. And if you're not that, you might as well just be Manchester City where it's all about numbers and data. And Manchester United's history and heritage is really, really important to the identity of the club and it has to be treated with care.

equally the club were losing a fortune and still are and you say recruitment and you're totally right and it is payback time now it's payback now for Alexis Sanchez for Angel Di Maria for all these players and we could name 30 of them over the last decade that

What fans tend to do is it's not working out. Get rid. Okay, get rid. But you do realize you'll be paying for this for the next seven years, by the way, or the next eight years or the next nine years. And one of the points which I also put to Jim Ratcliffe and what he put to me, sorry, was we've got to pay for all this. Someone has got to pay for all this.

And fans, get rid of Ten Hag. Okay, get rid. Okay, who's going to pay the 14 million quid? That's got to come from somewhere. And I'm really uncomfortable that these figures absolutely dwarf the relatively tiny amounts that are being cut from the foundation, the association of former players. There definitely needs to be some financial scrutiny. There definitely needed to be some awkward questions. There was definitely people taking advantage of the club's largesse.

or the Glazers being on the other side of the world and not keeping a full track on everything. But it is awkward and will continue to be. And there's going to be more of these announcements, by the way. Yeah. There just is. It's just awful. I can't pretend it's something that it isn't. I don't have any miracle answers here.

No, and it's all adding to the cocktail, like I suggested to Kyle before, Laurie, as well, isn't it? And part of that cocktail and another part that fans won't want to hear is that January isn't looking like it's going to provide much of a solution to Manchester United's first team issue. Why did you have to say the word cocktail twice when you're asking me that question? Mold margarita, by the way, over the Christmas period. All this makes you thirsty. It does make you thirsty. Need a drink after some of these performances as well.

But yeah, the January one, I mean, yeah, it feels like, well, from what we're told, they've got no money. The PSR, FFP calculations are so tight that, as Ruben Amarin said to me after the game against Newcastle, it's not a possibility for us. We have to sell to buy. Now, does that mean that they're not going to sell to buy? Obviously, the Marcus Rashford situation is one thing.

there's other players that they might decide to look at and think okay well they're not quite working in this system let's see if we can get some money in that would mean United having to sell better than they've ever done before though I mean I know they got decent money for Scott McTominay for example in the summer but it's not

you know, not being able to then change the world with that kind of fund coming in. So that's going to be really fascinating. That being said, you know, we thought this about sacking Eriksen Haag, that was a consideration for them. And then in the end, they found 10.4 million to dismiss him and they found 11 million euros to appoint Ruben Amarin. So you've got these kind of conflicting opinions

forces almost where there's no money and the regulation calculations are very tight but that being said Sir Jim Ratcliffe is a man in a hurry and clearly won't want to see the first appointment of his tenure go the wrong way you know and it looks like he needs support in freshening up his squad but

So let's see. I mean, certainly just to kind of echo Andy's point a little bit more, the piece hopefully touches on some of the kind of spending that was going on under the Glazers. It was almost like people had a bit of a blank checkbook in some respects. In the commercial department, let's say, United at the time would say, well, that's what you need to do to get these big sponsorship deals over the line. Now, I think there was probably some aspects where it was pushing it and definitely going over the line. I think Ratcliffe is looking at it thinking, well,

let's make a clean sweep across the board where clearly I'm going to scrutinise everything so people have that in their brains not to take the mic and therefore you build up from that point. Now, obviously, that's not necessarily going to cause a great mood around the place and how much does that then feed into the players? That's the kind of question. I'm never too sure about that really. But certainly, as Andy's saying, and in terms of January, there's going to be

a lot of X's and O's to Karl's point being put down on the balance sheet and how to figure it all out. Yeah, in terms of exits, Casemiro's name is beginning to be mentioned in the media, not on The Athletic I might add, but he's one of the names that's been mentioned. Obviously Marcus Rashford as well with the situation that he is in and the club is in with him at the moment. He was back in the squad for the Newcastle game after being left out of four matches over the Christmas period and

unused sub of course in that game in the end so not a complete resolution and certainly Amarim's comments that he was only really included because United were lacking players wasn't exactly the fanfare return that it might have been. Andy your name and his name went viral the other day with your comments to a British radio station with Rashford I mean do you see this changing do you think he'll leave in January what do you see as the next move?

