Nail It Before You Scale It | Ep 245
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Hi, Leila. Hi. Came 16 hours to see you guys. Wow. Looking forward to it. Where from? Australia. See, that's how much I know and how much I've traveled internationally. I'm like, is that 16 hours away? I have so many questions, but one. Okay. If you were to distill it down to a handful of core principles that has had you scale the way that you guys have scaled, what would they be? I mean, your people are a clear winner. I mean, freaking brilliant team.

But other than that. I would boil it down to one saying that I think we came up with, I want to say like five years ago, which is like nail it before you scale it. So I think that a lot of the times what people do is they figure out something that works well one time, they don't get all the kinks out of it, and then they try and scale that.

And so I think that's something that I've done really well is one, I'm not unwilling to jump in there myself first. Anything that's a new initiative in a company, no matter how far beneath my role it may be, like I will jump in there and I will spin it up. I will start up. I will do whatever, right? Because I know that I can trust, I know my level of competency. And so I don't want to risk it being an execution issue. So I'm willing to do a lot of new things from the ground up. That's the first piece to it.

The second piece is that I'm not afraid to, I would say, wade in the pit of pain. So I think that a lot of people, they really want to get out of it and scale it quickly because they're like, well, yeah, I can't be spending my time doing this. No fucking shit. But in order to make sure it's going to work for the long term, we have to be willing to wade in the pain in the short term. And so if that means that I have to be head of a department for six months or eight months or a year or a year and a half to make sure it's done right, then I'll do that until I know that I can

I understand the full scope of a role to then scale it, pass it off to somebody else so that they can duplicate my results without losing quality. A lot of people when they scale, they assume, okay, when I scale things dilute. That means you're scaling wrong. If you really want to scale something correctly, then you know it well enough to scale it with quality. Meaning you can keep the same KPIs as you scale it that you did when maybe you were doing it yourself, you had other people involved. And so

I think that that's probably been an advantage that we've had is I think both Alex and I are willing, there's also two of us, so we can do, each deploy ourselves into something. And now we're at the point where we have a handful of individuals on the team that I know I can trust their competence to deploy them into new things as well. But for the first six years of my career, it was really just me going in

nailing it, then scaling it. And so I think if I had to put it down to like how to scale something, that's what it would be. I think where a lot of people miss out is they try and scale it soon before they really understand the full scope of something and they try and replace themselves too soon.

Like until I can visualize the type of person I need for the role, like I see them clearly. I see their personality. I see what kind of job they might have had. I see I don't know the role well enough to hire the right person. And so that means it's probably not time to scale because I don't fully understand what's needed. And then the likelihood that I scale it well if I hire the wrong person is low. Now you have a team that you allow them to nail it really. You don't have to do it anymore, right, at this point?

Not with everything. There's still things that I need to be involved in. I mean, think about like this, right? Like if something is very difficult to reverse and it has high stakes, then that's what the CEO or the founder should be involved in. Hard to reverse, high stakes. I'm going to go do that, right? But if there are things that are high stakes but easy to reverse...

or maybe they're low to reverse, but also low stakes. It's like, okay, you can deploy other people into them. I would say that I have a handful, meaning two or three people who I do trust to deploy in things that are important and hard to reverse for sure. But it doesn't mean an entire team is of that, right? That's usually like a very, an executive. Thank you for your honesty. Thank you. Yeah, for sure.