I didn't say anything in that interview. I've not said on this podcast or written in United We Stand over the years. Firstly, Casemiro. There was talks with the Saudi club this time last year. He obviously earns a huge amount of money. I think if an offer came in which took him and his substantial wages off United's books, the club would absolutely be amenable to that. With Marcus Rashford, sad, sad, sad, as I have consistently said.

Weird the other night, because he was the first player warming up, wasn't he? If you're going to criticise the manager, and I've been backing him, and I quite like his demeanour and the way that he's dealing with questions, bringing Xerxe off, the manager is partly culpable for that, because there's going to be a response to that. And bringing Marcus Rashford in and not playing him only leads to more questions. I don't think it's personal from Ruben Amorim. I think he's evaluating all of the players personally.

And for reasons which he sees on a daily basis, he's not choosing Marcus Rashford. And Marcus Rashford then did that interview with Henry Winter, where he said he was amenable to leaving Manchester United. And my overwhelming feeling is just sadness. You've got a Manchester lad, you've got a United fan who's given us some brilliant moments in pretty bleak times.

I just can't help but thinking things would have been so much different had his career started in 2005 under Sir Alex Ferguson rather than 2015. Maybe a change is just better for him. There's arguments on both sides with Marcus Rashford. I just feel it is really sad, but he doesn't look happy. He's not playing and nor is his team to the levels that he would have hoped for.

This is nothing new. We had this chat in 19. We had this chat almost every year and it's punctuated by some very good seasons as well. He's living in the Goldfish Bowl of Manchester and I don't think that's a good thing for him either. You know them other players, they can go home to socialise. Marcus is in Manchester. He's being judged absolutely everywhere. He's not perfect. I really was uneasy about some of the stuff around him when he had a halo stuck on his head.

And I'm thinking, this isn't you. So I've had concerns about him for years. Even now, I hope there's, I'd love to see him star for Manchester United. I really would. But I figure that that ship is sailing. I don't know what the other lads think.

Yeah, in the 10 days, Kyle, since we last did the pod, we were inundated with emails about Rashford's situation. Like Andy suggested, lots of differing views, like we've reflected, to be fair, already on the podcast in recent weeks. Fans like Somak saying getting back in the team for the Newcastle game, fans like Paul saying

saying that we're sitting on the fence on the situation with Rashford and being quite angry about the way that he's been in recent times. Linda, he's a kid who gave his best years to United in the end, looks to have been broken by the pressure and the chaos. So, you know, so many different views on this and...

you know, it's a mess, isn't it? And Rashford being back in the team, as we saw the other night, doesn't necessarily solve any of it. Yeah, no, no, I agree. It's a mess and it is unfortunate. But I do repeat what I said after the Manchester derby of whatever he's going through, he's going to be the one to get out of it. If he wants to continue being a Manchester United player, he has to do something at Carrington to show Amarant that he's worth not only being included in the squad, but being back in the first team.

If he wants to leave, he's going to have to put together some training performances to get back in the team anyway. So other clubs around Europe or around the world can go, oh, this Marcus Rashford person still wants to be a football player at a top level and let's put a bid in. Whatever is going on, he has to figure a way through. I think Amron's been pretty consistent in press conferences and whatnot about what he wants. And if you look at the team so far,

And the players that have done well, such as Ahmad Diallo, that's the sort of positional awareness, off-the-ball work, being courageous and running behind, pushing into the final third. These are things we've seen Marcus Rashford do before. I perhaps haven't seen him do it that much this season, outside of the Everton game. Can he find that within him to do himself? He has to. So...

We're going to have to see what happens next. Yeah, Laurie, the thing as well is that Amarim's spoken a lot about this, but hasn't fully explained exactly the reason why Rashford isn't in the team. He's spoken around the issue and he's spoken about some of the things that he expects to see from his players, but he's not actually explicitly spelled out what the problem is, has he? No, and obviously that's perhaps then our jobs to find out exactly what the problem is and what has gone on.

I think it's fair to say I've heard lots of stuff, but you've got to verify it. You've got to make sure that it's actually correct rather than people gossiping and kind of getting the wrong end of the stick. There's been a lot of that as well, hasn't there? Yeah, exactly. And I do feel that he is obviously a player that's very gossiped about and he might fairly say it's not correct, but...

I think clearly something pretty significant, I'm not saying necessarily one thing, but I think something significant is going on for the point of him being excluded from match day squads for four squads, for then being on the bench against Newcastle, United being 2-0 down after 20 minutes and him bringing off an attacker and still not sending on Marcus Rashford at any point in the game. It didn't look like he was ever going to send him on. And the statement before to Gary Neville about, as you say Ian, basically being a

a case of numbers that he was even in the squad. And then after the game, I sort of asked him and I can tell he's obviously getting... It was only two questions though before and after that. It was the only question about Rashford after the game, I think. But he was sort of saying, oh, you guys, you know, focus on Marcus. You know, I focus on the team and I want the team to win. Okay, well, taking that at face value then, you don't think the team had a better chance of winning with Marcus Rashford on the pitch, really. You know, it's kind of what you potentially...

alluding to there. Now, I think that's probably being a bit facetious and actually his point is around a group mentality and wanting the best for the team. And obviously we know that he had issues under Eric Ten Haag. We've written about them in terms of the night out in Belfast where he was then dropped from the squad for Newport County, although I think he was offering to play in that game. But then Ten Haag brought him back for the Wolves game started, you know, so clearly Ameren is doing something different here.

we'll try and figure out exactly what's going on and I guess perhaps just stay tuned to the Athletic in case we're able to kind of put more meat on the bones. But I just think that overall it just feels quite significant if you're getting lukewarm statements from the manager. Rashford himself says, I'm up for leaving. You know, the January transfer window is upon us.

We know that selling academy players counts as pure profit in terms of the PSR calculations. It feels like it's going to be a very difficult sale if that is what all parties agree to because of his salary, because of...

a transfer fee that Manchester United would want who out there would actually be able to finance both a fee and his wages but it just feels quite a significant one because he was obviously dropped from the squad for the Man City game same as Alejandro Garnaccio you know I'm told it's a very different situation between the pair of them and Garnaccio obviously was brought back for the Spurs game and he's been on he's been coming off the bench okay he hasn't started yet since that point but he has been featuring at least

So yeah, the Rashford one feels more serious, I suppose. Okay. Like Laurie says, keep your eyes peeled to The Athletic for any updates on this situation, any further explanation as to what exactly is going on. It will not be the last time that we talk about Marcus Rashford on this podcast. I can absolutely guarantee you that no matter what happens. ♪

Let's cheer ourselves up by previewing the game next up for Manchester United. Yes, it's a trip to Anfield this weekend. Liverpool won defeat all season. That was back in September. They've got more than double the points of Manchester United so far in the Premier League at the halfway point. The sixth clear of second place, who are Arsenal, and they've also got a game in hand as well. And Andy, this...

This just seems to be a recurring thing about going to Anfield with morale on the floor. Last season, we were in the middle of a run of five defeats in eight games for this Liverpool away game. Obviously, we got a 0-0 draw, which felt like a 5-0 victory at the time in some ways. A year before, we were in great form, unbeaten in a month going to Anfield, lost 7-0. A year before that, we'd only won one out of eight in the build-up to the game. Phil Jones ended up being a surprise inclusion by Ralph Rangnick, lost 4-0.

something's got to change with this fixture hasn't it? The 22 game was interesting because I was rallying my mates going it's never going to be as bad as this we've got to get in that away end and we've got to proper get behind our team and two and a half years later it's now even worse than this and that game it was like the Newcastle the other night I think Liverpool were ahead after three or four minutes something oh no

I hope the players are listening to this because I cannot see any way Manchester United get a result at Anfield. Didn't we say this last year though? Yeah, we did. And then Super Johnny combined at the back...

And it was hilarious because they had like 124% of possession and just couldn't score. A million shots, couldn't score. Do you know, even the winter of discontent that you've referred to repeatedly, Andy, 1989, yeah? December the 23rd, trip to Anfield, United in miserable form, historically bad, nil-nil draw.

You know, a fella got in touch with me the other day called Arthur Jones and he was like the social convener for the players in the 1980s. And I knew his name. He lives in Spain now and he's in his 70s and all the players knew him. And I knew his name because in one of my books years ago, he'd gone up Anfield away by himself in the main stand because one of his mates, I think Arthur Albertson, got him the ticket. And there's this brilliant story of Liverpool being like European champions, winning everything, but Man United go there and

Arthur scores a goal and this man goes up by himself, gets in there. And I love stuff like this. I wish for stuff like this to happen again. And it will do. Um,

And I'm just butting and hesitating everywhere because I just can't see where it's coming from. I'm just, the realism is horrible, isn't it? Let's look at some good bits. Go on. Yes, please, Carl. I'm all ears, mate. Honestly, give me hope. Cracking knuckles here, sitting back in my seat. I'm getting the cup of tea, lighting the cigar. You tell me about the good bits. Ugarte's going to be back from suspension. And I'd say Ugarte's been one of the biggest beneficiaries of Amarin being at United. He's really, really beginning to put

He's also getting a bit better at passing forwards as well, which is quite nice. Bruno Fernandes is going to be back from suspension as well. That's pretty good too, so you get some more options. I think Mainu, when Mainu came on against Newcastle, I know he's spoken a lot about Xerxe coming off, but Mainu coming on really did clean things up a lot. That was a really good performance from him. So you've got Mainu as a potential starting option there too.