Hi Layla, I'm Brandon Avedekian. I sell commercial real estate brokerage and property management services to owners of commercial real estate. We do a million and a half of revenue. I'd like to be at a hundred million in revenue. What's holding me back is I'm the six-armed man.

uh grew too fast didn't know how to run a company and and figuring it out hired a head of operations about three months ago that's helped a lot but i'm still uh i'm dealing with problems day to day and not focusing on what i need to be focusing on so i've got a chief of staff type person uh is that the head of operations no so i'm hiring another

person that starts in January. And I've never had that position before. I have to get it right. Curious what advice you'd have to make sure someone working directly with you as someone running a company, proper expectations and just how to onboard them quickly, get them up to speed quickly so that you can free up your time. I would say that the

I try to, with onboarding, really just spend as much time possible with somebody when they're that new and they're coming into that role. I also would say that a lot of people underestimate how long it would take to get somebody to do all those things for you up to speed. So like, I don't think a role like that will be fully productive for 12 months.

like minimum. You know, when I think about like any like operator I put into place 12 to 18 months for them to like fully take on the role and like really be up to function. I think sometimes if you really want somebody to be like fully functional, it's like two years.

And that's just because it's like if you want it done your way, which usually in a smaller business you have strong preferences and that's okay. So I would say like in the first two weeks I would say like for the most part I would probably like have them set up a desk. Well, are you virtual? No. Okay, so you're in person. Okay, great. Where's their desk compared to yours?

- It'll be close. - I would literally have them next to me. - Yeah. - Yeah, so like something I've observed is that the people who, it doesn't really matter the reporting structure of a company, it's the people who have the closest proximity.

So for me, if I want someone to learn more, then I'm like, how do I get them in more proximity to me? Does that mean, and I mean physically. I want them to absorb, I want them to watch, I want them to see little nuances. And so that's the first thing I would do is have the desk close by. I would say the second thing that I would do is I would probably have a touch base in the morning and in the afternoon with them. So the first...

four weeks, twice a day touch base. And what I would do is I would put them through whatever onboarding is happening throughout the day. And I want to use that time that we have to touch base to basically keep setting expectations and giving context to them. And then also asking them what questions they have based on their interactions throughout the day so that you can answer quickly. So I think the shorter, faster feedback loops you have for onboarding, the better.

And then I would say that allowing that person also to build relationships in that first 30 days with the people that you have the closest relationships to, that's probably gonna be the second most important thing. Them seeing everything you do, first most important thing. Second thing is that the next place this fails is that the team doesn't

like they reject them essentially, right? And so you facilitating relationships with them with the key stakeholders that they are going to need to work with the most, I think is the next most important thing. A lot of leaders that come into companies, the reason that they fail is not because of the skills, but because they don't know how to step in to a leadership role and build those relationships without stepping on people's toes. And so I would really pay attention to making sure that you facilitate those relationships.

And then lastly is I would prepare my team. So a huge area that I would say people like mess up is that when they bring in a leader into an existing role or role that maybe I've been doing, somebody else has been doing, they're like, it's going to be amazing. You're going to love this person. They have so much time. Fuck that. Don't say it. Because no matter what, it's change. I actually literally just got off call with a new leader and I was like, listen, everyone's saying really good things, but I just want you to know in a few weeks they're probably going to tell me bad things.

And I was like, but that's normal. That's what everyone does because they're like, wow, this person's amazing. And they're like, wait, they don't do it like that. And they, we used to do this and this and that. And I'm like, yes, that's change. And so they're just going to think about what they lost rather than what they gained and

But I would set that expectation ahead of time for them. So I like telling teams, I'm like, listen, you're going to like this person at first. And then within two to three months, you're going to be like grumpy about, you know, you find out their pet peeve or you find out like they do this annoying thing. You find out they're not that good at this thing. Like that happens with everybody. Nobody's perfect. And so I would set expectations for the team clearly about the fact that there's going to be change and they're going to feel a sense of loss no matter who steps into the role. So I do those three things. Awesome. Thank you. Absolutely.

So my name is Olivia. We started our business like six months ago and I'm here with my business partner. He's absolutely brilliant at what he does. So he has 18 years of experience and that's what we built the business around. However, he doesn't want to work with the tools and systems the whole team is using, right? He wants to have a lot of creative time and don't want someone to put tasks onto him.