Lenny Oro didn't play I think Lenny Oro is another player that has a lot of potential and Amrin very very clearly thinks highly of him doesn't want to waste or doesn't want to risk him being injured too much so those are four people who haven't played too much

in recent weeks. Are we stopping at four? I'll take four. Come on, Carl. I'm loving this, Carl. Just get to five, six and seven because I agree with everything you've said about the reasons you... Andy, don't say five, six and seven when we're going to Anfield. Yeah. Sorry, sorry, sorry. So, look, we'll take that. There are personnel. There are players in there. The squad is not as completely...

Whatever, as people think. I think there are ways that Amarink can tinker and twist the team to at least bring some more stability and some girth to that.

Stodge. What did I say? Stodge. Good point. Agarty's a decent player. We need him to do a forehand, don't we? Given the circumstances, if I got a winner at Anfield, at the Kop end, I'd run in the stand, I'd run up the step, disappear down the tunnel, just run out the stadium and never play another game of football ever again. Just disappear. That would just be your legacy. John O'Shea style.

but I'm going into a dreamland here because Liverpool are excellent they're probably the best team in Europe at the moment Mohamed Salah from what I see of him or hear about him is just like Stephen F. Kelly who's a very good writer he's a Liverpool fan but he lives in Manchester and I've got a lot of time for Stephen and his son Nick sort of Mancunians who go to Liverpool so

He said that Salah is better than Kenny Dalgleish the other day. Wow. And for a Liverpool fan to say that, I'm like, wow. And Stephen's written like 20 books about Liverpool. He was there when Shankly was there. I'm like, how's that comment even entered my head? I'm going to stop following you on social media. I don't need this. But Laurie, Laurie, any reasons to add to the Carl ones? He's pulling a face. Yeah. He's summoning words. I've never seen Laurie pull that face before. It's just...

It's just how good Liverpool are at the moment. They've got so many options in attack and they're just pulling teams apart and Salah just seems like on an absolute tear, perhaps his best form of his career. It's the most effective attacking form in the first half of a Premier League season ever. That's how good he's been. He plays in moments more than dominating games as such. He's someone who can be quiet for 90 minutes and then pop up and score still. Can't we link him with another club? With Jude Allen? No.

If we got three days...

What can United do different, Laurie? So you wrote again in your piece after the Newcastle game about the sort of negative effect in an attacking sense that Masraoui and Dalot were having at wing-back. No goals in the last three games. So we had a couple of emails about this. Kevin, for example, asking, is it time to switch Masraoui back to the right-hand side of Manchester United's back three?

and put Ahmad back at wing-back because, in his opinion, he had a great impact from wing-back in his first few matches under Amarim. And then since it's changed, it's maybe not been as effective, Derby excluded, obviously. Yeah, I mean, that's maybe... That is a tweet. I just wonder, do you do that away at Anfield? Is it almost like you kind of want your defensive wing-backs? Do it the next game away at Arsenal, it's fine. Yeah.

Yeah. I just feel like at least with Liverpool, you do kind of need to just keep it compact, right? Like, I mean, and this is where perhaps those... You know, United have gone to a back five at Liverpool before, right? You know, Luke Shaw has played as a centre-back, for example, and that was a pretty decent performance, I think. I'm trying to make sure I'm not confusing it with the 4-0 defeat, but under Solskjaer, I think it was all right. And so...