So it makes it difficult to collaborate because we're still very tied to his knowledge. So we're kind of struggling a bit with like, how do I get him to adopt the kind of same systems that the others are using? Or should I even try to do that? But then how do we collaborate?

Yeah, and he's a serial entrepreneur, so I think it's like the kind of ADHD, I can't maintain structure and systems, and that's tricky for him. And then were you an entrepreneur before this, or were you at a job? No, I worked with management at tech companies. Understood, okay. Just understanding both your backgrounds. So, I mean, here's the thing. Neither is right or wrong.

There are companies that run just fine without all the structure and things that I talk about in all my content. I have friends that run them that way. Me and Alex tend to be quite opposite, but I think over time we've learned a lot from each other. I have always told everyone when they're onboarding, I'm like, listen, here's all the systems we use. Here's all the ways we communicate. Here's all of this. Here's the dress code. Here's all this. And by the way, Alex doesn't use any of this or adhere to any of it.

He's gonna be happy with that one. Well, it's both of our company. I can do what I want, he can do what he wants, right? And so like if you guys build a company where he fucking hates that he has to use these systems every day, like he's gonna end up resenting you. And so I think that like a lot of what you're talking about could probably be solved if he had like a proficient EA. You know what I mean? It's like there's other ways to solve a problem other than like we do it my way or your way. It's like, okay, what could bridge the gap in that?

You know what I mean? And so like, you know, for Alex, for example, like he has other people he works with that are responsible for putting things in systems.

I mean, honestly, and I'm at the point now too where like I don't put as many things in systems either because I'm just like, I just voice. I'm like, hey, can you put this in the system? Because now I'm at a place where like I don't have the pace to even like type everything out all the way if someone else do it. So I think I would be looking at it more like how do I get these things into a system? It doesn't need to be him that does it. How could you facilitate it so it makes it easy to get his stuff into a system, right? And I think that a lot of times what happens is that

for people who are maybe the more creative one in the pair to have that kind of structure

At some point, you might find yourself adopting more of it. Right now, you're not doing that. And that's fine. It's preferences. But what happens is that if you try to put the structure on that, any little annoyances or friction, it kills the creativity. And so you just want to think, how do I make it as easy as possible to get these things into the system? Is it an EA? Is it a project manager? What is it? Even if it's like putting a cast on a cut rather than a Band-Aid, I mean, if it makes it so that he likes working with you every day, then I think that that's worth it.

you know what i mean yeah hey how you doing my name is steven with empower solutions number one thank you for all the content you put out it is so tactical and it is to help me and my team a bunch that's um on that you put out some information on values and value first in the company you did a real long form content on that um that made me really realize that

We weren't really clear or we were clear on the values. The company wasn't, it wasn't clear. It wasn't preached enough. It wasn't tied into everything that we did. So we kind of revamped all that. Long story short, one of our key values is growth. We're all about growth and trying to have a growth mindset, everything that we're doing.

From September to now, we're trying to clear out and clean up the people to make sure everyone in the company come 2025 are aligned with our values and other people are gone. So we do have a few people that are good employees, but they don't have goals. And it's like we try to talk to them about their goals. They just show up and they just want to do their job. They do it decently, but it's not even like they want to...

go higher in their career or even level up in what they're doing even further, they just like, eh, I just want to show up and do what I do. And I'm like, is it just normal to have some of those people and we have to accept that we're going to have some of that? Or is it

like, okay, I guess, to be like, you know what? We need to replace these people. And everybody should have this mindset. Is it feasible to have everybody on that level? What's your goal with the company? Like, as far as, like, keep it solid? Yeah, like, what impact do you want to have? Do you have a revenue goal? Do you have a vision of what you want it to look like? Why did you start it? To really...

empower, make a difference in people's lives. It's really, it was the, I was in real estate investing before. Now our company is a marketing company, lead gen for real estate. It was just the next step to go to make an impact, to touch more people in their lives, from the employees to the clients to their clients and so forth. And I have bigger goals to go beyond this company. But it's just, yeah, I don't know. I just really want everything to grow. I want people to grow. Revenue-wise, I want us to go to

gazillion, you know what I yeah, yeah, okay, I understand yeah, I ask you guys like of course you can grow a company with Mediocre people or people who like, you know do that plus two other jobs, you know, that's absolutely possible I truthfully just detests that type of company and Can't stand owning one. So I would say like you can have preferences and

Have a strong preference that I want people on my team to be competitively great I don't like being around people who are mediocre. I want to rub off on me so Like if you feel that way there's nothing wrong with that. It's your company You can build it how you want as long as you abide by morals ethics and laws so in my opinion

If you have people on the team who are decent, right, you do everybody else a disservice who's great by keeping them there. And here's the thing is that culture is not built in easy decisions. Culture is built when you have really hard decisions. You have somebody who's really likable on the team, but you know they're not a good fit. You have somebody who like everybody loves, but you know behind closed doors they're not doing the job and they won't take the feedback.

That's where culture is built. And the thing is, is that in the moments when you have to make those decisions, where you're going to have to make the hard calls, where only you know why that person's not going to be here anymore and everyone's going to look at you and judge you, you just have to know that within three to six months, they're all going to see it's just better without them. And then they're going to be like, I trust them. And so it is going to be a decision that when you make it,

People will judge you for it. People will wonder people will question your authority as a leader And if you're you know, you just mindlessly firing people, right? And you have to know that people probably will take a little more time to trust and watch it pan out But then they're gonna be really grateful when they think like wow How amazing is it that every day get to show up and like everyone here is putting their all in I don't feel resentful of my teammates anymore in fact, I feel like I want to be like them and

And so if you hire any amount of A players and you talk about wanting to grow, you do all of them a disservice and you will eventually lose them if you keep the others. And I will say this, which is like, nobody talks about firing people who just like steal and lie. Cause that's easy. It's just like, duh, bye. Right? Like the reason that we talk about firing is cause like, it's often very difficult decisions where it's like, you know, I thought this person exemplified the values, but now they're in here and like, it's not like they're a bad person. In fact, I actually like them. I actually like talking to them.

but they're just like mediocre. And so like, maybe you should just go work somewhere else. And so those are the hard decisions and also the ones that shape the culture the most. Thank you. I just wanted that to have that affirmation that is acceptable, not really acceptable, but that it is possible to have everybody be on that same mindset.

Thought maybe that's just like you know it is it the difficulty is that most people one? People a lot of people say that they want to grow and then they join a company where growth is a priority and then They're like wow this is really hard and uncomfortable no fucking shit, right?

That's the first one. So they don't actually know what they want, right? They say they want all these things, but they don't. They want the glitz and the glamour and the outcome. They don't want the work that comes with it. That's the first thing. So then you're going to have that issue, which is like those people work their way in because people can show up different to interviews. So you're going to have to just quickly get people out. I just try as fast as possible. Like the moment I see it, I'm like, oh, fuck. And then I'm like, all right, got to get them out as quick as possible. Because like, I don't want to wait any longer to like let the mediocrity settle in and piss off the people who actually want to stay here.

And I would say like on the other side, it's just like oftentimes we're blinded by likeness.

Lots of people are very likable and that's a strategy because it works for most people in life. If you're likable, you can get away with a lot more stuff. If people don't like you, then you might be good at stuff and people don't just want you gone because you're just unpleasant. And so like being likable is a strategy and there's a lot of people in the workplace that I see they will do something and then they act very likable for a while because they want people to guess what? If you're likable and you're liked by many and loved by lots of people in the company, you often don't get let go. But in a high performance company, sometimes those are the people you have to let go of the most.