you know, this has shown us a system that can do okay at Anfield, at least in terms of keeping it tight for the beginning. And I think United, in the way that they started the Newcastle game, I feel like they just need to get a foothold in this one to begin with and then maybe you can make it more attacking as the game goes on. I mean, Amarant's shown, hasn't he, that he's got a desire to make changes now

quickly in games as they're progressing and tweak personnel in different positions so that you then get an ultimately more attacking collection of players on the pitch. But I kind of feel that maybe you just have to keep it with Masraoui and Dalot for this one, from the start at least. And that's maybe your best option. And with Ugarte coming back in, I do feel like he's got good interception and good tackle numbers so far. If you've got somebody in there that is

able to get around the pitch and able to stop the opposition playing then I think that's a positive and I mean Mainu being not including the starting line-up against Newcastle was interesting obviously he was his first choice to come on and I think he did well when he did come on so maybe those two together Andy the thing is before Newcastle and before being down to 10 men against Wolves in open play defensively United haven't really been that bad I mean the big chance numbers have been low I know that

The exact counter to this will be, well, how much have Manchester United attacked and so on and whatever else. But, you know, if they can stop conceding silly goals, like straight from corners and from set pieces and so on, actually an open play prior to Newcastle with Agate in the team, maybe that's one of the differences. They have been able to be stable in games at least, which surely gives you, I mean, I can't believe it, but...

this is as positive as I can get. But, you know, 0-0 has felt like a positive result at Anfield. If United get a 0-0 at the weekend, we'll be happy, won't we? Yeah, but United conceded 18 goals in December, Ian. Yeah, I know. All right, your point about open play. And Amarin's touched on this. You're picking out fragments where...

Up until going behind at Arsenal away, for example. You ask people to try. I'm trying to find 0.5. And the manager is trying to do the same. And there were moments against Tottenham, even in the defeat, where Manchester United looked all right. But this is also ten-hog-ism, isn't it? We did the same. Yeah, we've just been beaten at West Ham. I know you're about to lose your job, but we actually played well in the first half and had 422 chances. United did play well in the first half. I will maintain that. They did. Yeah, they did. They did. Can't airbrush history, Andy. Come on.

Unfortunately, when you look back in 100 years at the books, if people still consume books then, it will be the league position and the score, which is the headline. For parts of games, Manchester United have done all right. Even against Newcastle in the second half, the change did actually work.

These players are nowhere near as bad as the league position suggests. They will be hurting. They don't want this. This idea that they're somehow not trying, that some people push forward. I don't buy that at all. They're professional footballers. They want to be winning. They want to be confident. But the confidence is really low at the moment. And they're about to go to the most unforgiving place to play a game against a very good team. Football can surprise us. I'd love to be...

I'd love to see it all come together. It actually did last year at the end of December when United did have a very good game plan. But then Ruben Amorim has said that he's not for compromising. And he's said repeatedly there's a short-term shock for a long-term game. So it looks like he's going to go all out against Liverpool again.

And that makes me really uncomfortable. He'll tweak it. He'll tweak it. He sticks with the system, but he does tweak it. Yes, and he said he changes every single game. And that's true. He's not. When he says he's not going to tweak it... Has he made too many changes, Karl? I think when he says he's going to tweak the system, he's not going to rock up with a 4-3-3. Right? We're not going to see... Or at least the starting line-up won't be a 4-3-3 because there are absolutely points in time when you're watching United and they are stood in a 4-3-3 doing things.

things. And he made the point the other night about the four not being that different to a three as well. I think getting bogged down in starting formation is a head fake and I know we've got email questions in about should should Amarant change the system or should he change the formation or three at the back doesn't work and I think getting bogged down in that not as important as the players being

in those lineups and I think you're right there Andy in that perhaps he has changed a bit too much due to the amount of games perhaps perhaps we should have seen a little bit more of Mainu or perhaps we should have got a bit more of a mad at right wing back but because there's been so little training time he's had to force the issue a little bit these next two games to some extent United are going to have to take their lumps a little bit and then they'll have to figure out what happens next in January going forward but no I'm

hoping that United don't get a hosing at Anfield. Yeah, it's just the fact they're a week apart. This is one of the times where you did want the matches to go pretty quickly and someone to press fast forward on the fixture list. But anyway, whatever comes, we will be here to talk about it. Mads says, my favourite episodes are always the ones where the intro includes commentators from the match narrating United's goals and Old Trafford bouncing. How long do we have to wait until we get that again? You never know, my friend.

it might just be the next episode. Let's hope for it. Let's stay positive as much as possible because that has been a pretty depressing podcast to record and I'm sure it's been a pretty depressing podcast to listen to as well, but this is the reality. Andy, Carl, Laurie, thank you so much for being with us. It feels very hollow to say it again, but Happy New Year to everyone. All the best for 2025. Let's hope for something more positive starting with Anfield this weekend. We'll speak to you after that. Take care. Thanks for listening. Bye-bye.

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.