Gotcha. One quick follow-up, recruiting-wise, like you said, some people are going to get through the door. Any tips on what to do during that hiring, interviewing process to try to filter out? Because so many people do say, oh, yeah, I do want to grow. And I love that you put that in your job description in your ad. Oh, that's why I align with that. But then they get in and like you said, like the reality of it. Sitting there typing with their Cheeto fingers. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm sorry, I just like imagine mediocrity of just like eating cheetos at the keyboard, just like doing laundry while I work, like behind the doors, like not actually working. Yeah, so the process that Frank outlined, or I'm sorry, Sarah outlined yesterday, the who, that's literally what we do. Like, that's the process that I follow. That's the process that's worked for me. We probably do more interviews than most companies. But I think it one, it provides a lot of continuity for candidates, like they really see who's on the team.

And we get to really test those values because we operationalize them. It's asking questions that align with, it's not asking like, are you honest? Yeah, I'm honest. It's like, okay, let me ask for a situation recently in which you're honest. And if they pause and they have no details, then the likelihood that is true is low.

You know, like it's super easy in interviews to tell if somebody's bullshitting you or not when you ask them like reference questions about situations. Because if there's no details and they take a long time that don't really answer the question, they said a whole lot of nothing. And it's like, it's probably just BS. It's like, it's going to take reps. Gotcha. Appreciate it. Thank you. Absolutely.

Hey Layla, I'm from Augusta, Georgia. We own an automotive repair business. I just graduated college about four months ago. I'm joining the family business, fourth generation. Wow, that's cool. My question is, being 22 years old, what do you think will set me up for when I get 30, 35, whatever, will set me up for success of having the skills to be in the business world and own a very large company?

Yeah, I got into business when I was 22, so that's an interesting question. Honestly, I think that I just, I think that a lot of people, especially nowadays, they're a lot more concerned with looking like they're good at doing business rather than being good at business. And for the first eight years of my career, I just focused on being good at business and learning the game. So like,

All the other stuff you see, I mean, even just like, you know, doing speaking or taking side gigs or little businesses or social media, it's like I would just lock in and just get really fucking good at business and then look up and be like, OK, now what? Because like the one thing that you can't fake is skills and you can't fake proof.

you know what i mean like if you build a really good business like what like really think about it right it's like um people like how do i build my brand i'm like i don't know like what did howard schultz have to do to build his brand he built starbucks you know what i mean like he didn't go out there and be like where do i get on tick tock he was like starbucks you know and it's really just like um i can't remember if it was the rocker or unfortunately that said this but it's like um do epic stuff and tell people about it and so like you're in the phase where it's like do epic stuff

and then you can tell people about it. And like epic stuff is always epic. So I would say like put blinders on, focus. And you know, it's funny, but like people,

And people poo-poo on me. They're like, oh, you wasted your 20s, like, working. Or, like, you missed out on life. And I'm like, well, but our prime working years were, like, our 25 to 45, really. Or 20 to 40. I can't remember one of those. So it's like, you actually do start to run out of energy. I can tell you that myself. Like, you're like, whoa, when I was 20 or when I was 25, like, the amount of energy I had, like, I'm really grateful I capitalized on it. And, like, I would never, I don't regret that at all because I think I've matured.

than I would have if I had not done that. And so I think just lock in, focus on being good at business. Don't focus on looking like you're good at business. And also probably don't do stuff your friends are doing. And that's probably the hardest thing at that point is like everyone your age, most people are doing other stuff. They get really distracted. They've got like six things going on. They, you know, there's doing stuff on like who knows what they're doing, right? You know, partying, doing this, being distracted. It's like, just lock in.

And a few years of just locking in will yield you so much more than like... But the thing is, locking in doesn't feel good because it's lonely. People judge you and everyone wants you to fail so that they can prove themselves right that greatness is not achievable and that you shouldn't even try. And so just prepare to be judged and not have as many friends, but you will have more respect for yourself than pretty much anybody else around you. And I think that's worth a lot more. Absolutely. Thank you. Of course.